1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, it's Maggie today. I'm sharing an interview I 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: did last year, but we chose to hold off on 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: releasing it. At the time, Selma Butler was working on 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: his post conviction relief, so we didn't want to risk 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: slowing down his pursuit of justice in the courts. But sadly, 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: despite strong evidence of his innocence, Selma's request for post 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: conviction relief has been denied. Now, for the second time, 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: he has to go before the Illinois Appellet Court to 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: continue his fight. Selma's story is a painful reminder of 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: how our justice system can fail and how easily innocent 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: people can pay the price, how easy it is to 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: lock someone up and how hard it is to get 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: them out. I also want you to be the first 14 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: to hear that next week, I'll be making a very 15 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: big announcement. My LoVa for Good colleague Gilbert King will 16 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: be joining me to discuss something I've been working on 17 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: for two years. It'll be coming out in the Bone 18 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: Valley Feed very soon, so stay tuned for that. In 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: November of nineteen ninety five, the body of thirty four 20 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: year old Angela Young was found in her thirteenth floor apartment. 21 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: She had been stabbed over sixty times. Angela lived in 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: the Chicago Projects in a building that was said to 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: be ruled by the notorious gangster Disciples. Rumor had it 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: that she was holding drugs for someone in the gang, 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: and that she had been killed in a drug related dispute. 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: Seventeen year old Salma Butler, who lived three floors below, 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: saw the police and sirens outside that day. 28 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: I could remember the day they found her body. It's 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: the project building, so everybody want to know what happened. 30 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 2: You know, someone was killed in the building. 31 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: A few weeks later, Selma was picked up and arrested 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: for Angela's murder based on a statement that police had 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: taken from another teenaged boy during an unrelated interrogation. 34 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: When we got in the car, the detective reached back 35 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: and grabbed my neck and he choked me out and 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: like spit on me and told me I did it, 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 2: andthing like he really spit in my face. My name 38 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: is Selma Butler. I was wrongfully convicted in nineteen ninety 39 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: five and I served twenty five years for a crime 40 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: I didn't. 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: Commit from LoVa for good. This is wrongful conviction with 42 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today. 43 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 2: Selma Butler, Yeah, I grew up in Chicago in the projects, 44 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 2: the Robbert Taylor Projects. 45 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: Selma Butler was born in nineteen sixty eight. 46 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: My mom's passed away when I was thirteen, and my 47 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: father was incocrated, basically my entire He went to prison 48 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: when I was five, so he did the maximum of 49 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: like thirty. 50 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: Did you have any kind of relationship with him? 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? When I was younger, he used to like for 52 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: Christmas and toy cars and stuff and write letters and 53 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: things of that nature. 54 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: Did Sema had two older sisters. He was closest to 55 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: his sister, Lakeisha, who was two years older than him. 56 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: So what was growing up like where you grew up? 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 3: What did you guys do? What was life like? 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 2: It was fun, you know if he was in a project, 59 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: you know, you had all your friends and things like that, 60 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: so it wouldn't as hardsh as you would think it 61 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: would be. You know, by was living in the ghetto. 62 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: You know, it was loving in the household. 63 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: But gangs and gang violence were all around him. By 64 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: the time he reached first grade, Selma had already seen 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: his first shooting. 66 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: Like I seen him they shot the garbage man, like 67 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: the guy to get the trash. And in that day, 68 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: I was probably like six or seven somewhere as they 69 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: shot like five six people out there that day, you know. 70 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: So and I was on the basketball court and I 71 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: seen it, you know what I mean. So you see 72 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: it like every day. 73 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: Were you scared? Is that scary to grow up like that? 74 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's real scary, you know, because I have 75 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: seen guys like come down from school and the guy 76 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: was like just dead out on the bench in front 77 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: of the building. 78 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: Were you worried something could happen to you? 79 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: Always? Really always, you know, not just me and my sisters, 80 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: you know, my family, friends, everybody's life. It's just not mine, 81 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 2: you know. And then I chose not to be part 82 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: of a game, even though like they automatically put all 83 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: us in the gang, right right, you know what I mean. 84 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 2: So it don't really matter if you're not in the gang. 85 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: Is in the game when the police gonna see you 86 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: in the gang anyway, depending on where you live, you know, sure, 87 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: you always find yourself at a disadvantage. 88 00:04:59,000 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 4: You know. 89 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: You know, as kids, you have run ins with the 90 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 2: law and stuff like that. Not just like I'm a 91 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: saying to anything, you know, and I think it's in trouble. 92 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: Not no murderer, But I got in some trouble. 93 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: Despite getting into some trouble now and then, Selma resisted 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: the gang life. He had other ambitions, a rite. 95 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 2: I'm a writer. I didn't have any really hopes and 96 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 2: dreams like that because I really didn't have a good 97 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 2: foundation or direction on where I was going in life, 98 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I know, I enjoyed school, so 99 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,119 Speaker 2: I went to school and things like that. I would 100 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: have loved to go to college, you know, like and 101 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: be something in life, you know, but I didn't, unfortunately, 102 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: get the opportunity to, you know, yeah, figure out like 103 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: how great I could be out here. 104 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: You know. When he was thirteen, Selma's mother died suddenly 105 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: from a brain aneurysm. After that, he went to stay 106 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: with his aunt and one of the other buildings in 107 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: the project on the tenth floor of forty three thirty 108 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: one South Federal. That's where he met Gino Wilson. 109 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: I love sports. I played basketball, baseball, and I met 110 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: Geno in a basketball court. He's really good at basketball. 111 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: So we met each other, Like through sports, what. 112 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: Do you remember about him being good at basketball. I 113 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: don't play basketball, So what does that mean now? 114 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 2: That dude co that dude is that a dude coat? 115 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 5: Sa'ma butler. He lived in a community in Bronsville, Chicago, Illinois, 116 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 5: in a public housing authority Robert Taylor Holmes. It was 117 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 5: like a known area. 118 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: This is Ashley Cohen, partner at the Bonjean Law Group. 119 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: She and Jennifer Bonjean have represented Selma on his post 120 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: conviction proceedings since twenty sixteen. 121 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 5: And there were four or five separate project buildings. Each 122 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 5: one of them was associated with a different gang. Basically 123 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 5: the building that he was in, the specific one was 124 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 5: allegedly run by the gangster Disciples at the time. And 125 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 5: if you think about it, it's a huge building. It's 126 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 5: a housing project. It's has sixteen floors, there's ten apartments 127 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 5: on each floor. It's a massive building. 128 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: When Selma was seventeen and Gino was fifteen, something happened 129 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: in that building that would change both of their lives. 130 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 5: On November thirteenth, nineteen ninety five, Angela Young is found 131 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 5: stabbed to death in her apartment. She has sixty five 132 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 5: stab wounds. The Medical Examiner opine that the wounds appeared 133 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 5: to have been caused by either a scissor or another 134 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 5: instrument with multiple blades. 135 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: After Angela's body was found, the police were called. The 136 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: first person to speak with them was a neighbor by 137 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: the name of Hope Miller. 138 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 5: And according to her, she saw an unidentified male come 139 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 5: down the stairs and say there's a woman dead in 140 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 5: that apartment, and then she goes up with a fella 141 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 5: by the name of Andre Parks. They find her, and 142 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 5: then the police are called and they examined the scene. 143 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 5: The apartment was basically a disaster. A female black wig 144 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 5: was found by the front door. She was found in 145 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 5: the back bedroom. There's blood on the stove in the 146 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 5: front She's sitting in a pool of blood. There's blood 147 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 5: on the walls. 148 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: I can remember the day they found her body because 149 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: you know, it's the Project building, so everybody want to 150 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: know what happened. You know, someone's killed in the building, 151 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 2: you know, because I could recall like coming out the 152 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: house and looking off the porch and seeing all the 153 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: police cars down there and things like that, and I 154 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 2: can recall I was I stayed ten o three. Miss 155 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: Young stayed three floors above being thirteen oh one, everybody 156 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: knew everybody in up building. That's how I knew Miss Young. 157 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: I knew her daughters. Her daughter Shamiko was our age 158 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: and she was pretty. So Gino liked her, so you know, 159 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: so you know, he like so, yeah, That's how I 160 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: knew Miss Young. I never had a conversation with Miss Young, 161 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 2: but I knew her, like you know, how you doing 162 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: type of switch, you know. 163 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 5: And then the investigation ensues. But as I know from 164 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 5: doing wrongful conviction work, I never trust what's in police reports, 165 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 5: but it gives a little bit of a framework of 166 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 5: what happened. After they find the body, they interview a 167 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 5: bunch of witnesses. So Gina Wilson was one of the 168 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 5: people that they interviewed. Hoult Miller is one of the 169 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 5: people that they interviewed, and Andre Parks is another one 170 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 5: that they interviewed. And Gino in his his original interview 171 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 5: to the police, if you believe it, he basically says 172 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 5: that he went up to the apartment and that he 173 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 5: had been dating one of Angela's daughters and was going 174 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 5: up to the apartment to go to see his girlfriend 175 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 5: and he discovers the body. The police kind of ran 176 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 5: with that. 177 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: S almost says he hadn't been anywhere near the apartment, 178 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: but somehow, during an entirely separate police interrogation on a 179 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: different matter, his name got pulled into the case. 180 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 5: The Area One detectives claimed that two teenagers, Earl Gilmore, 181 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 5: who was fourteen years old at the time but he 182 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 5: was in seventh grade or sixth grade, and Antonio Thomas, 183 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 5: who is sixteen years old. They were both in custody 184 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 5: for unrelated charges. Apparently Earl Gilmour was violating a curfew 185 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 5: because you know, you just lock people up for violating 186 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 5: their curfew back then. So detectives have two teenagers in 187 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 5: custody who they know don't have parents present, are underage, 188 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 5: easily coursed, easily manipulated, and basically they tell them somebody died, 189 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 5: and you're going to tell us who did it, and 190 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 5: you're going to tell us the story of what happened. 191 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 5: According to the police, they volunteered that they were present 192 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 5: for the murder of young and that they did it 193 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 5: with Gina Wilson and Selma Butler. There's this story that 194 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 5: Angela basically was holding marijuana in her apartment for Gina 195 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 5: Wilson and Selma Butler. And the reason that they killed 196 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 5: her was because they discovered that three bags of marijuana 197 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 5: was missing from the stash that she was holding. So naturally, 198 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 5: three bags of marijuana equates to sixty six stab wounds. 199 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 5: And that's how they kind of get their narrative. 200 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: And did you know, Gilmore didn't know. 201 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: Gilmore didn't know Antonio Thomas never hung out with him 202 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: or nothing. He was in the sixth grade. I was 203 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: a junior, you know, so he was a little kid. 204 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: On November thirteenth, nineteen ninety five, Earl Gilmore testified before 205 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: a grand jury that he had seen Selma and Gino 206 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: punch and stab angela young in her bedroom. Earl was 207 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: fourteen years old. There was no adult present while he 208 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: was being questioned by police, and he was not allowed 209 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: to leave police custody until he had given testimony. A 210 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: few days later, Selma and Gino were both arrested and 211 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: charged with first degree murder. 212 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: I was took it to the police station and they 213 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: just set me in a room for a long time. 214 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 2: When I officer finally came in, I can't recall his 215 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: name or whatever, he explained why I was there. Saying 216 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 2: that my name came up in a murder. They said, 217 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 2: I killed my young whatever the case may be like, 218 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 2: And I explained to him, like, yo, I could I 219 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: kill someone. I got on the same clothes I had 220 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: on yesterday, you know, Like I got on the same clothes, 221 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: so I would just you know, I couldn't, you know. 222 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: So I asked for a polygraph test, and they took 223 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: me to take a polygraph test, and we came back. 224 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: They never gave me the results. But when we got 225 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 2: in the car, the detective reached back and grabbed my 226 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: neck and he choked me out and like spit on 227 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 2: me and told me I did it, and things like 228 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: he really spit in my face. 229 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: You were seventeen? Did you have an attorney with you? 230 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: I did? 231 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 3: Did you know you could? 232 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 5: Nah? 233 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 2: Not really nine? 234 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: So they didn't tell you you had to write to 235 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: an attorney. 236 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: No, not that I can recall. I was sent to 237 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: the county jail at the time I was seventeen. I 238 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: was five feet ninety pounds. I mean I was placed 239 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: in the county jail and that was the head. 240 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 241 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for 242 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing 243 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. In June 244 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety eight, Gino Wilson and Selma Butler both 245 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: went to trial separately before Judge Joseph Urso. 246 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 5: Gino goes to trial first, he chooses to have a 247 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 5: bench trial before Judge Urso and he's acquitted. A trial 248 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 5: Judge Ursau finds him not guilty. So my client then 249 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 5: goes to trial. 250 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: How come you opted for a bench trial? 251 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 2: My attorney, he made ee made the suggested because Gino 252 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 2: Wilson was acquitted. So he was like, well, if Gino 253 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: Wilson was acquitted, we have the same opportunities would have 254 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: bench draped. 255 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: So when you're at trial, did you think everything was 256 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: going okay? Did you think it was going to wind 257 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: up the same as Geno's and you'd be acquitted. 258 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am, I did. Once they realized that he didn't 259 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: do it, then I figured like, uh, they don't realize 260 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: I didn't do it as well. That was the case. 261 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 5: The trial was appalling, So George Grizzecca represented my client, 262 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 5: Sama Butler and Joe mcgattz prosecuted my client. He waves 263 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 5: opening arguments. Selma's attorney waves opening arguments, and there was 264 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 5: a total of five witnesses. The trial lasted maybe all 265 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 5: of forty five minutes. There were a total of thirteen 266 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 5: questions asked by Selma's attorney to all of the witnesses. 267 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: I've never been to trial, you know, so I figured 268 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 2: this hat trial. Go somebody, you know, And then I 269 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: thought he did a good job. I didn't know better. 270 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: Earl Gilmore was brought in to testify for the prosecution. 271 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: Like I prayed to God that Gilmore come to court 272 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: and tell the truth, which he did. 273 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: So I was hopeful. 274 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: I was afraid, but I was hopeful as well, you know. 275 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 5: Earl Gilmore gets on the stand and then Earl begins 276 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 5: his testimony by saying that whoever brought him over to 277 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 5: the grand jury basically said go along with everything they 278 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 5: tell you, and that's why he did. 279 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: Remember while he was being held in police custody, Earl 280 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: testified before the grand jury that Selma and Gino had 281 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: killed Angela. When he appeared at Thoma's trial two and 282 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: a half years later, Earl tried his best to walk 283 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: back his previous testimony. 284 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 5: He actually, to his credit Dawes say, he says, when 285 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 5: I was taken to the police station, I didn't know 286 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 5: what I was taken there for while we got you. 287 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 5: Now we're going to charge you with this case if 288 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 5: you don't go along with what we tell you. 289 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: But despite his recantation, the prosecution was still able to 290 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: admit Earl's initial grand jury statement as evidence. 291 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 5: And how they present this is they say, you know, 292 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 5: did you take an oath to tell the truth before 293 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 5: you testified? And he says yes. And when you testified 294 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 5: before the grand jury, you were asked the following questions 295 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 5: and did you give the following answers? 296 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 3: So they basically put. 297 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 5: Him in a scenario where he has to say, yes, 298 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 5: I did give those answers. They're putting him in a 299 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 5: perjury trap because if he says anything other than that, 300 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 5: he can be charged with perjury for lying to the 301 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 5: grand jury. Then they continue asking him questions or you 302 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 5: asked this question, did you give this answer? And he 303 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 5: says yes, I was forced, Yes, I was forced, And 304 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 5: that's kind of how the narrative. But they get in 305 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 5: the substance of the grand jury testimony, and that's the 306 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 5: evidence that was ultimately used to convict Selma. 307 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: On October twenty eighth, nineteen ninety eight, less than an 308 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: hour after the trial started, Judge Urso found Selma guilty 309 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: of first degree murder. He was sentenced to fifty years 310 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: in prison. 311 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: I'm being more often in cost ready for a crab. 312 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: I didn't commit No, I was, I was hurt. 313 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: I cried, I cried, I cried. 314 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: I cried every day I cried. 315 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: Do you think, I guess do you think racism played 316 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: a part in your case? Just lumping just because you 317 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: lived in this building, because of your skin color, they 318 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: said you were a gang member and really kind of 319 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: just determined your faith that way. 320 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. I say that in the sense of, like I 321 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: probably know hundreds of people in the same situation that 322 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: I'm in that's not given the opportunity to talk to you, 323 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: but half the same exact situation. You know, Like when 324 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: you think about what Joseph mcgatz did, because he was 325 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: the state's attorney on this case, and like the little 326 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: evidence that he used to convict me, how many other 327 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: people was done like this? You know, African American poor 328 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 2: people that couldn't afford attorneys and things like that. You 329 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: know how many other people was done like. 330 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 3: This, you know. 331 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 2: So yeah, race played the part, poverty paid the part. 332 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: You know. I was afraid, and then I was really little, 333 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 2: you know, I was a little little. I was only 334 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: five feet. I was afraid, you know. You know, then 335 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: you're around all these guys that didn't committed crimes and 336 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 2: stuff like that, and murders and things like that, and 337 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 2: you know, you not that guy, you know what I mean, 338 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: I'm not that guy that's here tough and all that. 339 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: You know. So I was hurt and afraid. 340 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: Within a year or so, Selma began studying at the 341 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: prison law library in order to appeal his case. His 342 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: first appeals in two thousand and two thousand and four 343 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: were dismissed, but he kept at it and eventually that 344 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: led him to someone who would become very important in 345 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: helping him survive life in prison. 346 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: I'll never forget is the lady named Miss Flowers, and 347 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: she runs the law library. She seen my name, My 348 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: name is unique Selma, and she asks me, she said, 349 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: do you have a sibling by the name of Selma? 350 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: That I said, my father. She said, you know you 351 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: work here so the whole time my father worked in 352 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: the library. 353 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: So you got to know your dad from inside prison. 354 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: That is unusual. 355 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: It was due to the fact I haven't seen him 356 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: in so long since I was like five. When I 357 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: met him, I was actually impressed on how intelligent he was, 358 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: like because he studied law and he didn't help guys 359 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 2: get out of prison and things of that nature. So 360 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: he he's a blessing. He was actually myself made for 361 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: for quite some time. 362 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 4: You know. 363 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 3: Wow, wait, so what was that like? 364 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: It was a blessing due to the fact I asked 365 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: somebody there that was guiding me and things of that nature. 366 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 2: And then you know, so it's a blessing. It was 367 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: a blase, it was. It was horrible. It was with 368 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 2: him still a blessing. You know. 369 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: Did he give you advice on, you know, how to 370 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: survive in there or anything. 371 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the sense, you know, state of yourself, mind, 372 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: your business, you know what I mean. You know, go 373 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: to school. I went to school, made the President's list 374 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: a couple of times in college, you know, so you know, 375 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, no, just put my head down. 376 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: It sucked that I was there for something I didn't do, 377 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 2: but I tried to make the best of it. 378 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 3: You know, did he believe you? 379 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well he do laws. So he read the case 380 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: and knew that I was innocent, you know what I mean. 381 00:21:51,640 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: So, in addition to reconnecting with his father, there was 382 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,959 Speaker 1: another family member that helped Selma get through prison. 383 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 6: I am Linda Butler. I am Selma's niece. I know 384 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 6: him all my life, even though it was of course 385 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 6: telephonically while he was in prison. 386 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: Linda is the daughter of Selma's sister, Lakeisha. She was 387 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: just a baby when he went to prison, but she 388 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: says he's always been a big part of her life. 389 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: Lakeisha made sure of that. 390 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 6: She talked to all of us about it. She's she's 391 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 6: a mother of five, and she just all I remember 392 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 6: is her, you know, supporting him, having to put money 393 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 6: on the phone, to the point where it groomed us 394 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 6: to do the same thing, you know, like this this 395 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 6: has become our norm. We got an uncle in jail 396 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 6: for some he didn't do like this is our norm. 397 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: Selma was at the Minard Correctional Center, nearly four hundred 398 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: miles from Chicago, so throughout the first decade of Linda's life, 399 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: their relationship was only by phone. 400 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 6: We made the best out of it, you know, as 401 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 6: far as like when he got but of course it 402 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 6: was very limited, you know, like when he called, we'll 403 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 6: try to Oh uncle, can you, you know, help me 404 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 6: write this? Can you you know? Just I just I 405 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 6: think it was hot. I feel like it was heartbreaking. 406 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 6: And I remember when I was seven years old. Well, 407 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 6: I was turning seven, and he was like, I'm gonna 408 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 6: come home for your birthday. I'm coming home for your birthday. 409 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: She was seven years old. I told her she her 410 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 2: birthday was coming, and I told her, well, I'll be. 411 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: On for your birthday. 412 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, okay. 413 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: And on the day of her birthday, I called her 414 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: to wish happy birthday. She told me out lied. 415 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 6: To her, and I just remember being heartbroken. I didn't 416 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 6: want to talk to him on the phone, and when 417 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 6: my mom was like, just talk to your uncle, and 418 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 6: he like, he was like, I'm sorry, you know, but 419 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 6: I didn't know any better. 420 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: When Linda was around seven years old, Lakeisha arranged for 421 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: the family to visit Selma in prison, and Linda couldn't 422 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: wait to finally meet her uncle in person. She remembers 423 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: that they had to get up in the middle of 424 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: the night to catch the bus. 425 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 6: And we rode eight hours and they turned us around. 426 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: Wow. 427 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 6: Why because I think the prison just went on lockdown 428 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 6: and all that. And mind you, my mom and single mom. 429 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 6: So the money that she put into it, she don't 430 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 6: get it back. You know. 431 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: Linda and Selma didn't meet face to face until she 432 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: was eleven years old. 433 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 6: Oh my god, we had so much to talk about. 434 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 6: I was able to touch his hand. I was super 435 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 6: excited could in my mind, I literally didn't know that 436 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 6: he had a face like cause all I know, you know, 437 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 6: is him being over the phone. We not have pictures 438 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 6: because he was so young when he was away. So 439 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 6: when I first saw him, he just had this little 440 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 6: smirk on his face, and I'm like, you look like 441 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 6: my mama. 442 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: Over the years, throughout his appeals, Linda and Selma remained close. 443 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: She sent me money to send letters that I write 444 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 2: to different attorneys and stuff like that, because it costs 445 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: like seven bucks to send out my path. So she 446 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 2: would make sure I have money to send to send 447 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: my mail out and stuff like that. And she was young, 448 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 2: she's probably nineteen twenty, you know what I mean. But 449 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 2: she's been there on my entire life, you know, I mean. 450 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: For a time, Linda even worked as a corrections officer. 451 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 3: You decided to go into. 452 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: Corrections, which is interesting because your uncle's in prison. 453 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 3: So what prompted that? What motivated thought? I don't know. 454 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 6: I just I guess I was. I wanted to know. 455 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 6: And when I went into correction, I'm like, Oh my god, 456 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 6: this is how my uncle's living. He's caged, this is 457 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 6: his life. Them having to go to bed when they're 458 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 6: being told to go to bed, the stuff they had 459 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 6: to eat, and them not being around their family. It 460 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 6: just gave me a whole outlook on life, like, oh 461 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 6: my god, in the blink of eye anything, So I 462 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 6: got to take life seriously. 463 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 1: Thirteen, with the help of a pro bono attorney, Selma 464 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: filed a second motion for DNA testing, which was granted. 465 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 2: I realized DNA was my case couse, miss Young she 466 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: had skin ut her and nails. So once I realized that, 467 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: I filed for DNA. 468 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 5: Testing, and then the conviction integrity unit decided to undertake 469 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 5: an investigation into his claims. 470 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: Fabio Valatini, he was in chart at the integrity on 471 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: it at the time, and he said he wanted to 472 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 2: redo the DNA test because you wanted to cross his 473 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 2: t's and got his eyes. And they gave me a 474 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: court date of July twenty eighth. So I'm thinking, I'm 475 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 2: gonna go home. So I gave away all my items, 476 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: my food and everything, and my T shirts and stuff. 477 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: But when Selma got to court that day, no one 478 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: was there for him, no one from the Conviction Integrity 479 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 1: Unit and no one from his attorney's office. 480 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 2: And I had to go back to NRC, which is 481 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 2: State Ville, and I was crushed. My soul was crushed. 482 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 2: So I wrote you to court and they told me 483 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 2: my case was off call, which something I never heard of. 484 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: So I was in court, but I never had a 485 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 2: court date for like a year. 486 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: At that point. Selma wrote to Bonjen Law Group. 487 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 5: And we started representing him pro bono in twenty sixteen, 488 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 5: and we basically started from the beginning. 489 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: And that included reinvestigating the DNA evidence, what there was 490 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: of it. 491 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 5: What's so difficult about a case like Selma's is when 492 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 5: there's no evidence to begin with, it's really hard to 493 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 5: unravel it because there's really no evidence in the first instance. 494 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 5: You know, it's not a cut and dry DNA case. 495 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 5: So you know the DNA evidence, it excluded selma from 496 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 5: two of the bloodstains, but the victim's fingernails had five 497 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 5: male profiles and could have been sixty four percent of 498 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 5: the population, and he was not excluded from that mixture. 499 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 5: And then another stain he was excluded from was the 500 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 5: top kitchen gas range and that was a mixture of 501 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 5: two male profiles and he was excluded from that. The 502 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 5: problem with the DNA and what the CiU ultimately kind 503 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 5: of hung their hat on is like, well, he's not excluded, 504 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 5: so we can't say it's exonerating, right. 505 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: Ashley's team also wanted to explore the idea of alternate suspects. 506 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 5: The three offenders who we believe are the ones who 507 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 5: actually did it. One of them could not be excluded 508 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 5: from the fingernails, and two of them were not excluded 509 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 5: from a stobe sample and a hall sample. 510 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: Those three individuals were Maurice Pearson, Ricky Buckley, and Andre Parks, 511 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: all known members of the gangster Disciples. 512 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 5: I mean, had the attorney at the time done any 513 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 5: investigating at all, he would have come up with what 514 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 5: we came up with. Twenty five years later, which was 515 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 5: that everybody in the community knew that Angela was holding 516 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 5: marijuana for Ruler Reese and dre who were Maurice Pearson, 517 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 5: Ricky Buckley and andrake Parks, and that there is evidence 518 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 5: to suggest that they are the true perpetrators. 519 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: When their investigator spoke to Angela Young's daughter, Shamika, the 520 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: team learned even more. 521 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 5: Jamika told our investigator that young people used to sell marijuana, 522 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 5: but Ruler Ricky ran the big operation out of the building. 523 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 5: She also said that a woman and a man outside 524 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 5: her building one day after the murder told her that 525 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 5: Reese had killed her mom. Ruler, Reese and Dre went 526 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 5: and watched some of the trial. It just seemed like 527 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 5: they were keeping their presence known to make sure that 528 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 5: nobody snitched. And that's the kind of community that they 529 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 5: lived in. When we got the file, there was a 530 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 5: report in there that said that someone called the police 531 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 5: to report that Maurice Pearson was responsible for Young's murder. 532 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 5: There's a report that shows he was picked up, there 533 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 5: was no questioning, and he was ultimately released. That report 534 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 5: was not in the public defenders fat and as the 535 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 5: appellate court even said in their decision. The Pearson report 536 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 5: gives the distinct impression that more information was not available 537 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 5: because the police did not want to find it. And 538 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 5: we've seen this in other cases. It wasn't uncommon for 539 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 5: there to be some sort of relationship with police officers, 540 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 5: like you scratch my back, eye, scratch yours. You know, 541 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 5: whoever had the connection to the police officers were like, 542 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 5: you're going to cover me on this, and we're going 543 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 5: to frame these other kids because I'm not going to 544 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 5: prison for this. And that's just how it shook out. 545 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, the Bonjin Group filed a post conviction 546 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: petition based on newly discovered evidence of innocence and ineffective 547 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: assistance of counsel. In March of twenty twenty two, Jennifer 548 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: Bonjing argued Selma's case before the Appellate Court. Justice is 549 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: Nathaniel House, Cynthia Cobbs, and Terrence Lanvin, who is. 550 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: The attorney who's going to make a presentation for the 551 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 2: appellant today. 552 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 4: Good morning, your honor, Jennifer Bonjing on behalf. 553 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 3: Of mister Butler. 554 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 5: Thanks, I mean, I just listened to the oral argument again. 555 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 5: The Appellate Corps, especially Justice Labin was appalled by this trial. 556 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 7: Yeah, and trying to compare with this is one of 557 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 7: the more unusual cases that I've ever dealt with in 558 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 7: my thirteen years in the appellate court. Here, but we 559 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 7: have two defendants co defendants who were tried in bench 560 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 7: trials in front of the same judge. The first guy 561 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 7: gets off, the second guy gets fifty years. 562 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: Jennifer Bonjing went on to explain that much of the 563 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: state's case against Selma hinged on the coorst grand jury 564 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: testimony of fourteen years old Earl Gilmore and. 565 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 7: At the trial of mister Butler, his public defender, who 566 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 7: by all accounts was a competent attorney, asked all of 567 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 7: four questions of the police officer who allegedly took this statement, 568 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 7: a statement that was never memorialized, wasn't signed off on, 569 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 7: wasn't written, wasn't recorded. 570 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 4: Nothing that's right, you're right, your honor, and there was 571 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 4: just no effort to challenge it. And again it is 572 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 4: mind boggling to me. I can only assume that what 573 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 4: happened here is that he assumed and not guilty. But 574 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 4: you can't make those types of assumptions. 575 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 7: Why the state, I don't know what the state was 576 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 7: assuming either, because both parties waived opening statement. I've never 577 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 7: seen a record like this wave opening statement. First witnesses, 578 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 7: no questions, no questions, no questions, then four questions. Then 579 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 7: you know, didn't even need a lunch break, and the 580 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 7: case is over. I mean, this entire case is justice delayed? 581 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 4: Yes, so I side threw my hands up. 582 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: The Illinois Pellet Court ordered the case to Cook County 583 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: Circuit Court for an evidentiary hearing. In January of twenty 584 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: twenty three, Selma was discharged from prison after receiving day 585 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: for day credit for good behavior. He had served twenty 586 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: five years of his fifty year sentence. 587 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, you come home during a pandemic, like, 588 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 6: what are we gonna do? So I had looked up 589 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 6: some things to do and we ended up doing a 590 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 6: boat ride. Just met him and a couple of my friends. 591 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 6: We finally able to really have some type of memory, 592 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 6: and it, oh my gosh, it was so much fun. 593 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 6: Even when he's on a boat ride, everybody's dancing. He 594 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 6: he just bombed his head, just chilling. 595 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: You know. Once I got off parole and I was 596 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 2: able to travel, I went to my me. Wow, I 597 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: rode the jet ski. I got on a parasale. Wow, 598 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 2: I got the helicopter. Was able to helicopter Beyonce house, 599 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: Bill Gates house. 600 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. 601 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 2: You know, was able to look at their backyards. 602 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: In they pools. 603 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: I was able to do, you know, some things that 604 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 2: I'm so you know, I know there's the guys were 605 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 2: things that get better with you know, I've been having 606 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: some fun. 607 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: You know, Selma is keeping busy with a cause that 608 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: is close to his heart. 609 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 2: I work with the outlet. There's a mentor program. I 610 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 2: get paid to mentor fatherless other age boys from the 611 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: age of eight to twenty two. You know. I work 612 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 2: with the parole officers, you know, going to the schools 613 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: to speak, teaching positive things about gods, stuff like that. 614 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 2: And then after I leave that job, I go to 615 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 2: another job with maintenance supply and I clean buildings and stuff, 616 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 2: you know, like janitorial work. So that's what I'm doing now. 617 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: And there's been another significant change in Selma's life since 618 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: he got out of prison. 619 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 2: A friend of mine told me about a Dayton site. 620 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: So I got on the Dayton site and we had 621 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: changed not much, and we started speaking and things of 622 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 2: that nature. 623 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 3: And what's her name? 624 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 2: That name is Jamila. She's intelligent, you know. Uh, she's 625 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 2: s thoughtful, she's beautiful. The nonprofit organization that I actually 626 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: work for, which is the outlet, she the intake coordinator there, 627 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: so she's responsible for all the boys that come into 628 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 2: the program just to see someone that gives back and 629 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 2: thoughtful and things of that nature. You know, you like 630 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 2: what I like, so I like you. 631 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: Selma and Jamala got married in twenty twenty two. But 632 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: even though he served his full sentence, Selma is still 633 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: not fully exonerated in the eyes of the law. 634 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 3: He's trying to make a life for himself. 635 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 5: He's trying to live and he can't because you know, 636 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 5: he has this looming over him. You know a lot 637 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 5: of people would be like, oh, you're out anyway, what's 638 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 5: the big deal, you know, but it's not about that 639 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 5: for him. He's innocent, and it is a complete travesty 640 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 5: of justice, even justice. Lavin said. The entire case is 641 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 5: justice delayed. 642 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 2: I have to just be hopeful and just lean on God, 643 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: you know, and just get out and do the best 644 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 2: I can. You know, give more to amenity than it 645 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: didn't gave. 646 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: To me, you know, and Soma says he's not the 647 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: only one who is mistreated by the justice system. He 648 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,439 Speaker 1: still thinks about Angela Young and her two daughters, Shamikha 649 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 1: and Nicole. 650 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: They didn't probably investigate her mother's death. I wasn't only wrong, 651 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 2: Miss Young was wrong because they didn't properly investigate her death. 652 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: They didn't care about a death. They didn't care about 653 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: my wrongful resident. You know what I mean. So at 654 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: some point black deaths don't matter, Black lives don't matter. 655 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 2: We don't matter. You know. Everybody that was a partitive 656 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 2: was mistreated. So God's will I do right? I do 657 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: right by life. 658 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freelink. 659 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the 660 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: links in our bio to see how you can help. 661 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler, 662 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wurtis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea, 663 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Bial and researcher Shelby Sorels. 664 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: The show is engineered by Jackie Pauley, with additional production 665 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: by Jeff Cliburn and Connor Hall. The music in this 666 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 667 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms 668 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can 669 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful 670 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling is the production of Lava for 671 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one