1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: How the hell did his DNA end up on that 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: sheath at that murder scene if it wasn't his sheath. 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: All we hear about are the pings, the pings Brian Coberger, 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: the alleged was pinging everywhere. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 3: It's a bad idea to have your cell phone with 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 3: you when you commit a correct This isn't a who 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 3: done it, and I don't have to prove to you 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 3: why he done it. 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio, Season two, episode six, Pings and DNA Admissibility. 11 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie 12 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. At the center of the prosecution's 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: case against Ques murderer Brian Coberger, our records tied to 14 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 2: his cell phone and DNA that allegedly places him at 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: the scene of the crime. The defense has called foul 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: on both areas of evidence. 17 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 4: Investigators now say they harvested DNA from an empty leather 18 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 4: knife sheath. Police say that DNA match DNA from Coburger's father, 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 4: which they collected from trash outside the family's Pennsylvania home. 20 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: Does the government now have genealogy and follow that previously 21 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: was controlled by individuals and private organizations. And how accurate 22 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: is this database. 23 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 5: The genealogy sites that allows police to search public records 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 5: of people who have opted in saying, Hey, if there's 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 5: a murderer or a rapist in my family, I don't 26 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 5: mind if you use my DNA to try to find them. 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: Here's Stephanie. 28 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 6: We have to remember DNA is a big ticket item 29 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 6: for the prosecution. And just as a quick refresh, we 30 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 6: know that quote a hit of Brian Coburger's DNA was 31 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 6: found on a knife sheath left behind at the crime scene, 32 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 6: and we also know that investigators connected that through familial DNA. 33 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 6: Brian Coburger's parents' house was under surveillance in the days 34 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 6: leading up to his arrest. His dad, we have to assume, 35 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 6: tosses his trash in the garbage cans outside their home 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 6: and then investigators retrieve it and from that trash they're 37 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 6: able to identify Dad's DNA and put that into a database. 38 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 6: In boom, there's a familial match. 39 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: Now. 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 6: Look, this has been highly debated as some say that 41 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 6: the search and seizure of Coburger's family trash is questionable. 42 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: In the course of researching this season, the team at 43 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: Katie Studios came across an article called how DNA and 44 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 2: cell phone evidence in Idaho murders complied with the Fourth Amendment. 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 2: To get clarity on this pivotal information, I reached out 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,559 Speaker 2: to the article's author, Collie Stimpson, who has singular expertise 47 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: in areas. 48 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: Hi Courtney, It's Hully Stimpson from the Heritage Foundation. 49 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: Cully, how are you. I'm great, excellent, and your article 50 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 2: was it seemed just so on point with so many 51 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: pertinent matters. I guess just to start, would you just 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: let listeners know your name and your background. 53 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: Sure. My name is Hully Stimpson. I'm a Senior Legal 54 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: Fellow and manager of the National Security Law Program at 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation. Prior to that, I served in the 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: Navy jag Corps, which is the lawyer corps the Navy, 57 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: and served as a prosecutor defense lawyer. When I was 58 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: a prosecutor in the Navy, I tried a bunch of 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: violent crimes, including a case that involved DNA. Was one 60 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: of the few cases that the Navy had used DNA 61 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: in early on. This is the ninety two, three, four 62 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: five period of time and I worked as a homicide 63 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: prosecutor in Maryland and I tried the first PCR case. 64 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: What's PCR? 65 00:03:54,480 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: So it's a type of testing of genetic material. So 66 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: when you used to have blood testing, you're either AB 67 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: or O and those are broad categories of blood type. 68 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: Then when we started using genetics, you had to have 69 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: a large amount of genetic material stuff left at a 70 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: crime scene. But because the laws always behind technology lags 71 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: way behind it, the genetic labs were now using the 72 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: next level, the next more sophisticated level, which required much 73 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: less material called PCR polychromis reaction. By the way, when 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: I was a Maryland I'm side prosecutor, I was the 75 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: head of attorney training in the office, which included training 76 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 1: on how to use DNA in cases. And when I 77 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: was an instructor of the Naval Justice School for five years, 78 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: I taught the whole JAG Corps how to use forensic DNA. 79 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: And of course now we're so confident that we have 80 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: twenty three and meters or did ancestry, dot com and 81 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 1: all the rest of it, and so tens of millions 82 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: of people rely on that genetic material to find close 83 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: and distant relatives. All around the world. 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: You've been with DNA since the very very beginning. 85 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: Well, I'm actually made of DNA like you, So yeah, 86 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: I think from the very beginning. But I've had the 87 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: opportunity to work with it, and as a defense attorney, 88 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: I fought against it like any good defense attorney and 89 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: tried to poke holes not into scientific reliability, because I 90 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: think that's a losing battle, but in whether it was 91 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: collected correctly, whether testing procedures were done correctly, whether there's 92 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: an adulterated sample. That's really where the game is. As 93 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: a defense council. 94 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 2: I asked Kully how he thinks DNA and its collection 95 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: will play out in this case during trial, as well 96 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: as his general thoughts on the accused. 97 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting, look what he's studying. He's getting 98 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: his PhD in criminal justice. I don't know what he's read, 99 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: and I don't know what his course requirements are. If 100 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: I was the prosecutor, I'd be pulling every book he 101 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: ever had to read, in every syllabus to find out 102 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: and look for things about alibi and forensic evidence. And 103 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: I would want to get into the guy's head by 104 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: seeing what he is doing. Sudied in what he's writing. 105 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: But I don't think that, for example, the questions about 106 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: the way the evidence was collected at his parents' house 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: back in Pennsylvania is an issue at all. I mean, 108 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: once you discard something, it's not yours anymore, you've abandoned it. 109 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: And as a Fourth Amendment principle, you've abandoned any Fourth 110 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: Amendment standing to complain that you know, somebody picked up 111 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: my cigarette, but that they tossed on the ground, somebody 112 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: rifled through the trash out in front of my house, 113 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: Well you gave it up, so you don't have a 114 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: right to complain. And it's his parents' house, so he 115 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: doesn't even live there anymore. He's an emancipated man, so 116 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: he doesn't have a standing to complain about his parents 117 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: throwing stuff away in their house, So he has a 118 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: double negative there. He had no standing if he threw 119 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: it away to himself, and he certainly doesn't mean standing 120 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: if his parents threw it away. 121 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: Can I have you slow that down for one second? 122 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: So what prompted you to write this article? You know 123 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: about how the evidence complies with the Fourth Amendment? And 124 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 2: what is the Fourth Amendment? 125 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: The Fourth Amendment is part of the original Bill of 126 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: Rights which were passed, you know, a few years after 127 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: the Constitution was signed and ratified by the States, and 128 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: it essentially, in so far as this is related, says 129 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: that the government may not engage in unreasonable searches and 130 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: seizures of your person's places or things or papers. Right 131 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: and so for the government to get into your stuff, 132 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: to see your stuff, typically they at the very least 133 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: have to have probable cause to believe that you are 134 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: the person who committed a crime. And that if they 135 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: look into your stuff by getting a warrant that's very 136 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: specific as to location and what they're looking for, signed 137 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: by a judge, a neutral, detached magistrate, the government can 138 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: then look into your gut, into your house, look in 139 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: the drawer, look in the closet for the knife, the gun, 140 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: the rope, whatever you used for a crime. I was 141 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: very interested in the development of Fourth Amendment law through 142 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court because there was a case that the 143 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: Court had recently come down with called Carpenter against the 144 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: United States in a throwaway line that Justice Gorsuch said, 145 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: where he I think made a mistake suggesting that people 146 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: would have a Fourth Amendment right to genetic material that 147 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: is on third party genetics hosting sites. If I spit 148 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: into a vial and give it to ancestry dot com 149 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: and I have a contract with them to do so, 150 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,679 Speaker 1: I pay them a fee, they send me and only 151 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: me my results back. If I then want to keep 152 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: it private, that's it. No one gets to see what 153 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: the results are. But if I want to take the 154 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: extraordinary step of then providing that material, those test results 155 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: to a third party genetics website, it's like put it 156 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: in the trash can. It's like hanging it outside my 157 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: front porch for everyone to see, because you sign a 158 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: contract that says this is out there for the world 159 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: to see. Because I want the world to see who 160 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm related to, so they can see that they're related 161 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: to me. And so when this case came along, I 162 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: was reading the articles about it, and I thought, they're 163 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: clearly clueless about this because they were suggesting, oh, oh, 164 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: it's a violation of his Fourth Amendment right because they 165 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: went through the trash Oh it's a violation of this. 166 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: So I was like, Ooha, slowly down, everybody. And the 167 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: Coolberger case is poking along now and it's getting closer 168 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: to trial time and more and more people are sort 169 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: of interested in the mechanics of the trial. But I 170 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: suspect the closer we get to trial, people will be 171 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: more interested in the DNA and the difference between the 172 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: snip DNA genetics testing piece which they did for the 173 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: trash and then the regular forensic testing for admissibility into court. 174 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: And so you know, the closer we get to trial 175 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: and the more that gets litigated, I'm sure people want 176 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: to know in English what all that means? 177 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, and is there a way to break those things down? 178 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: There's two types of forensic tests. What forensic means is 179 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: used for criminal court, So just just sort of file 180 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: that away anytime you hear forensic and then a word 181 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: after it means for criminal trial. So forensic DNA profiles 182 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: typically you find genetic material at a crime scene, you 183 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: don't know who did it, You post it into the 184 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: FBI's DNA database looking for a hit, and in best 185 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: case scenario, somebody's already provided their DNA because they're law 186 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: enforcement or military or their prior criminal and they've taken 187 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: their DNA. You get a hit and then you test 188 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: you know the chances of it being somebody else's DNA 189 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: and then you come up with a result. Here, when 190 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: they found the sheath that held the knife that the 191 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: subject used to slay the poor college kids, they tested 192 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: the sheath and they found genetic material that probably means 193 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: epithelial cells. Cells that are found, believe it or not, 194 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: in the sweat that comes off your fingertip. Okay, so 195 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: everywhere everything you're touching, you're leaving a little part of 196 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: your DNA on it. I mean you can't even see it, right. 197 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: So whoever the dude or dude that is that killed 198 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: these people left the sheath there. They test the sheath, 199 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: and they were smart because instead of just using one 200 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: test and hoping that they'd get a random hit through 201 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: the FBI DNA database called Cotis CODIS, they also had 202 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: a brain. Because CODIS only tests and I don't want 203 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: to use scientific jargon, but let's just say five or 204 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: six or seven, just a handful of what are called 205 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: genetic markers. So you've seen the quarkscrew DNA nucleotide. The 206 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: thing looks like a winding staircase. 207 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 2: Back in seventh grade, right, and. 208 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: So imagine that as that quarkscrew is going down and 209 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: down and down there's stairs. It tests six or seven 210 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: or eight stairs at different points in the DNA quarkscrew 211 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: SNIPS is different. SNIPS are. It's an acronym stands for 212 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: single nucleotide polymorphism. And so imagine what they're doing there 213 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: is they're looking at thirty or forty or fifty of 214 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: those stairs, and that's just to see what variations there 215 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: are in sequences on somebody else's double helix, to see 216 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: if there's a relationship between the person who left the 217 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 1: DNA and somebody else. It's not used forensically in court. 218 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: It's just think of it as the ancestry dot com 219 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: part of genetic testing. And so they tested, in my opinion, 220 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: it hasn't been made public yet. They clearly tested the 221 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: standard forensic testing, the standard DNA testing, probably PCR, and 222 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: then they did SNIP testing, most likely because when they 223 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: connected the dots between his cell phone and his parents' 224 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: location and he was registered at his parents' house, et cetera, 225 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: and they went to the trash and got the parents 226 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: trash and tested some of the trash. Colberg had been 227 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: visiting his mommy and daddy, and sure enough, on the 228 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: trash they find through SNIP technology, a person who was 229 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine percent think of it as chance 230 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: of being his dad. So in other words, it's his dad. 231 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: It's the dad of the person who left the genetic 232 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: material on the sheath. So if you remember I Love 233 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: Lucy when Ricky Ricardo said Lucy, you got some splaining 234 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: to do. Colberger doesn't have to do any explaining because 235 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: he's a defendant. He has a right to remain silent. 236 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: But it looks really bad for him because how the 237 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: hell did his DNA end up on that sheath in 238 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: that bedroom at that murder scene. If it wasn't his sheath, 239 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: and if it was his sheath, why was it there? 240 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: And he doesn't have to say anything. He can stand 241 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: on his right to remain silent, and that remains his 242 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: right throughout the trial. 243 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: Just going back to what you said, how you did 244 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: training in the prosecutor's office and then also in JAG 245 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: was a lot of acceptance of DNA as something reliable. 246 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: Was it just teaching that the presentation and helping people 247 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: understand it on a really basic level so it didn't 248 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 2: seem like magic, and so people could understand. 249 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: Well, it's a complicated question with a somewhat easy answer. 250 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: You don't have to become a genetics expert as a 251 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: prosecutor or defense counsel or judge to use DNA as 252 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: a forensic matter in a criminal trial. But what you 253 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: have to do to be good at either using it 254 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: for or against your case is to understand collection protocols, 255 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: testing procedures, and protocols areas where samples can get mixed 256 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: up with other samples. And so, just like with any 257 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: other forensic techniques that are used, you have to get 258 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: good at understanding the basics of the science and then 259 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: get really good at understanding how you get from A 260 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: to Z, getting into court, and then either defending its 261 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: use or poking holes at its reliability. That's where the 262 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: line's share of the work is done these days. 263 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 264 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: a moment. After getting a better understanding of the DNA 265 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: in this case, we decided to dig a little deeper 266 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: into the technology of the cell towers. Here's Stephanie. 267 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 6: There has been so much back and forth over the 268 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 6: phone pings, because again, this is going to be a 269 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 6: big ticket item. It sounds like for sure the accused 270 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 6: Brian Coburger was out and about a whole lot that 271 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 6: fateful morning both before and after the murders. Investigators claim 272 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 6: that they have phone pings that place Coburger near the 273 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 6: house the morning of the murders, and Coburger's defense team 274 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 6: is arguing that he was nowhere near the house when 275 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 6: the murders happened. What is so interesting here is that 276 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 6: the same data that the prosecution is going to use 277 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 6: to place Coburger at the scene is the exact same 278 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 6: data that the defense is going to use to dispute them. 279 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 2: I reached out to Scott Green, founder of Great Scott Enterprises. 280 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: For nearly forty years, he's been collecting, analyzing, and helping 281 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: to explain complex electronic evidence. 282 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: I collect the data, I analyze the data, I make 283 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: sense of the data, and then I present the data 284 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: in court, either to a jury or to the judge. 285 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: What we wanted to speak with you about is the 286 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: cell phone data. And all we hear about are the pings. 287 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: The pings. Brian Colberg, the alleged was pinging everywhere. Can 288 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: you please explain what are cell phone pings or signals? 289 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: And how specific are they? 290 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: So a ping in the way it's been used in 291 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 3: the media. And I read the articles with regards to 292 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 3: cell phones and towers, is a connection between a cell 293 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 3: phone and a tower. Those connections fall into three different categories. Generally, 294 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 3: they are a phone call that would ping off a 295 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: tower connect to a tower, and they're referred to as pings. 296 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,239 Speaker 3: So they occur when somebody makes a phone call, they 297 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 3: occur when somebody uses data, and they occur when somebody 298 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 3: sends a standard SMS or text message. As far as 299 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: how specific a ping is, the tower knows the direction 300 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: that the cell phone is from the tower. So what 301 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: you get out of the ping and out of the 302 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 3: cell phone carrier is a direction from the tower, generally 303 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 3: in a pie shaped area that shows the direction from 304 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: the tower that the cell phone is. And when you 305 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: have them moving through space and time, you can get 306 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 3: an idea as to where the cell phone is going 307 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: and how fast it's moving and some things like that. 308 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: You get some estimates out of that, but you don't 309 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: get an exact position out of the cell phone carrier information. 310 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: What I understood, as you described it, was that the 311 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 2: pings happen when something active is occurring a call, a text, 312 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: or using data. These pings also happen passively. I have 313 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 2: my phone here right now? Is this pinging? 314 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 3: Cell Phones and towers are communicating most of the time, 315 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: usually because there's data transactions between a cell phone and 316 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: a tower. That could be updates. It could be email 317 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: getting updated, or inbound or outbound data of some sort. 318 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: Understood. So in this case, the accused coburger wouldn't have 319 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: had to have been actively on his phone to ping. 320 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: It could be something in the background. Is that correct? 321 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 3: It could be something in the background that is generating 322 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 3: those pings. True. 323 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: I know you said direction and potential trajectory. And does 324 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 2: the radius depend upon how far apart the towers are. 325 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: So basically, could they spot me in my car within 326 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: a two block radius or is it a two mile radius? 327 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 3: Ah, So that's a great question. In the country outside 328 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 3: of cities, in rural areas, the cell phone transmit a 329 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 3: much longer distance than they do inside the cities. So 330 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 3: it depends where you are as far as how far 331 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: a cell tower will transmit. 332 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 2: In Moscow, Idaho, it's not in the country. It's certainly 333 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 2: it is in no way in a big city. But 334 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 2: there's two colleges right nearby, because I would imagine colleges 335 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: would need more power. 336 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 3: So here's an interesting thing. I drove past the University 337 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 3: of Arizona yesterday and one of the things that I 338 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 3: noticed is that there are a tremendous number of five 339 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 3: G towers around a university. In the country where the 340 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 3: accused was driving, there's probably a lot fewer. What's the 341 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 3: distance between those two locations. Somebody said ten. 342 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: Minutes, ten miles, about ten miles, So. 343 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 3: In the country, you're going to find that cell phone 344 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 3: towers can be miles apart and cover miles in both directions. 345 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: From a cell phone tower, they vary in direction based 346 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 3: up on geography and where people are and how the 347 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 3: cell phone carrier wants to cover the area. 348 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: This isn't specifically a technical question, so we can skip 349 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 2: over it if you want. But the accused is a 350 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 2: criminology PhD student. Is it surprising to you that, if 351 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 2: what's alleged is true, that he had his phone on 352 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: him the whole time? I mean, even I know that 353 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: my phone will leave a footprint. 354 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: It is surprising to me that someone with that background 355 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: would have their phone with them. Agree. I would think 356 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 3: somebody who has some intelligence about criminal backgrounds and criminology 357 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: would probably at that level at least know that it's 358 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: a bad idea to have your cell phone with you 359 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 3: when you commit a. 360 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: Current Yeah, it's just so incongruous. As a PhD candidate, 361 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 2: Coburger was also a teacher's assistant at Pullman Washington State University, 362 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: and we spoke with one of his students, and she's 363 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: not wrong. That's one of the things that gives her 364 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 2: pause on the alleged guilt is it's one oh one 365 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 2: to not do that. How frequently do pings update? Is 366 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 2: it a standard amount of time? Does it depend situationally? 367 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 3: Wow, it depends. Pings get updated differently based upon which 368 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 3: one of those three items is going on. You're going 369 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 3: to see every time there is a text message set, 370 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 3: you can see a connection to a tower. And every 371 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 3: time a cell phone call is initiated, or the cell 372 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 3: phone changes towers, or the call ends one of those 373 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: three things. When it's a phone call, you'll see a 374 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: different tower recorded by the cell phone carrier. Does that 375 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 3: make sense? 376 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: It does make sense. As a real example, here a 377 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: white sedan that the prosecution alleges is Coburger's. It was 378 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 2: seen passing by the victim's residence at three twenty nine 379 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 2: that same what via goal at four oh four and 380 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: at four twenty is seen leaving the area at high speed. 381 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: Can officials attempt to corroborate we see the car and 382 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 2: then go and check the tower to see if that 383 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 2: lines up? 384 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 3: So are you asking me if the law enforcement at 385 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 3: the time, can go do that or look back in history? 386 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: Go back in history. As a layman, I would want 387 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: to think, oh, can I corroborate that? With cell tower information? 388 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 3: You can corroborate the location of the cell phone if 389 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 3: it was in the car, they would be able to say, Okay, 390 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 3: it's in the car and it's moving, or it's in 391 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 3: the car and stationery if the cell phone is on 392 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: and communicating with the tower. Because in this case, we 393 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 3: see that the cell phone is connected at his home 394 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 3: to forty two am right and then at two forty seven, 395 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 3: so five minutes later it's moving and then get turned 396 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 3: off and then it gets turned back on for forty 397 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 3: eight south of Moscow, Idaho on State Highway ninety five. 398 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: In between that, if I understand the timeline and what's 399 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: listed here, the cell phone is off, so it's not 400 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: talking to the towers at all. Interestingly, the car is 401 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 3: a Kia. 402 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,719 Speaker 2: Right it's a Hondi Alantra. 403 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: A Hyundai Islandra. Okay, same company. Hyundai and Kia are 404 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 3: the same company. So I wonder if they took that 405 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 3: car part and looked for cell phone signals coming out 406 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 3: of that, because a lot of cars nowadays have cell 407 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 3: phones built into them and they're constantly communicating. 408 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 2: Without knowing the specifics of Coburger's car, was it common 409 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 2: for cars to be emitting signals? 410 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 3: A lot of cars in that timeframe, we're starting to 411 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: have cell phones built into them. One of the things 412 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: that happens in our world is that a lot of 413 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: devices are following us, and when those devices connect to things, 414 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 3: they get recorded. One of the things that has happened 415 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: in our world, and you'll notice this on Google Maps, 416 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 3: you'll notice this in other things that are used to 417 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 3: track us through space and time. Wi Fi signals have 418 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 3: been collected by Google as part of what they did 419 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 3: when they were mapping our world, and so you will 420 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 3: see when you are navigating your car and you turn 421 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 3: on Google Maps, it will say, if you want to 422 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 3: have a better navigation experience or something along those lines, 423 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 3: turn on Wi Fi. And the reason why it uses 424 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: that is now seeing Wi Fi connections that are from 425 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 3: homes that it passes by or businesses that it passes by, 426 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 3: and it adds that to the mix. Not only is 427 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 3: GPS very accurate, but it adds the Wi Fi signal 428 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 3: to the mix to track the vehicle or the phone 429 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 3: and display the map. 430 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: If a phone quote stops reporting to the network, does 431 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: that mean for one hundred percent that the phone was 432 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: turned off? Or could there be another explanation. 433 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 3: If a phone stops talking to the network, it could 434 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 3: be a host of things. It could be a distance 435 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 3: problem out in the forest, somewhere under a rock, or 436 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 3: inside a cave or something like that. However, for the 437 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 3: most part, my cell phone not communicating with a tower 438 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 3: is generally evidence that the cell phone is turned off 439 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 3: or an airplane mode. 440 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 2: Here is my last two questions that I have. And 441 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 2: I took an Uber the other day and I was 442 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 2: at the back of a grocery store and my Uber 443 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: driver called me and he said, I need you to 444 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 2: come to the front of the store. That's where I'm 445 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: going to be. So and I opened my Uber and 446 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 2: I could see myself walking just from the front to 447 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: the back of one store. Why do we have that 448 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 2: level of specificity for an uber but not here. 449 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: So a lot of apps, navigation apps uber lift use 450 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 3: GPS data, which is a much more accurate signal to 451 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 3: place you at a particular place. GPS is much more 452 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 3: accurate than these cell phone pings, much more accurate. 453 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 2: Why is GPS much more accurate than cell phone pings? 454 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 3: Cell phone pings will give you an area, this pie 455 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 3: shaped area where the cell phone is located. GPS data 456 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 3: can narrow that down to within feet. So a cell 457 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 3: phone sector is what they're technically called, a pie shaped 458 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 3: area could be many square miles. A GPS location is 459 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 3: going to generally be within feet. 460 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 2: And I guess it is that GPS is that specific 461 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: because that's its intention. Whereas cell phone towers are intended 462 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: to what allow our phones to communicate, right, but not 463 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: to track us. 464 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 3: So cell phone tower and they're broken up into sectors 465 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: so that the number of connections can be managed. GPS 466 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 3: data is more specific so that you can navigate. You 467 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: can be in a particular place and say I want 468 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 3: to go to this other place and it's going to 469 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 3: navigate you within generally within feet. 470 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: Looking forward to trial, so the defense and prosecution, to 471 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: our knowledge, they have to the public knowledge. There is 472 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 2: the same data exists. How are two different experts going 473 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 2: to read the same information and from there draw different conclusions. 474 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 3: Okay, so a little piece of this that you can 475 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 3: look at. One is ZX and the other is sell Hawk. 476 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 3: Those are two different products that both map where a 477 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 3: cell phone is. As far as this guy who's their 478 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 3: cell phone expert. 479 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: Ci Ray is the founder of ZX Corporation. 480 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's the guy who's going to testify, we 481 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 3: think yes. 482 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: The defense has said he will testify to corroborate Coburger's 483 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 2: alibi and say that he was not at the residence 484 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: because he was too far south. 485 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: We have two hours roughly between the cell phone being 486 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 3: connected in his home and the cell phone being connected 487 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 3: south of Moscow, Io. It's difficult for an expert to 488 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 3: say that the phone wasn't somewhere if it was off. 489 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: So we have two data points that are two hours apart. 490 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 3: It's difficult for any expert in either direction, prosecution or defense, 491 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: to prove or disprove where that cell phone is in 492 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 3: those two hours. How are you going to prove that 493 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: you can't prove a negative? You can't So they could say, yeah, 494 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 3: it's possible that between two forty seven and four forty 495 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 3: eight in the morning that he made it over to 496 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: this home and murdered people. But that's a lot of 497 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 3: time in between, a lot of time. I don't see 498 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: the defense and prosecution being very far apart of their 499 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 3: testimony because they are looking at the same data, and 500 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 3: the lack of data between two forty seven and four 501 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 3: to forty eight is just a lack of data going 502 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 3: to be difficult for either side to prove anything in 503 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: that timeframe. 504 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 2: It's so obvious what you said, and I don't know 505 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: how it hadn't occurred. Of course, there's a dearth. There 506 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 2: is no information. 507 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 3: A dearth is a perfect word to use. There's nothing, 508 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: there's nothing. So the timeline shows that there is no 509 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 3: data from the cell phone carrier between two forty seven 510 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 3: and four forty eight in the morning. 511 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 2: How do you think the cell phone evidence will be 512 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 2: received by a jury or how do you feel cell 513 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 2: phone evidence in general is received by juries. 514 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: As a person who presents cell phone evidence all the time, 515 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: younger juries are very receptive to sell phone evidence. They 516 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: use their phones all the time. They know that they're 517 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: a computer that carry around in their pocket or on 518 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 3: their head or in their purse. There certainly can be 519 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 3: older members of the jury that have a harder time 520 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 3: understanding that. Sometimes I run into older judges that have 521 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: a hard time understanding what that really means. 522 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 523 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: a moment. I continued my conversation with Kully Stimpson about 524 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: how he predicts the cell phone data and DNA evidence 525 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: will be presented at court, beginning with the process from 526 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: finding DNA at a crime scene, detying it to a 527 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: potential murder suspect, and how that ultimately is presented during trial. 528 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: In some murder cases, the motive is dead clear, no 529 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: pun intended. He wanted her, she didn't want him. Packed 530 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: at him. We get that two drug dealers go at 531 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: each other over turf, one kills the other. We get 532 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: that these are harder cases because here's a dude who 533 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: lives in a different state. He had no prior relationship 534 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: that we know of with any one of these people. 535 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: The government doesn't have to prove motive. But everyone in 536 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: the courtroom's sitting there and I can tell you I've 537 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: been there. Why did he do this? And I want 538 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: to state to you right here and now I don't 539 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: have to prove motive. Motive is not an element of 540 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: any of these crimes. And so when my colleague stands 541 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: up on the defense and suggests, what's the motive, that's 542 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: an interesting question. But we're not here to resolve that. 543 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: We're here to resolve whether he committed this crime and 544 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: whether I've proven to under reasonable without each and every 545 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: element of the offense to which he's been charged. This 546 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: isn't the who done it, and I don't have to 547 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: prove to you why he done it. 548 00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: That's so interesting because you hear in so many cases motive, motive, motive, motive, 549 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: but that's. 550 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: Not it's never an element. It's never an element. It's 551 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: the smoke cloud that's drifting around the courtroom in every 552 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: case like this, it's just hanging in the air. And 553 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: every time I was a defense counsel, it was motive, motive, motive. 554 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: They haven't proved motive. I don't know why they haven't 555 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: proved modi of this, because clearly there wasn't a motive, 556 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: and I'm playing the other game. You haven't heard one 557 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: ounce of evidence against my client about why you would 558 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: do something, why would have upstanding PhD candidate who has 559 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: everything in front of him do something like this. It's absurd, 560 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: and that's the kind of argument you're going to hear. 561 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: But it's not material, it's. 562 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: Not an element of the offense. Murders are driven by love, lust, power, 563 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: or money. Those are the big four. And then since 564 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: I'm a Shakespeare and I would add greed, because greed 565 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: is one of them as well. I watched the proceedings 566 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: in this for just a few minutes today in preparation 567 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: to chat with you, and it seemed like the prosecutor 568 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: is sort of a no nonsense older fella who's just 569 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: doing his job, and it seems like this public defender is, 570 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, doing what she can with a really tough case. 571 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: And clearly at this point, Colberger still wants his trump. 572 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if he changes his mind. I 573 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: would not be surprised if he changes his mind, because 574 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: I would suspect behind the scenes, this public defender is 575 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: going to the prosecuting Okay, what can we do here? 576 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: My guys willing to do this? You know, plead to 577 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: this if you're willing to cap confinement at this he 578 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: wants to be able to see, you know, sunshine before 579 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: he's dead. And if I was the government, depending on 580 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: the strength of the evidence, and I don't know the evidence, 581 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: nor to you, we only know what we've read, I 582 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: might say, yeah, I'm willing to discuss in theory a plea. 583 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: Of course, the families are going to have a say 584 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: in that, depending on what the state victim Bright statute says. 585 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: There's a lot of greens from the ball and the 586 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: cup here. You know, oftentimes you'd take your best shot 587 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: during pre trial motions when you're a defense counsel, and 588 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,479 Speaker 1: depending on how they turn out, then you go back 589 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: to your client and go, look, you know, we're over 590 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: for five is looking real bad for you? More than 591 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: happy to defend you. You know, I'm a fighter. I 592 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: don't know what the state law allows for. But in 593 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: the federal system and in some states, you get a 594 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: break on sentencing if you plead guilty, and the opposite 595 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: is true if you go to trial the judge. One 596 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: of the factors is that you not getting punished for 597 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: going to trial, but you don't get a break for 598 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: pleading guilty. Oh interesting, Yeah, they can't increase the punishment 599 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: because you exercised your right to have a trial, but 600 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: if you plead guilty, they can give you a break 601 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: for pleading guilty and not expending court time. 602 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: Right because I mean this case, if what I read 603 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 2: just the other day is accurate, it's already up over 604 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: three million dollars. 605 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: Which is a drop in the bucket for a big jurisdiction, 606 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: But for a little tiny jurisdiction like where they are, 607 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: they have never seen a case like this in the 608 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: history of that county. And so for a little county 609 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: like this that doesn't have a lot of crime to 610 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: have a big case like this with cell site location 611 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: information and DNA and all the rest, So with national attention, 612 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: they're going to go through some money. But you know, 613 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: justice shouldn't have a cost to it. The thing about 614 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: murder cases is somebody did it. Somebody did it, and 615 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: justice requires accountability in a murder case. And it's the 616 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: ultimate case because in a situation like this where they 617 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: were perfectly innocent, helpless young people with their whole lives 618 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: in front of them. But for victims who are children 619 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: and babies, these are the most sympathetic types of victims, 620 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: and so there's no reason for the government to give 621 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: the defendant an inch if they have a solid case. 622 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 2: I mean, people have been collecting DNA for a long time, 623 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: so it would seem like unless you're really messing up 624 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 2: on the collection, then if your DNA is on the sheath, 625 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 2: guess what you're probably there? How does the defense counter this? 626 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: There can be other innocent explanations for the presence of 627 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: a person's DNA at a crime scene other than the 628 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: fact that the perp And so you could I mean 629 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: I have asked myself, and I have seen in my 630 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: courtrooms when I was a judge or a prosecutor defense 631 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: counsel saying, well, okay, you're saying that the defendant's DNA 632 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: was found in this barracks room in the Navy. Yes 633 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: it was, And isn't the fact that the study groups 634 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: study in their rooms, Yes it is. So you can't 635 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: disprove that my client, the defendant, wasn't in the victim's 636 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: room as part of a study group, can you. Well, no, 637 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: I can't, not from a forensic standpoint. So you're trying 638 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: to create reasonable doubt, which is your job as a 639 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: defense counsel. And there are oftentimes innocent explanations for the 640 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: presence of someone's DNA at his crime scene. Now, are 641 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: there innocent explanations for the DNA of Brian Kohlberger found 642 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: on the knife sheath on the bloody bed sheets of 643 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,959 Speaker 1: an apartment in a different state. I have a very, very, 644 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: very hard time wrapping my head around how you create 645 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt to explain the presence of his DNA at 646 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: a murder scene in a difference state, in a kid's apartment. 647 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: So that's a big hurdle for the defense council. And 648 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: of course, so instead of attacking that, they're going after 649 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: the cell site location information and they're putting up an 650 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: alibi defense. If you have an alibi defense, you're required 651 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: to notify the government of your alibi within a certain 652 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: period of time before the trial and then give specifics 653 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: of what your alibi is because the government can then 654 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: try to go poke holes and find out if there's 655 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: any holes in your alibi defense. And we'll see how 656 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: the defense plays out. But it seems as if they've 657 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: created enough wiggle room in this loosey goosey alibi defense 658 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: that puts him driving around at random places at random 659 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: times in the middle of the night, in the general 660 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: location of the crime, but of course, I'm sure there 661 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: cell site location person is going to say, well, he 662 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: wasn't exactly at the place. But the problem is, this 663 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: guy had been to the crime scene multiple times according 664 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: to the cell site location information, and in all the 665 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: other times there he didn't turn his cell phone off, 666 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: and yet just coincidentally, on the night of the murder, 667 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: his cell phone turns off for a period of when 668 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: the murders were said to have happened, and then it 669 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: turns back on as he's heading back to his college. 670 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: It just doesn't look good for him. Oftentimes, in a 671 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: case where you have the defendant's DNA at the scene 672 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: of a crime, where there's no prior relationship between the 673 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: victim and the defendant and they're complete strangers, and it's 674 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 1: found in a very very inconvenient place for the defendant, 675 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: they end up pleating guilty. Because when you're the defense 676 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: counsel and you get that information and you understand what 677 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: it means, you finally have to come to Jesus talk 678 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: with your clients, say games up, you have a right 679 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: to a trial. Of course, I'll defend you, and I'll 680 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: give you a great defense. Notice I didn't ask you 681 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: whether you did it or not, so you can take 682 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: the stand say whatever you want. However, from my experience, 683 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: there is no reasonable explanation of why your DNA is 684 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 1: there except for the fact that you did it. I 685 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,479 Speaker 1: don't think the government's going to have hard I'm proving 686 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt that you did it, and most 687 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: defendants you know who are sit in that situation and 688 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: be like, okay, you know, and so they try to 689 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: get the best deal they can. 690 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it seems like they're going full bore. 691 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,760 Speaker 1: The problem is that, of course, go on the record, 692 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: this guy's presumed innocent, less proven guilty beyond a reasonable 693 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: doubt by illegal and competent evidence. He enjoys that presumption 694 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: of innocence through the entire trial. That said, the evidence 695 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: is overwhelming as we've seen it to the state for 696 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: guilt because not only do you have the police stopping 697 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: of the car and the cell site location information of 698 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: him what looks to be scouting out the crime scenes, 699 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 1: but you have people who were alive who he didn't kill, 700 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: who said a person looked like this and they picked 701 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,879 Speaker 1: him out, and then you have his DNA, and then 702 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: you have the cell side location information on the night 703 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: of and you have him turning the cell phone off. 704 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: Any two of those pieces of evidence alone would get 705 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: you close to beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the 706 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: DNA alone gets them to beyond your reasonable doubt. But 707 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: when you have all the other circumstantial and direct evidence, 708 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: I see this case as what's called a slow plea. 709 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: A slow plea is he's just guilty. Everyone knows he's guilty, 710 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: but he has a constitutional right to demand his trial, 711 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 1: and he's going forward with the trial. And of course 712 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: he's presumed innocent. I'll say that again, But to me, 713 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: this looks like a slow plea and a guy who's 714 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,280 Speaker 1: just not willing to accept the responsibility for his actions. 715 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: Maybe he'll be acquitted, I don't know, but it looks 716 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: like a slow plea to me. And so this will 717 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: be a battle. The experts on the cell site location 718 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: information that you know, the government will say he went 719 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: from one, two, three, four, five, and six he turned 720 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: it off between here, and that puts him at the 721 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: house on around the time of the murder. And the 722 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: defense will come up and say, yeah, we can't dispute 723 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: that he was there, but that could mean he was 724 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: way over here in this bubble. If I was the government, 725 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: I'd say, Okay, all right, let's just let's just let's 726 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: just pretend that everything the defense experts said is true, 727 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: and let's just throw out the cell side location information. 728 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: Here's all the other evidence that points out that he's 729 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: guilty beyond your in fact, let's take four other pieces off, 730 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: he's still guilty. Let's take nine pieces of itdence off. 731 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: He's still guilty. So I wouldn't play into it. I'd 732 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,399 Speaker 1: fight it hard, and then I would just talk about 733 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: is that reasonable, because that's not reasonable. 734 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 2: More on that next time. For more information on the 735 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 2: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KAT 736 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 2: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger, 737 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 2: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design 738 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 2: by Jeff Trois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker 739 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 2: is a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more 740 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 2: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 741 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Scott Green can 742 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 2: be found at Evidence Solutions, Inc. Headquartered in Tucson, Arizona, 743 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 2: with experts across the country. That's evidencesolutions dot com.