Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
Speaker 1: today we're talking fulfillment over fire with doctor Jordan Grummitt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what does it mean to pursue joy and purpose
Speaker 2: in your life? Is this like some sort of eternal
Speaker 2: scavenger hunt where we're hoping to find something that is
Speaker 2: just out of reach right where it's just like it's
Speaker 2: just hidden behind the next corner. Or is it something
Speaker 2: that we're able to achieve because it's something that we've created.
Speaker 2: And I think our guests today would argue that it's
Speaker 2: more of the latter. We are joined by our friend,
Speaker 2: doctor Jordan Grummitt to talk less about the what and
Speaker 2: the how behind personal finance and more about the why
Speaker 2: and how our money is one of the many tools
Speaker 2: that will allow us to achieve our end visual sense
Speaker 2: of purpose. In his new book, The Purpose Code, it
Speaker 2: delves into these more amorphous topics in a way that
Speaker 2: allows readers to have a sense of clarity and understanding,
Speaker 2: even like a to do list, as Jordan prescribes different
Speaker 2: actions to take in his book. And so we're excited
Speaker 2: to talk about all of that and more. Jordan aka
Speaker 2: dot G, thank you so much for joining us today
Speaker 2: on the podcast.
Speaker 3: Ohs, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited
Speaker 3: for this conversation.
Speaker 1: Yes too, Man and Man, if you let me blurb
Speaker 1: your book, I would have said, if you like the
Speaker 1: Da Vinci code, you'll love the Purpose code. They're very similar, right,
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 3: Of overlap, of course, of course, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, the first question we ask everyone who comes on,
Speaker 1: and Jordan, you've been on the podcast before, but what
Speaker 1: do you like to sporge on? What's your craft beer equivalent?
Speaker 1: You're obviously smart with money, investing, saving for your future,
Speaker 1: but you're spourging a little bit in the here and
Speaker 1: now too. I'm assuming, right.
Speaker 3: I am, and my daughter and I like to go
Speaker 3: to Barnes and Noble and buy lots of books. I
Speaker 3: know you can get them in the library. I know
Speaker 3: you can get them other places. It's kind of fun
Speaker 3: to sometimes buy a new book. And she loves to
Speaker 3: do it, and I love to do it. I like
Speaker 3: reading crime novels, I like reading fantasy. I'm still a
Speaker 3: big Lord of the Rings fans. Yeah, okay, quickly, it's
Speaker 3: we're spending money on.
Speaker 2: What do you think of the new series Rings The
Speaker 2: Power specifically the second season. Jordan.
Speaker 3: So I have only got to like the first episode
Speaker 3: of the second season, but I'm biased because I like
Speaker 3: the feel. So it doesn't even matter the plot line.
Speaker 3: I just like the kind of.
Speaker 2: The fact that you have been thrust into Tolkien's universe
Speaker 2: makes you happy.
Speaker 1: That's like, that's mad Men for me. The feels so
Speaker 1: delightful that I'm just like, I don't even care if.
Speaker 2: Joel just wants to kick back and smoke cigarettes and
Speaker 2: drink scott while on the job. I mean they really
Speaker 2: made close.
Speaker 3: They really make it look good that drinking Scotch in
Speaker 3: the middle of the day, like when you're waiting for
Speaker 3: clients to come. I mean, it does look pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, never minds the rosis of the livery it was,
Speaker 2: it wasn't a thing back then. It didn't exist.
Speaker 3: It didn't exist.
Speaker 2: It was Jordan, let's talk of. So, your last book
Speaker 2: was taking Stock, and I originally when we met you,
Speaker 2: like we knew you as like a financial independence guy.
Speaker 2: But more and more it seems like you've been pivoting,
Speaker 2: talking a good bit more about meaning and more about purpose,
Speaker 2: and so I guess what prompted you to pivot and
Speaker 2: go in that direction even more with your latest book.
Speaker 3: It was actually my first book, Taking Stock, that led
Speaker 3: to writing the Purpose Code, and the reason why is
Speaker 3: a main premise of that first book is that we
Speaker 3: should put purpose, identity, and connections before building a financial framework.
Speaker 3: So I was steeped in the financial independence movement. I
Speaker 3: was talking to people all the time about it, and
Speaker 3: they could tell me how much or how, but a
Speaker 3: lot of times they couldn't tell me why or what
Speaker 3: enough looks like. And that's why I wrote that first book,
Speaker 3: The Purpose taking Stock. But the problem was when I
Speaker 3: went to market it, and I'd go and do speeches
Speaker 3: and go to conferences, people would come up to me
Speaker 3: after my talks and they'd be kind of angry. And
Speaker 3: the first time this happened, I thought, well, it's a
Speaker 3: one off, no big deal. But it happened over and
Speaker 3: over again, and they'd all say the same thing. They'd say, Look,
Speaker 3: you keep on telling me I need to find my purpose.
Speaker 3: I have no idea what my purpose is. It's making
Speaker 3: me really anxious and in fact, I don't think there
Speaker 3: is a purpose. Stop telling me to find my purpose.
Speaker 3: And of course this sent me down a huge rabbit hole.
Speaker 3: I'm like, Okay, I know purpose is super important, but
Speaker 3: I also know people get really anxious. And I looked
Speaker 3: at the data. And when you go down there and
Speaker 3: you look at all the data, you find that having
Speaker 3: a sense of purpose in life is clearly associated with health, longevity,
Speaker 3: and happiness. There are tons and tons of studies. On
Speaker 3: the other hand, there are other studies that show that
Speaker 3: up to ninety one percent of people, at some point
Speaker 3: in their life get purpose anxiety. This idea of purpose
Speaker 3: actually makes them frustrated or anxious. So the question is,
Speaker 3: how could it be both. It's a paradox, and that's
Speaker 3: why I wrote this book to help resolve this paradox.
Speaker 3: Help you find more of that health, happiness, and longevity
Speaker 3: and stay away from the anxiety.
Speaker 2: That is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole purpose thing, it feels like one of
Speaker 1: those things where you maybe some people from early on,
Speaker 1: they put their finger on it and they're living it
Speaker 1: out the rest of their lives. Then other people, I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe their purpose morphs or changes. And I
Speaker 1: feel like I've lived many lives in one lifetime. I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know that I have one overarching purpose, but
Speaker 1: I've had different ones over time, and I think when
Speaker 1: we talk about purpose, a lot of people assume that
Speaker 1: their job or their career is supposed to be kind
Speaker 1: of that essential, that fulcrum of their purpose. But then
Speaker 1: that can it's depending on what your job is too,
Speaker 1: can maybe leave a lot to be desired. What are
Speaker 1: your thoughts about how your career fits into your purpose
Speaker 1: and how people think about that.
Speaker 3: Here's the problem. People think purpose is like this big
Speaker 3: thing that I either find it and life is good
Speaker 3: or I miss it in life is horrible. The truth
Speaker 3: of the matter is purpose is many different things, and
Speaker 3: you can have kind of these versions of purpose that
Speaker 3: take up your whole life, and then their versions of
Speaker 3: purpose you only have in smaller seasons, maybe for weeks
Speaker 3: or months. And so the idea is we want to
Speaker 3: fill up as as much time as we can with
Speaker 3: these things that light us up. What I call little
Speaker 3: p purposes is process oriented activities that light us up,
Speaker 3: and we want to get rid of as many things
Speaker 3: as we loathe. Now, a lot of us have been
Speaker 3: programmed to believe that purpose has to be big and audacious.
Speaker 3: It has to be killing it at work or making
Speaker 3: lots of money, or traveling or having six pack abs, whatever,
Speaker 3: we were taught, but a lot of times we carry
Speaker 3: this with us and we build these careers thinking we're
Speaker 3: going to find some type of version of purpose that's
Speaker 3: going to make us happy. But because it's not internal,
Speaker 3: it's more external what society tells us we want, a
Speaker 3: lot of times we find ourselves burnt out. So the
Speaker 3: goal is a lot of times we are in these
Speaker 3: jobs and they make us money, and maybe it doesn't
Speaker 3: light us up, but how can we start bringing some
Speaker 3: things into that work time that feel purposeful? And so
Speaker 3: this happened to me. I was working as a doctor.
Speaker 3: I felt burnt out. I had kind of co opted
Speaker 3: my dad's version of purpose, which was being a doctor,
Speaker 3: and he died when I was seven years old. I
Speaker 3: thought I could fix the world by becoming a doctor
Speaker 3: like him, and I co opted his version of purpose.
Speaker 3: But eventually I realized I didn't like the day to
Speaker 3: day activities and I started to burn out. But here
Speaker 3: was what was exciting. When I started really looking at
Speaker 3: my job, I realized I didn't like a lot of it,
Speaker 3: but there was one piece of it I did like,
Speaker 3: which was being a hospice doctor. And I was doing that.
Speaker 3: Let's say five or ten percent of my time when
Speaker 3: I figured this out, Now, if I was stuck in
Speaker 3: a job and I needed the income and I had
Speaker 3: no other choices, I now had a way forward. I
Speaker 3: could increase the amount of time I was doing hospice
Speaker 3: and decrease the amount of time I was doing other
Speaker 3: things like my private practice. And so I think we
Speaker 3: don't necessarily have to quit our jobs when we realize
Speaker 3: that it's not our passion or that it doesn't feel purposeful.
Speaker 3: But the idea is, over time, how to build in
Speaker 3: a little more purpose into that job, and if you
Speaker 3: can't do that, build in a little more purpose into
Speaker 3: your life outside the job, because we want, over time
Speaker 3: to feel like the amount of purpose in our lives
Speaker 3: is increasing and the amount of things we don't like
Speaker 3: doing is decreasing. And that's kind of the goal over
Speaker 3: long periods of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It makes me
Speaker 2: think of so Micro's dirty jobs, right, like where you've
Speaker 2: got these people doing like god awful, disgusting, terrible most people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't want to like do I have anything to
Speaker 2: do with like in those instances it's not about like
Speaker 2: mind over matter, Like no matter what you are in
Speaker 2: those kind of scenarios. And so for those individuals, do
Speaker 2: you think it's about them changing their mindset and like,
Speaker 2: so they're not changing like their actual physical environment or
Speaker 2: what it is that they're doing. Is it looking at
Speaker 2: the work that they're doing through a new lens or
Speaker 2: do you think in more cases it's them, like you said,
Speaker 2: finding some of that purpose outside of that actual job.
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm trying to drill down on is
Speaker 2: should folks be looking for maybe more of that purpose
Speaker 2: within their work or say, you know what, I'm actually
Speaker 2: not going to find that purpose here within this sort
Speaker 2: of framework of a nine to five job, and instead
Speaker 2: I should be pouring my efforts into something else.
Speaker 3: I think we should be doing both. And so what
Speaker 3: we're talking about here are levers, and so so you
Speaker 3: have multiple levers that can bring more purposeful activity into
Speaker 3: your life and get rid of things you loathe. So
Speaker 3: when you're talking about adding in purposeful activity, you're talking
Speaker 3: about the joy of addition. And that's one really great lever.
Speaker 3: Even if you don't like your nine to five on
Speaker 3: the nights and weekends, you can still add in purposeful
Speaker 3: activity and that can feel like a benefit. But then
Speaker 3: We can also use another lever called the art of subtraction,
Speaker 3: which is getting rid of things we don't like. And
Speaker 3: specifically we can look at our work lives and see
Speaker 3: how we can shift things around. Right. Can we change
Speaker 3: bosses so we like our boss more even if we
Speaker 3: don't like the job. Can we change the activities we
Speaker 3: do in the workplace. So a great example I always
Speaker 3: use is, let's say you work in a restaurant and
Speaker 3: you hate working upfront, but you love doing the stock
Speaker 3: in the stock room. Well, maybe you need to go
Speaker 3: to your boss and say, hey, I want to spend
Speaker 3: more of my time in the stock room and less
Speaker 3: time upfront. You still have the same job, you still
Speaker 3: have parts of it that you don't love, but the
Speaker 3: idea is over time, you're trying to maximize the things
Speaker 3: you like and get rid of the things you don't like.
Speaker 3: So we can use these levers, and I think both
Speaker 3: are important. So definitely add in purposeful activity to your life,
Speaker 3: whether that's at the job or off the job, and
Speaker 3: then subtract out the things you don't like, especially at work.
Speaker 3: See if you can make sure the time that you're
Speaker 3: required to be there, Because we all need a paycheck,
Speaker 3: but at least maybe you're enjoying it more.
Speaker 1: So, you know that the saying that the grass is
Speaker 1: always greener on the other side. And I think it's
Speaker 1: really easy for people to see maybe the negative or
Speaker 1: downsides where they where they're currently placed, whether it's it's
Speaker 1: I think social media makes a comparison game just so
Speaker 1: much more significant in our lives, and so it's really
Speaker 1: easy to see the things that we don't have or
Speaker 1: the ways in which our lives are inferior to others.
Speaker 1: How much of it is like Matt's kind of referring
Speaker 1: to the mindset thing, Well, maybe it seems like subtracting
Speaker 1: something would be would be the most beneficial thing to you.
Speaker 1: But then you subtract that thing and you realize, actually
Speaker 1: it's not as green as I thought it was. This
Speaker 1: grass is kind of yellow. I don't know, Like, how
Speaker 1: how do you think about that part of purpose too?
Speaker 1: That maybe some of it is idealism and hopes for
Speaker 1: things that are maybe too lofty.
Speaker 3: So here's the thing. I think part of the reason
Speaker 3: why purpose feels so difficult is we don't know how
Speaker 3: to search for it in our life. We don't know
Speaker 3: how to build or develop it. And so we go
Speaker 3: searching for purpose through other people. And of course, if
Speaker 3: you're going to search through purpose for purpose through other people,
Speaker 3: what are we gonna do. We're gonna look at the internet, right,
Speaker 3: We're gonna look at TikTok, Instagram, We're gonna look at marketing,
Speaker 3: which the focus of that campaign is to sell us something.
Speaker 3: And so if you look at TikTok or Instagram, everyone
Speaker 3: either has six pack abs, they have an eight figure business,
Speaker 3: or they're wearing the nicest clothes, or they're traveling to
Speaker 3: the most beautiful countries. And so it's really easy for
Speaker 3: us to co opt a version of purpose that isn't
Speaker 3: ours from people who are trying to sell us something,
Speaker 3: whether it's their influence or whether it's their product. And so, yes,
Speaker 3: I think it's very easy to think of the grasses
Speaker 3: greener on the other side, especially when we go after
Speaker 3: the wrong kind of purpose. Remember I mentioned this idea
Speaker 3: that there was a type of perse that's more associated
Speaker 3: with anxiety and probably one that's more associated with health, longevity,
Speaker 3: and happiness. What I call those are big P purpose
Speaker 3: and little P purpose. Little P purpose is process oriented,
Speaker 3: meaning doing things that you love doing that light you up.
Speaker 3: It's very abundant, and it's kind of individualized, right, I
Speaker 3: might like one thing that you don't like, and you
Speaker 3: might like one thing that I don't like. When I
Speaker 3: was little, I loved baseball cards. So a version of
Speaker 3: little P purpose for me is collecting baseball cards, trading them,
Speaker 3: buying them, maybe reading blogs about baseball cards, or going
Speaker 3: to conferences like that's unique to me. There might be
Speaker 3: some other people who have that, but in general it's
Speaker 3: much more individualized. The kind of purpose most of a
Speaker 3: shoot for is what's called big P purpose. It's big
Speaker 3: and audacious. This gets back to the six pack abs
Speaker 3: and the eight figure businesses. The problem with that is
Speaker 3: usually that someone else's version of purpose that they're trying
Speaker 3: to sell to us, it usually doesn't light us up.
Speaker 3: And in fact, a lot of times to get to
Speaker 3: that big audacious purpose to be successful, we have to
Speaker 3: do things we don't enjoy the process of doing, and
Speaker 3: it burns us out, and a lot of times we
Speaker 3: don't even reach it right. Because you got to be
Speaker 3: the right person at the right time, saying the right things,
Speaker 3: having the right genetics and a bunch of luck to
Speaker 3: become for instance, a billionaire, but if we look at
Speaker 3: TikTok and Instagram, that's what they're telling us to do.
Speaker 3: So of course we feel lost. Of course the grass
Speaker 3: doesn't feel greener on the other side, because we're jumping
Speaker 3: from something we don't like, like our job, and trying
Speaker 3: to co opt someone else's version of purpose that they're
Speaker 3: trying to sell to us for nefarious reasons. And so
Speaker 3: I think we have to start searching deeper of what
Speaker 3: lights us up on the inside. What are those inklings
Speaker 3: are beckonings, I call them purpose anchors that basically get
Speaker 3: us excited, and then we have to build a life
Speaker 3: of purpose around that. And this is where I think
Speaker 3: most of us make our mistake.
Speaker 2: I love that. It's crazy, how like you just highlighted
Speaker 2: how we can co opt not only the things that
Speaker 2: we consume, like the products that we buy, but how
Speaker 2: we can also lend that to what we should be
Speaker 2: doing with our lives and the Maybe I could even
Speaker 2: like dictate the kind of charities that were involved with
Speaker 2: and the things that we give our money to. But like,
Speaker 2: on one hand, I think that could be good though,
Speaker 2: because I think about the fact that there are a
Speaker 2: lot of products or organizations or movements that you may
Speaker 2: not even be aware of, and the fact that they're
Speaker 2: out there being broadcasted, people are talking about it on
Speaker 2: the Internet. It can open your eyes and so there
Speaker 2: is a sense of discovery there. I think what you're
Speaker 2: getting at, though, is that if we do that without
Speaker 2: at all questioning whether or not that is moving the
Speaker 2: needle for us, that could, I don't know, leave us
Speaker 2: feeling pretty pretty empty inside. But you're talking about the
Speaker 2: pursuing the things that light us up individually. Somewhere in
Speaker 2: your buckyard, you talked about how like we're calling some
Speaker 2: of our childhood interests, that's actually one of the steps
Speaker 2: that can actually lead you to some of that I
Speaker 2: don't know, some of that more fulfilling purpose in our lives.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 3: So the problem comes down to a lot of people
Speaker 3: say I don't know how to find my purpose. And
Speaker 3: as you've heard me say multiple times already, you don't
Speaker 3: really find it. You build or create it. But it
Speaker 3: is true you need these inklings or these beckonings what
Speaker 3: I call purpose anchors, to build a life of purpose around.
Speaker 3: And so what we're really talking about when we say
Speaker 3: I can't find my purpose you're saying, well, I don't
Speaker 3: really know what my purpose anchors are. And that's where
Speaker 3: we get into a deeper discussion of what are some
Speaker 3: of the exercises that anyone can do to start discovering
Speaker 3: these purpose anchors. The Joys of Childhood is a perfect example.
Speaker 3: Think back to what your childhood room look like. What
Speaker 3: were the posters, what were the drawings, what were the trophies.
Speaker 3: A lot of times kids pursue purpose before they've been
Speaker 3: told who they're supposed to be, and a lot of
Speaker 3: times it's process oriented. Person's purpose, right they want to
Speaker 3: go out and play tennis all day, or cops and
Speaker 3: robbers or build a fort, and a lot of times
Speaker 3: it doesn't even matter if they accomplish their goal. They
Speaker 3: get so lost in it they forget time and come
Speaker 3: home late for dinner. That's really purposeful. But then they
Speaker 3: get older and they get told what they have to
Speaker 3: do for a living, and they get interested in academics,
Speaker 3: and they kind of drop all that stuff. So if
Speaker 3: you're trying to figure out what are your purpose anchors
Speaker 3: to build a life of purpose around, a great place
Speaker 3: to start is the Joys of Childhood. Again, going back
Speaker 3: to me, I loved baseball cards when I was little.
Speaker 3: I actually just don't have enough time. I have plenty
Speaker 3: of parts anchors, But if I was searching to build
Speaker 3: some purposeful activity in my life, I could use that
Speaker 3: as a purpose anchor and start building a life of
Speaker 3: purpose around it. And I think we all can do
Speaker 3: that if we're in that searching phase where we feel
Speaker 3: like we don't really know what feels like purposeful in
Speaker 3: our life.
Speaker 1: So I guess my purpose is cookie crisp and cinnamon
Speaker 1: Toe's crunch. Jordan, if that's what we going back to childhood, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it'd be more basketball related for you. Joel
Speaker 1: well too, but I like to trashy Cereal too, Jordan.
Speaker 1: You you also talk about how the circles that we
Speaker 1: run in the relationships that we have, and how those
Speaker 1: have a massive impact on our on our purpose. I
Speaker 1: think that feels truer of me the older I get
Speaker 1: that the people I spend time with, or that I'm
Speaker 1: closest to their purposes in good ways have rubbed off
Speaker 1: on me. Like sometimes it's fun to hang out with
Speaker 1: people who like different things than I like, but occasionally
Speaker 1: I'll start to like one of the things that they like,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of fun to have that overlap. What
Speaker 1: is Yeah, how does that work? And how do we
Speaker 1: know whether we're maybe stealing somebody else's purpose that doesn't
Speaker 1: really resonate with us us or if we're actually just
Speaker 1: adopting something in that we do enjoy or that yeah,
Speaker 1: it does kind of light us up.
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing that's pretty cool, right, little p
Speaker 3: purpose is process oriented, it's abundant, and when you do
Speaker 3: these things, it lights you up. But here's what happens.
Speaker 3: When you are lit up doing the thing that feels
Speaker 3: really intentional to you, it attracts other like minded people. So,
Speaker 3: like a moth to a flame, other people are going
Speaker 3: to be connected attracted to you, and they're going to
Speaker 3: want to collaborate from you, or if they don't know
Speaker 3: as much as you, they're going to want to learn
Speaker 3: from you, or if they know more than you, they're
Speaker 3: going to want to teach you. But the same works
Speaker 3: for you. When you go out into the world and
Speaker 3: see someone doing something that lights them up, yes, it's
Speaker 3: very attractive, and especially if it's something that you like.
Speaker 3: So here's what happens. You interact with them, Maybe you collaborate,
Speaker 3: maybe you try to learn from them, and then you
Speaker 3: have to assess, well, does that same thing light me up?
Speaker 3: And if the answer is yes, it lights me up.
Speaker 3: The process of doing this, not the riches these people
Speaker 3: have made, not the fame they have, but doing the
Speaker 3: activity they do really lights you up. Then it probably
Speaker 3: is a version of little people perpose and it was
Speaker 3: probably the reason you were attracted to them in the
Speaker 3: first place. And so I think that's all really really positive.
Speaker 3: And as long as you're able to engage with this
Speaker 3: person try on that identity that they have. If you
Speaker 3: decide you don't like that identity and you don't like
Speaker 3: those activities, it's fine to just walk away. You can
Speaker 3: still be their friend, but you're probably not going to
Speaker 3: engage with them on as deep of a level.
Speaker 2: You're also making me feel better about the fact that
Speaker 2: I changed my major every single year in college, Jordan,
Speaker 2: the fact that I tried all these different identities by
Speaker 2: taking these classes and then quickly realizing that, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I guess I'm not going to be a
Speaker 2: science major. Pre med isn't what I'm here to do.
Speaker 1: It's also amazing that some of the things that we
Speaker 1: knee jerk say we don't like or are not interested in,
Speaker 1: like my kids do with certain foods that we put
Speaker 1: in front of them, how they become an acquiet taste.
Speaker 1: And there are certain things that we might say not
Speaker 1: part of my purpose, that's not part of my how
Speaker 1: I find fulfillment in life. And then you try it
Speaker 1: on for a little bit and then you're like, wait
Speaker 1: a second, I kind of dig this thing, and so
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's probably some some purposeful purpose experimentation
Speaker 1: that has to be done too.
Speaker 3: Right, So we call this the spaghetti method. So I
Speaker 3: mentioned the Joys of Childhood or a great way to
Speaker 3: figure out purpose anchors. There's some other ways I mentioned
Speaker 3: in the book, but some people come to me and
Speaker 3: say none of that works. And so the people who
Speaker 3: say nothing works, I say, try the Spaghetti method. Do
Speaker 3: things you don't normally do, hang out with people you
Speaker 3: don't normally hang out with. Do something maybe that's a
Speaker 3: little uncomfortable for you, and do it for a day
Speaker 3: and see what happens. And if you find it resonates
Speaker 3: with you or you feel some joy doing it, that
Speaker 3: could be a great purpose anchor. And then the hard
Speaker 3: part comes. You have to build the life of purpose
Speaker 3: around it. Now again, we're high stakes people, so I
Speaker 3: say build a life of purpose, and you are all
Speaker 3: of a sudden having these big, audacious ideas and plans
Speaker 3: of these crazy things you're going to have to do.
Speaker 3: But it's not like that at all. If you go
Speaker 3: swimming with a friend and you hate swimming, or you
Speaker 3: thought you hated swimming, but you said yes to them
Speaker 3: because you tried the spaghetti method and you enjoyed it,
Speaker 3: building a life of little pea purpose might be once
Speaker 3: a week going and swimming and hanging out with the
Speaker 3: same people and going to happy hour after with them,
Speaker 3: And it could be as simple as that. That's the
Speaker 3: beginning of purpose and community and doing things that light
Speaker 3: you up, that connect you with other people. It doesn't
Speaker 3: have to be so big and crazy and all fulfilling.
Speaker 3: It can just be something simple you like doing. And
Speaker 3: you have room in your life for multiple purpose anchors.
Speaker 3: So one of those purpose anchors could be working as
Speaker 3: a researcher on cancer and trying to help the world.
Speaker 3: If you enjoy the process of doing that, regardless if
Speaker 3: you succeed or not, that could be a deeper, enduring
Speaker 3: form of little pea purpose. For you. But you compare
Speaker 3: that with some of these seasonal or short term versions
Speaker 3: of little pea purpose too, and they all can go together.
Speaker 2: What I love about what you just said is that
Speaker 2: it almost doesn't have a name to it. Like going
Speaker 2: back to the swimming example, I think somebody who started
Speaker 2: doing that, they would never have said, oh, this is
Speaker 2: going to be the beginning of this new purpose. There's
Speaker 2: little pea purpose in the life for them. Like there's
Speaker 2: literally not even a label for it. It's almost like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is something I just it's this dumb little thing
Speaker 2: I do on TVA as most where I get with
Speaker 2: my buddy, but then all of a sudden it turns
Speaker 2: into this other thing. And I guess what I want
Speaker 2: to ask you now is that it seems like that
Speaker 2: there needs to be a level of openness that someone
Speaker 2: needs to have in order to discover some of these
Speaker 2: different little pea purposes. Do you see this being more
Speaker 2: difficult for folks maybe who is just part of their
Speaker 2: personality that they are actually less open, Like do you
Speaker 2: see certain types of people being able to find their
Speaker 2: purpose more easily than others?
Speaker 3: Look, I think everyone is open to happiness, because I
Speaker 3: think that's What we're really talking about here is happiness
Speaker 3: doing the things that incite you and light you up,
Speaker 3: and that you can build a happy life around. But
Speaker 3: I will also say that a lot of people have
Speaker 3: a litmus test for whatever activities they're going to do
Speaker 3: in a big part of that litmus test is impact
Speaker 3: and legacy. So they will limit what they do because
Speaker 3: they think it's selfish or they think it's not changing
Speaker 3: the world. And so there is a certain amount of
Speaker 3: openness that you need to say, I'm just gonna do
Speaker 3: this thing because I enjoy it. I'm gonna let go
Speaker 3: of the goals. I'm gonna let go of this kind
Speaker 3: of big audacious plan and just do things that light
Speaker 3: you up. Now, that doesn't mean that it won't change
Speaker 3: the world. It just means that you stop using that
Speaker 3: as the driver and start using the driver of things
Speaker 3: that you really love.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, We've got more to get to with
Speaker 1: with you, Jordan, and uh, of course we got to
Speaker 1: talk about the intersection of money and purpose. We'll get
Speaker 1: to some discussion on that right after this.
Speaker 2: We are back from the Brag talking about finding fulfillment
Speaker 2: over fire with Doc g aka Doctor Jordan Grummitt. And Jordan.
Speaker 2: In your book, you talk about the need for both
Speaker 2: meaning as well as purpose, and you you create a
Speaker 2: clear distinction between the two. It involves time. But can
Speaker 2: you explain the different difference between the two and why
Speaker 2: it is that we need both.
Speaker 3: I think we need both meaning and purpose to be happy.
Speaker 3: In fact, I say that both of them are a foundation.
Speaker 3: But they're very different things, and most people don't realize this.
Speaker 3: Meaning is how we cognitively think about the past. It's
Speaker 3: the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And happy people
Speaker 3: tend to tell themselves heroic stories. They look at their past,
Speaker 3: they look at their trauma, they look whatever happened to them,
Speaker 3: and they say, I was enough and I made it
Speaker 3: through that, and so that's why I am where I
Speaker 3: am today, and I'll probably continue to be enough in
Speaker 3: the present and future. Unhappy people tend to tell themselves
Speaker 3: a victim story. I wasn't enough all the way back then.
Speaker 3: These traumas happen to me. They thwarted me. I'm continuing
Speaker 3: to be thwarted today and most likely it'll happen in
Speaker 3: the present in future too. They don't feel enough. Here's
Speaker 3: the difference between meaning and purpose. While meaning is about
Speaker 3: cognition in the past and is really a journey to enough.
Speaker 3: Purpose is about the present and future, and it's all
Speaker 3: about actions. It's simply doing the things that light you up.
Speaker 3: Why is this important. It's important because there are a
Speaker 3: lot of people who actually don't have the greatest sense
Speaker 3: of meaning. They don't tell themselves heroic stories, and so
Speaker 3: they don't feel like they're enough. So the way to
Speaker 3: deal with that is to go back and rewrite those stories.
Speaker 3: But instead they think they can purpose their way to enough.
Speaker 3: What I mean is they're like, if I just do
Speaker 3: these big, audacious things, it'll prove that I'm good enough,
Speaker 3: and life will be good and I'll be happy. And
Speaker 3: we know, of course that just doesn't work. If you
Speaker 3: question whether it works or not, look at someone like
Speaker 3: Steve Jobs. Before he died, he was one of the
Speaker 3: most successful guys ever. He had some of the most
Speaker 3: money than other entrepreneurs. He's very wealthy, and yet he
Speaker 3: never looked particularly happy. You could say the same thing
Speaker 3: about Elon Musk. They have all these wonderful things and achievements,
Speaker 3: but until they kind of go back and rewrite those
Speaker 3: stories of their childhood and deal with their traumas. They're
Speaker 3: going to continuously try to prove their enoughness by doing
Speaker 3: bigger and better and more audacious things, and it just
Speaker 3: doesn't work. You cannot purpose your way to enough, You
Speaker 3: can't purpose your way to happiness. You need both meaning
Speaker 3: and purpose to truly get there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, and I think, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes people, especially of that ILK, think if I
Speaker 1: create the most successful technological product of all time, then
Speaker 1: I will be I will have arrived. And the truth
Speaker 1: is there is no arriving. And if you're not kind
Speaker 1: of satisfied in your soul in a deeper level, no
Speaker 1: amount of earthly success I think will give that to you.
Speaker 1: You obviously care a lot about money. You talk about
Speaker 1: personal finance. You're a personal finance nerd. I would say, allah, Matt,
Speaker 1: and I but like, what's the intersection of money and
Speaker 1: purpose here? And how big of an influence should our
Speaker 1: income or our ability to make financial progress, How much
Speaker 1: influence should that have on kind of the purpose that
Speaker 1: we have for our lives.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about two things, the intersection of money and
Speaker 3: purpose and then the intersection of money and happiness, because
Speaker 3: I think the second one actually is the bigger story.
Speaker 3: So the intersection of money and purpose, in my opinion
Speaker 3: is money is a great tool to pursue a life
Speaker 3: of purpose, but that is all it is. It gets
Speaker 3: a little more problematic when we talk about money and happiness,
Speaker 3: and we know, like to get nerdy for a moment.
Speaker 3: There are tons of studies about money and happiness. Condom
Speaker 3: and Deeton, I think it was twenty ten Matt Killing's
Speaker 3: Worth twenty sixteen. Both of them did studies about money
Speaker 3: and happiness. Condom and a Deeton used data that was
Speaker 3: gathered for something else and retrospectively analyzed it. Killingsworth prospectively
Speaker 3: meaning he started with his hypothesis and gathered data, but
Speaker 3: the kind of data he gathered was like texting people
Speaker 3: multiple times a day for a number of months and
Speaker 3: collecting their responses. And both of them tried to decide
Speaker 3: whether money was related to happiness, and they both came
Speaker 3: to the conclusion that at least up to a point
Speaker 3: for sure. Condom In and Deeton talked about seventy thousand
Speaker 3: dollars back in twenty ten. If you you know, money
Speaker 3: increased happiness up to making about seventy thousand dollars a year,
Speaker 3: and then after it it didn't have as much of
Speaker 3: an effect. Killingsworth said, well, not exactly. There are some
Speaker 3: people who are making more money does make them more happy,
Speaker 3: but maybe it's not to the same extent that the
Speaker 3: first seventy thousand does. I want to compare those studies
Speaker 3: to the Harvard Adult DEVELOPMENTTAL Health Study, which I think
Speaker 3: is a bigger, more important study. One of the reasons
Speaker 3: I think it's bigger and more important is because it
Speaker 3: went on for eighty years. So it started back in
Speaker 3: the early nineteen hundreds. They grabbed Harvard students and started
Speaker 3: doing questionnaires every two years. Eventually they brought in their
Speaker 3: family members. Eventually they then added in thousands of controls
Speaker 3: from the Boston area. They basically study these people for
Speaker 3: eighty years. They started by doing questionnaires, Eventually they did
Speaker 3: blood tests, MRIs EEGs, They looked at their income at
Speaker 3: various times in their life, and when they finished, their
Speaker 3: conclusion is there was one thing that was clearly and
Speaker 3: obviously positively correlated with happiness. And it wasn't money. It
Speaker 3: wasn't career, it wasn't achievements, believe it or not, it
Speaker 3: wasn't even purpose. It was interpersonal connections. Interpersonal connections is
Speaker 3: what makes people happy. Now you just heard me say
Speaker 3: it wasn't purpose. But what about all that data that
Speaker 3: show that purpose is associated with health, longevity, and happiness. Well,
Speaker 3: here's my belief. If you practice little P purpose, well
Speaker 3: it becomes a conduit to building communities and connections. It's
Speaker 3: all interpersonal relationships, and I think the way we get
Speaker 3: there is little P purpose. I think that's that connection
Speaker 3: to happiness. Money is great, and if you are trying
Speaker 3: to build the life you want to live, having enough money,
Speaker 3: for instance, to pay someone to clean your house, or
Speaker 3: to work four days a week instead of five, or
Speaker 3: to get rid of as many things you can as
Speaker 3: possible that you loathe. If you can get rid of
Speaker 3: all those things with money, it becomes an incredible tool.
Speaker 3: But of course most of us don't have tons of money,
Speaker 3: especially if you're at the beginning of your career. So
Speaker 3: I want to remind people that money is just one
Speaker 3: of the tools. We also have a bunch of other ones,
Speaker 3: like our relationships, our youth, our energy, our passions, our skills.
Speaker 3: Those are all tools and we can use those two
Speaker 3: to also pursue a life of purpose. So Money's great,
Speaker 3: but it's not the only way to get there.
Speaker 1: So you're highlighting something too though, when it comes to
Speaker 1: money and its impact on our purpose, Like, just the
Speaker 1: further along you get towards financial independence and the more
Speaker 1: I think restrained you can be, especially some of those
Speaker 1: bigger line items, let's say a mortgage or rent or
Speaker 1: the cars that you own. It means you can potentially
Speaker 1: say no to a five day work week and have
Speaker 1: the four day work week so that you can pursue
Speaker 1: hobbies that you love with a community you care about
Speaker 1: more deeply, Like, instead of funneling, potentially tell me your
Speaker 1: thoughts on this more money towards bigger purchases that maybe
Speaker 1: we think are going to put a smile on our face,
Speaker 1: we should be thinking about it in kind of an
Speaker 1: inverted way.
Speaker 3: I think winning the game is trying to control time.
Speaker 3: But you and I know we can't control time. It's impossible.
Speaker 3: Time passes no matter what we do. The only thing
Speaker 3: we can do is fill that time with more or
Speaker 3: less purposeful activity. So winning the game is basically looking
Speaker 3: at your calendar and breaking that calendar down into time segments,
Speaker 3: whether we're talking about days, months, or years and filling
Speaker 3: as many of them as possible with things you love,
Speaker 3: little p purpose and getting rid of things you loathe.
Speaker 3: And so we have a bunch of tools to do that.
Speaker 3: And like we said, money is a great one. So
Speaker 3: the smarter you are with your money, the more you're
Speaker 3: a valuist, the more you spend money on what's important
Speaker 3: to you and don't spend it on what's not important
Speaker 3: to you, the more you're going to have left over
Speaker 3: to use as a tool to live a more purposeful life.
Speaker 3: But again, I want to make sure people who don't
Speaker 3: have money realize that you have other tools and it
Speaker 3: behooves you to start using them today. So, for instance,
Speaker 3: if you are twenty five years old and you don't
Speaker 3: love your job and you feel like you can't pursue purpose,
Speaker 3: but if you had a little extra time, maybe you
Speaker 3: could start doing more purposeful things. Well, maybe you can
Speaker 3: use one of your other tools. Maybe you have family
Speaker 3: that lives in the area and you can stop renting apartments,
Speaker 3: start living with them and save enough each month to
Speaker 3: work four days out a week instead of five. You're
Speaker 3: still twenty five years old, you're still a little bit
Speaker 3: strapped for your finances, but now you've been able to
Speaker 3: change the game using a tool other than money, in
Speaker 3: this case your connections, your family to live a better life.
Speaker 3: And with that extra day a week you now have,
Speaker 3: you can fill it with something purposeful, and that's winning
Speaker 3: the game. We use the joy of addition ad in
Speaker 3: purposeful activities. We use the art of subtraction get rid
Speaker 3: of things we loathe, and we do it over and
Speaker 3: over again, wash, rinse, repeat, every week, month or year
Speaker 3: until our schedule looks more like things we love and
Speaker 3: very little like things we don't want to do.
Speaker 2: And that example that you just shared, though, what's so
Speaker 2: fascinating about that is I think there are very few
Speaker 2: twenty five year olds out there who would hear you
Speaker 2: say that and actually follow through and do it right,
Speaker 2: like because they have co opted mainstream media and what
Speaker 2: is quote unquote successful out there. It takes courage, like
Speaker 2: it takes guts, And I'll just be honest, like, I
Speaker 2: just don't see many people doing the kind of quote
Speaker 2: unquote crazy thing out there. And like, oftentimes, I think
Speaker 2: there are just so many distractions that are lives that
Speaker 2: keep us from sort of doing some of that self examination.
Speaker 2: Like I'm even thinking about technology you know, how much
Speaker 2: blame do you think lies there that has potentially prevented us,
Speaker 2: maybe from self examining even more as to what it
Speaker 2: is us bringing about purpose and happiness in our lives.
Speaker 3: I think a huge amount, because as long as we
Speaker 3: are trying to find our purpose instead of looking deeper
Speaker 3: inside and realizing what lights us up. As long as
Speaker 3: we're trying to find our purpose, there are going to
Speaker 3: be tons of outlets that are willing to give us
Speaker 3: this version of purpose. And usually it's big and audacious,
Speaker 3: and usually it benefits them and not you. But unless
Speaker 3: you start getting really thoughtful about this, you're going to
Speaker 3: be fed what other people want to feed you. And
Speaker 3: you have to be really clear about these decisions, especially
Speaker 3: if you don't have a lot of that tool of money.
Speaker 3: You got to be really clear about these decisions if
Speaker 3: you want to start improving that calculus of your schedule
Speaker 3: and doing more things you love and less things you loathe.
Speaker 3: But here's the magic and the excitement. Once you understand it,
Speaker 3: you start realizing there are millions of things you could do.
Speaker 3: What else could you do? Well? You know, if your
Speaker 3: company lets you go virtual, you could move to another country,
Speaker 3: a country that costs less, and yet you're still making
Speaker 3: your salary from the US and boom, before you know it,
Speaker 3: your expenses are down fifty percent, but you're still making
Speaker 3: the same money. You now have more of that tool
Speaker 3: of money. You could do a bunch of different things,
Speaker 3: and I could go on and on their abundant ways
Speaker 3: to build purpose in your life. But we've been sold
Speaker 3: this bill of goods that purpose is difficult and big
Speaker 3: and painful and hard to find until we accept the
Speaker 3: fact that it's actually abundant and obvious, and all we
Speaker 3: have to do is start building around it. Once we
Speaker 3: start accepting that, it gets a lot easier.
Speaker 1: Talk to us about what you call the climb. You
Speaker 1: say that it's the concept of purpose into action. And
Speaker 1: since you know, I think you've done a really good
Speaker 1: job at making purpose feel more relatable and doable and
Speaker 1: actually maybe like a smaller endeavor than maybe people previously
Speaker 1: thought it was, which is which is good to know,
Speaker 1: especially as we're starting off a new year and people
Speaker 1: are like, how do Yeah, this is a question thatsaw
Speaker 1: people's mind. What's the climb and how can that help?
Speaker 3: So the climb is exactly that, it's purpose and action
Speaker 3: So when people are trying to find their purpose, like
Speaker 3: we said, actually the better activity is to connect with
Speaker 3: your purpose anchors. But here's where it gets a touch difficult.
Speaker 3: Once you know it feels like purpose in your life
Speaker 3: and ancher, you then have to build a life of
Speaker 3: purpose around it. That is the climb. And for any
Speaker 3: purpose anger, you could do an infinite number of climes.
Speaker 3: So Joel really liked basketball when he was a kid.
Speaker 3: He's now an adult and feeling like his life is
Speaker 3: not as purposeful as he wanted to be. He knows
Speaker 3: a purpose anchor for him as basketball. What could be
Speaker 3: a number of climes he could build around that, depending
Speaker 3: on what his interests are and where they lie. Well,
Speaker 3: Joel could play basketball. He could join a basketball league
Speaker 3: every week of people like him, professionals. Maybe he could
Speaker 3: find a podcasting basketball league. I mean, as crazy as
Speaker 3: that sounds, that could be a climb for him, and
Speaker 3: that could feel really purposeful. It could connect him to
Speaker 3: other people, it could increase the enjoyment in his life.
Speaker 3: But you're saying Joel doesn't like playing anymore and his
Speaker 3: knees hurt. Well, maybe Joel could start writing a blog
Speaker 3: about basketball. Maybe he could do a basketball podcast. Maybe
Speaker 3: he could start the Chicago Bulls fan club because we
Speaker 3: know he loves Chicago, and who else would you ceer on? So,
Speaker 3: I mean, there are so many different things he could
Speaker 3: do related to basketball, and those are all different climbs.
Speaker 3: And here's the magic. All he has to do is
Speaker 3: start building a life around that purpose anchor. And if
Speaker 3: he doesn't enjoy the climb, jump off the mountain and
Speaker 3: start a new one. That's it.
Speaker 1: So is a climb sort of like brainstorming in regards
Speaker 1: to well the.
Speaker 3: I those action. I think purpose anchors are kind of
Speaker 3: like the brainstorming. The climb is very action based. It's
Speaker 3: actually doing something very nice.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna take a quick break, and I'm not
Speaker 2: even sure where the conversation is gonna get because I've
Speaker 2: got multiple questions for you, Jordan, But we'll get to
Speaker 2: all that and more right after this. We are back
Speaker 2: from the break, still talking about finding fulfillment with Jordan
Speaker 2: Grummitt and Jordan. Before the break, we're talking about how
Speaker 2: like a lack of money, or first of all money
Speaker 2: generally speaking, you were presenting it essentially as a tool
Speaker 2: when it comes to pursuing our purpose there are multi like,
Speaker 2: we've got a whole tool belt full of tools, and
Speaker 2: the one tool that Joel and I talked the most
Speaker 2: about is money. That's out of money. But I feel
Speaker 2: like there might be some younger folks out there who
Speaker 2: are thinking, Okay, yeah, you can say that you guys
Speaker 2: and your y'all are middle aged men, you've had a
Speaker 2: successful career quote unquote successful. I don't know how successfully
Speaker 2: I would call myself, but it kind of sounds like
Speaker 2: an old man's game, and I guess I want to
Speaker 2: put a little pin in a criticism that might get
Speaker 2: lobbed our way where it's like, sure, you can afford
Speaker 2: to have these kind of conversations later in life. You've
Speaker 2: got money invested in the market. Oh great, Yeah, the
Speaker 2: market's up thirty percent. I'm glad you're able to enjoy
Speaker 2: that after having invested for twenty years. I'm not in
Speaker 2: that kind of position. Do you think that at the
Speaker 2: stage of life that we are in, that we are
Speaker 2: over indexing some of those other tools like youth, energy skills,
Speaker 2: things like that, because the fact is you can do
Speaker 2: a lot with the right amount of money at a
Speaker 2: pretty early age.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say, as we get older, we're under indexing
Speaker 3: those other tools in over indexing money, which is fine
Speaker 3: because we're in this place, hopefully of privilege, where we
Speaker 3: have a little money. But I think what you're really
Speaker 3: getting to is that privilege discussion.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I'm twenty two, I'm working sixty hours a week. There's
Speaker 3: no way I have enough money to do what you
Speaker 3: old wealthy guys are doing. And so the argument there
Speaker 3: again goes back to the tools and the levers. We
Speaker 3: have all all these tools. Our youth and our energy
Speaker 3: are great tools, by the way, and then we have levers,
Speaker 3: which are the joy of addition, the art of subtraction
Speaker 3: and substitution. So let me give you an example. Twenty
Speaker 3: two year old working for a non for profit. I
Speaker 3: talk about this guy in my book. Hates his job
Speaker 3: but has to make enough money to put food on
Speaker 3: the table, and feels lost like he's a victim of
Speaker 3: this life and there's no way he has time or
Speaker 3: energy to pursue purpose. First and foremost, let's just talk
Speaker 3: about time real quick. The US Bureau of Labor Statistics
Speaker 3: does the Time Survey every bunch of years and basically
Speaker 3: shows your average American has five hours of free time
Speaker 3: a day, and in fact, the lower socioeconomic classes have
Speaker 3: slightly more. So I don't think time is really the reason.
Speaker 3: So let's talk about money. Well, as a twenty two
Speaker 3: year old, this person I talk about my book doesn't
Speaker 3: have some of the things that I have, Like I'm
Speaker 3: fifty one, i have kids, i have a mortgage, i'm married.
Speaker 3: But at twenty two you have some of these tools
Speaker 3: of your youth and your energy. You might not have
Speaker 3: a lot you have to do on a sadder or
Speaker 3: a Sunday. So this person went and they started thinking
Speaker 3: about their purpose anchors, like what's important to me, what
Speaker 3: excites me. They use this exercise of looking at their
Speaker 3: joys of childhood and realized that they loved bike racing.
Speaker 3: It was something they did in high school and because
Speaker 3: they didn't have much money then either, they became really
Speaker 3: a droit at fixing their own bike. So what does
Speaker 3: this person do well, they say, well, I can use
Speaker 3: the joy of edition and I'm working sixty hours a
Speaker 3: week and that's not making me happy. But I can
Speaker 3: add in something joyful on Sunday because I'm young and
Speaker 3: I have some energy, and I don't have a family,
Speaker 3: so I'm going to go to the local bike track
Speaker 3: and I'm going to offer to fix people's bikes for pay,
Speaker 3: something I love doing and I love being at the
Speaker 3: racetrack and I love hanging out with those people. And
Speaker 3: let's say that person does that for six months. One
Speaker 3: of two things happens. Either they make no money at it,
Speaker 3: but they're still winning the game because now all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, they're spending three or four hours on Sunday
Speaker 3: doing something more purposeful than they were. So they use
Speaker 3: the joy of addition to add purposeful activity in the
Speaker 3: And remember when we talk about that calculus of your schedule,
Speaker 3: over many, many, many years, you are bringing in more
Speaker 3: purposeful activity in your life. But let's say the other
Speaker 3: thing happens in he does start making some money, and
Speaker 3: let's say that money gives him a little margin that
Speaker 3: he can start working four days a week instead of five,
Speaker 3: or maybe eight hours a day instead of ten. Basically,
Speaker 3: then you're using the art of subtraction to get rid
Speaker 3: of something you don't enjoy, which is work. So joy
Speaker 3: of addition to add in purposeful activity, art of subtraction
Speaker 3: to get rid of activity you loathe, and you're winning
Speaker 3: the game. And if a twenty two year old can
Speaker 3: do that. Think about over the weeks and months and
Speaker 3: years of our career, how we can continuously improve things
Speaker 3: so that we are doing less we loathe and more
Speaker 3: we love. And so that's the power and the magic
Speaker 3: of understanding what your purpose anchors are and starting to
Speaker 3: build these climbs around them is it makes you super adaptable,
Speaker 3: and it improves your life. And just imagine if you
Speaker 3: practice this threat right your twenties, how good in your
Speaker 3: thirties and forties you're going to be at this And
Speaker 3: in the meantime, if they listen to your podcast and
Speaker 3: start spending wisely and saving and investing in all the
Speaker 3: things you guys are talking about, they're not going to
Speaker 3: only be crafty with all these other tools in their
Speaker 3: tool about, but they're also going to have plenty of money,
Speaker 3: and then it becomes super powerful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you were talking about my love for basketball
Speaker 1: as a kid. I don't really love basketball anymore. Honestly,
Speaker 1: If I have nothing to do with basketball for the
Speaker 1: rest of my life, that's okay, except for maybe the
Speaker 1: occasional pickup game with friends or something like that. But
Speaker 1: I found other things that kind of light the fire
Speaker 1: under me that I would have said five years ago
Speaker 1: not interested in, and now for some reason, they're this
Speaker 1: meaningful part of my life that take a good portion
Speaker 1: of my life. How does purpose change and morph over time?
Speaker 1: And how do we know maybe when to kind of
Speaker 1: like subtract or add something in that maybe isn't kind
Speaker 1: of hitting that same sweet spot that it used to be.
Speaker 3: It's all about simplicity. Purpose are the actions in the
Speaker 3: present and future that light you up. Can be big
Speaker 3: or small, It can be long term or short term.
Speaker 3: It can immediately impact the world, but it certainly doesn't
Speaker 3: have to. There are no rules other than you like
Speaker 3: the process of doing what you're doing, and so then
Speaker 3: it just becomes the comparison game. This thing feels purposeful.
Speaker 3: I love and enjoy doing these activities until I don't,
Speaker 3: and then I stop doing those activities and start doing
Speaker 3: other ones. And there'll be times when you have different
Speaker 3: purpose anchors in your life and you build climes around them,
Speaker 3: and you'll find one climb becomes more dominant than the others,
Speaker 3: and in fact, you stop doing some of those other
Speaker 3: climes because this one is filling you up and lighting
Speaker 3: you up more. Here's the thing that's all totally okay.
Speaker 3: There are no rules other than fill your time with
Speaker 3: more stuff you love and less stuff you loathe. So
Speaker 3: you're going to continuously being the joy of addition and
Speaker 3: the art of subtraction and substitution the rest of your life,
Speaker 3: and that's totally fine. You can't go wrong here. There's
Speaker 3: almost no way to fail once you look at it
Speaker 3: this way.
Speaker 2: Do you think that there is any like inherent virtue
Speaker 2: to like you're talking about dropping or you know, the
Speaker 2: artist subtraction right, dropping certain anchors adopting new ones. Do
Speaker 2: you think there's anything that's inherently virtuous about sticking with
Speaker 2: a certain anchor over a longer period of time or
Speaker 2: for a duration as opposed to what some folks, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I'm just making this up, but might call
Speaker 2: it like anchor hopping to borrow your terminology. But as
Speaker 2: they're going from one thing to the next, only giving
Speaker 2: it maybe a couple of years before maybe moving on
Speaker 2: or even finding themselves that they're drawn to something else.
Speaker 2: I'm curious to get your thoughts there.
Speaker 3: So here's the deal. When you do something that lights
Speaker 3: you up, that's when you're gonna have maximal impact and legacy,
Speaker 3: You're gonna connect to more people, You're gonna do more
Speaker 3: meaningful collaborations, You're gonna eventually touch more people. So here's
Speaker 3: the thing. You kind of have to go with how
Speaker 3: you feel. So if you are a purpose anchor hopper
Speaker 3: or a climb hopper, but that's you know, but it
Speaker 3: fills you up for a certain amount of time, then
Speaker 3: it stops filling you up. If you stick with that
Speaker 3: thing that isn't filling you up for some kind of
Speaker 3: larger goal, it goes from being little pea purpose the
Speaker 3: really healthy kind of big p purpose, and you're gonna
Speaker 3: burn out and it's not gonna light you up anymore,
Speaker 3: and you're not going to impact people as much, and
Speaker 3: it's not going to feel as meaningful. And so I
Speaker 3: think it just depends on who you are as a person.
Speaker 3: There is no virtue in sticking with something that's lost
Speaker 3: its thrill just in service of some type of big,
Speaker 3: audacious goal, because ultimately you'll leave. And that's the same thing.
Speaker 3: I could have said the same thing about medicine. Maybe
Speaker 3: I should have stuck with medicine because my ability to
Speaker 3: help people and change the world was greater, But the
Speaker 3: longer I tried to do that. The more I burned out.
Speaker 3: When I started doing things I loved, like podcasting and
Speaker 3: public speaking and blogging, something strange happened. I might affect
Speaker 3: a thousand patients a year at most, but when I
Speaker 3: started blogging and podcasting and public speaking, I started affecting
Speaker 3: thousands and thousands and thousands of people more because I
Speaker 3: was doing something that lit me up. That was never
Speaker 3: my plan, that was never my goal, but I ended
Speaker 3: up attracting detracting people because like a moth to a flame,
Speaker 3: and they saw me lit up and they wanted to
Speaker 3: be involved. And that's what led to all these collaborations
Speaker 3: and to all these guests on my podcast and eventually
Speaker 3: getting an agent and books and all of that came
Speaker 3: from doing things that lit me up, and I ended
Speaker 3: up having more of an impact than being a doctor.
Speaker 3: But I would have never known that at the start.
Speaker 1: Drilled down a little bit on kind of your journey
Speaker 1: with purpose, because in the book, you make it sound
Speaker 1: like the first forty years of your life were not purposeless,
Speaker 1: but that you had a hard time figuring out what
Speaker 1: your purpose was. But now it sounds like you're like
Speaker 1: living in it and living your best life.
Speaker 3: So here's the thing. When my dad died, he was
Speaker 3: an oncologist, a doctor. I felt responsible because I was
Speaker 3: seven years old. He had a brain in years man
Speaker 3: nothing to do with me, But seven year olds kind
Speaker 3: of see life through the lens of they are everything.
Speaker 3: So I figured he died because I wasn't enough or
Speaker 3: something was wrong with me, and I thought I could
Speaker 3: cosmically fix that becoming a doctor like him. So I
Speaker 3: had a big, audacious purpose. I wanted to fix his death,
Speaker 3: and the way I was going to do that was
Speaker 3: to become a doctor. So I co opted his version
Speaker 3: of purpose, thinking that would make me happy. Now, I'll
Speaker 3: tell you, there was a lot of joy in this
Speaker 3: idea of becoming a doctor and the excitement about it.
Speaker 3: And I loved studying and all those things. So it
Speaker 3: wasn't that it didn't fill me up in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't a waste.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a waste. But as I got older, I
Speaker 3: realized that those things I thought it was it wasn't like.
Speaker 3: I became a doctor and guess what, I didn't fix
Speaker 3: my father's death. It didn't work. So instead I was
Speaker 3: doing these things, which by the time I was practicing.
Speaker 3: I realized I didn't enjoy the process of doing them.
Speaker 3: So I was filling my time doing things I didn't
Speaker 3: like in order to reach a goal that was pretty
Speaker 3: much impossible. And so that's how I started to finally
Speaker 3: realize something's wrong here. And I knew because you know,
Speaker 3: I didn't have a lot of doctor friends, like I
Speaker 3: wasn't building the community and connections because this identity, the
Speaker 3: sense of purpose, wasn't fitting me. I didn't like hanging
Speaker 3: out with doctors. I didn't like telling people that I
Speaker 3: was a doctor. I was almost embarrassed, strangely enough, when
Speaker 3: I started pursuing what really felt like little purpose py
Speaker 3: purpose to me because I knew I liked writing and
Speaker 3: blogging and podcasting, and when I started doing that stuff,
Speaker 3: I started to connecting to people like you guys, and
Speaker 3: I was like, I found my people, because after ten
Speaker 3: or fifteen minutes of talking to fellow bloggers and podcasters,
Speaker 3: I felt like I knew them more than I do.
Speaker 3: Doctors I had known for decades, and so I wouldn't
Speaker 3: say that the beginning of my life was purpose less.
Speaker 3: I think I was pursuing a version of purpose that
Speaker 3: ultimately wasn't going to make me happy, and that's why
Speaker 3: I had to pivot.
Speaker 2: All the while you were still able to provide value
Speaker 2: to the world. It's not like you were some sort
Speaker 2: of leech on society, Jordan, but like, and it did.
Speaker 3: Fill me up. I mean, I you know, even the
Speaker 3: things I do now, Like I wrote a book about
Speaker 3: what the hospice patients can teach us about money and life.
Speaker 3: So clearly this has had a huge impact on me,
Speaker 3: my ability to tell stories, and some of the lessons
Speaker 3: that I now put in my books are all gleeding
Speaker 3: from that time as a doctor. And so again, remember
Speaker 3: we talk about the different difference between meaning and purpose.
Speaker 3: I tell myself a heroic story. I say, I went
Speaker 3: into this thing that didn't suit me, but look at
Speaker 3: all this bounty that came from it. I wasn't thwarted,
Speaker 3: I wasn't a victim. I lived a magical life, and
Speaker 3: that life has brought me here where I get to
Speaker 3: do these things which are amazing and exciting. My sense
Speaker 3: of meaning. The story I tell myself about myself is
Speaker 3: a heroic journey, and so I can't imagine looking at
Speaker 3: it and saying, boy, that was a waste all.
Speaker 1: Right, last question. So the Fire movement is all about
Speaker 1: financial independence, retire early. It's like saving sixty seventy percent
Speaker 1: of my income so that I can you retire at
Speaker 1: thirty eight or thirty six or whatever it is. And
Speaker 1: you know, I get why that's appealing. But sometimes in
Speaker 1: order to be able to live the purpose you want to,
Speaker 1: especially in some of those really important years where you
Speaker 1: have typically better health, you have your youth, that fire.
Speaker 1: There's a big trade off that comes from working extra,
Speaker 1: banking extra, and maybe missing out on things that would
Speaker 1: provide fulfillment. So how do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: I see like some serious flaws and it seems like
Speaker 1: the fire movement has moderated in some ways. But the
Speaker 1: fulfillment versus fire or they like, I don't know, smashing
Speaker 1: heads a little bit.
Speaker 3: Well, here's the problem. I mean, fire is wonderful and
Speaker 3: I'm so glad I found financial independence because it gave
Speaker 3: me the vocabulary in the framework to build the financial future.
Speaker 3: On the other hand, it's very money focused, so what
Speaker 3: you're really doing is focusing on the tool. So you're
Speaker 3: making a trade off. You're saying, I'm going to spend
Speaker 3: a lot of time not doing things that are important
Speaker 3: to me to make money so that one day I
Speaker 3: can stop working at making money and then live this
Speaker 3: life of purpose and activities that I love doing and
Speaker 3: things that light me up. So you're making this intentional decision,
Speaker 3: which is wonderful if you are for sure going to
Speaker 3: live to eighty or ninety and for sure are going
Speaker 3: to succeed, and for sure don't mind putting off some
Speaker 3: of your life. Like you know it so happens when
Speaker 3: you're in your twenties. A lot of time that's the
Speaker 3: first time you meet your spouse, right, so it's a
Speaker 3: season of your life that doesn't come back that honeymoon
Speaker 3: phase and like you cannot go on awesome vacations and
Speaker 3: you can spend weekends and nights in the office instead
Speaker 3: of spending time with that spouse. But once that time
Speaker 3: is gone, for instance, once you have children, that time
Speaker 3: of being newlyweds or together without children is gone. Do
Speaker 3: you want to miss that season of your life because
Speaker 3: you've decided that building this tool of money is more
Speaker 3: important than living life. Now to be really intentional about
Speaker 3: that decision, I think grinding it out is okay on
Speaker 3: some level, especially if you're very intentional, but if you
Speaker 3: take it to an extreme, you miss out on all
Speaker 3: the good stuff, and sometimes those seasons pass and you
Speaker 3: can't get it back, or God forbid, you're like my
Speaker 3: dad and you die when you're forty and never really
Speaker 3: get to use that tool of wealth to live the
Speaker 3: life you want to live. So I want to empower
Speaker 3: people to feel like they can start building purpose in
Speaker 3: their life now, whether they have enough money or not,
Speaker 3: but also build a financial framework around it so that
Speaker 3: they can begin now today when they're twenty two or
Speaker 3: twenty five or thirty, but then they can continue improving
Speaker 3: the calculus of that calendar, building up enough money to
Speaker 3: use it as a powerful tool to get rid of
Speaker 3: things you loathe, to build in more things you like.
Speaker 3: It's all an iterative process. But I wouldn't want people
Speaker 3: to just give up on purpose early in life because
Speaker 3: they think they got to grind it out and reach
Speaker 3: fire first, because you just don't know what the future
Speaker 3: is going to bring or even if you'll live to
Speaker 3: that vaunted time that you reach financial independence. And some
Speaker 3: people never make it to financial independence, and I don't
Speaker 3: want that to preclude them from living a good life today.
Speaker 2: Man Well said I personally feel empowered based on what
Speaker 2: you're saying here, Jordan, and it's man, it's so true,
Speaker 2: like it's so much about trade offs, and you said
Speaker 2: something else do just about this being an iterative process,
Speaker 2: the fact that I think for folks to hear that
Speaker 2: they're not necessarily going to get it right straight out
Speaker 2: of the gate, but that this is something that we
Speaker 2: continue to refine and something that we revisit over the
Speaker 2: years to see what it is that's going to make
Speaker 2: the biggest impact in our lives and our families, lives
Speaker 2: and our community, all of the above. But Jordan, we
Speaker 2: really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today.
Speaker 2: We will certainly make sure to link to your book,
Speaker 2: which came out yesterday actually, and so we'll link to
Speaker 2: that in the show notes. Anywhere else you want folks
Speaker 2: to go to learn more about you and what's going on.
Speaker 3: Easiest place to go is Jordan Grummitt dot com. That's
Speaker 3: j O R D A N G r U met.
Speaker 3: There you can find links to both my books, taking
Speaker 3: Stock and now the Purpose Code, as well as all
Speaker 3: the places I create content, including the Earned and invest
Speaker 3: podcasts and the Purpose Code substack check me out Jordan
Speaker 3: Grummitt dot com.
Speaker 1: Nice Jordan, always a pleasure man, Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me man.
Speaker 2: Always so fun to talk with our friend Jordan Grummitt. No,
Speaker 2: but what was your big takeaway though with our conversation?
Speaker 1: Man, there's so much overlap between kind of what Jordan
Speaker 1: talks about and we talk more about the money stuff.
Speaker 1: But we want that purpose and meaning to infuse everything
Speaker 1: that we talk about instead of just talking about the
Speaker 1: nuts and bolts of moneies and roth I rais And
Speaker 1: that obviously plays a part because we want to make
Speaker 1: money progress, but it should get specific, Yeah, but it
Speaker 1: should influence I think the overarching goals and purpose of
Speaker 1: our life agreed. And when he talks about community and connections,
Speaker 1: I think that's spot on, right, because even if you
Speaker 1: get into something a new athletic endeavor or a new hobby, like,
Speaker 1: the connections you can make inside of that world are
Speaker 1: typically the most fulfill part of it. Like, yeah, do
Speaker 1: you like pickleball?
Speaker 2: Cool?
Speaker 1: It's a fun sport, right, But maybe the most fun
Speaker 1: thing is when you on Saturday mornings at six am
Speaker 1: get up and play with this big group of folks
Speaker 1: who also love it and then you hang out and
Speaker 1: have coffee afterwards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I think personally, I think that's why
Speaker 2: pick a Ball has taken off in our country like
Speaker 2: it has over the past few years, because it has
Speaker 2: that social connectivity community with settlement. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of times folks may not even realize that, but like
Speaker 2: that's what they're drawn to. It's the less this little
Speaker 2: silly game that they're playing with paddles.
Speaker 1: Same thing with Triple f right, which is like the
Speaker 1: workout based and people say, oh, yeah, the workout's fine,
Speaker 1: but it's the man that the relationships I've developed by
Speaker 1: going to that have been instrumental to like my life
Speaker 1: and so yeah, one of my friends he says, all
Speaker 1: my wealth is in relationships. I like the idea of
Speaker 1: growing monetary wealth, obviously because of the podcast we do,
Speaker 1: but I think that's not a bad motto to have
Speaker 1: for your life, is for your relational connections to be
Speaker 1: pre eminent, because I think that that will influence purpose.
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, Jordan boiled down to
Speaker 1: that as being one of the foremost reasons for happiness.
Speaker 1: So sure, and I think this time of year too,
Speaker 1: purpose over goals That's why we wanted to have Jordan on.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: There's so much talk about goals, goal setting, what are
Speaker 1: you going to accomplish this year?
Speaker 2: And those are the yeah, those are the big pie's yeah,
Speaker 2: which are good to have, but then it can oftentimes
Speaker 2: leave you burnt out and feeling kind of demoralized. That's right.
Speaker 1: So I think that talking more about purpose and being
Speaker 1: more introspective about that could potentially get you where you
Speaker 1: want to go this year more than maybe some crusty
Speaker 1: old goal setting agenda that you were thinking about trying out.
Speaker 2: Nice Okay, so my big takeaway is going to be
Speaker 2: so he talked a lot about purpose anchors, which are
Speaker 2: the things that we can kind of like latch onto,
Speaker 2: you know, like like picture like an anchor that goes
Speaker 2: into a wall, or even like a boat anchor, right,
Speaker 2: and building your life around these things that bring you fulfillment.
Speaker 2: And at some point he was talking about going with
Speaker 2: how it is that you feel when it comes to
Speaker 2: identifying these things, which kind of raise their red flagma
Speaker 2: mic because I'm just like Van, what do we know
Speaker 2: about feelings? They are fickle and like one day you
Speaker 2: might love something, the next day you might hate it,
Speaker 2: but ultimately you might find yourself over analyzing it, and
Speaker 2: I think what instead, what you need to do is
Speaker 2: focus on the things that bring you enjoyment, like over
Speaker 2: the long haul. Like think about it like the stock market.
Speaker 2: We're not talking about what is it that is going
Speaker 2: up into the right just in one day, but zoom
Speaker 2: out like zoom out over a week, over a month,
Speaker 2: over a year, even over decades, and what is the
Speaker 2: activity or the purpose anchor that pretty much is going
Speaker 2: to constantly lead to you going up into the right.
Speaker 2: Another analogy is makes me think about like a tattoo.
Speaker 2: I don't have any tattoos, but if I were to
Speaker 2: get a tattoo, and I've even said this to Kate before,
Speaker 2: it would need to be something that I'm never going
Speaker 2: to change my mind on because I don't want to
Speaker 2: have to go back in and get it like laser removed.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: My friends James their minds on tattoos, but there are
Speaker 2: very few things that would do that. But for me,
Speaker 2: it would be maybe faith based. It would be something
Speaker 2: family based. And I think that if there is something
Speaker 2: in your life that is that foundational.
Speaker 1: To bald eagle and American flag problem, you change your
Speaker 1: mind on America.
Speaker 2: Math even still, who knows, maybe I'll end up moving
Speaker 2: to a different country depending on the state of become
Speaker 2: a front file. But I think it's fine to identify
Speaker 2: some of these like major purpose anchors that you can
Speaker 2: kind of build your life around, or again, don't overthink it,
Speaker 2: Like what's something that just lights you up right without
Speaker 2: getting overly analytical about it? And I think by taking
Speaker 2: small baby steps like the example he gave at the beginning,
Speaker 2: like this, the whole swimming example, it's like, Okay, you
Speaker 2: don't have to get a like iron Man triathlon tattoo
Speaker 2: because now you're a hardcore swimmer. No, how about you
Speaker 2: just start by going one day a week with your
Speaker 2: buddy and going to swim, and maybe it turns into
Speaker 2: this other thing, but you haven't over committed to something
Speaker 2: like that, and don't be a f I guess maybe
Speaker 2: I'm speaking out of my own from my own perspective,
Speaker 2: but I would be afraid of like over committing to
Speaker 2: something and being like, well, I don't know if that's
Speaker 2: who I am, And it's like, well, doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be who you are. Just take some of these small
Speaker 2: baby steps in that direction, and then just see how
Speaker 2: whether or not that lights you up or not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think when he said the feelings thing, Matt,
Speaker 1: that also kind of hit me a little interesting, hit
Speaker 1: me a little weird, because I, Yeah, there are times
Speaker 1: where I don't feel great about coming into work on
Speaker 1: a certain day, even though overarchingly I love what we
Speaker 1: do exactly and I love the work that we get
Speaker 1: to create, and how the money is a big, p
Speaker 1: purpose a thing in my life. But you're right, there's
Speaker 1: the feelings don't always, shouldn't always dictate.
Speaker 2: Don't always align ye with maybe what it is you
Speaker 2: should be doing that longer term perspective. Yeah, which again,
Speaker 2: and maybe this is a good application with like the
Speaker 2: whole investing thing, but being able to zoom out identifying
Speaker 2: like an overarching trend as opposed to like the day
Speaker 2: to day gyrations of how you feel or even what
Speaker 2: the market's doing. For sure.
Speaker 1: But let's get back to the beer.
Speaker 2: A beer that was sent to us by Mary. Is
Speaker 2: it Mary Starboard?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's from Mary.
Speaker 2: She sent this to us as well as actually, should
Speaker 2: we mention not only does she send her husband's favorite beer,
Speaker 2: she sent us this all the Christmas decoration and by
Speaker 2: all the Christmas decoration. I literally mean it's this Christmas
Speaker 2: village miniature all day store that lights up when you
Speaker 2: turn it on. You know, like the Christmas village that
Speaker 2: you create with like people ice skating. Yeah, you got
Speaker 2: you kind of got the white fluff around. This is
Speaker 2: something to kind of like slip in there without being
Speaker 2: noticed in the background, next to some cottages or something
Speaker 2: like that. But she sent this our way, and.
Speaker 1: It's the only Christmas decoration we have, and so thank
Speaker 1: you Mary for We really should have put some tinsel
Speaker 1: or something up here, but we got We've got an
Speaker 1: Aldie store, which is actually perfectly fitting.
Speaker 2: Well, the question is how long do we leave this
Speaker 2: up in our office because we love aldi all year long.
Speaker 1: Well, we've talked about keeping our Christmas tree up all
Speaker 1: month of January. Really yeah, so just because it's too depressing.
Speaker 1: It's the most depressing month of the year, so like
Speaker 1: you got to have some sort of That's what Emily
Speaker 1: and I were literally just talking about this how December
Speaker 1: is so great because it's cold, but it's festive and
Speaker 1: there's lights everywhere, and January is the worst because it's
Speaker 1: cold and everyone's taking down their lights anyway prolonged.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the enjoyment, yeap. The beer. The beer though, that
Speaker 2: you and I enjoyed was a cold brewed coffee Logger
Speaker 2: by Steel Hands Brewing. But uh, yeah, what'd you think
Speaker 2: about this one?
Speaker 1: So this combines two of our favorite things. We love coffee,
Speaker 1: we love beer indeed, and usually coffee goes in stouts reporters,
Speaker 1: in bigger, darker, roastier beers, which makes sense. But you
Speaker 1: don't often get coffee in a lagger. So this is
Speaker 1: like a light beer with cold brew kind of infused
Speaker 1: into it. And I wasn't sure what I was going
Speaker 1: to think about this, but I liked it me too, Yeah, okay, nice,
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I was impressed. We both have basically yeah, finished hours
Speaker 2: by the end of our conversation with Jordan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's partly because the coffee didn't
Speaker 1: get overwhelmed in the same way that that it tends
Speaker 1: to do in some of those bigger thirteen percent stops
Speaker 1: or something like that, where there's all of these other
Speaker 1: notes going on. This was like coffee on top of
Speaker 1: a beer. But I feel like I got the coffee
Speaker 1: more so than I would in a lot of other
Speaker 1: coffee beer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was perfectly coffee while at the same time
Speaker 2: being perfectly beer. And I feel like oftentimes, yeah, there's like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, a mingling of the two. But it
Speaker 2: almost felt like these two were like separate as I
Speaker 2: was drinking it, Like the initial notes were totally coffee,
Speaker 2: but then you get like the better notes from from
Speaker 2: the hops there in the lagger. But I enjoyed this,
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, more than I was expecting. When I
Speaker 2: first I was just like, oh man, I'm not totally
Speaker 2: sure about this, but I would one hundred percent totally
Speaker 2: drink this, enjoy some of this coffee roasted coffee flavors
Speaker 2: without the hang up of maybe staying up too late
Speaker 2: due to the caffeine intake.
Speaker 1: But that's a good point.
Speaker 2: Really enjoyed it. Mary, Thank you so much for sending
Speaker 2: this this one our way. Well, like we said, we'll
Speaker 2: link to Jordan's book up on the website at howdomoney
Speaker 2: dot com. It is out and now be sure to
Speaker 2: check it out. But buddy, that's going to be it.
Speaker 2: So until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.