1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you from House Top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: works not Come hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline. This episode is coming 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: out nowhere near Mother's Day, but we're talking about maternity leave. 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: And the thing is, I'm glad it's not coming out 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: around Mother's Day because everyone always waits until Mother's Day 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: to talk about maternity leave. But you know what, Caroline, 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: not to get to soapboxy too soon, But this is 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: a year round issue, especially in the United States, that 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: we need to just never ever stop talking about. Oh. 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: I know it's it's uh not to not to give 12 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: a spoiler away, but it's an incredibly depressing, complicated topic. Uh. 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: I growing up as a young person, just assume that 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: maternity leave in our country was a thing that you 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: were assured maternity leave and you I didn't have. You know, 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: as a really young person, I don't have concepts of 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: like benefits and paychecks and all of that stuff. But 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: I assume, like, well, of course, like a woman who 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: works has a baby, she naturally gets maternity leave because 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: that's how the world works. She continues to get paid 21 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: for it, uh, And everybody is healthy and happy, and 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: she goes back to work in her job is secure. 23 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: Oh and didn't you imagine too, maternity leave being just 24 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: a glorious vacation where you're hanging out with a baby 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: all the time, like extended babysitting. Yeah, sure, we knew nothing, 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: we children, we knew nothing nothing. Yeah, it's not until 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: I got older and and had and and of course 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm developing more awareness of like a maternity leave is 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: not like this utopia that exists period. But as I 30 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: got older and my friends and co workers started having babies, um, 31 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: it became painfully apparent watching them go through it, how 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: heart wrenching and difficult this whole process can be. And 33 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: I realized that, yes, this confession of mine of growing 34 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: up ignorant of maternity policy can make me sound just well, ignorant, um, 35 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 1: But it's because I just assumed that, as a younger person, 36 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,399 Speaker 1: that we were better than that. Well. And I more 37 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: recently spent a an afternoon with a group of women 38 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: where I was the only one who doesn't have kids, 39 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: and maternity leave came up, and listening to all these 40 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: women who have are from have a diversity of professional 41 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: backgrounds at various levels in their careers, and just hearing 42 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: the stories of how their companies, some of their companies 43 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: whom you have heard of listeners that shall remain nameless. 44 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: Just the paltry maternity offerings some of these women and 45 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: were given, and how they had to essentially, you know, 46 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: piecemeal together at least a few weeks off to try 47 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: to manage it. And not to mention too, you know, 48 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: the question of paternity leave, which we're not even gonna 49 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: have time to get into in this episode. And even 50 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: if you are someone listening who has no intention of 51 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: ever getting pregnant whatsoever, this is still an important issue 52 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: I think for all of us to understand because it 53 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: touches on women in general and how they are seen 54 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: and their place in the workforce at large. Also issues 55 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: of race, class, and education that add deeper layers onto 56 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: this um and really unpacking how disturbing statistics come to be. 57 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: And for this episode two, I know we have a 58 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: lot of international listeners, we are going to be focusing 59 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: more on the United States simply be caused, as is 60 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: well known, the US has the most dismal maternity care 61 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: provisions I none UM in the developed world, and since 62 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: so statistics are trotted out every Mother's Day. Um, we 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: didn't want to just focus on the numbers but really 64 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: figure out how this came to be, how did we 65 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: end up in this mess? And first, so we want 66 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: to talk about why we are choosing to talk about 67 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: maternity leave or paid and paid family leave generally now 68 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: rather than as some kind of Mother's Day special, right. 69 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been in the news quite a bit 70 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: the last several months, UM, kicking off really in January 71 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: when President Obama gave it a nod in the State 72 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: of the Union and he positioned paid leave as not 73 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: just a women's issue but a family issue, which I 74 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: hate to say, is really the only way that this 75 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: country has achieved any type of of sanctioned leave, paid 76 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: or unpaid for for people who work. Yeah, I mean, 77 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: and I don't think that this legislation is going to 78 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: pass honestly before he gets out of office. But he 79 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: wants to give federal employees six weeks of paid leave 80 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: after childbirth and allow workers to earn seven paid sick 81 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 1: days per year. Because when it comes to paid time off, 82 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: I mean, whether we're talking about sickly vacation, UM after 83 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: childbirth or adoption, whatever, it might be, and there's just 84 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: so little of it in the United States across the board. Yeah, 85 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: and I mean this summer, it's definitely been back in 86 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: the news for a couple of reasons. One is that 87 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: it's become a campaign trail issue, as you might expect. 88 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are both advocating for it, 89 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: although uh Clinton said she doesn't think that we could 90 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: get mandatory family leave at this point in our nation's existence, 91 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: and after reading up for this podcast, I agree with that, Yeah, 92 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: we are. It's more it's not an uphill battle. It's 93 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: like directly like side of a building, uphill battle. I mean, 94 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: it's straight up and it's been historically a very partisan issue. 95 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: So for Republicans on the campaign trail right now, you're 96 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: probably not going to hear much about supporting federal you know, 97 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: family paid family leave policy. Well, yeah, and political divisions 98 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: aside as we were saying, it's so often has to 99 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: be painted as a family leave issue, not as a 100 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: maternity leave issue, because there's this attitude and generally always 101 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: has been that it's like women, you did this to yourself. 102 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: Pregnancy is a disability, it's gross, you should hide it away. 103 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: You're not going to be a good worker if you 104 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: get pregnant. We don't want to hire you. You're never 105 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: going to come back and fulforced like you're gonna expect 106 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: us to like give you all this stuff. It's gonna 107 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: kill our economy. I hate this fictional boss right now. 108 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: Well you should, and but it exists like in shades, 109 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: This fictional bosses rant exists in in shades throughout our country. 110 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: People in business are just generally like not down with 111 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: helping women come back to work due to a pregnancy 112 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: and also to enable men to be active and engaged 113 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: fathers from the get go, either by not providing for 114 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: paternity leave or not challenging a workplace culture where guys 115 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: are expected to not take their paternity leave and take 116 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: a couple of days off and then you get back 117 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: to work. But on the bright side, Caroline, Netflix, what 118 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: about Netflix. Everyone's been talking about how in August Netflix 119 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: announced unlimited paid parental leave for up to a year. 120 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: We posted it on our Facebook page for stuff Mo'm 121 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: never told you and saying this is fantastic, pastic way 122 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: to go Netflix. Yeah, except it's only for the salaried employees. 123 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's only for the people who are on 124 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: salary working in the streaming division. You've got four hundred 125 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: to five hundred lower wage hourly workers over in the 126 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: DVD distribution section that don't get the benefit. They also 127 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: don't benefit from that whole Netflix unlimited vacation day policy 128 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: that salaried employees enjoy. And this is our first glimpse 129 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: into that socioeconomic layer of paid family leave as well. 130 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: And then more recently, Marissa Meyer, Yahoo CEO was back 131 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: in the news in September because she announced that she's 132 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,479 Speaker 1: having twins. Congratulations, but she also mentioned in her announcement 133 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: she posted on tumbler quote, I planned to approach to 134 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: pregnancy and delivery as I did with my son three 135 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: years ago, taking limited time away and working throughout. And 136 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: this launched a thousand headline in blog posts. And I'll 137 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: tell you, Caroline, when I first read it, my thought 138 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: was simply, Oh, okay, she's simply she's not telling us this. 139 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: She's telling Yahoo investors this to not freak out. She's 140 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: going to be back on the job, okay. But it's 141 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: not okay for a lot of people. Yeah. People said 142 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: that Meyer was setting a poor example for the rest 143 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: of her Yahoo employees, they are offered up to sixteen 144 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: weeks of maternity leave, whether that's having a baby, adopting 145 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: a baby, fostering a child, um and they said, look, yeah, 146 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: it's fine for you to do you but really you 147 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: should be taking this maternity leave, taking this time to 148 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: show your subordinates that it's okay that they do the same. 149 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: You are fostering a culture where it's not okay for 150 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: people to take their family leave. And I totally see 151 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: where that argument is coming from. I also see where arguments, 152 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: you know, telling those people to quiet down and allow 153 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: Meyer and her her husband and family to determine what 154 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: is best for them to to do just that. But 155 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that this sparks so much conversation 156 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: and debate really gets to the maternity leave mess that 157 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: we're in. Because if there were more options, if there 158 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: was more provision for people expanding their families, would we 159 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: worry so much about what one person is doing with 160 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: her pregnancy. Well, that's that's exactly it. I mean, I 161 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: think so many people in the tech industry in particular, 162 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: are worried about this example that Meyer's supposedly setting because, 163 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: according to Fortune magazine, in October, more than ten percent 164 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: of women who had left the tech industry did so 165 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: because of maternity leave policy issues, other sided a lack 166 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: of flexible work arrangements or unsupportive work environments that basically, 167 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: indirectly we're telling these people tech isn't for you, This 168 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: industry isn't for you. So that's why so many people 169 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: are saying you're setting a bad example when really, like, yes, 170 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: we should be absolutely concerned and talk about the policies 171 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: that individual companies and employers set in the expectations that 172 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: they indirectly set for their employees. But this is obviously 173 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: a bigger issue. As Kristen was talking about toward the 174 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: top of the podcast, the United States is one of 175 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: the only countries in the world aside from what is it, 176 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: Papua New Guinea and is Sura not one of them 177 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 1: to that offers no federally mandated paid maternity leave. And 178 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: the US is one of just nine countries in the 179 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development that have no policies 180 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: in place for fathers. And compare that to how maternity 181 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: time off isn't just across government policy that you see, 182 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, enacted all over the world. Except for the 183 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: US basically, but it's also across cultural corner nur Stone. 184 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: This was something coming from an investigative piece published and 185 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: in These Times UM where they talked to Maylan everhard 186 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: Grand who's a Norwegian public health scholar who's compiled across 187 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: cultural comparison of post natal practices, and she told in 188 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: These Times quote throughout history and all over the world, 189 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: people have tended to carve out a minimum of at 190 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: least six weeks in which women are exempt from responsibilities 191 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: other than childcare. And that can take all sorts of forms, 192 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: whether it is a woman going to live with her 193 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: mother or mother coming to live with her UM. I mean, 194 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: it's just something that we we have done, that we 195 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: have kind of established globally is is a good thing 196 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: for new baby and new new parents. So many cultures 197 00:12:54,800 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: in general, but countries and governments have indicated that pregnancy 198 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: and maternity it's it's not that it's a sacred time, 199 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: but it's a time that is absolutely necessary to give 200 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: families a chance to bond, recover, uh, learn about their 201 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: new lives with this new child that they've brought into 202 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: their homes. And in the US, we tend to think 203 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: of it as just like, Okay, we'll pull yourself up 204 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: by your bootstraps and get back to work. Because the 205 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: closest thing the US has to a federal policy for 206 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: this is the Family Medical Leave Act, which allows up 207 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: to twelve weeks of leave per year with restrictions that 208 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: will get into and that leave that you take is unpaid, 209 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: and fort of paid workers in the United States are 210 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: not covered by the f m l A because they're 211 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: working for a private business with a fewer than fifty 212 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: employees and have not been working and or have not 213 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: been working at that job for at least a year, 214 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: all of which are requirements even qualify for this unpaid 215 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: twelve weeks off. Yeah, and the end these Times article 216 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: sites Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers saying that about of 217 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: US private sector workers have access to any paid family leave, 218 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: and only one and twenty of the lowest earning workers 219 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: in our country have it. And these depressing numbers only 220 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: get more depressing when you contrast them with the situation 221 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: in Sweden, where parents get sixteen months of paid, not 222 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: even unpaid, but sixteen months of paid parental leave, or Finland, 223 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: where after nine months of paid leave, the mother or 224 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: the father can take or split additional paid again childcare 225 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: leave until the child's third birthday. I just used so 226 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: many italics in what I just said because it's mind 227 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: boggling and I don't know. I mean, we have this 228 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: attitude in this country that that's like what that that's 229 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: lazy and it's going to damage business. I don't understand 230 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: how these things develop. Yeah, we do that mindset. It's 231 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: exactly how we got into this situation. Um, and uh, 232 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: it's a quick side note, Caroline. I was tweeting a 233 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: little bit about this research and the dismal state of affairs, 234 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: and one of our international listeners tweeted back at us, saying, wait, 235 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: is this still the case in the US. Surely it's 236 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: not that has to be wrong. Nope, that is exactly 237 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: the way it is still. So if you're wondering, as 238 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: we were, how we got to this point, the answer 239 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: begins with World War One, and that's when attitudes really 240 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: start shifting in terms of paid leave for women, because 241 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: this is when you have the first big wave of 242 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: women going to work when the guys are off at war. 243 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: But then that really starts happening in earnest after World 244 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: War two. And this is also when you see the 245 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: split between European countries getting very generous with paid leave 246 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: and the US being like, oh, we don't need it. Yeah. 247 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: You have to keep in mind that in parts of Europe, 248 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: populations were decimated by war, and so a lot of 249 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: women stayed in their jobs that they entered during the war, 250 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: and so in the aftermath of World War two, European 251 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: countries really stepped up paid leave to incentivize population growth 252 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: and simultaneously rebuild the workforce. Meanwhile, in the US, men 253 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: were returning to their jobs and married women were basically 254 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: shuttled back home and paid leave provisions were de incentivized, 255 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: and as a piece, we found on NPR really hammered home. 256 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: You have that post World War two climate coupled with 257 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: business interest that really left maternity leave out in the cold. Historically, 258 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: groups including the National Federation of Independent Businesses, the US 259 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce, and the Society for Human Resource Management 260 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: have consistently opposed these kinds of paid leave policies, arguing 261 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: that it would put an undo financial strain on businesses 262 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: and force quote one size fits all approaches, basically saying 263 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: you know you're gonna have all these entrepreneurs who are 264 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: gonna have to be paying you know, these exorbitant paid 265 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: leave for these women to go have babies, and then 266 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: once they come back with their babies, they're not going 267 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: to be as productive workers and it's just going to 268 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: crush our economy. But at the same time, too, you 269 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: have these deep pocketed business interests, like these kinds of 270 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: groups that have spent a lot of money lobbying officials 271 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: to not support these policies, and that's how it becomes 272 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: this bipartisan issue. I mean, maybe I m like living 273 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: in some weird sci fi utopia, but you are, Caroline, 274 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: and surprise, I know none of this is real, but 275 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: you would think that why wouldn't you take that money 276 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: and advocate for policies that work. If you're convinced that 277 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: maternity leave or or paid family of any kind is 278 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: going to hurt business, why not put your money into 279 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: things that actually can help ever free one policies that 280 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: work with business and help families at the same time. 281 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: Because women have so long been considered a niche interest 282 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: and so diametrically opposed to professionalism and business. And Peter Capelli, 283 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: who's a professor of management at the Wharton School at 284 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania. I was talking to NPR about 285 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: this and attributes sort of the underlying philosophy to American 286 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: exceptionalism and this pattern of us identifying with the class 287 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: that we aspire to. And so, I mean, if you, 288 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: if you think about it, like there is this very 289 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: patriotic undercurrent of the idea of small businesses and entrepreneurs 290 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: and the whole bootstraps philosophy, the American dream, the American 291 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: dream has no time for paid maternity leave. Yeah, and 292 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: I think I believe it was him to who was 293 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: saying that. Whereas in another country somebody might be considered 294 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: a worker in the larger system, here they're considered small 295 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: time entrepreneurs who would be hurt by any type of 296 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: policy like this. So it's not as if we don't 297 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: have any provisions at all for leave. It's just that 298 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: their paltry and they're just haven't been that many and 299 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: they're relatively new. I mean into the nineties sixties, women 300 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: were just quietly expected to leave work once they were 301 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: visibly pregnant. Um. This is also when you have a 302 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: you states, California, Rhode Island, and New Jersey in particular 303 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: that began mandating paid maternity leave. But they're framing pregnancy 304 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: as a disability in order to make that happen. Well, 305 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 1: and didn't that have a lot to do with you 306 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: couldn't have men suing for the same type of time 307 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: off that If pregnancy is classified as a disability, well 308 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: then okay, well then that is just a woman thing, right. 309 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: Otherwise it becomes sex discrimination. Right And so speaking of that, uh, 310 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: In nineteen five, women begin bringing pregnancy discrimination cases to 311 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: the newly formed Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which, as we 312 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: moved into the seventies, said women should be protected from 313 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: pregnancy discrimination. Yeah, and the seventies were a significant decade 314 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: for pregnancy discrimination legislation. UM. The Supreme Court, for instance, 315 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: ruled twice in this seventies that pregnancy discrimination is not 316 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: sex discrimination. And this is important for figuring out sort 317 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: of how we've developed this legal framework around pregnancy discrimination 318 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: in the United States. One of these cases, for instance, 319 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: upheld a California disability insurance program that did not cover 320 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: pregnant women, and in one of the court opinions, Scota said, quote, 321 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: there's no risk from which men are protected in women 322 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: are not likewise, there is no risk from which women 323 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: are protected and men are not. The program divides potential 324 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: recipients into two groups, pregnant women and non pregnant women. 325 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: So basically, the court was like, ladies, ladies, ladies, you'd 326 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: brought this on yourself and the cost of dealing with 327 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: it is kind of up to you to figure out. Which, again, 328 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: is so mind boggling. And I know I already talked 329 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: to about this earlier in the show, but like, oh god, 330 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: pregnancy is not just like a one person thing. A 331 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: lot of the time, Uh, it often is part of 332 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: planning your family. Yeah, I mean, and if we're talking 333 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: about the workforce, I mean, isn't that kind of how 334 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: the future workforce comes about? I don't know, it's starting 335 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: to sound awfully socialist christ I mean, you would think 336 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: that these judges would be very pro robot you know. 337 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: But then in nineteen seventy four, we have the case 338 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: Cleveland Board of Education, the La Fleur that determined that 339 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: it's illegal to force pregnant women to take maternity leap 340 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: on the assumption that they're incapable of working because of 341 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: their physical condition. Right. That was overturning a previous law 342 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court had upheld in that restricted the 343 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: hours that women worked in the interest of protecting them 344 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: from employer exploitation. So you've got women working in factories, 345 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: you've got long hours, maybe you don't have a weekend. 346 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: Women are just standing on their feet all day, and 347 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: so in that regard, it was almost like, you, pole, 348 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: helpless women, we have to protect you. Yeah, it was 349 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: very paternalistic and also detrimental for a lot of women 350 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: of color, especially in working class women who are like, no, no, no, no, 351 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: I have to earn a wage, Please don't cap my hours. Um. Then, 352 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: if we hop back to nineteen seventy six, the tax 353 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: code is updated to offer a break for working families 354 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: with a dependent child, So the government's being a little 355 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: more generous. And then finally, in the Pregnancy Discrimination Act 356 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: is past covering hiring, firing, promotion, and pay. And this 357 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: is actually a case of politicians kind of coming around 358 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: and you know, not stepping on the toes of the 359 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, but clarifying things for the better. At least, 360 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: they classified pregnancy discrimination as a form of sex discrimination 361 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: and directed employees to treat pregnant employees like everyone else 362 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: with similar ability or inability to work. So basically, the 363 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: government looked at what the court had ruled and was like, okay, no, no, no, 364 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: pregnancy is no worse than losing your arm on the 365 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: assembly line, are any other kind of disabling condition. Um, 366 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: so we need to protect those workers in some kind 367 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: of way. But it's still left loopholes for businesses to 368 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: sneak around as long as they're discriminating on the basis 369 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: of ability rather than the pregnancy itself. Yeah, and so 370 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: classifying pregnancy as a disability rather than focusing on the 371 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: gender equality issue has been the quote unquote safest way 372 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: to protect those workers. Otherwise, like we said, men might say, oh, 373 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: well I deserve this time too, And I didn't know that. 374 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I had been really curious as to why 375 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: legally pregnancy is considered a disability. That's pretty insulting, I know, 376 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: like really, um, but we had to do it in order, 377 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, in order to protect pregnant women, 378 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: even though at the same time it seems very catch 379 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: twenty two because it's not like classifying it as a 380 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: disability and you know, including it with provisions in the 381 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: f m l A, which we're going to talk about 382 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: in just a second has really helped out that many 383 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: pregnant women. But now I'm just getting ahead of myself. 384 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: Um so this really jumped out to me. A paper 385 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: in the Duke Law Journal by Debrah L. Break and 386 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: Joanna L. Grossman noted that the Pregnancy Discrimination Act was 387 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: enacted to quote enable women to maintain labor force attachments 388 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: throughout pregnancy and childbirth. Which is so important, which is 389 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: so important, and yet and yet yet, Christian's shaking our hands, 390 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: my hands waving in the air. There is no further 391 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: provisions to make sure that while yes, we might be 392 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: able to stay in the labor force, maybe we aren't 393 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: being compensated at all. There's no there's no financial provision, 394 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: if that makes sense. We're like, we're making sure your 395 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: body can stay there, but whether you have enough money 396 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: to care for that new child or even to care 397 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: for yourself. Again, that's kind of to you. Yeah. Well 398 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: so in the nineteen eighties, as you know, it's Melanie 399 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: Griffith in Working Girl era, right shoulder pads and big hair. 400 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: More women are in the workplace, and more workplaces begin 401 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: integrating flexible work schedules and employer based childcare. Options. These 402 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: became big issues for workers once we do have more 403 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: women not only entering the workforce but staying there because 404 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: you've got at this time, housing price is going up, 405 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: men's wages stagnating, and so how are how am I 406 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: going to afford to live and stay in this house 407 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: and stay in the middle class and continue buying like 408 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: shoes and groceries. Well, you know, the wife's got to 409 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: go to work and workplaces doing that, integrating flexible work 410 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: schedules and possibly you know, providing childcare is totally fine 411 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: for that Reagan era individualism where it's like leave it 412 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: up to the businesses because it was seen as way 413 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: too big government for any kind of federal policy to 414 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: be enacted. Yeah, of course you still here echoes of 415 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: that now. It's not like that idea of big government 416 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: has gone away by any means. And then you get 417 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: another Supreme Court case that upheld at California law requiring 418 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: most employers to grant pregnant women four months of unpaid 419 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: disability leave and the right to return to their same job. 420 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: And then finally, finally, in we get the most significant 421 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: federal policy passed thus far with the Family and Medical 422 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: Leave Act, which again mandates up to twelve weeks of 423 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: unpaid leave for a childbearing or family care over a 424 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: twelve month period. Employees though, must have been working for 425 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: one year at that job at least one thousand, two 426 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: hundred fifty hours over the past twelve months to get 427 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: really precise, and the business has to have at least 428 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: fifty employees. So in other words, women who are working 429 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: part time or for a lot of small small businesses 430 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: are not going to have any access to it. We've 431 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: already talked about how a lot of people in the US, 432 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: a lot of workers don't even have access to f 433 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: m l A provisions. And if we take a closer 434 00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: look though at how this policy was passed, we at 435 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: even more insight into again why there is such a 436 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: maternity leave mess in the US. And we'll talk about 437 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: that when we come right back from a quick break. 438 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: So let's take a closer look at the Family and 439 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: Medical Leave Act. This is coming from a paper from 440 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: the National Partnership for Women and Families. So there had 441 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: been a lot of fears about too many regulations permitting 442 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: paid or unpaid family leave. There were a lot of 443 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: concerns that it would have a huge detrimental effect on businesses, 444 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: their costs, their profitability, their innovation. But studies have shown 445 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: that the f m l A has had either no 446 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: or a very very small negligible effect on these things. Granted, 447 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: we need more data on the money saved by the 448 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: people being able to return to their jobs, but I mean, 449 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: I think that's a good place to start by saying, hey, 450 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: by the way, the f m l A is not 451 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: costing businesses their existence. And consider that too, against the 452 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: background of the nine years that it took just to 453 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: pass this, to pass this unpaid leave law, I mean, 454 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: this really started in nineteen four um, as that paper 455 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: Caroline mentioned notes, And this was when people first saw 456 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: the possibility of a quote comprehensive gender neutral family and 457 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: medical leave on a national basis happening. And it was 458 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: because of the Federal District Court striking down California's maternity 459 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: leave law as sex discriminating against men. And when these 460 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: people were started trying to craft this possible legislation, labor 461 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: support was lukewarm at best, and a lot of politicians 462 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: just scoffed at it as a quote unquote girly bill. 463 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: They considered it very trivial women were a niche interest, 464 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: why would we want to do this? And and too 465 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: when we're thinking about these labor forces, a lot of 466 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: the more traditional union reps were men. I mean, these 467 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: are a lot of men having to be convinced that 468 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: essentially like caring for their their wives and the mother 469 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: of their children is smart legislation. Yeah, it took a lot, 470 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: a lot of grassroots efforts and a lot of coalition 471 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: building and groups coming together to convince people that leave 472 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: is important, that medical leave, whether it's for maternity reasons 473 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: or for other family illness reasons, was important. And so 474 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: you had to get women within the trade unions being vocal. 475 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: They were instrumental in making this a relevant interest to 476 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: the unions at large. And this also is not Federal 477 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: Maternity Leave Act. It is a family, Medical, family and 478 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: Medical Excuse Me Leave Act, because they had to steer 479 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: it away from being seen as women's interest legislation in 480 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: the same way as we heard it echoed in President 481 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: Obama's Due to the Union address where he said, listen, 482 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: this isn't just a women's issue, This isn't everybody issue, 483 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: which yes, that's true, but it says something that we 484 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: need to emphasize or should I say, de emphasize its 485 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: direct impact on women in order to make it more 486 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: palatable to people. Um. So, for instance, they even got 487 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: the US Catholic Conference on board by positioning it as 488 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: something that could potentially reduce abortions because women could receive 489 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: better postnatal care um in terms of broadening it to 490 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: be family and medical rather than just maternal, they got 491 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: the A RP on board by requiring expanding possible coverage 492 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: two seniors and not just focusing it on babies who 493 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: always feel all of our attention. But of course this 494 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: was another way for people on the right to strike 495 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: back because they say, oh, well, now you want to 496 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: cover old people and young people. That's gonna be way 497 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: too expensive. And what jerks like at Christmas time? I'm 498 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: just imagining, is there like sitting around the tree with 499 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: like the grandparents and the babies, just like staring at 500 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: them like, seriously, mag are we that much of a problem? 501 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: Can we please have a piece of the Christmas pie? No? 502 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: By your own presence, I feel like we just narrated 503 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: a political cartoon. So um well yeah, So, as a 504 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: result of all of this working together, the coalition ultimately 505 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: included support from groups that represented yes, women and children, 506 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: but also organized labor, seniors, disabled people, progressive businesses, in 507 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: addition to religious organizations. So they're obviously a very multifaceted 508 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: group of people and organizations. And it really took that 509 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: to get any sort of leave past. Yeah, I mean, 510 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: and it also took the legislation being repeatedly vetoed. President 511 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: Bush the Senior vetoed it not once but twice, and 512 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: Republicans consistently decried it as government overreach and also a 513 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: burden on the taxpayers and also a potential burden on 514 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: these precious businesses. UM. But then President Clinton comes into office. 515 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: President Clinton, the first possibly UM comes into office and 516 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: this is the first law that he signed, which I 517 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: did not realize, and it became effective August five. But 518 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: that's kind of still since the best that we've got. 519 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: It's not like this has revolutionized maternal care in the US. UM. 520 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: We are seeing more recently more focused on state level 521 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: paid family leave laws. California past there's in two thousand 522 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: and two, and Rhode Island and New Jersey have followed suit. 523 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: And as you know in These Times article pointed out, 524 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: research has found that businesses in those states have not 525 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: collapsed as a result. And this is incredibly important. I 526 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: mean beyond the fact that, yes, it's great that these 527 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: states are taking care of their people, but it's so 528 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: important because it's gonna take, as a lot of people 529 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: were writing about that we read, it's going to take 530 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: these states being incubators for this type of policy, this 531 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: legislation for the federal government to eventually one day the 532 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: giant federal government ship and should be like, Okay, maybe 533 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: we should do this. I'm not saying that that's going 534 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: to happen tomorrow. It's going to take a lot more 535 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: states doing this, I think, to change minds. But it's 536 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: incredibly important that these certain states are leading the way 537 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: because hopefully they're leading the way toward a future far 538 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: removed from the situation for far too many new parents 539 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: these days, because as if you live in the US 540 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: and you aren't a salaried employee who receives parental leave benefits, 541 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: then you're going to have to cobble together a maternity 542 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: leave ranging from maybe a couple of days to a 543 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. And even if you are able to 544 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: qualify for fm l A benefits, if your baby is 545 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: born early, you might be scrambling to figure it out, 546 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: or if there are any kind of health complications. I mean, 547 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: they're just so many possible scenarios where things will not 548 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: go according to your leave plan. Yeah, and even if 549 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: you have maternity leave paid or unpaid at your company, 550 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,919 Speaker 1: you're still going to be under so much pressure not 551 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: to take it or not to take all of it. 552 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: The Daily Beast included some data from the National Center 553 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 1: for Health Statistics, which found that from two thousand six 554 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: to two thou eight, nearly a third of employed women 555 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: did not report taking any eternity leave after their last pregnancy. 556 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: But the thing is, studies have linked abbreviated leaves to 557 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: postpartum depression to infant mortality. They've seen in studies international 558 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: studies that the countries over time that have given more 559 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: paid leave to parents and families, those infant mortality rates 560 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: have gone down. There's so many personal but also hugely 561 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: important reasons to make it okay to sanction uh parental 562 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: leave after pregnancy. But those difficulties too, are often more 563 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: pronounced among women of color. Um Women of color make up, 564 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: for instance, a huge, huge majority of domestic workers in 565 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: this country and domestic workers are excluded from the f 566 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,240 Speaker 1: m l A. These are nanny's, house cleaners and elder 567 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: caregivers who can't take a sick day if they have 568 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 1: the flu. They can't take time off to take care 569 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: of the kid and still get paid, and that's certainly 570 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: means that they can't have any sort of paid or 571 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: unpaid maternity leave, right. I mean, it just seems like 572 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: this whole system is really you know, dividing the population 573 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: into the haves and the have nots. Because usually, as 574 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 1: in the case with Netflix for instance, it's those salary 575 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: jobs that tend to require more education that provide the 576 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: generous benefits. But when you get down to more of 577 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: the hourly workers, the people who might not have had 578 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 1: as much access to education, did not have as many 579 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: you know resources growing up, who are then struggling when 580 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: it comes time for them to be planning their families. 581 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: They don't have any kind of provisions whatsoever, so they 582 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: have to sort of figure out what their own, build 583 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: their own network, essentially to care for themselves and for 584 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: their kid as much as they can, and sometimes that 585 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: means having a child and going back to work the 586 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: next Monday. Yeah, the in These Times article seriously almost 587 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: had me crying at my desk reading about moms who 588 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: have to make incredible efforts to be at work or 589 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: at multiple jobs and have no time to even sleep, 590 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: let alone like really take care of their kids. And 591 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: that article was also one of the many that pointed 592 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: out that it's the people who earn the least and 593 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: have the least education who also have the least access 594 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: to maternity leave, paid or unpaid. We found that eight 595 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: of college graduates took at least six weeks off to 596 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: care for a new baby, but only of women without 597 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: college degrees did so. And that's coming from the Department 598 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: of Labor and from everything that we know about early 599 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: childhood development and how crucial those early years are for 600 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: brain development and learning and really getting off to a 601 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: good start. It seems like it is those workers who 602 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 1: need paid parental leave more than anybody else in a way, 603 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it just seems like we're feeding 604 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: now a generational cycle. Yeah, that's absolutely. That's what was 605 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: so disheartening about the In These Times article was it 606 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: just seems like we are trapping our own people in 607 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: cycles of not being able to give enough care to 608 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: their kids being overworked and underpaid at the same time. 609 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: And listen, we completely support the entrepreneurial spirit of people 610 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: out there, absolutely, but it would be great for all 611 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: of us if we could somehow, you know, support that, 612 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: but also support parents. Well. Sure, because you get paid 613 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: family leave, careers get to stay on track, as do 614 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: paychecks and career trajectories. That means that translates to a 615 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: lower poverty rate. That translates to a more stable family. 616 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: That's that translates to to that strong workforce and innovation 617 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: that people are clamoring for and using as an excuse 618 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,879 Speaker 1: to not give paid leave. And now I just really 619 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: want to pack up and move to Sweden, Caroline. Seriously, 620 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna good jacket, I'll be ready to go. And now, listeners, 621 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: we really want to hear from you on this issue. 622 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: We know a lot of you have kids and are 623 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: curious to know what kind of experience you had positive, negative, 624 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 1: neutral when it came to parental leave. And guys too, 625 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: this is an issue for you as well, so we 626 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: want to know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuff 627 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address. You can also 628 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, 629 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 630 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: you when we come right back from a quick break. Caroline. 631 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,359 Speaker 1: As a chronic to do list maker, I can tell 632 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: you firsthand that those lists can seem out of control, 633 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: so much to do, so little time. But here's one 634 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: thing we can all check off our to do list 635 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: going to the post office. And that's all thanks to 636 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: stamps dot Com Because, as we know, with stamps dot 637 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: Com you can buy and print official US postage right 638 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: from your own computer and printer. 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It's a 648 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: four week trial plus one dollar bonus software that includes 649 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,800 Speaker 1: the digital scale and up to fifty dollars worth of 650 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: free postage. So don't wait, go to stamps dot Com. 651 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 1: Before you do anything else, click on the microphone at 652 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,359 Speaker 1: the top of the homepage and type in stuff that's 653 00:42:54,400 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: stamps dot com. Enter stuff, and now back to the show. Okay, 654 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Kai. Kai writes, I'm 655 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 1: a longtime listener from Australia, but this is my first 656 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: time writing to you. I just finished listening to your 657 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: episode on peeing standing up. As a gender queer identified 658 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: person who lived as mail for a number of years, 659 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: I tried a lot of different STP or stand to 660 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 1: pee products. This was ever a decade ago, and the 661 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: options weren't great Back then. They were mostly homemade by 662 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: friends of friends or some guy my friend met online, 663 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: and I never managed to find one that worked for me. 664 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: I have very large labya manure, which always got in 665 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: the way of getting a good seal with the device. 666 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 1: No matter what I tried, I always found I had 667 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: far more yurine run down my legs and eggs at 668 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: the tube as it was supposed to. I resorted to 669 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: using disabled toilets most of the time, which was not ideal. 670 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: Now that I'm not attempting to pass his nail, I'm 671 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: tempted to try some of the fuds as the ones 672 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: I've looked at in response to your programs, seem to 673 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: have more scope to cope with my shape. They're not 674 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: all designed to have a tiny, discreete connection while passing 675 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: as a penis. So thanks for giving me the heads 676 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: up that it may be worth trying again. Love the show, 677 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: keep up the interesting topics, and thanks Kai. Well, I've 678 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: got to let her here from Jodi, who writes, I 679 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: was so grateful to you both for doing the Lavender 680 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,720 Speaker 1: Menaced episode. I was raised by two women who raised 681 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: me in the eighties and nineties to have many of 682 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: the Lavender Menace principles of feminism. We didn't live in 683 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: a commune, but we lived very much in a world 684 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: without men, largely because as time passed and my parents 685 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: lost touch with their men friends, they didn't reintroduce any 686 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,479 Speaker 1: new men into their lives. And she goes on to say, 687 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: I was somewhat disappointed that you characterized our separatist principles 688 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: as living away from men or excluding men, because that 689 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: wasn't how I experienced it. My experience was that my 690 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,919 Speaker 1: parents just wanted to live with other women. Men weren't 691 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: being actively excluded. Rather, they simply weren't being invited to 692 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: join them. My family never sat around talking about how 693 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: we would build a world without men, or how we 694 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: hated men, or how we didn't need men. We said 695 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: blee never talked about men at all. The notion that 696 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 1: these women wanted to live away from men places men 697 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: at the center of the separatist movement, where men, in 698 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: fact just had no place at all. I am naturally 699 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: tentative to say that this was always the case. But 700 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: for the most part, the separationists I was raised knowing 701 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: focused on building spaces that were assumed for women and 702 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: just didn't invite men to enter. The name of the 703 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,720 Speaker 1: bookstore my parents went to wasn't not for men land, 704 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: it was her land. The connection to the historical structure 705 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: that men can enter every space while women must be 706 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: asked permission to enter guides this principle. The goal was 707 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 1: to create spaces where women didn't need to ask permission 708 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: to enter and be, and where women could do whatever 709 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: they felt like doing. There are four men's spaces everywhere, 710 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: places where women simply don't go because we give men 711 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: their space to have agency, and that isn't a function 712 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: of women. Shouldn't the notion of for women's spaces be 713 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: just as normal, and Jodie, thank you so much for 714 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 1: lightening us on that. And that's a great point that 715 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: separationists weren't necessarily, you know, actively excluding, but rather just 716 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,280 Speaker 1: not inviting sin thenda an invitation to the birthday party 717 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: or any party. So thanks for your insights, Jody, and 718 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: to everyone who's emailed us. Mom Stuff at House Stepwork 719 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and for links to 720 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of 721 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with our 722 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 1: sources so you too can cry about maturity leave in 723 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,239 Speaker 1: the United States. Head on over to stuff Mom Never 724 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands 725 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: of other topics. Doesn't how Stuff Works dot com