Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, I took a trip to the
Speaker 1: eastern side of Beijing to an area called Choya. This
Speaker 1: part of the city is full of skate shops, fashion boutiques,
Speaker 1: and buildings under construction. Of course, there's always construction in Beijing.
Speaker 1: I was there to visit the office of Blue Wood,
Speaker 1: a hugely popular social network for gay men, and to
Speaker 1: meet the foundered Gungli in person. He's a bit surprising.
Speaker 1: He's forty one. He's got a close crop haircut, wearing
Speaker 1: a Nike branded Just Do a T shirt and dark
Speaker 1: navy blue sweatpants. He really does not look like a
Speaker 1: tech bro or an LGBT icon. If anything, he reminds
Speaker 1: me a bit of my suburban uncle. Gungla is probably
Speaker 1: the most famous gay man in China now, but not
Speaker 1: that long ago. He wasn't openly gay. He was a
Speaker 1: police officer married to a woman. So yes, Gangla is
Speaker 1: definitely surprising. In China, gay rights are non existent, and
Speaker 1: under President Shi jing Ping there's been a crackdown on
Speaker 1: civil so sciety, public expression, and human rights in general.
Speaker 1: Even so, Blood has been able to thrive by tapping
Speaker 1: the LGBT community as a market in just a few years,
Speaker 1: Blood has attracted forty million users that rivals Grinder, one
Speaker 1: of the earliest gay dating apps, and Blood is preparing
Speaker 1: to I p O. When I sat down with gung Lea,
Speaker 1: he told me that the biggest difference between Blood and
Speaker 1: other companies is its ideals and beliefs. He wants to
Speaker 1: showcase of Chinese company diligently serving the LGBT community, showing
Speaker 1: that they can do things with value and philanthropy. Gungla's
Speaker 1: latest venture puts this philosophy to the test. It's called
Speaker 1: Blue Baby, a service to help gay men who want
Speaker 1: to have babies by surrogate overseas. Surrogacy is technically illegal
Speaker 1: in China, but there's growing demand for it anyway. You
Speaker 1: can see that in places where it is legal, like California,
Speaker 1: where more and more straight Chinese couples have gone for surrogacy.
Speaker 1: Blood now wants to help its clients do the same thing.
Speaker 1: Running almost any business in China requires navigating a lot
Speaker 1: of uncertainty. For Blood, the risk is even more acute.
Speaker 1: If it wants to grow, it's got to push the
Speaker 1: frontiers of what's possible and acceptable for the LGBT community
Speaker 1: in China. Which still faces a lot of stigma and prejudice.
Speaker 1: China is a country where there's no gay marriage and
Speaker 1: a gay couple can't adopt a child. So Blood is
Speaker 1: testing the government's tolerance for something quite new, gay families.
Speaker 1: I'm Pa Gadkari, I'm David Ramley, and I'm done Lawrence.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Decrypted. For most of his life, gang
Speaker 1: La was known as Ma Bauli. He was a veteran
Speaker 1: police officer in Herbe Province, which is outside Beijing, and
Speaker 1: he was married to a woman, but online he was
Speaker 1: someone else. He used the alias Gangler to live a
Speaker 1: parallel life as a gay man and an internet entrepreneur.
Speaker 1: He started a website called dan Land, which became an
Speaker 1: important hub for the LGBT community in China, and he
Speaker 1: juggled these two careers for more than a decade, rising
Speaker 1: through the ranks of the police as Mar Bauli whilst
Speaker 1: expanding the website as dun Low, and then in his
Speaker 1: police superiors discovered what he'd been doing here, making a
Speaker 1: bottle the whole Kant. He talked to me about what
Speaker 1: a difficult period that was. He said that when local
Speaker 1: media outed him as the developer of the service. He
Speaker 1: was forced to choose between shutting it down or leaving
Speaker 1: the force. He chose the ladder, horrifying his parents in
Speaker 1: a country where stable government jobs are highly prized. Things
Speaker 1: got even worse when they checked out his business and
Speaker 1: they realized he was gay. He said. The shock made
Speaker 1: his mother so ill he had to return home and
Speaker 1: look after her. Of course, this was also the end
Speaker 1: of his marriage. Despite all that, Gungla doubled down on
Speaker 1: his online venture and threw himself into launching Blued, an
Speaker 1: app for the Chinese gay community. It was late two
Speaker 1: thousand twelve. Like other dating apps, Blue used Geel location
Speaker 1: to help man find dates and connect with friends. Gunglas
Speaker 1: timing was good. After all, this was the smartphone boom,
Speaker 1: when mobile use and access to the Internet was exploding
Speaker 1: and investors were eager to find the next ten cent
Speaker 1: or by do. One of those investors was David Chow
Speaker 1: at the firm d c M. He'd spotted Blued. D
Speaker 1: c M had already backed other Chinese social media companies,
Speaker 1: and David thought the LGBT community was a huge potential market.
Speaker 1: In the United States, about one out of ten people,
Speaker 1: or ten percent or lgbteam members um and of course
Speaker 1: in China, that would imply if it gets through the
Speaker 1: US levels in the future, that would imply a hundred
Speaker 1: and four million people. So you know, the LGBT market
Speaker 1: in China in the future could be larger than the
Speaker 1: entire population of Japan nowhere near that. Many people identify
Speaker 1: themselves openly as gay in China now, and it's obviously
Speaker 1: hard to know or measure what percentage of any population
Speaker 1: is gay, or is openly gay or might be gay.
Speaker 1: But investors like David also see extra potential in gay
Speaker 1: consumers in China, at least because they tend to have
Speaker 1: more spending power than the average in part because they
Speaker 1: don't have children. That's the promise of the so called
Speaker 1: pink economy. We expect it to grow into high single
Speaker 1: digits over the next five to ten years, and and
Speaker 1: hence you know, you have a large enough community to
Speaker 1: UM support an entire economy of its own. That potential
Speaker 1: is starting to become a reality, and BLUED has played
Speaker 1: a big role. It's most popular function is video broadcasts,
Speaker 1: where uses live stream to their followers, who can send
Speaker 1: virtual gifts and money. Blood gets a cut of these
Speaker 1: virtual payments, and it also runs regular ads in the
Speaker 1: app with millions of people signing up. The gay community
Speaker 1: has become more visible in China. There is a growing
Speaker 1: movement and there are more and more spaces where people
Speaker 1: can can be out in China. That's Darius long Aino,
Speaker 1: a senior fellow at the Paul Thai China Center, part
Speaker 1: of the Law School. Darius studies LGBT issues and legal
Speaker 1: reform in China, and I wanted to talk to him
Speaker 1: about how Blood fits into the broader context of gay rights,
Speaker 1: even if they're from remote places, places on the countryside,
Speaker 1: third tier cities where you know, ten fifteen years ago
Speaker 1: really hard to find your community, but through Blood it's
Speaker 1: much easier now. So there's a growing connected community that
Speaker 1: has higher visibility in society and even advocacy organizations that
Speaker 1: are starting to advocate for the community and the movement.
Speaker 1: As optimistic as that sounds, that us still a lot
Speaker 1: of risks involved for anyone and any business associated with
Speaker 1: the LGBT community. Blued is carving out a market that
Speaker 1: hasn't existed in the past, at least partly because of
Speaker 1: intense stigma around being gay in China. There are no
Speaker 1: explicit legal protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation, and
Speaker 1: there's also no gay marriage and no civil partnership for
Speaker 1: same sex couples, and the government has become less tolerant
Speaker 1: of demands for civil rights of any kind in recent years.
Speaker 1: I don't think in many advocates in China do not
Speaker 1: think the government is targeting LGBT issues per se, but
Speaker 1: they're wary of any form of organization where people are
Speaker 1: finding each other and trying to create movements. Someone who
Speaker 1: has experienced this personally is Ryan Law. He lives in
Speaker 1: Guangjo in southern China and works for an NGO focused
Speaker 1: on LGBT health. I met him recently in New York.
Speaker 1: He described what the spheres like right now. At the
Speaker 1: beginning of twenties seventeen, the whole uh, you know, services
Speaker 1: not only old, but the whole cervice society situation got
Speaker 1: you know, a whole lot of worse in China. So
Speaker 1: the kind of director you know, impact of that is
Speaker 1: a you know a lot of events like openly gathering
Speaker 1: events we cannot do like we A lot of our
Speaker 1: events can shut down. But why why would your events
Speaker 1: get shut down? Because any kind of group event gets
Speaker 1: shut down. You know, they just don't want you to
Speaker 1: kind of get together and you know, try to come
Speaker 1: up with something and you know, to advocate or you know,
Speaker 1: do things together, I think, but especially LGBT things right now,
Speaker 1: I think Ryan says he still sees room to move
Speaker 1: things forward, but he and his colleagues have been getting
Speaker 1: more visits from the police and are more careful now
Speaker 1: about how they communicate and what they do in public,
Speaker 1: like very very seriously careful. Even you know, we stopped
Speaker 1: the talking things on way chair. We all moved to
Speaker 1: a signal, even if only a little bit sensitivele we
Speaker 1: go to Gmail. Yeah, just think this kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And also, you know, like our events, our poster, we
Speaker 1: don't put our logo anymore. Because we put our logo,
Speaker 1: then you know it will go shut down. It's not
Speaker 1: always easy to predict where the line is that you
Speaker 1: shouldn't cross. For example, a dating app for lesbians called
Speaker 1: La got shut down in seventeen over an event in Shanghai. First,
Speaker 1: you have to know that Shanghai has a weekly wedding
Speaker 1: market in a park where parents come to mingle and
Speaker 1: find husbands and wives for their single adult children. RelA
Speaker 1: helped organize a group of parents whose children are gay,
Speaker 1: but a few days after they went to the wedding market,
Speaker 1: the app got shut down. It disappeared from app stores
Speaker 1: and from social media, although it has since relaunched. Darius,
Speaker 1: the Yale researcher, says that initially the government was just
Speaker 1: as weary of Blood, but Dana was a former civil
Speaker 1: servant and he knows how official dome works in China.
Speaker 1: He's been very smart about smoothing the way pool ctically
Speaker 1: for his business. Blood had successfully sold itself as like
Speaker 1: a up and coming tech darling to to the government
Speaker 1: example of indigenous Chinese innovation. It's an example of success
Speaker 1: for Chinese enterprise. Blood isn't exceptional in this respect. All
Speaker 1: large companies in China need to stay on the government's
Speaker 1: good side, so it's normal for companies to foster relationships
Speaker 1: with officials. But Blood has been especially assiduous according the government,
Speaker 1: in part by stepping lightly and avoiding public scrums. For example,
Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen, the government issued rules that banned
Speaker 1: depictions of so called abnormal sexual behavior on Chinese television,
Speaker 1: which included homosexuality. The next year, a government affiliated group
Speaker 1: issued similar rules for online content. Some major platforms reacted
Speaker 1: by banning gay themed content altogether, causing uproar in the
Speaker 1: LGBT community. Instead of commenting publicly, gun La got in
Speaker 1: touch privately with one of the officials responsible That officials
Speaker 1: said he had just taken old rules for TV and
Speaker 1: applied them online. Gungla framed it as a business issue.
Speaker 1: He suggested that next time there should be more opportunity
Speaker 1: for public input. In January this year, the same group
Speaker 1: issued another list of banned subjects, this time for short
Speaker 1: video platforms. The list includes foot fetishes and criticism of
Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party, but it doesn't include explicit mention
Speaker 1: of homosexuality. Gungla thanked the official privately and counts it
Speaker 1: as a win for dialogue over confrontation and Uiva Take
Speaker 1: Will So Take. Gongla said that he really believes dialogue
Speaker 1: can solve problems and that the government is supportive of
Speaker 1: his company because it knows Blueood is doing things well.
Speaker 1: He said that even though there are some officials who
Speaker 1: aren't very tolerant of the gay community overrule, he said
Speaker 1: the government is well intentioned that right there is a
Speaker 1: good example of Gungla's business savvy. Bloods market made pend
Speaker 1: on pushing social boundaries, but Gungla's focus is definitely on business,
Speaker 1: not on advocacy, and not on challenging the government. In fact,
Speaker 1: Blue has become an essential partner for the government and
Speaker 1: its public health outreach, particularly for HIV and AIDS programs,
Speaker 1: and this strategy has worked at least for now. Blood
Speaker 1: has been growing rapidly since twelve and today it's got
Speaker 1: forty million total users. About six of those are in
Speaker 1: China and the rest are outside China, mainly in countries
Speaker 1: where there's a big Chinese speaking population. The Blued investor,
Speaker 1: David Chow, says the company is planning to diversify into
Speaker 1: new services that cater to LGBT consumers, and Blue Baby
Speaker 1: is the first. The idea came from Gungla's own life,
Speaker 1: because about four years ago he started looking seriously at
Speaker 1: becoming a father. He says he always liked kids and
Speaker 1: thought they were cute, but then he hit thirty five
Speaker 1: and he started to envy other people when he saw
Speaker 1: them with their children. He wanted one of his own.
Speaker 1: There was a lot to figure out, like where it's
Speaker 1: even legal to have a child by stirring it. He
Speaker 1: also thought about what life might be like for his child,
Speaker 1: the child of a gay man in China. He said
Speaker 1: he thought about how the child might feel a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure, or experienced prejudice, or feel insecure unsafe. He
Speaker 1: said the child might feel that other people have mothers
Speaker 1: but that he didn't. In fact, he told me a
Speaker 1: story about how, not long ago, while they were all
Speaker 1: at home together, his son called out for a mother
Speaker 1: that he just didn't know. Eventually, Gangla decided to go
Speaker 1: to California for surrogacy. He was hoping for twins, but
Speaker 1: only one baby came to term. Spent a month in
Speaker 1: l A, two weeks before the birth and two afterwards.
Speaker 1: He said the feeling of fatherhood never really hit him
Speaker 1: until he held his son in his arms. It was
Speaker 1: then on that he really felt the rising combination of
Speaker 1: love and responsibility. Gungla's son now lives outside the city
Speaker 1: with his grandparents and his other dad, Gunglo's boyfriend, mostly
Speaker 1: because the air quality in the environment is better there.
Speaker 1: Gungla face times with his son and of course gets
Speaker 1: lots of photos and updates about what he's doing. Like
Speaker 1: lots of parents, he thinks his son is extremely smart
Speaker 1: and says maybe he'll go to school in the US
Speaker 1: one day. Gungla says surrogacy is something really positive that's
Speaker 1: transformed his life, enlightened some of the pressures of being
Speaker 1: gay in China. It's also part of the reason he
Speaker 1: decided to start Blue Baby. Yeah. In December, I went
Speaker 1: to l A to visit HRC Fertility. It's one of
Speaker 1: the clinics that Blued partners with in California. It has
Speaker 1: a refined, a beige reception area, and they get a
Speaker 1: lot of Chinese clients, which you can tell because there's
Speaker 1: so much Chinese being spoken, maybe more Chinese in English.
Speaker 1: I was there to meet a man named Russell who'd
Speaker 1: flown in from China to deposit seamen, which is the
Speaker 1: first step in having a baby by surrogate. I come
Speaker 1: from Shahaiu, I have a partner. I'm out to everyone
Speaker 1: except that Perry Russell isn't one of Blue Babies clients,
Speaker 1: but he's just the sort of person gung La is
Speaker 1: hoping to serve. He's thirty seven and works in marketing
Speaker 1: for an international company. He also has his own marketing
Speaker 1: business on the side. Russell's parents still live in the
Speaker 1: small rural town where he grew up, and he says
Speaker 1: it's becoming an issue that they don't know he's gay.
Speaker 1: They don't understand why he's not settling down and starting
Speaker 1: a family. Remember the marriage market in Shanghai we talked about.
Speaker 1: Because I'm getting older and older than the pressure is
Speaker 1: stronger and stronger from the family than just since recently,
Speaker 1: I think maybe it's a good idea, yeah, to have
Speaker 1: that baby. And also I personally I like babies too,
Speaker 1: so why not. So Also the reason I wanted to
Speaker 1: have a baby, well then because they have given me
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure. They want me to get married.
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking maybe I can just escape the step,
Speaker 1: like escape marriage, just two babies. That's much easier for me.
Speaker 1: The path's becoming a gay parent is full of hurdles.
Speaker 1: For starters, it's incredibly expensive. Russell is budgeting two thousand
Speaker 1: dollars for the process, and that's about how much gun
Speaker 1: Las spent as well. Russell first looked into adoption but
Speaker 1: found it would be impossible for him as a single
Speaker 1: gay man in China. He has friends who've had babies
Speaker 1: by surrogate in Thailand, which would be cheaper, but it's
Speaker 1: illegal there. So after doing some research, Russell found an
Speaker 1: agency called Los Angeles Surrogacy. For Russell, the next steps
Speaker 1: to find an egg donor and a sarrogate, but it
Speaker 1: will probably take another year before he becomes a father.
Speaker 1: You know, in terms of an egg dollar and in
Speaker 1: transma sorga, do you know what you're looking for? Do
Speaker 1: you know what you want? Um? I'm more I'm putting
Speaker 1: more attention to the paying more attention to the egg donor.
Speaker 1: At the moment, I haven't thought about the next step,
Speaker 1: so I want to have a mixed baby since it's
Speaker 1: already a sarrogate baby, so I won't have a mixed
Speaker 1: and I would go forward dark hair because if the
Speaker 1: egg donor is a blonde girl, I'm sure that it's
Speaker 1: very likely that my baby is going to be like blonde.
Speaker 1: Then you know, in the future, I have this blond
Speaker 1: kid on the streets, there was where's your mother? And
Speaker 1: it's still obvious that he does. He's it's not my baby.
Speaker 1: Blue Baby wants to make surrogacy easier and safer for
Speaker 1: the LGBT community, steering clients to places where surrogacy is
Speaker 1: legal and long established like California, employees connect clients with
Speaker 1: trusted providers and shepherd them through each step, choosing an
Speaker 1: egg donor choosing a surrogate, drawing up legal contracts. There
Speaker 1: are three employees in Los Angeles who pick up clients
Speaker 1: at the airport, book hotels and help get them around
Speaker 1: the city. Blue Baby was launched less than two years ago,
Speaker 1: so it can't count any actual births yet, although some
Speaker 1: of its clients are pregnant, or rather the surrogates are pregnant.
Speaker 1: Blue Baby is also a test of how Blued can
Speaker 1: diversify its business into products and services that aren't necessarily online.
Speaker 1: For a mobile app and an online company, surrogacy is
Speaker 1: a very high touch business. See said that in comparison
Speaker 1: to the Internet side of his company, surrogacy is actually
Speaker 1: a slow business. It's a service industry, but he wanted
Speaker 1: to do it anyway because he thinks he can help
Speaker 1: people and because it's a happy thing, even in saying
Speaker 1: that though it will turn a profit eventually. When David
Speaker 1: sat down with geng La, it was around the Chinese
Speaker 1: New Year, and he talked a lot about what's spurring
Speaker 1: gay men from China to turn to surrogacy. H to
Speaker 1: my the Chinese New Year means heading home to visit family,
Speaker 1: and Gungla says it brings out all the pressures of
Speaker 1: being gay, pressures that parents and relatives feel as well.
Speaker 1: When an adult child comes home unmarried with no kids,
Speaker 1: it's hard for parents to face their friends too. He says.
Speaker 1: Bringing home his son the next generation of the family
Speaker 1: has repaired the heartache and the difficulties that his being
Speaker 1: gay and coming out has meant for them. A lot
Speaker 1: of people I spoke to, including academics and doctors, as
Speaker 1: well as intended parents themselves, said the same thing. Having
Speaker 1: a child makes it easier for these men to come
Speaker 1: out to their families. I asked Russell whether this was
Speaker 1: part of his plan too. Do you think once you
Speaker 1: have baby, you'll tell your parents who come out to
Speaker 1: your hands. Well, that's a very good question. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to tell them. Maybe my kid would tell them
Speaker 1: when he or she grow up. Russell is hoping for
Speaker 1: a girl after this long process, and he anticipates lots
Speaker 1: of challenges to raising his child. He thinks he might
Speaker 1: have to send her to an expensive international school because
Speaker 1: she'll be a US citizen and technically a foreigner in China,
Speaker 1: Russell isn't sure if he'll be able to get her
Speaker 1: the documents and permits needed to attend a regular Chinese school.
Speaker 1: He wonders how future classmates may react to her, and
Speaker 1: if she'll resent him for not being a normal dad
Speaker 1: in a traditional family. How wuld how would your child
Speaker 1: be up? Said, they won't really, They'll just know what
Speaker 1: your family is like, and that's their family. They'll just
Speaker 1: accept it. Because the kid is going to face a
Speaker 1: lot of difficulties in school, and because it's not a
Speaker 1: normal family, he's not going to be treated equally as
Speaker 1: other kids. I know it's not going to be easy
Speaker 1: because our society is not ready for this kind of baby,
Speaker 1: especially if we are gay couples. The plan eventually is
Speaker 1: for Blue to address this kind of worry with things
Speaker 1: like social kids groups on the app, where children of
Speaker 1: LGBT parents can bond free from the stigma they might
Speaker 1: face for having a non traditional family. Russell is also
Speaker 1: concerned that at any moment, the Chinese government could decide
Speaker 1: it's not going to look the other way anymore. And
Speaker 1: you know our government is very communist. You don't know
Speaker 1: what they're going to do in the future. Maybe one
Speaker 1: day they were just to say, Okay, we have to
Speaker 1: stop this. You cannot do set babies in China, you
Speaker 1: cannot promote it. When we asked Don La and David
Speaker 1: Chow about that kind of risk, whether it's a crackdown
Speaker 1: on surrogacy or the gay community more broadly, they both
Speaker 1: said they aren't worried, and Blue certainly seems to be thriving.
Speaker 1: It's domestic business has turned to profit for the last
Speaker 1: two years, and Gun was now planning an I p
Speaker 1: O so June. On the point about Bloods plans to
Speaker 1: to go public, did you get the sense that any
Speaker 1: part of those plans was related to putting the company
Speaker 1: on a sure of footing and insulate it from risk
Speaker 1: coming from the government. Not necessarily. I mean, if the
Speaker 1: government wants to crack down in China, they will um
Speaker 1: but one reason they may not is demographics. China's population
Speaker 1: is aging really rapidly, and having spent a long time
Speaker 1: trying to limit the population, I think the government is
Speaker 1: now interested in boosting the birth rate. And even if
Speaker 1: these babies are born by surrogate, they're still babies. They're
Speaker 1: still boosting the birth rate. Given how expensive this procedure is,
Speaker 1: I wonder how many babies this you know, this avenue
Speaker 1: would actually yield. That's true. I mean it does seem
Speaker 1: incredibly expensive and complicated, you know, with the currency controls
Speaker 1: in China and stuff like that. But some of the
Speaker 1: fertility experts that I talked to who have been to
Speaker 1: China on the kind of educational tours that Blood has
Speaker 1: put on to talk to gay men who are considering
Speaker 1: surrogacy said that often their parents are with them and
Speaker 1: this is such a strong it's so it's such a
Speaker 1: strong imperative to have children in China that these parents
Speaker 1: are just totally committed they're going to chip in and
Speaker 1: help make it happen for their sons. Well, that was
Speaker 1: one of the big revelations for me working with you
Speaker 1: on this story. I had no idea that, um, it
Speaker 1: would help parents deal with their children's sexuality if they
Speaker 1: had a grandchild in the picture. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think it sort of just allows them to ignore it.
Speaker 1: I mean, who cares about their children's sexuality when they
Speaker 1: have a grandchilds Yeah, so did you meet any of
Speaker 1: Blue Babies clients, They wouldn't make any of their clients available.
Speaker 1: I mean they said basically, they were all really worried
Speaker 1: about privacy, and um, I mean it's still not something
Speaker 1: that's really accepted in China. Um, it's not seen as normal, right,
Speaker 1: even even just surrogacy by straight people, right, So I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of concerns around that. Um. I
Speaker 1: was able to talk to a surrogate who's working with
Speaker 1: a blue baby client and she's about to give birth
Speaker 1: any day now. Um, and that was cool. I mean
Speaker 1: it was kind of so we're gonna have a blued baby,
Speaker 1: the first blue baby, any day now. And that's it
Speaker 1: for this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. We
Speaker 1: want to hear from you, so you can find me
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Dune Lawrence and I'm at Pia Gadkari,
Speaker 1: And please help us spread the word about on new season.
Speaker 1: You can leave us a rating and a review wherever
Speaker 1: you like to listen. This episode was produced by piaged
Speaker 1: Cary and Lindsay Cratiwell. Our story editor was Emily Busso.
Speaker 1: Thanks also to Ann vander May, aki Ito and Brad Stone.
Speaker 1: Francesco Leavy is head of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next week. M M. Hm