WEBVTT - Seizing Back Control From Corporate Algorithms 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:06.760 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:11.160 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.640 Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. So, Carol, I've been doing this 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.880 thought experiment. Hey, I've been asking parents. It's very informal, 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:22.120 it's anecdotal, asking parents of teens about a proposed TikTok ban. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.720 I've heard from all of them the same thing, literally 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.960 all of them. I hope they ban it. No standard deviation, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.520 there's no no And this is again not scientific. It's 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:32.639 just like, Okay, you have a kid, you have a teenager, 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:34.560 they have a phone, they're on TikTok all the time. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:36.160 Well, we know that option could be on the table 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:38.960 after the US House of Representatives today passed to build 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:41.640 a banned TikTok in the US unless it's Chinese owner 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.040 sells the video sharing app. But Tim, we know it's 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:45.839 not just TikTok that has its critics. 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.440 Yeah, people have really had this fraught relationship with all 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:50.880 different kinds of tech, hardware, software, you name it, their 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.920 digital talk, detox retreats. I tried to delete certain apps 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:55.720 on weekends so I don't pick up my phone and 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.520 scroll when I'm with my family. The question is how 0:00:58.560 --> 0:00:59.920 did we get here to a place where I really 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.400 ship with technology has become like this. Our next guest 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.560 has been thinking a lot about that and says he 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.600 has a solution. Frank mcot junior as chairman of McCourt Global. 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.000 It's a company with interest in real estate, sports, tech, 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.400 media and more. Frank also the founder and executive chairman 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.640 of Project Liberty, which is, in its own words, advancing 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.640 the responsible development of the Internet of tomorrow, designed and 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.399 governed for the comment good. He's also the author of 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.880 the brand new book Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity, 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.800 and dignity in the Digital Age. Frank, Welcome to Bloomberg 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:29.720 Business Week. How are you. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.160 I'm doing good. How are you both doing? 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.120 We're doing well. I'm interested because you're known for a 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:35.800 lot of things. You're the former owner and chair of 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.640 the La Dodgers, you own a French football club. You've 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.600 worked in construction and real estate for years. What happened 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:44.800 that prompted you to spend so much money and so 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.480 much time fighting the Internet as we know it? 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:48.000 Yeah? 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.360 So I wrote Our Biggest Fight to really shine light 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.880 on Project Liberty, which is a five hundred million dollar 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:00.880 initiative to reimagine how the Internet works and you know, 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:06.880 and really take back control of our data, which I 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.120 would say is really our personhood in this digital era 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.880 from the kind of the machines of big tech. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.079 Right, we're the machines, the machines. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:21.079 Look, we are connected to the Internet by an IP address. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.080 So let's start right there. Okay, the Internet is not 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.720 you and I connected, it's our device connected. It was 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.680 built to connect devices, machines, and that's how the Internet 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.520 came into being. And then thirty five years ago yesterday, 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.720 Tim berners Lee created the World Wide Web that was 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.800 to connect data. We have never been connected as people 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.040 on the Internet. So what I put forward in the 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.760 book is is now, knowing how powerful the Internet is 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.399 and how dependent we are on it, and how everything 0:02:55.440 --> 0:03:01.399 we do virtually is digitized, we need to reclaim ownership 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.480 of our digital our social graph, our digital information, our 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:09.799 relationships and so forth, because it's who we are. It's 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.959 not our data, it's who we are in the digital age. 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.239 And so I call that personhood, right, and it's our 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.480 digital DNA is as important as our biological DNA. It's 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.120 our lived archive. Why on Earth would we give that 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.600 up just for the right of using the internet. We 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:30.840 need an internet where we're in charge, we're owning and controlling, 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:35.080 so to speak, our data, and we reclaim that that personhood. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:36.680 Well safe to say we didn't know we were giving 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:38.040 it up, right, We just thought, Wow, this is a 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:39.560 really cool thing, and look at all the things we 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.839 can do. And many would argue right at the same 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.680 time that the Internet and that connectivity has allowed us 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.480 to do so much more and learn so much more 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.160 about the other. But then there's the dark side and 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.240 bad side to it. Is there though? Can we I mean, 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.800 the horse has left the barn in a long you know, 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.880 a long time ago, Frank, Can we kind of regain 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.839 in our digital identity? Can we go back? Yeah? 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.840 We must, We can, and we must. And I do 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.520 want to focus on something first before I get to 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.920 that solution and so forth. And I do think we 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:14.720 are learning more and more about the harms, right, we 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:16.640 hear them every day and. 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.039 This we talk about it all the time, and it's. 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.839 Just going to get worse as a generative AI enters 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.000 the picture, because a broken technology made more powerful will 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.200 just make the problems worse. But I want to just 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:30.960 highlight one thing you said, you know, there are a 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.200 lot of good things and then some bad things. I 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.120 hear that a lot that we kind of somehow think 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:41.000 of this technology differently than we would think of For instance, 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.520 let's say we were sitting here and some municipality had 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:51.159 a water system that was putting water into a million homes, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.400 and you were reporting today that four hundred thousand of 0:04:55.400 --> 0:05:00.240 those homes were getting toxic water. That we're making the 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.599 households sick and killing some kids. Okay, would we sit 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.040 here and say, well, yeah, but it's it's putting clean 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.279 water in six hundred thousand homes. So kind of on bound? 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:15.280 Why are we so tolerant of the harms of technology? 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.000 Look at the Internet is ours, it's our data. We 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.719 should be in charge. Why would we want machines to 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.359 drag us into a future we don't want. Let's just 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:29.480 take them inute, fix it, and then make it more powerful, 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:31.920 and we fix it by putting individuals in control. I'm 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:32.680 happy to talk about. 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.919 So in this case, in this analogy, what are what's 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.080 what's the toxic water? What's what are the harms being done? 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.120 So? Yeah, so so where to begin? 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:41.440 Right? 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:42.719 So let's think about this. 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.200 Like the Russian inference, interference in the elections. 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:52.640 Good starting point number two, missing disinformation. 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:54.360 Children. 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.000 But the problem is, I don't understand how that has 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.240 to do with the structure of the Internet versus Yeah. 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.640 So let's maligne actors. Okay, so on the Internet, right, 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:04.159 and in this case, you know, we could talk talk 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:08.000 about maligne actors potentially being foreign governments that want to interfere, 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:12.760 but also companies that want to create engaging content. And 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.159 I use the term engaging meaning anything that gets people 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.120 to click or scroll, which in some cases is bad 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:19.599 for people. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:26.800 Yeah, so let's let's think about it this way. Okay, 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.200 I'm the head of the postal service, and I come 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:33.560 to you and say I have an idea I'm gonna 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:39.760 give you. I'm gonna deliver your mail no stamps for free, 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.120 so no more stamps. So you say, okay, I'm gonna listen. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.719 Maybe I'd be a little bit suspicious, but i'd listen. 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.160 Then I'd say, Okay, here's the deal. I'm gonna put 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.159 cameras in every one of your homes, every one of 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.839 the rooms in your house, in your car, in your workplace, 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:55.240 and so forth, and I'm just going to surveil you 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.239 at twenty four to seven. You kind of be creeped 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.440 out by that, right, and then say well, yeah, but 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.360 it's free. And then it's one more thing. I'm going 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.320 to open your mail. I'm going to read it and 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.679 everything I learn is now mine, Okay, your relationships, your ideas, 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.480 everything else. And then you say, well that's I would 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:14.640 never Why would I do that? 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.120 Okay? And yeah, Then I said, well, but we do it. 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.840 One Well, one other thing. I'm going to read your 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.360 thirteen year old daughter's diary and I'm gonna and I'm 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.920 gonna learn she's a little concerned about her weight. She's thirteen, 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:29.160 she's insecure, a little vulnerable. I've got some stuff I 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.000 want to sell her, and I'm going to profit from 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:33.520 her insecurities. 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:34.239 It's sick. 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:36.840 It's not something we should be putting up with. And 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:42.000 so my point is that we have a decentralized intranet. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.120 Something that Tim tim wrote. Tim Bernersley wrote a letter. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:46.520 He publicly he issued it yesterday. 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.640 He said, I created something that was decentralized, that was 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.120 intended to empower human beings. You know, the proverbial tie 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:57.080 that lifts all boats, and it became something very centralized 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.520 in these big app These big apps are scraping data 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.200 and they're and they're applying algorithms and they're doing things 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:05.800 with it that are not good for society. 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:07.680 No individual, You make a good point. I think about 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:09.400 tim and I have talked about this, Like I've done 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.600 panels with top you know tech execs over the last 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:14.760 decade where they're like, yeah, my kid doesn't like have 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:16.680 a have a phone, doesn't have a lot like you know, 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.200 they limited their use their access because they understood. Having 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:25.400 said that, So, is there too much money though, wrapped 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.000 up in the space right now? People who do make 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.480 the money on the clicks, whether it's good or bad 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.280 information that how do we how do we get away 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.560 from that? How do we change that without that lobbying 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.400 or money behind it to keep it going. Well, so 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:41.360 we have about a minute and then we'll come back 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:41.839 and talk more. 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:42.079 Yeah. 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:44.840 Well, let's first of all, I would hope your listeners 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:46.920 would take a couple of hours of their precious time 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.640 and read the book or go to you know, our 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.400 Biggest fight dot com and learn about how they can 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:54.680 get involved and learn in a little bit more detail 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.880 how this works, but I'm happy to get into more 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:58.000 detail after the break. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.960 But I'm saying, but, like, is there too much money 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.679 behind it? The existing structure these tech companies that are 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.240 so dominant in our world, and definitely, you know, have 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.320 the ear of policy. 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.280 Maybe we definitely need to create an ecosystem, a commercial 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.760 ecosystem that will be bigger and better than. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:17.080 What we have. 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.200 We know that data is valuable, right, these the biggest 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.960 five of these companies are worth eleven trillion dollars, So 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.080 nobody can say that data isn't valuable anymore. So now 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.000 let's rethink what that economy looks like going forward, and 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.880 let's unlock the innovation and ingenuity of Americans, right and 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:35.160 actually build something that's healthy. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.160 Now, we've talked about these digital doh CAAs that are 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.239 being built on all of us, and it is incredibly 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.680 value and then so what's our that's our data? Do 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.000 we get some piece of that or some control over that? 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.160 Good idea right in the future. Absolutely, like sign me up. 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:52.320 We're not gonna let them go anywhere. We're gonna come 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.600 back with Frank Mcourt, Junior chairman of M Court Global, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:56.920 Founder and executive chairman of Project liberty, and we want 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.040 to get to some points for those who are listening 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.800 about what they can do maybe change this if they 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.480 are interested. And his new Biggest or his new book, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.000 Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity and Dignity in the 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.040 Digital a. We're going to get back to that conversation 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:10.680 in just a moment. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.880 We're still here with Frank McCourt, junior chairman of McCourt Global. 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.920 He's also the executive chairman and founder of Project Liberty 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.400 new book Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity and Dignity 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.960 in the Digital Age. Frank, you're obviously so passionate about this, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.360 and I've got to ask do you have any sort 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:30.400 of dog in the fight here? 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:30.880 Like there? 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.599 Do you have any sort of financial interest in creating 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:34.680 a more open Internet. 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.880 I hope that our tech people will eventually build things 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.760 in this new world with millions of other people. But 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.880 our focus right now has been to put forward a 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:51.719 piece of infrastructure, public digital infrastructure at we'll call it 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:56.960 a protocol level piece called DSNP, which we've gifted to 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.800 the world. It's basically like Tim Bernersley gifted HGT. No 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.959 one should own the Internet or own our relationships. That's 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:05.880 the point we're trying to make here, and then we 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.520 can all build on it. I would also add that 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.360 we need to be creating a commercial ecosystem here that 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:13.120 people will. 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:13.719 Build on or all. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.240 This just is a nice idea that will never happen 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.400 because these are huge, huge platforms. So I think, you know, 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.720 we're sitting back and I'm seeing and feeling the same 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.640 things that you all are about. Something's wrong. We're seeing 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.960 the harms to kids. We're seeing our information ecosystem is 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:37.199 completely contaminated. We're seeing democracy struggle. So we need to 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.160 fix this. And so normally you go to these big 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.120 tech CEOs and say, the problems are obvious, we've had 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.880 hearings after hearing fix it. They haven't and they're not 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.920 incentivized to fix it in the pre digital world. Then 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:52.599 you go to your elected officials, you know, you go 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:54.640 to Congress and say, look at the harms. You need 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.920 to regulate this or have some new policies. We've seen 0:11:57.960 --> 0:11:59.559 now for several years it's theater. 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:00.000 Right. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.760 People show up, there's these big hearings, and Zuckerberg and 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.040 the rest show up, and then nothing happens. Why our 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.000 politics is impacted by this very same technology that just 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.079 polarizes everybody and causes that paralysis. 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:14.640 Well, that's it feels like that. I mean, it feels 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.280 like every opportunity for a lawmaker to do something outrageous 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.200 is an opportunity of them to create a click and 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:19.760 raise money. 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:21.839 Well, the whole thing that's going on with TikTok. I 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.160 keep asking the question is it politics or policy that 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.200 people are concerned about, And it just feels like people 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.600 aren't concerned about politically what they can say and how 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.920 it looks. TikTok ban. Should we ban it? 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.920 Well, TikTok for sure is a problem for two reasons. 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.320 One is again this surveillance aspect of it, where it's 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:46.760 collecting all of our information and in TikTok's case, exporting it. Right, 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.800 this is now the Chinese Communist Party has all this 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.920 information on all these all of US American citizens. Of 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.120 course that shouldn't happen. But the other point I want 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:03.000 to make is the model of this extractive, exploitive, predatory 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:08.120 technology where we're being essentially surveiled and our information is 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:13.080 being scraped, is the same model that American apps are using, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.959 such as such as Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.720 Google and Amazon and so forth. It's all about our 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:26.400 social graph, which is essentially all of our personal data. 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.079 And that doesn't it doesn't just mean where we shop 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.000 or buy shoes. It's everything. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.720 Mark Zuckerberg has talked about this for years. He's used 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.360 that term publicly, the social graph. I mean, he tried 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:38.000 to get it sort of an iteration of it to 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.360 take off in the Facebook news feed gosh back in 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:41.120 like twenty twelve. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:42.679 But how do you get away from it even in 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.040 the platform that you are offering up, Because in a 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.439 digital world, doesn't something live somewhere always? 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.400 So yeah, that's a great, a great question. First of all, 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.800 I'm not offering up a platform. I'm offering up a roadmap. 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:55.520 Okay. 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.080 And the title of the book is not my biggest fight, 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.840 it's our biggest fight. This is not going to happen 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.760 unless we bring really millions of people into this conversation. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.679 And so what we're suggesting is we have a problem 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.320 with the infrastrucure. Look, I'm a fifth generation builder. We 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.760 build infrastructure. We have an infrastructure or engineering problem that 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.320 we can fix and then build great stuff on it. 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.880 But if we don't fix the tech we're going to 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.280 continually be spending all of our time and precious you know, 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.680 precious time, precious, precious tax money and resources and so 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.000 forth on putting out. 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.840 These fires and mitigating damage. 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.560 Why not just fix the problem and then go start 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:42.600 solving the other problems that the Americans want to see solved. 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.240 So we need now not just to have a tech project, 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.280 and Project Liberty is also a project that brings in 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.960 civil society and brings in social scientists so that the 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.880 next generation of the Internet is not just designed by technologists. 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.680 Do you think this problem can be solved with the 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.080 free market alone or the government needs to get involved? 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.760 Another great question. I think we can definitely solve the 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:09.120 tech problem with the free market alone, and we can 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:13.040 build out the new and improved Internet, let's call it 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:13.840 the improved Internet. 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:15.760 And that's a David and Goliath story, because you're talking 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.880 about a startup essentially going against the biggest companies in 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:19.280 the world. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.920 Like, I like our chances if it's millions of people 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.680 getting involved here. I don't like our chances if it's 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.560 a little I like if it's an a David against 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.080 the Goliath story, I don't like our chances if it's 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.880 a million Davids against the glias, we will change this, 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.880 and so I think this all can be changed eventually. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.840 We will want some that once people see that there's 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.680 an alternative to this, it doesn't have to be this way. 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.640 Then I think the government will step in because they'll 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.120 have to to make sure they facilitate that. 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.000 Frank do you feel like the Europeans are leading kind 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.640 of already on this way? Like I do feel like 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.760 when it comes to social media, even AI, there were 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.000 some stuff that came out, I mean, the kind of 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.000 going in the right direction or not necessarily. 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.920 I think that they're they're they're they're leading from the 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.560 vantage point of being able to take public policy objectives 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.880 and reduce them to law or regulation. So they have 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.360 they have passed regulations like GDPR, d m A, d 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:24.800 s A, and they just passed the law about artificial intelligence. However, 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:29.840 those regulations and laws are not really changing much because 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.000 they're dependent on these platforms that we're referring to, mostly 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:38.040 American existing platforms, so they're kind of stuck. That we 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.560 need rather than try to have policies that impact the tech, 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.120 we need to have the tech designed to actually optimize 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.800 for what we want the society to optimize for. Shouldn't 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.560 we be optimizing for strong democracy. Shouldn't we be optimizing 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.040 for protecting young kids? Why would we have crazy, you know, 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.520 technology that's running rampant over these things and then have 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:00.560 to go I'm going to go. 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.880 Off on a crazy thing, and then we'll come back 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.399 and talk some more. But I think about we live 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.960 in a country where we talk about gun legislation and 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.440 we have shooting after shooting after shooting, and we say 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.480 every time, Okay, this is going to change something, and 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:15.480 it doesn't. So it makes me a little concerned whether 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.680 or not we can get that public momentum. 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.720 I would just say quickly, we have technology that's designed 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.280 so that we don't solve those problems. Well, we won't 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.679 solve climate change, we won't solve the immigration issue, we 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.600 won't solve the gun violence issue, because the technology is 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.359 designed to keep us in a constant state of fifty 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:33.200 to fifty four and. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.239 Against Yeah, and in a vacuum where we just kind 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.760 of continue to hear. We've only got about two minutes. 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.439 Tell us what you would like to leave our audience with. 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:44.879 First of all, I'd like them too as I said earlier, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.720 take a couple hours read the book Our Biggest Fight, 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:54.000 and I've tried to write it in accessible language, and 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:55.880 it's not a long book. I actually used Thomas pain 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.080 as my inspiration, the guy that wrote Common Sense in 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.920 seventeen seventy five, right, and he said, you. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:01.680 Have a choice. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.920 You can either be a subject or a citizen. Well, 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:05.919 we have that choice again. We can need to be 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.919 subjects to these big platforms, or we can actually be 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.760 digital citizens where we own and control our data, which 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.639 means we own and control ourselves in the digital world. 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:20.080 There's no biological us and digital us. We're one and 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.000 the same. So that's so please read the book, Please 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.680 go to Our Biggest Fight dot com and learn more, 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:27.720 and so forth. But if there's one thing I could 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.920 ask people to do right now, it would be other 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.639 than that. It would be socialize this issue. Talk about 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.480 this issue. I know there are millions of people out 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.439 there seeing and feeling the same thing I am and 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.679 you are. And so let's get it to the kitchen table. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.440 Let's get it to the sideline of the soccer game, 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.200 the kids soccer game. Let's get it to the into 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.000 your school, into the school board, into the the parents 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.800 in schools. Let's get it to talk about it after church. 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.679 Let's let's socialize this issue, because I think we're going 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.800 to find that millions and millions of people once they 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.199 realize how their data is being used and how it's 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.840 being turned to hurt them and harm them and harm 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.280 their kids, they're going to be outraged and they're going 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:11.400 to demand change if we. 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.200 Don't do this. Thirty seconds left, what happens. 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.960 Well, we're seeing what's happening right with artificial with generative AI. 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.040 This is the same technology which is taking our data, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:27.679 these machines ingesting it right and applying quote artificial intelligence 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.560 algorithms to it to go ahead and create all this stuff. 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.600 And we see some of the stuff coming out as wacky, 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:37.679 right because garbage in, garbage out. I say, let's let's 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.840 not have the machines drag us into a future we 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:45.920 don't want. Let's get the tech right, put individuals back 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.520 in charge, and then build great tech that will be 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.040 better for the next generation than generations. 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:52.440 After open door come back anytime. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:53.800 I would love to thanks for your time. 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.720 Frank McCourt, Junior chairman and McCort Global founder and executive 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.600 chair of Project Liberty are his new book, Our Biggest 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:01.080 Fight is out now. 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.480