WEBVTT - Ken Kragen 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.160 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.520 My guest today is long time and the manager of 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:20.000 Kenny Rogers, Ken Craigan, here to tell some Kenny Rogers tales. 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.920 Jan How you do it? Just great, terrific sadly losing 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:29.520 Kenny March. Since that time, there's been so much outpouring 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:33.040 of love all of the world for him, it's quite heartening. Okay, 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:35.400 So how did you meet Kenny? You know, I first 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.320 met Kenny way way way back in the early sixties 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.360 when I was managing I think probably the Smothers Brothers 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:47.000 in those days, and I went to Houston and DJ 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.280 there and his wife took me to a little jazz 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.960 club and he was playing bass with a Bobby Doyle trio, 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.080 and Uh, I was introduced to him. I didn't think 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.200 anything of it at the time. Number of years went by. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.120 He joined the Christie Minstrels, the New Christie Minstrels, and 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.480 I went on and was producing the Smothers Brothers comedy 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.280 show and a lawyer kept calling me, called me six 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.640 straight weeks and pushed me to go see a group 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:18.440 at a club called Ledbetters in Westwood here and uh, finally, 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:20.960 I was very busy with the show, and but I 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.080 finally went down there and I just flipped for him. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:26.240 In fact, I brought Tommy Smothers the next night and 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.959 within a week they were appearing on the Smothers Brothers 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.080 Comedy Hour. Just because I'm interested in club history, tell 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.440 me about Ledbetters. Where was it in Westwood? Lad Petters 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.440 was on Westwood Boulevard And it was owned by the 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.600 guy who was the head of the New Christie Minstrels. 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.280 Oh gosh, I'm blanking on the name now, he's very 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:49.760 well known U but but he had he owned that 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.760 club and the first edition we're just playing there, and 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.080 they were playing there for a couple of weeks, and 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.480 I went in there almost every night for a while. 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:04.040 They were runned by a gorgeous, gorgeous uh lady, young 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.880 woman by the name of Thelma Camacho, and then other 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.280 people in it. Kenny was playing stand up bass. He 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:13.640 was quite a bit older than the other members. They 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.680 had all left the New Christie Minstrels because Mike Settle, 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.640 who was a writer, he couldn't get the Christie Minstrels 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.360 to do any of his songs, so he formed this 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.760 group from the Christie Minstrels, and they started singing songs 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.320 that Mike had written. So you go to see them, 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.520 and he get Tommy to come. How long after that 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.919 till they get on the telecast probably a week We 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.240 well we were a live show on you know, on 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.560 Sunday nights. I mean well, when I say live, we taped. 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.440 We taped and then went out. But uh, but it 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.000 was kind of amazing. I mean literally a week later 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.280 they were on the show. Everybody fell for them, and 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.560 uh and more than one of us, uh fell for Thelma. 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.680 In fact, I think she started dating Mason Williams, who 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.640 was the writer on the show at the time. Of 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.840 course we had classical gas later, right, Yeah, it was 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.560 quite quite an era. Did they already have just dropped in? 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.320 You know? I don't know. I think that came along later. 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.400 They didn't. Mike didn't write it. Mike was with the 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.080 group for the first year and a half or two, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.120 and then he left because his wife gave him an ultimatum. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:26.760 She said, either you know, you stay at home and 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.320 we have a relationship here you're always on the road, 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.079 or we don't have a marriage and I'm leaving. So 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.480 I ran into him about a year or two later 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.200 on in l A. And I said, Mike, so, how 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.200 did it work out? I know, you know, he said, well, 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.720 my wife and I we went for therapy, went for 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.520 couples therapy. He said. I said, well, so did that work? 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:47.640 He said, no, no, it didn't work. But boy did 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.640 I get great ideas for songs, but he was left 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.960 out of the first editions. Out of the first edition 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.320 by that point, and the song how did you become 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.680 the manager? You know? I started managing virtually right away. 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:04.040 I had other clients. I had other clients at the time, 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:08.440 although the Smothers were certainly the major one, and and 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.440 I took them on, and they didn't have any real 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.280 hits at that point. Their first album out wasn't out yet. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:18.120 They had they have a previous manager that you uh not, 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.520 that took over phone because they had just come it 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.520 hadn't been that long since they came out of the 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:26.799 Christie Minstrels, and and so I I got to manage 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.039 them right from the beginning. I remember one of the 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.520 first things I booked for them was a little club 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.960 in Boston and we went there and we would have 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.760 like six or eight people was in a basement in 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.640 Boston and we would have maybe six to eight people 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.480 in the audience at night. And one of those nights 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.360 that one of the smother shows that they taped was on. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:51.839 So I brought a TV set and put it on 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.880 a stool on stage and the group came down into 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.480 the audience, which doubled the audience by the way, and 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.919 we all watched the show on the stage. It was 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.960 very funny. But uh, but they you know, they didn't 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.520 they started having a few hits. Throw a little bit 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.480 slower than that. Okay, you have the act, you signed them, 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.880 you put them on the Smothers Brothers show in that 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.760 era of the sixties mid sixties. Did that immediately mean 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:25.320 they had traction or did you were starting at the Actually, uh, 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:30.680 it was you know, remember there were three networks we had. 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.280 Um you know, Bonanza had been the number one show 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.200 in America and we've been they've been shows have been 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.760 for eight years. Trying to knock it off. CBS had 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:45.560 tried everything and nothing worked, Absolutely nothing worked. So they 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.240 threw our show on, figuring nothing was going to happen 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:52.400 with it, and we exploded. And you know it was 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.640 Vietnam and it was protesting, and it was young people, 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.480 and we were all young and you know, I mean 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:00.880 I was wearing beads and piece meals and long hair 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:06.200 in those days, and and we related to that young 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.160 audience out there. And all of a sudden the show 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.680 became a big hit, and we literally knocked Bonanza out 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:13.760 of number one and went to the number one show 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.880 in the country every week and uh, and we had 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.200 just great pieces on that show. I we were talking 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:24.320 any other night about UH. We had a bit called 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.719 have a Little Tea with Goldie and Um. She would 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.680 come on each night and go and it was all 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.279 drug references. But the network, despite the fact they censored 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.480 the show highly, they never got the drug references. She 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:43.680 opened her bit, uh with UM. She'd say, I want 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:47.239 to agreet all you women the way I always do high, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.279 you know, and oh, I appreciate all of you sending 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.520 me her old roaches that you've gathered around the house. 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.040 Stuff like that. They would we get away with murder 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.800 on it. We even put on the Smother show, which 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.040 was getting from about the first end of the first 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.120 couple of months, it started getting censored, or at least 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:14.239 but a censored. The CBS guys would take the script 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.000 and look at it and say, you can't say you 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.800 can't say this. We would put four letter words in 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.880 the script that we knew they were going to immediately 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.880 knock out. And then they missed the next joke which 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.440 which was a double, which had a double and dundre 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.520 to it, and was kind of was what we really 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.160 wanted to get across. It was like a fun game 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.679 all the time up until the end. So you have this, uh, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.200 the Kenny Rogers and the first additional that was just 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.000 called the first edition on the Smothers Brothers. Do they 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.360 have a record deal at that point? Yes, they did 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.440 at Warner Brothers. Uh. Terry Williams, one of the member's 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:51.160 mother was working at Warner Brothers and and they got 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.920 a deal at Warner Brothers. A producer and later went 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.360 on to be very successful and they Mike Post came 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:01.800 in produced some terrific songs for them, and songs started 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.440 happening when they had that deal. That was before you 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.600 got involved. Uh, yes, they had some kind of deal. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.560 I didn't make the deal at Warner Brothers. I remember 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.840 we got the first album and they weren't happy with 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:14.600 the cover and a lot of other stuff. It was 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.960 almost you know, like the movie Spinal Tap, uh, you 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.320 know when the group gets the album and hates it. Um. 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.280 But you know that just dropped in certainly was the 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.680 biggest break we got in those days, just just to 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.120 go back. So Mike Post, who ultimately this is the 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:33.240 same guy, became famous for writing all the TV themes. Yeah, yeah, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.160 all the themes for television shows, and it's what degree 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.440 was an integral part of the success of I think 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.839 he was a major success in those early days with 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.360 the hits you know, Ruby, Don't Take Your Left to 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:50.040 Town and and all of the various hits that came 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.320 out of the first edition. Uh, in that early early 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:58.960 period where Mike Post and and I do think it's 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.840 funny you mentioned just dropped in. I think just dropped 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.480 in to see what condition my condition is in is 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:10.040 a perfect song for today. I love that record. First 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.760 was aware of Kenny Rogers, but of course everybody then 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.400 thought they were some kind of you know, super hip group, 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.480 and they were as straight as an arrow, you know, 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.080 in those days, they didn't touch anything, and that was 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.000 a big hit on the on the East Coast. How 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.920 did you make it a hit. You know, it's a 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.000 good question. I think that record really made the group 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.440 a hit more than we made that record hit. And 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:40.120 many times over the years, I've worked radio very very hard. Um, 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.240 I think the only thing we did basically to try 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.520 and support records was travel and and and do shows 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.000 all over the country and visit radio stations, and do 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.920 you know, it was all radio at that point, UM 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.840 and UM and I had there's a kind of a 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:58.760 wild part of the story that you get a kick 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.320 out of. When I first came out of Harvard Business 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:06.520 School in the in nineteen sixty uh, I was managing 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.320 a group called the Lime Lighters, and I took their 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.720 record into a radio station, w b Z in Boston 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.000 and the music director and the sort of librarian music 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:21.320 director was Joe Smith. So by the time we got 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.240 to the Warner Brothers deal, he you know, he and 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.600 Mo Austin were the gold Dust Twins or the co 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.679 the co heads of Warner Brothers Records. So I had 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.320 a relationship there which was great. In fact, at one 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.640 point I had five acts on their label that We're his. 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.760 So uh just dropped in becomes a success and what's 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:44.720 the next move? Well, the group starts playing concerts everywhere 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.800 and doing very well for a few years, and one 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.160 song after another, Ruben James I mentioned Ruby Don't Take 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:57.120 Your Love to Town. The big change came about almost 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.160 two years into it, or a year into the group 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:03.200 um when Uh we had one record out that was 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.560 doing okay on the charts and they wanted to put 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.920 out it might have been Ruby, Uh and Kenny was 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.640 lead lead vocalist. I don't remember the exact record, and 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:16.800 I had a meeting at Warner Brothers with Moe and 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:21.080 Joe and everybody there and decided that the best way 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.319 to put the second record out was called Kenny Rodgers 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.800 in the first edition for the second record, and that 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.400 stuck because of that record went on to be a 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.720 huge hit. So it was either Ruby or just dropped in. 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.080 It was one of those, and the rest of the group, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.760 you know, they accepted it, although it wasn't. I mean, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.200 they didn't fight among each other ever really, but but 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.640 I'm sure that Terry Williams and some of the others 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.360 in the group felt a little bad at first that 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.600 suddenly Kenny was the front guy, because you know, he 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.760 was kind of he was the bass player and an 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.880 older guy in the group, the oldest by by a 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.680 long shot, trying by the way to look hip. He 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.880 was in dark glasses and letting his hair grow and 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.160 doing everything he could to look as him as possible. 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.720 So how long did it run with the first edition? 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:13.080 It runs to about nineteen seventy five, And I'll never forget. 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:19.200 The last engagement was at Magic Mountain, very depressing for 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.959 a group that had been drawing big audiences all over 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:26.320 the world. Actually this is an amusement park in southern California. Yeah, yeah, 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.760 and uh, and that was they broke up right after that. 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.600 H Kenny was at that point sixty five million dollars 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:38.120 in debt, had gotten a divorce, was or at least 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.000 it was in the process of it, and it was 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:46.080 pretty downcast. However, he uh, you know, he had met 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:51.560 Mary Ann, who was who became his wife. Ultimately he 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.960 met her in Nashville doing he aw and he spent 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.800 a lot of time in Nashville, and a manager from there, 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:04.360 sort of a manager guy offered him, uh, what he 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.720 offered him was seven fifty thousand dollars to come down 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.680 there and let him manage it. H Kenny never saw 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:12.880 but a fraction of that money, a very tiny bit 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.199 of it, and it didn't That didn't work out, So 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.640 he'd ultimately moved on from you. At the end of 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.800 the first edition. Yeah, he left. I was kind of broke, 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:27.280 and I went and joined Jerry Weintrop's office, and Kenny, 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.760 in the meantime went to Nashville. So did the band 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.920 blame You've, because usually the manager gets blamed when the 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.280 band is not doing that well. I've I've rarely had that. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.360 I hate this, I mean not hate to say it. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.760 You lose artists because one of two reasons. You lose 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.800 them because you didn't do a very good job and 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.200 they're disgruntled and unhappy, or you lose him because you 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.240 did a very good job and they think I don't 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.360 need to be paying him all that money. I lost 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:59.040 TRICI yearwo over that, over over how much I was making. 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.600 She was making several times maybe ten times what I was, 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.880 but she was I was making a commission of maybe 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.240 fifty thousand at that point, almost a million. And you 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.400 take a look at that. She was now with Garth, 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:18.120 who felt he could pretty much advisor and and she 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.040 just came to me one day and said, you're making 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.480 almost as much money as I am, but she was 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.800 looking at her net versus my gross and uh. And 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.480 we parted over that, and I had done I think 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:33.840 a pretty spectacular job for I've rarely lost anybody. I mean, 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.720 Kenny I managed for thirty three years. Well, staying with Kenny, 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.120 he goes to Nashville, it doesn't work out. How do 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.160 the two of you look back up? I signed it 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:47.000 with Jerry Windrab. I'm being handling Gosh the carpenters and 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:51.520 Harry Chapin and and doing some work for John Denver, 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:56.560 all Jerry's clients at a phenomenal company. And I get 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.320 a call from Kenny from Nashville and he's left this 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:05.400 guy and he suddenly wants my management back. I'm at Jerry's. 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.720 I go to Jerry and Jerry says, forget it, he's 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:09.640 washed up, he's nothing that's going to happen with him. 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.040 Don't sign him. But I signed him over Jerry's objection, 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.680 which lady really backfires on Jerry because Kenny, who never 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.800 forgets that Jerry didn't want him. Uh, And I don't 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.120 quite I doubt if I told him that, but somehow 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.600 he found that out. Anyway, I signed him and I 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.840 put him out on the road with the carpet with 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.600 the captain and to Nil and it's really interesting what 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.040 happens because they give him ten fifteen feet in front 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.040 of the curtain to perform. Now, remember he's been part 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.400 of a group that's been very big at one point, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.800 and he calls me and he says, I'm so discouraged. 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.800 You know, I go out there. They really want the 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.600 headliner that you know, I'm stout there as a solo artist. 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.080 I just think I'm gonna quit this. I think I'm 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.440 gonna stop. And I spend you know, I don't know 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.560 how much time him an hour or something, really pumping 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.680 him up and talking to him and keeping him going. 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.240 And he stays in it. And one of the things 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.720 it does is tremendously influenced him later on when he 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.960 takes artists such as Garth Brooks on the road, and 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.680 Garth actually talked about this recently on a tribute to Kenny. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.640 When Kenny takes artists on the road, he gives him 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.080 the full stage, everything I want to work with, all 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.480 the lighting, everything. He does everything he can to make 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.480 them feel as much at home at as much a 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.000 star as he possibly can. And I think it came 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.800 from the way he felt with Captain and Taniel. I 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.400 don't think that Captain Teneo really ever thought anything about it. 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.400 They probably didn't realize how it affected him, but it 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.800 but hey, then you know, he runs into Larry Butler 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:57.680 in Nashville in the pancake pantry and they he goes 0:16:57.760 --> 0:16:59.800 to his office later and they make a deal for 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.240 a record. Okay, tell us to Larry. Tell us about 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.439 Larry Butler. Larry Butler is a producer who did Johnny Cash, 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.800 a whole slew of top artists, um uh, and he 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:15.639 was a very very prolific producer. And they record sixteen 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.880 songs together and they send them to me. I'm now 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.480 working at Jerry wide Drops office, and he has a 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.080 whole promotion department of his own music guys that go 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.440 out and promote the records with radio. And we all 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.119 sit in the conference room, on the floor of the 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.920 conference room listening to these sixteen songs, and we get 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:38.160 to one called Lucille, and we really crack up. We're 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.720 literally rolling around the floor going this is crazy, this 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.639 is and I said, this is either you know, a 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.199 dud as a novelty song or it's the biggest hit 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.760 he could have, and sure enough it turns out and 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:53.320 by the way, it was the name of his mother 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.080 when it's and what he didn't write it, and his 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.480 mother got upset because you know, it's uh, it's about 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.280 leaving her husband and and the crop and the with 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.760 the four kids and the crop in the field, you know, 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.040 and stuff. And he says, why did you do that 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.720 about me? This isn't my life. I never did that. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.159 She had eight kids. But anyway, it goes on to 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.159 be a number one record, he wins, he wins the 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.120 song of the Year on the c m A Awards. 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.120 Um it becomes the real song that kicked him off. However, 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.639 I will say I tried to get the record company 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.000 to release it first off of those sixteen songs he'd recorded, 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.840 and they didn't. They released one or two others before 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.640 they went to Lucille. They all just felt that Lucille 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.119 was was, you know, not going to make it, that 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.680 it was too unusual and different a song. But boy, 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.840 it resonated and it it kicked the career into high gear. 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.600 It was you know, Gambler coming along later kicked it higher. 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.640 But and a lot of other things we did, which 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:59.159 we can talk about. But but Lucille, Okay, so Lucille, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.800 now what record label is this? This becomes Liberty. I 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.600 believe we're on at that point part of the E 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.720 M I M. Yeah, part of E M I. Because 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.440 then Jim Maza came in and headed Capital, which owned 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.439 E M I, or at bought M E E M 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:20.560 I and so it um. But we start having hits 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:25.359 then and and one after the other. But the big 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.960 big moment for Kenny really was that Larry Butler had 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.720 recorded The Gambler, a John Schlitz song. Don was in 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.800 twenty three years old and had written a bunch of 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.119 songs that didn't go anywhere, and one of his friends 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.399 told him, Gee, you really should develop that one about 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:45.439 the Gambler, and he did, and Cash recorded it but 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.160 didn't like it that well, and so Larry, feeling Cash 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.280 wasn't going to put it out, recorded it with Kenny. 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.000 After Kenny made it an enormous hit, it was Catch 0:19:55.200 --> 0:20:00.240 wasn't very happy that it hadn't come out. But although 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.320 Johnny Cash was a great guy to him, well, uh, 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:08.840 but you know, the Gambler really established Kenny and and 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.639 it did it for a bunch of reasons. One, he 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.080 looked the part. He fitted it. It felt, you know, 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.560 he felt like he was singing about himself almost and 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.680 h and we got an album covered done by a 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:27.800 fabulous photographer named Reed Miles, who h was sort of 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.520 the Norman Rockwell of the photo photographers. He would bring 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.359 in actors and put them around on artist and he 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.879 brought it. You know, The Gambler was based like in 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:39.280 the eight hundreds of the way Reid saw it, and 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:41.560 he put it Kenny as the dealer in the midst 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.399 of this cast of characters. And that album cover was 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.679 just sensationally good. And the song, of course, I mean, 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:51.000 you've got to know when to hold him. You've got 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:52.680 to know when to fold him. You gotta know when 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.720 to walk away, you gotta know when to run resonated 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:57.920 even to this day, people use it all the time, 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.199 even to this day. Uh and uh. And then of 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:10.520 course we went on to make these huge movies. So 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.399 tell us how the movies came about. Well, that's a 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.119 fun story. Kenny had gotten pretty big with all the 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.280 other stuff, including The Gambler, and he was now hosting 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:24.359 the Country Music Awards, the CMA Awards, from Nashville and 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.639 at rehearsal the day before the awards, two of the 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.280 top guys from CBS who happened to buy movies of 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:35.440 the week for the network, one being Fred Rappaport blanked 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:37.440 on the name of the other guy. They were sitting 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.000 in the green room with me while Kenny was out rehearsing, 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:43.879 and I had a poster of the cover of The Gambler. 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.040 Now you have to understand, I've never made a movie before. 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:51.200 Kenny had acted in one in some small part. Uh, 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:55.000 we had no experience, really, And I am really rolled 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.240 this poster, this big, huge poster like a movie poster, 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.600 and said we want to make this as a movie. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.119 And the two guys sitting on the couch looked at 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:08.960 me and went sold, wouldn't you love to be able 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.560 to do that today? I've got We've got I've got 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:14.879 two projects out right now, and you have to go 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:18.520 through all kinds of hoops to get them made. But 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.879 but that it did take six months more to negotiate 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:26.080 a deal. But by that fall we were we were 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.280 out there making that movie in October and it went 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:34.000 on in November literally and uh went through the roof. 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:39.320 It became the highest rated movie in history on television, 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.320 highest rated movie four television Movie of the Week was 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.440 a two hour version. But as a result of that, 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.640 as a result of that one success where we got 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.639 like a fifty two share in a thirty five rating, 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.439