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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast where

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Speaker 2: I Robert Evans, was just bearing my soul to my guest,

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Speaker 2: the cartoonist Randy Millholland, about the fact that I missed

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Speaker 2: drawing cartoons. I just brought up the great Aesop rock

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Speaker 2: song Rings, which is about like realizing that drawing is

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Speaker 2: the thing you used to do and being kind of

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Speaker 2: quietly devastated by that grifter.

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Speaker 3: At first, I was like, no, no, yes, I'm a cartoonist,

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Speaker 3: so you know, it's the thing.

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Speaker 2: Like I alwaysknew I wanted to write, and I had

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Speaker 2: initially wanted to do that as like a cartoonist because

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Speaker 2: I was kind of like coming into my adolescence the

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Speaker 2: same age that like Hank was when he's watching these

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Speaker 2: yearly Disney Disney cartoons. I was reading like first generation webcomics, right,

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Speaker 2: like Sluggy freelance and shit like that. That, like there's

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Speaker 2: people who were able to like make a living cartooning

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Speaker 2: on the Internet. And I was always like, well, that

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Speaker 2: seems like the way to do it. What a what

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Speaker 2: a lush, lavish life these web comic artists. Oh, one

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Speaker 2: day that'll be me.

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Speaker 3: I did have someone's like sending an angry email, like

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Speaker 3: I know that you, you know, are so comfortable in

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Speaker 3: your mansion. I was living in an hour of cartoons.

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Speaker 3: I was living in a one room apartment at the time.

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Speaker 3: Like I I guess, uh cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this there's this Nazi cartoon and it's problematic

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Speaker 2: and it's I'll give you one guess as to like

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Speaker 2: who the they is, But like the text underneath this

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Speaker 2: very problematic art is like, if you want to know

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Speaker 2: who rules you, look at who you're not allowed to criticize.

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Speaker 2: And I want to replace the racial caricatures with just

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Speaker 2: like a guy drawing a cartoon, like the secret masters

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Speaker 2: of the world Web comic artists.

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Speaker 3: They rule us all unhappiness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the petty arcade guys, the sweet guy. Though I

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Speaker 2: will say I have not met any of them. I

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Speaker 2: did see Will Wheaton once at Penny Arcade Expo, and

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Speaker 2: I nearly took my vengeance on him for what he

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Speaker 2: did to that poor space captain in that fourth season

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Speaker 2: episode of Star Trek The Next Generation Unforgivable, Unforgivable Will.

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Speaker 3: First time I ever met Will Wheaton, I told him

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Speaker 3: because he never in the same age I was like,

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Speaker 3: you know, when we were kids, I was always so

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Speaker 3: jealous of you because you were on the Starship Enterprise.

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Speaker 3: And he's like, look, however cool you think it was.

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Speaker 3: It was way cooler and you watch I was like,

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Speaker 3: damn it, dude.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, he got to know Riker, He got to

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Speaker 2: watch that man reinvent sitting down on chairs.

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Speaker 3: Never been done the same since, really hasn't. That was

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Speaker 3: the h I think that's really what taught usuals.

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Speaker 2: That was the Manhattan Project for sitting down. Uh so

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Speaker 2: we're back in the story of Hank Katch him. When

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Speaker 2: we last left off, his wife Alice had left him.

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Speaker 2: He blames this on her temperamental irish nature, which he

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Speaker 2: also blames her alcoholism on. And this is not fair,

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Speaker 2: but she is an alcoholic right now. I don't think

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Speaker 2: she's an alcoholic, she's irish. I think she's an alcoholic

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Speaker 2: because it was the fifties and who wasn't right, like

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Speaker 2: a health nut ended every day with a full pint

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Speaker 2: glass of straight bourbon. That was the way people lived.

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Speaker 3: Like Martini's in barbiturate field bun diet hills were a

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Speaker 3: way of life.

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Speaker 2: You have called where this is going? Because she is

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Speaker 2: unfortunately naming barbituates and alcohol, which listeners don't do. This

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Speaker 2: has been a long digression from the fact that Hank

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Speaker 2: Ketchum is going to blame every problem that his wife

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Speaker 2: has on the fact that she's Irish. Now, look, she

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Speaker 2: is an alcoholic. I am sure that was a contributing

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Speaker 2: factor to why their marriage didn't work. But I also

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Speaker 2: suspect a contributing factor to her alcoholism was the fact

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Speaker 2: that her husband did not want her or their child

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Speaker 2: around and preferred spending time with a fake family that

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Speaker 2: he had drawn to spending time with his actual family.

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Speaker 2: I can see how that might make a problem worse. Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm not inside this marriage. It couldn't helped, right, not really.

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Speaker 2: Now there are some other possible clues as to what's

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Speaker 2: wrong in this marriage from some of Hank's early cartoons.

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Speaker 2: From that Seattle Times article quote, Dennis persistently tries to

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Speaker 2: drive a wedge between Henry and Alice by exposing their flirtations.

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Speaker 2: He narks out Dad on the beach to a furious Alice. Boy,

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Speaker 2: did we meet a pretty girl? Her name was Sally Holt.

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Speaker 2: I forget her phone number. Likewise, he deals poor Henry

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Speaker 2: another blow to his masculinity in front of Henry's male friend.

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Speaker 2: If you're so handy, how come mom had the man

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Speaker 2: next door come fix the leg on the card table?

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Speaker 3: God damn.

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Speaker 2: We get a couple things from this here. For one thing,

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Speaker 2: he is kind of hinting at this like constant suspicion

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Speaker 2: of infidelity that may have been a factor in their relationship.

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Speaker 2: But also, to make this more devastating, again, Dennis is

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Speaker 2: a kid and aware of the cartoon that's coming out.

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Speaker 2: His parents break up and his dad starts drawing cartoons

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Speaker 2: about he and his wife fighting. Where the cause of

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Speaker 2: the fighting is Dennis. Now, that could fuck with your

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Speaker 2: head a little as a kid, right, that's the cardoon

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Speaker 2: fuck that that could do some When we talk about

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Speaker 2: the ethics of like basic stuff on your life, you

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Speaker 2: know that's generally okay, But maybe if you're a parent,

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Speaker 2: don't blame the cartoon version of your son for the

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Speaker 2: problems of your marriage. That might hurt them.

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Speaker 3: Actually, that could Everyone gets the newspaper. Yes, every kid

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Speaker 3: reads the comics. Yeah, and there's no ways kids his

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Speaker 3: friends didn't know his dad drew this comic.

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Speaker 2: No, No, this is like, honestly, there's really not much

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Speaker 2: like like mister Beast is probably like in terms of

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Speaker 2: like his level of popularity, the closest we have to

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Speaker 2: somebody like Hank Ketchum in terms of the actual penetration

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Speaker 2: of a single piece of children's media in the time, right,

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Speaker 2: like it's so popular, and yeah, this would be like

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Speaker 2: a pretty fucked up thing to deal with as a kid,

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Speaker 2: in addition to like dealing with the fact that your

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Speaker 2: parents are splitting up and things are about to get

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Speaker 2: a lot worse because Alice leaving brings an immediate threat

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Speaker 2: to Hank Ketchum's life, which is that since they're split

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Speaker 2: up now, he's gonna wind up with partial custody at

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Speaker 2: least of his son, And partial custody means you might

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Speaker 2: have to spend time parenting that kid, and that is

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Speaker 2: not a thing Hank wants to do.

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Speaker 3: Right, No, no, No, father in the fifties is into

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Speaker 3: that idea.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not so as soon as the two split up

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Speaker 2: like that same year, Hank sends twelve year old Dennis

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Speaker 2: to live at a private boarding school. And here's how

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Speaker 2: Hank describes the reasoning behind this decision. He suffered severe

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Speaker 2: learning disabilities that were not being properly addressed by the family.

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Speaker 2: His mother too caught up in luncheon's teas and bouts

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Speaker 2: with demon rum, couldn't focus seriously on much of anything.

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Speaker 2: His well intentioned father was buried in creative work and

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Speaker 2: wasn't spending time with his small family. And like, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of like you try to give yourself a little Like, well,

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Speaker 2: I also didn't do enough, but like, yeah, his mom

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Speaker 2: is all going out to lunch all the time, and

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Speaker 2: his dad is well intentioned, but he's like two busy

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Speaker 2: joint cartoons to raise his child, and it's most messed

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Speaker 2: up here. I have never seen any real supposition as

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Speaker 2: to what Dennis's learning disabilities may have been. He's not

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Speaker 2: diagnosed with anything as far as I can tell, given

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Speaker 2: state of things in that period of time, I think

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Speaker 2: there's a very good chance he didn't have a learning disability.

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Speaker 2: He was like acting out and having trouble in school

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Speaker 2: because his home life was really difficult, and when things

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Speaker 2: got tough, his dad sends him away. Right, Like that

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Speaker 2: makes more sense to me than any kind of disability

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Speaker 2: you might have had.

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Speaker 3: He was an upset child. He was a child, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: divorce was so taboo in the fifties and there's no way. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like other kids didn't know. I'm sure his life was

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Speaker 3: kind of hellish.

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Speaker 2: He's dealing with that, right, like the fact that this

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Speaker 2: is a taboo thing. It's so unprecedented seeming to him.

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Speaker 2: And also again, his mom is an alcoholic, and that's

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Speaker 2: also a thing to across to bear as a child, right.

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Speaker 3: He is the victim in the situation.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and Dennis is We have the actual Dinnis's recollections

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Speaker 2: of this period of his childhood, and he would later

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Speaker 2: tell People Magazine, I didn't know what was going on,

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Speaker 2: except that I felt Dad wanted me out of the way,

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Speaker 2: which is like a devastating way to feed.

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Speaker 3: No child, no child feel that way.

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Speaker 2: Especially if you are your dad's meal ticket. He's getting

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Speaker 2: rich off of a pretend version of you, and he

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Speaker 2: won't even raise you like that's real, real bad. So

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Speaker 2: this childhood nightmare is exacerbated by the fact that Dennis

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Speaker 2: the Menace the cartoon is hugely popular among kids of

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Speaker 2: his age group, and whenever they found out that he

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Speaker 2: was the original Dennist, he became the source of unwanted attention.

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Speaker 2: Years later, Hank would cop to some of this and

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Speaker 2: the effect that it had on his son, telling the

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Speaker 2: Washington Post, these things happened, which they don't. They never

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Speaker 2: happened to another kid, Hank. No one else has ever

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Speaker 2: gone through what your son did.

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Speaker 3: Look like at Phill Keene and his kids, who he

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Speaker 3: based the Family Circus off of. Yeah, Glenn and Gil

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Speaker 3: Keen became cartoonists, like he was very proud of them.

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Speaker 3: They apparently had a really good life. So there's an

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Speaker 3: option here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you can base things on your life. Maybe

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Speaker 2: not this way. No, Yeah, And even honestly, if he'd

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Speaker 2: done everything the same with the comic but just kept

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Speaker 2: his son and raised him, it probably would have been fine.

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Speaker 2: But that's not what he's gonna do. Hank would add.

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Speaker 2: This was even worse because his name was used. He

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Speaker 2: was brought an unwillingly and unknowingly, and it confused him.

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Speaker 2: And like, yeah, Hank, but I think what confused him

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Speaker 2: more was you just not being there because you're his dad.

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Speaker 2: So Alice, again, this is I hinted at this earlier.

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Speaker 2: This is the fifties. She is an alcoholic, and like

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Speaker 2: every person who drinks too much in the fifties, she's

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Speaker 2: also taking too many barbituates. Right, this is a great

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Speaker 2: way to get really fucked up, and it's a great

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Speaker 2: way to die suddenly, which unfortunately she does a few

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Speaker 2: months after he starts boarding school. The same year his

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Speaker 2: parents break up, the same year he sent away to

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Speaker 2: boarding school, his mom dies driving past Mount Shasta from

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Speaker 2: an interaction of alcohol and barbituates. This is unfathomably devastating

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Speaker 2: for any child. Right, in the best case scenario, your

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Speaker 2: mom dying suddenly is like the worst moment of your

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Speaker 2: childhood obviously, right, you know, like that's the it's horrible

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Speaker 2: let alone, like the fact that he is dealing with

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Speaker 2: this and the breakup of his parents, and the fact

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Speaker 2: that he has been sent to live alone at like

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Speaker 2: a boarding school, right, and that his dad blames it

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Speaker 2: on the fact that he has a bad brain.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's what a learning disability is, but

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Speaker 2: that's very much how people talk about this.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that in private, that was not how his

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Speaker 3: father termed it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the fifties, not in the fifties. He's not being

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Speaker 2: woke about this, right, And Hank is he's not an

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Speaker 2: expert on tact and child rearing. So when again there's

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Speaker 2: no internet, right, there's phone service and stuff, but like,

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Speaker 2: as a kid, you're not connected to the world. Dennis

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Speaker 2: is locked away at this school, his mom dies, and

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Speaker 2: his dad decides not to tell him what he doesn't

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Speaker 2: let him know, and Hank in his autobiography is like,

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Speaker 2: I just couldn't bring myself to break the news over

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Speaker 2: the phone, right, which like, well, you're rich there, go

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Speaker 2: tell I get that, Like, yeah, maybe you want to

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Speaker 2: tell him in person, go be with your boy. But

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Speaker 2: he doesn't want to do that either, So instead of

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Speaker 2: like going to see his son and telling him or

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Speaker 2: calling him and telling him, he waits until the boy's

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Speaker 2: mother is buried and then lets him know. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, your mom's dad, sorry, bro, if like this,

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Speaker 2: that's such a devastating, traumatizing way to handle that, Like

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Speaker 2: not only are you alone, not only is your mom

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Speaker 2: dad and we're split up, but like I'm not even

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Speaker 2: gonna tell you until she's buried, And my god, that

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Speaker 2: is so cruel. That's that is that's very abusive. Yeah, man,

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Speaker 2: that's like we just talked about Steve Jobs being a

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Speaker 2: bad dad. I don't think he would have done this,

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Speaker 2: like he would have let the kid know that mom

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Speaker 2: was dead. That's a ship, Dad, that Jesus and like

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Speaker 2: this this the fact that he's not able to go

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Speaker 2: to the funeral. Dennis would later say, fox him up right.

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Speaker 2: Quote Mom had always been there when I needed her.

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Speaker 2: I would have dealt with losing her a lot better

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Speaker 2: had I been able to attend her funeral. Obviously, even

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Speaker 2: in the fifties, most parents don't need that explained to them.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the kids should be at the funeral. They

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Speaker 2: should have the option at least.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, Like, I can't even imagine. How like

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Speaker 3: when you're that age, like twelve, like well a normal

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Speaker 3: twelve or thirteen year old, life is hard. Your body

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Speaker 3: is changing, nothing makes sense. Kids are mean as shit.

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Speaker 3: You don't see your parents, but your parents are divorced

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Speaker 3: when that's unusual. You're sent across the country to a

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Speaker 3: born school. You know your mom's an alcoholic. You're probably

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Speaker 3: doing worse and it's not going great. And then one day, oh,

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Speaker 3: by the way, your mom is in the ground. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you didn't get to say goodbye.

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Speaker 2: Look, KD, I got good news and bad news. Bad

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Speaker 2: news mom's dead. Good news. You don't gotta go shopping

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Speaker 2: for a suit funeral's already done. I took care of

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Speaker 2: that for you, buddy. Have a good time being abandoned.

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Speaker 3: No more awkward holidays.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you live in the school now. Yeah you're your

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Speaker 2: mom sober God only marginally worse than what he actually did.

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Speaker 2: So for his part, Hank is savvy enough in his

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Speaker 2: autobiography to know that describing this story the way it

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Speaker 2: actually happened would sound bad, so he explains her death

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Speaker 2: in his autobiography in this rather baffling passage, the little

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Speaker 2: girl from Malden that's his wife tried valiantly to cope.

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Speaker 2: She was a splendid wife and a loving mother, but

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Speaker 2: the world was spinning too quickly for her. She had

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Speaker 2: nothing to hold her steady except the relief she found

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Speaker 2: in barbituates and alcohol. My patients and knowledge of the

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Speaker 2: disease were woefully lacking, and tragically, she succumbed shortly after

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Speaker 2: her fortieth birthday.

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Speaker 3: Cool that poetry doesn't really help. No.

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Speaker 2: First off, he's nice in this paragraph to her she

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Speaker 2: was a great wife and mother, but like it comes

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Speaker 2: one paragraph after, he says she wasn't there for her

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Speaker 2: her son because of the demon rum and all of

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Speaker 2: those luncheons, So I don't really believe that he felt

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Speaker 2: this way about her. And then the instant like the

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Speaker 2: next thing that happens in this book, after he says

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Speaker 2: that she dies tragically, is not him talking about the

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Speaker 2: conversations he has with his son, you know, his attempts

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Speaker 2: to cope with grief himself, his attempts to help his

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Speaker 2: son deal with this. It is a sub chapter called

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Speaker 2: blind Rebound Again, and this is literally about a rebound

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Speaker 2: relationship he has. He goes from my wife died and

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Speaker 2: not to Here's what happened to my son, Here's how

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Speaker 2: I talked to him anything. He doesn't say anything about

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Speaker 2: his kid at all, about the kid they share. That

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Speaker 2: is the inspiration for the comic. That is why he

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Speaker 2: has an autobiography. He goes to talking about a lady

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Speaker 2: he wanted to fuck. This story starts at Disneyland where

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Speaker 2: he's like, he's at Disneyland and he sees a young

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Speaker 2: man who's alone and it makes him sad and it

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Speaker 2: reminds him that it's nice to be with somebody, right.

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Speaker 2: It was a sad sight and reminded me how much

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Speaker 2: I depend on being with someone. This must be a

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Speaker 2: reaction to all the crummy rooming houses and lonely weekends

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Speaker 2: and holidays. I spent feeling sorry for myself, no question

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Speaker 2: about it. I'd make a lousy monk.

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Speaker 3: I would like to dig him up. He's so bad,

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Speaker 3: punch him. What the fuck?

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Speaker 2: It's such an evil moon man way of talking about,

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Speaker 2: like your wife dying and abandoning your son. I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, I completely gave up on our responsibilities as

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Speaker 2: a father. But then at Disney World I realized having

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Speaker 2: sex is nice.

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Speaker 3: There is no empathy in this man.

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Speaker 2: It's such a vile person.

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Speaker 3: This is Scott Adams level of like I don't see

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Speaker 3: beyond my own day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, at least you know, I don't know if

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Speaker 2: this is true. But well, no, Scott, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to say at least with Scott Adams, I will say

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Speaker 2: nothing for you.

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Speaker 3: Scott good good.

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Speaker 2: So look, I want to be clear here. I don't

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Speaker 2: think he had a responsibility to stay in that marriage.

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Speaker 2: I don't think anybody has.

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Speaker 3: A responsibility unhappy.

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Speaker 2: Marriage, whether or not they have a kid. But I

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Speaker 2: do think that if the mother of your child dies,

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Speaker 2: your job at that point, even if you're split up,

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Speaker 2: is to focus more on that kid, right, because they've

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Speaker 2: lost their mother and that's what parents should do. Your

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Speaker 2: job is not to abandon them. So you can go

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Speaker 2: get laid at disney World like that is the acceptable

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Speaker 2: thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Going to Disneyland to get some strange Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Kind of weird, bizarre, bizarre, Robert, I really.

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Speaker 1: Am going to revisit my take on titling for this thing.

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Speaker 1: You can do the history's greatest monster.

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Speaker 2: The history's greatest monster. For the tennis the menace guy,

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Speaker 2: you can do that.

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know who else? Sophie is history's greatest monster?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Is it capitalism?

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Speaker 2: Our sponsors? Yeah, because they made you listen to this. Ah, everybody,

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Speaker 2: we're back and we're just having a great time.

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Speaker 3: Those are as in services, I feel contented.

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Speaker 2: Dennis is enduring one of the most traumatic childhood experiences

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Speaker 2: I can conceive of, and while he's doing this alone

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Speaker 2: at a boarding school, his dad agrees to go on

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Speaker 2: a blind date with a stewardess named joe Anne Stevens

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Speaker 2: now Kank is clear that all he knows when he

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Speaker 2: books this date is that she's a stewardess, and he

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Speaker 2: informs us that people in his day called stewardess's stew's.

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Speaker 2: I've actually read a lot about air travel in this

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Speaker 2: period of time. I've never heard this before. I'm not

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Speaker 2: gonna say he's wrong, but that's a stupid thing to

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Speaker 2: call a stewardess.

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Speaker 3: That sounds like something he called them, and he wants

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Speaker 3: to it to sound like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Says stew's, stew's. What a weird thing to call a stewardess.

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Speaker 2: You see those stews on the flight? Hey, STU, bring

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Speaker 2: me some STU? What a weird What a weird time

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Speaker 2: that was?

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Speaker 3: I hate everything about that.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna try that next time I'm on a plane,

361
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Speaker 2: I'm gonna call the stewardess or stewardess STU, yat me

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Speaker 2: some drinks.

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Speaker 1: I feel like they should immediately go on to strike

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Speaker 1: the first time STU is announced.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that that's a strike worthy thing, and they can

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Speaker 2: shut down the whole country. We saw it happen under Trump, right, yep.

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Speaker 2: Stewardesses have a lot of power for stewart. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what the there's probably another turn flight attendant, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: what are you gonna call them? You can't call them

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Speaker 2: stews now, Flindant's that's a terrible thing to call them

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Speaker 2: better than Stew's.

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Speaker 1: Arguable, I agree it's better than Stew's.

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Speaker 2: So this lady, Joanne Stevens works when he meets her,

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Speaker 2: she's a stewardess on the specially chartered jet the Nixon

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Speaker 2: administration is using the campaign. I know, I know, but

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Speaker 2: I mean I will say for joe Anne that you

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Speaker 2: must have hazard pay for that, the degree of harassment

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Speaker 2: you have to encounter as a fifty stewardess on the

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Speaker 2: Nixon plane.

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Speaker 3: There is no part of her that wasn't.

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Speaker 2: Pinched, indescribable. And Hank, by the way, very much a

382
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Speaker 2: Nixon fan. He describes Yeah, He describes himself as being

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00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,199
Speaker 2: intoxicated by joe Anne's free spirit lifestyle and deciding that

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Speaker 2: her influence convinced him it was time for him to travel,

385
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,439
Speaker 2: and this, eventually, through a somewhat cecuitous route, leads to

386
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 2: him embarking on a new life overseas. He and Joanne

387
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,959
Speaker 2: get married, and he moves to Switzerland. To his credit,

388
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Speaker 2: he does not leave Dennis behind. To his end, not credit,

389
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 2: he does something a little worse. Here's how a People

390
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,639
Speaker 2: magazine article in nineteen ninety three describes what happened next.

391
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 2: Dennis was sent to a local boarding school, where, already

392
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Speaker 2: a slow student, he had even more difficulty learning foreign languages.

393
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 2: His stepmother was unsympathetic. Joanne was unused to children, says Hank.

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Speaker 2: She and Dennis didn't get along. What's unsaid here is

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Speaker 2: that not only does Hank take joe anne being unused

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Speaker 2: to children as an excuse to send his son back

397
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Speaker 2: to the US, he does so pulls him out of

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Speaker 2: whatever life he has in the States at a boarding school,

399
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 2: puts him in this Swiss boarding school, makes fun of

400
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 2: him basically for not being smart enough to pick up

401
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 2: German overnight, and then when his new fling is like

402
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,400
Speaker 2: I don't really like kids, he sends his son back

403
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Speaker 2: to an American boarding school alone on his birthday.

404
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 3: What the fuck?

405
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 2: This is like a psychological experiment for like how badly

406
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: can you fuck up a child?

407
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 3: This is mommy dearest level shit, It's really bad.

408
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 2: Like I was like, can you hang most of an

409
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: episode on like how bad apparent one guy was to

410
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 2: one kid? And I guess you can because he is

411
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 2: such a bad dad.

412
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 3: Did he have a checklist of like well, no, let's

413
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 3: just go fuck it all up. Yeah?

414
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, is this guy like philipz Embardo secretly like carrying

415
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 2: out some fucked up experiment for unclear reasons. Dennis eventually

416
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,919
Speaker 2: graduated from boarding school in nineteen sixty six, two years

417
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 2: behind his original class. Hank and Joe Anne devoid a

418
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 2: few years after this, and Hank remarried a woman named

419
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 2: or remarried to a woman named Rolanda.

420
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 3: Uh oh, so he basically sent his kid away for

421
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 3: a marriage that even last.

422
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 2: Yes, that doesn't last. The marriage with Rolanda does better.

423
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 2: He has two children with her, and he does parent them.

424
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Speaker 2: I'll give him this. He is much better with these kids,

425
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,720
Speaker 2: from everything we know, than he was with his first two,

426
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: which doesn't really make up for not or with his

427
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 2: first son, which doesn't really make up for it. I

428
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 2: found a two bar, Robert, Yeah, not a high bar.

429
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 2: I found an old two thousand and one article in

430
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Speaker 2: the Pittsburgh Post Gazette by Sharon Randall, who talked to

431
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: Hank before his death, and he expressed some regret here

432
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: quote pausing a moment to rearrange some pencils on his desk,

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00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: he added, sometimes young fathers scrambling to make a living,

434
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: to climb the ladder. Leave it to the mother to

435
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: do all the parental things. But you get back what

436
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: you put into a child. It's like a piano. If

437
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 2: you don't give it much attention, you won't get much

438
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 2: out of it. And I actually you could frame that

439
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 2: as growth, but I actually think that's bad because like

440
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 2: you don't you shouldn't take care of your child because

441
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: you get something from it. It's because that life you're

442
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: responsible for. You helped create it, so you should take

443
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 2: care of it as well as you can.

444
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 3: I have a child, yeah six. I take her to

445
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 3: all of her speech therapy appointments, I do her doctor

446
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 3: appointments I do. I have no guarantee she will take

447
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 3: care of every one day, and if not her fucking job,

448
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,719
Speaker 3: she may she may turn eight things like you know what,

449
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: I'm out by old man. That's her right. I'll be heartbroken,

450
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 3: I will be shattered, but it's her right. I didn't

451
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 3: have a kid for an investment. I had a kid

452
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 3: because I wanted to have a kid and I was

453
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 3: able to. I have a partner who wanted to have

454
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 3: a child as well.

455
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 2: I am a strong believer in that children have no

456
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: inherent responsibility to their parents. You did not ask to

457
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 2: be brought into the world. You are not in debt

458
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 2: to them. Parents have an inherent response. If you're going

459
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: to create life, you have a responsibility to it, right,

460
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: And he just ad gates it in the case of

461
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 2: one of his kids. And then he's like, I was

462
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: too interested in my career, which was based on my

463
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: son to raise my son. He's like a piano, which

464
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: is also fucked up because like he actually got a

465
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 2: lot more out of his son, his first son, than

466
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: he did the kids he actually raised because his first

467
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 2: son is his meal ticket. But whatever I mean.

468
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, literally, the destroyed childhood of his first child r

469
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 3: paid for the childhoods of all the other kids afterwards.

470
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so it works out well for them, right.

471
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 2: So for Hank's part, the worse he was to his son,

472
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: the better his cartoon Boy tended to do. In nineteen

473
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: fifty nine, it inspired a live action adaptation, which is like,

474
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: He's one of the first cartoon might have been the first.

475
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was the first, but it

476
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: was certainly one of the first cartoons to get like

477
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: a live action adaptation.

478
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 3: There were a few others before that. I'm I'm sure

479
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 3: Joe Paluka had one. Yeah, there were a few, but yeah,

480
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 3: it was probably the most successful. But if you read

481
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 3: the comic and then like see like it's it's a sitcom,

482
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 3: it's nothing really like.

483
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: No, and it's like there's people will talk about like

484
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: the show being bad for its its child actor. I'm

485
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 2: not going to bring that down as like a thing

486
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 2: on Hank's against Hank.

487
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 3: Because no, that's not his fault.

488
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: That's most child actors have, at least up until very

489
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: recently had. It's just a you probably shouldn't make a

490
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: kid suddenly world famous.

491
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 3: And I would say the physical and mental abuse that

492
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 3: Jay North isn't I think he suffered was the fault

493
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 3: of all the adults around him. Because it was his

494
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 3: and an uncle or his managers, and they were the

495
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 3: ones abusing him. It was obviously then uncle's fault, but

496
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 3: also the adults who saw this and did fucking nothing. Yeah,

497
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 3: but you can't really blame Ketch them. He wasn't involved

498
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 3: beyond he not paid. No.

499
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: And it's one of those things every time I read

500
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: about shit like this, I'm not a particular Harry Potter guy,

501
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: but when it comes to the movies. Everything I've read about,

502
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: like how both the parents of those kids and their

503
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: co hosts were like, these kids, we have to really

504
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: be on the ball to protect them, because this is

505
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: going to be a disaster for all of them if

506
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: we're not really careful. And it seems like they mostly

507
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 2: have ended up pretty well. I know Daniel Radcliffe had

508
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 2: is like his tough years, most of us do, but

509
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: like he's doing great. I think the rest of them

510
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 2: seem to be doing well. Like you got to be

511
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 2: weird owl, Yeah, you got to be weird out. What

512
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: more can you ask for in a life? So good

513
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: on all of the adults involved in that situation, but

514
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: not this one.

515
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: There was no Ja Lloyd situation.

516
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 2: There was Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh god, that's another bleak

517
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 2: one man.

518
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: Man. The world really hates kids.

519
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sure does. Now. During this period after he

520
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: moved to Geneva, Hank decided to stop reading the news.

521
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 2: He's a millionaire by this point, and he decides there's

522
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: nothing but bad stuff on the news, so he doesn't

523
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: read it anymore. And because he's living in a foreign country,

524
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: he feels like he needs to stay up to date

525
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 2: on American culture. And he does this by subscribing to

526
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: the Seers Catalog, which he claims gave him an accurate

527
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: look at the esthetic of American life. This apparently worked. Yeah,

528
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, Okay, I think what what works? I

529
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: don't think he keeps up to date with American life.

530
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: But what works about Dennis the Menace is that it's

531
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: kind of permanently stuck in an idolized version of the

532
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: fifties that never existed, right, Which is fine for a cartoon.

533
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: It's fine if it's not based on your real life

534
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: and the family you abandoned.

535
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: Right.

536
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: For people that don't know what Sears is, can you

537
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: explain that before?

538
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, anymore?

539
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: Kids know how? Like Target and Walmart? They're these big

540
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: stores people used to go to before Amazon to buy stuff.

541
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: Well back even before then, people would buy stuff they

542
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: Sears had some big stores, but mostly they had a

543
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: catalog and it would go to your house where you

544
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: lived on the prairie with your family until you all

545
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: died of diphtheria, and you would order stuff once a

546
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: year from the Sears catalog to get the things you needed,

547
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: and they sold everything you could get, house kits they sold.

548
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 2: We have multiple guns that are antiques that were originally

549
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: sold to people mailed to their door through catalogs. I

550
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: don't have any automatic weapons, but they would ship you

551
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: machine guns.

552
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 3: Back then, they had their own, They had their own

553
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: knockoff atari in the Yeah, did we had a bunch

554
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 3: of cartridges that worked in their tarty six hundred.

555
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

556
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: From them.

557
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's a wild tale. So that's how

558
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 2: he stays in touch. And it's one of those things.

559
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 2: Dennis the Menace is successful in large part because it

560
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: stays trapped in the past, and this was very much

561
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: due to Hank's personality. He told The Washington Post, turmoil

562
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: is something I don't need other than what I generate myself,

563
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 2: which is shows more self knowledge than the rest of

564
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: the statements he makes.

565
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 3: Damn man.

566
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 2: Unfortunately for Hank, but fortunately for the rest of the world.

567
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: During kind of the period where Dennis the Menace is

568
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: hitting its stride, the civil rights movement is also picking

569
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: up steam. Right this kind of the mid sixties is

570
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: when when a lot of that stuff really starts to

571
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 2: to boil over and Hank, living this wealthy Geneva expat life,

572
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: is like scared and kind of angry at all of

573
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: this stuff he's seeing, which is like confusing and threatening

574
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: to him, and he retreats inside of himself more and

575
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: more as the civil rights movement goes on. He expressed

576
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 2: to The Washington Post later a sentiment that he kind

577
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: of in Dennis the Menace, he replaced the real, tumultuous

578
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: America of the day with his own cartoon version. And

579
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: I think it's also true that he replaced his own

580
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: tumultuous and failed first family with this fake version. Right,

581
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: both of these are things that he's doing with this cartoon.

582
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 2: He's very much using it as a tool to escape reality.

583
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: He is a lifelong Republican voter, so perhaps this is

584
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: not surprising, but.

585
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 3: That's not excuse because you have people wing al cap

586
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 3: who are lifelong Republicans. And he used his power to

587
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 3: do a comic call the Martin Looking Junior in the

588
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: Montgomery story, Oh, to promote Martin Luking Junior, because and

589
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: al Capp is a piece of shit, but like he's

590
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: still one thing about him. He was for integration.

591
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a kind of guy you had back then.

592
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: Like there's there's a number of those from entertainment where

593
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: it's like well, this man was a monster everywhere else

594
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: in his life, but he was firmly on the side

595
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: of integration.

596
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Capp was a big admirer of King. And you know,

597
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: then you have like Charles Schultz.

598
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: We're talking about.

599
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna hide.

600
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh yeah, oh god, this that's what's coming up here, buddy.

601
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 3: Oh no, so uh.

602
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: I do want to continue first with a quote from

603
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: that Washington Post article. It is a world where ketch

604
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: Him is in control. These are people I want to

605
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: live with, he says of the characters and the musical

606
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: so familiar from the cartoon Dennis, his parents Alice and

607
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: Henry Mitchell, and their next door neighbors, George and Martha Wilson.

608
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: If they aren't what I like, I erased them. The

609
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: headlines can be murderous and bloody, but in my world,

610
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: the birds are singing, and that is such a telling line.

611
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 2: If they aren't what I like, I erased them, because

612
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: that is what you did to your own son, mm hmm,

613
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: like when he didn't turn out the way you wanted

614
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: as a small child.

615
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

616
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: Now you won't be surprised to hear from that that

617
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: the world he creates does not include black people for

618
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: quite some time. Right, Yeah, Hank's cartoon is not unlike

619
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: most popular culture made by white people in that time, right,

620
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: and that it ignored the existence of black Americans to

621
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: a large degree. And like, I think one of the

622
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: first times I was aware of this is a kid.

623
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: Every Christmas my family would watch the Bing Crosby Danny

624
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: k movie White Christmas. Stuff about that movie. The only

625
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: black people you see are working as like white staff

626
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: on a train, right, and they don't say anything. That's

627
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: the only time you see any black people in that movie.

628
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: That was just I mean, that was It's not good,

629
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: but that was like not Hank is not unique, right,

630
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: And in this in his criteria.

631
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: There was a problem in general with black representation and

632
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: comic sup It's like, if you wanted to see black representation,

633
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 3: either it was blackfrees characters, yeah, or you had to

634
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: go to black newspaper papers where you have comic strips,

635
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: which that the world of black comic strips are amazing

636
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: and none of people know about them.

637
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: Is there any reading you might recommend on that you

638
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: could pull up.

639
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 3: My spouse has actually been going through archives and collecting

640
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: old strips. If you want to send you a file

641
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: of some of the ones we have found, because we've

642
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 3: found some really cool ones.

643
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: I mean, that'd be a great thing to be able

644
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: to like host and just let people go through.

645
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 3: If it's post that is the goal, I think a

646
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: lot of it. Well, it's it's but even then, like

647
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: I have an article that was published in seventy three

648
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: when Beatle Bailey brought in a black character and how

649
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: there were newspapers in seventy three dropping it. Yeah, and

650
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 3: mart Walker's response was, it's unrealistic to have a comic

651
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: about the army and not have a black character at present.

652
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

653
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's like it's nineteen sixty five is when

654
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: a major publisher produces the first dedicated comic book with

655
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: a black hero, Right, is that Lobo? Yeah, it's Lobo

656
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five, and that's just two years after the

657
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: first black man wins an Academy Award for a leading role.

658
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: And it's it's Sydney Poidier.

659
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 3: Obviously that it was also Del Commons do del Commas,

660
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 3: as I recall, they were kind of in their Hail

661
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: Marry years and they were just desperately trying. Yeah, there

662
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 3: had been a comic in the forties. I can't remember

663
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 3: the name that all Negro Comics, which was created in

664
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 3: forty seven, and it was created by back black creators.

665
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is this is a period where I mean,

666
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,479
Speaker 2: like that kind of stuff I think I would love

667
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: to know more about. Like it's it's it's such an

668
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: uphill battle, right to try and to try and make

669
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: sure that, like the the popular culture that most people

670
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: see as reflecting America includes black people, right, Like that

671
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: that's that's such a struggle during this period of time.

672
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: I think a lot about like you watch those old

673
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 2: Star Trek episodes and like a Hurrah often doesn't have

674
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 2: a whole lot to do. They clearly like didn't always

675
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: know what should we have this character doing. But just

676
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: like having you know, Whoopie Goldberg talks about this, just

677
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: the fact that there was a black woman on television

678
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: that wasn't anybody's maide, that was like doing a real job,

679
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: that was an officer like everybody else, was a huge

680
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: fucking deal. And you know that extends to the world

681
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: of cartoons. And I think one of the first, maybe

682
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: the first really major white cartoonists to start including a

683
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: black character in his cartoon was Charles Schultz, as you

684
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: kind of hinted at a bit ago, nineteen sixty eight,

685
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: is when he introduces Franklin. And I want to talk

686
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: about Schultz for a little bit, not because what he

687
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: does is like heroic. It's not. It's beyond the minimum,

688
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: but it's not like a wild act of radicalism or whatever.

689
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: We're going to be covering how Hank handles the same situation,

690
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: and I want to start with how a basically decent man.

691
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: And I think Chuck Schultz was a basically decent man.

692
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 3: I've never heard a bad word about him.

693
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never heard a bad word about him. Handles

694
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: integrating a black character into his cartoon and why he

695
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 2: does it. Here's what he says about the decision to

696
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: add Franklin to the comic strip later. I could have

697
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: put him in long before that, but for other reasons

698
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't want to intrude upon the work

699
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: of others. I think he's talking about some of those

700
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 2: black cartoonists you mentioned earlier here, so I held off

701
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: on that. But finally I put Franklin in. And there

702
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 2: was one strip where Charlie Brown and Franklin had been

703
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: playing on the beach, and Franklin said, well, it's been

704
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: nice being with you. Come on over to my house

705
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 2: sometime again. They didn't like that. Another editor protested once

706
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: when Franklin was sitting in the same row of school

707
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,919
Speaker 2: desks with Pepper and Patty and said, we have enough

708
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 2: trouble here in the South without you showing the kids

709
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 2: together in school. But I never paid attention to those things.

710
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: And I remember telling Larry Rutman, president of United Features

711
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: Syndicate at the time, about Franklin. He wanted me to

712
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 2: change it, and we talked about it for a long

713
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,959
Speaker 2: time on the phone, and I finally sighed and said, well, Larry,

714
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: let's put it this way. Either you print it just

715
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: the way I draw it, or I quit. How's that.

716
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: So that's the way things ended. But I've never done

717
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: much with Franklin because I don't do race things. I'm

718
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 2: not an expert on race. I don't know what it's

719
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: like to grow up as a little black boy. And

720
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: I think that gives you a really good idea of

721
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,479
Speaker 2: like how a well meaning person would handle this. First off,

722
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 2: he does go beyond the minimum here when he's like, look, man,

723
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 2: who's your next pick for Charles Schultz, if I won't

724
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 2: make this comic for you peanuts.

725
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he was at the height of his popularity, absolutely,

726
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 3: and like it was, it would have been a big

727
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 3: deal and that's meaningful. Yeah, it would for him to

728
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: walk away from that, that's a walk away from a

729
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 3: lot of money.

730
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: He's arguably not maybe not the only cartoonist, but certainly

731
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: one of the only cartoonists who could have forced something

732
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: like this into a major cartoon, who could have forced

733
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: them to show like integrated schools and stuff in his

734
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: cartoon because he had that much cloud. And it's good

735
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: that he used it that way.

736
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 3: There were other people who could have. But like from

737
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 3: the article from seventy three, I remember like Ernie Bushmuller,

738
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: who did an Nancy was like, no, I don't want

739
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 3: to no, I don't want to touch political stuff that

740
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: he Yeah, one of my predecessors, Bud Sagingdorf, worked in Popeye.

741
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: I kind of get his viewpoint. He's like, the way

742
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 3: I draw everyone, when you put a brown skin tone

743
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 3: on them, it looks like a racist character. Is like,

744
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: I don't want to make this worse.

745
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's not unfair necessarily.

746
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: Like he was understanding like, if I do this, it

747
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 3: looks Yeah, the history of comics and how black people

748
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: have been treated in.

749
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 2: Comics, I shouldn't be the guy to do this, right, Yeah,

750
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: that's fair. And I think that what Schultz did again,

751
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: I think it's I don't want to go like overboard

752
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: praising him because he's not putting his life on the

753
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: line here. But I think what he is doing, what

754
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 2: he would say he's doing, is he's looking at people

755
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 2: putting their lives on the line and saying, well, like,

756
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 2: I am in a position where I can force this

757
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: through and I should, right. I don't really know how

758
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 2: to write this character. But maybe that's not what matters

759
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 2: right now. What matters is just showing that Charlie Brown's America,

760
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: which is one of the most popular depictions of fictional America,

761
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: includes black people, Right, And that's a good thing to do, Right,

762
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: That's a that's a praiseworthy some amount of praise at least.

763
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: That's it's worthing.

764
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: Not that he'd never really talked about there during his lifetime.

765
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 3: It's only in the last few years that's come out. Yeah,

766
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 3: and they're actually doing a short I think where I

767
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: may come out a cartoon special. Yeah, about Franklin. That's

768
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: a retelling of that first storyline.

769
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: And I think it's also perfectly fair for Schultz to

770
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: be like, look, man, I'm not the guy to start

771
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 2: making points about like race in America or like try

772
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: to depict the life of a young black boy in

773
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: the sixties. No, he's not right when it comes to Pena,

774
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be doing that. I just want to make

775
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: people to know that he's here. And I think that

776
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 2: is respectable, and I think it's worth covering this respectable

777
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: attempt to add, like to integrate the world of comics.

778
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: You could say with what Hank Ketcham does. About two

779
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: years after Schultz Debut's Franklin in nineteen seventy, Hank Ketcham

780
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: adds his first black character to Dennis the Menace and Randy,

781
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: have you seen this comic?

782
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 3: I did not know there was a black character.

783
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: Oh boy, his name is Jackson, and I'm just gonna

784
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: have so if you show it to you and you can.

785
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 3: Just hold on, he's I can get my what the fuck?

786
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 3: What the fuck that is? He's a sambo character.

787
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: I don't think that is white lips. That is the

788
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: best way to describe him. I don't know how to

789
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: actually like describe how he draws this character.

790
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 3: I will with one character with white lips. He is

791
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 3: a cart He's a nineteen forties character.

792
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: Oh, I have seen and the caption we'll get to that.

793
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 2: I want to know, like I thought when I saw this,

794
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: because I used to do a lot of stalking Nazis online,

795
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: I have seen neo Nazi comics from the nineties that

796
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: depicted black people almost identically to the way that he

797
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 2: does in this Like it is bad people, some.

798
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 3: Of the movie bad So. My spouse and I one

799
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: of our hobbies as we go through newspaper archives. I

800
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 3: love looking for lost comic strips that note but that

801
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: means I also see a lot of really weird racist

802
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: shit from the nineteen ten and nineteen This could have

803
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 3: been printed in nineteen twenty one.

804
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild how bad it is for nineteen seventy.

805
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 3: That is, he has giant white lips. You can't see

806
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 3: his nose. He is ink black. He is as black

807
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: as the father's hair.

808
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: And like he doesn't have like the Popeye guy. I

809
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: get that argument. Like my all of my characters are caricatures.

810
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: I don't really know how to draw a black person

811
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: and not have it look like a.

812
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 3: Problem different from everything else he ever draws.

813
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he draws normal looking people as a general rule.

814
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,479
Speaker 3: Now here's my question, though, I need to know this. Yeah,

815
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 3: Ketchum did have ghost artists and ghost writers.

816
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: No, this was him.

817
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 3: Oh, this was Hims.

818
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: It was not Wiseman that I don't think has even

819
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 2: started yet. This is him.

820
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 3: No, how Wise been working in the fifties, but he

821
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: was mostly working on the comic book I think.

822
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like and the comic book he talks

823
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: about that that winds up coming on and coming off

824
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: because it gets too expensive. But like, yeah, this is

825
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: because he writes about this.

826
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 3: Like he takes he takes credit for this.

827
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 2: He takes credit for this.

828
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 3: Yes, oh shit, I wouldn't.

829
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: And there is so that the cartoon we're talking about,

830
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 2: we were so bold over by how racist it is.

831
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: Like it is. You've got Dennis the MENACE's dad mowing

832
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: the lawn and he's looking over and there's Dennis, and

833
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: there's Jackson, and Dennis said.

834
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 3: The father looks terrified.

835
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: The father looks scared to see this little boy. Dennis says,

836
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm having some race trouble with Jackson, he runs faster

837
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: than I do. What is that saying?

838
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 3: Man?

839
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: Like, what is that even saying? Like I know what

840
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: he's saying is like Dennis doesn't see race, right, Like

841
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: that is the actual point of the comments, which.

842
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 3: Is also it's funny. It's a holy, I don't understand thing.

843
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: And again, like there's something quietly political about that first

844
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: like Franklin strip where because he's just making the point that,

845
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: like Franklin is welcome in Charlie Brown's home, right, And

846
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: actually in that time that is kind of a political statement.

847
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 3: It's like the same part of mister Rogers episode where

848
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 3: yes he shares a foot wash with a black man.

849
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, or when he like shares a hug or something

850
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 2: with like that guy who was suffering from HIV to

851
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: be like, look, you don't have to treat these people

852
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: with Is that a subtle politic, Yes, a subtle, meaningful,

853
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: earnest politics as opposed to whatever the fuck this is.

854
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: And a lot of people get angry at this cartoon.

855
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: Hank even alleges that there are violent attacks as a

856
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 2: result of this cartoon. This is from his autobiography, a

857
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 2: harmless little play on words and I felt a soft,

858
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: amusing beginning. Not so. The rumbles started in Detroit, then

859
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 2: moved south to Saint Louis, where rocks and bottles were

860
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: thrown through the windows of the Post Dispatch newspaper. Boys

861
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: were being chased and hassled in Little Rock, and in

862
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: Miami some herald editors were being threatened. The cancer quickly

863
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: spread to others large cities.

864
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 3: Am I wrong? No? Is the children who are?

865
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: It's the people? And like, did you ever describe racism

866
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 2: as a cancer or just people getting angry that you

867
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 2: drew a slur in your cartoon, Hank, I.

868
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 3: Would say, if he has a you know what, I

869
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: drew this, and I did not think about the fact

870
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 3: I was thinking that with the mind of a man

871
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 3: born the twenties. Yeah, like I should have stepped back.

872
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: I should have He needed someone in that room to

873
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: say that's not okay.

874
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 2: It does say a lot about the state of the

875
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: industry that this comic presumably passes through a bunch of

876
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 2: people's hands before it goes up it.

877
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 3: Dude, I did a comic not long ago that was

878
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 3: it was a throwaway Popeye strip and the joke was

879
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 3: when I was a child, I was convinced the song

880
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 3: Caughton Eye Joe was about a zombie. So I just

881
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 3: trip about that and when my editor is like, heyesse,

882
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 3: you know there might be some racist history to that song.

883
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 3: And so there was a meeting about the strip, and

884
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 3: I mean, there's an article it's questionable. And my whole

885
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 3: thing was like, okay, we'll just pull it, Like just

886
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 3: pull it, like even if it's not true, someone out

887
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: there might think it. I don't want to hurt someone's feelings.

888
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 3: But like, multiple editors got together with me. We had

889
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: a big discussion on it. Yeah, and that looked nothing

890
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 3: like this.

891
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure the extent of this conversation was, like

892
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 2: he sends this cartoon, an editor on his fourth high

893
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: ball of at lunch was like.

894
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 3: Great work.

895
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: You're gonna fix the race problem in this country. And

896
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: then back to drinking eyeballs, like if that had.

897
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: Run in fifty five, I'm like, oh, yeah, of course

898
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 3: it fucking ran.

899
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but seventies wild stuff.

900
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 3: Oh my fucking god.

901
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: So he describes being mad as hell at the reaction

902
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 2: that this gets and shamed he ought to be. Snopes

903
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: notes that at the time, a number of newspapers ran

904
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: apologies to their readers for this cartoon, and they provide

905
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: an example from the Cleveland Press. Yesterday's Dennis the Menace

906
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: cartoon offended a number of Press readers. The press apologizes

907
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: for the affront caused by the cartoonist. It assures subscribers

908
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: that such a thing will not happen again.

909
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 3: Oh I'm sure he was not happy about that. No,

910
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 3: he was not.

911
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: And normally I would say, why don't throw the cartoonist

912
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: under the bus? In this case, yeah, throw the cartoonist

913
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: under the bus.

914
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 3: Hobble him so he can't get out of the way yet,

915
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 3: so just let it go.

916
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: So catch him for reasons that are known only to God,

917
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: would make one more comic feature Ring Jackson. I will

918
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: say this Jackson is drawn less racist ly than before.

919
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: Not well, not good, but not the same.

920
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 3: I'm dreadnossd.

921
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: It's still not good. It's still maybe a little definitely

922
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 2: a little bit of a problem, but uh better, Okay, yeah,

923
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: yeah better.

924
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 3: I would actually think that's a totally different character, to

925
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 3: be honest.

926
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 2: Yes, it is drawn wildly differently.

927
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 3: So for the people who obviously can't see this, the

928
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: character is drawn less of as a giant ink blot child,

929
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: he still seems to have white lips, which is not good.

930
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also the like a third of his head

931
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: is white. I think just because of like where the

932
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: light's supposed.

933
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 3: To be the shine. But at this point in time

934
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: that black characters are shown with like a crosshatching, Franklin

935
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: was drawn the same way a lot of Like it's

936
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 3: just kind of how it was done. Yeah. Yeah, I

937
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 3: don't agree with it, but it's truth. Yeah. But yeah again,

938
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 3: like the white lips, like that's a weird tell tale

939
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 3: like that all you had to do was give like

940
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 3: the textured hair.

941
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 2: Yep.

942
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 3: I mean, look at a comic Curtis, which is a

943
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,399
Speaker 3: granted drawn by a black creator, Like you can give

944
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 3: features that denote African American heritage without going to fucking stereotypes. Yeah,

945
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 3: arms are still jet black.

946
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: I think another thing you could do, and maybe other

947
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: cartoonists could have done too, is like, well, I don't

948
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: know how to draw this cartoon or make a point.

949
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 2: I'll just have a black cartoonist take over my strip

950
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: for a day, you know, yeah, like like put out something.

951
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: You don't have to do this, Hank, Like you could

952
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,479
Speaker 2: use your clout here some other way.

953
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: Or actually hire a consultant, a black what go to

954
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,720
Speaker 3: someone and say, like give them money because they shouldn't

955
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 3: have to do it for free.

956
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: Particularly after your first cartoon causes a riot, like oh,

957
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: you're not the one to handle this anymore. And the

958
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: cartoon itself is yeah, his mom's got two cookies and

959
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: she's like looking at the two boys.

960
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: And again she's nervous.

961
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 2: She's nervous. Dennis has his hand out towards Jackson. He's

962
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: like me and Jackson are exactly the same age, only

963
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,919
Speaker 2: he's different. He's left handed. And again it's the same

964
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 2: punchline where like all of you, you know, silly Americans

965
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: and the civil rights movement care so much about race,

966
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 2: Dennis the menace, the boy I invented while ignoring my

967
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 2: own son, doesn't even see race, you know, like.

968
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 3: He feels like a concervative, Like, well, my character gets it.

969
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 3: What's wrong with you, liberals?

970
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: I'm much woker than you, but for living in Geneva

971
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 2: and ignoring the Civil rights movement. As the years go on,

972
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: Hank is going to increasingly defiantly avoid any interaction with

973
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 2: the real world or any hint that life for a

974
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: regular Americans was no longer the bland fifties daydream he

975
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 2: depicted in Dennis the Menace and had actually himself failed

976
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: to live in the nineteen fifties. And we are going

977
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: to talk about what happens to the real dnnis after

978
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 2: he gets out of school. But first, what's going to

979
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 2: happen to you is you're going to listen to these ads.

980
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 2: We're back, so we're talking about the real Dennis the

981
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: Menace again. Now he gets out of school in nineteen

982
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: sixty six. He never benefited from the protection his father's

983
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: wealth might have allowed him, and he joins the Marine

984
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 2: Corps in nineteen sixty six. Shit yes, and he goes

985
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 2: straight to Vietnam. He is stationed in Vietnam and he sees,

986
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: from what I can tell, pretty heavy combat.

987
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 3: So unlike his father who was drafted, he sees action.

988
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: Yes, he has a bad tour. People Magazine quotes him

989
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: as saying, my grandmother and aunt sent me letters, but

990
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: never Dad. When People Magazine went to Hank and were like,

991
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: did you not send your son letters when he was

992
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: in Vietnam, they note quote Hank insists he did write

993
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: to his son. I know who. I believe it's based

994
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 2: on the rest of this story. I know who I believe.

995
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's if I'm not mistaken. He was also in

996
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: the seventies doing like a military comical half Hitch, wasn't he? Oh?

997
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 1: Was he?

998
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 3: Yeah? He kitcham did a strip? Oh no way, yeah,

999
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 3: I'm double checking it. He did it like during That

1000
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 3: was his World War II comic Half Hitch. But he

1001
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: brought it back from seventy to seventy five.

1002
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: Oh wow, for just at the tail end of Vietnam.

1003
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 2: Huh a couple of years after. Weird, that's peculiar, but

1004
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: not interested in his own son, who was technically serving

1005
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: in a branch of the Navy. Sorry Marines. That's the truth.

1006
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 2: So Dennis the Minis sees some shit in Vietnam and

1007
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: he comes home with severe PTSD. The real Dennis the

1008
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 2: Menace is a traumatized nom veteran. He has trouble functioning

1009
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: in society. He is unable to really hold down a

1010
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 2: job for a considerable period of time. He moves through

1011
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: a lot of like low paid gigs. He's a prison

1012
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: guard for a while, he's a ranch hand, and by

1013
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: night he's living in Ohio and is generally described in

1014
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 2: articles at the time as being estranged from his father.

1015
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 2: When some people would reach out, he would make comments

1016
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: to the effect that like, yeah, being having a popular

1017
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: comic named after me and based on me by my

1018
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: dad who abandoned me, really messed with me. And again

1019
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: Hank's response to this is these things happen. They don't.

1020
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 3: No, they really don't. Yeah, really shouldn't now.

1021
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: For reasons that probably aren't surprising, the real Dennis the

1022
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 2: Menace has a tumultuous personal life. He has several divorces

1023
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 2: for reasons I don't know. He is legally barred for

1024
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: a time from seeing his teenage daughter Jennifer. Probably not

1025
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: a great story there, that People article concludes. Every now

1026
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 2: and then, as he did a couple of weeks ago,

1027
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: Dennis phones his father. I see your movie is out,

1028
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: said Dennis. And this is when the movie with the

1029
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 2: guy from U fuck Edrithews bears Walter Matthous.

1030
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 3: From Lloyd to the villain in the movie.

1031
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: You're right, we'll talk about we'll talk about Walter Matthew

1032
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 2: in a second that No, No, I love Walter math out.

1033
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 2: I see your movie is out, said Dennis. I hope

1034
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: you see it. Hank replied, Dennis said he hoped to.

1035
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 2: He then announced that he and Janet, who's his wife

1036
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 2: at the time, are quitting their jobs and resettling in

1037
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: the Southwest, and asked his father to help finance their move.

1038
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: That's the way many of our conversations go, says Hank sadly.

1039
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 2: And like when you're reading every article you can find

1040
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: about a guy, which I did for Hank, a funny

1041
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: thing happens, which is that you pick up some patterns

1042
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: in multiple interviews. He will tell people in this period

1043
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: of time, my son only calls me to ask for money.

1044
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 2: There's one exception to this, and it's a two thousand

1045
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 2: and one article in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette by Sharon Randall,

1046
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: and in it, Hank speaks very differently about this part

1047
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: of their relationship. Quote when I asked about Dennis, he said,

1048
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: he checks in about twice a year, and if he

1049
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: needs something, I try to help him. That's a really

1050
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: different response from he only calls me when he wants money, right.

1051
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: Which makes you think he caught some flack.

1052
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: Did he catch some flack? Is it just because the

1053
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: interviewer is a woman? Is he like into her? Does

1054
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: he want to impress her Like I couldn't tell you

1055
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: why he phrases it this way, but it really stuck

1056
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: out to me, where every other time he's like he

1057
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 2: just wants money, and this time he's like, I try

1058
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 2: to help him when I.

1059
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 3: Can, you know, try to be again. Yeah, and let's

1060
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 3: suspect again.

1061
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 2: In addition to like the I don't think that like

1062
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 2: kids have a responsibility to your parents. If you have

1063
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: money as a parent, I don't think you have a

1064
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: responsibility to make your kids rich. I think it's actually

1065
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 2: terrible for them if you do. But if you base

1066
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: a cartoon on your son and kind of destroy his

1067
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: childhood partly as a result of that, you probably do

1068
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 2: owe him some of your millions. You should probably give

1069
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: him some of your riches.

1070
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 3: If I made a comic based off my daughter and

1071
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 3: it became like I would feel like I'd have to

1072
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 3: put at least some of the money aside for her.

1073
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 2: Yes, I think most people would.

1074
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 3: Because she had no abilit she's sick.

1075
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 2: She can't no to that, and it's gonna affect her

1076
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: life less now. But like back then, especially like cartoons

1077
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 2: being as central as they were to like child culture. Yeah, now,

1078
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 2: in that article, that People article by Michael Lipton. There's

1079
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: a very devastating line where this comes from part of

1080
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: the interview with Dennis. Quote. Dad can be like a stranger,

1081
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: counters Dennis, who has never met his two half siblings.

1082
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 2: Sometimes I think that if he died tomorrow, I wouldn't

1083
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 2: feel anything. That's that's what we call in the narrative business,

1084
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 2: a setup. So as soon as he's able to justify it, Hank,

1085
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: as you've noted, takes a back seat in the production

1086
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 2: of his own cartoon. He brings some ghostwriters and artists

1087
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 2: to draw it. And I don't think there's anything wrong

1088
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:31,399
Speaker 2: with that. Shit.

1089
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 3: No, that's happens.

1090
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1091
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards is still a one man shop in

1092
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: terms of the writing of episodes. But you know, if

1093
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: I ever got the chance to retire wealthy and have

1094
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 2: some some zoomer pretend to be me and use an

1095
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 2: AI voice, maybe I've done that already. Maybe you don't know,

1096
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 2: You'll never know if it's still me. I mean, you know, Randy, and.

1097
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 3: You know so Bay guys like I could see you.

1098
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can see me. So I don't know. I'm

1099
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: not gonna I'm not gonna shit talk him on that,

1100
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: especially since it's not an AI. Actual artists are getting

1101
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 2: their stars, are building careers drawing the Dennist the Menace cartoon.

1102
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 3: It is a very common thing throughout this entire industry.

1103
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 3: So what's being wrong with that? The only cartoonist I

1104
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 3: know of who was very big who refused, lets someone

1105
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 3: draws comic with Charles.

1106
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 2: Schultz, Yeah, yeah, Schultz, and obviously in Waterson.

1107
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, Waterson, yeah, obviously yeah yeah. And Larson, Harry Larson

1108
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 3: pretty sure, oh.

1109
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And also like those are guys,

1110
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 2: like I think Larson just brought it back. If I'm

1111
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:25,919
Speaker 2: not mistaken, he's.

1112
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 3: Book I believe he's doing them yea. And Waterson also

1113
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 3: came from a different field. Waterson came from political comics, yes,

1114
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 3: and like you can tell for his line work, that's

1115
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 3: what he started out as. And I think when you

1116
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 3: have political comics like Berkeley Breathe or Gryto, like that's

1117
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 3: just not a field that normally has cost artists.

1118
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: Got it.

1119
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a huge Bloom County fan as a

1120
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 2: kid too. Didn't understand a lot of the comments about

1121
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: like fucking the Symbionese Liberation Army and ship the news dropping,

1122
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: but love that opus.

1123
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 3: He's so fun.

1124
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: I love cutter John, Yeah yeah, Bill a cat great stuff.

1125
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: So yeah, I got no issue with the fact that

1126
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: he gives up drawing his cartoon gradually. Obviously that makes

1127
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 2: sense to me. He does it in favor of spending

1128
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: his free time painting arts. He depictions of jazz singers

1129
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: and other like he tries to start a fine art career,

1130
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 2: and he would claim later in life that this is

1131
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: the work he wanted to be remembered by. Dennis the

1132
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 2: menace was, he admitted, just a money generator. His art

1133
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 2: was what he was really in. Like that that was

1134
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 2: the posterity, right, he says, He says in this interview

1135
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 2: with s F Gate. Now my painting, that's something else.

1136
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: My bid to posterity is my paintings. And here's a

1137
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 2: painting he did of Jesus.

1138
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 3: I'm gonna hate this, sir.

1139
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,879
Speaker 2: I it's it's just weird. It's not bad, it's not bad,

1140
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 2: but it's weird.

1141
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 3: What the hell?

1142
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 2: I guess that's hair because it's like on his armpits

1143
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 2: and his chest. It looks like he's sticking into him. Yeah,

1144
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 2: a little odd, but like, like not bad. I wouldn't say.

1145
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 3: It's definitely it has influences of his It's weird he

1146
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 3: doesn't want to remember for his comic because I know

1147
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,879
Speaker 3: a lot of artists, yeah, who love his line work,

1148
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 3: like his line work was very influenced.

1149
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 2: Certainly, I mean he's a good, good darget illustrator. I

1150
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: certainly I find Dennis the Menace. I can probably recall

1151
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 2: the basic animation of that cartoon with my eyes closed.

1152
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 2: And I don't think I'll remember this Jesus painting very much.

1153
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 2: Yea like bomba?

1154
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 3: Is that Obama Jesus?

1155
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 2: No, he didn't live that long, so he wouldn't have

1156
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 2: done it. And here's an untitled painting a bearded man.

1157
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 2: This is this one's weirder and untitled painting of a

1158
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: bearded man in a dog collar reaching for a cigarette

1159
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 2: while a dominatrix stands over him.

1160
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 3: What the hell?

1161
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 2: That's a weird painting from the fucking Dennis the Menace guy. Huh.

1162
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 2: There's no title to it, so I don't know what

1163
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: he was going for with this, Like I I it

1164
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 2: clearly that's a dominatrix though, right, both of those.

1165
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: Dominator Yeah, a pair of dominatrixes dominatrixes.

1166
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the guy's got like a golden or a

1167
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: bronze collar. He's got like spiked collars around his hands too,

1168
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: and he's like on his knees grasping for a cigarette.

1169
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,879
Speaker 2: Someone stepped on it looks like it's weird. It's weird.

1170
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 3: The women were laced up knee high boots. Yeah, it's interesting.

1171
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 2: This is like learning it's bad.

1172
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like learning one of the creators a Superman

1173
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 3: did all that weird bondage and murder.

1174
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's definitely odd. It's not what I would

1175
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 2: have called for him. It certainly doesn't remind me of

1176
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: his cartoons. But it's like it's it's competently drawn.

1177
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 3: It it's actually like the composition's nice. I like the

1178
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 3: facial structure, like I like the line work.

1179
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: I saw it online. I think this was going for

1180
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 2: like two hundred bucks, so like it's affordable. If you

1181
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: want to hank catch him original, you can. You can

1182
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: probably make that happen for yourself.

1183
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 3: I mean, stuff might not be I mean, I'm sure his.

1184
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 2: Cartoons are price yer, but I don't think there's a

1185
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 2: lot of interest in his weird Dominatrix art. So one

1186
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: of the most interesting articles I ran into on the

1187
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 2: Man's Personality was published by the La Times in nineteen

1188
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 2: eighty six, and it's got some really good paragraphs. Having

1189
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 2: been approached by his fellow cartoonists to join them in

1190
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 2: the crusade against hunger and Africa catch them, declined, I

1191
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 2: think we have other priorities right here. I prefer to

1192
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 2: do everything I can for my neighbors, then the peninsula,

1193
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: then the state, then the country. My priorities are not overseas, no,

1194
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 2: of course, not for God's sake. Like yeah, yeah, a

1195
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: very standard thing, but worth bringing up just in terms

1196
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 2: of like the kind of guy he was. There's a

1197
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 2: revealing moment in this article where the journalist is like

1198
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: looking at his drawing desk in his office and sees

1199
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 2: a picture of a little boy on the desk, and

1200
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, is that a picture of your son?

1201
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: Dennis the original Dennis the Menace? And Hanks's answer is, now,

1202
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: he's forty, now doing his own thing. We don't communicate

1203
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: that much. So who's the five year old in the picture?

1204
00:57:59,120 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 3: That's me?

1205
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 2: Now? Does he look like a menace? Nice chunky little fella?

1206
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 2: Future Republican fella future grumpy old man. God, what a

1207
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 2: weird What a weird thing to say we like of

1208
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 2: yourself for the cartoon that you draw about your kid

1209
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 2: who you abandoned. A little weird. Yeah, so, I don't know.

1210
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 2: You can have whatever opinion on his fine art you want,

1211
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 2: but time has shown pretty clearly that he is not

1212
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: going to be remembered for that. He will be remembered

1213
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 2: for both Dennis the Menace and being a bad dad.

1214
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 2: Hank himself died in two thousand and one, and his

1215
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 2: first son, the original Dennist the Menace, did not attend

1216
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: his funeral.

1217
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 3: Nor would he Like do we know what he's doing now?

1218
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 3: Is he okay?

1219
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 2: I haven't heard much. I haven't heard anything about him

1220
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 2: in the last few years. I mean, he would be

1221
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: pretty old at this point. If he's still around, I

1222
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 2: wish him the best. Uh maybe depending on what happened

1223
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 2: with his teenage daughter. I guess I don't know fully,

1224
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: but yeah, the dad didn't help with that, I'll tell

1225
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: you that much.

1226
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 3: I mean, like, you're abandoned by your family, like your

1227
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 3: mom was probably not really present, your dad ditches you.

1228
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 3: Then you go to fucking Vietnam. M Well, first of noo,

1229
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 3: then you're gonna send your your mom dies, you don't

1230
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 3: find out, your dad remarries, moves you across the world,

1231
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 3: gets mad you're not learning a new language. When you're

1232
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 3: having trouble learning, his new wife says and on one

1233
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 3: and you get sent away that marriage doesn't even fucking

1234
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 3: work out. Then you go in the Marines, serve in

1235
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 3: a war that's fucking horrible. Come back to all that hate,

1236
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 3: because let's be honest, I'm sure he was not treated

1237
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 3: real well when he got back, and the government kind

1238
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 3: of forgot about you, just like your dad did. There's

1239
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 3: just so much pain and sadness there.

1240
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh.

1241
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: And all people do is associate you with a cartoon

1242
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: version of yourself that h from a dad who didn't

1243
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: know you.

1244
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know, your dad built an

1245
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 3: entire world off you. There's there's been so as movies,

1246
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 3: there were cartoon shows. I mean when I was a kid,

1247
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 3: Dennis Lamas was like a Dairy Queen mascot.

1248
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's a d Q kid. And it's yeah

1249
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 2: to think that, like from the perspective of Dennis the

1250
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 2: real boy, the only moment where his dad paid attention

1251
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: to him. Was that moment his mom yelled at him

1252
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 2: that inspired the comic, and that was all his dad

1253
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 2: needed from him and his entire life.

1254
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 3: That is as a that's bleak.

1255
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: I wonder if the author of Gone Girl got inspired

1256
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 1: by this story when she wrote, Uh, look you know,

1257
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 1: do you know? Do you know that what I'm talking about?

1258
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: Anyone isn't that?

1259
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1260
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the the main the main female characters entire

1261
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: life was her. Her mom wrote books called the Amazing

1262
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: Amy and it was inspired by her. Remember that. And

1263
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: I just wonder if the author I think the author's

1264
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: name is gil Flynn. I just wonder if the maybe

1265
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of parallels there.

1266
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Well, everybody that's behind the bastards, Randy,

1267
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 2: where can people find you? Online?

1268
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 3: Probably crying in a corner for a while after that

1269
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 3: goddamn story. Yeah, I guess I shouldn't be complaining. I

1270
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 3: don't get brought on for the dying baby episodes, so

1271
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 3: that's that's nice.

1272
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 2: Just the traumatized child episodes.

1273
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 3: An awful cartoon, which is a lot. I can't wait

1274
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 3: to come back for l Cap or the guy who

1275
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 3: did Annie. He was a piece of shit too something

1276
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 3: Positive dot net. That is the comic Gun drawings in

1277
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 3: two thousand and one. I also draw the Sunday Popeye

1278
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 3: strips as well as the Thursday all of them Popeye comics.

1279
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 3: I also do a comic called mouse Trap, which you

1280
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 3: can find out mouse Trap Comic top Blog.

1281
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 2: Well check all that out, folks, and uh go to Hell.

1282
01:01:58,160 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 3: I Love you.

1283
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1284
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1285
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:11,919
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1286
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.