WEBVTT - Pings and DNA Admissibility 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.360 How the hell did his DNA end up on that 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:10.480 sheath at that murder scene if it wasn't his sheath. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.360 All we hear about are the pings, the pings Brian Coberger, 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:17.440 the alleged was pinging everywhere. 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:20.440 It's a bad idea to have your cell phone with 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.720 you when you commit a correct This isn't a who 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:25.799 done it, and I don't have to prove to you 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:27.120 why he done it. 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.440 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:44.480 and iHeartRadio, Season two, episode six, Pings and DNA Admissibility. 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:50.159 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:55.160 Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. At the center of the prosecution's 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:59.280 case against Ques murderer Brian Coberger, our records tied to 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.960 his cell phone and DNA that allegedly places him at 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:07.600 the scene of the crime. The defense has called foul 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:09.240 on both areas of evidence. 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:17.080 Investigators now say they harvested DNA from an empty leather 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.679 knife sheath. Police say that DNA match DNA from Coburger's father, 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:26.080 which they collected from trash outside the family's Pennsylvania home. 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.480 Does the government now have genealogy and follow that previously 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.720 was controlled by individuals and private organizations. And how accurate 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.520 is this database. 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:39.120 The genealogy sites that allows police to search public records 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.680 of people who have opted in saying, Hey, if there's 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.560 a murderer or a rapist in my family, I don't 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:51.080 mind if you use my DNA to try to find them. 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:52.200 Here's Stephanie. 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.280 We have to remember DNA is a big ticket item 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.440 for the prosecution. And just as a quick refresh, we 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.240 know that quote a hit of Brian Coburger's DNA was 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.200 found on a knife sheath left behind at the crime scene, 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.400 and we also know that investigators connected that through familial DNA. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.480 Brian Coburger's parents' house was under surveillance in the days 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.960 leading up to his arrest. His dad, we have to assume, 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.639 tosses his trash in the garbage cans outside their home 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.840 and then investigators retrieve it and from that trash they're 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.640 able to identify Dad's DNA and put that into a database. 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.040 In boom, there's a familial match. 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:32.720 Now. 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.160 Look, this has been highly debated as some say that 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:39.080 the search and seizure of Coburger's family trash is questionable. 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.560 In the course of researching this season, the team at 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:47.160 Katie Studios came across an article called how DNA and 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.079 cell phone evidence in Idaho murders complied with the Fourth Amendment. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.679 To get clarity on this pivotal information, I reached out 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.559 to the article's author, Collie Stimpson, who has singular expertise 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:00.600 in areas. 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:04.720 Hi Courtney, It's Hully Stimpson from the Heritage Foundation. 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:09.400 Cully, how are you. I'm great, excellent, and your article 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:13.119 was it seemed just so on point with so many 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.360 pertinent matters. I guess just to start, would you just 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.280 let listeners know your name and your background. 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.800 Sure. My name is Hully Stimpson. I'm a Senior Legal 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.280 Fellow and manager of the National Security Law Program at 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.720 the Heritage Foundation. Prior to that, I served in the 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.280 Navy jag Corps, which is the lawyer corps the Navy, 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.400 and served as a prosecutor defense lawyer. When I was 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.280 a prosecutor in the Navy, I tried a bunch of 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.560 violent crimes, including a case that involved DNA. Was one 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.280 of the few cases that the Navy had used DNA 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.120 in early on. This is the ninety two, three, four 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.200 five period of time and I worked as a homicide 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:52.520 prosecutor in Maryland and I tried the first PCR case. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:53.840 What's PCR? 0:03:54.480 --> 0:04:00.640 So it's a type of testing of genetic material. So 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:05.320 when you used to have blood testing, you're either AB 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.400 or O and those are broad categories of blood type. 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.200 Then when we started using genetics, you had to have 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.400 a large amount of genetic material stuff left at a 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:21.000 crime scene. But because the laws always behind technology lags 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:24.200 way behind it, the genetic labs were now using the 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.279 next level, the next more sophisticated level, which required much 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:32.040 less material called PCR polychromis reaction. By the way, when 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.240 I was a Maryland I'm side prosecutor, I was the 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.120 head of attorney training in the office, which included training 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.919 on how to use DNA in cases. And when I 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.320 was an instructor of the Naval Justice School for five years, 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.720 I taught the whole JAG Corps how to use forensic DNA. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.719 And of course now we're so confident that we have 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.599 twenty three and meters or did ancestry, dot com and 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.559 all the rest of it, and so tens of millions 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.800 of people rely on that genetic material to find close 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.960 and distant relatives. All around the world. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.880 You've been with DNA since the very very beginning. 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.159 Well, I'm actually made of DNA like you, So yeah, 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.760 I think from the very beginning. But I've had the 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.560 opportunity to work with it, and as a defense attorney, 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.560 I fought against it like any good defense attorney and 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.960 tried to poke holes not into scientific reliability, because I 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.080 think that's a losing battle, but in whether it was 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.640 collected correctly, whether testing procedures were done correctly, whether there's 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.920 an adulterated sample. That's really where the game is. As 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:29.200 a defense council. 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.799 I asked Kully how he thinks DNA and its collection 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.520 will play out in this case during trial, as well 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.560 as his general thoughts on the accused. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.000 I mean, it's interesting, look what he's studying. He's getting 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.640 his PhD in criminal justice. I don't know what he's read, 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.600 and I don't know what his course requirements are. If 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.800 I was the prosecutor, I'd be pulling every book he 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.000 ever had to read, in every syllabus to find out 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.039 and look for things about alibi and forensic evidence. And 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.160 I would want to get into the guy's head by 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.000 seeing what he is doing. Sudied in what he's writing. 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.960 But I don't think that, for example, the questions about 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.680 the way the evidence was collected at his parents' house 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:09.720 back in Pennsylvania is an issue at all. I mean, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.839 once you discard something, it's not yours anymore, you've abandoned it. 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.039 And as a Fourth Amendment principle, you've abandoned any Fourth 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.640 Amendment standing to complain that you know, somebody picked up 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.000 my cigarette, but that they tossed on the ground, somebody 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:22.080 rifled through the trash out in front of my house, 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.440 Well you gave it up, so you don't have a 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.520 right to complain. And it's his parents' house, so he 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.919 doesn't even live there anymore. He's an emancipated man, so 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.159 he doesn't have a standing to complain about his parents 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.960 throwing stuff away in their house, So he has a 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.600 double negative there. He had no standing if he threw 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:39.280 it away to himself, and he certainly doesn't mean standing 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:40.320 if his parents threw it away. 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.120 Can I have you slow that down for one second? 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.360 So what prompted you to write this article? You know 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.040 about how the evidence complies with the Fourth Amendment? And 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:52.239 what is the Fourth Amendment? 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.720 The Fourth Amendment is part of the original Bill of 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.640 Rights which were passed, you know, a few years after 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:03.000 the Constitution was signed and ratified by the States, and 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.080 it essentially, in so far as this is related, says 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:12.440 that the government may not engage in unreasonable searches and 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.840 seizures of your person's places or things or papers. Right 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.520 and so for the government to get into your stuff, 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.520 to see your stuff, typically they at the very least 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.120 have to have probable cause to believe that you are 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.560 the person who committed a crime. And that if they 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.800 look into your stuff by getting a warrant that's very 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.720 specific as to location and what they're looking for, signed 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.440 by a judge, a neutral, detached magistrate, the government can 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.960 then look into your gut, into your house, look in 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.320 the drawer, look in the closet for the knife, the gun, 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.880 the rope, whatever you used for a crime. I was 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:52.720 very interested in the development of Fourth Amendment law through 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.560 the Supreme Court because there was a case that the 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.400 Court had recently come down with called Carpenter against the 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:03.280 United States in a throwaway line that Justice Gorsuch said, 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:07.120 where he I think made a mistake suggesting that people 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.760 would have a Fourth Amendment right to genetic material that 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:16.000 is on third party genetics hosting sites. If I spit 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.120 into a vial and give it to ancestry dot com 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.000 and I have a contract with them to do so, 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.679 I pay them a fee, they send me and only 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.400 me my results back. If I then want to keep 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.200 it private, that's it. No one gets to see what 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:31.840 the results are. But if I want to take the 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:36.920 extraordinary step of then providing that material, those test results 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.160 to a third party genetics website, it's like put it 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.760 in the trash can. It's like hanging it outside my 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.320 front porch for everyone to see, because you sign a 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:46.800 contract that says this is out there for the world 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.920 to see. Because I want the world to see who 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.480 I'm related to, so they can see that they're related 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.680 to me. And so when this case came along, I 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.000 was reading the articles about it, and I thought, they're 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.200 clearly clueless about this because they were suggesting, oh, oh, 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.360 it's a violation of his Fourth Amendment right because they 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.240 went through the trash Oh it's a violation of this. 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.000 So I was like, Ooha, slowly down, everybody. And the 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.920 Coolberger case is poking along now and it's getting closer 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.439 to trial time and more and more people are sort 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.200 of interested in the mechanics of the trial. But I 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.880 suspect the closer we get to trial, people will be 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.960 more interested in the DNA and the difference between the 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:26.400 snip DNA genetics testing piece which they did for the 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:32.440 trash and then the regular forensic testing for admissibility into court. 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:34.440 And so you know, the closer we get to trial 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.040 and the more that gets litigated, I'm sure people want 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.280 to know in English what all that means? 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.839 Yeah, and is there a way to break those things down? 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.720 There's two types of forensic tests. What forensic means is 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.080 used for criminal court, So just just sort of file 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.440 that away anytime you hear forensic and then a word 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:59.079 after it means for criminal trial. So forensic DNA profiles 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:03.000 typically you find genetic material at a crime scene, you 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.439 don't know who did it, You post it into the 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:11.440 FBI's DNA database looking for a hit, and in best 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.760 case scenario, somebody's already provided their DNA because they're law 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.720 enforcement or military or their prior criminal and they've taken 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.120 their DNA. You get a hit and then you test 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.560 you know the chances of it being somebody else's DNA 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.160 and then you come up with a result. Here, when 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:31.320 they found the sheath that held the knife that the 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:35.480 subject used to slay the poor college kids, they tested 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.080 the sheath and they found genetic material that probably means 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:43.679 epithelial cells. Cells that are found, believe it or not, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.640 in the sweat that comes off your fingertip. Okay, so 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.800 everywhere everything you're touching, you're leaving a little part of 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.520 your DNA on it. I mean you can't even see it, right. 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.520 So whoever the dude or dude that is that killed 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.040 these people left the sheath there. They test the sheath, 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:03.360 and they were smart because instead of just using one 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.760 test and hoping that they'd get a random hit through 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:12.199 the FBI DNA database called Cotis CODIS, they also had 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.040 a brain. Because CODIS only tests and I don't want 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.000 to use scientific jargon, but let's just say five or 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.520 six or seven, just a handful of what are called 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:27.320 genetic markers. So you've seen the quarkscrew DNA nucleotide. The 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.679 thing looks like a winding staircase. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.319 Back in seventh grade, right, and. 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.080 So imagine that as that quarkscrew is going down and 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.640 down and down there's stairs. It tests six or seven 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.520 or eight stairs at different points in the DNA quarkscrew 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:47.800 SNIPS is different. SNIPS are. It's an acronym stands for 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:54.559 single nucleotide polymorphism. And so imagine what they're doing there 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.040 is they're looking at thirty or forty or fifty of 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.480 those stairs, and that's just to see what variations there 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:07.360 are in sequences on somebody else's double helix, to see 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.800 if there's a relationship between the person who left the 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.079 DNA and somebody else. It's not used forensically in court. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.679 It's just think of it as the ancestry dot com 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.640 part of genetic testing. And so they tested, in my opinion, 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.439 it hasn't been made public yet. They clearly tested the 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:30.319 standard forensic testing, the standard DNA testing, probably PCR, and 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.199 then they did SNIP testing, most likely because when they 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:37.440 connected the dots between his cell phone and his parents' 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.280 location and he was registered at his parents' house, et cetera, 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.880 and they went to the trash and got the parents 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.920 trash and tested some of the trash. Colberg had been 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.640 visiting his mommy and daddy, and sure enough, on the 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:54.880 trash they find through SNIP technology, a person who was 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:59.079 ninety nine point nine percent think of it as chance 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.400 of being his dad. So in other words, it's his dad. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.200 It's the dad of the person who left the genetic 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.400 material on the sheath. So if you remember I Love 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.720 Lucy when Ricky Ricardo said Lucy, you got some splaining 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.040 to do. Colberger doesn't have to do any explaining because 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.480 he's a defendant. He has a right to remain silent. 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.440 But it looks really bad for him because how the 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.000 hell did his DNA end up on that sheath in 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:27.200 that bedroom at that murder scene. If it wasn't his sheath, 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.920 and if it was his sheath, why was it there? 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.160 And he doesn't have to say anything. He can stand 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.400 on his right to remain silent, and that remains his 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:36.520 right throughout the trial. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.440 Just going back to what you said, how you did 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.280 training in the prosecutor's office and then also in JAG 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.920 was a lot of acceptance of DNA as something reliable. 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.679 Was it just teaching that the presentation and helping people 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.520 understand it on a really basic level so it didn't 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.000 seem like magic, and so people could understand. 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.800 Well, it's a complicated question with a somewhat easy answer. 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.080 You don't have to become a genetics expert as a 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:11.240 prosecutor or defense counsel or judge to use DNA as 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.680 a forensic matter in a criminal trial. But what you 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.240 have to do to be good at either using it 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:22.600 for or against your case is to understand collection protocols, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:28.160 testing procedures, and protocols areas where samples can get mixed 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.840 up with other samples. And so, just like with any 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.680 other forensic techniques that are used, you have to get 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.040 good at understanding the basics of the science and then 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.400 get really good at understanding how you get from A 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:45.320 to Z, getting into court, and then either defending its 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.880 use or poking holes at its reliability. That's where the 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.840 line's share of the work is done these days. 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.480 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:08.720 a moment. After getting a better understanding of the DNA 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.360 in this case, we decided to dig a little deeper 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.880 into the technology of the cell towers. Here's Stephanie. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.600 There has been so much back and forth over the 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:20.800 phone pings, because again, this is going to be a 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.160 big ticket item. It sounds like for sure the accused 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.240 Brian Coburger was out and about a whole lot that 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:32.240 fateful morning both before and after the murders. Investigators claim 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.480 that they have phone pings that place Coburger near the 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:39.040 house the morning of the murders, and Coburger's defense team 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.720 is arguing that he was nowhere near the house when 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.080 the murders happened. What is so interesting here is that 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.800 the same data that the prosecution is going to use 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.200 to place Coburger at the scene is the exact same 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:56.040 data that the defense is going to use to dispute them. 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.120 I reached out to Scott Green, founder of Great Scott Enterprises. 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.160 For nearly forty years, he's been collecting, analyzing, and helping 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.880 to explain complex electronic evidence. 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.160 I collect the data, I analyze the data, I make 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.400 sense of the data, and then I present the data 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.680 in court, either to a jury or to the judge. 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.200 What we wanted to speak with you about is the 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.960 cell phone data. And all we hear about are the pings. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:32.600 The pings. Brian Colberg, the alleged was pinging everywhere. Can 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:37.480 you please explain what are cell phone pings or signals? 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:39.320 And how specific are they? 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.840 So a ping in the way it's been used in 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.920 the media. And I read the articles with regards to 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:50.080 cell phones and towers, is a connection between a cell 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:55.040 phone and a tower. Those connections fall into three different categories. Generally, 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.840 they are a phone call that would ping off a 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.200 tower connect to a tower, and they're referred to as pings. 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.239 So they occur when somebody makes a phone call, they 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.440 occur when somebody uses data, and they occur when somebody 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.200 sends a standard SMS or text message. As far as 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:17.680 how specific a ping is, the tower knows the direction 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.320 that the cell phone is from the tower. So what 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:23.720 you get out of the ping and out of the 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:29.000 cell phone carrier is a direction from the tower, generally 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.640 in a pie shaped area that shows the direction from 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.560 the tower that the cell phone is. And when you 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.680 have them moving through space and time, you can get 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.119 an idea as to where the cell phone is going 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.600 and how fast it's moving and some things like that. 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.560 You get some estimates out of that, but you don't 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:52.520 get an exact position out of the cell phone carrier information. 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.720 What I understood, as you described it, was that the 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.439 pings happen when something active is occurring a call, a text, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.720 or using data. These pings also happen passively. I have 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.200 my phone here right now? Is this pinging? 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.760 Cell Phones and towers are communicating most of the time, 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.560 usually because there's data transactions between a cell phone and 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.680 a tower. That could be updates. It could be email 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.600 getting updated, or inbound or outbound data of some sort. 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.600 Understood. So in this case, the accused coburger wouldn't have 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.480 had to have been actively on his phone to ping. 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.040 It could be something in the background. Is that correct? 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:35.240 It could be something in the background that is generating 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:36.640 those pings. True. 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:41.480 I know you said direction and potential trajectory. And does 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.960 the radius depend upon how far apart the towers are. 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.480 So basically, could they spot me in my car within 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.760 a two block radius or is it a two mile radius? 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.520 Ah, So that's a great question. In the country outside 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.960 of cities, in rural areas, the cell phone transmit a 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.679 much longer distance than they do inside the cities. So 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.840 it depends where you are as far as how far 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:10.800 a cell tower will transmit. 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.719 In Moscow, Idaho, it's not in the country. It's certainly 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.359 it is in no way in a big city. But 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.040 there's two colleges right nearby, because I would imagine colleges 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:23.520 would need more power. 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.639 So here's an interesting thing. I drove past the University 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.119 of Arizona yesterday and one of the things that I 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:34.440 noticed is that there are a tremendous number of five 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:38.800 G towers around a university. In the country where the 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:43.240 accused was driving, there's probably a lot fewer. What's the 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.880 distance between those two locations. Somebody said ten. 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.639 Minutes, ten miles, about ten miles, So. 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.440 In the country, you're going to find that cell phone 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.879 towers can be miles apart and cover miles in both directions. 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.800 From a cell phone tower, they vary in direction based 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:03.359 up on geography and where people are and how the 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.880 cell phone carrier wants to cover the area. 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.840 This isn't specifically a technical question, so we can skip 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:13.520 over it if you want. But the accused is a 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:18.640 criminology PhD student. Is it surprising to you that, if 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.840 what's alleged is true, that he had his phone on 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.080 him the whole time? I mean, even I know that 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.359 my phone will leave a footprint. 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.720 It is surprising to me that someone with that background 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.920 would have their phone with them. Agree. I would think 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:38.840 somebody who has some intelligence about criminal backgrounds and criminology 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.960 would probably at that level at least know that it's 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.800 a bad idea to have your cell phone with you 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:45.639 when you commit a. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:51.720 Current Yeah, it's just so incongruous. As a PhD candidate, 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:57.639 Coburger was also a teacher's assistant at Pullman Washington State University, 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.320 and we spoke with one of his students, and she's 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.399 not wrong. That's one of the things that gives her 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:08.399 pause on the alleged guilt is it's one oh one 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:12.240 to not do that. How frequently do pings update? Is 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.160 it a standard amount of time? Does it depend situationally? 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:21.840 Wow, it depends. Pings get updated differently based upon which 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:24.480 one of those three items is going on. You're going 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.440 to see every time there is a text message set, 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.560 you can see a connection to a tower. And every 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:35.960 time a cell phone call is initiated, or the cell 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.680 phone changes towers, or the call ends one of those 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.520 three things. When it's a phone call, you'll see a 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.040 different tower recorded by the cell phone carrier. Does that 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:46.600 make sense? 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.520 It does make sense. As a real example, here a 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:55.200 white sedan that the prosecution alleges is Coburger's. It was 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.639 seen passing by the victim's residence at three twenty nine 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.719 that same what via goal at four oh four and 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.000 at four twenty is seen leaving the area at high speed. 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:12.760 Can officials attempt to corroborate we see the car and 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.800 then go and check the tower to see if that 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:16.880 lines up? 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:19.640 So are you asking me if the law enforcement at 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:23.560 the time, can go do that or look back in history? 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.480 Go back in history. As a layman, I would want 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:31.119 to think, oh, can I corroborate that? With cell tower information? 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:36.000 You can corroborate the location of the cell phone if 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.920 it was in the car, they would be able to say, Okay, 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:40.639 it's in the car and it's moving, or it's in 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.320 the car and stationery if the cell phone is on 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.080 and communicating with the tower. Because in this case, we 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.720 see that the cell phone is connected at his home 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:55.960 to forty two am right and then at two forty seven, 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:00.440 so five minutes later it's moving and then get turned 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:05.199 off and then it gets turned back on for forty 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:10.200 eight south of Moscow, Idaho on State Highway ninety five. 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.840 In between that, if I understand the timeline and what's 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:17.840 listed here, the cell phone is off, so it's not 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:23.040 talking to the towers at all. Interestingly, the car is 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:24.120