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Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're

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Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight

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Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Hello, Welcome, everyone,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio, Software Radio, long time on target.

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Speaker 1: We have a great podcast lined up this afternoon. We

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Speaker 1: want to welcome our special guests with us, Jack Divine.

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Speaker 1: Jack is author. He's written a couple of really good

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Speaker 1: books with fact. We We had him on our podcast

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Speaker 1: about six seven years ago when he wrote the book

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Speaker 1: Good Hunting, an American Spy master Story. It was a

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Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller. But now Jack has written another

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Speaker 1: one called The Spymaster's Prison, The Fight Against Russian Aggression.

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Speaker 1: It's due out on much First. We were thankful to

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Speaker 1: get a h an advanced copy of It is a

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Speaker 1: very compelling read and we encourage all of our readers

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Speaker 1: and listeners out there to definitely check this book out. UM.

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Speaker 1: Just to give you a little background on Jack Uh,

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Speaker 1: as I said to him when we first started talking,

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Speaker 1: Mr Divine, but he said to call him Jack. So

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Speaker 1: Jack was a thirty two year veteran of the c

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Speaker 1: I A UH he served obviously, he was a Cold

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Speaker 1: War guy. He started back in the late sixties, he

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Speaker 1: went up through I think you know, he was in

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Speaker 1: charge of the CIA's Counting Narcotics Center. Um. He also

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Speaker 1: was in charge of the Afghan Task Force. When the

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Speaker 1: Russians were involved in Afghanistan, we were funding the Musja

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Speaker 1: Hadein And we're going to definitely talk about that because

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Speaker 1: we have some I guess the sixth degree of separation.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, Yeah, he's been there, he's been involved everything.

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Speaker 1: He worked his way up to to the acting Director

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Speaker 1: of Operations for the CIA. So Jack has started from

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Speaker 1: the ground level and worked his way all the way

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Speaker 1: up to that top floor. So we want to welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. Jack. Thanks for taking the time with

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Speaker 1: us this afternoon. We really appreciate it. Well, it's a

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Speaker 1: great privilege your audience. It's a great deal to me.

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Speaker 1: You have people defending this country and have defended it,

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Speaker 1: and for me to spend time with him as a

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Speaker 1: great privilege. Well. I love the way your book started

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Speaker 1: off because you had a quote from Afghan I guess

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Speaker 1: the considered the modern founder of the Afghan nation. And

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Speaker 1: then this quote is my last words to you, my

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Speaker 1: son and successor, never trust the Russians and you know,

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Speaker 1: for somebody who grew up in the Cold War like

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Speaker 1: myself and served them during that time frame, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: feel any different. I have a plaque in my office

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Speaker 1: that has that quote on and I wasn't familiar with it.

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Speaker 1: But Charlie Wilson, who I'm sure virtually everybody or audience knows,

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Speaker 1: Congressman Wilson and his role in in the Afghan program,

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Speaker 1: gave me that plaque and and it stuck with me.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think it was going to land. Other words,

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Speaker 1: when the Cold War came and I thought, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: I'll take it down. I'm glad I kept it up,

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Speaker 1: so I almost I'm most entitled the book that never

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Speaker 1: Trust the Russians. Uh. And maybe in retrospect, maybe I

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Speaker 1: should have put that in as a second line. I

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Speaker 1: know we toyed with it. Publisher. Yeah, I'll tell you what.

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Speaker 1: That was the best way to start it off. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think part of um, part of the

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Speaker 1: gist of the book is the Cold War really isn't over,

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Speaker 1: is it? Because you know, some of the maybe main

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Speaker 1: people have changed, but the goal is still the same,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. What's interesting about that, Steve is around the

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Speaker 1: first chapter in the book, I talked about Comrade J.

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Speaker 1: Comrad J was the deputy chief of what we used

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Speaker 1: to call the KGV and now it's called the SPR

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Speaker 1: New York City. And he was a walk and he

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Speaker 1: came to the agency and volunteered his services. And you

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Speaker 1: can imagine in that position he was extremely knowledgeable. You know,

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Speaker 1: for the KGB in New York is a very active,

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Speaker 1: high high high activity operation. So in there he said,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I joined the KGB, we had three

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Speaker 1: main targets, the United States, NATO in China. And when

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Speaker 1: I left in two thousand and four, he defected. Uh

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Speaker 1: you know, we took care of him. About the two

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Speaker 1: thousand and four he said, when I left, the three

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Speaker 1: objectives where the United States native in China. So uh,

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Speaker 1: you know that never stopped. Now, there was a period.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I happen to be in Russia and when

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Speaker 1: I go into this in June of ninety one, when

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Speaker 1: the government fell in August, I actually had an appointment

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Speaker 1: to see the deputy chief of the KGB. I was

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Speaker 1: their guests, believe it or not, even after my signetic

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Speaker 1: control of Afghan program, I was their guests because we

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Speaker 1: wanted to we wanted to warm up relations with the Russians,

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Speaker 1: and anything that you think about talking about was counter

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Speaker 1: a narcotic, so I was had to counter narcotics. So

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Speaker 1: I went out there and we made a made a

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Speaker 1: visit with the KGV. They were the host. Actually it's

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Speaker 1: very ironic, but at the last minute I was canceled

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Speaker 1: from seeing the end of the KGB and I sold.

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Speaker 1: The deputy was quite normal and we went on with

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Speaker 1: the trip part of the deal, because I had no

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Speaker 1: great interest in going the Moscow at that time. But

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Speaker 1: the fellow there was set of Russian operations, no Beard,

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Speaker 1: public figure. He was our chief out in Islam about

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Speaker 1: in those days. He said, if you come out, we'll

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Speaker 1: have him fly us down to look at the poppy fields.

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Speaker 1: But the poppy fields are right beside the Friendship Bridge.

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Speaker 1: And I have a deal with him. If you come,

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Speaker 1: you and I will stand on the bridge with the KGB,

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Speaker 1: the Friendship Bridge where the Russians left. So I said,

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Speaker 1: I'll end. That's how I went, and we had this great,

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Speaker 1: great picture. But what was interesting is uh in August

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Speaker 1: the government was overdrawn. The Communist government collapsed in August

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Speaker 1: of ninety one. I was there two months before. It

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Speaker 1: coincidental that I was there two months before, I quickly

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Speaker 1: point out, but what was interesting at that moment is

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Speaker 1: what was the future, what was it going to be?

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Speaker 1: And so many people, uh, well, well, the Cold War

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Speaker 1: is over, we won piece dividend. We don't need to

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Speaker 1: worry about the Russians, and we over the years cut

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Speaker 1: our budget back g DT from the place of rather

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Speaker 1: than intelligence budget from focused on Russia to ten percent.

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Speaker 1: So the point it was, there was a period of

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Speaker 1: time where, going right to your questions, Steve, where everyone

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Speaker 1: was convinced the Cold War was over, and there might

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Speaker 1: have been a few months, but uh it was shortly.

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Speaker 1: KHB was one of the last places to give up

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Speaker 1: its its stronghold on its files and so on, so

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Speaker 1: they did continue to run operations, and I hope we

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Speaker 1: talked about it later. The famous hole inside of the FBI.

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Speaker 1: Robert Hansen actually received the message right at the end

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Speaker 1: after they collapsed and said, look, don't don't worry, We're

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Speaker 1: going to take care of you. We're not stopping. So

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Speaker 1: the point is they recovered, and they recovered and they

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Speaker 1: get stronger. Putin came and he is a kg by

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Speaker 1: KGB got and let me stopped there, which we can

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Speaker 1: talk about him and other questions. But the struggle with

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Speaker 1: the Russians never never ended. And I think we'll quote

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Speaker 1: more about it, but I want to give it back

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Speaker 1: to you rather than being going on with the history

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Speaker 1: of the book. Yeah. Well, and and again in the book,

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Speaker 1: you basically, you know, you make the point that Russia

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Speaker 1: is still are probably biggest enemy, um, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the world stage. And you know, I thought that was

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Speaker 1: a little surprising because everyone today talks about the Chinese

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Speaker 1: and their economic power and the fact that you know,

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Speaker 1: the Chinese are trying to you know, build up that

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Speaker 1: what whatever they called the Belton Road initiative and that

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Speaker 1: their economy and they're kind of they're kind of dusting

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Speaker 1: off our game plan and how we brought down the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union against US. And um, I was a little

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Speaker 1: surprised by that. But you were saying that you believe

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Speaker 1: that the Russians are still our biggest threat in the world,

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Speaker 1: and can you talk about that a little bit. That's

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Speaker 1: a great question, and actually I'm surprised it's our second question. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, usually it doesn't someone doesn't raise until much

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Speaker 1: later in fact, when I was writing the book, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk where your audience about the struggles

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Speaker 1: are writing a book. This isn't what I do. Have

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Speaker 1: a full time job running into my own company with

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Speaker 1: a partner of my ar So this is something I

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Speaker 1: believe in the subject matter, and I like it's a

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Speaker 1: way of getting your voice out. In fact, is an

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Speaker 1: old saying. You know, old soldiers never died. They fade away,

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Speaker 1: you know, Magarthurs said that in Congress, and I would say,

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Speaker 1: old spies never fade away unless they have a pen.

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Speaker 1: They have a pen, they can keep on keep on writing.

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Speaker 1: So uh, you know, I wrote the book. In the process,

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Speaker 1: I eventually came to the Russian issue because of the involvement.

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Speaker 1: So I don't really dwell very long in the book

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Speaker 1: in China because you can you can get you can

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Speaker 1: get spun away into what's going on with China and

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Speaker 1: still terrorism and it becomes a hodgepodge. But I have

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Speaker 1: thought about it a great deal since then, and it's

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Speaker 1: part of my you know, thought process that any podcast,

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Speaker 1: if someone doesn't ask, I'm going to go to the

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Speaker 1: issue that you just did, Steve, and thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: Because China is our number one. You know what I

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Speaker 1: call existential threat. If you want to say that in

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Speaker 1: terms of economic military power, they're on the run, They're

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Speaker 1: building their strong your economy, they are they are clearly

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Speaker 1: the country that we need from a national security point

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Speaker 1: of view to keep an eye on. But when we

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Speaker 1: look at Russia it is as it's half of what

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Speaker 1: it was during the Cold World because they lost they

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Speaker 1: lost the Ukraine and list all the countries around them.

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Speaker 1: But when you look at their intelligence operations, and this

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Speaker 1: is why I would refine if I we're rewriting a

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Speaker 1: paragraph in the book, I would rEFInd it this way.

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Speaker 1: They're the real intelligence. Now. The Chinese came late to

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Speaker 1: human intelligence. You know, if you look back, there were

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Speaker 1: very real significance by cases involving the Chinese until fairly

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Speaker 1: recently the last twenty years, and there contained a bit

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Speaker 1: because of the nature of the economic relationship with the

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Speaker 1: United States. So they're certainly in the United States collecting information.

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Speaker 1: They do it in both they do it in cyber

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Speaker 1: But when you say yourself, who runs really hard edged

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Speaker 1: intelligence operations, and it says who have spies who have

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Speaker 1: years of work on getting penetrations inside the government, and

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Speaker 1: even when you start to look at how aggressive are

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Speaker 1: the Chinese and meddling in internal affairs in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and you would say the Russians have been far more

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Speaker 1: threatening if you look at what they did in the

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Speaker 1: seen election and if you look at the recent hack

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Speaker 1: where they hack to the State Deparment DHS Energy treasure,

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Speaker 1: and I think the world was only looking the tip

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Speaker 1: of the iceberg. So I would be find it if

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Speaker 1: I were putting another paragraph in the book, and that

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Speaker 1: would be you know, we need to man up, if

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Speaker 1: you will, for dealing with China as a mazing thread,

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Speaker 1: both of the nuclear weapons and it's a mutual destruction.

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Speaker 1: So that's sort of a counterweight in all the ways

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Speaker 1: one acts around the world. You know, China is going

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Speaker 1: to be the biggest handful. But if you at Russia,

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Speaker 1: uh and and you look at what they're the United States.

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Speaker 1: But if you look at Putin's game plan, it is

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Speaker 1: a cold word right on, it's a cold word game plan,

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Speaker 1: and their communism doesn't exist. He's not probligating it, but

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Speaker 1: he is probabigating the old Russia objectives. Warm Board reports,

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Speaker 1: we can the wee can your adversaries weaken the countries

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Speaker 1: around and to use very aggressive force. He's used it

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Speaker 1: in the Crimea in Ukraine, so he's very formidable and

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Speaker 1: his tactically. We could talk about the strategy in the minute.

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Speaker 1: So it's in that context. And I know I've gone

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Speaker 1: on a bit, but you know, there's almost a knee

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Speaker 1: jerk reaction to people said, well, it's got to be China.

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Speaker 1: And that's true in the macro picture, but you talk

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Speaker 1: about intelligence threats, security um and intelligence operations, the Russians

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Speaker 1: I still could put at number one. And you know,

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Speaker 1: talking about the Russians, and you you mentioned that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the excuse me, the interference in the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: sixteen election, and then you you just mentioned the hacking.

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Speaker 1: You know, you you talked at linked in the book

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Speaker 1: about the Moscow rules, how they were breaking the Moscow

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Speaker 1: rules and how they you know, everyone since uh, I

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Speaker 1: guess since the beginning of time. I guess they We've

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Speaker 1: always collected intelligence on each other, but we don't act

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Speaker 1: upon it. That's um what Basically the Moscow rules are correct,

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Speaker 1: but we'll see what I can. Oh, I'm sorry, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I meant to say, but they've taken that one step

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Speaker 1: further and they have acted upon that, and that's something

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Speaker 1: that we've never done against each other up until this time.

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Speaker 1: So that's a great observation, and I want to give

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Speaker 1: you a pad that fact. You know, I've been interviewed

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Speaker 1: by a lot of people over the years, and some acous.

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Speaker 1: They read a chapter or a snippet, and someone gives you,

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Speaker 1: clearly have read my book. So I'm quite flattered, and

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Speaker 1: I want to accompany because it's a key point. It's

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Speaker 1: a really important thing to understand, and and that is

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Speaker 1: in the Cold War, which you and I were involved in,

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know I was involved and so were you.

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Speaker 1: Beyond that, but in the Cold War, we had some

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Speaker 1: there were some unwritten rules. And the unwritten rules were

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Speaker 1: you didn't counterfeit each other the money. Why because you

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Speaker 1: would destroy the entire economic system. Right except for a

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Speaker 1: couple of a couple isolated incident, we did not rough

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Speaker 1: up each other's officers. Now there were some big incidents

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Speaker 1: you can imagine, but not many. So there were certain

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Speaker 1: ground rules. We were not going to be involved in

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Speaker 1: target assassinations and all those things against each other. So

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Speaker 1: there were ground rules, and one of them was, again

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Speaker 1: you're not going to find this written down and the

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Speaker 1: single contract. But if we were not going to interfere

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Speaker 1: directly in the political dynamics of internal countries, we weren't

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Speaker 1: going to start up a revolution in Russia and we

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Speaker 1: expected them not the little round in our elections. That

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Speaker 1: was an understanding of the Moscow rules. Now there was

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Speaker 1: another phrase, another more modern or I'm dating it from

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Speaker 1: say the beginning of the Cold War. Later on there

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Speaker 1: were other intelligence people that refer to Moscow rules and

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Speaker 1: how you behave in Moscow, whether you don't wear a

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Speaker 1: mets hat, if you're going out for the clandestine meeting

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Speaker 1: and so on, and they're legitimate things and how you operate,

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Speaker 1: and it's very tactical. But there is one that supersedes that,

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Speaker 1: and that is this understanding you don't meddle in each

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Speaker 1: other's internal affairs. So the big deal for me, I

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Speaker 1: actually had troubled comprehending it, saying it can't be. They

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Speaker 1: cannot just be hacking. I mean they're they're hacking, but

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Speaker 1: they're using it. They're going in con trol wing. There's

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Speaker 1: in the Facebook. I mean, there's as you know, in

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Speaker 1: the bog I mean thousands of thousands things of messages

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Speaker 1: that were in in their in their hands. And while

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Speaker 1: it may have marginally and I believe it's just to

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Speaker 1: be the case, I was surprised by the fact that

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Speaker 1: the Russians were meddling directly in our internal political affairs.

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Speaker 1: We are not doing it in their country and we

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Speaker 1: haven't been. So it's a major it's a seizemic change

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Speaker 1: in how you do business and um, there are no

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Speaker 1: in the present day, there are no Moscow rules, apparently

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Speaker 1: they've been aggregated, and the Russians are much more aggressive

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Speaker 1: and particularly involves the United States internal affairs, and this

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Speaker 1: needs to be be be corrected. So the problem in

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Speaker 1: cyber warfare, which so many of the people out there

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Speaker 1: are our experts, experts, everyone, as you said early on,

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Speaker 1: just electing everything they can from the smallest country's largest country.

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Speaker 1: There's so much technical capability everybody tries to collect UM.

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Speaker 1: But it's the use of the information and how you

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Speaker 1: use these cyber tools that are quite different. And there

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Speaker 1: is a bit of unstability right now in the cyber

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Speaker 1: world because there are no rules. There are rules, and

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Speaker 1: then if you're exchange, there's treaties, there's negotiations that work

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Speaker 1: out over many years. But cyber and the Russians are

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Speaker 1: now when you look at it, extremely aggressive in this

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Speaker 1: space and we have it's a major It was a

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Speaker 1: dilemma for the Trump administration at the end, and it's

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Speaker 1: a dilemma of the Widen administration. What are you going

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Speaker 1: to do about it? Yeah, And before we get into that,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to share I mean, as as again

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Speaker 1: going back to being a cold warrior, we used to

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Speaker 1: study our you know, our potential adversary. And when when

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Speaker 1: the story first came out of the Russians were you know,

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Speaker 1: meddling in the election basically for the benefit of President

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Speaker 1: Trump over Hillary Clinton, I discounted that. I was like,

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Speaker 1: and I'll be honest with you, I said that that's

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Speaker 1: can't be true because the Russians, from reading about them,

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Speaker 1: studying what I could, they value stable, predictable personality, and

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Speaker 1: as we all know, President Trump is none of those things.

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Speaker 1: He's kind of like that that you know that I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say oddball, but he's that wild card

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Speaker 1: that's in the mix. And I found it very interesting

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Speaker 1: that the Russians would favor him over Clinton, who they

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Speaker 1: knew obviously much more better than they did Trump. I

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Speaker 1: had the same reaction. But in the process of writing

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Speaker 1: the book, and as I dog through in some research,

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Speaker 1: I kept trying to figure this out because, as you said,

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Speaker 1: what what you really want on the other side is

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Speaker 1: someone that's very predictable. You want stability. They know that Trump. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they knew the Biden people, they know the Hillary people,

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Speaker 1: they knew the Bush people, they knew where they were getting.

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Speaker 1: You can you can work within parameters. They weren't sure,

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Speaker 1: so I would saying, well, it's really you know, it

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Speaker 1: just makes no sense that they lost their their marbles

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Speaker 1: in this. But the more I get into it, and

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Speaker 1: you know, and I know you're in your team are

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Speaker 1: aware of this. But you know they've developed a strategy

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Speaker 1: called hybrid warfare, right, and the warfare is you know,

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Speaker 1: well they might use uh, you know, it's very hard

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Speaker 1: now to put land armies against each other among major powers, right,

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Speaker 1: so there is a struggle, and the hybrid warfare strategy

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Speaker 1: suggested to use propaganda, economic, you use cyber and you

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Speaker 1: try and weaken the enemy. You just weak in the endemy. Right.

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Speaker 1: So I actually believe that it wasn't as sharply focused

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Speaker 1: as we think. It wasn't that they wanted Trump to

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Speaker 1: win so much as they thought that that was the

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Speaker 1: best way to weaken the environment. In other words, you

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Speaker 1: would have the political chaos, and they don't want to cope.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to an overcrow government, but they want

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Speaker 1: they want Their strategy is to weaken America's political fiber,

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Speaker 1: and I think to some degree that was successful. The

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Speaker 1: operation wasn't so successful in the sense of, Okay, how

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Speaker 1: many ballot boxes did they impact, I say, very little,

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Speaker 1: But their involvement then led to the lower investigation and

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Speaker 1: party in and the very partisan environment got worse. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, to some degree, I'm not sure they had

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Speaker 1: this great vision of where how far it was going

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Speaker 1: to go. But their motivations, um, their motivations are not

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Speaker 1: so person directed. And I know there's a whole school

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Speaker 1: book out that trumps us by and all nonsense, of

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Speaker 1: my view, but they're objective was a different one, and

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Speaker 1: they want to keep us off balanced and they want

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Speaker 1: to undermine us. And that's why they're in the cyber

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Speaker 1: space there spreading you know, uh, delicious rumors and disinformation,

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Speaker 1: and they've been in the disinformation pre pre pre Bolshevictor right.

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Speaker 1: The Russians have been into disinformation and they're very good

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Speaker 1: at I go into a couple of examples. One of

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Speaker 1: the things I do in the book that is go

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Speaker 1: back and forth of lessons learned from what they did

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Speaker 1: in the past. And I could reall for just one

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Speaker 1: case that I go into, there was a great case

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Speaker 1: by a Russian defector was involved and it came out

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Speaker 1: back back in the middle of the Cold War. Someday

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Speaker 1: there was a trope of documents, Nazi documents that were

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Speaker 1: found right DC diver Operation Neptune they bring up, but

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Speaker 1: it was all Russian disinformation and are are felt the

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Speaker 1: defective to it said, look, we fabricated all of this,

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Speaker 1: but it did great damage in the German government because

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Speaker 1: they tied many people the Nazi government they weren't and

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Speaker 1: so they've been around and it's a classic case of

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Speaker 1: sort of happiest stir up trouble trouble out there. So

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Speaker 1: I think I think we should move away when we're

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Speaker 1: looking at there's so that there's it's so much about Trump.

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Speaker 1: I think Trump did something, as you know, in terms

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Speaker 1: of the Ukraine, it was pretty aggressive and pushing back

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Speaker 1: in sanctions and so on. So I think there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a bigger it's a bigger part of their their strategy,

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Speaker 1: and it's not the defeat is over trous but they

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Speaker 1: keep this week and the weaker we are, the more

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Speaker 1: freedom they have and the less able we are to

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Speaker 1: check them anywhere. So it's it took me a long

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Speaker 1: time to come to what I believe is my sense

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Speaker 1: of where they are. Yeah, and you mentioned that in

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Speaker 1: the book, and it was fascinating about that Internet research agency.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's run by the same guy who runs

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Speaker 1: the Wagner Group, who all of our readers know all

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Speaker 1: about that because that's the pout and chef. And you

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Speaker 1: talked about eighty thousand Facebook you know personas, and you

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Speaker 1: know Twitter accounts and thousands of YouTube videos, all spreading

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Speaker 1: this disinformation or misinformation program, whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 1: And the Not My President movement was all of Russian fabrication,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I think it was very successful at

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Speaker 1: subverting as in and driving us further in part than

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Speaker 1: we already were, right, I think that that's that would

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Speaker 1: be a point that I underscore as well. It's not

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Speaker 1: so much about who won the election. It's just the

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Speaker 1: chaos that or political turmoil that that holder from it.

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Speaker 1: One other thing I would note on this is there

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Speaker 1: for a while people say, well, it must have been

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Speaker 1: an accident, like some general got off, throw up the

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Speaker 1: red servation and they weren't paying enough attention, and you

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Speaker 1: know that they regret. In fact, they even had some

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Speaker 1: some of the private sector and in the private sector

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Speaker 1: intelligence because there was some material coming now saying oh

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Speaker 1: this is something that was done by a junior that

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Speaker 1: was their own disinformation, done by a junior person. I

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Speaker 1: honestly believe that these things are cleared at the very top.

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Speaker 1: But this is a highly controlled part of a strategy

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Speaker 1: and if it was. If it was some generally would

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Speaker 1: have been shot and they wouldn't stop. It hasn't stopped,

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Speaker 1: so so I think when we think about it, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a thoughtful plan. It's not consistent with how we

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Speaker 1: view the world. And I actually think that there's a

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Speaker 1: great tactician and allows these strategists we could talk about.

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Speaker 1: But you know, this is not an accident. This is

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Speaker 1: not you know, some one off adventure that you're doing.

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Speaker 1: It's part of the overall strategy and it's much more

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Speaker 1: aggressive aggressive in the Chinese. The Chinese are building military

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Speaker 1: light and mental you know, something we need to deal with.

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Speaker 1: I don't anticipate the those and those with the Chinese.

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Speaker 1: But right now where are we where? Where is the

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Speaker 1: troublemaker in the political delibree? And it's it's the Russians

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Speaker 1: m hm. And you know with the Russians, um, you

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Speaker 1: know they've taken this aggressive stance and they've taken it.

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Speaker 1: The next step what do you foresee as being you

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Speaker 1: know what President Biden, who has now just been in

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Speaker 1: office about a little more than a month, what what's

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Speaker 1: his uh? What do you think his game plan has

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Speaker 1: to be too right? The ship so to speak, right,

430
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: So let me with your indulgence too quick points another

431
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: Another title of the foot book was going to be

432
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: doing Ban Joe's because because you know, the Russians would

433
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: do something and then we play back, then they would

434
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: do something. This is true in Afghanistan, by the way,

435
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: And when we get to it, it was doing Van

436
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: Joe until the singer came and then all the all

437
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: the strings marked on their bancho. But so there's this

438
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: back and forth. So today the question is is there

439
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: is there going to be doing back and doing Manjo's

440
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: will be the big question. But I wanted to take

441
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: just a second and talk about Putent because this is

442
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: this is a case it takes to the tango. Biden

443
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: Trump may want to do whatever they want to do,

444
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: but it takes another person to the degree to play along. Right,

445
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: So I think we need to know where what we

446
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: need to understand the other player. And so the other player,

447
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: the imputinent is. It is called the Spymaster President, and

448
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: the books a chapter and it and just like never trust,

449
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: the rudgets into subtitle. The subtitle under the spy Master

450
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: President is um, there is no such thing as a

451
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: former KGB officer quote Vladimir Prutent, and I understand it

452
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: as a former CI AI. It doesn't mean, you know,

453
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: I did turn in my card. I didn't. When people

454
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: think I run x CIA agents, that's not true. You know,

455
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: when I'll build my own, my own foreign capability. But

456
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I have a CIA mentality. You know.

457
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: It's like how do I look at the world. That's

458
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: why I called it five minutes Prison. I look at

459
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: it from sort of the environment I grew him, just

460
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: like you would look at it from a special forces.

461
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: How do you look at them? Right? So I would

462
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: say to you putin is self declaring the way I

463
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: look at the world as a KGB and what's trying

464
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: to KGB guy was well, he wanted to join a

465
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: seventeen that didn't accept. Somebody got in eventually. It was

466
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: a true believer in being a KGB person appealed to

467
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: his personality. But he wasn't sent to Paris, Mexico City, Tokyo,

468
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: where you have fine wines and you enjoy the benefits

469
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: of the West. He was sent a dress that East Germany.

470
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: You know it is a dressful place. You know they

471
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: had that fine lines in in in decades so but

472
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: in that timeframe the head of the East German service

473
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: was called Marcus Wolf, and Marcus Wolf was the Olderman

474
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: spy master in the Cold War. It must have had

475
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: I think her once a hundred thousand spots. He had

476
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: the Sparrows and Chess and Romeos. He was actually training

477
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: offices to the attractive. The Romeos were trying to recruit

478
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: secretaries in the West, and the Sparrows and opened to

479
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: even open to bert Cello Bordello to try and recruit

480
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: western Western diplomat. So it was a hard nosed Cold

481
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: War place, right, And so when the Soviet Union fell,

482
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: Putiness there by his own words and I understand it,

483
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: I can identify the said must have been totally devastated

484
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: what happened to him, his services mission, his country. And

485
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: he set out that that was never going to happen again.

486
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: Russia would be strong again. And he went off to St.

487
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: Petersburg and got the politics, and that um Gut tied

488
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 1: in with with Elson and the powerhouses in Russia took well,

489
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: he's one of the company guys. He's manageable. And that

490
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: was probably true until the day he became, you know,

491
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: the president. But before that he did served as the

492
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 1: head of the FSB, their version of the FBI, So

493
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: even after you left the KGV, he was running internal operations,

494
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: in internal operation in Russia or even let your ended.

495
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: So you have someone who has a Cold war mindset

496
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: just like you, just like many of you know they

497
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: he has a way of looking at the world. So

498
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: he looks at it like comrade j number one target us.

499
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: You know, they've they humiliated this and now you know

500
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: we're going to be strong again. So what did he do?

501
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: He set out the um to get back the Ukraine

502
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: and the Crimea. The Soviet Union is a much more

503
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: economically important base with Ukraine without it. Today the GDP

504
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: of Russia is probably a matching Spain Italy. So he

505
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: took very aggressive actions. These are Cold war actions, are

506
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: getting into Syria. So he he has allows the strategy

507
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: because I think Russia belongs to the West. I mean,

508
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: there's no communism. They should benefit from the economic well

509
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: being in the West and the liberals. But he has

510
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: decided and now he's gonna we are still the adversary

511
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: and he's going to do those things to make his

512
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: country strong and in an adversarial position. We need to

513
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: understand this before we go and say, hey, look, let's

514
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: go to Moscow and charmed the guy. Or when he

515
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: showed up in Helsinki for example, and uh, he showed

516
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: up in his talking points. He knew what he was

517
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: going to be doing in that and I think our

518
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: side was thinking, look, you know, the charm will put

519
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: a charm offensive on it. And so this comes back

520
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: to your question about the Biden administration. Now, a lot

521
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: of the folks that are in there work with the

522
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: Russians before they have views about it, um, And the

523
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: question I have is it's certainly not going to be

524
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: won over by charming, right, We're going to have to

525
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: show some strength and resolve in this. And the last time,

526
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: when when the Russians went into the crime in the

527
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: eastern Ukraine using covert acts and assets you know green

528
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: men as they said, green people. Um, our response was

529
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: pretty limp and and and also they used tremendous amount

530
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: of cyber In fact, they had just over the last

531
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: cup all days, another major cyber assault in Ukraine. UM.

532
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: So you know they're very, very aggressive and executing it.

533
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: So when they get to the table, um, you know

534
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: they're going to try and create a new a new

535
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: treaty on arms, and the Russians weren't honoring it the

536
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: last time. So I mean, I think, you know, part

537
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: of our national strands, we need to get our act

538
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: together at home when we have to be we have

539
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: to return to bipartisan issues on national security. We need

540
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: to get the economy marching, to make sure our militaries

541
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: well taken care of and modern in the way that

542
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: it needs to be. And I'm not I wouldn't worry

543
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: about our military facing the Russians, and god forbid they'd

544
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: ever get to that, because I do think they're the

545
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: best military in the world. So there's I think, just

546
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: jaw boning this thing. You're not going to change him

547
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: on his strategy. And there has to be some sub rosa,

548
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: you know, confidential discussions about what what are the limits

549
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: of the cyber where because we're not going to go

550
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: to lord ground, you know, how how far? What's what

551
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: are the rules of the game, and you know, this

552
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: has to cease and desist, and if it doesn't, then

553
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: I think there's a hard decision that the Biden administration

554
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: has to make, and that is do you start that,

555
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, do you start to band up with the

556
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: Dueli Banjos because you cannot let it go unresolved, and

557
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: you have to make it sufficiently. You try and calibrate

558
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: it so it's commensurate to the m to the action,

559
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: your response is commensurate with it, not excessive, and not

560
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 1: not weaker. Then so I think there's some tough decisions ahead.

561
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: But I think there are people intend to us under

562
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: ustimate Putin and the fact that he knows what he's doing,

563
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: he knows he has a strategy. We don't like it.

564
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: And the only way you backed somebody up is you

565
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: have to be strong. Our military to be strong, our

566
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: country has to be strong. We have to mean what

567
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: we say we and you know, pop out our chest

568
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: and then fire fire a Toma Hawk into the desert,

569
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, and say okay, now they'll pay attention. So

570
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 1: I think there's some tough years ahead with Russia and

571
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: very tough years on China. So we need to be united.

572
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: Our intelligence service have to be funded, and our military

573
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: needs to be funded and prepared. And two as a

574
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: deterrent to further aggression. So that's why I say in

575
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: the subtitle of the book, you know, the fight against

576
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: Russian aggression. So we're looking we have to recognize that's

577
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: what it is, and then we have to do what

578
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: needs to be done using all the pool boxes and

579
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: you save military response to the very end. And when

580
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: you're looking at Russia and it's I think your power,

581
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: you're we're not going to go toe to toe, but

582
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: they'll probably be green men in places where we will

583
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: have our version of green men as well. Absolutely, and uh,

584
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: you know, speaking of Putin and you know who, we

585
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: know the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. But it seems

586
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: like we're you know, every day it's it's seeming like

587
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: Russia is more and more on that, you know, on

588
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: that kind of footing. Who do you think because we've

589
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: I've heard rumors that his health isn't the greatest right now,

590
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: if if anything worth happened to him, it's you have

591
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: and just a personal opinion, who might step in because

592
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like he has any second in command

593
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,479
Speaker 1: around it. Well, first, let me take the first point.

594
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: I can't tell you a role of my years, how

595
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: many how many state leaders were about to die. They

596
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: can't tell me the hundred reports on cash throw dying

597
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: over years, right, we actually ran operations. Uh it's in

598
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: the public domain. But you know, one of the heads

599
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: of states we go to the bath in some place,

600
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: we'd have some technicians test the urine if they have

601
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: a pipe runoff, and to see whether they were going

602
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 1: to die, you know, and always you're not as sick

603
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: as you're thinking. Is so I put no stock in

604
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: that at all. I say, no, you know, this is

605
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: that wishful you know, wish will thinking. But the second

606
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: part you shouldn't wish for it because you don't know

607
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: what's behind it. And when you have an autocratic government,

608
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: they usually end badly and there's superior chaos and it

609
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: usually goes through the strong and the problem. Today it's

610
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: a little bit harder to calibrate because it's strong and

611
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: strong the weapon. They may have maybe a six by

612
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: three iPhone, right, and they're able to rally people out

613
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: of the street, and so you can, you know, really

614
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: really want the West, just like they should want to

615
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: stable person out of us. We went stability in Russia.

616
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: You know, whatever it is, we would love to have transition.

617
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: It's very interesting. I noticed in the book that the

618
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: president Bush Foreward gorber Troup said there's a coup coming.

619
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: There's a coup. Company said I can handle it. Well,

620
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: good luck. Well, so why did we do that? You know,

621
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: not because we love trouble, but we didn't want you know,

622
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: we had no idea what was coming. They got to

623
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: do good weapons. So you know, I think I think

624
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: the question of how he leaves, But I think what

625
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: is more important today is the cracks that we're seeing

626
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 1: from the scent because of the arrest of Yeah, I mean,

627
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: who wants to demonstrate, but who wants to demonstrate and

628
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 1: the winner in Russia. I mean, you gotta really upset,

629
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: you know. So my point is I think we're seeing

630
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: some cracks here and the problem in this modern age,

631
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: um they have the same thing in the spring. You know,

632
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: they might get twice as many people out. It's uh,

633
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, he needs to go to the mouth. I mean, look,

634
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: he's been a very successfully master let's see, you've got

635
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: to tip your hat. I mean it was in its thirties,

636
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: I think, but he started his ride. He's ahead and

637
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: made he consolidated power, very impressive capability. Still relatively young

638
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: in terms of national leaders today. Not mentioning our leaders

639
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: any of them might name. But so I think he

640
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: has to himself, you know, is this hybrid strategy and

641
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: being aggressive that the US is that? The right answer

642
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: is that the future here is that going to you

643
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: know this Tip O'Neal, the famous congressman Massachusetts who controlled

644
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: the Congress in a masterful way once at all politics

645
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 1: are local. So the determining fact in Russia is what's

646
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: happening inside Russia. And we should not mess around. I

647
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: mean I would to be clear, I'm not suggested we

648
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: mess around because you have no idea where it's going

649
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: to end up. However, as I said, if he doesn't

650
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: stop them, we've got to revisit the issue. But I

651
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: would hope that he would look at his own situation

652
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: and say, listen, I can have my cake and eat

653
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: it too. I could still be the top guy, but

654
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 1: I can have a role in the West and familiar

655
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: eight things at home. I'm not easy to manage. But

656
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 1: if he stays with a heart, it's a very tricky thing.

657
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: You know, he keeps volume and prisoner prisoner if he

658
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: has to be carefully, doesn't make him a martyr, right, so,

659
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: but if he's two weaks, so he's was probably trying

660
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: to figure it out. But this is a challenge to

661
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: him and I would personally prefer I mean, at some point,

662
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: you know, he's got to move on that. You know

663
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: that is done and true. You know, your little free

664
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: elections take place, and I don't think there's any experts

665
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, I was listening. I won't tell you the

666
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: group where you know will be calling me and yelling.

667
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: You know, people that study Russian and their view they

668
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: have no idea of you know what comes next? Who does?

669
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: And that's why preparedness, you know, the military, and everybody

670
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: on this call understands preparing the battlefield, right, you know,

671
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: we need to be prepared. We need to be prepared

672
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: for all contingency in oral and we need to be alert.

673
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: And there's stability and inherent in in autocratic governments. There's

674
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: stability inhering in Russia, their stability in here and around,

675
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: the stability inherent in China. Just depict the Big Three

676
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: and they can come unraveled in ways that there are surprising. Historically.

677
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: I don't think any of them are on the roast

678
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: by any stretch the amount of imagination, but they all

679
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: have internal problems that under the wrong set of circumstances,

680
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: you know, things can get out of hand. And and

681
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: I would say the one thing that's different today about

682
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: you know, the cover action world and and the stability

683
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: is things can unravel quickly because of social media and

684
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: the cyber capabilities and communications capability it does and help

685
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: you rebuild a thing. That's one thing I could say.

686
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: The social media can destroy a lot of things. It

687
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 1: doesn't build. It doesn't do building. So I think good intelligence,

688
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: we have to really understand the dynamics of what's going

689
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: on in these countries and not the wishful thinking of

690
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: visitor business sector or the visual thinking of someone that

691
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: wants to do good. I mean, I think you have

692
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: to take a hard most look at the world and

693
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: and be prepared for promotable contingencies. And everybody, everybody understands that.

694
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: You know, the military has a plan for a plan,

695
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: for a plan, so and that's necessary. At times it

696
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like it's um productive. But until the crisis

697
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: comes in, we're in, You're planning. It's closest to the reality.

698
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: What we're talking with Jack Devine, former acting director of

699
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: Operations for the CIA, who have written his book, which

700
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: is titled spine Master's Prison to Fight Against Russian Aggression

701
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: comes out on March first. And Um, you touched on

702
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: this briefly in the book, but I have to ask

703
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: you when it comes to Charlie Wilson, and we mentioned

704
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: him earlier when we were talking. Did you actually meet

705
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: Charlie Wilson a lot or was it just a few times?

706
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: And what was your impression of the book and the

707
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: film when it came out. Now, I got to know

708
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: Charlie very well, traveled with and we went out there, Um, Pakistan,

709
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: a couple of times up in the shower with the

710
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: along the border. Some say that Charlie actually took a

711
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 1: horse in Afghanistan. Others would say we staged it. So

712
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: he looked at about that. So he was he was

713
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: underestimated by many people. He had a you know, a

714
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: notorious lifestyle which he propagated. He created the met or

715
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: of Charley which maybe became the reality. But he was

716
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 1: at Annapolis Graduate. He was a serious guy, smart um

717
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: um down there, a guy you know, he didn't have

718
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: a dime, and he was in Texas a young man,

719
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: and you made a role for himself. And when he

720
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: had left the Congress and I had left the agency,

721
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: came to New York and we had dinner at Sparks Restaurant.

722
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: If you know Sparks Restaurant, that's where the mafia Don

723
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: Castliano was assassinated. Right, Charlie had a sense of romance. Right,

724
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: he can't go at you know Smith and Wilinski in

725
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: Appo State. Now you gotta go to Sparks. So we

726
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: go to Sparks. We're with our wives and he need

727
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: to cross the table as a jack. I know, I

728
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: know you didn't like the book. God, you're gonna hate

729
00:44:54,600 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: the movie. So and what what he was really talking about?

730
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't Charlie Wilson's work. He was a bigger in

731
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: life figure on Glad. I know him and I think

732
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: he was a contributor to the effort. He was a

733
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: good face out in meeting with the foreign leaders, and

734
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: it was always pushing him down in the hill. He

735
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: was he was able to steer money, but it wasn't

736
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: his program. And the reason this annoys me, um, it's

737
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 1: because I think people in America needs to understand overt action.

738
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: That's why I read the first book Good Hunting, and

739
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: that is how is how mactovit? How does covert action run?

740
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: And one of the greatness which people to understand. The

741
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: President nice United States signs the approval other it's he says,

742
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: you can't use force on right, and this is these

743
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: are the guidelines. And now you have to go brief

744
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: Congress right, and Congress has to get it in fun

745
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: deal right, and then you have the job you gotta get.

746
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: You got to get allies, You're got to get people

747
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: who want to fight. And I have a whole set

748
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: of principles around it. So it's a government program and

749
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: so while I traveled and to Charlie often I would

750
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: tell you substantively on decision making in a party. I

751
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: don't think we had five discussions, and I can only

752
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: remember one or two of them, and one was why

753
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: did do Jack ship buying the weapons from the majority

754
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: of the weapons from Egypt the China? Okay, now remember

755
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: this is going back when China was allied with US

756
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: here um, and it's a very simple reason. Charlie, They're

757
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: providing the quicker, faster keeper, right, he said, I got it, okay.

758
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: So the point was Charlie had no saying that. Now

759
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: we would go in Charlie's office, he had a stinger

760
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: missile hanging over his store and it came from the

761
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: CIA CIA office and told it would be nice give

762
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: Charlie a stinger. But what it did is it identifies

763
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: him with the stinger missile. And that's not how the

764
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: stinger went in. Charlie actually opposed it. He thought he

765
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: was doing a good thing because I think someone whispered

766
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: was here, tell the tell the Pakistani's when the officials

767
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 1: come out that you don't need a one stingers in

768
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 1: the program. And that's what happened for a while because

769
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: there were people in Washington they were afraid that the

770
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: Singer went in it would be world wars. Right. So

771
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: when I arrived at the Afghan Past Force, I did

772
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: have a good feeling for this uh sense of concern

773
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: and I was looking at it as um, what what

774
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: what changes us for? And we were nine million pounds

775
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 1: of ordinance was going across the border and it was

776
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: daily and it's locked it daily or monthly. Forgotten the line.

777
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: We couldn't cross the line because the Russians were using

778
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 1: the the spenter there's bets nuts and and they're behind

779
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: helicopters and was suppressing it. And we had like going

780
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: banages again. We would put in one weapon system. You know,

781
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: we started out with like World War two weapons, rifles,

782
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: and then by the end you had very sophisticated weapons.

783
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: And the Stinger was an amplication because there was no U.

784
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: S weapons in the battlefield other than the Stingers. It

785
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: was a big policy decision and I went down to

786
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: the White House one day and the agency had voted

787
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: against it, and voted against it. They showed him mock

788
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: shootdown of the Stinger, and Uh, I said, damn it,

789
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: we need that RNY room didn't say, your office has

790
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: been voting this down. They said, oh Jack, great idea

791
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: the mouth and it ends up, you know, the president signing.

792
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: The next I get a call as I go over

793
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: and talk three star general. I know his name, but

794
00:48:55,360 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 1: I won't mention a good guy. General. Look, I need

795
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: next number of your things. Said, look, the boys don't

796
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: have it. I said, I understand that we're out there

797
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: now and I've been told to come. And he said, well,

798
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: I'd like to give you, but you know, go pound

799
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: saying or whatever. He called the White House and said

800
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: you go back to Mars. I went back to mar dutifully.

801
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: You know, I just empathized with his position because he

802
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: really didn't want to do it, and I understood his reasoning.

803
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like you bite your lip and

804
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: the blood starts to come out of the corners. Okay,

805
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: you could have them all right, but don't come back.

806
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: I never saw him again. So they went in. And

807
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 1: what I'm saying to you is how the weapons were organized,

808
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: Who got what, when they got it? Where? What was

809
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: the strategy? Uh, this wasn't Charlie's game, and the Charlie's

810
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: was he worked the hill very well and he was

811
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: a good ambassador and you know, a good moral. But

812
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: if I were, if you come to me and said,

813
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: this is Jack, why don't you and I put a

814
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: movie together. We're gonna have all these bureaucrats, you and

815
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: all the other bureaucrats, and we'll get some mule skinners

816
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: in this and what's a little of this, and letn't

817
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: make a movie. Say that's that's boring. No one's going

818
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 1: to watch that. Let's get a congressman with Julie Roberts

819
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: and they saw the whole world to go out single

820
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: handed with some crazy c I a guy and all

821
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: works out in the whole thing fall as well. They

822
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 1: became a great book, a great movie, and uh, you know,

823
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: but it just as in reality. So when you get

824
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: around and say, listen, I have a problem, let's go

825
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: find something congressman and some socialite and see we can't

826
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: go out there and change things, to change the world

827
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: with covert action. And this was the most successful co

828
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: operation I think the history of the agency up to

829
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 1: that point, you know, requires a lot of people doing

830
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, multiple allies, logistics, it was

831
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: a war of logistics that's not run by a single Congressman.

832
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: It's you know, offices and people and I think Steeview

833
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: even had a hand my favorite mule. That's it. I mean,

834
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: you know when you mentioned mule skinners, uh. At the time,

835
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: I mean there was no as we all know, logistics

836
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: drive to train and you know we talked about that earlier.

837
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: And you know, the Mujadine at that time, they didn't

838
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 1: have logistics. So you know, the agency was gonna furnish

839
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: them with mules from China, which is like, you know, unbelievably,

840
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: and so the agency got special forces on board and

841
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: they said, you know, we need you guys to come

842
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: up with some mules, packs for the mules, the panniers

843
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: and this is the kind of stuff that they're going

844
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: to be carrying. We need you know, Russian eighty two

845
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: millimeter mortars, we need Stinger missiles, and we need AMMO

846
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: crates and all this and um so my team, you know,

847
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: we were involved with that. I don't think I'm breaking

848
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: any security regulations this many years after the fact, but

849
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: it was it was very interesting because you know when

850
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: we first started it, uh, we were working on it

851
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: down in the mountains in Honduras with Honduran soldiers. And

852
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: the first day that you know, we were going to

853
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: leave the compound, we had everything all strapped up and

854
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: we thought we had it down. And by the end

855
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: of the day everything was falling out. The mules were

856
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: falling down, the packs were falling up. I think we

857
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: got about five hundred yards you could still see the

858
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: gate of the compound. And then you know, each day

859
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: would have to go and you know, change things a

860
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: little bit, and we ended up working it all out

861
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: and later after the fact, as you and I were

862
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: talking when all this came out later on and you know,

863
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 1: with the agency's efforts with the Mujiadin, we saw the mules,

864
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: pictures of them with the Mujadin guys, and we saw

865
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: those saddles and we were like, hey, we made those.

866
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: But you know, Stave, it was such important. I mean,

867
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: you know, we're talking down in the weeds, but that's

868
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: how logistics sisted down the weeds. So if you look

869
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: at the program, and again I keep the juxtaposition of

870
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: Charlie beside you, this is in Charlie's So first of all,

871
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: you have to buy a billion dollars worth of weapons.

872
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: Where do you buy them? You can't buy you can't

873
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: get American weapons. You have to buy them. That's a

874
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: logistical problem. How do you get them out there? That

875
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: means boats, trains. I mean, at one point I probably

876
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: owed more Priora trucks than anybody in the in Asia

877
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: because we had trucks. But you got to a certain

878
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 1: point and the trucks couldn't go over the mountains, right,

879
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: and you needed the mules or you're going to stay

880
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: at the bottom. So unbeknownst to you maybe at the time,

881
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: but we were buying nine thousand mules and marching them

882
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: across China because Pakistani mules did not work. And the

883
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: other thing is, uh, you know what I don't I'm

884
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: a city guy. I don't know. You know, I just

885
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: said before a horse revealed. But I'll tell you Tennessee,

886
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: mules do not work in Afghanistan, right, So you had

887
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: to know this stuff. You needed experts and so ended

888
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: up Chinese mules. Mules work, and then you needed saddles.

889
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: You needed tailors saddles to carry the type of weapons.

890
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 1: And it was a big, big, big breakthrough. So the

891
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: point that I would make is there were lots of

892
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: people and you touched it, and there was you know,

893
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: a guy that mule skinners and all these experts that

894
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: were in their medical trainers. You know, the stingers weren't

895
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: they were trained, they weren't trained by an agency guy.

896
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: You have a couple of people who came out of

897
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: Fort Bragg, you know, that had just been trained on it,

898
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: went out there and everybody did their part. So when

899
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: the when the Russians left and they marched across the

900
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: Friendship Bridge, cable enough from the ages saying we want

901
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 1: and I thought that was the right pronoun. We lots

902
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: of people, lots of people over many years contributed. So

903
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: this is why, truly, Doc, you're gonna hate. It's not

904
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: because of Charlie. It's not about Charlie. It's about how

905
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: are things done and running these types of efforts. And

906
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: again I'm not a logistic guy. I know a hell

907
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: of a lot more about it now. I knew enough

908
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: to get some really good logistic guys around me that

909
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: we're outstanding. And I just read a book going generally Grant,

910
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: you know, and he had the spotty career, will be nice.

911
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: But when he got into the Civil War and I

912
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: started to look at it instead of the glory of

913
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: and I don't want to defend anyone with a fan

914
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 1: of proberty lee. But grand was a quartermaster out in

915
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: some Western word or something during the Indian Wars, and

916
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: he was a logistics guy. At the end that war

917
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: was a civil war. One are the great tragedies of

918
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: our country, the confrontation It was logistics. So I am

919
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: now a believer. It just thinks if you're going to

920
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: go in any sort of combat of any proportions, or

921
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: you're going to go into a covert action operation, or

922
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 1: you're going to run a political operation, you need to

923
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: get your blocking tacting done. You need to get your plumbing,

924
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: you need your master's shortage others. It isn't You can't

925
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: think in these broad movie tones of how things that

926
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: it's hard work. You know. If you're looking for glory,

927
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: don't look for the logistics job, you know. And I

928
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: I went out of my way at the end when

929
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 1: I was leaving to make special note to them, just

930
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: to their unsung heroes, and and so a lot of

931
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: people get the glory, but the real bankbone logistics. So

932
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: if you've got folks out there that log time, if

933
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 1: you will in logs, then you know, I tip my

934
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 1: hat and it wasn't Charlie Wilson's or I would say

935
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it probably was the

936
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: logs team that this happened. And we let me just

937
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: make a comment of about Congress and the President United States,

938
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: both of them Republican Democrats. They couldn't do enough down

939
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: on the hill. Now you're not doors like kinterparts that

940
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: went down to about Center America. They didn't have it

941
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: and it ended up with the way it did. But

942
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: on this particular project, when it works, you know, you

943
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: have to have Congress, you have to have it, you

944
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: have to have the budget, and can't be leaking and

945
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: all the things, terrible things that happen to The presidented

946
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: States have to put his signature down on the line

947
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: and then then people and professionals could do what they

948
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: could do. And the professionals and military agents didn't get

949
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: it done. So they're the basic ingredients. So it's not

950
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: about Charlie at all. And I don't know, I have

951
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: nothing but good things to say about Charlie. But when

952
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: people understand how wars are and covert wars are run, Yeah,

953
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: and it's just Hollywood. They have put a face on

954
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: it so they can sell it. And you know what

955
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: better wouldn't sell it, You wouldn't save you wouldn't sell

956
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: it with my face. Let me look at Normine. Normine

957
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: so uh Tom Hanks, the Tom Tom Hanks, I'm not

958
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: bell negotiate maybe yeah, but now And I wanted to

959
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: ask you. I know that you served in the Agency

960
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: for for you know, thirty years and a lot of

961
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: the you know, I've done a lot of research on

962
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: the early days of the Agency because so many of

963
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: them came from OSS and which was the forerunner of

964
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: both the Agency and the Army Special Forces. Bill Kobe,

965
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: Bill Casey, Allan Dallas, Richard Holmes, and my favorite, uh

966
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 1: person from OSS who will later joined c i A.

967
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: Was Virginia Hall. Did did you get to meet any

968
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: of these, you know, the people that started the agency

969
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: back in the day. I did. In fact, most of

970
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: the people when I first joined had roots in it.

971
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: I mean it was you know, these are the big names.

972
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: These were the public figures, right, but you know, the

973
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: Chief of China, the Chief of Latin America, they all

974
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: love time in World War Two and then OSS particular

975
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: Um and Bill Casey, I mean, you know, the director

976
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: there was OSS Europe, but Virginia Hall. I didn't know

977
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: from Adam except when I was in. I guess I

978
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: was on the Dominican Republic desk, which was not the

979
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: center of the world, although in six and I joined afterwards.

980
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: But I was standing in the hallway and beside me

981
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: sort of straightened up right, and the woman walked by

982
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: nothing and nothing know where it is. Well you seem

983
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: to really come alive when she walked back. So well,

984
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: that's that's Virginia Hall. You know Virginia Hall, and now

985
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: today she is better known, but back then, so Virginia

986
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: Hall for the listeners. Actually, if you go into C

987
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: I A. And this is very might be a human

988
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 1: interest story, you go in and beautifully done. In my view,

989
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 1: it's one of the best architectural buildings in government. I

990
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: obviously have a bias, but I'll leave out all the dynamics.

991
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 1: I do go into the book at the beginning because

992
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: there's some meaning to the the entrance way in the

993
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: stars and quotes. But on the wall as you're going

994
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: down the right hand side, their paintings that have been

995
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: professionally done and commissioned, so and commissions of painting, and

996
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: the first one they're moving around a little bit was

997
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: Virginia Hall. Further down the number three or four along

998
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: the wall is the second when the replica of the

999
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: Stinger shootdown taken by video at the time and then

1000
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: transposed into um into a formal painting. So Virginia Hall

1001
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 1: the picture has her in It looks like a tent

1002
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: cranking out messages. But Virginia Hall was spoke French fluently.

1003
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 1: And she was in Turkey as a young woman and

1004
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: had a hunting accident and badly damaged, lost the bottom

1005
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: part of her life, and she had artificial live in

1006
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: those day. And she tried to Gussie tries to join

1007
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: during World War two and the bridge took her in

1008
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: and then she got in the NSS and she dropped

1009
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: they had they dropped her behind the lines in France,

1010
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: and she became the most one it spied by the

1011
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: Nazis because she was one of the principal organizers of

1012
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: the resistance and the communicator in France. And it was

1013
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: and she was received the top medal for the French,

1014
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: the British and Americans for her her deeds. People she

1015
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: worked with, many of them were executed. She got out

1016
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: just in time. She went out over the mountains with

1017
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: the like. She had a nickname for it. There was

1018
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: Cruthers Cuthbert. That was that was it. So they sent

1019
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: a mess saying do you have are you having trouble

1020
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: getting out? There's so the only problem is with what

1021
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: was the name again, Cuthbert? She named her leg Well,

1022
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: no problems with this and so they sent a no

1023
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: terminate shoot them h when things That was always a

1024
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: CIA didn't do that. But there a lot of people,

1025
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: but I was. I was recruited in the Latin American division.

1026
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: Alias was Tom Bender, that's not his real name, but

1027
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 1: he also worked behind the lines in in trance organized resistance.

1028
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 1: So it wasn't just these top level of people. I

1029
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 1: would say that the entire building was um uh permeated

1030
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: with and it's not just people, but people bring cultures

1031
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: with them and it was within that I associated most

1032
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: with the agency through my career was a spirit of

1033
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: can do what an element delivered tomorrow to blessed it

1034
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: or Shanghai, I got it, you can do. And there

1035
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: wasn't a spree and sensitivity about people and you know,

1036
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 1: caring for people. It was it was something to behold.

1037
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: The other thing that I found fascinating is if you're

1038
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: a self promoter in that group. I'm not saying that

1039
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: wasn't any but you know, it was all about mission

1040
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: and if you look like you were just hustling, you didn't.

1041
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: Your career didn't go anywhere. They really believe in God

1042
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 1: and country and they behave that way. The other thing

1043
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: that you know, people think, you know, c I a

1044
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 1: lie cheese steel, but it has a very high standard

1045
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: insight to protect itself, I guess. But you know, we

1046
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: produced a lot of intelligence and a lot of delicate operations.

1047
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: And I think of my career and if if three

1048
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 1: people looked me in the eye and lied to me,

1049
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 1: A lot of people that don't tell me the whole story,

1050
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 1: which is a little different. It's a lot. If you

1051
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 1: ever get calledline about anything you're doing and reporting your

1052
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,439
Speaker 1: you're you're finished. It's as so fundamental as I said,

1053
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 1: you walked through the door. You should know the truth

1054
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: and I'll set you free. If you do not adhere

1055
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: to that, you're finished. And that was a culture that

1056
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: was instilled in the agency from the LSS and a

1057
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 1: lot of dedicated people. Um great sacrifice and no glory.

1058
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: You know today I'm allowed to write a book because

1059
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm tired of other people writing books telling their story

1060
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: and I've never been there. But you know, they were

1061
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: all quiet, and then the intelligence side it's very quiet.

1062
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: The reason I'm able to write again. I became part

1063
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 1: public at the end, but more importantly I got involved

1064
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 1: in that. One can ask themselves why, but I think

1065
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 1: partly because I ran there's covert action, So I was

1066
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 1: involved in a lot of covert action, and that almost

1067
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: that we've become the public. So the things we've talked

1068
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: about today are all in the public record because these

1069
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 1: are the classified and so on. What is it be classified?

1070
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: Is how to think about it? And I think that's

1071
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: a contribution I make. I think I make two contributions

1072
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 1: that I write. One is pulling the facts together in

1073
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: one place to make a coherent hold out of it.

1074
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: In second, use my spy Master's prison to give my

1075
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: interpretation for what you know, what it's worth. It's my

1076
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: look at the business these events from that optic, and

1077
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: the prison allows that a lot of other people can

1078
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: be looking at it differently, and I fully understanding of that.

1079
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: But I'm sure that the intelligence prison, at least from

1080
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: one one optic mind has as a hearing. Well, it

1081
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't be uh, a complete podcast if we didn't get

1082
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: into some of the the more difficult parts of the

1083
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 1: history of the agency. And that was there. There was

1084
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: a couple of malls, Russian moles and involved with one

1085
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: of them Alder James and the other Robert Hansen. But

1086
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: Robert Hanson was an FBI agent. But but I think

1087
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: both of them caused untold amount of damage. And you

1088
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: you talked about that in the book, and you know,

1089
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: one of the things that came out about both of

1090
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: them and you you mentioned they were both kind of underachievers,

1091
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: and that's kind of you know, it's this the kind

1092
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: of thing that our kinter intelligence people look for as

1093
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: guys who are underachieving, guys who are kind of stymied

1094
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 1: in their career. Yes, that's the short answer. Long answer

1095
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: is uh, it's the the counter intelligence business finding spies

1096
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: within the system. It's the real art for him. And

1097
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 1: again it's another one. It's like logistics, it's unsunk. You know,

1098
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 1: usually don't get an award for finding a spy, at

1099
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: least in our culture. There's KGB gives you a medal

1100
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 1: if you find an American spy in your system. We

1101
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: tend to we tend to give out reprimands. But so

1102
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 1: I knew Rickee's and I knew reconably well. And that's

1103
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: why it's more painful when you know it's you meet

1104
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: a spy and you know them and you worked with them. Uh,

1105
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, at least a lot of introspection. But I

1106
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: knew from from the reverse day I walked into the building.

1107
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: He was working on Russia. I was working on Eustern

1108
01:07:56,120 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: Europe and administrative job just basically be looking at cables

1109
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 1: and assignment they filed somewhere. But you know he was

1110
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 1: he was someone who came from a CIA family. I

1111
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: really didn't have any routes background I can call the

1112
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: background foreign service. What is that? Is that the foreign legion?

1113
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 1: So you know it was he was steeped in the

1114
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 1: lore of it um and um. I went to his wedding.

1115
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: He was you'd like this mokey, like that drink, but

1116
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: he was not ring materialistic uncept if you will. And

1117
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: I didn't see him for for twenty years. But over

1118
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 1: those twenty years, what sercers were direct was and then

1119
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,799
Speaker 1: retrospect as well. You know, you think you can size

1120
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: up the ego of somebody. But what I learned over

1121
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 1: many years is that whatever you think of ego is

1122
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: it's probably twice the size. Even people to look humble

1123
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: of the ego. So in Rick's case, you know, I

1124
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 1: didn't didn't because they didn't see the reason why we

1125
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 1: have such a big ego. Right. The smart guy read

1126
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: a lot um. But his performance, he just was a

1127
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 1: turrible under performance. He did very well on things he liked. Yeah,

1128
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: but you can't go to life saying, listen, I like

1129
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 1: I just like to do one thing yea, uh, cleaning again.

1130
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna clean again. I'll just shoot it, you know,

1131
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 1: to get well, that's good. So he was an underperformer

1132
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: and what happened, And this is why I think it

1133
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:31,559
Speaker 1: is a the telltale sign when you look for when

1134
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: you go hunting for a spine, and that's when you

1135
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 1: have this narcissistic, bigger than life ego and they can

1136
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 1: be some good You don't have to be walking around

1137
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 1: at a flashy soon. I mean, it's if you just

1138
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,639
Speaker 1: have to be able understand that people really think they're

1139
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 1: good and combining with underperforming and then they cannot figure

1140
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:53,759
Speaker 1: out I'm so good. Why am I not being promoted

1141
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 1: with Jack Dells be promoted And so it's that gap

1142
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 1: between self evaluation and performance. And then they become dissatisfied

1143
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 1: with the system. That Rick was not converted the Communism

1144
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:13,679
Speaker 1: report ants and never converted the Communists. They just thought

1145
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: that they were really gifted men and nobody appreciated them,

1146
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 1: and they were getting the role, thend, the the stay.

1147
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 1: So you know, where where does treason begin? That begins

1148
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 1: in the mind, It begins in this space. Both of

1149
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: them had the fluke of life. The Russians got so

1150
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: lucky that at one point in time they had two

1151
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 1: of the guys in the both sensitive Russia offices, you

1152
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,560
Speaker 1: know in the U. S. Government, Right, So that's a

1153
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 1: that's luck, but he can't argue against it. So they

1154
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:56,400
Speaker 1: not only had the trees in his mind, they had

1155
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 1: access to things that mattered. And Uh, in risk case,

1156
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,600
Speaker 1: he drank and drank a lot. The medic said he

1157
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 1: was an alcoholic, but it's the distinction without the difference though,

1158
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 1: and so he drank a lot, but it was episodical.

1159
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: So he had a reason to go into Russian embassy

1160
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 1: because he had reason because of a Russian ci Russian

1161
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:27,600
Speaker 1: law specialists had a reason, and he sat outside in

1162
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 1: and three or four or five vodkas or whatever, and

1163
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 1: then decided he was going to walk in and he

1164
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:37,640
Speaker 1: was going to handle this is the other part of that.

1165
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: He could handle them right sea. He was going to

1166
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:43,639
Speaker 1: a little sheet of paper with a couple of names

1167
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 1: on or the second meeting, he dump eleven of our

1168
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: best Russians in the premnin and intelligence services. He gave

1169
01:11:53,479 --> 01:12:00,120
Speaker 1: him the whole It was in junior live and they

1170
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:05,600
Speaker 1: gave them the crown jewels. They all were executed. The

1171
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: KGB was urgly not to execute them right because what

1172
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 1: they wanted to do was to run run operations. But

1173
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 1: the poler just founded such a such a front, the

1174
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:22,600
Speaker 1: communist system or whatever. They had them all executed, but

1175
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 1: it took a while for the agency to come into

1176
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 1: terms with the same. The FBI, I was hunting for

1177
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 1: Hanson in c I C I A, because I knew

1178
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 1: there was another moment, as did answer all the questions,

1179
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:38,680
Speaker 1: but in the FBI thought he was in ci A.

1180
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 1: Later on it turned out he was smashing the middle

1181
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:49,640
Speaker 1: of their Russian operation. So um the the opportunities that

1182
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 1: that they had made a big, big, big difference, and

1183
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: when they when they absolutely started working for for the Russians,

1184
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 1: and well, it was interesting in both cases. I should

1185
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: point about the other side of the fifth coin. And

1186
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 1: there's movies out, so you're looking at the movies. You

1187
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: have to pay careful attention Breach, which I think is

1188
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 1: a very good movie about Handsome, But you have to

1189
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 1: listen carefully because it looks like all the work is

1190
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 1: being done by getting is what they used to call

1191
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,960
Speaker 1: a pilot and getting his phone. But the title of

1192
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 1: my chapters, it takes a spy to catch a spy, right.

1193
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 1: So the way we got a Handsome, the way we

1194
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 1: got Ames is another spy, a Russian spy gave them

1195
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 1: up right. And we had a hard time, as I

1196
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 1: was saying a few minutes ago, coming to terms, we

1197
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 1: actually had a spy the FBI had. It can't be

1198
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: one of us. We're all patriots, right, And what didn't

1199
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:45,640
Speaker 1: make the point in my book for those who are

1200
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:49,599
Speaker 1: going to reach on students of intelligence business your mess

1201
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 1: assume you always have spies. We've always had them inside

1202
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,799
Speaker 1: our systems, we have them inside our government. It's naive

1203
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 1: to think otherwise, and you need to have a strong

1204
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 1: counter intelligence, but it took us a few years to

1205
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 1: find names because we got distracted when Lone Tree walked

1206
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 1: in the russ into the embassy and in Moscow, we

1207
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 1: thought that's how we lost our Asians. And then there

1208
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:14,759
Speaker 1: was a technological reason there. Spent a year analyzing beams

1209
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:19,160
Speaker 1: bouncing off of us, and eventually they went. They almost

1210
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: didn't go back. In one moment, Jean vertebrate, it was

1211
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 1: about to retire, so let me go to the file again.

1212
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: Let me see if I can find something. And then

1213
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 1: hence began the unwrappling of aims, and then we got

1214
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:35,759
Speaker 1: a break with the other factors. So it's an important

1215
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 1: I spent more time on the spy cases and good

1216
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 1: hunting has been a lot of covert action. Both of

1217
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 1: them have by cases and so on. But you know,

1218
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 1: they're fascinating to read, and you can the reason I

1219
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 1: say it takes us by against us by is when

1220
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 1: I went back and started doing the research, it's very

1221
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 1: hard for me to find one that wasn't wasn't compromised

1222
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:03,679
Speaker 1: by another spot. And I think it's an interesting read

1223
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 1: in that regard. Hmm, yeah, and uh again, I mean, well,

1224
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:13,639
Speaker 1: I asked you for sixty minutes of your time. We're

1225
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 1: almost that hour and a half, but I didn't want

1226
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 1: to ask you, you know, from insider's perspective, somebody who's

1227
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,800
Speaker 1: spending a good chunk of your life there. Uh, how

1228
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 1: do you feel the agency is looking moving forward? I

1229
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: know we kind of switch gears a little bit, uh

1230
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 1: after nine eleven, and you know, we got um the

1231
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:40,680
Speaker 1: entire apparatus involved the count of terrorism, and now it

1232
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:42,640
Speaker 1: looks like we're going back to the big game with

1233
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:46,040
Speaker 1: the Russians and the Chinese. How are we looking? How

1234
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 1: do you feel like the CIA is matching up switching

1235
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:53,800
Speaker 1: gears at this point? So your n ask point, I mean,

1236
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 1: is a really good one about the change in targeting, right,

1237
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 1: So I must say every once in a while, I

1238
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 1: get things right in a good tiding. I've basically said that,

1239
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, this is an four team that basically we

1240
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 1: were going to be moving into a new target set,

1241
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:13,800
Speaker 1: which would be nationalism was coming back, and we'll be

1242
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:17,200
Speaker 1: going back to the hard targets and terrorism will be waning.

1243
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:21,560
Speaker 1: But I very carefully put in the terrorism. It was

1244
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:23,760
Speaker 1: not going to wait totally, you know, any given day,

1245
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: I mean nine eleven. That one day changed the next

1246
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,439
Speaker 1: twenty years in terms of how we were going to

1247
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 1: spend money in in the national defense. So but it

1248
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 1: was it seemed to me that there's a trend line

1249
01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:39,760
Speaker 1: in terrorism. We've seen it spike in the seventies. It

1250
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 1: was much worse and nine eleven attack and a lot

1251
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:49,479
Speaker 1: of efforts put into fighting it. But we shifted because

1252
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,160
Speaker 1: the coal word had come to an end. We shifted

1253
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 1: to the counter terrorists and Marina and all agencies. Budgets

1254
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: were funneled into it. And it changes. It becomes a

1255
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 1: different targets that different types of people need to do.

1256
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 1: The jobs have the emphasis on para military tactical and

1257
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:13,560
Speaker 1: I think you know, we could see it changing in

1258
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: the last couple of years. And the agency and all

1259
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 1: military is the same process of how do you adjust

1260
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:26,400
Speaker 1: readjust now to a nation state like China, how do

1261
01:17:26,479 --> 01:17:29,680
Speaker 1: you how do you deal with h deal with an

1262
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:33,880
Speaker 1: aggressive Russia? And how do you allocate your butt? So

1263
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 1: if you're internally in both the military, so you have

1264
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 1: to do some soul searching. We've done it before military

1265
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:43,760
Speaker 1: and the CI and you have to what type of

1266
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 1: soldiers are you? What I mean, what are targets, what

1267
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 1: what tools are we going to use? So I think

1268
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,120
Speaker 1: my exposure to the CIA would suggest that we have,

1269
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,560
Speaker 1: you know, very talent. We certainly have talented people in

1270
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:02,000
Speaker 1: the military, and military is the best trainers in history

1271
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 1: and how the training the best numbers of people who

1272
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 1: the most background. So I think we have that we

1273
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 1: have that capability. I think there's a question that will

1274
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 1: outside of the agency and outside of the military, that

1275
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: is where is this country? Where do we want to go?

1276
01:18:20,280 --> 01:18:22,879
Speaker 1: And what's the policy. Otherways, if you tell the military

1277
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: this is what I went done, they'll get it done.

1278
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,960
Speaker 1: You tell the agency these are the priorities. So I

1279
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:30,840
Speaker 1: again from back to the dysfunctional Congress, you know, we

1280
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 1: need to interact together on what is it? What is

1281
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 1: it we're going to be doing with these tools? And

1282
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:41,479
Speaker 1: uh and I think the presidential policy they have to decide,

1283
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 1: you know what matters. I think the agencies are capable

1284
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 1: of doing it, but they all have to read. They're

1285
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:49,599
Speaker 1: in a process. They need to go through a process

1286
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 1: of retooling and how they do it. And the other

1287
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 1: thing that I would say, and I would say less

1288
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: is less through the military because their weapons are modernize

1289
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 1: and that supports things are modernized and it's an over

1290
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:08,600
Speaker 1: world exactly true. The fact that you're modernizing eventually, the

1291
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:11,400
Speaker 1: fact that you have, you know, an advanced weapons system

1292
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 1: is visible to everybody. The production of it is very secret.

1293
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 1: But in the intelligence world, we're moving so fast in

1294
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:26,439
Speaker 1: terms of cyber and communications and what's possible tend to

1295
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:32,240
Speaker 1: people inside the agency. Are they tooled? Are we collecting

1296
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:35,360
Speaker 1: the right way? Are we the way that we collected

1297
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:39,960
Speaker 1: a mayor? Is the same approach? Are we modern enough?

1298
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 1: And I think the book is to be written yet

1299
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 1: on that test my experience, you tell me in the

1300
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,840
Speaker 1: past we measured up and made the adjustments every time

1301
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:54,560
Speaker 1: there was innovation. But I do think we're in a

1302
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 1: transition here, partly a policy transition, partly the tools of flying,

1303
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:02,559
Speaker 1: the pools of warfare, training, training. We need to make

1304
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 1: sure we've got the right tools lined up for the

1305
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 1: right targets, and and uh, we need to change our

1306
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:14,519
Speaker 1: mindset about how we do do certain things. Are we

1307
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:16,559
Speaker 1: going to wait for somebody to walk into an embassy

1308
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:18,439
Speaker 1: when we have a twenty foot wall around? And how

1309
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,680
Speaker 1: how are we getting sources when you can use your

1310
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,679
Speaker 1: phone to reach thousands of people and basically cold pitch

1311
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:26,080
Speaker 1: and if that's what you want to do, but those

1312
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 1: decisions have to be be made. I don't think they're

1313
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:32,680
Speaker 1: completely joined yet. I think they're it's in process, and

1314
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 1: I guess I would say I'm optimistic, optimistic, but recognizing

1315
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:41,840
Speaker 1: that there's no sleep pass forward. There'll be bumps, will

1316
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 1: be failures, but hopefully the failures turning into you know,

1317
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:50,519
Speaker 1: um makes successes because you learn from it. So I

1318
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:52,360
Speaker 1: think there's a bumpy I think we're going into a

1319
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: bumpy road on so many aspects of American Mike, including

1320
01:20:57,080 --> 01:21:00,680
Speaker 1: mass security. If that's side was saying, I want to

1321
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 1: be clear, it's not side to Trump, is not tide.

1322
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:08,760
Speaker 1: The bidens where we is in our national psyche? Where

1323
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 1: are we and what matters to us? Well, we encourage

1324
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 1: all our listeners to read Jack Devine's new book of

1325
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 1: Spy Master's Prison, The Fight Against Russian Aggression. It comes

1326
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:26,679
Speaker 1: out on March one. It is definitely a compelling read

1327
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 1: and we want to thank thank you served for your

1328
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 1: one for your service, your thirty two years with the

1329
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:39,840
Speaker 1: Central Intelligence Agency. And now he's a founding partner and

1330
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:43,160
Speaker 1: the president of the ark And Group, which is internal

1331
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:51,080
Speaker 1: crisis management and strategic intelligence. Um yea organization, but it's

1332
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 1: not a mini CIA as he put out earlier. But

1333
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,760
Speaker 1: before we go, I just need to read something real quick.

1334
01:21:58,120 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 1: If you want to get soft rep on your phone,

1335
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 1: don't load our free mobile app and get easy access

1336
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 1: to our articles, podcasts, your reviews, all perfectly formatity your device.

1337
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 1: Please subscribe to software dot com to gain access to

1338
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:14,000
Speaker 1: our library of e books and our exclusive team room

1339
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: forms and content, all available on Apple and Android devices. Jack,

1340
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time with us today. I

1341
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:25,519
Speaker 1: wish we could spend another three hours. I could talk

1342
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 1: to you about a myriad of other subjects and I

1343
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 1: would love to pick your brain on it. But we'll

1344
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:35,559
Speaker 1: have to do this again sometime real soon. But thank you, uh,

1345
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 1: and thanks for your service. Thanks for your input today.

1346
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: I think all of our listeners are really getting a

1347
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 1: lot out of this. Thank you for giving me an

1348
01:22:45,160 --> 01:22:47,920
Speaker 1: opportunity to say thank you to all the folks out there,

1349
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 1: because well, good luck, good luck with the book. Now,

1350
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 1: do you have any book signings coming? I know with

1351
01:22:55,280 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: COVID it's probably not. Uh, probably is prevalent as those

1352
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:05,280
Speaker 1: things used to be, right, I think what what I'm

1353
01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 1: going to try and do, and maybe I can follow

1354
01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:10,599
Speaker 1: up behind this with you know, if you could put

1355
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:12,640
Speaker 1: out sort of links where they can get, you know,

1356
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: get the books, that would be helpful. Uh. In the

1357
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 1: old days, I would show up and sign a lot

1358
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: of books, but I don't think that's going to happen,

1359
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:23,000
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a limiting factor. But I do

1360
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:28,640
Speaker 1: think I'm going to have systematize linking so listeners can

1361
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:32,080
Speaker 1: can more easily. It's it's going Amazon, Barnes and Noble.

1362
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's out there and readily available. But um,

1363
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:40,360
Speaker 1: if someone likes it, write a good review. If they

1364
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 1: don't like it, don't do anything, well, well we'll be

1365
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 1: writing a review from from my reading of it. It'll

1366
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: be out right about the time the podcast comes out,

1367
01:23:52,479 --> 01:23:55,559
Speaker 1: and we should be right around the time the book

1368
01:23:55,560 --> 01:24:00,000
Speaker 1: gets released, so hopefully, well we can help you generally

1369
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 1: eat a couple of sales of that as well. Well.

1370
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Steve. It's a pleasure. I mean,

1371
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:08,160
Speaker 1: it's really good to have an interview with something that's

1372
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:11,040
Speaker 1: actually bag the material and knowledgeable about it and some

1373
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 1: of the fun things with the mules was great. Um,

1374
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:16,760
Speaker 1: just when you send it out, just flag it for

1375
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 1: me the link because I'm going to put it out

1376
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 1: the our clients and friends to make sure they know

1377
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:26,160
Speaker 1: about the radio program. So thank you very much. Sure,

1378
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 1: thanks and thanks again for joining us, and thanks for

1379
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:32,559
Speaker 1: all our listeners out there for myself Steve bow Surry

1380
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 1: are our special guests today, Jack Divine from c I

1381
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 1: A and uh definitely read his book Spymaster's Prison for

1382
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 1: all of us here. We'll be back real soon with

1383
01:24:45,400 --> 01:25:04,799
Speaker 1: another podcast. You've been listening to Self Red Radio