1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: McCormick and Robert. I've got a question for you. You 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: ever find yourself in that situation where you're hanging out 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: with people. It's all good fun, everybody's there's banter going on. 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: One person is teasing another person over something kind of funny, 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: some funny foible of their personality, and there's that moment, 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: there's that awful little moment where there's kind of a 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: pause after somebody says some some teasing joke and then 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: you realize like, oh no, suddenly it has gotten serious. 12 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I mean it's especially if it it's a 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: multi person group and and there's a bit of piling 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: on occurring. They'll be there, I've seen this, this happened, 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: where they'll they'll be a breaking point where the person 16 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: has had an enough and and and you realize, oh, no, 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: lines have been crossed, and now this person who is 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: gonna leave and we're gonna have to resolve this uh 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: via emails later. Uh yeah. And it's a ter it's 20 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: a terrible feeling because things have spiraled out of control. 21 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: Something that was playful and um and just part of 22 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: hanging out has now become a divisive email the best 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: place to work out tense social disputes. Well sometimes sometimes 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: it depends. I mean, I guess it depends on what 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: role one had in the in the breakdown. I've been 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to to not be like at the epicenter 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: of the of the breakdown generally, so um email tends 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: to suffice for me. You know, you never have to 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: worry that when you type a smiley emoji that will 30 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: look like a fake smile. When you actually smile at somebody, 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: you always gotta worry like does this look real? Is 32 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: my face moving? Right? You just have to use the 33 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: authentic smiling emoji, not the inauthentic one. You know, it's 34 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: all on the micro expressions of the emoji. What's the 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: authentic one that's like colon and clothes brackets? Oh no, 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the ones that actually like the little 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: yellow face with the smile, like you'll know what when 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: you see it. But is everyone can realize at this point, 39 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about teasing today on the show, and teasing 40 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: is weird territory to try and figure out deceptively, so really, um, 41 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: for many of us looking back on our childhoods, it's 42 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: it makes up some of our worst memories of social interaction. 43 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: And as a as a parent, I have a lot 44 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: of apprehension about it, you know, regarding my own child, 45 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: the inevitable struggles that he's gonna gonna face. And at 46 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: the same time, there's this weird cult of the tease 47 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: that is often difficult to understand. We see teasing in 48 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: our media, and it's sometimes presented as in a fun 49 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: comical light. We also see adults for whom teasing is 50 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 1: a standard part of their interactions, not fighting with each other, 51 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: but but just picking in various ways that it's it 52 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: seems like they're just terms of endearments, joking, benign criticism. Yeah, 53 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: and it and uh. It's often a case where I 54 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: look at it and I realized, well, this is clearly 55 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: part of their social dynamic. It wouldn't necessarily work in 56 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: my social dynamic. But I guess it's okay. Uh. We 57 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: see it factor into courtship as well, which also has 58 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: a way of of seeming weird and sour at times 59 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: of an outside perspective. Right. Well, I mean there's there's 60 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: two very different ways it can take place. There's a 61 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: kind you can see, a kind of friendly, sweet teasing 62 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: that takes place between people in a courtship relationship. And 63 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: then there's like the pickup artist version of it, where 64 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: somebody's clearly like making a power play. Right. And then 65 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: likewise we also see this this space, this sort of 66 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: ambiguous space where playful teasing gives over to what is 67 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: clearly something based in hate and abuse name calling uh 68 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: that occurs among children and even among adults. Obviously even 69 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: at the highest levels of government, you see name calling 70 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: used in a in a hurtful fashion. So if you start, 71 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: if you start picking out and I imagine a lot 72 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: of your doing this as well, thinking of all the 73 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: varying levels of teasing that are going on in your 74 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: immediate environment and um in politics and the media, etcetera. 75 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: On the street as you're driving your car and listen 76 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: to this podcast. You know, it's enough to make you 77 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: wonder if if we're just nothing more than just cruel 78 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: apes jockeying for social position, uh, And it's any wonder 79 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: that we managed to emerge from these social interactions with 80 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: self esteem and respect for our fellow humans. But part 81 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: of the issue here is that while all forms of 82 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: teasing share common features, there are at least three distinctive 83 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: forms of teasing that are often signal, that are often 84 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: singled out and definitely deserve mention here. Okay, well, what 85 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: would those forms be? All right? Well, the first is 86 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: pretty obvious, and that is that is the hurtful teasing. 87 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: And I think it's one of those things where we 88 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: all we all know it when we see it, right 89 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: or hear it. This is obviously the domain of bullying 90 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: and harassment, and yet at the same time it's the 91 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: sort of teasing you might see in a celebrity post 92 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: or some of you are more viciously charged a humor 93 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: or political humor. I guess you could also say it's 94 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: maybe the domain of the jester, the fool, and the clown. 95 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: Uh and important These are important roles throughout human history. 96 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, I mean I might argue that the 97 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: fool in the Shakespearean sense requires its own category here, 98 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: because the fool has a lot of power and freedom, 99 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: and that's important power and freedom. Like they're the only 100 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: member of the lower classes who can point out the 101 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: flaws of the monarchs and the upper classes and get 102 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: away with it. There's something about the ridiculousness of the 103 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: fool that allows a critique of power that might result 104 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: in a beheading if you made the same critique in 105 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: a serious tone. And likewise, a king who beheads a 106 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: jester every week is a terrible king. They look weak. Yeah, 107 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: it makes the king look foolish if the king overreacts 108 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: to a to a comical critique, right, I think you're 109 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: pointing Joffrey from Game of Thrones is this type of 110 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: ruler where you realize how he's terrible. He's totally incompetent. 111 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: Look how thin Skinndy is against Uh, the humorous criticism 112 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: of the the court fool. Well, it codes so easily 113 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: for us. I mean, one of the clearest signs of 114 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: a toxic personality is somebody who's unable to accept criticism 115 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: and even benign criticism, or to be the butt of 116 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: a joke. You know, somebody who cannot tolerate that, especially 117 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: because of the positive role that teasing plays in our culture. 118 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much teasing that is not hurtful, hateful. 119 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: I mean it is a constant feature of conversation between friends, 120 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: between couples, between family members, between educators and the people 121 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: they educate. Teasing, you know, there's like a sweet, benign 122 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: form of teasing that's absolutely essential to these relationships. You know. 123 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: I do have to add one more thing about the 124 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: gesture first, though, and there is there is this this 125 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: curious aspect of the dying ammic you see with kind 126 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: of a classic gesture situation, but also in modern political humor, 127 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: there are two extremes that are both equally well, maybe 128 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: not equally, but they're both cringe worthy. Certainly when the king, 129 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: the rule or the politician, whoever the celebrity is too 130 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: thin skinned to let humorous bashing go where they have 131 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: to call out, say, you know an episode of Saturday 132 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: Night Live, right, if you made a joke about me, 133 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: how dare you right? Yeah? That is is cringeworthy and awful. 134 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: But on the same hand, and this is something that 135 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: I believe it was pointed out on an episode of 136 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast, there's also this danger in 137 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: what happens when the king says, yeah, this gesture guys, great, 138 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to hang out with him and do a 139 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: skit with him, or or yeah, that's Saturday Night Life 140 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: skit is funny. I'm gonna appear on that Saturday Night 141 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: Life skit with the person doing an impression of me. 142 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: There can be uh, too much protection of one's dignity 143 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: is a bad sign, but too much surrender of one's 144 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: dignity also looks kind of bad. Like you got to 145 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: find the middle ground. You want the ruler that that 146 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: ultimately has very little to do with the gesture and 147 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: doesn't politely laughs perhaps but leaves it at that. I 148 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about. Like when presidential candidates 149 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: go on SNL, that's always like, I don't know, it's 150 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: just always terrible. Yeah. But one of the points that 151 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,559 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell made in his show is that it takes 152 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: the punch out of the political humor, like you managed 153 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: in a way. It's like it's a genius move I 154 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: guess for the politician, because you have you have killed 155 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: the humorous skit. You have you have killed the power 156 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: of the humor in a way that you could never 157 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: do by attacking it. Well, yeah, I guess it doesn't 158 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: make you look great, but it also is a type 159 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: of defense mechanism. It undercuts any truly biting criticism that's 160 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: hidden there in the in the comedy. If you go 161 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: on stage with the comedian. Yes, oh, but before we 162 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: were talking about the jester, we were we were about 163 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: to get into playful teasing. You know, the sweet form 164 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 1: of teasing, right, And obviously there's a line between hurtful 165 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,479 Speaker 1: and and u and playful teasing good luck finding, especially 166 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: with people you're maybe not that familiar with. But yeah, 167 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: especially in close relationships, you tend to see these you know, 168 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: you see in jokes and you see established safe zones 169 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: for playful teasing. Uh. For instance, if my wife teases 170 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: me about some nerdy hobby of mine, uh, it's it's 171 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: really more of a form, more of a term of endearment. 172 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: Or if she teases me about liking robot music, like 173 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: like really robotic sounding electronic music, and uh and teasing 174 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: me about how awful it sounds. Uh like like this 175 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: is that this feels good when we're doing it. I 176 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: don't feel hurt or defensive about you know, my my 177 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: love of dungeons and dragons, or or or my miniatures 178 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: painting miniatures, or yeah, or my affinity for the music 179 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: of autech or that sort of thing. Yeah, I think 180 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: almost all good romantic relationships include an element of teasing. 181 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: I don't, you know. I don't want to be overly general. 182 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: So maybe some people people make it work in all 183 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: kinds of ways, but I rarely see what seems like 184 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: a happy couple that doesn't tease one another, right, I mean, 185 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: it seems like you do. And this is something we're 186 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: going to return to throughout this episode, this idea that 187 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: that teasing it is, is an opportunity for bond forming 188 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: and the establishment and the maintaining of bonds. And but 189 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: obviously you need a safe place for the teasing. Just 190 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: you know, all of us, I think we're going to have, 191 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: unless we are some sort of like in human politician type, 192 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, we're going to have those areas that we 193 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: are cool being teased about in areas that we're less 194 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: comfortable being teased about. You know, thinking about several of 195 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: the areas that that teasing functions in our our social interactions, 196 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: one of which is sort of reminding people of hierarchies 197 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: or establishing hierarchies. That it does something of enforcing a 198 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: pecking order. Number two is maybe like establishing a criticism 199 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: of somebody's behavior. And number three is allowing bonding. Put 200 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: these three things together, and it seems like a key 201 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: place where teasing should come into play is education, right, 202 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: because that's a place where you need a hierarchy between 203 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: teacher and student. You want to teach lessons and you 204 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: also want to have a good relationship. That's right. So 205 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: this brings us to this third area of teasing, educative teasing, 206 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: and this pops up in areas that you wouldn't quite 207 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: expect it as, as we'll discuss a little later. One 208 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: example is that is that of a frat boys giving 209 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: each other nicknames based on, you know, various bone headed 210 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: things they've done. Uh And and this can be viewed 211 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: as a way of of educating, of laying down various 212 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: um moral rules or or social expectations. Right, you teasing, 213 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: you might get nicknamed like, I don't know, toilet head 214 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: because you fell asleep with your head in the toilet, right, 215 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: And the idea is, don't do that. Don't drink so 216 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: much that you sleep in the toilet. But then again, 217 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: one of the things I noticed about that kind of 218 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,359 Speaker 1: teasing is that toilet head might originally be applied as 219 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: a sort of like moral injunction. But that toilet Head 220 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: make may well come to identify with the nickname and say, 221 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: that's right, that's who I am. I am toilet Head forevermore, 222 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: and I will embrace it. Yeah. Now, some anthropologists point 223 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: to specific traditions of educated teasing between parents and children 224 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: in various Indigenous American um cultures, and the idea here 225 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: is that it's a form of teasing that can work 226 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: better to impart knowledge of social rules and emotionally instilled ideas. However, 227 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: we we didn't really focus on any of that for 228 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: this research, but I just want to let everyone know 229 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: that that that is an area of study. Now, as 230 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: far as these three terms for types of teasing go, 231 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: I I feel like there's some difficulty in how we 232 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: use terms here because I admit that I would typically 233 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: reserve the word teasing for the more benign or playful 234 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: forms what we were calling hurtful teasing, the kind that's 235 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: actually cruel and mean spirited. I would not usually call teasing. 236 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: I'd probably call it bullying or harassment or something. Um though. 237 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: It's what what this highlights is that the line between 238 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: playful teasing and hurtful bullying is not always clear. It's 239 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: not always clear to the person doing it. It's always 240 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: not always clear to the person receiving it. What sometimes 241 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: ment is benign or playful by the teaser can feel 242 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: like bullying to the teaz and sometimes more benign or 243 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: playful forms of teasing. I bet you've been there for this. 244 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: I think we sort of talked about it at the beginning. 245 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: It starts off as a friendly and playful session of 246 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: ribbing that somehow catches this terrible momentum. I don't know 247 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: what causes it, but that momentum it edges into harder 248 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: and meaner stuff as it escalates, and it's this enormously 249 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: painful and uncomfortable thing to witness, And looking back, I 250 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: can remember instances of this in my life where I 251 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: watch something like this happened to somebody else, and in retrospect, 252 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: like I wish I'd found a way to step in 253 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: in the moment and stop it. But it's so much 254 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: easier to to to feel that kind of policing authority 255 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: in retrospect in the moment, to step in like that 256 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: into clear teasing. To have gone too far requires you 257 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: to take this major risk. It feels like you're violating 258 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: a taboo, you're making it weird, you know, you know 259 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: about making it weird, right, um, And in the moment 260 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: you're never really sure if you've like misread some kind 261 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: of unspoken set of cues. Maybe everything is actually okay, 262 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: and you're the one who's making people feel bad by 263 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: getting serious from out of nowhere. It can be a 264 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: really difficult and complicated uh dance to to navigate. All right, 265 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: on that note, we're gonna take a quick break and 266 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: when we come back, we're gonna we're gonna really get 267 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: into the question of teasing and what purpose it truly serves. 268 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: Thank thank thank Alright, we're back. So one of the 269 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: big names that comes up in teasing resear is that 270 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: of psychiatry and psychology researcher Dr Keltner, who has written 271 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: on this, researched on this, and one of the big 272 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: pieces that has often circulated is a two thousand and 273 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: eight New York Times piece titled in Defensive Teasing. Uh. 274 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: And he also directs the Berkeley Social Interaction Lab. So 275 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: this is like right in his uh, his area of focus. Yeah, 276 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: Keltner makes an interesting point, which is that a lot 277 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: of our social conventions in the modern age, I think 278 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: are centered around trying to make social interactions more safe, 279 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: which in a way is a good thing. Right. We 280 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: we all know how destructive and terrible bullying can be. 281 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: We've all seen the kind of teasing in a relationship. 282 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: And you know, somebody's somebody's got a new boyfriend and 283 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: he's teasing her, but he's like going a little hard. 284 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: It doesn't quite seem so sweet. And when you think 285 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: about stuff like that, it can be very easy to 286 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: start to to start to view teasing is this really 287 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: negative thing. It's this this cruel, malicious force that permeates 288 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: our culture and and make you want to do things 289 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: to eliminate it. Right, Well, how can we get people 290 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: to not act like this? But I feel like teasing 291 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: is a situation where you really don't want to throw 292 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: the baby out with the bathwater. Well you don't, but 293 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: you you want to protect the baby. That's the thing 294 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: I mean. Throughout this episode, I kept coming I keep 295 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: coming back to um, my own son, and I just 296 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: want to protect him so much from these things. At 297 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: the same time, I realized I can't protect him there 298 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: from everything. I can't just chattow him through school and 299 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, feed him excellent, you know, comebacks. Uh, anytime 300 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: anybody is is trying to tease him, he's going to 301 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: be teased. It's it's inevitable, and he it's probably inevitable 302 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: to that to engage in teasing. Um. But at the 303 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: same time, it is hard for me to just really 304 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: get behind everything Kelton is saying about just the importance 305 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: of teasing, like, I still my impulse to protect is 306 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: too strong. Well, I mean, I think the point he 307 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: would be making is that the good kind of teasing 308 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: is not actually hurtful, it's not actually something that needs 309 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: to be protected. And he is not advocating that that 310 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: bullying should be permitted. It's very clear about that. But 311 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: but but he does make this strong, strong case that 312 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 1: that teasing is an essential part of our social interactions, 313 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: and in fact, he points out that the teasing is 314 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: pervasive in the animal world. Right now, we generally think 315 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: of teasing as you know, as a verbal phenomenon, right 316 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: and I guess you do have to think of of 317 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: human teasing as as a lot of things with humans 318 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: happens to be you think of it as a linguistic 319 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: and cultural complication of an impulse that may also be 320 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: found within uh language less animals, and so, for instance, 321 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: Keltner says, quote, the centrality of teasing in our social 322 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: evolution is suggests by just how pervasive teasing is in 323 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: the animal world. Younger monkeys pull the tales of older monkeys. 324 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: African hunting dogs jump all over one another, much like 325 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: pad slapping joking football players moments before kickoff. In every 326 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: corner of the world, human adults play peekaboo games to 327 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: stir a sulking child. Children as early as age one 328 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: mimic nearby adults and teenagers prod one another to gauge 329 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: romantic interest. In rejecting teasing, we may be losing something 330 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: vital and necessary to our identity as the most playful 331 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: of species. I mean, I think I'm pretty on board 332 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: with his message there. It's the the difficulty comes in 333 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 1: our uncertainty about recognizing the line between benign teasing and 334 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: hurtful teasing. And and I think it's because there's that ambiguity, 335 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: because there's always the danger that you you're not necessarily 336 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: going to be able to recognize immediately the difference between 337 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: one or the other. It's exactly the same problem. I 338 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: was mentioning a minute go where you like, I think 339 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: back on a time you saw somebody getting teased and 340 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: it went over the line, but you didn't stop it. Um, 341 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: it's because of that ambiguity, like you didn't know if 342 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: you should step in or not. And that ambiguity makes 343 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: us uncomfortable because we know teasing this over the line 344 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: is wrong, but you can't always see the line in 345 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: the moment. It would be interesting to hear from from 346 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: educators out there who are listening to the show on this, 347 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: because it does make one think that the message should 348 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: not be hey, kids, don't tease one another. It should 349 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: maybe be more. Here areas where it is not cool 350 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: to tease, you know, like it's not cool to tease 351 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: someone about their physical appearance or the characters or stereotypes, etcetera. Uh, 352 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: but various behavioral teasing. I don't know how, I mean, 353 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: how do you end up teaching such nuance? Maybe you 354 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, you can't. It has to generate 355 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: via the social interactions. Here's something I would say, Um, well, 356 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: with a with a big exception for we can talk 357 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: about the jester in a second, with a big exception 358 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: for the jester. Maybe one thing is that you shouldn't 359 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: tease somebody unless you like them and they know you 360 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: like them. That's true, because otherwise, if the if the 361 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: existing social dynamic is is is anything different, than you 362 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: are perhaps not engaging in pure teasing. No, I mean, 363 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: then it becomes bullying. When you tease somebody you don't 364 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: even like her respect, obviously you're you're going to be 365 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: tempted to edge over into some form of cruelty. Now, 366 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: speaking of cruelty, we have to think again of of kings, 367 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: and of course the jester. Keltner points out then that 368 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: in the tradition of the court jester, you could say 369 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: teasing is quote a playful, provocative mode of commentary. Yeah, 370 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: I think that's right. I mean, as Touchstone said in 371 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: Shakespeare's as you Like It quote, the fool don't think 372 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to 373 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: be a fool. You know, that's hundreds of years before 374 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: all the modern research on illusory confidence and dunning Krueger 375 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: and all that. I think this reveals that a key 376 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: social good of even harder edged thing is that when 377 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: it's properly applied, it can be kind of a leveling 378 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: tool like it knocks down the wickerman of big egos 379 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: and and pops the balloons of unearned self confidence that 380 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: we see so often in our highest levels of leadership. 381 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: But of course, just as often it's applied the other way, 382 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: and in a very bad, destructive way. It gets applied 383 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: from the top down by the inflated ego against the 384 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: less empowered. I guess as sort of like a hierarchy 385 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: enforcement mechanism, but the bottom up form, the jester driven form. 386 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: I think that's a that leveling instinct is a useful 387 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: social good and a form of freedom. Teasing is an 388 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: arena that allows us to experiment with language, with personality 389 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: and relationships. It's sort of an open ended game that 390 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: we can use to manage relationships and learn about each other. Now, 391 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: Culton A. Keltner also turns to the work of linguistic 392 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: anthropologist Penelope Brown and cognitive anthropologist Stephen Levinson, who I 393 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: believe we've we've touched on both of their work before 394 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: on the podcast, but their work that he's referencing here 395 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: is more specifically aligned with the study of politeness. But 396 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: of interest here is the their focus on two forms 397 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: of communication like basically breaking down communication into two forms 398 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: that we're talking mostly about linguistic communication here, but on 399 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: the on record communication and off record communication. Okay, so 400 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: tell me the difference. Okay, So on record communication is 401 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: just literal direct speech. You take it literally. It's meant 402 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: meant to be taken literally. It's clear, and it's direct. 403 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: This is the kind of speech you would want from 404 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: your doctor or your lawyer or whatever. Right if you 405 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: if someone were to come up to you on the 406 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: street and uh and say, hey, you've got something on 407 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 1: your face? Um, like that's clear, Like, hey, I think 408 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: there's some food on your face. You need you might 409 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: want to get that off. Like they're they're not playing around. 410 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: They're just letting you know. It might be socially awkward, 411 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: but they are being direct in their communication. They're they're 412 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: not they're not joking, they're not being vague about it. 413 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: Off the record is veiled meeting metaphor alternative meaning. So 414 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: this if someone were to come up on your street 415 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: and be like, hey, um, you got a little something 416 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: right there. Hey, if you you know, if they were 417 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: kind of kind of beat around the bush a little bit, 418 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: you know, you might want to take a look in 419 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: a mirror bro right, Yeah, that kind of thing where 420 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: it can it's off the record, and it can be 421 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: in a way that is meant to, uh to to 422 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: make the the the message softer, or it can go 423 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: the reverse, right, it can, it can make it harder. 424 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: You could be straight up mocking somebody on the street 425 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: for the little bit of lunch they still have, you know, 426 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: caught in their beard. Yeah, it seems the key to 427 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: the off record communication is is some form of ambiguity. 428 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: And one reason is that off record communication is sometimes risky, right, 429 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: people want deniability if their message is not well received. 430 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: Off record communication is the kind of communication where you 431 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: can say I was just kidding. On record communication, you 432 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: cannot plausibly say I was just kidding. And you've all 433 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: been there when somebody delivered on record communication and then 434 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: tried to I was just kidding afterwards. It doesn't work. 435 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: There's no there's generally no room for for retreat except 436 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: to like physically retreat. So the point here is that 437 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: in modern human interactions, you don't always want to be direct. 438 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,959 Speaker 1: On record communication doesn't always work for the same reasons 439 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: that it's not practical to always be truthful. White lies 440 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: are sometimes required or lies of emission. Uh, And so 441 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: it's it's sometimes necessary to communicate via off record communication 442 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: to say something and signal some other meaning, as annoying 443 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: as it can be at times. Obviously, we can all 444 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: think too situations where someone is not direct with us 445 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: and we wish they were direct. Oh yeah, I mean 446 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: pretty much everything we're talking about today that has a 447 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: possible good social good, you know, useful social role also 448 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: can be used for evil. I mean, every shifty, dishonest 449 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: guy you know uses a lot of off record communication 450 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: and always wants to be able to kind of weazle 451 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: around about what he said or what he meant. And 452 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: so Kellner argues that teasing is quote, just such an 453 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: act of off record communication. Provocative commentary is shrouded in 454 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: linguistic acts called off record markers that suggests that commentary 455 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 1: should not be taken literally. So there's some sort of 456 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: a uh, there's some sort of a wink there, right, 457 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: But I don't think this should cause us to sort, uh, 458 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: communication into like on record which is important, and off record, 459 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: which is not important. Yeah, I mean, to your point, 460 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: it may be very important, It just might be socially 461 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: delicate or you don't want to overstep the boundaries of 462 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: your established relationship with someone, and it may be essential 463 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: to to to to to to provide that wink to 464 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: let them know via you know, some sort of hand 465 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: signal or some alteration of your voice, or even the 466 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: use of rhyme or the mimicking of of of some 467 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: other individual. It could be key to letting them know. 468 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: I'm I'm using off record communication here, even even though 469 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: what I'm about to tell you is important. Well, yeah, 470 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: it on record communication and off record communication. I would say, 471 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: our respectively analogous to work and play, and play is 472 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: very important. Play is where we learn how to work. Ultimately, 473 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: it allows us to send messages in a in a 474 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: masked way, or at least a kind of like a 475 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: lubricated way. Socially. Uh. This this may be a terrible example, 476 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: but but one that I have observed before. If you've 477 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: ever seen, say, an individual come out of a public 478 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: restroom and uh, and they say, who, do not go 479 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: in there. We'll give you some sort of like joking warning, 480 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: that's a good one. Maybe it tends it are it Definitely, 481 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: I would say, definitely works better than if they were 482 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: to look you square in the eyes and say do 483 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: not go in there. Though that's sort of like five minutes, 484 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, like then that's self deprecating. Yeah, but it's 485 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: also it's like awkward for both parties. But if but 486 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: if there's a joke there, like then it's kind of 487 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: like I'm kind of making fun of myself and I'm 488 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: also kind of making fun of fun of you. But 489 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: I'm also providing definite information that you should be aware 490 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: of regarding the the the aromatic state of this bathroom 491 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: you're about to enter. Well to to incorporate teasing, I 492 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: can see how in that situation, teasing if somebody else 493 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 1: could actually be used to diffuse tension and make them 494 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: feel less bad. So like say you have to go 495 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: into a bathroom after somebody else and it smells bad, 496 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: and the other person knows that they've been in there, 497 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: and you know they're probably feeling embarrassed. You might be 498 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: able to say something that's like a tease of them 499 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: that indicates that they shouldn't actually be you know, you 500 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: can both laugh about it, which actually feels better than 501 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: just leaving it, leaving it unsaid on the person feeling 502 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: awkward and embarrassed. Though I'm not necessarily advocating making fun 503 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: of people's body smells. You've got to judge the situation 504 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: case by case, Keltner says. Quote, in teasing, we become actors, 505 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: taking on playful identities to manage the inevitable conflicts of 506 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: living in social group. Which is as kind of crude 507 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: as this example we just laid out, is it? I 508 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: mean it that is an example of what we're talking 509 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: about here. I mean that is the inevitable conflict of 510 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: living in social groups, of going to restaurants and sharing restrooms. 511 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: And they also may allow us Kelton argues, to engage 512 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: in the sort of social contest that may prove physical 513 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: and deadly in other species. And indeed, we see plenty 514 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: of non human species that have evolved drama dramatized status 515 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: contests that don't involve combat, you know, uh, some sort 516 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: of like feathery display or or even a display of 517 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: something that might otherwise be used for for combat. But 518 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: some mean, some means of of engaging in social contest 519 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't actually require two individuals to to fight until 520 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: one backs off. Yeah, I don't know if this is 521 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: the kind I would call teasing. I guess there might 522 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: be elements you call this gets up against when exactly 523 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: I would actually use the word again, But it's clearly yeah, 524 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: it's clearly part of human culture that we use words 525 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: and like insults and humor and stuff like that to 526 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: manage hierarchy navigation. You're trying to take down the person 527 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: above you, and you can do it with a witty comment. 528 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: But stuff like that isn't always isn't always in this playful, 529 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: sweet realm of teasing, I mean that kind of stuff 530 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 1: can actually be pretty biting, right, But but the argument 531 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: here is that even in playful teasing, there is this 532 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: potential for uh, for establishment of a pecking order. And 533 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: that's just another way that teasing and requires us to 534 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: walk a fine line, right uh, enhancing social connection while 535 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: also establishing a pecking order. Like it it's sounds it's 536 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: one of those things that when you when you boil 537 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: it down, um, like imagine like setting out to do 538 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: that consciously, Like, all right, I've got a I need 539 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: to walk into the office today. I needed I need 540 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: to tear everybody down just the appropriate amount so that 541 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: we all feel a little closer, but also that it's 542 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: so that everybody thinks that I'm superior or that I 543 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: of the appropriate place in the social dynamics of the 544 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: office you're describing management strategy. Probably probably so, No, no, no, 545 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: that's not fair. But yeah, I mean I unfortunately, I 546 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: think there are some people who are that deliberate and 547 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: that calculating about the kind of stuff they say in 548 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: a workplace. They're not just talking to you about whatever 549 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: they're thinking about. They're making a comment to you in 550 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: front of an audience based on how it will benefit them. 551 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: Now we mentioned frat frat brothers earlier, Keltner observed that 552 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: among frat brothers, in one study, teasing nicknames seemed to 553 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: be quote more morality plays based on misdeeds that they 554 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: were encouraged to move beyond, and among teens, teasing as 555 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: a vital part of a flirtation, a way of testing 556 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: out others and looking for genuine signs of interest. Yeah, 557 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: And as I mentioned earlier, I mean, I feel like 558 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: this can easily go two ways. There is a very 559 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: sweet kind of teasing that takes that takes place in courtship, 560 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: and then there's definitely a gross form of it that's 561 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: some kind of so shull leverage trick, right, and then 562 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: there's also something problematic too, about like, if you established 563 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: this rule that like, oh, they're teasing you because they 564 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: like you like, then that that and that may be 565 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: the case, I mean that these but if you but 566 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: then he goes too far. If you established it, then 567 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: is this excuse for for problematic teasing? Right, like, oh, 568 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: that's just boys being boys or girls being girls? Then 569 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, is it Are we using that to cover 570 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: up something that should be um policed in some fashion? Well? 571 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: Often we are. This is yet another case where it 572 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: would be great if we could always clearly see what 573 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: the line is and people's discomfort comes in because sometimes 574 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: it's not clear where the line is. Now. On the 575 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: subject of of teasing among committed partners, uh, he points 576 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: out that there is a language to it, you know, 577 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: they're all these little in jokes, and he points to 578 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: two studies that have shown that married couples with a 579 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: rich vocabulary of you know, various teasing nicknames and ends 580 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: of remulate insults, they tend to be happier and more satisfied. 581 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: And that's the sweet kind. Yeah. And he also adds 582 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: that it may help diffuse arguments over really explosive issues 583 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: and that the terminology of the teasing as well as 584 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: often drawn from the same metaphors we use for for love. 585 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: They have to do, for instance, with with food or 586 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: small animals, like referring to somebody as like a dumpling 587 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: or a muffin or something like that, or a or 588 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: a bunny. Yes, though apparently it does depend on the language. Here, 589 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: I remember speaking with an individual of Thaie descent and 590 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: about how the use of pig or piggy or you know, 591 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: it's thie equivalent was a term of endearment, especially for 592 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: young children, whereas in English that the term maybe has 593 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: a has a bit more like spite to it, if 594 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: you're gonna call someone a pick or a piggy. So 595 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: a term of endeuarment in one language or culture is 596 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: not necessarily going to translate equally into another language. Oh 597 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: but I can actually see, like even in English, a 598 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: great novel where you establish it character's relationship, what we're 599 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: like a wife calls her husband little piggy or something 600 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: that seems that that's good, that's good character right there. Yeah. Now, 601 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: there's a ton of material out there on teasing, and 602 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: we can't possibly touch on all of it here today. 603 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: After all, it does seem to be a major aspect 604 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: of human social dynamics, and the legacy of childhood teasing 605 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: seems to be quite long. A lot of studies look 606 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: at childhood teasing and and the ramifications of it for adults. Yeah, 607 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: a lot of what I saw was just study after 608 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: study looking at whether child whether children perceived teasing as 609 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: harmful or not, and generally they did. Now, one of 610 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: one of the problems here is that it does come 611 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: down to that perception. How is the instance of teasing 612 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: perceived and and and here we see this this this 613 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: this case where an instance of teasing might well be 614 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: perceived by one party as being played well and another 615 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: party as being harmful. I mean, going back to our 616 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: initial example. You know, in in like group social dynamics, 617 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: where someone goes over the line, I mean most of 618 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: the most of the cases, and the person is not 619 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: thinking I'm going over the line, I'm going for it, 620 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go for the hurt point. Here, well, sometimes 621 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: they are, I mean, there there are clearly different categories here. 622 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: There's like, very often teasing is going to be perceived 623 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: as good natured by the person doing the teasing and 624 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: as mean and hurtful by the person receiving the teasing, 625 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: but also there there are two different versions of what's 626 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: going on in the perpetrator's mind. You've definitely seen cases 627 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: where somebody who genuinely meant no harm accidentally hurts somebody's 628 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: feelings with teasing. And then you see cases where people 629 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: try to cover their butts afterwards, like clearly they let 630 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: some you know, hurtful inclinations reveal itself too much. They 631 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: were being mean, but then afterwards they can be they 632 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: can retreat. It's off record communication, so they can be like, oh, 633 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: I was just kidding. I didn't mean any harm, don't 634 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, don't get upset. I'm I didn't mean to 635 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: hurt your feelings, but they kind of did, right, Yeah, 636 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: I was looking at a paper here, two thousand paper 637 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: titled I Was Only kidding Victims and Perpetrators Perceptions of 638 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: Teasing by Robin M. Kowowski, and he points out that 639 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: via seventy two person study, I found that perspectives might 640 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: reflect the views of perpetrators and victims. The teaser remembers 641 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: it more as fun and focused on behavior, and the 642 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: person being teased remembers it more as hurtful and potentially 643 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 1: focusing on their appearance. Yeah, that's another thing. So one 644 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 1: area in which teasing I think is just never acceptable. 645 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you just never want to go there is 646 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: teasing about innate characteristics, not not like about what somebody 647 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: just did, but about what they look like about their body, 648 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: about fundamental personality issues. It comes back to like the 649 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: educative aspect of teasing, like you can you if it's 650 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: if it's if there's something educative about it, it's like 651 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: you should be doing this differently, where you should have 652 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: done this differently. But I mean, you know, people for 653 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: the for the vast most part, cannot do anything about 654 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: their their physical appearance, you know. But but I've I'm 655 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: sure you've seen this where people tease somebody and it 656 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: edges into teasing about innate characteristics, and when they get 657 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: called out, they try to retreat to to like pretending 658 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: they were just reacting to behavior or something. No, no, no, no, 659 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: I didn't mean that. I meant this other thing. Yeah, 660 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: Or they're kind of like, oh, I'm sorry, I thought 661 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: we were just being mean, and so I was going 662 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 1: to be mean too. I didn't realize that we were 663 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: being playful or that we were critiquing things they had 664 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: choices about. Now, this this leads me to a question 665 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: that I've I've had in my mind for a little 666 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: while here, and that is, do certain people invite more 667 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: playful and potentially hurtful teasing than others? And if so, 668 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: what are the factors? So I've observed this in social 669 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: situations in the past, I'm sure a number of our 670 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: listeners have as well. In social dynamics, some individuals seem 671 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: to attract more teasing attention than others. And why is that? 672 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: I think based on some of what we've discussed here 673 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: so far, we could we could really point to various 674 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: causes apparent social status, attractiveness and desirability, but also difference 675 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: outside or status, really any area that would seem to invite, 676 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: invite off the record linguistic attention right. Well, because teasing 677 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: has so many different uses and meanings, there are a 678 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: lot of different ways that it can be attracted. I mean, 679 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: one thing that you can see is that obviously in 680 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: hurtful teasing, you know, the kind of cruel the thing 681 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: I wouldn't usually call teasing cruel, mean spirited bullying. I 682 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: think the people who attract that are people who look 683 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: like easy targets, people who are lower status in the 684 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: community where they're being teased, people who have less power 685 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: to respond. I mean, bullies pick on people they perceived 686 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: to have a weakness. Now, when it comes to the 687 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: jester type of teasing, I think obviously they're the people 688 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: who are going to be attracting it, are going to 689 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: be prominent, high status people. And high status people also 690 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: tend to invite the different kind of teasing that's not 691 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: even really teasing. But Keltner talked about it in this 692 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 1: article when he talked about how frat brothers give each 693 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: other nicknames. There's a kind of teasing as praise that 694 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: frat pledges show towards the senior brothers of the fraternity. 695 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: Uh So it's structured like teasing, but it's really more 696 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 1: of a veiled compliment. Do you know what I'm talking about. 697 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen this before, where it like people 698 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: will be obsequious by pretending to rib somebody above them, 699 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: but in a way that's not actually for anything bad 700 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: they did, but really is more for something good about them. Yeah. Yeah, 701 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: you do see examples of this, uh from time to time, 702 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: almost kind of getting into the idea of like hot 703 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: shaming somebody, right, like making fun of them for being attractive, 704 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: or making fun of them for being successful or something 705 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: of that in that regard. I mean, obviously, in the 706 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: fraternity context, a lot of this is going to be 707 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: like pretending to rib an older frat brother for his 708 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: you know, drinking ability, or his sexual prowess or something. Uh, 709 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: it's not really in that context perceived as an insult, 710 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: but they structure it like one. It's a strange phenomenon. 711 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: But but to come back to other people who seem 712 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: to invite I think one thing that is common to 713 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: most forms of more barbed teasing is that it's invited 714 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: by people who do not appear to have a very 715 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: well developed sense of humor, or people who appear to 716 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: take themselves very seriously. I'm sure you've observed this, right, Robert. Yes, 717 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: I've definitely seen this implay, you know, in various work 718 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: environments over over the years, where the person who takes 719 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: themselves very seriously just it almost requires you to to 720 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: take them down to pay, not if they can't laugh 721 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: at themselves. I mean, and this is something that's not 722 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: necessarily going to take place like face to face obviously, 723 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: Like like if you have a say, you have a 724 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: boss that is just really self involved, you you cannot 725 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: help but make fun of them with a coworker. You know, 726 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: regardless of if you if you ever do anything or 727 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: say anything that you know that that that individual is 728 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: ever gonna hear, you still have to at least joke 729 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: about them, uh with your other coworkers. Right, And as 730 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: Keltner points out, the dynamics of teasing tend to change 731 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: dramatically around eleven or twelve, around that that kind of age, 732 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: which is about the age that he says kids most 733 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: often learn to hold contradictory ideas about the world in 734 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 1: their head at the same time these you know, that's 735 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: the the idea of negative capability, the thing that allows 736 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: the ironic stance, and this allows them to see subtleties 737 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: of teasing and participate in it, especially on the receiving end, 738 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: in a more graceful way, without interpreting all of it 739 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: as bullying and bad. You know. That's one big difference 740 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 1: is that when you're an adult, it becomes you learn 741 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: how to take a joke usually, you know, like you 742 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: learn how to be the butt of a of a 743 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: good natured piece of criticism. I mean, as long as 744 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: it's not like really cruel, uh, to be the butt 745 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: of a good natured piece of criticism or or teasing 746 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: and to not get too upset about it. But kids 747 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: don't have this ability. They are not good at this 748 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: at all. Kids take themselves very seriously. All right. Well, 749 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take one more break, 750 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we will discuss teasing U 751 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,919 Speaker 1: in bonding. Thank thank you, thank you. Alright, we're back. 752 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: So one of the funny things I discovered in this 753 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: episode is there's this entire academic journal called Discourse Studies, 754 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: all all kinds of research about the ways people communicate. 755 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: And they have this amazing way of like mapping out 756 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: conversations in a way that includes all this information about 757 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 1: tone and about gestures and laughter and and how different 758 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: kinds of laughter sounded. It looks like computer code. It's 759 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: like conversations translated into cobal. You should look this up 760 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: if you get a chance. It's it's pretty interesting. Um. 761 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: But I was just looking at one study from Discourse 762 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: Studies in that was published this year in ten called 763 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: getting to Know You Teasing as an Invitation to intimacy 764 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: in initial interactions by Michael Hall and Danielle pill at 765 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: Shore and so that they write about how before the study, 766 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: teasing was often assumed to take place mostly or exclusively 767 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: between people who have previously who have previous relationships, who 768 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: have some degree of intimacy. But this article examined conversations 769 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,879 Speaker 1: between unfamiliar people who were becoming acquainted, and I thought 770 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 1: this was interesting. They found that teasing does play a role, uh, 771 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,359 Speaker 1: and the role it seems to play in this kind 772 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: of conversation and the getting to know you conversation is 773 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: a sort of experiment, is testing the new acquaint sense, 774 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: is willingness to become more intimate, because I definitely know 775 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: this feeling like you're at a party or whatever, you know, 776 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: any place you've got to meet new people, and you're 777 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: talking to somebody new for the first time, and for 778 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: a while in that first conversation, you don't know if 779 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: this conversation will sort of escalate into a relationship and 780 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: a point of familiarity where you might start to think 781 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: of this person as a friend, or if you're just 782 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: exchanging pleasantries until you can move on, right, Yeah, So 783 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: you never know. Some sometimes you think it's gonna go 784 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: one way, and it goes to the other. And this 785 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: study found that teasing plays an important role in this 786 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: and getting to know people as a bid for increased intimacy. 787 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: So the researchers taped and studied thirty initial interactions twenty 788 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: four of which twenty four out of the thirty featured 789 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: one or more sequence of teasing. And the teases were 790 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: produced by and directed at both male and female speakers 791 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 1: of varying ages. And this is fascinating. The researchers discovered 792 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: that there was a clear pattern to the teasing exchange 793 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 1: in the initial conversations. So first, something teasable would happen. 794 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: There's a triggering action by the tease target that affords 795 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: the tease, and then second there's the tease at a quote, 796 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: a teasing action directed at the tease target. And then 797 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: third there's affiliation, a mutual ratification of the non seriousness 798 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,800 Speaker 1: of the tease and the author's right quote. Given, teasing 799 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: is one way of criticizing another, it constitutes a potential 800 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: breach of tact or interactional propriety in initial interactions. However, 801 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:42,760 Speaker 1: participants can construe this potential impropriety as an invitation to intimacy, 802 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: as it involves the proposal of a shared ironic stance 803 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: that may be either accepted or declined by the target 804 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: of the tease. So teasing in initial interactions, teasing while 805 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: first getting to know somebody can essentially be an off 806 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 1: record invitation to escalate the interaction and open up possibilities 807 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: of friendship. It's a sort of ambiguous, off record way 808 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,399 Speaker 1: of saying, will you play with me? And of course, 809 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: reading through these, you know these like cobal conversations, you 810 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: see that a lot of the signaling both ways here 811 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: is relegated to nonverbal signals. There's intonation, uh, facial expressions, laughter, 812 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: And you know, one thing I was thinking about it 813 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: is how sometimes a teasing interaction doesn't even necessarily involve 814 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: words like think about this situation. Somebody says something teasable, 815 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 1: and all you really need to do for a subtle 816 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: tease is to respond with a certain facial expression or 817 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,240 Speaker 1: type of laughter, And the teased person has the option 818 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: of either joining you and and laughing along with you, 819 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: or rejecting the bid to join you in the river 820 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,959 Speaker 1: of irony and staying on dry land, At which point 821 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: you realize like, oh, Okay, this conversation or this relationship 822 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: is not going to a friendly place, or that this 823 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: is not the this is not the safe point for teasing, 824 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, I mean it, it's very possible. I think 825 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 1: we can all think two situations like this where you're 826 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,280 Speaker 1: kind of doing this playful teasing and then you realize, oh, 827 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: maybe this individual is very serious about this particular aspect 828 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,359 Speaker 1: of their personality or the world. Like they do not 829 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: They're they're not game for say, uh, you know, political 830 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: based humor or teasing, but they may be open in 831 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: other areas. And that is also ultimately part of the 832 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: social dynamic, right, figuring out like what is the shape 833 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: of my relationship with this person and what is this 834 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: shape of this relationship going to be? What are the 835 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: avenues for bonding and teasing that can take place. Yeah, 836 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: I was reading another article about teasing as bonding and 837 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: it talked about how one of the main features of 838 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: teasing is the creation of distinct alliances between participants in 839 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: a conversation. Of course, you know, we we see this 840 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: happen all the time. Teasing is going on, and it 841 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 1: forms factions in a conversation. People can either join in 842 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 1: with the teasing and now they're on a team together, 843 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: or they can like resist, or they can you know, 844 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: it's often a form of like joining people together against 845 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: an isolated recipient. And this can take very cruel forms. 846 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 1: Of course, this is where it can very easily turn 847 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: into bullying, where in group members strengthened bonds by teasing 848 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: somebody from the outgroup or somebody new. But I've also 849 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 1: noticed that this form of teasing as alliance formation, can 850 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: be really positive. It can have really really sweet forms. 851 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,279 Speaker 1: Here's one very specific benign way I've seen happen a 852 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: lot in my life. It's when there's someone who's uncomfortable 853 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,879 Speaker 1: or unfamiliar in a social group. Say a person's over 854 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: at your house for the first time and they've never 855 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: been there before that you know that they're not one 856 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: of this this social in group yet, and a member 857 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 1: of that social in group tries to make the new 858 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: person feel comfortable and welcome by inviting them to participate 859 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,839 Speaker 1: in teasing of another member of the in group. Like. 860 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,720 Speaker 1: A very common version of this is I see, um 861 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: a wife trying to make somebody feel welcome in her 862 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: home by inviting that guest to join in with her 863 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,279 Speaker 1: in teasing her husband. Okay, yeah, I mean I can 864 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,719 Speaker 1: think of examples where my wife has done this, where 865 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: essentially what she's saying is like, this is my husband, Uh, 866 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,479 Speaker 1: here's this nerdy thing he likes. It's okay to tease 867 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: him about it because it is part of our dynamic 868 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,759 Speaker 1: and you can share to a certain extent in this 869 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: dynamic as well. Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's 870 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: an inviting thing, and it it also tells that person 871 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: it's safe here. It says you're not going to get 872 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 1: your head cut off for mocking the king, right right, Yeah, 873 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: beheading always a sign that that that that a dinner 874 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 1: party is going terribly wrong. It's it's a demonstration that 875 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: there is no Jeoffrey in this house, right. But it's 876 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 1: also a form of social bonding and alliance formation. It 877 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: allows the person to feel like they are you know, 878 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: the that the crucial that the bull's eye of the 879 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: in group right now. Though then again, because because teasing 880 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,760 Speaker 1: has all this inbuilt uh ambiguity and risk there, there's 881 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: always the risk of seeing something like that edge into 882 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,759 Speaker 1: actual mean spiritedness in a couple. I hadn't really thought 883 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 1: about this before, but I was thinking of my my 884 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: own house. A lot of teasing, linguistic teasing, mind you, 885 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,799 Speaker 1: is aimed at our cat, and our son engaged in 886 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,839 Speaker 1: this as well. You know, we we treat the cat 887 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: obviously like a like a queen. You know, she has 888 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: even as a pedestal that she lays upon, and you 889 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,799 Speaker 1: know she hasn't made in the shade and OK, yeah, 890 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: we we love the cat, but at the same time 891 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:38,959 Speaker 1: we have all sorts of ridiculous names for the cat. 892 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 1: We're always going, oh, what is the cat doing? Now? 893 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,359 Speaker 1: We're essentially teasing the cat and it is a very 894 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: safe zone for linguistic teasing, you know, because the cat 895 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: doesn't care. The cat doesn't know what we're saying. Well, 896 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,839 Speaker 1: you know why cats are great to tease, it's because 897 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: they take themselves very seriously. They do that, They are 898 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,919 Speaker 1: very to take themselves very seriously, whereas there is there's 899 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: certainly more of a an air of the jesture to 900 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: the dog. Though. We make fun of our dog too, 901 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: and he deserves it because he's very funny. But it 902 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: does make me wonder to what extent pets then, you know, 903 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,719 Speaker 1: they they are enabling this avenue of bonding, uh that 904 00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 1: that that that involves teasing. I think in this world 905 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 1: where we're trying to be sensitive and socially conscious and 906 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: not and not hurt people and necessarily but at the 907 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 1: same time, but where we also recognize the absolutely necessary 908 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: value of positive teasing, if we need like a theory, 909 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 1: we need like a theory of teasing to guide our 910 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,239 Speaker 1: teasing so so that we we always understand where it's 911 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: going and we don't accidentally pilot it into the rocks 912 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 1: of of of bullying. I agree. I wonder if we 913 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: need like posters, you know, sort of like a military 914 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: propaganda posters that are instructing us about teasing, Like what 915 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,759 Speaker 1: is good teasing, what is bad teasing, what is teasing accomplished? 916 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,239 Speaker 1: What should we tolerate, what should we not tolerate? Yeah, 917 00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what the best rules of the 918 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,360 Speaker 1: road are. I mean, I know some things you should 919 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,280 Speaker 1: not do, but it would be good to have positive 920 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,440 Speaker 1: rules as well. How do you know you're on the 921 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,600 Speaker 1: right track when you're teasing somebody? Yeah, for the most part, 922 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: we're all just winging it, aren't we. Well, I mean 923 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 1: you're trying to you're trying to read read their reaction, 924 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: like if it's good natured teasing, if it's between people 925 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: who are friends or in a relationship, they're teasing each 926 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,399 Speaker 1: other that you know, you're reading their their facial expressions 927 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,399 Speaker 1: and all that, and you can generally tell if things 928 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: are going well, but it's harder to tell for some 929 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,839 Speaker 1: people than others. And it's harder to tell in some 930 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 1: situations than others. Alright, we're gonna go and close it 931 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,360 Speaker 1: out there. But obviously this is a topic that everyone 932 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,280 Speaker 1: is going to have some contribution for. I mean, everyone 933 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,719 Speaker 1: has experience with teasing or being teased, both you know, 934 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: as children, as adolescents, as adults and uh, and we 935 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: would love to hear how you take some of the 936 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,240 Speaker 1: ideas that we've discussed here to uh to dissect teasing 937 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 1: that has occurred in your life, you see occurring around you. 938 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: We'll tell you how to reach out to us here 939 00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:59,879 Speaker 1: in a minute. But first of all, stuff to blow 940 00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,800 Speaker 1: your mind. Dot Com that of course, is the mothership. 941 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: That's where you can always go to find past episodes 942 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: of the show. You'll also find links out your very 943 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,240 Speaker 1: social media accounts. You'll find a link to our store. 944 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 1: Are our fabulous little store where you can buy our 945 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: our logo on T shirts, stickers for your laptops, and 946 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,439 Speaker 1: street signs. Have you got a ten year old Dave 947 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,640 Speaker 1: Matthews band sticker on the back of your car that 948 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,720 Speaker 1: you've been looking to cover up? Put our sticker over it? Yeah, 949 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:28,879 Speaker 1: or just put our sticker next to it. I would 950 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,399 Speaker 1: love to see a picture that I want to know 951 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 1: who we're sharing bumpers with, who we're sharing laptops with. 952 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,759 Speaker 1: We've seen a few of these photos already and it's 953 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,640 Speaker 1: it's really really fun. So yeah. The store tab is 954 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,919 Speaker 1: at the top of our web page. Check it out. 955 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,720 Speaker 1: It's a great way to support the show. But another 956 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,279 Speaker 1: way great way to support the show is simply to 957 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: rate and review us wherever you have the power to 958 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,600 Speaker 1: do so. Big thanks as always to our excellent audio 959 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 1: producers Alex Williams and Tory Harrison. If you would like 960 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us directly with feedback on 961 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,400 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, or just to say hi, 962 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 1: let us know where you listen from, or you know, 963 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 1: anything else, just to suggest a topic for us to 964 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,280 Speaker 1: cover in the future, you can email us at blow 965 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com for more 966 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,520 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, does it, how 967 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:31,080 Speaker 1: stuff works, dot com b