WEBVTT - TOM's Talks | John Feinstein 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.640 This podcast is part of the seventy Sixers podcast network 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:08.400 search seventy sixers podcast Wherever you get your Pots. On 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.440 this week's edition of Tom's Talks, we hear from author 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.120 John Feinstein, a well respected writer for years with The 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.800 Washington Post. Finestein came to national prominence in the mid 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.159 eighties with his New York Times bestseller A Season on 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.400 the Brink. During the early weeks of the NBA hiatus, 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.360 I found myself reading one of John's books about college 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.680 basketball in the Patriot League, The Last Amateurs, and that 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.640 was from twenty years ago. In addition, John has been 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.080 put in out daily anecdotes from his long career on 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.240 social media. That's what prompted me to reach out to John. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:45.960 Here's our conversation. Welcome to another edition of Tom's Talks 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.440 and a great treat. Today we're joined by the author 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:53.640 John Feinstein, authored thirty five books, longtime columnists in Washington 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.040 with The Post and John a great treat. How are 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.400 you doing during this most unusual time? Well, Tom, first 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.680 of all, thanks for having me. Overall, we're doing very well. 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:06.200 Although it's raining here and looks like it's going to 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:08.440 rain all day, which my nine year old daughter will 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:14.080 be very unhappy about. But I have a new young 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.520 adult mystery coming out in What's Today The Two Weeks. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.600 I started writing them about fifteen years ago. They're all 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:26.280 in sports settings. Obviously, interestingly, most of them are set 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:32.520 in Philadelphia and involved kids from Philadelphia. And the reason 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:36.840 for that is Philly's my favorite sports town. And I'm 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.360 not saying that because I'm on with you. I've written 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.960 that for years. I love the Pileester more than any 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:46.800 arena in college basketball. I love the fact that Washington fans, 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.480 who are the greatest front runners in history, look down 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.320 at Philly fans, who are actually sports fans. They support 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.680 their teams win or lose. So this book is set 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.880 in Philadelphia. It's called Game Changers. It involves a couple 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.800 of sixth graders, both playing basketball, one on the boys 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.080 team at school, one on the girls team, and they're 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.000 good friends. They run into different issues. It's the second 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.880 in the series. The first one was a soccer setting 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.280 and the girl was being denied the chance to play 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.239 on the boys team, which still does happen in twenty 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:23.480 twenty on occasion, as we know. And nonfiction, I'm working 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.760 on a book about race in Sports, which I actually 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.000 started about eight months ago, right at the start of 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:35.000 this year. I've always thought that race is the elephant 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.280 in the room in sports and in our society, and 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.799 we've certainly seen that since May twenty fifth. I had 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.360 no idea that tragedy was going to occur when I 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.320 started the book, but the pandemic has sort of set 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.880 my recording back a little bit. But I've been able to, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.560 you know, do zoom interviews with people in phone interviews, 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.440 and I hope to get back out sometime in the 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.120 not too distant future to continue the reporting because I 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.480 think for me it's a very important book. Absolutely, I 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:06.680 want to get back into the children's books at a moment. 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:08.720 But let's pick up on that, and I guess the 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.560 line would be, what's a takeaway? But in the fact 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.840 that you're still writing the book on race and sports's 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.480 what's a theme? Like? What spurred that idea for you? 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.280 And what should we know as we get ready for 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.840 this book to be published down the road. Well, that's 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:28.000 a good question. What what spurred me really was being 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:32.720 around sports and race since the seventh grade, when I 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.360 was the only white guy on an all black back 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.520 then we said black junior high school basketball team. And 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:44.040 I learned then from my teammates how different their lives 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.600 were from mine, because I wasn't walking in their shoes. 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:52.920 And I've sort of tracked that throughout my reporting career, 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:56.480 but a couple of things really spurred it. You might 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.440 remember when Donovan McNabb came here to Washington, there was 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.320 an incident where Mike Shanahan yanked him late from a 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.800 game in Detroit midway through that season. He'd taken every 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:11.280 snap and Rex Grossman came in fumbled on the first 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.320 play and that Donoican Sue picked the ball up, ran 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.320 into the end zone. Game over. But Shanahan, rather than saying, 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.120 you know, I had a gut feeling about Rex or 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.360 Donovan wasn't playing very well, which he wasn't that day, 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.400 came out with this weird thing about, well, I didn't 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.400 know if Donovan was in good enough shape to run 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:31.240 back to back plays. It's an eleven year NFL veteran. 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.320 Then the next day he said, well, I didn't know 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:40.360 if Donovan knew our two minute drill well enough. And 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.160 then the following week there was an anonymous story one 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.760 of those infamous anonymous Stories of Today's World on the 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.080 ESPN that Mike and Kyle Shanahan had to cut their 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:55.160 playbook in half for Donovan when he got there guy 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:58.400 quarterback the team into the Super Bowl. I don't think 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.440 I had that wrong. And I went on television the 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.440 next day and I attacked the Shanahans and I said 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.960 that this was racial coding. That's what the words I used. 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.680 And we're going back to the sixties and seventies, when 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.880 the stereotype was that Blacks weren't smart enough to play quarterback, 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.800 weren't the leaders to play quarterback, weren't in shape a 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.760 lot of the time. I mean it was so anyway, 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.640 long story short, I was attacked in the local media 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.400 and by some of the national media, and it stuck 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.560 with me that here we are in twenty ten at 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:39.160 the time, and people are still trying to stereotype African 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.800 American quarterbacks. You remember the Rush Limbaugh incident back in 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.560 two thousand and three right there in Philly, And so 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:47.440 that stuck with me. And then when I was I 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:49.720 did a book on playing quarterback in the NFL three 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.080 years ago, and one of the guys I worked with 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.360 was Doug Williams, who, as you know, was the first 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.040 African American to win a Super Bowl as a quarterback. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.400 And when the draft happened that year, a couple of 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:05.039 days later, I said to Doug, if the Shaun Watson 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.560 and Patrick Mahomes were white, where would they have gone 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:10.520 in the draft. Doug is one of the bright guys 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.839 I've ever met in sports. People miss it sometimes because 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.039 it's got a big Southern accent and we stereotype that too. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.560 And he looked at me and he said, before Trubisky. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.720 And I said, Trubisky went second, and he said exactly. 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:25.760 And then, of course, the next year was the whole 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.280 Lamar Jackson fin where all the experts wanted to move 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.440 him to wide receiver or running back, and we know 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.599 how that worked out. Four white guys drafted in the 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.160 top ten that year. Lamar didn't go to the last 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:38.680 pick of the first round. And what it took an 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.919 African American general manager, as he knew, some him to 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.760 take him. So all of that stuck in my head. 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.640 I've known John Thompson, the great Georgetown coach, for years. 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.520 We've discussed this issue, and I always wanted to do 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.640 the book, and I finally found a publisher. Five publishers 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.159 turned down this idea, which I take as a good 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.520 sign because five publishers turned down Season on the Brink. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:04.120 So I finally found a publisher willing to pay me 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.440 to do the book, and I've been working on it 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.240 ever since. Now. I don't know. I mean, I know 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.000 a little bit about the book industry. My late departed 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.400 brother was an editor in New York for a number 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:18.160 of houses. But John Feinstein doesn't have the same publisher 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.000 for each and every one of his books. Well, no, 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.320 although I have had publishers long term. My first book 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.440 was published by McMillan. My advanced Season on the Brink 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.080 was seventeen thousand, five hundred dollars. After the success of 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.520 Season on the Brink, there was, I'm happy to say, 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.680 a bidding war for my second book, and as it 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.120 turned out, Random House came in with the highest bid. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.560 I knew the editor who was bidding on the book, 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.280 so I was happy to go there. I stayed there 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.800 for a while. There was a change at the top 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.400 of Random House, so I moved a little Brown, stayed 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.480 a little Brown for I don't know fifteen books, and 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.400 then ended up at Double Day for a while, and 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.600 now I'm back with Little Brown, with the guy who 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:01.800 was my editor for years and years there. So it 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:06.120 actually worked out very well. But writers do move around because, 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:15.200 especially nowadays, because publishers are just scared to death to 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:20.440 spend money on anything that isn't Danielle Steele or John Grisham, 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.679 and even Daniel Steele and John Grisham are making less 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.520 in this climate. But it's not as if I can't 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.600 get a contract. It's just that in the old days, 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.320 for example, I'll stop in a minute. But when I 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.840 wanted to do Civil War, which was my book on 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.680 the Army Navy rivalry, my editor was very skeptical. My 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.200 agent was very skeptical. There was no one famous in 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.240 the book. Army and Navy don't compete for national championships anymore. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.760 And I just said, look, I want to do it, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.520 and they said, look, we trust you. Go ahead and 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:55.360 do it. Nowadays, no matter what the book is, the 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.240 editor has to go to the sales staff and get 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:03.040 the sales staffs approval. And the sales staff always said, 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.400 once comps comparable books, so they can look it up 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.319 and see how they sold. Well. What I always say 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.760 is a Salespeople don't know what makes a good story 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:16.080 number one and number two. If they've been looking for 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.320 comps for Season on the Brink or a good walk spoiled, 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.280 those books never would have been published. That's right. But 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.440 that's what it's like today. Well, I'll say this on 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.720 behalf of so many of us, that your brand is 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.440 like a good wine, no matter what the vintage. You 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:34.280 pull it off the shelf and you know you're going 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.079 to get a good read. You're so good at telling 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.360 stories like that Army Navy book that you spoke of. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.320 You know you're able to spend time with these young people, 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.800 and you know, part of the reason we're visiting is 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.439 this summer I was reading The Last Amateurs and that 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.000 stories from twenty years ago about the Patriot, and clearly 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.160 as a basketball book, so I'm interested, but I'm reading 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.040 about kids that went to Bucknell, and whether I pick 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.920 it up four days later or whatever, it's still interesting. 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.679 So I mean that in the most complimentary ways, and 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.679 you're able to visit that you're telling human stories and that, 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.319 in part is what makes it compelling. Well, Tom, I 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.600 appreciate that. And The Last Amateurs is another book that 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.800 my editor and my agent didn't want me to do 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.680 and it ended up on the best seller list, and 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:19.720 as you said, I think it still holds up pretty 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.440 well today, and it was great fun to do, to 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:24.760 say the least. I mean a lot of times, this 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:29.200 book that I'm working on, the Black Athletes in Sports book, 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:32.600 isn't for fun. It's because I think it's important. But 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:34.720 sometimes I do a book because I think it'll be fun. 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.520 My last nonfiction book, The Back Roads to March, was 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.840 basically me going to all every mid major I could 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.120 think of and picking my spots and writing about kids 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.839 who play for the love of the game. Cliche though 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.719 it might be, and that was pure joy that that 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.920 book was just pure joy from start to finish. I 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.400 loved every second of it. Other books are are more work, 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:03.480 but I always try to think is this a story? 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.480 Because you're right, I think of myself as a storyteller. 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.199 And I was talking to some people recently and they 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.960 were talking about how to promote something I've been working on, 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.719 and well, should we focus on basketball or should we 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:18.680 focus on golf? And I should you don't focus on 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:23.600 a sport because what I do is I try to 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.240 tell stories about people who happen to be in sports, 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.760 and it doesn't matter whether they're basketball players or coaches, golfers, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.360 tennis players, baseball players, football players. I've written about all 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:39.360 of them at some point, and my approach always I 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.760 learned this from Bob Woodward when I worked for him 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.680 on the metro staff at the Washington Post. He once 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.720 sent me that I was a night police reporter and 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:50.960 I wrote a three paragraph story one night about a 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:55.000 car crash in northeast Washington, and I came in the 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.160 next morning. Nobody died. That's why it was only three paragraphs. Unfortunately, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.480 that's the way news is. But I came in the 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.440 next morning and he said to me there might be 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:07.040 a really good story there. And I said, what do 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:08.760 you mean. He said, why don't you go to the 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.679 hospital talk to the three people in the accident and 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.000 find out exactly what was going on in their lives 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.680 at three o'clock this morning. So I did. In those days, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.560 you could just walk into a hospital and say I'm 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:22.640 looking for John Feinstein and they'd say he's in room 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.480 six ten. And I did, and as it turned out, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.439 the couple that had been hit when the other car 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.760 crossed the median they were holding hands in praying because 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:35.960 they just found out a few hours earlier that she 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.200 was pregnant with their first child. He worked a night shift, 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.160 and they were driving to Baltimore to let their parents 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.679 know that they were going to be grandparents. And the 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.400 guy who hit them was a Howard University law student 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.400 who had been pulling an all nighter to study for 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.760 an exam and was driving home to take a shower 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.040 and get a couple hours sleep before the test at 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.600 eight am, and fell asleep at the wheel. Story ended 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.800 up on page one, And what Bob said to me 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.880 after that was, you don't have to be rich and famous, 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.920 John to have a story to tell. And I've sort 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.640 of carried that with me forever. Whether it was a 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.280 Civil War, the Last Amateurs, my book on PGA tour 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.360 Q School, my book on minor league baseball, all these 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:23.320 guys have stories to tell. And I think, honestly, the 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.360 most boring person on the PGA tourist Tiger Woods, except 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.080 when he's playing golf, because he's the greatest golfer of 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.160 all time. I'll due respect to Jack Nicholas, but when 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:37.120 he gets outside the ropes and starts spewing cliches. I 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.760 have no interest. I want to watch him play golf. 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.280 I don't want to hear him talk because he's not 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.400 going to say anything. We'll have more of my conversation 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:49.400 with John Feinstein after this. In this time of social distancing, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.640 Nova Care Rehabilitation is offering physical therapy from the comfort 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.760 and safety of your home. Through their new tel a 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:01.520 Rehab program. Novacare will virtually bring their services to you 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.160 so you may heal, build strength, and get back to 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.320 the things you love. Tell a rehab let you easily 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.120 connect with one of Novacare's licensed therapists through web based 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:16.559 technology that is hippo compliant. For more information, visit novacare 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.560 dot com. Now back to my chat with John Feinstein. 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.800 You've touched on like ten things I want to speak 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:27.360 to you about, including the Post and Woodward and Ben 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.160 Bradley and all that. But you said recently on Twitter 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.760 that you know, and you've done so much with NPR 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.680 and radio and all these television appear, the Golf Channel, 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:41.200 all that stuff, but your most favorite thing is the books. 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.120 And I know why because I mean the other you 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.320 have deadline, certainly, but you have you know, people telling 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.120 you and like you said, they're trying to form this 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.440 opinion with the books. It's your idea. It's organic. You're 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.240 chasing down these stories. You probably certainly back in the day, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.320 we're able to, as you say, just drive around the 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.920 back roads. Is that part of the appeal and uncovering 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.240 and telling these people's stories. Yeah, you know. I when 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.480 I was first at the post, my reputation was as 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.760 somebody who always wrote too long. I was good on deadline, 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.280 I could write fast. But I covered a Davis Cup 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.600 final in nineteen eighty one, which was decided in the 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:25.400 final match John McEnroe versus Louis. No, it wasn't Saint Louis. 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.320 It was Cincinnati. That was the famous vel under match 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.280 that you're referencing. But mcinroe played Jose Louis Clerk for 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.280 the Davis Cup one in five sets. It was great 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.800 stuff and McEnroe and Clark belling at each other. And 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.840 I called the desk. It was a Sunday, and I 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.240 said how much space have I gotten? And the editor, 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.760 a very good guy named George Minett, said twenty four inches, 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.840 which was pretty standard for game story. And I said, George, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.240 I can't write this in twenty four inches. There's no way, 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.680 it's too dramatic. I said, I need at least forty 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.400 and he said, that's fine, go ahead and write forty. 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.400 We'll use the best twenty four. And that was kind 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:04.840 of the story of my newspaper career and still is 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:09.000 to this day. But the best thing about writing books 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.200 was A. I had no space limitations and b I 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.560 really had the time to earn the trust of the 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.560 people I was writing about and to be able to go. 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.720 When I went to do Season on the Brink, I 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.720 had lunch with Woodward, who's been a mentor of mine 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.400 as you can tell, for most of forty years, and 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.720 Bob said, when you get back, if you've done your job, 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.880 you should be able to write from inside Bob Knight's head. 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.600 You should be able to say to the reader, I 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.200 know what he was thinking at this moment when he 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.200 said this, or did this, or took this particular action 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.920 in practice or a game, whatever. And I've always kind 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:53.760 of used that as a watchword for my reporting, and 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:55.800 it worked out pretty well in Season on the Brink, 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.360 as you know, and I've tried to do that, and 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.240 to me, the thing I love about the books. The 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.400 other thing what Ward said to me was your goal 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.440 when you write a book should be to know more 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:11.040 about the subject than anybody on earth. You won't, but 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.600 the closer you come, the better the book will be. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.560 And that's the books have given me the opportunity to 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.400 really try to climb inside the minds of a lot 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.200 of people in sports, some very famous and some not famous. 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.760 One thing that in your role as a newspaperman and 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.440 a calumnist, and it reminds me of the late Phil Jasner, 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:35.240 who covered the Sixers for so wonderful yep, great man 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.639 for the Philadelphia Daily means. I used to joke that, 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.520 you know, I followed I followed the Sixers through Phil 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.240 so during the summer. But Phil had and this was 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.040 clever and it was smart. But after a player was available, 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.280 even a coach, he would then pull them aside. No, 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.880 he was getting like one little thing for his story. 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:56.840 It was a separate, one on one. And the reason 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.480 I bring it up is because you're afforded this opportunity, 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.480 certainly as an author in the books, as you say, 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.040 with the luxury of time, and to make the relationship. 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.719 In my role, I'm the seventy six Ers play by 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.760 play announcer and players are made available and we all 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.040 go to the scrum, if you will. But for the 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.920 most part, I'm trying to give them space. I get 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.920 to know players quite frankly more when their players when 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.240 their careers are done and they see me in a 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.400 hallway and they're like, ah, and then we relive all 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.000 the times and I kind of ord that I did. 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.240 But as a writer, and even today, like somebody will 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.800 make a request of the PR department and then they 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:33.400 get to sit down with the guy I'm doing. Get 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:34.760 me wrong, I get the one on one every now 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.359 and then. But you guys, really and that's to become 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.960 best friends with Davis Love and you mentioned Doug Williams. 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.240 That's almost like a little There are certain advantages, certainly 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.439 of being with the team, but that's something as a 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:47.640 writer that you guys have been able to employ over 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:52.200 the years. Correct. Yeah, absolutely, you know. I never ask 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.879 a question in a press conference for two reasons. One 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.199 because if I do, if it's a good question and 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.440 it gets good answer, I'm sharing it with the room 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.240 and I'm selfish. And also, I know, especially at this 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.280 point in my career, when I've been around for a while, 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.120 I can probably get to the guy alone in the hallway, 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.399 like you said, after he comes off the podium, and 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.719 ask that question one on one and get the answer 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.080 and have the answer be exclusive to me. Now, obviously 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.639 in the books it's different because I have long sitdowns 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.200 with people you mentioned Davis loved. When I started working 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.399 on A Good Walk Spoiled, I had just done a 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:32.880 tennis book, and tennis players are the least accessible athletes 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.479 in the world, partly because of the rules in tennis 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.879 where we can't go in locker rooms or even player 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.639 lounges most of the time, but also because they become 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.879 stars so young and they're taught you don't need the 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.480 print media. I still remember talking to Bill Shelton, the 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.480 late Bill Shelton, who was Andre Agassi's agent, and I 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:53.480 was Agasy at that point in his life, was a 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:56.080 rising young star and never did anything with the media 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.560 other than required post match press conferences. And I said, 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:04.000 with all money Andrea is making from selling product to 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.440 the public, doesn't he owe the public more than ten 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.560 minute post match press conferences. And Bill Shelton said to me, 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.360 we reached the public through our commercials, and I think 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.880 that's the approach. That's the approach Tiger Woods has certainly 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:19.920 taken through the years. He had the reputation as being 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.720 the boy next door right through the commercials until we 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.720 found out different. So it can be a struggle. But 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.520 with the books, as I said, I get to sit 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:32.680 down with guys for a great at great length. When 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:34.879 I first Davis Love was my first interview on A 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.560 Good Walk Spoiled and I was coming off the tennis 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.159 book where everything was a tooth pull, and we were 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.000 about two hours into the interview and I said to him, 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.000 how you sat on time? And David said, well, you 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:47.879 said you were writing a book. So I just blocked 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:49.440 off the whole afternoon and I said, oh my god, 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.199 I've died and gone to heaven. And that's the way 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:54.320 Good Walk Spoiled was. Most of the players were just 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.080 unbelievably cooperative. It's not the same now the agents are 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.879 more involved. It's tough. When I did my book on 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.119 the Ryder Cup a few years ago, the first major 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.359 some of the well, the best example is Ricky Fowler, 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.879 who's a great kit terrific hit. His agent is three 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.240 of the worst people I've ever met, not one three, 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.800 and he kept telling me Ricky has never done an 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.200 interview longer than thirty minutes and he's not going to 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.720 start now. And I kept saying, Sam, there's a first 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:28.560 for everything. You know why, and because that's the way 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:30.479 it is, you know, because he was the agent, he 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.159 was in control. Right when I finally got to sit 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.800