WEBVTT - On Teasing 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:14.200 Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.400 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.040 McCormick and Robert. I've got a question for you. You 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:23.040 ever find yourself in that situation where you're hanging out 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:27.280 with people. It's all good fun, everybody's there's banter going on. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:31.000 One person is teasing another person over something kind of funny, 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.960 some funny foible of their personality, and there's that moment, 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.360 there's that awful little moment where there's kind of a 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.400 pause after somebody says some some teasing joke and then 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.760 you realize like, oh no, suddenly it has gotten serious. 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.720 Oh yes, I mean it's especially if it it's a 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.920 multi person group and and there's a bit of piling 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.880 on occurring. They'll be there, I've seen this, this happened, 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.480 where they'll they'll be a breaking point where the person 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.560 has had an enough and and and you realize, oh, no, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.040 lines have been crossed, and now this person who is 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.440 gonna leave and we're gonna have to resolve this uh 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.800 via emails later. Uh yeah. And it's a ter it's 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.360 a terrible feeling because things have spiraled out of control. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.319 Something that was playful and um and just part of 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:22.160 hanging out has now become a divisive email the best 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:27.040 place to work out tense social disputes. Well sometimes sometimes 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.120 it depends. I mean, I guess it depends on what 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.480 role one had in the in the breakdown. I've been 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.640 fortunate enough to to not be like at the epicenter 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:41.160 of the of the breakdown generally, so um email tends 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.319 to suffice for me. You know, you never have to 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.280 worry that when you type a smiley emoji that will 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.440 look like a fake smile. When you actually smile at somebody, 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.840 you always gotta worry like does this look real? Is 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.200 my face moving? Right? You just have to use the 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.240 authentic smiling emoji, not the inauthentic one. You know, it's 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.760 all on the micro expressions of the emoji. What's the 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.360 authentic one that's like colon and clothes brackets? Oh no, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:05.440 I'm talking about the ones that actually like the little 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.440 yellow face with the smile, like you'll know what when 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:11.520 you see it. But is everyone can realize at this point, 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.720 we're talking about teasing today on the show, and teasing 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:19.440 is weird territory to try and figure out deceptively, so really, um, 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.160 for many of us looking back on our childhoods, it's 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.400 it makes up some of our worst memories of social interaction. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:27.760 And as a as a parent, I have a lot 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.959 of apprehension about it, you know, regarding my own child, 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.840 the inevitable struggles that he's gonna gonna face. And at 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.200 the same time, there's this weird cult of the tease 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:40.760 that is often difficult to understand. We see teasing in 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.640 our media, and it's sometimes presented as in a fun 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.800 comical light. We also see adults for whom teasing is 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.839 a standard part of their interactions, not fighting with each other, 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.680 but but just picking in various ways that it's it 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:59.440 seems like they're just terms of endearments, joking, benign criticism. Yeah, 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.520 and it and uh. It's often a case where I 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.440 look at it and I realized, well, this is clearly 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.480 part of their social dynamic. It wouldn't necessarily work in 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.840 my social dynamic. But I guess it's okay. Uh. We 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.640 see it factor into courtship as well, which also has 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.160 a way of of seeming weird and sour at times 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.840 of an outside perspective. Right. Well, I mean there's there's 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.480 two very different ways it can take place. There's a 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.600 kind you can see, a kind of friendly, sweet teasing 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.440 that takes place between people in a courtship relationship. And 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.280 then there's like the pickup artist version of it, where 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.800 somebody's clearly like making a power play. Right. And then 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.600 likewise we also see this this space, this sort of 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:43.000 ambiguous space where playful teasing gives over to what is 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:47.440 clearly something based in hate and abuse name calling uh 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.200 that occurs among children and even among adults. Obviously even 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.240 at the highest levels of government, you see name calling 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.680 used in a in a hurtful fashion. So if you start, 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.760 if you start picking out and I imagine a lot 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:01.560 of your doing this as well, thinking of all the 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.119 varying levels of teasing that are going on in your 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:09.760 immediate environment and um in politics and the media, etcetera. 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.880 On the street as you're driving your car and listen 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.240 to this podcast. You know, it's enough to make you 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.839 wonder if if we're just nothing more than just cruel 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:21.159 apes jockeying for social position, uh, And it's any wonder 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.599 that we managed to emerge from these social interactions with 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:28.320 self esteem and respect for our fellow humans. But part 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.479 of the issue here is that while all forms of 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.840 teasing share common features, there are at least three distinctive 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.760 forms of teasing that are often signal, that are often 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.000 singled out and definitely deserve mention here. Okay, well, what 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.839 would those forms be? All right? Well, the first is 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.000 pretty obvious, and that is that is the hurtful teasing. 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:48.880 And I think it's one of those things where we 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:50.760 all we all know it when we see it, right 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.000 or hear it. This is obviously the domain of bullying 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.560 and harassment, and yet at the same time it's the 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.320 sort of teasing you might see in a celebrity post 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:03.880 or some of you are more viciously charged a humor 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.800 or political humor. I guess you could also say it's 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.880 maybe the domain of the jester, the fool, and the clown. 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.839 Uh and important These are important roles throughout human history. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.760 Oh yeah, well, I mean I might argue that the 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:19.159 fool in the Shakespearean sense requires its own category here, 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.719 because the fool has a lot of power and freedom, 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.279 and that's important power and freedom. Like they're the only 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.600 member of the lower classes who can point out the 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.400 flaws of the monarchs and the upper classes and get 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.680 away with it. There's something about the ridiculousness of the 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.200 fool that allows a critique of power that might result 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.880 in a beheading if you made the same critique in 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.240 a serious tone. And likewise, a king who beheads a 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.320 jester every week is a terrible king. They look weak. Yeah, 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.800 it makes the king look foolish if the king overreacts 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.880 to a to a comical critique, right, I think you're 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.000 pointing Joffrey from Game of Thrones is this type of 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.839 ruler where you realize how he's terrible. He's totally incompetent. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:08.240 Look how thin Skinndy is against Uh, the humorous criticism 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.520 of the the court fool. Well, it codes so easily 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.440 for us. I mean, one of the clearest signs of 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:20.800 a toxic personality is somebody who's unable to accept criticism 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.719 and even benign criticism, or to be the butt of 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:28.240 a joke. You know, somebody who cannot tolerate that, especially 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.359 because of the positive role that teasing plays in our culture. 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.520 I mean, there's so much teasing that is not hurtful, hateful. 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:40.440 I mean it is a constant feature of conversation between friends, 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:45.960 between couples, between family members, between educators and the people 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.240 they educate. Teasing, you know, there's like a sweet, benign 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.159 form of teasing that's absolutely essential to these relationships. You know. 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.040 I do have to add one more thing about the 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.400 gesture first, though, and there is there is this this 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.160 curious aspect of the dying ammic you see with kind 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:06.320 of a classic gesture situation, but also in modern political humor, 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.280 there are two extremes that are both equally well, maybe 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.160 not equally, but they're both cringe worthy. Certainly when the king, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.720 the rule or the politician, whoever the celebrity is too 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.720 thin skinned to let humorous bashing go where they have 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.560 to call out, say, you know an episode of Saturday 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.680 Night Live, right, if you made a joke about me, 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.840 how dare you right? Yeah? That is is cringeworthy and awful. 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:32.840 But on the same hand, and this is something that 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.040 I believe it was pointed out on an episode of 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:39.480 Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast, there's also this danger in 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.760 what happens when the king says, yeah, this gesture guys, great, 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:44.680 I'm going to hang out with him and do a 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.560 skit with him, or or yeah, that's Saturday Night Life 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.520 skit is funny. I'm gonna appear on that Saturday Night 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.040 Life skit with the person doing an impression of me. 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.160 There can be uh, too much protection of one's dignity 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.280 is a bad sign, but too much surrender of one's 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.920 dignity also looks kind of bad. Like you got to 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.360 find the middle ground. You want the ruler that that 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.240 ultimately has very little to do with the gesture and 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.000 doesn't politely laughs perhaps but leaves it at that. I 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.640 know exactly what you're talking about. Like when presidential candidates 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.240 go on SNL, that's always like, I don't know, it's 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.000 just always terrible. Yeah. But one of the points that 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.559 Malcolm Gladwell made in his show is that it takes 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.640 the punch out of the political humor, like you managed 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:29.400 in a way. It's like it's a genius move I 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.480 guess for the politician, because you have you have killed 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.560 the humorous skit. You have you have killed the power 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.640 of the humor in a way that you could never 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.320 do by attacking it. Well, yeah, I guess it doesn't 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.080 make you look great, but it also is a type 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:48.960 of defense mechanism. It undercuts any truly biting criticism that's 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.760 hidden there in the in the comedy. If you go 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.800 on stage with the comedian. Yes, oh, but before we 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.080 were talking about the jester, we were we were about 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.480 to get into playful teasing. You know, the sweet form 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.959 of teasing, right, And obviously there's a line between hurtful 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.479 and and u and playful teasing good luck finding, especially 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:12.160 with people you're maybe not that familiar with. But yeah, 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.000 especially in close relationships, you tend to see these you know, 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.840 you see in jokes and you see established safe zones 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.920 for playful teasing. Uh. For instance, if my wife teases 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.200 me about some nerdy hobby of mine, uh, it's it's 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.960 really more of a form, more of a term of endearment. 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.640 Or if she teases me about liking robot music, like 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.280 like really robotic sounding electronic music, and uh and teasing 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.040 me about how awful it sounds. Uh like like this 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.880 is that this feels good when we're doing it. I 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.679 don't feel hurt or defensive about you know, my my 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:50.360 love of dungeons and dragons, or or or my miniatures 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.680 painting miniatures, or yeah, or my affinity for the music 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.040 of autech or that sort of thing. Yeah, I think 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:00.800 almost all good romantic relationships include an element of teasing. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:02.680 I don't, you know. I don't want to be overly general. 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.640 So maybe some people people make it work in all 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.320 kinds of ways, but I rarely see what seems like 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.280 a happy couple that doesn't tease one another, right, I mean, 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:14.200 it seems like you do. And this is something we're 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.520 going to return to throughout this episode, this idea that 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.320 that teasing it is, is an opportunity for bond forming 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.760 and the establishment and the maintaining of bonds. And but 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.800 obviously you need a safe place for the teasing. Just 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.439 you know, all of us, I think we're going to have, 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.480 unless we are some sort of like in human politician type, 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:37.720 you know, we're going to have those areas that we 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.640 are cool being teased about in areas that we're less 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.520 comfortable being teased about. You know, thinking about several of 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.880 the areas that that teasing functions in our our social interactions, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.640 one of which is sort of reminding people of hierarchies 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.959 or establishing hierarchies. That it does something of enforcing a 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:00.679 pecking order. Number two is maybe like establishing a criticism 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:04.920 of somebody's behavior. And number three is allowing bonding. Put 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.319 these three things together, and it seems like a key 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.880 place where teasing should come into play is education, right, 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.480 because that's a place where you need a hierarchy between 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.160 teacher and student. You want to teach lessons and you 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.120 also want to have a good relationship. That's right. So 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.360 this brings us to this third area of teasing, educative teasing, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.640 and this pops up in areas that you wouldn't quite 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:29.000 expect it as, as we'll discuss a little later. One 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.440 example is that is that of a frat boys giving 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.400 each other nicknames based on, you know, various bone headed 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.800 things they've done. Uh And and this can be viewed 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:43.000 as a way of of educating, of laying down various 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:48.520 um moral rules or or social expectations. Right, you teasing, 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.960 you might get nicknamed like, I don't know, toilet head 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.280 because you fell asleep with your head in the toilet, right, 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.480 And the idea is, don't do that. Don't drink so 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.080 much that you sleep in the toilet. But then again, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:01.840 one of the things I noticed about that kind of 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:06.359 teasing is that toilet head might originally be applied as 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:10.640 a sort of like moral injunction. But that toilet Head 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.680 make may well come to identify with the nickname and say, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.839 that's right, that's who I am. I am toilet Head forevermore, 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.679 and I will embrace it. Yeah. Now, some anthropologists point 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:26.160 to specific traditions of educated teasing between parents and children 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:31.120 in various Indigenous American um cultures, and the idea here 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.080 is that it's a form of teasing that can work 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:39.040 better to impart knowledge of social rules and emotionally instilled ideas. However, 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.040 we we didn't really focus on any of that for 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:42.920 this research, but I just want to let everyone know 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.240 that that that is an area of study. Now, as 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.640 far as these three terms for types of teasing go, 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.680 I I feel like there's some difficulty in how we 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.000 use terms here because I admit that I would typically 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:59.480 reserve the word teasing for the more benign or playful 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.440 forms what we were calling hurtful teasing, the kind that's 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.360 actually cruel and mean spirited. I would not usually call teasing. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.640 I'd probably call it bullying or harassment or something. Um though. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.640 It's what what this highlights is that the line between 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.600 playful teasing and hurtful bullying is not always clear. It's 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.640 not always clear to the person doing it. It's always 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.720 not always clear to the person receiving it. What sometimes 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.960 ment is benign or playful by the teaser can feel 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.480 like bullying to the teaz and sometimes more benign or 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.679 playful forms of teasing. I bet you've been there for this. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.760 I think we sort of talked about it at the beginning. 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.079 It starts off as a friendly and playful session of 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.520 ribbing that somehow catches this terrible momentum. I don't know 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.480 what causes it, but that momentum it edges into harder 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.600 and meaner stuff as it escalates, and it's this enormously 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.200 painful and uncomfortable thing to witness, And looking back, I 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.440 can remember instances of this in my life where I 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.840 watch something like this happened to somebody else, and in retrospect, 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.720 like I wish I'd found a way to step in 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.560 in the moment and stop it. But it's so much 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.640 easier to to to feel that kind of policing authority 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.520 in retrospect in the moment, to step in like that 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.200 into clear teasing. To have gone too far requires you 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.160 to take this major risk. It feels like you're violating 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.640 a taboo, you're making it weird, you know, you know 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.000 about making it weird, right, um, And in the moment 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.280 you're never really sure if you've like misread some kind 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.440 of unspoken set of cues. Maybe everything is actually okay, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.200 and you're the one who's making people feel bad by 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.640 getting serious from out of nowhere. It can be a 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:44.360 really difficult and complicated uh dance to to navigate. All right, 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.000 on that note, we're gonna take a quick break and 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.200 when we come back, we're gonna we're gonna really get 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.560 into the question of teasing and what purpose it truly serves. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.600 Thank thank thank Alright, we're back. So one of the 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:01.040 big names that comes up in teasing resear is that 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:06.000 of psychiatry and psychology researcher Dr Keltner, who has written 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.160 on this, researched on this, and one of the big 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.160 pieces that has often circulated is a two thousand and 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.560 eight New York Times piece titled in Defensive Teasing. Uh. 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.840 And he also directs the Berkeley Social Interaction Lab. So 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.680 this is like right in his uh, his area of focus. Yeah, 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.040 Keltner makes an interesting point, which is that a lot 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.760 of our social conventions in the modern age, I think 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:35.280 are centered around trying to make social interactions more safe, 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:37.880 which in a way is a good thing. Right. We 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.920 we all know how destructive and terrible bullying can be. 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.920 We've all seen the kind of teasing in a relationship. 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.840 And you know, somebody's somebody's got a new boyfriend and 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.360 he's teasing her, but he's like going a little hard. 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.560 It doesn't quite seem so sweet. And when you think 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.800 about stuff like that, it can be very easy to 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.520 start to to start to view teasing is this really 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.720 negative thing. It's this this cruel, malicious force that permeates 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.600 our culture and and make you want to do things 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.360 to eliminate it. Right, Well, how can we get people 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.760 to not act like this? But I feel like teasing 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:16.720 is a situation where you really don't want to throw 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.640 the baby out with the bathwater. Well you don't, but 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.280 you you want to protect the baby. That's the thing 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.920 I mean. Throughout this episode, I kept coming I keep 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:30.680 coming back to um, my own son, and I just 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.560 want to protect him so much from these things. At 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.200 the same time, I realized I can't protect him there 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.400 from everything. I can't just chattow him through school and 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.360 you know, feed him excellent, you know, comebacks. Uh, anytime 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.680 anybody is is trying to tease him, he's going to 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.240 be teased. It's it's inevitable, and he it's probably inevitable 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.280 to that to engage in teasing. Um. But at the 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.040 same time, it is hard for me to just really 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.360 get behind everything Kelton is saying about just the importance 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.160 of teasing, like, I still my impulse to protect is 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.199 too strong. Well, I mean, I think the point he 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.960 would be making is that the good kind of teasing 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.720 is not actually hurtful, it's not actually something that needs 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.439 to be protected. And he is not advocating that that 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:20.440 bullying should be permitted. It's very clear about that. But 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.600 but but he does make this strong, strong case that 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.120 that teasing is an essential part of our social interactions, 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.560 and in fact, he points out that the teasing is 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.240 pervasive in the animal world. Right now, we generally think 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.440 of teasing as you know, as a verbal phenomenon, right 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:39.280 and I guess you do have to think of of 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.240 human teasing as as a lot of things with humans 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.719 happens to be you think of it as a linguistic 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.240 and cultural complication of an impulse that may also be 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:55.600 found within uh language less animals, and so, for instance, 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.879 Keltner says, quote, the centrality of teasing in our social 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.919 evolution is suggests by just how pervasive teasing is in 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.560 the animal world. Younger monkeys pull the tales of older monkeys. 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.359 African hunting dogs jump all over one another, much like 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.960 pad slapping joking football players moments before kickoff. In every 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.960 corner of the world, human adults play peekaboo games to 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.400 stir a sulking child. Children as early as age one 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.600 mimic nearby adults and teenagers prod one another to gauge 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.560 romantic interest. In rejecting teasing, we may be losing something 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.320 vital and necessary to our identity as the most playful 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.160 of species. I mean, I think I'm pretty on board 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.320 with his message there. It's the the difficulty comes in 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:45.719 our uncertainty about recognizing the line between benign teasing and 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:50.359 hurtful teasing. And and I think it's because there's that ambiguity, 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.240 because there's always the danger that you you're not necessarily 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.320 going to be able to recognize immediately the difference between 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:59.159 one or the other. It's exactly the same problem. I 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.520 was mentioning a minute go where you like, I think 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.320 back on a time you saw somebody getting teased and 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.439 it went over the line, but you didn't stop it. Um, 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.160 it's because of that ambiguity, like you didn't know if 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.040 you should step in or not. And that ambiguity makes 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.120 us uncomfortable because we know teasing this over the line 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.320 is wrong, but you can't always see the line in 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.960 the moment. It would be interesting to hear from from 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.680 educators out there who are listening to the show on this, 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.280 because it does make one think that the message should 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.399 not be hey, kids, don't tease one another. It should 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.840 maybe be more. Here areas where it is not cool 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:34.800 to tease, you know, like it's not cool to tease 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:41.920 someone about their physical appearance or the characters or stereotypes, etcetera. Uh, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.000 but various behavioral teasing. I don't know how, I mean, 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:47.280 how do you end up teaching such nuance? Maybe you 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.840 to a certain extent, you can't. It has to generate 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.800 via the social interactions. Here's something I would say, Um, well, 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.440 with a with a big exception for we can talk 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.560 about the jester in a second, with a big exception 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.480 for the jester. Maybe one thing is that you shouldn't 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.359 tease somebody unless you like them and they know you 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.600 like them. That's true, because otherwise, if the if the 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.480 existing social dynamic is is is anything different, than you 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.080 are perhaps not engaging in pure teasing. No, I mean, 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.960 then it becomes bullying. When you tease somebody you don't 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.879 even like her respect, obviously you're you're going to be 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.760 tempted to edge over into some form of cruelty. Now, 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.480 speaking of cruelty, we have to think again of of kings, 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:32.760 and of course the jester. Keltner points out then that 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.240 in the tradition of the court jester, you could say 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:39.920 teasing is quote a playful, provocative mode of commentary. Yeah, 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.800 I think that's right. I mean, as Touchstone said in 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.920 Shakespeare's as you Like It quote, the fool don't think 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.399 he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.359 be a fool. You know, that's hundreds of years before 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.720 all the modern research on illusory confidence and dunning Krueger 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:57.160 and all that. I think this reveals that a key 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.000 social good of even harder edged thing is that when 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.880 it's properly applied, it can be kind of a leveling 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:07.440 tool like it knocks down the wickerman of big egos 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.760 and and pops the balloons of unearned self confidence that 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.920 we see so often in our highest levels of leadership. 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.440 But of course, just as often it's applied the other way, 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.520 and in a very bad, destructive way. It gets applied 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.639 from the top down by the inflated ego against the 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.640 less empowered. I guess as sort of like a hierarchy 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.800 enforcement mechanism, but the bottom up form, the jester driven form. 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.560 I think that's a that leveling instinct is a useful 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.800 social good and a form of freedom. Teasing is an 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:40.680 arena that allows us to experiment with language, with personality 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.840 and relationships. It's sort of an open ended game that 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:47.159 we can use to manage relationships and learn about each other. Now, 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.439 Culton A. Keltner also turns to the work of linguistic 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:56.879 anthropologist Penelope Brown and cognitive anthropologist Stephen Levinson, who I 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.560 believe we've we've touched on both of their work before 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.560 on the podcast, but their work that he's referencing here 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.040 is more specifically aligned with the study of politeness. But 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.159 of interest here is the their focus on two forms 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.600 of communication like basically breaking down communication into two forms 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.520 that we're talking mostly about linguistic communication here, but on 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.480 the on record communication and off record communication. Okay, so 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.800 tell me the difference. Okay, So on record communication is 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.560