WEBVTT - Miracles Can Happen 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:06.000 This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:10.520 Chris Ayris and Lauren Zema Company from the home office 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.680 in Austin, Texas. Elsie, we have such a beautiful show 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.040 to share with everybody today. 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.599 When we heard about Kirsten and Jason Clawson's story in 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:22.800 an article in People magazine, we really wanted to have 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.840 them on. So Kirsten and Jason both lost their spouses 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:31.920 Valerie and Cody, to cancer, and then they found each 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.200 other and now they've gotten married and welcomed a new 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:40.120 baby girl, and it's just an incredible story of persevering 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.080 through grief finding joy on the other side. And the 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.080 tips that they gave us on how to do that, 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.879 the actionable pointers that they had, how to date, how 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.200 to support your friends going through grief, how to parent 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.240 through grief are such incredible takeaways because not only are 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.480 they living with grief, but actually Jason self is a therapist. 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.759 So I've just never learned so much about the grief 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.160 space in such a short amount of time. We cannot 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.680 wait for you guys to hear this. Here is our 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:12.039 chat with Kirsen and Jason. 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.480 Such a beautiful story. We read this article in People 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.600 Magazine and just thought, you know, the most dramatic podcast 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.920 ever despite the name, is actually about love and spreading love. 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.960 And what an amazing loving story the two of you 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:29.240 have give us kind of a broad overview of y'all's story. 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.640 Sure, So, Jason and I both lost our first spous 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.920 list to cancer. Jason lost his first wife, Valerie, to 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.679 colon cancer in twenty nineteen and I lost my first 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.640 husband to leukemia in twenty twenty. 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.760 And we kind of met. 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.680 Through a Facebook group that was dedicated to young widows 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:58.960 and widowers in our area, and we started to know 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:03.840 of each other through that group, and it turned out 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.640 that we both kind of felt ready to start. 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.400 Mingling again, dating again, and. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.560 So we ended up connecting on a on a dating app, 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:21.760 and yeah, when when Jason popped up online, we we 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:26.200 uh connected and and uh it was just kind of 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.200 magic from from there on out. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.400 We've been married for over two years and our little 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.280 miracle baby, Macy is a year and a half old. 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:36.560 So. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:44.399 Early. We got married in January and four months later, 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.400 Kirsen is on the phone calling me and saying, guess what, 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:53.200 I'm pregnant, and she's like, this can't be happening. I've 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.720 been told by doctors that I'm not supposed to have 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:01.280 kids and Parvard all that explain this, She says. I'm 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.120 I'm not happy with this. 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.480 Yeah, yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't happy with the news 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.760 because well, we're in our forties for one. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:13.640 And and uh, it just was I really thought that 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.119 it was going to be another experience of loss. Yeah, 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.600 and so I wasn't. I was really scared. I was 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.919 really scared, and I was I was pretty unhappy about it. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.840 And it has turned out she turned out to be. 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.280 You know, a very healthy baby and just a light 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.200 and a joy and a gift, and a completely unexpected 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:34.600 one at that. 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:36.480 So hence the miracle baby. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.920 Yes, yes, you never know what life's going to throw 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:41.680 at you, do you. 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.440 Yeah, we never. Yeah, we didn't expect this and we 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.160 were happy. Actually, before we got married, we talked about 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.200 are we okay with not having children? And we agreed. 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:56.280 We're like, yeah, we're in our forties, Yeah, that's totally fine. 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.320 We have two boys that take care of and all 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.680 of a sudden, there's miracle came out of nowhere. And 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.360 we always say the miracle that we prayed for to 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.960 have our spouse is healed. Didn't happen, But the miracle 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:12.360 that we got is the one that God wanted us 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.360 to be able to help heal our heart and bring 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:16.800 our family closer together. 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.560 I was going to ask, when did it change for 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.320 you guys, because I think women can so understand what 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.600 you're talking about, Kirsten, of that fear and if you've 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.400 been through grief, that fear of more loss. But when 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.520 did it change to realize like, Okay, wait, now we 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.240 have this new perspective on this was the miracle that 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:35.240 we were supposed. 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.239 To have when she was born. 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.800 I think I think it really took until she was 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.440 actually here for me to get to that space of Okay, 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.640 this really is our plan, this is our path. I 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.760 had embraced the pregnancy far earlier, but I was still 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:54.320 so scared. 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.000 The whole time. I was just I was so so scared. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.160 But when she came, it was like, oh, of course, 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.680 this is exactly what you're supposed to have. 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:08.880 I remember seeing her for the first time and. 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.120 This just being completely blown away. I think that's probably 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.359 true for any mother that has a baby, right is 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.800 you know, they welcome a child into the world and 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.719 it's this person that you know, you were supposed to 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.120 know your whole life is finally here, and that's just 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:24.960 kind of what it was. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.080 Well, I think, Yers, you just hit on something that 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.520 I talk so. I lost my dad when I was 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:31.880 in college, and I do a lot of work with 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.240 them grief and kids who have gone through grief, And 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.080 you just hit on something that I talk about with 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.359 people so much, which is timing. And I wonder if 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.440 you guys can speak to that a little bit because 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:43.600 I've spoken to my own mom a lot about like 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.320 timing and when she started dating after losing my dad, 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:49.080 and I think I've had to do a lot of 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.359 growing over the years to realize actually how long it 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.960 was going to take her. You know, I think grief's 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.400 different for everybody, and I so wanted her to be 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.200 happy and wanted her to heal, but she had to 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.760 do things in her own time. So can you guys 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.000 speak a little bit on that, the timing of like 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.360 when you knew and how you knew and how it 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.279 helped you find this new happiness. 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.080 Yeah, I think one thing that man Kirson talked a 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.120 lot about was you got to do your work to 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.680 be able to be in the position to be ready 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.400 to meet up with each other, because what we didn't 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.600 want to do is we didn't want to replace our spouse. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.360 There's this empty hole here that we're wanting to replace, 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:31.080 But we didn't necessarily want to find another valerie or 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.040 find another code because we are growing through this grief 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.000 and we're accepting this new reality and it comes with 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.560 like leaning into the discomfort of the situation and becoming 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.360 this new person. So we had to do We had 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.040 to go to therapy, we had to do our own work. 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:54.880 We had to emotionally, spiritually, physically do our work. So 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:59.520 we are emotionally mature and emotionally intelligent that when another 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.760 person comes into our lives, we can have those deeper conversations. 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.919 We can talk about each other's spouse without jealousy. We 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.440 can talk about each other's spouse and celebrate their life 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:16.000 and feel like they are a part of our life forever. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.120 They're not this spouse that is disappeared that will no 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.840 longer be a part of our life, but they are 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.280 in our lives forever. And it's because of the work 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.560 that we did in preparation to meet each other. So 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.200 when we met, it's like, oh, this makes sense. I mean, 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:37.120 our conversations are deeper. We don't talk about superficial things. 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.840 I mean, from the time I was texting her, I 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.560 just said, you know what, Kirsen, I don't like texting. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.960 I'm going to call you. I called her and we 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.960 talked for three hours the first time we met. And 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.480 I think that really goes to the work and the 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.320 depth of how much work we did in preparation to 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.320 be able to be ready for each other. Anything you 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.480 add vibe I would know. 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.960 I think that's really pretty spot on. I think for me, 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:07.680 I had well. 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.320 Probably what's important to know is that both of our 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.880 late spouses really encouraged us to find love again. And 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:21.240 that's not always the case, or I truly believe that 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.000 every you know, if somebody loves you, they want you 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.240 to be happy, even if they're here, even if they're 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.200 not here, they really would do want happiness for you. 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.400 But both of our late spouses, in very special ways, 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.400 really encouraged us to go forward and to continue to 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.480 live a happy life and to make them proud and 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.559 to find love again and so and that's one of 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.360 the reasons why we did do our work, is because 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.120 we knew that that was something that we needed to 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.680 do for us and for them. For me, the timing 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:56.200 was a surprise because it actually happened relatively fast. We 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.320 were married a little over a year after my late 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.160 husband passed away, and that was not my plan. 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:04.640 You know, I really saw myself being single for several years. 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.800 But it's but you just you just put that so perfectly, 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:11.440 and I'm going to take that with me of not 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.360 replacing someone doing the work to be ready to find 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:19.240 a new, healthy, happy relationship, but not just looking to 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.400 fill a void. That's one of the most brilliant things 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:22.480 I've ever heard about grief. 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.800 Thank you. Yeah, We've had to live that, and it's 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.040 it's I mean, one thing that we value to is 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.400 we still have I mean, look behind us. There's Cody's 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.400 pitcher behind us. Yeah, and there's Valeries pictures in the 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.080 front room. So they still are a part of our 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.120 life and honored and we still celebrate their anniversaries and 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.080 death days and it's just they're they're an extension to 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.200 us and they're just a big part of our family. 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:04.880 There's so much I want to ask you now because 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.600 so many people listening. Grief is something because Lauren and 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.200 I talk about this a lot. Grief is something that 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.719 will unfortunately touch all of us at some point in 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:18.640 our lives, and it's something that nobody talks about. It's 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:23.080 so taboo in hush hush, and then when somebody loses somebody, 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:25.280 you don't know what to say. I don't want to 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:30.120 say the wrong thing. So I'll start with for people 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:34.760 that have lost somebody, your advice on having the strength 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.760 and the power and to move on that your life 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.840 is not done because their life is over. So I. 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:48.319 Will say that I took the perspective of I don't 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.439 want my life to have lost all of its meaning 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.000 because they're not here anymore. I want to show the 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.640 world who I am because they were a part of it. 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.800 I want to show the world world that when Cody died, 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.840 I had this real, legitimate fear that the world was 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:07.280 going to forget that he ever lived. 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.240 And so my goal was to make sure the world 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:11.680 knew that he lived. 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.320 And if that was going to be through me being 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.319 a better person, me fulfilling his last wishes, me continuing 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.160 to honor it him however I needed to do that, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.960 I was going to do that, and I think that 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.439 taking that perspective is actually very healthy. 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:33.600 I think it's very healthy to find grief changes you. 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.640 It changes you in ways you'll never expect, but it 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.520 can change you in a way where you cultivate this beautiful, 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:47.480 lasting bond with the person that's passed away, and you 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.320 just you can just cultivate that and you grow that, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.640 and you do it by doing these really special themes 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.280 to honor them and to make sure the world remembers them. 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:57.880 That's what I think. What do you think? 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:02.480 Yeah, I think the biggest saying is Valerie was such 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:06.360 a light to so many people, and even even at 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.920 our funeral, everybody's like I was Valerie's best friend. No, 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:14.240 I was Valerie's best friend, and for that I didn't 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.200 want that to be forgotten. So one of the things 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.120 that me and my boys have done is we shortly 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:28.199 after about nine months into my wife passing away, is 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:32.600 we created a lemonade stand outside my house and we 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.640 wanted to have baskets. We wanted to raise money and 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.440 create these hope kits to to deliver to families that 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.720 were struggling just like us. So we raised over fifteen 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.040 hundred dollars and we started creating these kits in my 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.600 wife's honor, and we call them be like bal baskets, 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:57.120 and we begin to deliver them to people and embrace 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:01.240 them and help them remember my wife's love as well 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.400 as help them feel important at that moment. And to 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.080 be able to do that is kind of emotional time 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.760 out from what we are experiencing. But it was so 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.640 healing to be able to say we care about you, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.720 we feel you, we know how hard it is. And 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.760 to see my kids teaching their kids, it was just 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.040 beautiful to watch. And this has been so healing in 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.520 our journey that we continue on to give people these 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.000 kits and help people and continue to honor each other's 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.720 spouse because they are a part of us and they 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.240 help us strengthen our relationship by continuing to honor them. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.920 Yeah, and I will just add to that by saying, 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.679 you know, we've talked a little bit about doing your work. 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.920 What I don't think people understand, especially in the early 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.840 days and months, or even the first year or so 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.520 of grief, is that it requires work. You do. 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.200 Surviving is easy. 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.000 You get out from bed, you maybe brush your teeth 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.000 that day, maybe maybe not shower, grab. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:13:59.800 Something, eat, go back to it. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:05.760 Surviving this is easy, but to really grow through the grief, 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:07.160 you have to do your work. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.439 You have to do your work, whatever that is. 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.440 I think you guys have just so hit the nail 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.040 on the head in so many ways because I often 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.240 see people and this is I'm not you know, I'm 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.800 not judging them. Everybody's doing their best because grief is 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.600 the hardest thing will go through. But you know, sometimes 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.360 people might like, like it's awesome to have a support 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.600 group for example, as you guys have done. But then 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.120 I've seen people maybe like they can you can get 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.960 a little stuck in like sharing but not doing the 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.440 work and moving forward, you know, like you have to 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.160 add the therapy into the mix and then okay, you're 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.640 working on yourself. But what you just talked about giving 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.400 back with those kits and helping others, I mean maybe selfishly, 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.160 but for me, helping others has pushed me to a 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.040 new level of healing with grief. And wow, you guys 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.720 are what an example. So thank you and a. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.920 Great You had a good line there and I almost 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.360 thought you were going to say, you know, surviving is easy, 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.160 living and thriving is the difficult part. Anybody can just 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.280 survive and move along, but actually living again that is Yes, 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.400 it's very important. And when you know, one thing I've 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.600 learned from Lauren about grief is it's that river right 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.560 that's ever changing and ever flowing. And it sounds like 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:22.120 you have Oddly, you two are very equipped, but oftentimes 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.040 it would be one person who suffered loss the other 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.080 person hasn't. You two are very well equipped because you're 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.040 both suffering through this. But I also find it interesting 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:34.120 because you're suffering and how you're dealing with loss is 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.280 going to be different than the other person. So having 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.840 that grace and understanding with each other is still important 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.160 because it's always going to continue to change. 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.520 Yes, and it changes sometimes with the weather, the season changes, 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.560 and sometimes we don't understand why we're having a difficult 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.480 day or a bad day, but obviously we're where the 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.640 dates and the hard days that are coming up. But 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.120 when we're able to recognize when Kirsten is off or 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.880 having a bad day, we often check in with each 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.200 other and say, how are you doing, what are you 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.120 feeling today? What do you remember about this day? And 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.440 we say is there something I can do for you? 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.120 Can I listen to you? To be in tune to 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.160 be able to help her go through those moments, and 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.400 we're open enough to be able to communicate what each 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.480 other need in those moments. I think a good example 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:32.040 is we've been by each other's spouse's graves and Kirsen 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:37.280 will say, hey, I'm getting emotional talking about this. She'll say, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:39.560 do you. 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.800 Need a moment with Valerie? And I said, yes, I 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.000 need a moment. So she'll go take the kids and 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.200 I'll sit there and have my private moment with Valerie. 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.560 And that is so special to me that she's able 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.960 to honor and have us have that special moment. And 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.360 we do it all the time for each other because 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.280 we know how that is in their life. 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.760 And I don't think you need to know grief to 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.960 offer those moments either. I think it really is just 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.679 seeking to understand what the other person is feeling and 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:16.520 then allowing them the space to feel it without jealousy, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.120 or without resentment or you know, all of that those 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.120 other ugly things. 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.000 You don't need them, Yeah, you don't need them to 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.680 allow them the moments that they need to grieve. 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.480 Yeah, thank you so much for getting emotional. I love emotions. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:35.320 You made me cry, so that makes me happy. 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.879 Being emotional is how I've healed. So I've had to 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.600 be take off my mask of masculinity and say here 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.600 I am. Yeah, I'm here to heal. 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:46.720 How has that been. 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:53.760 It's been difficult, very difficult. Yeah. I mean something that 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.400 I teach people is about a healing team. And one 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:02.840 of the hardest moments of my life was nine months 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.879 after my wife. Life got too hard and I remember 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.360 taking a lunch break. I'm a clinical therapist, so I'm 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:15.280 actively helping people with difficult life changing events and it 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.200 just got too heavy, and I remember pulling out my phone, 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:23.240 texting people in my neighborhood family church group, and I said, 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.679 I'm not doing okay. Can you guys meet me at 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.840 my house. I just want to share you how hard 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:33.280 it will be. I sent it and then seven o'clock 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.800 came around that night, and all of a sudden, there 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:37.600 was a knock at the door and I opened it 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.520 up and I went, oh, no, I'm going to have 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.880 to talk. And the reality of it was I actually 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.360 called my own intervention and I'm sitting in my living room. 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.800 I'm looking around and I finally took off my mask 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.600 and I just opened up to my family, and right 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.320 there where I could just be real and honest, because 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.240 I think when I was wearing the mask, they couldn't 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.080 tell how hard I was suffering. They didn't really know 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:09.239 what's going on. But the moment I was vulnerable and 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.720 invited vulnerability, I gave them permission to come in and 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.280 say what they needed to do and start helping me 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.760 the ways I needed to. And that was pivotal in 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.800 the way that I changed my grief and then moving forward, 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:29.440 we created a team. Whenever I got struggling or whenever 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.440 I was having a hard day, I could text one 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.240 word to my team captain, and my team captain would 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.359 send a text out to people in my group, and 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.000 everybody had an assignment in that group that they could 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.280 take on, whether it be my parents would do my laundry, 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.399 someone would do the yard work, someone would be me food, 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.000 someone would take care of my kids, and the weight 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:56.280 would be taken off and I could breathe until I 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.240 can say I can do those again. I'm strong enough 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.720 to build back. And that was a process of building 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.840 resilience in my grief and doing my work that helped 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.119 me heal and put me in such a better place 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.920 to be a better father, be a better person, better therapist, 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:17.159 and a better spouse. Today. 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:19.119 Well, first of all, I want to say thank you 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.760 for sharing all that, because I think it's important for 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:26.280 people to know that, like therapists can't just therapy themselves. Actually, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.640 you're the second therapist we've had on talk about grief 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.680 who also experienced loss themselves. And you know, there's part 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:35.919 as a non therapist. I think there's part of me 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.280 that goes but wait, can't you just recognize what's wrong 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:39.520 in yourself and fix yourself? 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:45.320 But right, yeah, exactly, can't look at the mirror and say, Jason, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:46.520 tell me how you really be? 0:20:46.760 --> 0:21:01.440 Yeah, before I let you guys go, you mentioned you Jason, 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:06.680 you had kids. How has that been? How did you 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.480 guys work on that with loss and the kids, Kirsten 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.280 and both of you. And advice again for people that 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.320 you know are trying to move on. But that's another 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:17.800 kind of obstacle and hurdle you have to overcome. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.120 Funny, because we were just talking about this last night. 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.560 I have a friend from high school whose husband just 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.600 passed away from cancer, and she reached out asking, you know, 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.320 I've got three kids, how do I not project my grief, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:31.840 how do I keep parenting and grief? 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:33.800 So we were just talking about how do you bring 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.560 somebody new into a relationship when they're still missing their 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.720 dad or their mom exactly. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.439 You know what. Boston, he had a really good relationship 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:46.600 with my wife and he's our oldest, he's seventeen right now. 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:51.240 But we've had to do a couple things. My seventeen 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.119 year old and my eleven year old, they process griefs 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:58.000 so differently. Where Boston goes internal, he doesn't say a word, 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:03.040 he's silent, and then my other Cooper, he's really behaviorally. 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:06.960 He's acting out and screaming. I something's going on, and 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.919 I don't know what's going on. So one thing that 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:12.400 I had to do is I had to figure out 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.240 I had to understand that, and then I had to 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.360 figure out a way to be able to help them 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:21.959 communicate and share without me being the therapist and asking 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.959 them questions. We had to do some creative ways of 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:30.000 processing their emotions where we did art. We sat down 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:33.000 at the kitchen table and I gave them a question 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:35.760 and they would create and draw something that helped them 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:40.480 express themselves. But so doing different things to help them 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:45.560 was so helpful. And then with Boston, I think we 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:50.879