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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know the podcast the early nineties Black Helicopter Edition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is Ruby Ridge, the incident, the standoff, the siege,

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Speaker 1: what do you call this?

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Speaker 2: The beginning of the far right militia movement being born

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Speaker 2: in the United States? For sure? It was huge, huge. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was a huge example of government overreach. It was

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Speaker 2: this researching this was really hard, man, This is a

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Speaker 2: hard one for me. It was just it's just such

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Speaker 2: an awful story all around. It's just terrible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this is this occurred when I was I guess,

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Speaker 1: like a third year in college or so, and.

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Speaker 3: That you know, I was.

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Speaker 1: I've talked on the show before about like us not

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Speaker 1: having TV or cable and stuff, and so I wasn't

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Speaker 1: as newsy then as I am now.

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Speaker 3: But this was a big deal.

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Speaker 1: And I remember this and then Waco literally right after happening,

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Speaker 1: which we should do a Waco episode at some point too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately we should.

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Speaker 1: I just remember at the time being like, wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I really agree with these people that

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Speaker 1: are having this standoff, but at the same time it

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Speaker 1: looks from as an outsider, like the government is just

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Speaker 1: going in guns blazing and kind of murdering people.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out both are kind of true for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. I mean, you don't have to sympathize

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Speaker 2: with the Weavers or any of their supporters to still

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Speaker 2: be like this is just messed up. Like, yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: what I was saying. The whole situation's messed up. I

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Speaker 2: don't agree with basically any of their views, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just I say, we get into it, everybody to

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Speaker 2: make up their own minds, because it's definitely one of

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Speaker 2: those stories, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so just in the broadest two sentence overview, Ruby

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Speaker 1: Ridge was a standoff in the Ruby Ridge area of

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Speaker 1: Idaho in.

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Speaker 3: When did it finally go down? Ninety two? Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two.

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Speaker 1: That was many, many, many months long in the making,

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Speaker 1: in which the US government had a stand off with

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Speaker 1: a family of children, a couple of adults, and the

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Speaker 1: rest were basically kids. Oh yeah, and it ended in

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Speaker 1: lost lives on both sides when there's absolutely no reason

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Speaker 1: why it should have. And this is that story of

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Speaker 1: the Weaver family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you can start back at the very

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Speaker 2: beginning when the Weaver family itself began. Vicky who would

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Speaker 2: become Vicky Weaver. She was born Vicky Jordison and her

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Speaker 2: husband Randall Weaver, got married in nineteen seven. They lived

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Speaker 2: in Iowa, I think Cedar Falls right, Yeah, and she

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Speaker 2: was a secretary for Susan Roebuck. He had just been

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Speaker 2: discharged as a Green Beret honorably from the army and

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Speaker 2: had gotten a job working at the tractor factory for

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Speaker 2: John Deere. She can do a lot worse than that.

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Speaker 2: So they were like a very normal working class couple

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Speaker 2: just starting out in life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was, like you said, nineteen seventy one.

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Speaker 1: They had a daughter named Sarah in seventy six, and

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Speaker 1: then two more kids, a boy named Sammy and then

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Speaker 1: a daughter named Rachel, all over the next six years.

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Speaker 1: And those were you know, there was a kid that

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Speaker 1: would come later that we'll get to. But around the

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Speaker 1: latest seventies, kind of after the latest Arab Israeli conflict

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Speaker 1: came around, Vicky started basically kind of thought that was

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Speaker 1: a sign of the end times, the biblical biblical end times.

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Speaker 1: She kept having these recurring dreams of these omens about

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Speaker 1: a house on a hill where they could be safe

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Speaker 1: and hide, and she thought the end times were coming.

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Speaker 1: And she started sharing this stuff with Randy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and apparently it really jibed with him because he

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Speaker 2: got on board as well. I hadn't seen what exactly

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Speaker 2: was the impetus that triggered all that, so thanks for

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Speaker 2: clearing that up. But long story short, they ended up

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Speaker 2: becoming religious extremists together, and also like apocalyptic religious extremists,

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Speaker 2: not just garden variety religious extremists. Ye. Enough so that

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Speaker 2: they moved. And not only do they move, they gave

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Speaker 2: an interview to the local paper in Iowa saying that

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Speaker 2: they were moving and in fact, they wanted to go

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Speaker 2: find a place, build a place where they could have

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Speaker 2: a three hundred yard defensible kill zone. Yeah no, but

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Speaker 2: I mean your local paper is probably like, this is hot,

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Speaker 2: hot news.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, hot off the presses local couple moving

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Speaker 1: to up depensible shelter. Not here they moved in eighty three.

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Speaker 1: I saw fifteen acres. I saw twenty acres regardless, somewhere

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Speaker 1: in that neighborhood of land with a freshwater spring.

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Speaker 3: This time.

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Speaker 1: They were in Idaho near Naples, in the Ruby Ridge area,

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Speaker 1: and this area had become a just sort of a

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Speaker 1: place where if you didn't trust the government, if you

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Speaker 1: didn't like paying taxes, if you maybe were a member

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Speaker 1: of a Christian identity group or a white supremacist group,

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Speaker 1: you may end up in this sort of rural era

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Speaker 1: area of Idaho.

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Speaker 2: At the time, Yeah, for sure, this was like a

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Speaker 2: it's just I think it's still very much that way too. Actually,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what kicked it off, but I think

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Speaker 2: it started in the seventies in Earnest, so by the

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Speaker 2: time they moved there, it was it was in full swing.

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Speaker 2: That's just kind of where you went. And they actually

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Speaker 2: built their own home from what I saw, and pictures

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Speaker 2: of it are like, well, they did a really good job.

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Speaker 2: It's like a two story, nice looking cabin. To build

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Speaker 2: a bunch of outbuildings. They basically built themselves a compound,

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Speaker 2: and they did it largely using scraps in plywood and

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Speaker 2: stuff like that. And they started living the survivalist life,

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Speaker 2: like living off the land, planting vegetables. They homeschooled the kids,

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Speaker 2: of course, and the way I didn't know that in

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Speaker 2: Idaho or in the US.

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Speaker 1: In Idaho at the time, at least it was not

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Speaker 1: legal to homeschool. So not saying that that was part

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Speaker 1: of their illegalities, but I guess technically it was.

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Speaker 2: But I think it does kind of like get a

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Speaker 2: point across. It's a little subtle, like they couldn't have

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Speaker 2: cared less if the state or the federal government told

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Speaker 2: them that they couldn't homeschool their kids. That would just

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Speaker 2: be one more reason that they hated the government. And

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Speaker 2: in fact, one of the big movements in this area

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Speaker 2: was essentially like local sovereignty, where the highest authority in

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Speaker 2: the entire country for a specific area was the local sheriff.

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Speaker 2: Anything beyond that was fraudulent, right, So, yeah, they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have listened to the state government saying they couldn't homeschool

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Speaker 2: their kids at all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure didn't have power, no technically no like

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Speaker 1: official running water. I think they were able to get

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Speaker 1: water to the house via that spring, but you know,

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Speaker 1: they were living the rural lifestyle. They took in a

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Speaker 1: young teenage boy who had what sounds like a really

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Speaker 1: pretty awful home life. His name was Kevin Harris, and

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Speaker 1: he kind of came and went for a little while,

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Speaker 1: and then eventually basically was kind of adopted by the

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Speaker 1: family and he ended up staying there pretty much full

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Speaker 1: time at a certain point.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so he wasn't like they didn't adopt him because

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Speaker 2: he was like, oh, I thought, I'm pretty sure it's

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Speaker 2: the end times too, right. He was just like a

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Speaker 2: kid that they helped out, which is pretty great. So

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Speaker 2: he was, you know, he would come and go. He

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Speaker 2: was just kind of living his life and he could

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Speaker 2: he just knew he had a place to stay in

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Speaker 2: a place where he could eat when things got bad

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Speaker 2: at home with the which I think says a lot about.

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Speaker 3: Them, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: And while they did kind of chum up to some

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Speaker 1: of the Aryan nation groups around there, they were never

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Speaker 1: like official members. They would go to a meeting sometimes.

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Speaker 1: They were very much aligned with the Christian Identity movement,

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Speaker 1: which is I mean, we can't get into the weeds

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Speaker 1: too much here, but one of the main tenants is

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Speaker 1: that Jews are literally the spawn of Satan, that Eve

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Speaker 1: and the serpent bore you know, Jews as babies, and

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Speaker 1: that non white people are mud people from a different creation.

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Speaker 3: They are. I mean, how deep do you want to

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Speaker 3: go here.

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Speaker 2: Well, also that if you were of Celtic or Germanic

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Speaker 2: Germanic descent, you're the chosen people. You're the You're the

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Speaker 2: people who everyone else needs to cater to basically, And

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Speaker 2: that also they're the lost tribe of Israel, which legitimizes

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Speaker 2: them all the way back to pre Christian days.

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Speaker 3: Right, Okay, that's deep enough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So Randy Weaver came on the Federal alays radar

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Speaker 2: as far back as nineteen eighty five because the Secret

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Speaker 2: Service showed up one time at the compound and said, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what have your neighbors told us that you've been threatening

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Speaker 2: to shoot Ronald Reagan? And somebody tried that before, so

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Speaker 2: we take it pretty seriously. Are you going to shoot

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Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan? Yes? No, maybe?

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Speaker 3: Right? Which bubble did he fill out?

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Speaker 2: He said no. He adamantly said no. He said, this

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Speaker 2: neighbor that told you that is basically trying to pre

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Speaker 2: internet swap me because they want we have we're having

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Speaker 2: a property dispute and they're just trying to bring the

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Speaker 2: heat down on me. And I guess his explanation was persuasive,

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Speaker 2: because that's as far as it went. As far as

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Speaker 2: I could tell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's as far as it went. It could have

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Speaker 1: been a I mean, it could have been that innocent

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Speaker 1: because they you know, some of their neighbors they were

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Speaker 1: friendly with, some they didn't like very much. Some of

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Speaker 1: their neighbors. Can plane that kids were wearing Nazi armbands,

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Speaker 1: that Randy had fired shots at the houses before it was.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's pretty rough and tumble out there. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, Randy ran for sheriff, Like you're saying,

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Speaker 1: sort of the highest calling that you could have in

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Speaker 1: that crowd, and he was. It was basically a platform

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Speaker 1: of like, I'm anti government. In fact, I carry around

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Speaker 1: these get out of jail free cards and if you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're not a non violent criminal, then you're going

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Speaker 1: to get a second chance with me, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna be a government sheriff basically, right.

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Speaker 2: It's the posse comatadis movement, which is kind of basically

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Speaker 2: what I was talking about. That based on this Act

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Speaker 2: from eighteen seventy eight, federal troops have to stay out

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Speaker 2: of law enforcement. So yeah, those black helicopters and un

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Speaker 2: soldiers and all the stuff that everybody's worried about were

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Speaker 2: just totally illegal, and I guess by that token, the

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Speaker 2: FBI would be totally illegal, or the ATF for the

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Speaker 2: DEA like there just isn't supposed to be such a

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Speaker 2: thing as federal law enforcement. That right, platform, he ran

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Speaker 2: under the party.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a pretty good break time, What

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Speaker 1: do you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, we'll take a little early Blake early

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Speaker 3: Blake took an early break.

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Speaker 2: Blake set up like, Yes, I've been waiting for this

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Speaker 2: for sixteen years.

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Speaker 3: And we'll be back after this.

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Speaker 2: Earning stuff, Joshi.

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Speaker 3: Stuff, you shut all right.

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Speaker 1: So this is a time in the mid eighties, sort

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Speaker 1: of late eighties when militia groups were starting to sort

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Speaker 1: of be a thing, be in the news a little

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Speaker 1: bit more, and so of course the FBI is going

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Speaker 1: to start to begin undercover ops to infiltrate these groups.

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Speaker 3: And see what the heck is going on.

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Speaker 1: And that is exactly what happened at an Aryan Nation

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Speaker 1: meeting when Randy met an undercover agent. His name was

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Speaker 1: Kenneth Fatally and he was going by the name Gus.

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Speaker 1: Gus Magisono's great undercover name.

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Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, but not exactly Germanic or Celtic in origin.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was worked for the US Bureau of

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Speaker 1: Alcohol to back owned firearms the ATF and over the course,

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Speaker 1: like this whole operation was years and years long, because

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Speaker 1: it took like three years for him to get a

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Speaker 1: few different meetings with Randy.

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Speaker 3: In which which culminated and if you ask.

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Speaker 1: The FBI Randy saying, Hey, I want to sell you

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Speaker 1: some illegal sought off shotguns. If you ask Randy, he'll

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Speaker 1: say no, Man, I was entrapped. I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: sell the guns. The guy asked to buy guns several

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Speaker 1: times with me saying no, I don't want to do that,

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Speaker 1: until I eventually relented and sold him these firearms.

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Speaker 2: Right. So, however it happened the FEDS now had Randy

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Speaker 2: Weaver in their grips. So they thought, this is a

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Speaker 2: very routine thing that federal law enforcement does and I

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Speaker 2: think local as well. Like they will bust you on

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Speaker 2: some charge. It's fairly small, still enough that you could

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Speaker 2: get prison time. They're going to take you away from

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Speaker 2: your family. It's gonna be bad news for you, but

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Speaker 2: they'll totally forget about the whole thing if you start

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Speaker 2: informing for them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a small fish right.

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Speaker 2: Keep sure right, and then they use that fish's bait

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Speaker 2: to get bigger and bigger, bigger fish right. So he

249
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Speaker 2: was just going to have to do what he normally does.

250
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Speaker 2: But every once in a while he'd meets secretly with

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Speaker 2: some ATF handler and tell them everything he knew and

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Speaker 2: who was who and who was leading the stuff. And

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Speaker 2: Randy Weaver thought about it and he said, you know what,

254
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Speaker 2: you can go straight to hell. I'm not going to

255
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Speaker 2: be an informant, and you can press the charges if

256
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Speaker 2: you want to. The ATF did not like this at all.

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Speaker 2: From what I saw. They essentially took that almost personally. Yeah,

258
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Speaker 2: at the very least they came at him like they

259
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Speaker 2: took it personally.

260
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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Vicky was pretty upset as well. Apparently

261
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Speaker 1: she wrote a warning letter and this is in quotes

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Speaker 1: to Aryan Nations and all our brethren of the Anglo

263
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Speaker 1: Saxon race. She filed an affidavit which you knew trouble

264
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Speaker 1: was coming. She filed an affidavit with a county clerk

265
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Speaker 1: saying we might have to defend ourselves from you know,

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Speaker 1: with firearms, because the federal government is going to come

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Speaker 1: after us and we want to file this affidavit right now.

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Speaker 2: That wouldn't even cross my mind. That's forward thinking, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so that was actually very precient too, VICKI writing

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Speaker 2: that because they they would end up having to defend

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Speaker 2: themselves by attacks from the federal government. And that will

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Speaker 2: come a little bit later. First, in January of nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety one, the ATF, I guess they didn't arrest him

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Speaker 2: on the spot when they came and said that, you know,

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Speaker 2: they wanted him to be an informant. So a few

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Speaker 2: months later they decided to take Randy Weaver into custody.

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Speaker 2: But to do that, remember he had a three hundred

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Speaker 2: yard kill zone. He had a cabin up on a mountain.

280
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Speaker 2: You don't just walk up and tell somebody like that,

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Speaker 2: come on, you're coming with us to jail. So they

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Speaker 2: actually the ATF posed as and by the way, ATF

283
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Speaker 2: is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, another ostensibly

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Speaker 2: illegal agency. They posed this like their car had been

285
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Speaker 2: broken down, I guess on Ruby Creek Road, which is

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Speaker 2: the main road that led up to the cabin, and

287
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Speaker 2: they basically played on the Weaver's propensity to help strangers.

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Speaker 2: I guess.

289
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Speaker 3: Yeah. So they arrest him. He pleads not guilty.

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Speaker 1: He's released on bond, a ten thousand dollars bond on

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Speaker 1: his own recognisance, which is a little surprising. Vicky, his wife,

292
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Speaker 1: again writes a letter to the US Attorney for the

293
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Speaker 1: State of Idaho that she addressed as the servant of

294
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Speaker 1: the Queen of Babylon and saying that we refused a

295
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 1: bow to your evil commandments, whether we live or whether

296
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Speaker 1: we die. So she, you know, she sent a clear

297
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 1: message that like, we're not fooling around here. And I

298
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,320
Speaker 1: know we were on your radar, but you might as

299
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Speaker 1: well really put us on your radar because we're not

300
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 1: coming with you and you can't make us.

301
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,240
Speaker 2: Or take us off your radar. Don't even mess with us,

302
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 2: you know.

303
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, ideally, So Randy.

304
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Speaker 2: Had a trial set. He remember he's been out, he's

305
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 2: out on bail, but he still has to go to

306
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,640
Speaker 2: court to face these firearms charges. And again he sold

307
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 2: firearms to an undercover federal agents of it was a

308
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Speaker 2: federal law that he broke. So these are federal charges

309
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Speaker 2: and they can be pretty serious, but it was still, again,

310
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Speaker 2: like you said, it was pretty small potatoes as far

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Speaker 2: as firearms charges go. We're just charges that you could

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Speaker 2: face in general at the time. Right, Ye's enough that

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Speaker 2: you know. They had a trial set for him, and

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Speaker 2: it was set for February nineteenth, nineteen ninety one, and

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Speaker 2: for some reason or another, it was moved by one

316
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,280
Speaker 2: day to February twentieth, nineteen ninety one. Well, when the

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Speaker 2: government does that or the court system does that, they

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Speaker 2: have to alert you. So they sent Randy a letter saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: we've moved your trial date to March twentieth, And of

320
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Speaker 2: course it wasn't March twentieth, it was February twentieth, And

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Speaker 2: there was essentially a typo that the author of the letter,

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Speaker 2: a probation officer, had written. And so, of course Randy

323
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Speaker 2: Weaver didn't show up on February twentieth, and a bench

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Speaker 2: warrant was issued for his arrest for failure to appear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this has been sort of debated here and

326
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Speaker 1: there about the mistake and the error that he didn't

327
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Speaker 1: even have the right court date to begin with. But

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Speaker 1: all indications point to the idea that he was not

329
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Speaker 1: going to come anyway. So I'm not saying it like

330
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Speaker 1: didn't matter at all, But they said, hey, we're not coming.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he'd planned on coming even if he

332
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Speaker 1: had the right date. But the long and short of

333
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 1: it is he didn't go. And so they you know,

334
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 1: they were really on their radar. Now they're like, we've

335
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Speaker 1: got a real situation here. And this is when this long,

336
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Speaker 1: like really long surveillance program started in the summer of

337
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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, when they kind of staked out around

338
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Speaker 1: the property and around the house with you know, binoculars

339
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,720
Speaker 1: and things and surveillance cameras that they'd set up in

340
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Speaker 1: the woods, and they were just tracking what this family

341
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Speaker 1: was doing. They had a couple of plans.

342
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Speaker 3: To go in non violently.

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Speaker 1: One of them was to cut the water supply I

344
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 1: guess from the spring to the house to flush them

345
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Speaker 1: out because at a certain point they weren't even like

346
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Speaker 1: leaving the house. You know, they were having food brought

347
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Speaker 1: in and stuff because they knew what was going on.

348
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Speaker 1: Another plan they had was they were believers in the

349
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Speaker 1: minstrual cycle meeting. You were unclean and filthy, So when

350
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Speaker 1: you had your minstrual cycle in that family, you had

351
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Speaker 1: to go stay in the birthing shed on the property,

352
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Speaker 1: one of the outbuildings during the duration of your menstruation.

353
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Speaker 1: So they were like, all right, when Sarah, the oldest

354
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Speaker 1: teenager has her next mentro cycle, she's going to be

355
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Speaker 1: sent to the shed, and when the kids bringing food

356
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,159
Speaker 1: and stuff out there will grab them and that they'll

357
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 1: immediately give up because we have the kids. But then

358
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Speaker 1: I guess someone said, well, wait a minute, that's kidnapping.

359
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:22,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't do that.

360
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,639
Speaker 1: We don't have a warrant for any of the children,

361
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Speaker 1: So that's we can't go with that plan.

362
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Speaker 3: So they went with the worst plan.

363
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,679
Speaker 2: They did go with the worst plan, but they it

364
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,960
Speaker 2: was in very very It was a terrible plan in

365
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 2: really slow motion that played out over a really long time,

366
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Speaker 2: throughout which so many people had so many chances to

367
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 2: be like, guys, wait a minute, what are we doing.

368
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,200
Speaker 2: This is like a fairly small federal firearms charge. The

369
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 2: guys sold two salt off shotguns and then didn't appear

370
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 2: in court, Like, we're spending millions of dollars on this,

371
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 2: bringing huge resources to bear and it doesn't really make

372
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 2: sense until you find that the eight which was originally

373
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,640
Speaker 2: the people with this case, they brought in the federal marshals.

374
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: The marshals eventually brought in the FBI, and the ATF

375
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 2: told everybody else that number one, Randy Weaver was among

376
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 2: the biggest firearms suppliers in the United States.

377
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, not true at all, with.

378
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 2: No evidence whatsoever. The only thing that they had him

379
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,159
Speaker 2: on record doing was selling two saud off shotguns. And

380
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,120
Speaker 2: the other thing that they told the ATF told everybody

381
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 2: was that it was responsible for a string of bank

382
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 2: robberies in Montana. There's no evidence whatsoever that he ever

383
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,879
Speaker 2: robbed a banker, had anything to do with these bank robberies.

384
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,199
Speaker 2: And yet those two pieces of information transformed this from

385
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 2: there's some weirdo family up in the mountains with guns

386
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 2: who and the dad has a couple of he sold

387
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,199
Speaker 2: a couple of sawed off shotguns, and then come to

388
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 2: court to we need to literally bring the FBI, the

389
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,959
Speaker 2: Secret Service, the Marshals Service, everybody to camp out for

390
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 2: almost a year observing this house to figure out how

391
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 2: to get that guy out of there.

392
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was an extreme reaction. I don't think there

393
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 1: are a lot of people that would disagree with that. No,

394
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 1: so they're watching this house. The house, like we mentioned,

395
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: is very depensable. This is the house on the hill

396
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 1: where they were to be safe from the dreams. When

397
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,880
Speaker 1: they did go out, they would send usually they would

398
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 1: send the kids out ahead, supposedly with guns, to kind

399
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 1: of investigate and see what was going on. They had

400
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 1: neighbors recording license plates of people who came and went.

401
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: They didn't The Weavers didn't have a telephone, but they

402
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 1: tapped phones at the general store. Helicopters were taking aerial photographs,

403
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 1: they claim. The Feds claim that in March ninety two

404
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 1: they actually visited and said on the loud speaker and

405
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: via some sort of phone call, that hey, you got

406
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 1: a surrender, although Randy would contend that no, until it

407
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 1: all went down, no one said anything to me about surrendering.

408
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 2: Big deal, because that's the first step in a situation

409
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 2: like that, is telling the person just go ahead and surrender,

410
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 2: where we just want to take you to jail basically,

411
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: and that them not doing that is huge. That's a

412
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 2: big deal. Again, they were watching this place for basically

413
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 2: a year and had plenty of opportunity to do that.

414
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 2: Of somebody I did not see coming into the story

415
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: as Heraldo Rivera, and yet he has he was everywhere.

416
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 2: He has a minor role in it in nineteen ninety two,

417
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: he hired April of ninety two, he hired a helicopter

418
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: to fly over the cabin because by this time the

419
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: word was out that there was this family in Idaho

420
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 2: that was essentially in this long standoff with the Feds.

421
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 2: And he said, or the helicopter pilot's sad or somebody

422
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: said that they shot at the helicopter when it flew

423
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: over their compound. But apparently that was untrue. And I

424
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: think even the surveillance team that was watching the place

425
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: at the time said, didn't shoot at the helicopter. But

426
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: you know her, although he's like, it's gonna be we

427
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: won't get any ratings if they don't shoot at the helicopter,

428
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: so just say they shot at the helicopter.

429
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: So that was surprising. The most surprising thing to me

430
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: was an appearance by another human because somewhere in this

431
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, stand off, while they were being surveilled. I

432
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: guess Vicky and Randy got a little randy and had

433
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 1: another baby. It's in my opinion, it wouldn't lead me

434
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 1: to feel amorous and in the baby making way, but

435
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: I guess things happened. They had a daughter in late

436
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, Elishaba or Elishaba, I'm not sure they

437
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 1: pronounced it.

438
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 3: I'm going with Elisheba Elishiba. Okay. Right there in that

439
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 3: birthing shed is where they had Elisheba, and you know,

440
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: so that happened.

441
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: Just to know that there's a now a month's old

442
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: baby on the scene as well.

443
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: For some reason, that just made me really uncomfortable the

444
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 2: way you put.

445
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 3: That that happened.

446
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that happened. I think let's go with Elishiba.

447
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 2: I think you're right the first time. That makes way

448
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: more sense.

449
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 3: No, I think that's what you said.

450
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: No, I said Elishaba. Oh Elishaba, Oh, no, I said Elishiba.

451
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's one of.

452
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 3: Those Hey, how about this, we're both right.

453
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is that was nineteen ninety one.

454
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: Just so yeah, late ninety one is when she's born.

455
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: In the birthing shed on the property, right.

456
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 3: That's right, or the you know minstrel shame shed.

457
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: Right, Well, it depends on the situation, I would guess. Right,

458
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: So everything is about to go down, chuck, and it's

459
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: going to go down really hard and really publicly, and

460
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 2: the whole thing starts in earnest. The standoff that everybody

461
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: talks about when they mentioned Ruby Ridge is it started

462
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: on August twenty first, nineteen ninety two. It was a Friday,

463
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: and that morning a few I think they were Federal

464
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: marshals right, showed up on the scene and they were

465
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: going to just do some more standard surveillance and some

466
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: stayed at an observation post and some others drove up

467
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: toward the road on the way to the cabin. They

468
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: showed up at like four thirty. This is not new

469
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 2: or weird or different, but I am four thirty am.

470
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: You're right? Sorry, Yeah. A few hours later they were

471
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: getting closer and closer to the compound, and apparently they

472
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: attracted the attention of the dogs, the weavers dogs, and

473
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 2: the compound was in a state where if the dogs

474
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 2: are suddenly going nuts, you get your gun and go

475
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 2: see what the dogs are barking at. And that's exactly

476
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: what they did.

477
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, you know, I know I mentioned that these

478
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: were kids, but I just want to drive home the

479
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: point that you had Vicky and Randy, the parents that

480
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: were there. You had a ten year old girl, a

481
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: fourteen year old boy, a sixteen year old girl and

482
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: the Kevin Harris kid that was living who was in

483
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: his mid twenties by now, and then this.

484
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: Ten month old baby.

485
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: So teenagers and a baby, one guy in his twenties,

486
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: and then the two parents, Sammy the teenage boy, Randy

487
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: is the dad, and then Kevin is the mid twenties

488
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: guy that was living with him. They go out with

489
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: their dog, Striker, a yellow lab, looking to see what's

490
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: going on. They come to a y fork in the road.

491
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: As the story goes, Randy took it one way, Kevin

492
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: and Sammy and Striker went the other way.

493
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 3: And this is where another.

494
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 1: Record of dispute comes in, because the US government says

495
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: they were fired upon when they announced their presence as

496
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: federal agents. What Kevin says is no, no, no, they

497
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: didn't announce their presence as federal agents at all. All

498
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: we saw was guys in Camo and they're like eyeballs

499
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: peering through the bushes and my dog barking, and one

500
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 1: of the guys shot it and killed it.

501
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no dispute that the dog, Striker was shot

502
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 2: and killed. When it happened is a disputant who started

503
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: shooting first. So let's say According to Kevin's account, they

504
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: come up on these guys who didn't, like you said,

505
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 2: did not identify themselves as federal agents. They're wearing camo,

506
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: they're holding guns, and they shoot the dog. Sammy the

507
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: teenage son says, you shot my dog, you son of

508
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 2: a bitch, and like lifts his gun and I guess

509
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: starts shooting. So a shootout ensues. Sammy's shot, he turns

510
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: to run. According to Kevin's account, he turns to run,

511
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: is shot in the back and killed. Now, Kevin gets away,

512
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 2: Randy gets away, but a Deputy Marshal named Bill Deagan

513
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: is killed. Two So Striker the Dog, Deputy Marshall, Bill Degan,

514
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: and Sammy the son, the teenage son are all dead

515
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 2: from this sudden surprise gun battle that took place outside

516
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: of the compound.

517
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Kevin is the one to be clear who

518
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: shot and killed deputy the deputy Marshall.

519
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: Okay, that's that's one hundred percent verified.

520
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, because Randy was not a part of that shootout.

521
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: I got you, so, yeah, I know that he took

522
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: a different road, so he wasn't there when it happened.

523
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: I don't think so, I mean everything I saw was

524
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 1: that the shootout was between the teenage boy and the

525
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: twenty something year old and that you know, he shot

526
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: Deputy Building in the chest and killed him.

527
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: Gotcha. So either way, there's a firefight going on, a

528
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: shootout going on, and Randy and Kevin retreat back to

529
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: the compound, but they leave Sammy's body there temporarily and

530
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 2: they're just completely fixated, according to Kevin, throughout that time

531
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: on retrieving his body. This is a pretty tight family.

532
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: So you don't want to leave the dead body of

533
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: your fourteen year old son just laying in the road.

534
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: You want to go get him. And this actually runs

535
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: a foul of what the marshals were saying. Two of them,

536
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: They said that two of them were pinned down by

537
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: sniper fire for twelve hours, and Kevin and the rest

538
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: of the Weavers are like, that's not true at all.

539
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: We were scared out of our mind and totally grieving

540
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: already from Sammy's death. We weren't spending twelve hours pinning

541
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: down the marshals with sniper fire.

542
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, they said.

543
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: They claimed at least that the only gunfire that came

544
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: from them at that point was Randy firing his gun

545
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: into the air because he was so upset about losing

546
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: his teenage son. Right, all right, so now we're at Saturday,

547
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: August twenty second, a hostage rescue team is dispatched by

548
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: the FBI, and this is when things get really hinky,

549
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: because the rules of engagement in the United States in

550
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: a situation like this are well known and generally ascribed

551
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: to when things are on the up and up, which is,

552
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: you do not engage unless you're under direct threat from

553
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: a violence or like somebody firing at you. Basically, they

554
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: amended this rules of engagement and it was approved by

555
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: the Bureau's Assistant Director for Criminal Investigation Division, Larry Potts.

556
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: That basically said, any armed adult man that you see

557
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: you can shoot and kill as long as you're not

558
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: endangering a child.

559
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, unprovoked. Just see him walking through the compound, that

560
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 2: he's holding the gun at his side, you can kill him.

561
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: That is, yeah, completely outside of the boundaries of the norm.

562
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: Like you were saying, yes, so that's a huge escalation, chuck, right, that,

563
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: I mean, they were already, like like you said, overreacting.

564
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: You could say, now this is I mean, this is

565
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: just out of control escalating, And of course when you

566
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: have something like that, and you have a bunch of

567
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: snipers and you have a bunch of law enforcement people

568
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: sticking out a compound, the chances of somebody being killed

569
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: just have increased dramatically. And that's actually what happens. I

570
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: say we take a break and we come back and

571
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: talk about a huge turning point in the standoff. How

572
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: about that, let's do it stuff from Joshimes, stuff you

573
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: sho so chuck. By this time, this is Saturday, August

574
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: twenty second, blood's been shed from the shootout, and now

575
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: the hostage rescue team and their snipers from the FBI

576
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: have the authority to shoot to kill, unprovoked the people

577
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: in the compound as long as it's an adult male

578
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: holding a gun. And there was a guy one of

579
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: those snipers, an FBI sniper named Len Horiucci. He was

580
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: about two hundred yards away from the compound and he'd

581
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: been briefed on this revised altered rules of engagement that

582
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,959
Speaker 2: the FBI had authorized, and he saw Randy, Sarah, and

583
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: Kevin all leaving the cabin the main building and they

584
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: started to make their way toward the berthing shed. They

585
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: later said that they were heading to the berthing shed

586
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: to start preparing Sammy's body for burial. They'd retrieved it

587
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: by this time, and Horryucci, following these altered rules of engagement,

588
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: took a shot and he shot Kevin. No, he shot

589
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: Randy in the arm. So of course, from that point

590
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: on they immediately scattered because all of a sudden, somebody's

591
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: shooting at them.

592
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they are headed back to the cabin. They

593
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: get to the door. Vicky, the mom, is holding her

594
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: ten month old daughter in her arms and kind of

595
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: holding the door upen getting people in. And this is

596
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: when lan Horiuchi takes a second shot. He said he

597
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: was going for Harris, but it went squarely through the

598
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: head of VICKI threw her head and hitting Kevin then

599
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: in the chest, and she apparently was still holding her

600
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: in daughter when she hit the floor dead immediately.

601
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was, like I said, an enormous turning point.

602
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: Now the son has just been killed by the FEDS.

603
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: Now the mom has just been killed by the FEDS.

604
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: But at this time, the FBI doesn't realize that they've

605
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: killed her. I don't know if len Horiyucci like went

606
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: home and didn't tell anybody what had happened. I'm not sure.

607
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: I don't know how you could shoot someone in the

608
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: head and not realize that you've done that. But apparently

609
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: it was not immediately understood by the FBI running this

610
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: negotiation that Vicky Weaver was dead. And also by this time,

611
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: we should say there is a ton ton of cops.

612
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: A lot of estimates put it in the hundreds. Yeah, federal, county, state,

613
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: local law enforcement all showing up to basically help out

614
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: or contain or do whatever. And one of the things

615
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: they did almost immediately was block the roads. And those

616
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: roadblocks became a site of protests for people who showed

617
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: up and were like, this is messed up, man, these

618
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: these this family needs to be let free.

619
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

620
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: And these are you know, these are people from the

621
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: Aryan Nation groups and some other militia groups that it's

622
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 1: basically they're saying, hey, this is going down exactly how

623
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: we say this kind of stuff goes down.

624
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 3: So that that's going on. They've blocked off the roads.

625
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: Like you said, Mom's dead body now is under the

626
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: kitchen table where it remains. Kevin is in pretty bad

627
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: shape because he was shot in the chest, so he's

628
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: in and out of consciousness. They're not quite sure you know,

629
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: what's going to happen to him at this point. And

630
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: we should also mention that lan Hori Yucci is a

631
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 1: sniper that also had a lot of controversial was also

632
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: controversial in the Waco siege, like very soon after this. Yeah,

633
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: so this same guy was at both of these sieges

634
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: and both times was a part of a pretty controversial

635
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: shooting incident.

636
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 2: I okay, Well I didn't know that about Waco. I

637
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: had heard that he had not fired or shot at Waco,

638
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: but I guess that's not correct.

639
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: Well I didn't.

640
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: I looked into it a little bit, but then I

641
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: started going down the rabbit hole and thought we should

642
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: just cover Waco. But I think he was one of

643
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: the guys that was charged with firing like the incendiary

644
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: rounds into the building. But I might be wrong in.

645
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: That, but we'll save it for the Waco up.

646
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's put it this way, like you can't

647
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: find anything about Lawn Horuci now, like, yeah, we know

648
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: he's still alive, but I'm sure he's not available for

649
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: you know, interviews, if you know what I mean.

650
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah, So, like I said, they the FEDS

651
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 2: apparently didn't know that Sammy was dead, and they also

652
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: didn't know that Vicky Weaver was dead. They started destroying

653
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: buildings around the cabin. So now they're closing in this perimeter.

654
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: It's not just any longer like in this three hundred

655
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: yard Kills one. They're starting to move in and they're

656
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: destroying buildings as they go. And I guess when they

657
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: destroyed the birthing shed, they discovered Sammy's body and were like, oh,

658
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 2: one of the family members is dead, and he happened

659
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: to be a teenager. Again, they still didn't know that

660
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: Vicky was dead. And I guess because she had been

661
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 2: the ones writing the emphatic letters to the Servant of

662
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: the Queen of Babylon, et cetera, and filing the affidavits,

663
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: the hostage rescue team presumed that she was the one

664
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: who made the decisions in the family, so they continued

665
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: to address her even after she had been killed by

666
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: the FBI sniper. And so they would speak directly to

667
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: missus Weaver through their loud speakers, and the family was

668
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: just the They didn't realize that the FBI didn't realize

669
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: that they had killed VICKI, so they thought that they

670
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: were just adding like horrible torment onto the injury of

671
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 2: losing their mom and wife.

672
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, depending on who you too, there

673
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: are also people that say, no, they knew that she

674
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: was dead, and the things that they were saying were deliberate,

675
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: trying to provoke them and cause further upset by you know,

676
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: speaking to missus Weaver, who they knew well was dead.

677
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 3: But again, it's just.

678
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: It's one of those you know, you're never going to

679
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: get the truth out of a matter like this because

680
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: there are two sides. But they're trying to lure them out, saying, hey,

681
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 1: we had pancakes for breakfast. Once you bring the kids out,

682
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: I bet they'd love some pancakes. They send down a robot,

683
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: a remote control robot with a telephone, so they could

684
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, this is one of the hugest ways they

685
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: broke protocol is that in a situation like this, you've

686
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: got to be in contact and negotiate with someone in

687
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: a standoff, and they didn't do that until well into it,

688
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: when they tried to get them a phone on this

689
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: remote countrol robot that had a gun mounted to the

690
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: front of it, which wasn't a good idea because of

691
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: course they saw that.

692
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 3: They're like, I'm not going near that thing.

693
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: Right, Why would you even do that to defend the robot?

694
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 2: I mean, doesn't make any sense.

695
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: I tried to find out, but I couldn't find anything

696
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: that was rational, So I don't know.

697
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: That's crazy. So that didn't happen. They weren't able to

698
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: establish contact aside from shouting at them through loudspeakers, right,

699
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,479
Speaker 2: but it wasn't a back and forth or anything like that,

700
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: and the Weavers just dug in. They stayed in their

701
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: cabin for days. Remember the started on Friday, August twenty first.

702
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 2: The following Friday, August twenty eighth, this thing was still

703
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: going on. Mom was still dead under the table, and

704
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 2: they agreed to speak with a guy named bo Gritz.

705
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: He was also a Green Beret, a lieutenant colonel. So essentially,

706
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 2: what's happening now is Colonel Troutman for Rambo is showing

707
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: up to tell the authorities that Randy Weaver will eat

708
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 2: stuff that will make a billy goat puke like it's

709
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 2: it's uncanny how closely this resembled that part of Rambo, right,

710
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: and bo Gritz was able to get in and make

711
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: contact along with an ex cop from Phoenix named Jack mcclam.

712
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: Now both of them are We're huge, and I believe

713
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: still are in the conspiracy theorist circles that Randy Weaver

714
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: ran in. So it's not like they were just some

715
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 2: average people like they could. They could communicate with him

716
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: and talk his language, and he knew enough about them.

717
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: I don't know if he knew them personally or not,

718
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: but their reputation was enough that he let them come

719
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 2: inside to the to the cabin and talk.

720
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 3: Yeah.

721
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: So they brought some food for the baby and milk

722
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: for the baby, which is great, and UH kind of

723
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: talked to uh talked Randy into ultimately coming out, but

724
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: initially just kind of got him in a better state

725
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: of mind.

726
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 3: They are the ones when they came.

727
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: Back out that told the Feds, hey, Vicky's dead and

728
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: they're under the table. Randy's wounded. Kevin is wounded, like

729
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: big time wounded, and they were like, what that's news

730
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: to us. So on Sunday the thirtieth, Kevin finally surrendered.

731
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: Randy said it's okay, you need to go get medical help.

732
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 1: He was helicoptered out to spoke Anne and I believe

733
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: he's in serious condition, but he recovered. And then they

734
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: also allowed Gritz and a friend named Jackie Brown, strangely

735
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: enough to take his wife's body away and the pets.

736
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: They had a couple of pet parakeets that they took

737
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: away as well.

738
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: Right, so Kevin's out, it's now just Randy and his

739
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 2: three daughters, Sarah, Elisheba and Rachel. Yeah, and they were

740
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 2: alone in this cabin, still under siege. And so there

741
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: were a lot of supporters who are like, well, I mean,

742
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: we know how this is gonna and Randy's going to

743
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: come out with guns blazing and take out as many

744
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: of these Feds as he can before he gets taken down,

745
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: And very reasonably and wisely, Randy did not do that.

746
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 2: He made sure that he and his three daughters were

747
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: able to come down safely. Ostensibly under the care of

748
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: an attorney named Jerry Spence. He represented the estate of

749
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: Karen Silkwood, who also deserves an episode two. But essentially

750
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: she was a whistleblower who was mysteriously who mysteriously died

751
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 2: in a mysterious car crash. So he was pretty famous

752
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,959
Speaker 2: as far as defense attorneys, and he had said I'll

753
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: represent this guy, if he'll come out, I don't know

754
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: if he did. Did he.

755
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 3: I don't know?

756
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's presume that he did and didn't go

757
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,439
Speaker 2: back on his word. But regardless, they some people think

758
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: that that public announcement by Jerry Spence may have had

759
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: at least some role in getting Randy Weaver to come

760
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: out peaceably.

761
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he had to talk his daughters into it.

762
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: You know, they were ready to go. They were both

763
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: brandishing guns. So he said, you know, fourteen year old

764
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: Sarah put down your nine millimeter and ten year old

765
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 1: Rachel put down that thirty eight.

766
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 3: We're gonna get out of here alive. And they did that.

767
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: Randy and Kevin were ultimately charged with murder, conspiracy, assault,

768
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: and the girls went to live with their in laws.

769
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: I believe Vicky's parents in Iowa.

770
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: Right, And so of course they're, like you said, they're charged.

771
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: So their trial begins in April of nineteen ninety three.

772
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: And I don't know if ironic is the term, but

773
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 2: the trial started just before Waco ended. And if you

774
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: don't know how Waco ended, and you can't wait till

775
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: our episode on Waco ended really badly. A lot of

776
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: women and children died. It was just a bad jam.

777
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: So this is happening as this trial for the Ruby

778
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: Ridge standoff is starting, and the whole thing lasted for months,

779
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: I think finally on July ninth. Not only were there

780
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: months of testimony, the jury deliberated for twenty days. That

781
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: is a really long time to deliberate. And when they

782
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: came back, they acquitted Kevin Harris of all charges. And

783
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: you had said he definitely killed the deputy marshall, right,

784
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: so he was acquitted of that and everything else. And

785
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: Randy Weaver was acquitted on everything except for his failure

786
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: to appear in the original firearms case. That was it. Yeah,

787
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: So clearly this Idaho jury was like, yes, the Feds

788
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 2: very much overstepped their bounds and overreacted, and this is

789
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: like so much so that like we don't think these

790
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: people should be should go to jail for anything they

791
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 2: did in response.

792
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was sort of the facts of

793
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: the case too, Like everything I saw, it didn't seem

794
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: like it was just some uneven jury where they were

795
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: just sympathetic to the locals. Once the facts of the

796
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: case came out, it was pretty clear they changed rules

797
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: of engagement when they shouldn't have. They didn't follow protocol

798
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: setting up you know, communications, they and the guns blazing

799
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: and just basically murdered people. They in ninety four of

800
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: the family filed wrongful death lawsuits against the FBI and

801
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: the US marshals. They settled it. The JOD settled these suits.

802
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: They paid about a million bucks to each of the girls,

803
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 1: one hundred grand to Weaver.

804
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 3: Harris many years later, in.

805
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: Two thousand won another settlement for three hundred and eighty

806
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And Lan Horiyucci, the sniper who you know

807
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: where things really took a turn when he got involved.

808
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: He it kind of went back and forth in different

809
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: appeals in different cases over the years of pursuing criminal

810
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: charges against him. So involuntary manslaughter was the initial charge.

811
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: I think.

812
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: They moved it to a federal district court who dismissed

813
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: it saying that he was acting in his official capacity,

814
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: so you can't convict a guy for that. And there

815
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: were a bunch of appeals and ended up in him

816
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: escaping any justice by having the charges dropped.

817
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: So the Justice Department had their own inquiry and they

818
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: found out that this whole thing was pretty much a

819
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: cluster from beginning to end. The Senate held hearings in

820
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five featuring Fred Thompton, who would go on

821
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: to play the DA in Law and Order for a

822
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 2: couple of seasons back when he was a Senator for Tennessee.

823
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: And they also found that the whole thing was basically

824
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: a cluster from beginning to end. And one person who

825
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: did actually do time for this is actually an FBI agent.

826
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: The guy who was one of the people running the

827
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 2: operation e Michael Cahoe. He was sentenced to eighteen months

828
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 2: in federal prison because he destroyed an after action report

829
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: about the operation. He said he was acting in what

830
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: he thought was the Bureau's best interests, in that he

831
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: didn't want the local Idaho prosecutor getting a hold of

832
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: the thing and using it. I would guess against Lawn Horiucci,

833
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, but he was the only person to

834
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 2: actually do time from this thing.

835
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Randy just died a couple of years ago at

836
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: the age of seventy four. He kind of abandoned a

837
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: lot of the just sort of further out there religious

838
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 1: ideas that is was in his marriage, seemingly because of Vicky,

839
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: and he was still like a you know, sort of

840
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: cause to eleb in the anti government world. And Sarah,

841
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: the oldest daughter, has it is very easy to find

842
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: interviews with her. She wrote a book at it about it,

843
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: called From Ruby Ridge to Freedom, and in that book

844
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: she forgave those federal agents.

845
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I was reading an interview with her,

846
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: and she's a big commentator on that part of America

847
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: and its response to the federal government and how each

848
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: one needs to kind of interact with another. She's very

849
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 2: peaceful now.

850
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: It seems like, yeah, seems like it.

851
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 2: And like you said, Ruby Ridge was like a huge

852
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 2: impetus that was that gave like all of these far

853
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: right movements a shot in the arm. And this is

854
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. Within two years, all of that momentum

855
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: would just be completely scuttled when Timothy McVeigh came along

856
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 2: and said, Hey, I'm going to blow up a federal

857
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 2: building in Oklahoma City, kill one hundred and sixty eight people,

858
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 2: including nineteen children in the daycare, and it's in retaliation

859
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: for Ruby Ridge and Waco. And it was so abhorrent

860
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: that all of those people who are like, yeah, Ruby

861
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: Ridge were suddenly like WHOA. I don't want to have

862
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,439
Speaker 2: anything to do with militias anymore because this is what

863
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: people do. I don't want to have anything to do

864
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 2: with it. It wasn't until the early two thousands that it

865
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: started to come back again, where it is slowly developed

866
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: over time until we are where we are now, where

867
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 2: they're essentially public public office holders in some cases.

868
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a tough one.

869
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 1: So maybe let's see Waco in one year and then

870
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: we can do the Oklahoma City bombing in two years.

871
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 2: Have you ever been to Oklahoma City in that site?

872
00:47:58,920 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 3: I have not.

873
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 2: It's insane to stand there. It's just nuts. So yeah,

874
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: we should do one on that too, for sure.

875
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 3: But we got a space. He's out.

876
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: Oh I agree.

877
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 3: You're saying every December like a Christmas episode.

878
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 4: You go, good idea American tragedy by Boy episode and

879
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 4: then our holiday episode. Yeah okay, Well, Chuck apologized just

880
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 4: a second ago, so that means it's time for listener now.

881
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's a correction about Porcupines that I don't think

882
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: we got when that initially came out.

883
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 3: But it must have been released as a Saturday.

884
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: Edition, right, you're sweet, Bippy, It was okay.

885
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 3: Hi, guys. My name is.

886
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: Geta Oh and I'm an undergraduate at UC Irvine setting Biology.

887
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: I want to write about a correction in your porcupines up.

888
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 3: Chuck was discussing the.

889
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: Fact of how New World and Old World porcupines evolve

890
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: independently of each other. The phrase for that would actually

891
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: be convergent evolution, not co evolution. Oh, I think I misspoke,

892
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: and that actually we could probably clear that up in

893
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: our Peacocks episode coming up.

894
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 2: Oh good idea, Chuck.

895
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: Convergent evolution is what we need to remember. Co evolution

896
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: is a term where interactions between two species have a

897
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: reciprocal effect on each other's evolution, which is completely different.

898
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: Convergent evolution is when two separate population populations in distinct

899
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 1: geographic locations undergo similar phenotypic changes due.

900
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: To selective pressures.

901
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: I want to finish by thanking you both for always

902
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: peeking my interest.

903
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: It's peaking.

904
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 4: I Oh, you got me again.

905
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: That really I thought you were just messing with me

906
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 3: a couple of months.

907
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, And then later on it to only I

908
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: was like, I mispronounced peaking peaking, and Josh totally called

909
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: me on it, But I tricked him peaking my interest

910
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: in a variety of random topics I didn't I.

911
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 3: Needed until I did. Looking forward to learning more. And

912
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 3: that once again is from gta Oh.

913
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: Thanks Gita gita O is oh. Their last name.

914
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: It is ji dash Tao Oh. They put a handy

915
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: pronunciation next to it.

916
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying.

917
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 2: Well, thanks a lot, gta Oh. That was a great name,

918
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: great email, and best of luck to you with your

919
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: biology degree. We need more biologists running around out there,

920
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: so bless you for that. And if you want to

921
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: be blessed by Pope Josh or Pope Chuck, you can

922
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: send us an email as well. Send it off to

923
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 2: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know

924
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: is a production of iHeartRadio.

925
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 3: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

926
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.