Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane. Along
Speaker 1: with Jonathan Ferrell and Lisa Bramowitz. Daily we bring you
Speaker 1: insight from the best and economics, finance, investment, and international relations.
Speaker 1: Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple, podcast, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot Com,
Speaker 1: and of course, on the Bloomberg Terminal. Chrispa Rengui joins
Speaker 1: us right now, cost ce Io at Cobelly Funds that
Speaker 1: we do this with the broader sweep of Lisa and
Speaker 1: I getting to the evening and Wall Street week Chris, Regie,
Speaker 1: I want you to help us frame your investment thesis,
Speaker 1: the courage right now to invest for two thousand twenty four.
Speaker 1: How do you do that? How do you develop a
Speaker 1: two or even three year perspective? Well, thanks Tom, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what we're looking at. We're trying to look
Speaker 1: out three to five years. One of the good industries,
Speaker 1: one of the good companies in the industry trays how
Speaker 1: bad is bad? Can the companies that we're looking at
Speaker 1: make it through whatever comes in the next eight months?
Speaker 1: So when you look at it that way, we're pretty
Speaker 1: calm um, you know, we think as JP Diamond pointed
Speaker 1: out yesterday, economy is going to be much figger than
Speaker 1: it is today in five ten years. Uh. A lot
Speaker 1: of uncertainty, a lot of balls in the air now,
Speaker 1: we're not going to get them all right, but we
Speaker 1: try to pick We try to do the best to
Speaker 1: pick the best companies, at least in my research. Comment
Speaker 1: yesterday was some David George a Baird who really leaned
Speaker 1: in and said, would everybody calm down about the hurricane
Speaker 1: that's out there? This on JP Morgan. Of course, George
Speaker 1: just simply saying lose their acane. Well, and that seems
Speaker 1: to be actually what JP Morris Jamie Diamond was saying too.
Speaker 1: There might be a hurricane. We are expecting recession, but
Speaker 1: right now things look pretty good. But Chris, you know,
Speaker 1: you talk pretty constructively, and yet you talk about the
Speaker 1: six eyes late last year, inflation, interest rates, infrastructure, income taxes,
Speaker 1: and international relations and infection, and today you add inversion
Speaker 1: or implosion. That doesn't sound very optimistic. How do you
Speaker 1: dove tell the simism into the year longer term optimism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no question that we're gonna We've got some volatility
Speaker 1: um and we're watching all the same things everybody else is.
Speaker 1: You know, it's obviously Wall Streets on its key star
Speaker 1: Main Street seems to be doing a little bit better,
Speaker 1: although obviously some signs of stress and moost. We're gonna
Speaker 1: be watching carefully the same data that you mentioned earlier, um,
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't surprise me that we, you know, see
Speaker 1: a recession very soon. I think it's probably shallow, probably
Speaker 1: a little lengthier though than a lot of people hope.
Speaker 1: What about the infrastructure and the income taxes. I mean,
Speaker 1: we have a lot to do on the former, and
Speaker 1: we pay way too much in the ladder. That's not
Speaker 1: going to change, no, And you know, obviously news this
Speaker 1: morning that the most powerful Joe and Washington Joe mansion
Speaker 1: seems to have quashed any effort to get a build
Speaker 1: back better built done this term. Um. So yeah, that's
Speaker 1: kind of delayed. I think one of the I don't
Speaker 1: know if you call it pleasant surprises, but one of
Speaker 1: the things I was surprised about all the last couple
Speaker 1: of years it's been that we haven't movement on on taxas.
Speaker 1: That's something that we need to get in order probably
Speaker 1: you know, in the next term. Um. But obviously we've
Speaker 1: got some near term issues to deal with on rates, Chris,
Speaker 1: everyone's talking about seventy verses one hundred and what we're
Speaker 1: gonna see the following meeting. But I think if you
Speaker 1: step back and look at the bigger picture, it's more important,
Speaker 1: especially if you see the framework coming back down into
Speaker 1: Is that how you see it? Yeah? I think that's right. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I share Bill Ackman's perspective that we probably
Speaker 1: need to get after this as quickly and aggressively as possible. Um.
Speaker 1: Maybe that means a hundred at the next meeting, but
Speaker 1: you know, at some point that gives the FED the
Speaker 1: ability to cut and to stimulate. Again, Chris, we're doing
Speaker 1: Wall Street Week tonight. Can we go Mario Gabelly on you?
Speaker 1: Can you give in your single best idea after we
Speaker 1: go to the Elves? Absolutely, And it's the same one
Speaker 1: that I've had for the last several months, and that's
Speaker 1: Liberty Braves. I don't want to talk about my New
Speaker 1: York Yankees this morning. I want to talk a out
Speaker 1: of public company and ability to oh one of thirty
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball teams, one that happens to be doing
Speaker 1: pretty well. Um, but you know, controlled by the John
Speaker 1: Malone Liberty Media Empire and likely to be spun off
Speaker 1: and sold in the next eighteen months' trading, which applies
Speaker 1: a billion and a half value for the team. Steve's
Speaker 1: going for closer to three billion. Probably. There you go,
Speaker 1: Christmas Ange here on Wall Street week. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Chris Goobelly Funds. Of course, Claudia Sam has been listening
Speaker 1: on in the foreign moment of Jerome Powell, central Banker
Speaker 1: to the world. She's founder of Some Consulting, and most
Speaker 1: importantly Claudia Sam of the Some Rule. What an oddity
Speaker 1: of recession gloom into a fully employed America? Let's get
Speaker 1: this phrase. It was never in the Michigan textbooks. Can
Speaker 1: you have a recession in a fully employed economy? At
Speaker 1: this point, we can have anything. I mean, nothing would
Speaker 1: surprise me. It is absolutely unusual to have a recession
Speaker 1: and like to see activity, to see GDP contracting for
Speaker 1: two quarters straight, and at the same time have low
Speaker 1: unemployment and massive job games. So we might have what
Speaker 1: I've heard called a job full recession. This is not usual.
Speaker 1: You grew up in the crucible, academically, grew up in
Speaker 1: the crucible of inflation study. Michigan is the franchise for studying, folks,
Speaker 1: the slicing and dicing. Should our bankers be looking at
Speaker 1: top line inflation or the trimmed inflation, or the core
Speaker 1: inflation or the psalm inflation. Well so, monetary policymakers ought
Speaker 1: to be looking at every piece of inflation, both the
Speaker 1: top line stripping out of food and energy and also
Speaker 1: the components, like we really need to understand what's driving
Speaker 1: this to understand where it's going. Now. One thing that
Speaker 1: I have heard from Drome Powell that is disconcerting is
Speaker 1: the idea that topline, including these massive energy swings, will
Speaker 1: help guide their policy. That's problematic because we know food
Speaker 1: and energy whips all around, and frankly the FED those
Speaker 1: are supply problems. They can't do anything about that. So
Speaker 1: it's that is hard to hear, Um, but it is true.
Speaker 1: We've had big energy increases and what they are concerned
Speaker 1: about is the consumers look at that and they start
Speaker 1: expecting more inflation. They change their behavior and they cause
Speaker 1: more inflation, and that would be would be bad. Well
Speaker 1: and Claudia, this is the reason why the FED is
Speaker 1: between a rock and a hard place. They don't want
Speaker 1: to cause recession, but they also don't want to allow
Speaker 1: those inflation expectations to become entrenched. You have basically argued
Speaker 1: that the FED should do what it needs to do
Speaker 1: to take down inflation. Other supply side issues are not
Speaker 1: their issue, though, that it really is Congress and what
Speaker 1: happens in Washington. As a result, the FED shouldn't go
Speaker 1: too far at this point given the lack of action
Speaker 1: in Congress. What is too far? How far should the
Speaker 1: Fed eventually go just expecting that we're not going to
Speaker 1: get anything in terms of legislation and play Congress. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: we learned last night that Senator Joe Manchin is walking
Speaker 1: away from any kind of energy legislation, and that's that
Speaker 1: means the FED is on its own. The administration has
Speaker 1: floated nothing that will get gas prices down, So now
Speaker 1: it's up to the FED that inflation will be transitory
Speaker 1: one way or the other. The FED will guarantee that
Speaker 1: that's not what we're gonna want. They're gonna try. The
Speaker 1: FED will try their hardest to avoid a recession. But
Speaker 1: what they are doing right now, the full effect of
Speaker 1: it comes next year, and that's nobody knows what's coming
Speaker 1: next year. We gotta have some things in the world
Speaker 1: go our way, and that has not been the case
Speaker 1: for two and a half years. So it's not a
Speaker 1: pretty picture. And frankly, as Congress walks away, it's getting worse. Claudia,
Speaker 1: the timing seems really bad here because the Fed is
Speaker 1: going all out guns ablazing. We're talking about full percentage
Speaker 1: point increase right at the time when it looks like
Speaker 1: inflation really has peaked. I mean, if you look at
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg commodity indexes, on the eggs, on the metals,
Speaker 1: on the oils, they're all coming down markedly. Um, do
Speaker 1: you think we're gonna see inflation? Where do you think
Speaker 1: we're gonna see inflation at the end of the year?
Speaker 1: And is the Fed still going to be headed up
Speaker 1: towards four This was part of the reason that the
Speaker 1: cp I print this this week was so crushing, Like
Speaker 1: the Fed is not going to stop until they see
Speaker 1: inflation published inflation from the Bureau of Labor Statistics coming
Speaker 1: down in a meaningful way. Right, We've been head faked
Speaker 1: by supply chains getting better and then plutin shows up,
Speaker 1: and then they get worse again, or China shuts down
Speaker 1: and they get worse again. So the Fed needs to
Speaker 1: see it, and we haven't seen it. Right in, Claudia,
Speaker 1: end of the weekend, what's your soul? What to the
Speaker 1: five or six death siles of America flat on their
Speaker 1: black back with massive negative real wage growth? I mean,
Speaker 1: what how do we deal with that? I've never seen
Speaker 1: an integram like that, the area below the zero line. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: we gotta get inflation down right. The labor market is strong.
Speaker 1: People are, they're getting jobs, they're getting paychecks. We've seen
Speaker 1: wade raids is a little bit less recently. You gotta
Speaker 1: get inflation down. You've got to get the purchasing power
Speaker 1: right now. Households have a lot of them have some
Speaker 1: money on the side right from the relief packages and
Speaker 1: the labor market that's been strong. So that is helping
Speaker 1: with spending. But that could only go on so long.
Speaker 1: And income is the best predictor of spending. Spending is
Speaker 1: the biggest part of activity of gen P. That's okay, Claudia,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for the Friday breed, Claudia, So
Speaker 1: I'm getting us here. End of the weekend. Her claimed
Speaker 1: some rule as well. Right now, this is a great joy.
Speaker 1: Thomas showed as CEO of Kieth Briat and what's KBW.
Speaker 1: It's a stiple company, but far more he is our
Speaker 1: great voice on the state of American banking. Is not
Speaker 1: a security analyst. He's actually out there trying to do business.
Speaker 1: Thomas showed where is the American banking industry and for
Speaker 1: that matter, for Wells Fargo in thirty six months. So
Speaker 1: Wells Fargo I think is a unique situation unto itself
Speaker 1: because of the transition there, and and I've been listening
Speaker 1: to the results just as they've just been coming out,
Speaker 1: and I haven't had a chance to dig into them. However,
Speaker 1: I think this it depends who you are, Tom, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, what type of bank you are, and what
Speaker 1: your business mixes. Because the big money center banks, essentially
Speaker 1: parts of their business this are already in recession, and
Speaker 1: recession is the central point to everything in the banking
Speaker 1: industry because it's gonna drive what happens to revenues and
Speaker 1: then what happens to credit. So uh, the investment banks
Speaker 1: right now are showing declining revenues. Revenues were down eleven
Speaker 1: percent from Morgan Stanley. We think anyone, any bank with
Speaker 1: a big investment banking business is going to have a
Speaker 1: tough run on revenues. At the same time, don't forget
Speaker 1: what the core regional banks are doing. We've had two
Speaker 1: regional banks reports so far. First Republics revenues were up
Speaker 1: year over year, while Morgan Stanley's were down eleven Washington Federal,
Speaker 1: which reported yesterday, was up seventeen percent, while JP Morgan's
Speaker 1: revenues were flat. And and so I think it depends
Speaker 1: what your business mix is. And then we should also
Speaker 1: have a conversation about credit. Alright, So Tom, before we
Speaker 1: get there, what's the leading indicator here? The Wall Street
Speaker 1: or the Main Street? I personally think the Main Street
Speaker 1: because there's a there's a smaller number of investment banks
Speaker 1: for the industry, the big investment banks, the right downs
Speaker 1: that you mentioned earlier. Uh, that's that's a real issue,
Speaker 1: which is credit spreads have widened out and as credit spread,
Speaker 1: and I think that's been already part of the story
Speaker 1: of this core quarter, which is the marks on a
Speaker 1: lot of these assets. These are not the assets that
Speaker 1: regional banks own. These are these are the assets that
Speaker 1: the big banks owned. So I think their dilemma and
Speaker 1: their challenges are different. And it's also going to be
Speaker 1: quite stark because last year was such an incredible year,
Speaker 1: so the comparisons are are traumatic. Don't forget that JP
Speaker 1: Morgan had a difficult quarter and earned sixteen non equity.
Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley had a difficult quarter and earned fifteen non equity.
Speaker 1: So I think you have to remember the underlying basis
Speaker 1: of the company's is still pretty good. Tom. We're not
Speaker 1: looking at a meltdown in the financial sector. There is
Speaker 1: a question, though, is Larry McDonald said, at what point
Speaker 1: do market to overtake the economy? Do they take overtake
Speaker 1: the narrative in the broader world? How much are we
Speaker 1: looking at a difficulty of companies raising money? And I
Speaker 1: speak to you as someone who has a bird's eye
Speaker 1: view into investment banking activity through KBW. I think the
Speaker 1: world has changed, and I think every day that goes by,
Speaker 1: it's changing more. I think you're my own personal opinion
Speaker 1: about the inevitability of a recession continues to grow. And
Speaker 1: I and and and they're actually pockets of business that
Speaker 1: feel like they're already there. If you're in the equity
Speaker 1: the equity capital markets have essentially ceased. These businesses are
Speaker 1: down ceased, operations they're down sevent So if that already
Speaker 1: feels like a recession. If you're in the mortgage origination business, uh,
Speaker 1: that is going to feel like a recession. We're looking
Speaker 1: for originations to be down, so so I think that
Speaker 1: this is going to be somewhat of a rolling experience.
Speaker 1: The question is, really, is it a crisis. I think
Speaker 1: it's I think it's inevitable that we're going to have
Speaker 1: a technical recession. The question is is it a mild
Speaker 1: recession or a crisis. As of now, my instincts are
Speaker 1: not a crisis. But but I think it's inevitable that
Speaker 1: this economy is slowing. And and I'm watching forecasts, and
Speaker 1: I'm watching real GDP already send these signal I wonder
Speaker 1: how the housing market plays into that, tom especially because
Speaker 1: we're talking about Wells Fargo, but also because I've seen
Speaker 1: the terms mark to market used in UM bank earnings
Speaker 1: reports the last couple of days, Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan. Fortunately,
Speaker 1: consumers don't have to do that, but the consumer really
Speaker 1: stretched to get the most unaffordable houses um that they
Speaker 1: could over the last few quarters. And if we go
Speaker 1: into a recession, is that a problem for these banks
Speaker 1: I think the underwriting has been extraordinary at least sound.
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, when when non performers go up,
Speaker 1: which they will, the surprise shouldn't be that they've gone up.
Speaker 1: The surprise should be that they were zero for so long. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a remarkable how pristine this is the most pristine
Speaker 1: I've seen the ratios in my career. So it's inevitable
Speaker 1: that it's going to go up. But where's the real
Speaker 1: big risk? I'll say two quick points. The shadow banking
Speaker 1: industry exploded in size during zero interest rate policy, so
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be very, very keen to watch
Speaker 1: what happens in the shadow banking industry. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of credit, but it's it's four times the size the
Speaker 1: banking industry. We think, okay, that's number one. Number two
Speaker 1: is the majority of Dodd Frank was really good and
Speaker 1: and so these banks have more capital, more liquidity. They
Speaker 1: may have higher non performers, but I think they're gonna
Speaker 1: be able to turn through it. The average Thomas show.
Speaker 1: Jennie on Park Avenue just emailed it and said, can
Speaker 1: show talk about a real bank? So let's do that
Speaker 1: right now. Tomas showed the Keith Priot Honorable in honor
Speaker 1: of Dave Barry. Are the banks out there that are
Speaker 1: getting it done? And one of them is First National
Speaker 1: Bank of Long Island. What can James Diamond, what can
Speaker 1: Brian moynihan, what can Mr Sharf? What can they learn
Speaker 1: from the operation that you've awarded of the First National
Speaker 1: Bank of Long Island? Well, companies like uh that bank okay,
Speaker 1: keep it very very simple, um and um and and
Speaker 1: they and they tend to take a lot of collateral
Speaker 1: and they don't require a lot of market activity to
Speaker 1: generate revenue. They're very spread based. UM. Now they have
Speaker 1: challenges because technology is impacted your business. You need to
Speaker 1: afford it. But I think the key the key part
Speaker 1: about that is we just went through a very long
Speaker 1: period of time of zero interest rates. Spread lending was
Speaker 1: not built to really sell when interest rates for zero.
Speaker 1: We as long as we don't get into a crisis
Speaker 1: we had a higher rate environment, it's actually gonna be
Speaker 1: okay for a typical regional bank. I got thirty seconds.
Speaker 1: How do they survive digital banking? And how does every
Speaker 1: other bank out there? The heritage of KBW, how do
Speaker 1: they survive my mobile cell phone and my Chase account.
Speaker 1: They better get they better get on the trend because
Speaker 1: customer usages here COVID accelerated in five months during COVID
Speaker 1: read about four years of adoption. They better get on
Speaker 1: board or they will become dinosaurs. And we're seeing them
Speaker 1: working hard to do it. But there probably will be
Speaker 1: more consolidation for that reason. Thanks for the brief, been
Speaker 1: too long, Thomas showed of KBW there with Wells Farggle reporting.
Speaker 1: This is a joy always to speak with. Vincent Reinhardt.
Speaker 1: He and uh Carmen Reinhardt wife wrote the essay of
Speaker 1: the Pandemic on the Global Slowdown that now very much
Speaker 1: is clear and on a global basis, they absolutely nailed
Speaker 1: the pandemic slow down, some of it due to the
Speaker 1: political and social policies UH scene in Asia. He is
Speaker 1: chief economist at Dreyfus and Melon. Vince Reinhardt, the last
Speaker 1: time you were on your absolutely lights out on domestic analysis.
Speaker 1: This morning, I have to speak to you about Jerome Powell,
Speaker 1: is Central Banker to the world, and his good fortune
Speaker 1: to have Secretary Yelling assisting an e M crisis moments ago. Folks,
Speaker 1: the nation of Chile intervened in currency markets to provide
Speaker 1: for an appreciation of the Chilean UH pace. So what's shocking,
Speaker 1: Vince Reinhardt is even with the intervention by Chile to
Speaker 1: strengthen the Chilean pace, so it barely moved the needle UH,
Speaker 1: Vince moving to standard deviations. At best, it's an appreciate
Speaker 1: should across what they need to accomplish given the damage
Speaker 1: at this moment. How urgent is it for Secretary Yelling
Speaker 1: to speak to Christina Gorgeva of the I M F
Speaker 1: about e M falling apart? Look, when the federals are
Speaker 1: raises interest rates and we know the Federal Reserve is
Speaker 1: raising interest rates, that pulls capital into financial centers in
Speaker 1: a way from e M. E M had a tough
Speaker 1: pandemic that they could in parts move over by fiscal
Speaker 1: largess that deteriorates balance feats UH, and we're going to
Speaker 1: be seeing that in in in the year to come.
Speaker 1: So it's gonna be a tough tough time for EM.
Speaker 1: Any time the Fed is in a firming cycle, UH,
Speaker 1: it's tough for financial conditions generally, and this will be
Speaker 1: an extremely tight firming cycle if it's right out across
Speaker 1: all of your academic work. There's always the amateur comparing
Speaker 1: contrast with I'm gonna time call that a time of
Speaker 1: naivete in a time of leverage. Do we have comfort
Speaker 1: now that we're less naive? Do we have comfort now
Speaker 1: that we're less leveraged than August of Look, anytime financial
Speaker 1: prices move a lot, you learn something about somebody's balance sheet.
Speaker 1: You don't know who that is and what you learn,
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to say that, uh, it's all clear.
Speaker 1: What do we know? We do know big banks are
Speaker 1: much better capitalized and are more rigorously monitored, witnessed the
Speaker 1: stress test. We do know there's a lot more transparency
Speaker 1: and the documentation, lots more reliance on the big utilities
Speaker 1: of clearing and settlement. That's all good. We also know,
Speaker 1: among other things, that the triashury market is less liquid
Speaker 1: now than it was back then. That's part of the
Speaker 1: consequence of QUI, part of the consequence of of of
Speaker 1: big treasury issuance, and it's also part of the consequence
Speaker 1: of asking big banks to have a lot of capital.
Speaker 1: They don't really want to commit as much to trading
Speaker 1: as they used to, and they're showing that. I'd say
Speaker 1: it's a expect Yeah, I mean, what a great what
Speaker 1: a great position from which to go into a recession. Vince, Right,
Speaker 1: the big banks of shoring up their fortress balance sheets
Speaker 1: to consumer um has money in the bank, and there's
Speaker 1: unemployment rate at three point six percent? Do you think
Speaker 1: we're in a recession? So I sort of interesting technically
Speaker 1: might we be in a recession? I'll await the Atlanta
Speaker 1: offense GDP now for later in the day. Retail control
Speaker 1: was better than expected, but last month was revised down
Speaker 1: and poorly of arithmetic counts that more important. Uh don't
Speaker 1: know if we are. It's not much of one because
Speaker 1: we've had four hundred thousand jobs nearly printed each month
Speaker 1: for the last four months. I worry about the recession
Speaker 1: later in the year and next year that will be
Speaker 1: more significant. If we're in a recession right now, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's mostly an inventory in a trade cycle, pretty
Speaker 1: pretty damp. But it might just mean that the slopes
Speaker 1: going down to the more significant problems we have later
Speaker 1: in the year as the Fed titans more. Vince, just
Speaker 1: real quick here, Given the consumer data that we've seen,
Speaker 1: in the fact that they do continue to spend whether
Speaker 1: it's with credit cards or not. Their balance sheets look
Speaker 1: like they are in a pretty good position. How quickly
Speaker 1: could they turn over to achieve some of the negative
Speaker 1: scenarios that a lot of forecasters have out there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and added to your list is the retained saving from
Speaker 1: all the fiscals or jess of two thousands and two
Speaker 1: thousand twenty one one. That's that's still over a trillion
Speaker 1: trillion dollars. So that helps household unfortunately helps it's skew
Speaker 1: to hire income households who manage their balance sheets better.
Speaker 1: So I think there can be some issues going down
Speaker 1: the road. Remember also that, yeah, the unemployment rates three six,
Speaker 1: but real wages are declining, so actually real household income
Speaker 1: income is going down. That will be a problem. And
Speaker 1: then the last thing to note is, uh, some of
Speaker 1: the benefits household has had from government policies are more forbearance,
Speaker 1: not forgiveness. Uh, that's that's going away, and and that
Speaker 1: therefore will expose their balance sheets more. It's not going
Speaker 1: to be a household recession, I don't think. I think
Speaker 1: um households are better positioned in the US. Uh, not
Speaker 1: as obvious in other places of the world. But but
Speaker 1: the US is more of a more of more of
Speaker 1: that fortress balance sheet. Vincent, thank you so much. Dr
Speaker 1: Reynhard with Dreyfus and Melon this morning. Vincent Reynard, of course,
Speaker 1: is decades of work at the Federal Reserve for the nation.
Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Thanks for listening. Join
Speaker 1: us live weekdays from seven to ten am Eastern on
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio and on Bloomberg Television each day from six
Speaker 1: to nine am for insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,
Speaker 1: and international relations. And subscribe to the Surveillance podcast on
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot com, and of course on
Speaker 1: the terminal. I'm Tom Keene, and this is Bloomberg