WEBVTT - #533 Maggie Freleng with Selma Butler 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.240 Hey, y'all, it's Maggie today. I'm sharing an interview I 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.800 did last year, but we chose to hold off on 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.880 releasing it. At the time, Selma Butler was working on 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.559 his post conviction relief, so we didn't want to risk 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:15.800 slowing down his pursuit of justice in the courts. But sadly, 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:20.400 despite strong evidence of his innocence, Selma's request for post 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:24.200 conviction relief has been denied. Now, for the second time, 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:26.759 he has to go before the Illinois Appellet Court to 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:31.400 continue his fight. Selma's story is a painful reminder of 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.199 how our justice system can fail and how easily innocent 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:39.000 people can pay the price, how easy it is to 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.960 lock someone up and how hard it is to get 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:44.920 them out. I also want you to be the first 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.760 to hear that next week, I'll be making a very 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.200 big announcement. My LoVa for Good colleague Gilbert King will 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.440 be joining me to discuss something I've been working on 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.240 for two years. It'll be coming out in the Bone 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:05.560 Valley Feed very soon, so stay tuned for that. In 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.920 November of nineteen ninety five, the body of thirty four 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.679 year old Angela Young was found in her thirteenth floor apartment. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.480 She had been stabbed over sixty times. Angela lived in 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.520 the Chicago Projects in a building that was said to 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.640 be ruled by the notorious gangster Disciples. Rumor had it 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.959 that she was holding drugs for someone in the gang, 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:31.600 and that she had been killed in a drug related dispute. 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.280 Seventeen year old Salma Butler, who lived three floors below, 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.440 saw the police and sirens outside that day. 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.920 I could remember the day they found her body. It's 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.520 the project building, so everybody want to know what happened. 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.279 You know, someone was killed in the building. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.680 A few weeks later, Selma was picked up and arrested 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.040 for Angela's murder based on a statement that police had 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.840 taken from another teenaged boy during an unrelated interrogation. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.920 When we got in the car, the detective reached back 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.360 and grabbed my neck and he choked me out and 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.040 like spit on me and told me I did it, 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:14.359 andthing like he really spit in my face. My name 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.280 is Selma Butler. I was wrongfully convicted in nineteen ninety 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.080 five and I served twenty five years for a crime 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:21.760 I didn't. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:26.920 Commit from LoVa for good. This is wrongful conviction with 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:28.600 Maggie Freeling today. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:48.079 Selma Butler, Yeah, I grew up in Chicago in the projects, 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:49.919 the Robbert Taylor Projects. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.560 Selma Butler was born in nineteen sixty eight. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.600 My mom's passed away when I was thirteen, and my 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.880 father was incocrated, basically my entire He went to prison 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.560 when I was five, so he did the maximum of 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:05.320 like thirty. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.280 Did you have any kind of relationship with him? 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.840 Yeah? When I was younger, he used to like for 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.880 Christmas and toy cars and stuff and write letters and 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:15.720 things of that nature. 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:21.320 Did Sema had two older sisters. He was closest to 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.880 his sister, Lakeisha, who was two years older than him. 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.800 So what was growing up like where you grew up? 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:30.840 What did you guys do? What was life like? 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:34.399 It was fun, you know if he was in a project, 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.280 you know, you had all your friends and things like that, 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.640 so it wouldn't as hardsh as you would think it 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.200 would be. You know, by was living in the ghetto. 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.840 You know, it was loving in the household. 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.080 But gangs and gang violence were all around him. By 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.520 the time he reached first grade, Selma had already seen 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:53.720 his first shooting. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:57.240 Like I seen him they shot the garbage man, like 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.920 the guy to get the trash. And in that day, 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.800 I was probably like six or seven somewhere as they 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.080 shot like five six people out there that day, you know. 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.200 So and I was on the basketball court and I 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.800 seen it, you know what I mean. So you see 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:12.400 it like every day. 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.000 Were you scared? Is that scary to grow up like that? 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:20.120 Yeah? Yeah, it's real scary, you know, because I have 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.160 seen guys like come down from school and the guy 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.320 was like just dead out on the bench in front 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:25.960 of the building. 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:27.960 Were you worried something could happen to you? 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.520 Always? Really always, you know, not just me and my sisters, 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:39.520 you know, my family, friends, everybody's life. It's just not mine, 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.160 you know. And then I chose not to be part 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.640 of a game, even though like they automatically put all 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:48.840 us in the gang, right right, you know what I mean. 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.039 So it don't really matter if you're not in the gang. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.560 Is in the game when the police gonna see you 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.000 in the gang anyway, depending on where you live, you know, sure, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.520 you always find yourself at a disadvantage. 0:04:59.000 --> 0:04:59.159 You know. 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.560 You know, as kids, you have run ins with the 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.919 law and stuff like that. Not just like I'm a 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.320 saying to anything, you know, and I think it's in trouble. 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.200 Not no murderer, But I got in some trouble. 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.480 Despite getting into some trouble now and then, Selma resisted 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:21.800 the gang life. He had other ambitions, a rite. 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:26.160 I'm a writer. I didn't have any really hopes and 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.559 dreams like that because I really didn't have a good 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.160 foundation or direction on where I was going in life, 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.680 you know. I mean, I know, I enjoyed school, so 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.119 I went to school and things like that. I would 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.320 have loved to go to college, you know, like and 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:42.280 be something in life, you know, but I didn't, unfortunately, 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.960 get the opportunity to, you know, yeah, figure out like 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:48.280 how great I could be out here. 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:54.480 You know. When he was thirteen, Selma's mother died suddenly 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.719 from a brain aneurysm. After that, he went to stay 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.800 with his aunt and one of the other buildings in 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:03.440 the project on the tenth floor of forty three thirty 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:07.120 one South Federal. That's where he met Gino Wilson. 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.680 I love sports. I played basketball, baseball, and I met 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.960 Geno in a basketball court. He's really good at basketball. 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:19.320 So we met each other, Like through sports, what. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.880 Do you remember about him being good at basketball. I 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.560 don't play basketball, So what does that mean now? 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.160 That dude co that dude is that a dude coat? 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:33.839 Sa'ma butler. He lived in a community in Bronsville, Chicago, Illinois, 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.880 in a public housing authority Robert Taylor Holmes. It was 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:39.040 like a known area. 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.080 This is Ashley Cohen, partner at the Bonjean Law Group. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.279 She and Jennifer Bonjean have represented Selma on his post 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.040 conviction proceedings since twenty sixteen. 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.479 And there were four or five separate project buildings. Each 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.799 one of them was associated with a different gang. Basically 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.120 the building that he was in, the specific one was 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.560 allegedly run by the gangster Disciples at the time. And 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.200 if you think about it, it's a huge building. It's 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.200 a housing project. It's has sixteen floors, there's ten apartments 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.200 on each floor. It's a massive building. 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.880 When Selma was seventeen and Gino was fifteen, something happened 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.080 in that building that would change both of their lives. 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:31.480 On November thirteenth, nineteen ninety five, Angela Young is found 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:36.040 stabbed to death in her apartment. She has sixty five 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:41.360 stab wounds. The Medical Examiner opine that the wounds appeared 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.000 to have been caused by either a scissor or another 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:45.640 instrument with multiple blades. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.920 After Angela's body was found, the police were called. The 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.640 first person to speak with them was a neighbor by 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:56.680 the name of Hope Miller. 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:02.400 And according to her, she saw an unidentified male come 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:06.200 down the stairs and say there's a woman dead in 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:11.239 that apartment, and then she goes up with a fella 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.280 by the name of Andre Parks. They find her, and 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.640 then the police are called and they examined the scene. 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:27.000 The apartment was basically a disaster. A female black wig 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.960 was found by the front door. She was found in 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:35.240 the back bedroom. There's blood on the stove in the 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.040 front She's sitting in a pool of blood. There's blood 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:38.760 on the walls. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:51.560 I can remember the day they found her body because 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.080 you know, it's the Project building, so everybody want to 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.520 know what happened. You know, someone's killed in the building, 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.320 you know, because I could recall like coming out the 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.120 house and looking off the porch and seeing all the 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.480 police cars down there and things like that, and I 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.680 can recall I was I stayed ten o three. Miss 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.200 Young stayed three floors above being thirteen oh one, everybody 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.640 knew everybody in up building. That's how I knew Miss Young. 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:18.000 I knew her daughters. Her daughter Shamiko was our age 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.920 and she was pretty. So Gino liked her, so you know, 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.640 so you know, he like so, yeah, That's how I 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.520 knew Miss Young. I never had a conversation with Miss Young, 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:29.560 but I knew her, like you know, how you doing 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:31.120 type of switch, you know. 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:36.320 And then the investigation ensues. But as I know from 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.760 doing wrongful conviction work, I never trust what's in police reports, 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.320 but it gives a little bit of a framework of 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:47.720 what happened. After they find the body, they interview a 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.480 bunch of witnesses. So Gina Wilson was one of the 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.120 people that they interviewed. Hoult Miller is one of the 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.400 people that they interviewed, and Andre Parks is another one 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:01.520 that they interviewed. And Gino in his his original interview 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.040 to the police, if you believe it, he basically says 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.520 that he went up to the apartment and that he 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:13.240 had been dating one of Angela's daughters and was going 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.640 up to the apartment to go to see his girlfriend 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.760 and he discovers the body. The police kind of ran 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:21.199 with that. 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.480 S almost says he hadn't been anywhere near the apartment, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.040 but somehow, during an entirely separate police interrogation on a 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.160 different matter, his name got pulled into the case. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.800 The Area One detectives claimed that two teenagers, Earl Gilmore, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.400 who was fourteen years old at the time but he 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.679 was in seventh grade or sixth grade, and Antonio Thomas, 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.000 who is sixteen years old. They were both in custody 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:54.880 for unrelated charges. Apparently Earl Gilmour was violating a curfew 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.480 because you know, you just lock people up for violating 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:03.000 their curfew back then. So detectives have two teenagers in 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:07.680 custody who they know don't have parents present, are underage, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:14.440 easily coursed, easily manipulated, and basically they tell them somebody died, 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.280 and you're going to tell us who did it, and 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.199 you're going to tell us the story of what happened. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:23.120 According to the police, they volunteered that they were present 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.520 for the murder of young and that they did it 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.920 with Gina Wilson and Selma Butler. There's this story that 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:36.240 Angela basically was holding marijuana in her apartment for Gina 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.360 Wilson and Selma Butler. And the reason that they killed 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.200 her was because they discovered that three bags of marijuana 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:48.320 was missing from the stash that she was holding. So naturally, 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.880 three bags of marijuana equates to sixty six stab wounds. 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.280 And that's how they kind of get their narrative. 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.880 And did you know, Gilmore didn't know. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.000 Gilmore didn't know Antonio Thomas never hung out with him 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.200 or nothing. He was in the sixth grade. I was 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.720 a junior, you know, so he was a little kid. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:11.280 On November thirteenth, nineteen ninety five, Earl Gilmore testified before 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.160 a grand jury that he had seen Selma and Gino 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.240 punch and stab angela young in her bedroom. Earl was 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.120 fourteen years old. There was no adult present while he 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.160 was being questioned by police, and he was not allowed 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.880 to leave police custody until he had given testimony. A 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.480 few days later, Selma and Gino were both arrested and 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.200 charged with first degree murder. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.520 I was took it to the police station and they 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:41.920 just set me in a room for a long time. 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.160 When I officer finally came in, I can't recall his 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.920 name or whatever, he explained why I was there. Saying 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.120 that my name came up in a murder. They said, 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.680 I killed my young whatever the case may be like, 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:53.440 And I explained to him, like, yo, I could I 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.320 kill someone. I got on the same clothes I had 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.800 on yesterday, you know, Like I got on the same clothes, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.280 so I would just you know, I couldn't, you know. 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.720 So I asked for a polygraph test, and they took 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.120 me to take a polygraph test, and we came back. 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.640 They never gave me the results. But when we got 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.560 in the car, the detective reached back and grabbed my 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.040 neck and he choked me out and like spit on 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:16.720 me and told me I did it, and things like 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.360 he really spit in my face. 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.120 You were seventeen? Did you have an attorney with you? 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:24.720 I did? 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:26.719 Did you know you could? 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:27.840 Nah? 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:28.679 Not really nine? 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:31.800 So they didn't tell you you had to write to 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:33.200 an attorney. 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.800 No, not that I can recall. I was sent to 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.600 the county jail at the time I was seventeen. I 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.600 was five feet ninety pounds. I mean I was placed 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.600 in the county jail and that was the head. 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.720 Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.600 You can listen to this and all the Lava for 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.640 Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:20.960 to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. In June 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.160 of nineteen ninety eight, Gino Wilson and Selma Butler both 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.360 went to trial separately before Judge Joseph Urso. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.440 Gino goes to trial first, he chooses to have a 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:40.080 bench trial before Judge Urso and he's acquitted. A trial 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.160 Judge Ursau finds him not guilty. So my client then 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:45.400 goes to trial. 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:48.880 How come you opted for a bench trial? 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.480 My attorney, he made ee made the suggested because Gino 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.280 Wilson was acquitted. So he was like, well, if Gino 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:59.480 Wilson was acquitted, we have the same opportunities would have 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:00.000 bench draped. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.600 So when you're at trial, did you think everything was 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:06.640 going okay? Did you think it was going to wind 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:08.400 up the same as Geno's and you'd be acquitted. 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.560 Yes, ma'am, I did. Once they realized that he didn't 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.240 do it, then I figured like, uh, they don't realize 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.440 I didn't do it as well. That was the case. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:24.680 The trial was appalling, So George Grizzecca represented my client, 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:29.960 Sama Butler and Joe mcgattz prosecuted my client. He waves 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:36.080 opening arguments. Selma's attorney waves opening arguments, and there was 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:42.960 a total of five witnesses. The trial lasted maybe all 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.600 of forty five minutes. There were a total of thirteen 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.840 questions asked by Selma's attorney to all of the witnesses. 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.600 I've never been to trial, you know, so I figured 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.760 this hat trial. Go somebody, you know, And then I 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:59.560 thought he did a good job. I didn't know better. 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.280 Earl Gilmore was brought in to testify for the prosecution. 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.520 Like I prayed to God that Gilmore come to court 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.720 and tell the truth, which he did. 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:11.440 So I was hopeful. 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.920 I was afraid, but I was hopeful as well, you know. 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.440 Earl Gilmore gets on the stand and then Earl begins 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:23.160 his testimony by saying that whoever brought him over to 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.680 the grand jury basically said go along with everything they 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:28.720 tell you, and that's why he did. 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.000 Remember while he was being held in police custody, Earl 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.400 testified before the grand jury that Selma and Gino had 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:40.000 killed Angela. When he appeared at Thoma's trial two and 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.280 a half years later, Earl tried his best to walk 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.880 back his previous testimony. 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.200 He actually, to his credit Dawes say, he says, when 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.920 I was taken to the police station, I didn't know 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.320 what I was taken there for while we got you. 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:57.520 Now we're going to charge you with this case if 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.360 you don't go along with what we tell you. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.280 But despite his recantation, the prosecution was still able to 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.680 admit Earl's initial grand jury statement as evidence. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.080 And how they present this is they say, you know, 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.520 did you take an oath to tell the truth before 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.800 you testified? And he says yes. And when you testified 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.840 before the grand jury, you were asked the following questions 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.160 and did you give the following answers? 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.280 So they basically put. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.000 Him in a scenario where he has to say, yes, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.919 I did give those answers. They're putting him in a 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:33.320 perjury trap because if he says anything other than that, 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.119 he can be charged with perjury for lying to the 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:40.679 grand jury. Then they continue asking him questions or you 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.320 asked this question, did you give this answer? And he 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.679 says yes, I was forced, Yes, I was forced, And 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.240 that's kind of how the narrative. But they get in 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.840 the substance of the grand jury testimony, and that's the 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.960 evidence that was ultimately used to convict Selma. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:00.560 On October twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, less than an 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.880 hour after the trial started, Judge Urso found Selma guilty 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.800 of first degree murder. He was sentenced to fifty years 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:09.399 in prison. 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:12.879 I'm being more often in cost ready for a crab. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:18.000 I didn't commit No, I was, I was hurt. 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:20.879 I cried, I cried, I cried. 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:22.480 I cried every day I cried. 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.480 Do you think, I guess do you think racism played 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.159 a part in your case? Just lumping just because you 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.960 lived in this building, because of your skin color, they 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.479 said you were a gang member and really kind of 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.040 just determined your faith that way. 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.639 Yeah. I say that in the sense of, like I 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.080 probably know hundreds of people in the same situation that 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.560 I'm in that's not given the opportunity to talk to you, 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:57.080 but half the same exact situation. You know, Like when 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.840 you think about what Joseph mcgatz did, because he was 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.280 the state's attorney on this case, and like the little 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.400 evidence that he used to convict me, how many other 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.600 people was done like this? You know, African American poor 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.200 people that couldn't afford attorneys and things like that. You 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.600 know how many other people was done like. 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:16.040 This, you know. 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:21.639 So yeah, race played the part, poverty paid the part. 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.560 You know. I was afraid, and then I was really little, 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:44.640 you know, I was a little little. I was only 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.240 five feet. I was afraid, you know. You know, then 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.920 you're around all these guys that didn't committed crimes and 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.359 stuff like that, and murders and things like that, and 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.439 you know, you not that guy, you know what I mean, 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.720 I'm not that guy that's here tough and all that. 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:03.520 You know. So I was hurt and afraid. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.960 Within a year or so, Selma began studying at the 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.719 prison law library in order to appeal his case. His 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.640 first appeals in two thousand and two thousand and four 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.560 were dismissed, but he kept at it and eventually that 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.480 led him to someone who would become very important in 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:22.280 helping him survive life in prison. 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.359 I'll never forget is the lady named Miss Flowers, and 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.040 she runs the law library. She seen my name, My 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.280 name is unique Selma, and she asks me, she said, 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.440 do you have a sibling by the name of Selma? 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:38.919 That I said, my father. She said, you know you 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:42.119 work here so the whole time my father worked in 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:43.240 the library. 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.560 So you got to know your dad from inside prison. 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:47.720 That is unusual. 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:50.800 It was due to the fact I haven't seen him 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.359 in so long since I was like five. When I 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.760 met him, I was actually impressed on how intelligent he was, 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.560 like because he studied law and he didn't help guys 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:02.399 get out of prison and things of that nature. So 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.040 he he's a blessing. He was actually myself made for 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:07.240 for quite some time. 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:07.520 You know. 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:09.720 Wow, wait, so what was that like? 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:12.600 It was a blessing due to the fact I asked 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:16.119 somebody there that was guiding me and things of that nature. 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.200 And then you know, so it's a blessing. It was 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:20.879 a blase, it was. It was horrible. It was with 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:21.959 him still a blessing. You know. 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.440 Did he give you advice on, you know, how to 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:27.240 survive in there or anything. 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:29.640 Yeah, in the sense, you know, state of yourself, mind, 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.359 your business, you know what I mean. You know, go 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.200 to school. I went to school, made the President's list 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.760 a couple of times in college, you know, so you know, 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.480 I mean, you know, no, just put my head down. 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:42.480 It sucked that I was there for something I didn't do, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:43.879 but I tried to make the best of it. 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:45.199 You know, did he believe you? 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.600 Yeah, well he do laws. So he read the case 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:51.520 and knew that I was innocent, you know what I mean. 0:21:51.640 --> 0:22:00.480 So, in addition to reconnecting with his father, there was 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.959 another family member that helped Selma get through prison. 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:08.800 I am Linda Butler. I am Selma's niece. I know 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.600 him all my life, even though it was of course 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:13.600 telephonically while he was in prison. 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.399 Linda is the daughter of Selma's sister, Lakeisha. She was 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:19.960 just a baby when he went to prison, but she 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:22.520 says he's always been a big part of her life. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:23.879 Lakeisha made sure of that. 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.880 She talked to all of us about it. She's she's 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.560 a mother of five, and she just all I remember 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:33.080 is her, you know, supporting him, having to put money 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:35.480 on the phone, to the point where it groomed us 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:38.199 to do the same thing, you know, like this this 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.240 has become our norm. We got an uncle in jail 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.080 for some he didn't do like this is our norm. 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.639 Selma was at the Minard Correctional Center, nearly four hundred 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:52.640 miles from Chicago, so throughout the first decade of Linda's life, 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.919 their relationship was only by phone. 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:58.600 We made the best out of it, you know, as 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:01.280