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Speaker 1: This is Pridget and this is Annie, and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to stuff Mom never told you. Now today we wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about a topic that has been in the

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Speaker 1: news lately, and that is the topic of cat calling,

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Speaker 1: specifically in France. UM I should say Christen and Caroline

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Speaker 1: did a great episode all around cat calling and whether

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Speaker 1: or not it is in fact sexual harassment. Spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: it is, but we wanted to do a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a take two because it's in the news again

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Speaker 1: and there's been some movement on legislation around the issue. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: here's what happened. A CCTV video of a twenty two

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Speaker 1: year old student, Marie Lugware, being violently attacked after telling

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Speaker 1: off a man who harassed her on the street kind

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Speaker 1: of went viral. So basically, she was walking home in

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Speaker 1: North Paris around seven pm when she encountered her attacker.

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Speaker 1: She said that he made dirty noises comments and whistled

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Speaker 1: toward her as they passed. Instead of just walking home

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Speaker 1: and doing nothing, she decided to call him out. She responded, tula,

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Speaker 1: which basically means shut up. If you're a friend speaker,

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Speaker 1: I know we probably set up fell Apologies, she said,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even think he heard me. But he had

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Speaker 1: heard me, and suddenly things happened. He grabbed an ashtrain

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Speaker 1: and threw it at me. It missed my head by

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Speaker 1: a few centimeters. She decided she was going to shout back.

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Speaker 1: I felt hatred. I refused to be demean I was humiliated.

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Speaker 1: After she screamed at the man, he walked back and

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Speaker 1: hit her hard and basically knocked her down. And he's

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Speaker 1: still not been caught. Wow. She posted the video to

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Speaker 1: YouTube herself, writing in French, this is unacceptable behavior. It

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Speaker 1: happens every day. These men think they can do anything

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Speaker 1: in the street, who think they are allowed to humiliate us,

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Speaker 1: and who don't like it when we are offended. It's

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Speaker 1: unacceptable and it is And she went on to say,

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Speaker 1: I am sick of feeling unsafe walking in the street.

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Speaker 1: Things need to change, and they need to change now.

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Speaker 1: So something that I find some interesting about her situation

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Speaker 1: is that when journalists asked if she would do what

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Speaker 1: she did again, you know, knowing how he was going

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Speaker 1: to react, she said, yeah, she would. She said, I

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Speaker 1: was so annoyed, I didn't want to hide to look

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Speaker 1: down that he dared to be angry when it was

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Speaker 1: me who had a reason to be angry. She said,

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Speaker 1: I turned to him and everything went extremely fast. But

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Speaker 1: then I knew he was going to hit me. I

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Speaker 1: was even ready to fight. When the blow came, I

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Speaker 1: took it without showing any emotion, and he continued to scream.

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Speaker 1: So she basically knew that by engaging him, you know,

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Speaker 1: most of us just keep going. You don't look down,

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Speaker 1: You pretend you didn't hear it. She sort of knew

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Speaker 1: that she might be attacked, you know, for standing up

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Speaker 1: for herself. I think that her situation really does show

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Speaker 1: that people who think, like, oh, if someone cat calls

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Speaker 1: you or harass as you or asked you out, just

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Speaker 1: respond firmly. You know. In our episode around travel, the

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Speaker 1: State Department says, if someone makes me feel uncomfortable, just

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Speaker 1: respond firmly. And we need to knowledge that sometimes responding

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Speaker 1: verbally is not a safe situation. Yeah. I remember the

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Speaker 1: first time I was in France, somebody walked past me.

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Speaker 1: A man walked past me. I was like eighteen or something,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I was pretty young. He walked past

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Speaker 1: me and he said, who's that sexy? You were very sexy.

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Speaker 1: I kind of turned and he grabbed my face and

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Speaker 1: licked my cheek and I shoved him away, and he

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Speaker 1: like tried to grab my arm, and I started to

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Speaker 1: run and I just got on, like I ran down

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Speaker 1: the stairs into the Metro and just got on the

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Speaker 1: first train. And I was so scared and like shaken

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Speaker 1: by it. But he he was following me. It's not

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Speaker 1: always an option. I felt like I was pretty I

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Speaker 1: gave him a pretty firm push, but it doesn't always work.

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Speaker 1: That's actually really terrifying and disturbing. Another chase of street

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Speaker 1: harassment made news on Twitter. This writer Pia Glenn took

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Speaker 1: to Twitter to say that she was walking down the

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Speaker 1: street and this woman turned around and screamed at this guy,

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Speaker 1: you know you've been following me for blocks, leave me alone,

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Speaker 1: and that everybody on the street, without talking, sort of

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Speaker 1: fell into formation of making sure the situation was safe.

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Speaker 1: And I think when you see someone being cat called,

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Speaker 1: when you see someone being harassed, I think it is

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Speaker 1: kind of imperative to be the one to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: stop it, And that can be kind of a scary thing,

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Speaker 1: but I think that that will be the thing that's

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Speaker 1: that pushes sort of a cultural change that people don't

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Speaker 1: want you to harass them on the street and like

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Speaker 1: follow them and make them run into a train. I

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Speaker 1: have been cat called a few times. The time that

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Speaker 1: sticks out in my mind the most was pretty recently.

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Speaker 1: I was in New York City and I had just

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Speaker 1: gotten off of the off of the train and I

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Speaker 1: was cat called by a police officer and I was

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Speaker 1: wearing a skirt and he said, oh, beautiful legs. And

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Speaker 1: I was unnerved and shaken by this. You know when

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Speaker 1: when you were cat called, you were eighteen, I was.

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Speaker 1: This was earlier this year, and I think I felt

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Speaker 1: so scared because if I knew that, if I had said,

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Speaker 1: you know, golf or how dare you have the idea

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Speaker 1: of me antagonizing a why a p D police officer

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Speaker 1: in the street, Like I was like, this is that

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Speaker 1: scary situation as I didn't know what to do or

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Speaker 1: what to say. I couldn't shout, I couldn't be like

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Speaker 1: leave me alone. But I felt I was like frozen

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Speaker 1: in place, and I ended up running into a random

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Speaker 1: bodega because I was just so freaked out by the encounter.

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Speaker 1: Street harassment it can really shape you and really make

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Speaker 1: you question who you are in a kind of way.

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Speaker 1: Like it really does it can. It sounds like nothing,

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Speaker 1: and I spent a long time thinking that it. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's nothing. It's just men being men, you know, no

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Speaker 1: big deal. It's not like he, you know, assaulted you

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Speaker 1: or something. But it actually does make an impact, I

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Speaker 1: think in your day, Oh for sure. I remember almost

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Speaker 1: to the date, like when I realized that when I

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Speaker 1: would go outside, it was almost like I was putting

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Speaker 1: a jacket on, like this performance that I was having

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Speaker 1: to having to do, and at the time I had

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Speaker 1: to walk to work where I was going to get

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Speaker 1: cat called, like every day it was going to happen.

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Speaker 1: So to this day, I can tell you what side

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Speaker 1: of the street you should walk on to best avoid

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Speaker 1: being cat called. It's one of my like weirdest, saddest

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Speaker 1: skills that I have. If you're ever walking down fonsibly

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Speaker 1: On in Atlanta, I've got a little map for you

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Speaker 1: your best bets to avoiding cat calling. But it was

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Speaker 1: like sometimes I wouldn't even go places, like I knew

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Speaker 1: if I crossed the street at one point, maybe if

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Speaker 1: I wanted to go over to get coffee, I would

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Speaker 1: be cat called. And some days I just wouldn't even

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Speaker 1: deal with it because I didn't want to have to.

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Speaker 1: So it does like it influences your decisions, and I

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Speaker 1: think it does kind of have this undercurrent of well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go outside and people are going to

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Speaker 1: be objectifying me in this way and there's really nothing

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Speaker 1: I can do about it. Yeah, and that's not a

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Speaker 1: good way to feel. It's not a good way to

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Speaker 1: live your day to day life. But I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: what you said about putting on a jacket, Like don't

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Speaker 1: we all put on this armor just to be out

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Speaker 1: in the world, And that can feel kind of that

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel good. I have a similar situation where I

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Speaker 1: live in Columbia Heights. I have to say street harassment

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Speaker 1: is out of control. I used to live really close

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Speaker 1: to a grocery store. If you live in Columbia Heights

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Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. I'm sure you know exactly what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about. There is a major intersection where in

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Speaker 1: front of this big grocery store, people stand outside a

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Speaker 1: thing that was established before Uber and Left and it's

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Speaker 1: still sort of a practice that has done for folks

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Speaker 1: who don't use super and Left. Like, if you're an

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Speaker 1: underserved community where you don't you don't have a cell

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Speaker 1: phone or something where it's like men will stand in

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Speaker 1: front of the grocery store and offer people rides home

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Speaker 1: with their groceries for cash. And so there was always

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Speaker 1: a line of men in front of this grocery store

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Speaker 1: that was on a busy street, and so you knew

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Speaker 1: if you walked by, there was one guy in particular

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Speaker 1: who was awful, Like every time I walked by this

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Speaker 1: this corner, I knew I was gonna get it every

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Speaker 1: single time. And there was one time that my father

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Speaker 1: was visiting and my father was walking behind me and

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Speaker 1: I was walking in front of him because he was

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Speaker 1: on a phone call and so we sort of we're

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Speaker 1: walking at very different paces so he could be on

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Speaker 1: his call, and this guy predictably harassed me, and my

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Speaker 1: dad ran over there, grabbed the guy by his collar.

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Speaker 1: And I've never seen anyone and my dad's a big guy,

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Speaker 1: like he was screaming, he said, I mean, he said

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Speaker 1: some things that critiquing it. Now, I'm thinking, like, well,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't the most woke thing to say, dad. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was like, that's my daughter. Do you understand that?

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Speaker 1: Are you standing in front of the street yelling at

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Speaker 1: women as they walked by. What if that was your daughter?

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Speaker 1: Like my dad he went off. I mean, if I

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Speaker 1: could go back and you know, Monday morning quarterback, my

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Speaker 1: dad's ran, I would be like, well, I deserve respect.

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Speaker 1: Not it's because I'm your daughter, but because I'm a person,

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Speaker 1: but whatever, I still appreciate it. And to this day,

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Speaker 1: that guy will not even make eye contact with me. Wow.

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Speaker 1: He stands down. He's like, vert your eyes, and I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right to hurt your eyes. Don't you call my dad.

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Speaker 1: I will put him on speaker phone. That's kind of amazing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my dad was not was not. He was just like,

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Speaker 1: is this what you're doing? You're standing outside yelling at

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Speaker 1: women as they walked by. He was. He was so

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Speaker 1: offended on behalf of his gender, and I was very proud,

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Speaker 1: kind of touching. My dad was with me once when

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Speaker 1: some guy was yelling at me to like smile more,

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Speaker 1: and then I didn't, and so he called me a

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Speaker 1: bit and my dad like stopped and it didn't even

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Speaker 1: I didn't even make any reaction, and he kind of

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Speaker 1: jogged to catch up with me and he said, that

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Speaker 1: guy just called to you. But I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the third time this week, and he's Atlanta's. Atlanta

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Speaker 1: is a tough place. But that's the armor, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's the armor that you have put on every day

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Speaker 1: to exist as Annie in Atlanta in public. Is being

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Speaker 1: called a three times and two days is the norm

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Speaker 1: for you. And that is what you've internalized, is your

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Speaker 1: experience out in public will be and that it doesn't

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Speaker 1: even get past the first layer of your armor. It's

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Speaker 1: like bounces right off of you with this point, and

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Speaker 1: that's kind of sad. Yeah. Absolutely, And I so many

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Speaker 1: friends of mine we've had discussions of you know, you

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Speaker 1: wear sunglasses and you put in your your headphones even

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Speaker 1: though you're not listening to music, so you can do

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Speaker 1: your best to pretend that you didn't hear this thing.

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Speaker 1: We all have tactics for dealing with the Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: remember when Apple came out with those new earbuds that

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Speaker 1: just they don't have cords, They just sit in your ears.

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Speaker 1: The reason why I didn't like those is because if

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Speaker 1: you have long hair, or really any amount of hair,

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Speaker 1: it will obscure the fact that you're wearing headphones. When

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Speaker 1: I wear headphones, headphones are part of my armor. If

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Speaker 1: I go out for longer than an hour and I

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Speaker 1: forget headphones. I will buy headphones because I have to

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Speaker 1: have headphones, right, That is just part of how I

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Speaker 1: exist in public, whether or not I'm playing music, and

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Speaker 1: I did that, you would be wearing headphones that people

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Speaker 1: couldn't see. I need the opposite. I need to broadcast

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Speaker 1: to the world, particularly two men I am wearing headphones,

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Speaker 1: do not engage with me. If you engage with me,

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Speaker 1: expect me to ignore you. But that is the way

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Speaker 1: that I I guess that's part of my armor as

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Speaker 1: my biggest headphones, which I always have. Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 1: I bet that never came up in any meetings at Apple.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it didn't. The same way that I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that nobody an Apple thought that the iPad might remind

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Speaker 1: some people of ad menstruation. Maybe they should get some

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Speaker 1: more women on their development teams. Maybe maybe Back to France,

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Speaker 1: cracking down on cat calling in France has been a

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Speaker 1: long time coming, but after the attack, the French Equalities

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Speaker 1: Minister manin Schiapa persuaded the Assembly Nacional to pass legislation

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Speaker 1: that was introduced in May that called for on the

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Speaker 1: spot fines for sexual harassment on the street and on

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Speaker 1: public transport. The fines would range from ninety euro to

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Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty euro. They could be far higher

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Speaker 1: for repeat offenders or in the case of aggravating circumstances quote.

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Speaker 1: The idea is that it is high enough to be

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Speaker 1: a deterrent, but also that we could be sure the

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Speaker 1: harasser can pay it immediately, so that the law can

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Speaker 1: be efficient. The legislation was popular, with the French public

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Speaker 1: supporting it. According to an IF pop pole, she Epa

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Speaker 1: said she was outraged but not surprised about the attack

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Speaker 1: on the quair. What do you think of this new law?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that would be a deterrent? It's hard

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Speaker 1: to say. I like it would be difficult to report.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. So if someone if I'm walking on

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Speaker 1: the street and someone across the street cat calls me,

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Speaker 1: would I have to call the police and say that

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Speaker 1: that dude right there he cat called me, and would

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Speaker 1: they just accept my word for it? It seems difficult

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Speaker 1: to enforce to me, I guess yeah. Part of me

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Speaker 1: thinks that it's a it's a good sort of symbolic

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Speaker 1: gesture that will help push cultural attitude changes that oh

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Speaker 1: people don't like this. I'm not supposed to do this,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, unless you are a cat calling uh plane,

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Speaker 1: closed police officer, because yeah, are you going to say

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Speaker 1: stop right there, sir while I make a nine one

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Speaker 1: one call or you have to hope that a police

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Speaker 1: officers on the street to see that. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a good thing in terms of helping to push the

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Speaker 1: attitude where everybody knows this thing is not welcome, because

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Speaker 1: if you can do what, you can get a fine.

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Speaker 1: Kind of like how if you're on the train, they

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Speaker 1: have those signs that say, at least in d C,

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Speaker 1: they have those signs that say if you go from

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Speaker 1: one train card to the X you can you could

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Speaker 1: risk a fine, But people still do it. If there

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Speaker 1: was a cop there, you know, they might say something,

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Speaker 1: but that it's just a sort of the reminder that

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Speaker 1: you're not supposed to. It's a thing that makes you

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Speaker 1: think twice, maybe maybe that maybe it's that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder how publicized it is as well, if

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Speaker 1: it's most people know that that's a thing, or if

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Speaker 1: random cat caller has no idea, he's going to be

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Speaker 1: fine for it, because yeah, if you ride the train

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Speaker 1: every day I see. I know, no food, no drink,

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Speaker 1: what have you. But I don't know if it's posted

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Speaker 1: somewhere on the street, like no cat calling, no street harassing. Fine,

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Speaker 1: people in France, please write in and let us know.

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Speaker 1: I would I would love more information. Yeah. Well. The

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Speaker 1: new law also changes the age of consent in France.

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Speaker 1: Lawmakers first proposed making it illegal for someone over eighteen

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Speaker 1: to have sex with someone under fifteen in response to

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Speaker 1: a recent high profile case where a man in his

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Speaker 1: twenties was not convicted of a thinking the eleven year

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Speaker 1: old girl because there was no evidence of coercion. He

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Speaker 1: was instead convicted of a lesser crime of sexual abuse. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is one of those rulings that was widely mocked

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Speaker 1: because a twenty year old can't have sex with an

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Speaker 1: eleven year old. That's rape. Of course, it's coercive, I guess,

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Speaker 1: unless you're in France. Yeah, that's awful. But France's highest

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Speaker 1: administrative court warned that setting a firm legal age of

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Speaker 1: consent quote could be seen as violating an adult presumption

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Speaker 1: of innocence and would be therefore declared unconstitutional. Instead, lawmakers

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Speaker 1: opted to classify sex with a minor under fifteen as

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Speaker 1: rape if the child quote lacked the necessary discernment to

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Speaker 1: consent about France was supportive of this part of the measure.

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Speaker 1: The law also gave rape victims an additional decade to

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Speaker 1: press charges if they are assaulted before they turned eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Right now, victims have twenty years after their eighteenth birthday

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Speaker 1: to file complaint. Under the new measure, that would be

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Speaker 1: bumped up to thirty years. Cat calling and street harassment

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Speaker 1: is a thing in France. Study by a National Association

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Speaker 1: of transport users in France found at eighty three percent

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Speaker 1: of women using public transports said they had been subjected

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Speaker 1: to cat calling or intimidating comments about their appearance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I went to Paris for the first time, and I've

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Speaker 1: lived in a bunch of big cities. I lived in

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Speaker 1: d C, Brooklyn, different parts of New York. I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of experience living in big cities, and I

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Speaker 1: got to say, I mean, this is completely anecdotal. I

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Speaker 1: was surprised by the level of street harassment and cat

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Speaker 1: calling in Paris. People had warned me that it was

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Speaker 1: going to be a thing, but I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: they really, they are really out here cat calling That

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Speaker 1: was a bit of a culture shock for me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I had a similar experience in France as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it was hard to because you're in a new country, right,

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Speaker 1: it's different to you, So at first you're sort of

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Speaker 1: throne by it, like is this just how things are here?

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Speaker 1: Or is it because I'm not from here my noticing

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Speaker 1: it more? But yeah, I've been I've been to Paris

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Speaker 1: a couple of times and I've noticed that it's pretty

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Speaker 1: bad there. Yeah, but I want to be clear, this

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Speaker 1: is not just a French problem. You. GOV conducted the

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Speaker 1: largest study about harassment on public transportation to date. They

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Speaker 1: pulled people in sixteen major cities worldwide and ranked their

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Speaker 1: transit systems from safest, which would be New York City,

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Speaker 1: to the least safe, which be Bogota. As far as

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Speaker 1: experience is a verbal harassment, though, the top worst cities

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Speaker 1: were Mexico City, Delhi, Bogata, Lima, and Jakarta. Well, the

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Speaker 1: top five worst cities for physical harassment where Mexico City, Bogata, Lima, Tokyo,

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Speaker 1: and Delhi. In Action AID conducted a survey on street

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Speaker 1: harassment in a number of countries, and they found that

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Speaker 1: seventy nine percent of women living in cities in India,

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Speaker 1: eighty six percent in Thailand and eighty nine in Brazil

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Speaker 1: have been subjected to harassment or violence in public has

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Speaker 1: had seventy of women in London. So again we're talking

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Speaker 1: about France, probably because I just came back from France

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Speaker 1: and I have vacation brain and I just want to

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Speaker 1: think about France all the time. But this is in

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Speaker 1: no way an isolated thing to France. It is a

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Speaker 1: global problem. Like people not being able to be safe

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Speaker 1: out on the streets living their lives is a global problem.

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Speaker 1: It's also really bad for trans women. The US Transgender

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Speaker 1: Survey released by the National Center for Transgender Equality found

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Speaker 1: really alarming findings related to discrimination and harassment of transpolkes

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Speaker 1: in public spaces. That's almost half of all trans people

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Speaker 1: experienced verbal harassment in the past year. Nine percent of

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Speaker 1: trans people experience a physical attack in the last year.

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Speaker 1: Studies conducted about street harassment have concluded that those who

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Speaker 1: identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender are more likely

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Speaker 1: to experience street harassment than their header sexual or citys

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Speaker 1: gender counterparts. Survey conducted by the National Center for Transgender

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Speaker 1: Equality reported that half of respondents, which included both trans

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Speaker 1: women and men, reported being verbally her used in the

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Speaker 1: past year because of being transgender. Yeah, there was a

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Speaker 1: couple of really really heartbreaking situations here in d C

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Speaker 1: where I live, where trans women report that street harassment

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing that me is assis woman, I

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Speaker 1: get every day. It doesn't turn violent when you're trans.

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Speaker 1: Those situations can turn violent really really quickly. And that

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Speaker 1: just because of your gender presentation or gender identity. It's

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Speaker 1: like it's like an added layer of risk that makes

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Speaker 1: these situations that much more dangerous and oftentimes deadly for

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Speaker 1: trans women. Yeah, Kristen and Caroline's episode that we mentioned

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Speaker 1: at the top does a great job of explaining why

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Speaker 1: cat calling is harassment, but new data released to last

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Speaker 1: year really paints a portrait of just how damaging to

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Speaker 1: women this practice is. So in the British Journal of

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Speaker 1: Social Psychology and researched by the University of Melbourne in Australia,

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Speaker 1: completed a first of its kind of study to capture

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Speaker 1: just how common sexual harass is in the lives of

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Speaker 1: women and to show the possible impact it can have

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Speaker 1: on how we think about ourselves. Eight one women around

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Speaker 1: the age of twenty did a survey listing how they

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Speaker 1: felt about their own self image. Then, over the course

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Speaker 1: of a week, these women responded to questions being app

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Speaker 1: they had downloaded to their phone. In total, three questions

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Speaker 1: were sent ten times a day at random intervals between

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Speaker 1: ten a m. And midnight. The questions included whether they've

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Speaker 1: been thinking about how they looked to other people, if

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Speaker 1: they had been a target by any sexually objectifying events,

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Speaker 1: if they had witnessed anyone else being targeted by these behaviors,

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Speaker 1: and the results found that women reported being the target

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Speaker 1: of a sexually objectifying event once every two days. Of

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Speaker 1: these were a gaze or a look, eleven percent were

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Speaker 1: cat calls or wolf whistles, ten percent were sexual remarks,

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Speaker 1: and four percent were touching or fondling. The women also

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Speaker 1: reported witnessing sexual objectification of other women on average of

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Speaker 1: one point three five times a day. Unsurprised, only two

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Speaker 1: thirds of these instances have been portrayed in the media,

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Speaker 1: so when you're watching TV and someone is objectified, but

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Speaker 1: there were many occasions of other women experiencing this in

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Speaker 1: real life, and it actually turns out that it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really matter if this is the kind of thing that's

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Speaker 1: happening to you or you're witnessing and happening to another woman.

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Speaker 1: The study found that it still has an impact both

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Speaker 1: being personally targeted or witnessing others. Being objectified was associated

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Speaker 1: with a quote substantial increase in quote self objectification, proving

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Speaker 1: that these instances of sexual harassment can have a negative

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Speaker 1: impact in the way that women think about themselves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would have to agree. I found I found an

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Speaker 1: old journal entry I wrote like I was thirteen or something,

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Speaker 1: and I wrote something along the lines of I feel

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Speaker 1: like my body is powerful, but it is a power

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Speaker 1: that I don't control. And I think what I was

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Speaker 1: trying to communicate is like I knew that at the time,

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Speaker 1: I was sort of becoming a woman, I was maturing,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like afraid of my own body and

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Speaker 1: of the attention it was getting, and I knew it

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Speaker 1: was like this powerful thing that I couldn't really I

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Speaker 1: didn't have any control over it, and I felt like

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Speaker 1: people were taking that from me. It just made me

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Speaker 1: kind of sad. But it does really impact you, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes in ways that you don't realize. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think that what you just described is I think it's

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Speaker 1: I hate to say this, I almost think that is

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Speaker 1: a rite of passage of womanhood, that moment that you

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Speaker 1: have that makes you ashamed of your body and the

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Speaker 1: way it looks and the way it presents. That moment

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Speaker 1: of when you are taught that your body is not

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Speaker 1: okay and you internalize that. I almost feel like like

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Speaker 1: that is you're having your hand stamped like into your

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Speaker 1: adult womanhood in a kind of way. And I think

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Speaker 1: that that experience is not just an experience that sis

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Speaker 1: women like myself have. I think that trans women have

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Speaker 1: that too, where it's that moment where you internalize, oh,

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Speaker 1: my body is not okay. Whatever that moment is for you,

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Speaker 1: and I think for a lot of us, it's the

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00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: way that people react to you in public, whether it's harassing,

432
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 1: whether it's like looking at you. I'm will Is and

433
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: still super flattested and probably always will be. But I

434
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: was very tall, and I was very hippie always, and

435
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, being like eleven twelve and watching looking at

436
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: grown men look at me and seeing sort of the

437
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: discomfort on my parents face around Matt and really having

438
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: a lot of confusing internal feelings that I didn't understand.

439
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 1: And because we live in a culture that doesn't talk

440
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 1: to young people about their bodies and about sex, internalizing

441
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 1: it instead of being like, why is that man looking

442
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,479
Speaker 1: at me? And Dad, why are you frowning about it?

443
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: And I'm eleven and what's going on? I just kind

444
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 1: of ate those feelings and they stick with you. I

445
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: think I think you're right. Yeah, we're going to talk

446
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 1: a bit more about this law on France and whether

447
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 1: or not that is the right move to make. But

448
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: first we're gonna pause for a quick break for a

449
00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor m and we're back. Thank you sponsoring,

450
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: so you may recall. Back in January, in the wake

451
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: of Me to You, more than one prominent French women journalists, actresses, doctors,

452
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 1: and artists signed an open letter that questioned whether the

453
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: push for harsher punishment would undermine romance and seduction along

454
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: cherished by the French rape is a crime, The women

455
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: wrote insistently, are awkwardly hitting on someone is not? I mean,

456
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this? Part of me thinks, oh,

457
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: we should listen to all women's voices, but really, sis

458
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: like you had to come out and an open letter

459
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: and say this. Yeah, I remember when that happened, and

460
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: I was really upset about it. I guess I would

461
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: disagree with labeling it insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone.

462
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: I think that kind of undermines what it is. And

463
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: also that's not like romantic. Well that's the thing in

464
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: this letter they they sort of say part of French

465
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: culture is seduction in romance. It's not romantic. If one

466
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: party is hating it and wants it to stop, that's

467
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: not romantic. They're saying that they are worried that this

468
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 1: sort of tutting around me too and harassment is going

469
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: to ruin French culture that has an aspect to it

470
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: that is very romantic and about seduction and blah blah blah,

471
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: peppi lapew. They're saying that like that aspect of French

472
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: cultural identity is threatened by me too and calling out

473
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: harass ors. But again, if it's not consensual, but it's

474
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: not a two ways three, if both parties aren't digging it,

475
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: then it isn't romantic. When I was in France, I

476
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: was actually a bit culturally surprised by how aggressive men

477
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: would hit on you. I mean, I meant I mentioned

478
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: being surprised by street harassment, but I was also very

479
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: surprised about just general being hit on, like I'm hit

480
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: on every now and then in the United States, but

481
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: in France it was a whole different level. The wildest

482
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: thing that happened is I was in Nice and I

483
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: was in the ocean in a kayak and I made

484
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: eye contact with someone who was standing on the shore.

485
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: And this person was not in swim clothes. They were

486
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: wearing jeans and a shirt, and he took off his shirt,

487
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: dove into the water and swam out to me to

488
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: ask me out. But he always spoke French, and I

489
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: don't speak French, so I was like, well, sorry, next

490
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: a good time by something out here. But I will

491
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: say that it does seem that men wanting to flirt

492
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: with and pick up women on the street, women they

493
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: don't know, seems to be a cultural thing in France,

494
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: and so I can understand the inclination to want to

495
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: be protective of something that you say is that you

496
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: feel us a part of your cultural identity. But again,

497
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: if it's harassing, if one person is hating it, it

498
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: is not something worth protecting. It's not romantic. Yeah, that

499
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: that's not romantic at all. And When I think of

500
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: romance and France, I imagine like a happy couple together

501
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: with wine, like looking at the actical tower, which is

502
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 1: very stereotypical, but it doesn't involve harassment and are asking

503
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: someone out on the street, like I'm picturing something else

504
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: and I'm not French, admittedly, but I'm saying that that

505
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: can be very romantic. Yeah, whatever happened to riding around

506
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: on a bicycle with two seats, with like a baguette

507
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: in your misst bike basket and wearing a striped shirt

508
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: and then the baguette falls and the gets caught in

509
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: the bike tire and then you crash if you fall

510
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: on top of each other, and then you start making out,

511
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: or then maybe there's spaghetti, if you're eating spaghetti and

512
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: then there's one noodle and then you have one side

513
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 1: of the noodle and then someone else has the other

514
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: side of the noodle, and then you're eating it and

515
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: then you kiss. Somebody needs to make a movie about that.

516
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: I bet it would be pretty iconic scene. Maybe you

517
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: could like nose and meat ball over to the other person. Yeah, yeah,

518
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: I think someone definitely needs to get on that. Yeah,

519
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: why why haven't we seen that? Hollywood, get on it. Yeah,

520
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: we're just ahead of the game on that. One brand

521
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: is a romantic city. I remember thinking walking the streets

522
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: and thinking, if I was with a romantic partner, they

523
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: would be nice. You know, this would be a nice

524
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: place to experience that. But I think the miss stake

525
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: these women are making is mistaking a romantic culture and

526
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: a flirtatious culture with one that is toxic and predatory.

527
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: And like, what they are saying is that women who

528
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: don't enjoy this kind of thing should pretend that it's

529
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: romantic to make these men feel good for the good

530
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: of French culture. And I think that's not okay. I

531
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: don't think that's okay either, and neither does Ship. She said.

532
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: There is some reluctance. Some say we will kill the

533
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: culture of the French lover if we punish street harassment.

534
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: But it's the opposite. We want to preserve seduction, chivalry

535
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: and lamor Lea Francis by saying, what is key is

536
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: consent between consenting adults. Everything is allowed. We can seduce talk,

537
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: but if someone says no, it's no, and it's final. See.

538
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: I think she's exactly right, because it's like the idea

539
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: that consent is sexy. You know, when we talk about

540
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: consent so often, we get hung up in this conversation

541
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: of no means no, you know, consent as a vibe crusher,

542
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But I think we need to reframe

543
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: the idea that consent is a boner killer, right it

544
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: Consent can be sexy like instead of no means no.

545
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: There are people who are championing yes means yes, that

546
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: having clear and enthusiastic consent can actually make sex and

547
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: flirtation and seduction and romance sexier and better and more

548
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: intense and more thrilling, because it's all the more enjoyable

549
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: when you know both partners are totally DTF. There's no confusion,

550
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: everyone's excited, everyone's into it. But I think the thinking

551
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: that says that requiring clear consent is going to be

552
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: a vibe killer. I think the younger generations are acknowledging

553
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 1: that consent can be like a sex toy, almost like

554
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: having and getting and requiring enthusiastic consent can make sex

555
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: and interpersonal romantic and sexual encounters better. I think I

556
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: agree so much, so much. I feel, I mean, if

557
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: both parties are into it, it can only be better, right,

558
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: And I just think no one if you're thinking of

559
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 1: romance in anywhere but in France, I don't think what

560
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: you're thinking of is like some guy on on the

561
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 1: street like, hey, I like your legs and then following

562
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: after you like, I just don't see that. Listen, someone

563
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: in a taxi cab once stepped our hat out of

564
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: window and yelled nice at me. I know they're gonna

565
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: leap this, but it's um, Can I explain what I've

566
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: just said? Yeah, it's another it's a worse term than crapper. Yeah.

567
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: And I when I told somebody that, they were like,

568
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: were you holding a toilet? I mean that's a romantic right,

569
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: Like what the thing that they're saying that we should

570
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: be preserving in order to preserve romance is not romantic.

571
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: It's gross. Like screaming at somebody out of a moving

572
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: window nice is not romantic. I'm sorry. And also, what

573
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: what do you expect me to do? But I was

574
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: in a car recently where my friend was driving and

575
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: somebody rode by and like said something to her, and

576
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: I was like, do you think she's going to pull

577
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: over and get in your car? Like that's my biggest

578
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: question what in your ideal situation? So if you are

579
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: a cat call or call in, because I really want

580
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: to know, in your ideal world, when do you yell

581
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: nice at somebody from a moving car? What is the

582
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: game plan? Right? Do you think I'm going to write

583
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: down my phone number, ball it up and throw it

584
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: into your window? Like, what are you thinking is going

585
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: to happen in your ideal scenario? I really don't feel

586
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: like these men of thoughtists through in terms of a

587
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: game plan. I always thought it was almost like they

588
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: didn't want anything to happen. They just want to feel

589
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: like the thrill of feeling like powerful in the moment,

590
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: more power over that person by turning them into an object.

591
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: That's what I always thought it was. I've actually read

592
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: a few places that for black and Latino men, and

593
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is right or wrong or even accurate.

594
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: It's just something that I've read that it can be

595
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: about reclaiming the feeling of power in a public place

596
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: where if you are marginalized, you often feel kind of powerless.

597
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: And so if you feel that when you're out and

598
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: about on the street, you can be you know, harassed

599
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: by the cops. Because you're black or Latino. That is

600
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: an negative feeling, and so that cat calling for some

601
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: communities might be about trying to, in whatever wrong stuff way,

602
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 1: reclaim a kind of power in a public place. You

603
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: feel disempowered, and so you in turn disempower someone else

604
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: was marginalized, So then you feel empowered, even though that's

605
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: like a false way to feel empowered. I think I've

606
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: also read somewhere that it's almost like showing off to

607
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: other men, how like manly you are. It's such a

608
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: manly man, and you're so after these women kind of

609
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: like a weird armor of their own. Yeah, until my

610
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: like six year old dad is like a little big

611
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: he screams that you in front of in one of

612
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: a grocery store where you've been harassing women. Yeah, then

613
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: not so much. The armor does not work in that situation.

614
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: So we have a little bit more on cat calling

615
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: and romance and all of that good stuff after a

616
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: quick break, and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So I

617
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: sort of talked about this a minute ago. I have

618
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: to say, conversations about cat calling and how we cracked

619
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: down on it really make me a bit anxious. I

620
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: obviously hate cat calling, and I think that we need

621
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: to do something about it, But particularly here in d C,

622
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: I can't help but notice the ways that the conversation

623
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: can be sort of racialized. And so while I think

624
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: it's cool that France is finally doing something about this,

625
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: since that's such a problem, there's always a nagging thing

626
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: in the back of my brain that thinks in a

627
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: place at the United States, where we will use any

628
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: excuse to further criminalize black and the Tino communities. Part

629
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: of me can't help but wonder if we did a

630
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: similar thing here, is that what this would turn into

631
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: sort of another kind of broken windows thing where police

632
00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 1: are using a very broad interpretation of street harassment in

633
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: order to further criminalized marginalized communities. I'm not saying that

634
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: is what would happen, but because of just the way

635
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: that I experienced the world, that is always my my

636
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: sort of nagging concern. It's a brig just unpopular concern,

637
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: I guess, because I think that unfortunately, the conversation around

638
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: street harassment sometimes can be racialized in a way that

639
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: I find a bit uncomfortable, and I think that we

640
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: should acknowledge that and like own that and hold space

641
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: for that and that's okay. I agree, that's one of

642
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: the things I I was when you ask me whether

643
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: or not I think the law and France will work

644
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: that finds people. I don't really know enough about all

645
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: of the situation going on there, but we have conversations

646
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: around that the United States, where things like that can

647
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: be used to keep marginalized people who don't have access

648
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: to money perhaps to pay that fine, can trap them

649
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: in systems that are designed so that they can advance.

650
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: So I don't know, it's definitely worth looking at because

651
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: we agree cat calling is bad, but we have to

652
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: look at all of the things that play to make

653
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: laws that work for everyone in a in an ideal world. Definitely,

654
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: And you know, here in d C, it's one of

655
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: the I sort of compared to bike lanes, right, I've

656
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: lived in the same neighborhood in d C. I've seen

657
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: it change from mostly black too very mixed, which is,

658
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, been interesting and most and like, I have

659
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: feelings about it, but I'm mostly and welcoming of the

660
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: community and all of that. But it's one of those

661
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: things where street harassment in my neighborhood has been a

662
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: problem the entire time I've lived here, and it seems

663
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: like we're only having this much needed conversation now that

664
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: the neighborhood is becoming more white, And so part of

665
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: me wonders, when it was mostly women of color who

666
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: are the victims of street harassment, where was this conversation.

667
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: This conversation is long overdue, and I'm happy that it's happening,

668
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: But part of me is like, oh, well, is it

669
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: only an issue now that the community is becoming more white,

670
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: Like now we have to do something about it. And

671
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: you know this, this sort of goes with what we

672
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: know about street harassment. Not only is there no evidence

673
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: that black and brown men harassed any more frequently than

674
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: white men do, there's evidence to support that women of

675
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: color experience higher rates of street harassment. Stop street Harassment

676
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: study found that non black and Hispanic respondents reported experiencing

677
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: verbal and physical aggressive harassment at rates higher than white respondents.

678
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: And so I guess what I'm saying is just that

679
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: just that I want us to work on a solution

680
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: that acknowledges this. I think we often frame it as

681
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: a problem of black and Latino men harassing scared white girls.

682
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: I remember a few years ago there was a big

683
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: controversy where the organization I Holler Back they had produced

684
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: a video that went viral of a woman walking around

685
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,959
Speaker 1: New York City for ten hours and she was being

686
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: constantly street harrass like in a way that is overwhelming,

687
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: and all of the faces of the street harassments were blurred,

688
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: but they were all men of color, and so someone

689
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 1: said that's interesting that, you know, it was like, oh,

690
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: did any white people harass you? And they said, yes,

691
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 1: actually it was pretty evenly split, but we edited those

692
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: people out. Their answer was that for whatever reason, the

693
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: people who were white who street harassed her like if

694
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: there was a siren or something going off, or they

695
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: said it as an a side comment, and they weren't

696
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: able to capture it on you know, clearly on audio

697
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: or on video, and for whatever reason, they ended up

698
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: editing out all of the white street harassers. And when

699
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: you watch that video, the impression that you get is

700
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: that this is a white woman walking around New York

701
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 1: City being harassed almost exclusively by black and Latino men.

702
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: From the creator's own admission, that is not what happened.

703
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: But I think that that kind of illustrates whether you know,

704
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: by accident or on purpose, a trap that I worry

705
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: that we can fall in. And we talk about street harassment,

706
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: which is a real problem, is that it's a problem

707
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: of black and Latino men, men of color, low income

708
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: men doing it. And you know, you're a rich white

709
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: guy would never do that, And that's not true, right, everybody.

710
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: Everybody can street harass. It doesn't matter if you're black, white, poor, rich, educated.

711
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: You know, walk around George Town in d C. I

712
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: see clearly wealthy men in polo shirts harassing women of

713
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: all kinds, right, like men can be equal opportunity harassers.

714
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: And I just want to I want to have a conversation.

715
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: I know that people are going to push back on

716
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: this and say Bridget makes everything about race, and maybe

717
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: I do, you know, but I think that it's important

718
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: to acknowledge our biases when we have this conversation, that

719
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: when we talk about solutions, we can have a real, thorough, thoughtful,

720
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: nuanced conversations about real solutions that will actually help a

721
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: problem that really does need to be tackled. Yeah, I

722
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 1: completely agree, Bridget, completely agree. Just for fun, one more

723
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: sexual harassment story that illustrates UH that rich white dudes

724
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: can do it to Um. When I was in the Vatican.

725
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: This guy he came out of a church was clearly

726
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: pretty well off. And I didn't realize this, but I

727
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: was wearing too short of shorts. So I'd been kicked

728
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: out of the church. You got kicked out of the Vatican,

729
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: of the of a church in the Vatican rock and roll,

730
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: and he came out and he he was kind of

731
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: being apologetic, like, oh, I'm so sorry they kicked you out,

732
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: And then out of nowhere, he put his hand all

733
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: my shoulder and said, isn't it strange how the minimum

734
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: wage you'll make only eight dollars an hour? And he

735
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: said dollars even though he was Italian, But if you

736
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: gave me a job, you'd make sixty. Okay, First of all,

737
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: sixty I don't know sixty dollars. W First of all,

738
00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 1: want a chiepskate. I'm embarrassed for him, rude. Second of all,

739
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: what a thing to say. It was very he said

740
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: it out of nowhere, So I remember staring at him

741
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: blankly for a minute, like what did I understand you correctly? Yeah,

742
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: he was saying I could make a lot of good money,

743
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: he continued, but I sort of started to walk away

744
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: with purpose, breaking down the pros and cons of you

745
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: giving him a job for sixty dollars. Yo, sixty con

746
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 1: you have to wear those alleys. That really stuck with me.

747
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: And then I went to go buy ice cream, and

748
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: he like popped up again and was like, you could

749
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: buy all the ice cream you want. Think of all

750
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: the ice cream you could buy. It was sixty dollars. Man, Wow,

751
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 1: what a cream. That has to have been his stand.

752
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: I guarantee he's used that line all over town. Oh sure,

753
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: and that's just this thing. He waits for people to

754
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: be kicked out of a church were wearing too short

755
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: of shorts. And then he pounces he is an opportunity.

756
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: And I almost thought you were going in a different

757
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: direction that, like, isn't it odd that the minimum wage

758
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: is so low? We haven't really raised the minimum wage,

759
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: you know, it was inflation that the cost of growth.

760
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: Like I thought he was going to go into like

761
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: a minimum wage spel. I wish that's what happened. I

762
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: would have been on board with that. It's like, it's

763
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: weird that we're having this conversation at the Vatican, but okay,

764
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: I'm here for it. Yeah, yeah, totally So one other

765
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: thing about street harassment that I wanted to say is

766
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: that I do think that this could be one of

767
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: those situations where policy intervention and cultural intervention could sort

768
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: of work hand in hand. I wanted to shout out

769
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: the work of artists Tatiana bas Laziata. Her campaign Stopped

770
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: Telling Women to Smile uses these really striking street art

771
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: images that have these just like you should look them up.

772
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: We'll put them in the show notes. But it's these

773
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: huge murals and street art and posters of women not smiling,

774
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: and it says, I don't exist for you. Stopped having

775
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: me a smile. And I remember walking by that corner

776
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: that I described earlier in the episode where my dad,

777
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: you know, flipped out on that guy, and there was

778
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: one of her posters was where that guy used to

779
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: stay in a picture a poster of a black woman

780
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: not smiling that said stopped having women a smile. And

781
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: part of the wondered the artist that put this here,

782
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 1: did they know this is like the like a hot

783
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: spot for harassment in d C. So we're gonna put

784
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: up this poster just so that people know using this

785
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: art that this is not okay. People don't like it like,

786
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: sometimes I think that the intervention that we need is

787
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: not always policy. Sometimes I think it's it is cultural

788
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: that if people understood that this is not appreciated, that

789
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: women who smile and giggle when you say this are

790
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: doing it because they don't want you to scream at

791
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: them and call them a and escalate things, and that

792
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: if you want to be a cool dude, don't do this. Yeah.

793
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: I love that. I have said before. I don't know

794
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: if it's ever made on the show, but I've told

795
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 1: you before, Bridget I want a shirt that says it's

796
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: just my face, because I do get all of the

797
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: time I'm some iteration of you should smile more. You'd

798
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: be prettier if you smiled more, or just like what's

799
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: wrong when I'm simply thinking, I'm not actively showing happiness.

800
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: If someone says what's wrong, you should just be like existence,

801
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: existence is pain, that's wrong, Wake up, dummy. Yeah, go

802
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: on some like nihilistic rant and then really just their

803
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: whole day. I should do that, but if I don't

804
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: have the energy to do it, I don't have a

805
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: shirt where I can just point to like it's just

806
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: my face. I even um like I have family members

807
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,439
Speaker 1: who always are like, you should smile more, and I've

808
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: I've said it to them to the point where they

809
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: won't say that anymore to me, Like it's just my face.

810
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: I'm okay. You also have a very pleasant face. I mean,

811
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: it's not like you. You don't look dour and sad

812
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: all the time. Even a very pleasant face. Oh that's

813
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: very kind of efficient. It's like, that's like that. I

814
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: met that as a compliment, but I'm realizing now that

815
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: I'm saying it, it sounds I, oh, your face is

816
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: actually pleasing. It's okay to a weird way to put it,

817
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean. My mom says I'm unapproachable,

818
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: So thank you. Well. I find you adequate, adequately approachable,

819
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: and adequately approachable. I love it. I will take you

820
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: every girl. Isn't that what every girl's hoping for? That

821
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: like the words every woman longs to hear, I find

822
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: you adequately approachable. I am on board. So that's our

823
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: episode on cat calling, specifically focusing on France, and we'd

824
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: love to hear from any listeners in in France about

825
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 1: the situation that's going on there and anywhere else really,

826
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,439
Speaker 1: because this does impact a lot of us. It really does.

827
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: It absolutely does. In the meantime, it's time for listener mail.

828
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: Laurie wrote, your episode on Jacinda Arderne was very timely

829
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: for me. I work in politics as a staffer and

830
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: went back to work after a six month maternity leave

831
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: the week that episode came out. Yes, very timely. I

832
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: live in Canada, where parents have the option of twelve

833
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: months or eighteen months paid leave, which can be taken

834
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: wholly by one parent or split. I took six months

835
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: and my spouse is now taking six months as I

836
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: go back to work. We did this for three reasons.

837
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: We're heading into an election in spring twenty nineteen and

838
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to be back at work to prep. I

839
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: make more money than my spouse, and even though Canadian

840
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: leave is paid, it's still a percentage of your regular salary,

841
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: and we want to break the mold and try to

842
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: have more equality in our household. The government I work

843
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: for had three, yes, three cabinet ministers give birth during

844
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: our current term in office, and approximately one million staffers

845
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: also had babies. Because politicians don't qualify for leave, are

846
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: traditionally old white dude dominated workplace became baby friendly quickly,

847
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: which also made the transition back to work easier knowing

848
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: there were a ton of other working moms in the

849
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: same boat. All that to say, I don't know how

850
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: folks and countries with no leave do it, because even

851
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: from my place of incredible privilege, this is the hardest

852
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: thing I have ever done. Pumping at work has me

853
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: feeling guilty. I'm not at my desk. Being at my

854
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: desk has me feeling guilty. I'm not at home, and

855
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted all the time. My kudos to the mama's

856
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: out there going back to work at six weeks, hustling

857
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: to pay for childcare, especially single mamas. It's not easy,

858
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: but we're all doing what's best for our families. Damn, Laurie,

859
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: you are doing it all. I hate that you feel guilty.

860
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: I guess that's just sort of part of the trip

861
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: of the patriarchy that we live in. But you got this.

862
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 1: It is okay to do what you need to do.

863
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: You don't have to be perfect. You are one person,

864
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: you are one human, and good on you, mama. You

865
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 1: sound like you are doing your best, and kudos to

866
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,919
Speaker 1: all the moms out there, and you know, just doing

867
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: it with paid leave without paid leave. I mean kudos

868
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: to all of you. I don't know. I don't I

869
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: literally do not know how you'll any of y'all do

870
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: it with help, without help, I don't know how you

871
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, and it from our listener mail from

872
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: last week's episode from New Zealand. It sounds like this

873
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,479
Speaker 1: kind of tight rope of being a mom, of being

874
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: shamed both for not caring about your job enough and

875
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: then not caring about your baby enough, is something that

876
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: is shared and really unfortunate because you can't win. But

877
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: I love this letter, and I'm glad that you're striving

878
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: for more equality in your household. And yeah, we we we.

879
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: You should right back and let us know how the

880
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: campaign goes. We'd love to hear. Snika writes, I just

881
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: listened to your episode on the sexual harassment, abuse and

882
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: other horrendous things that female journalists face in India. As

883
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: someone who grew up in an Indian family, albeit not

884
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 1: a traditional one, I'm painfully aware of the deeply entrenched

885
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: patriarchy in Indian society, even in more progressive groups. But

886
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: I also want to bring up another point, the conversation,

887
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: or lack thereof, surrounding sex and sexuality in India. Any

888
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: conversation about sex and Indian culture has historically been a

889
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: huge taboo, especially when it comes to women. Though this

890
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: is thankfully beginning to change, there's still very little open

891
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: conversation and women who express any indication of sexuality are

892
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: often shamed and shunned by their family, friends, and other

893
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: members of their community. This shaming also extends to women

894
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: who are victims of sexual harassment and rape. I feel

895
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: like this attitude towards sexual abuse is an added verden

896
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: to female journalists in India. Not only do they have

897
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: to contend with huge amounts of sexual abuse, it is

898
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 1: possible they could also lose connections with friends and family

899
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 1: members as a result. Wow, thank you so much providing in.

900
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: I didn't know that about Indian culture. But it also

901
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: adds nuance and context to what one of the journalists

902
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: that we talked about in that episode, Face that that

903
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: people sent, you know, doctorate images of her in sexually

904
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: compromising positions to her family, probably an attempt to get

905
00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: her family to cut connections with her, which is so awful. Yeah,

906
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 1: we were researching this episode. There were so many instances

907
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: of recent stories of sexual harassment and abuse, and then

908
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: we touched on it in the episode a little bit,

909
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: but we couldn't talk about it the whole time because

910
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: it's it's its own thing, it's its own topic. But

911
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: how the community was more like defensive of the men

912
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: perpetrating the abuse or assault or what have you, than

913
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: it was of the women, So we definitely need to

914
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: come back to that and and dig into it a

915
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: little more, definitely, But honestly, thank you for writing in

916
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: because it does sort of help you understand the situation

917
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: a lot clearer. Yes, And thanks to both of them

918
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: for writing in. And if you want to write to us,

919
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. Our email is

920
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com and you

921
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: can always find us on social media or on Instagram

922
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: at stuff mom Ever Told You and on Twitter at

923
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. And thanks as always to our producer

924
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: Kathleen Quillion h