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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Just a note that we discuss sexual and

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Speaker 1: domestic violence in this episode. In nineteen eighty eight, Robin Givens,

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Speaker 1: a well known actress, and her husband Mike Tyson, the

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Speaker 1: heavyweight champion of the world, gave an extraordinary television interview

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Speaker 1: to Barbara Walters of ABC News. As Mike sacked quietly,

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Speaker 1: his arm draped around Robin, she addressed persistent tabloid rumors

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Speaker 1: that he was violent and abusive.

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Speaker 2: Does he get you? He shakes, he pushes, he swings.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I think he's trying to scare me.

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Speaker 3: There are times that had happened when I fought, at

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Speaker 3: least I could handle it, you know, And just recently

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Speaker 3: i'd become afraid.

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Speaker 2: I mean very very much afraid.

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Speaker 1: It's a stunning interview, not just because of its honesty,

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Speaker 1: but also because of what you suspect. She's still holding back,

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Speaker 1: but far from eliciting sympathy for Robin, which is what

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Speaker 1: you'd expect, or drawing condemnation of her husband, the interview

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Speaker 1: would lead to a nasty backlash against Robin Gibbons. One

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Speaker 1: month later, she would file for divorce, and soon thereafter

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Speaker 1: she would become commonly referred to in the press as

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Speaker 1: the most hated woman in America. I'm Susie Vanacarum.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Jessica Bennett.

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Speaker 1: And this is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit

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Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped.

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Speaker 4: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about the vilification of Robin Gibbons, a

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Speaker 1: talented actress who in the nineteen eighties became known for

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Speaker 1: her violent marriage to Mike Tyson. But we're also talking

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Speaker 1: about the way she was treated by the press, what

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Speaker 1: it teaches us about domestic violence, and the role race

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Speaker 1: played in all of it. This is part.

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Speaker 4: One, So Susie, for our listeners, I just want to

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Speaker 4: reset the scene here a little bit. What we've just

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Speaker 4: heard is an interview that Robin Gibbons and Mike Tyson

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Speaker 4: have given to Barbara Walters. It's nineteen eighty eight, and

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Speaker 4: Robin has described the abuse she's been suffering at the

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Speaker 4: hands of her husband. He happens to be the heavyweight

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Speaker 4: champion of the world at this time. And first off,

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Speaker 4: this clip is pretty stunning to hear, but it's even

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Speaker 4: more stunning to watch.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's actually riveting. Television you know, for

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Speaker 1: better or for worse, it really you just really see

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Speaker 1: how honest this moment is. Like, I think we're just

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Speaker 1: not used to seeing celebrities in this unguarded way. Even

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Speaker 1: now in the age of social media. They sort of

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Speaker 1: pretend they're sharing their real lives with you, but it's

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Speaker 1: all very managed, and this feels like just a very

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Speaker 1: honest confession at a time when that was truly very unusual. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, But before we get into all of it, what

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Speaker 4: led Mike Tyson and Robin Gibbons to be seated together

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Speaker 4: side by side on that couch for this national television interview.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the primary reason they do it is

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Speaker 1: because they're doing damage control. There's constant rumors about the

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Speaker 1: violent nature of their relationship. The tabloids are hounding them.

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Speaker 1: They've only been married eight months at this point, and

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Speaker 1: you know, his people really want to rehabilitate his image.

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Speaker 1: They hope that he's going to do more TV and films,

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Speaker 1: so they need things to quiet down a bit in

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Speaker 1: terms of the public perception of their marriage. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, they agree to do this interview partially also

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Speaker 1: because Mike really wants to show off his new opulent

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Speaker 1: mansion to Barbara Walters, and they're hoping, Yeah, it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting detail, right, and they're hoping that it will, you know,

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Speaker 1: make Mike seem like a sweet family man, and to

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Speaker 1: some extent also it'll rehabilitate Robin, who's being very negatively

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Speaker 1: portrayed at this time.

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Speaker 4: Ah, that's so interesting because it basically just all backfires

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Speaker 4: in that regard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think looking back, it's very clear that the

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Speaker 1: interview does not go as planned. I mean, Robin seems

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Speaker 1: to reveal much more more than she was prepared to reveal.

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Speaker 1: She almost seems once she reveals it to immediately kind

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Speaker 1: of seem a little off that she's done it, Like

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Speaker 1: you can sort of see her looking into the distance,

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Speaker 1: like she seems to almost immediately regret it. But I

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Speaker 1: think what it really shows you is what a gifted

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Speaker 1: interviewer Barbara Walters was.

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Speaker 4: That's so interesting because what happens is that instead of

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Speaker 4: people having sympathy for her, they actually turn on her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Robin gets branded a gold digger, a liar.

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Speaker 1: The coverage is just so much worse than anything you'd expect,

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Speaker 1: and the rabbit attention to their relationship really only increases

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Speaker 1: as a result of this.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I can absolutely see why you wanted to

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Speaker 4: unravel this. There's so much unpack here.

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Speaker 1: They were also really young. I think that's one thing

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Speaker 1: people don't realize. Like they were twenty one and twenty

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Speaker 1: three at the time of this interview.

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Speaker 5: They were babies.

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Speaker 1: Oh but I think because they're both so larger than life,

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Speaker 1: in a way, they read as a little bit older,

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Speaker 1: like even when you're watching it. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you had that reaction, but I kept having to sort

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Speaker 1: of remind myself how.

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Speaker 5: Young they were.

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Speaker 1: And I've always kind of wondered about Robin Gibbons because

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Speaker 1: at a time, you know that you and I've talked

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Speaker 1: about where there's all this sort of revisiting of women

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Speaker 1: and women.

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Speaker 4: Characters in a post me to world or what right.

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Speaker 1: I don't think she's ever really been given the chance

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Speaker 1: to have her story revisited in a way that feels

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Speaker 1: like true to what really happened to her. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, But can we backtrack for a second, maybe walk

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Speaker 4: us through what they were like back in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 4: because these were two twenty somethings.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think it's really important to understand

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Speaker 1: that Mike Tyson was literally one of the most famous

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Speaker 1: people in the world when this interview aired. Boxing now

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Speaker 1: just doesn't have the same kind of appeal it once did.

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Speaker 1: But at one point, boxing was more popular than football

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Speaker 1: in this country, and she was famous too in her

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Speaker 1: own right, but she wasn't anywhere near his level of fame.

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Speaker 1: So I think their relationship from the moment it began

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Speaker 1: not long before this interview. To be honest, they hadn't

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Speaker 1: been together so long. There was a lot of scrutiny

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Speaker 1: to it. She was sort of this impossibly glamorous I mean,

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Speaker 1: Robin Gibvens, she's so it's so beautiful. There's something really

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Speaker 1: regal about her, and I think there was an automatic

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Speaker 1: assumption that she was this icy bitch for you know,

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Speaker 1: lack of a normal way to put it, because I

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Speaker 1: don't think she is those things, but her appearance automatically

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Speaker 1: lent to this real contrast between Mike Tyson, who's kind

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Speaker 1: of this big bear of a man who grew up

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Speaker 1: in the streets of Brooklyn. So I think that in

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Speaker 1: and of itself drew a lot of attention to them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes sense, but we Robin was already acting

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Speaker 4: by this time, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so she was starring in Head of the Class,

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Speaker 1: which started in nineteen eighty six, which was a very

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Speaker 1: popular sitcom about a bunch of kids in a gifted

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Speaker 1: program in New York City high school. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I grew up watching that show and I loved Robin Gibbons.

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Speaker 1: You know, her character was a bit of a spoiled

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Speaker 1: rich girl, but she was smart and funny, and she

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Speaker 1: was ambitious, and she was a black student in a

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Speaker 1: mostly white honors class. And I related to that, right,

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Speaker 1: like I was.

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Speaker 4: Also in real life or in the show, in the show,

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Speaker 4: in the show, sorry, in the show.

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Speaker 1: Okay, she was also very smart and clever and ambitious

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Speaker 1: in real life. But the character she played, Darlene, was

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Speaker 1: sort of an extension of her in some ways, right.

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Speaker 1: I think she became conflated with that character. So that's

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Speaker 1: also why people sort of assumed she was this spoiled

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Speaker 1: rich girl, which she wasn't, you know, by any Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Can you tell us a little bit about who she

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Speaker 4: was prior to this in her real life?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So Robin is really interesting, and her background becomes

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Speaker 1: kind of weaponized against her. She was born in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty four, and she's raised by this single mom, Ruth Roper,

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Speaker 1: who ends up being a really significant part of the

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Speaker 1: coverage of Robin and Mike's marriage, sort of Chris Jenner's

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Speaker 1: like momager before. That's a thing that she very much

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Speaker 1: poured a lot of her energy into her daughters. Robin

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Speaker 1: had a sister named Stephanie, and she raised them. Oh,

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Speaker 1: they grew up in New York and Ruth and Robin's

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Speaker 1: father divorced when Robin was two years old, and she

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Speaker 1: really raised them to be goal oriented and hardworking and ambitious,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in fairness to Ruth, she was all

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Speaker 1: of those things. She never went to college. But by

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Speaker 1: the time Robin is acting, she has built a two

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Speaker 1: million dollars a year consulting business. The designs like computer

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Speaker 1: systems for banks and brokerage firms. I mean, that's not

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Speaker 1: like an easy business to break into while you're raising

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Speaker 1: two kids. So she is really doing everything she can

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Speaker 1: for her daughters. And Robin does start working a bit

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Speaker 1: as a kid. She occasionally modeled. She was like in

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Speaker 1: seventeen magazine, and she does a little bit of acting.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that gets a lot of attention in

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Speaker 1: pieces about her at the time is that she's incredibly smart.

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Speaker 1: She went to private school. There's like a People magazine

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Speaker 1: article in eighty seven that mentioned she had a three

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Speaker 1: point grade point average, and she finishes high school at

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Speaker 1: fifteen and enrolls at Sarah Lawrence College. So she is

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Speaker 1: legitimately like a I think, a genius maybe. And she's

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Speaker 1: one of the youngest people ever to enroll at Sarah

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Speaker 1: Lawrence and she graduates in nineteen eighty four at nineteen,

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Speaker 1: when a lot of people are just getting to college.

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Speaker 1: So that is like a big part of how people

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Speaker 1: think about her in relation to Mike Tyson, because there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of assumptions made about his intelligence. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: graduate from high school, so that's something that gets talked

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Speaker 1: about a lot. When she graduates from college, her mom

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Speaker 1: really wanted her to become like a professional. Her mom

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Speaker 1: didn't really see acting as a real job, which I

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Speaker 1: mean I can relate to that. My mom wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: seen that as a real job. And she enrolls in

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Speaker 1: classes at Harvard. It's unclear if she's like taking some

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Speaker 1: pre med classes to eventually go to medical school, but

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Speaker 1: in her book and she says she never applied to

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Speaker 1: medical school, but she was taking some classes to eventually

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 4: Okay, how does a person who's graduated from Sarah Lawrence

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Speaker 4: at nineteen is like maybe enrolling in medical school go

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Speaker 4: on to be with Mike Tyson.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a long journey to get there. So while

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Speaker 1: she was in college in nineteen eighty four, she books

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Speaker 1: a guest role on The Cosby Show. Okay, and Bill Cosby,

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Speaker 1: who at that time was also one of the most

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Speaker 1: famous men in America, becomes her mentor. Oh wow, Bill

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Speaker 1: Cosby just pops up into the story, and the reporting

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Speaker 1: at the time is that he convinces her mom to

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Speaker 1: let her drop out of Harvard, and he says to

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Speaker 1: her mom, if she doesn't get a job in six months,

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Speaker 1: then I'll pay for her to go back later. Like,

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Speaker 1: he takes a real interest in her and convinces her

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Speaker 1: mom that acting is a real option for her, and

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Speaker 1: Ruth agrees and they move across the country to La

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Speaker 1: and move into Bill Cosby's home, which I have a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions.

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Speaker 4: About his real life home, not the Cosby How No.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean there was no yeah, it was like

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Speaker 1: a set.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, they moved into his real life home. WHOA Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I've questions that that, knowing

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Speaker 1: what we know now about Bill Cosby, but I don't

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Speaker 1: have any answers for you on that front. And he

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Speaker 1: helps her get an agent and acting does work out.

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Speaker 1: A couple years later, in eighty six, she is cast

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Speaker 1: in this sitcom Head of the Class that I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and she stays for the full five year run and

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Speaker 1: it's a successful show.

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Speaker 4: And I seem to remember that it wasn't just Mike

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Speaker 4: Tyson she dated. She had dated a lot of famous men,

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Speaker 4: and that sort of gets used against her, I think,

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Speaker 4: but who was that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, later on, when there's like all this sort of

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Speaker 1: coverage of her as this like conniving gold digger or whatever,

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Speaker 1: it gets mentioned a lot that she dated Eddie Murphy

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Speaker 1: when she was in college. She met him at a

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Speaker 1: comedy club. She was sixteen, and he was just starting

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Speaker 1: out in Saturday Night Live, so I think he was

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Speaker 1: nineteen or twenty at the time, so not that much

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Speaker 1: older than her. Although sixteen is pretty young to be

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Speaker 1: dating a guy who's like a full time cast member

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Speaker 1: on Saturday Night Live, you have to imagine that that

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Speaker 1: was a bit wild. She calls him her first boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: so that was a real relationship and they continue to

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Speaker 1: be friends to this day, I think. But she also

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Speaker 1: briefly dates Michael Jordan, who was not nearly as famous

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Speaker 1: as he would become in the nineties, but another sort

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Speaker 1: of like very famous black man.

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Speaker 4: This is then you use.

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Speaker 1: But also the sense that she's like targeting these like

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Speaker 1: successful black men, which I don't know, is that targeting

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Speaker 1: I want to date really successful cool people too, Like

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Speaker 1: isn't that just what everybody wants? Like is that like

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Speaker 1: some sort of scheme? I don't know. But and then

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Speaker 1: she meets Mike Tyson and that becomes kind of the

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Speaker 1: defining relationship unfortunately, I think from her perspective of her life,

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Speaker 1: although she will, luckily for her go on to much

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Speaker 1: healthier relationships later on.

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Speaker 4: Okay, Mike Tyson, I mean he was huge in this era.

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Speaker 4: I feel like the thing that I remember most is

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Speaker 4: him biting that guy's.

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Speaker 1: Year off, Yes, Evander Holyfield.

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Speaker 4: Which maybe happen in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it happened much later, much later than Okay.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So who is Mike Tyson at this point?

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Speaker 1: So he is twenty years old when they meet. He

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Speaker 1: has become the youngest heavyweight champion of the world, which

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Speaker 1: means I had to look it up because I didn't

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Speaker 1: know exactly what that meant. That he's the boxer who

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Speaker 1: holds world titles from all of the major sanctioning organizations simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: So he's like won a lot of fights, I guess,

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Speaker 1: is what it means. He's a multimillionaire. He's reportedly worth

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Speaker 1: fifty million dollars when they meet some from his fights,

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of that money actually is prizes from

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Speaker 1: the fights. But also he has a Pepsi deal, and

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Speaker 1: he has this really popular Nintendo game called Mike Tyson's

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Speaker 1: punch Out.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, okay, I remember, yes, yeah, that game was

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Speaker 4: very popular. Okay.

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Speaker 1: And to give you an idea of just like how

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Speaker 1: quickly he's risen to this fame and fortune.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because he didn't come from money.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, he did not come for money at all.

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Speaker 1: But he literally went from making five hundred dollars for

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Speaker 1: his first professional fight when he was seventeen to just

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Speaker 1: three and a half years later making twenty million dollars

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Speaker 1: for a fight. So you just sense that it's just

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Speaker 1: been this really fast paced success. So he is incredibly

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Speaker 1: successful and famous, but he hasn't really adjusted to that yet, right,

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Speaker 1: He doesn't have this machinery that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who have that kind of wealth have around them. It's

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Speaker 1: all still kind.

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Speaker 4: Of right the agents.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all just like really hectic, and there's all

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Speaker 1: these people sort of coming in and out of his life.

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Speaker 1: He's still trying to kind of adjust to this new life.

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Speaker 4: And he, if I remember correctly, had a pretty traumatic

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Speaker 4: child yes.

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Speaker 1: Like a very traumatic childhood. So he was born and

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Speaker 1: raised in Brooklyn, mostly in this neighborhood, Brownsville, which is

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Speaker 1: pretty rough and tumble, and it was the center of

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Speaker 1: race riots and police violence. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: poverty in the sixties and seventies there. His mom was

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Speaker 1: an alcoholic who died when he was sixteen. He didn't

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Speaker 1: know who his father was. There's a man who was

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Speaker 1: on his birth certificate, but a different man is the

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Speaker 1: man he refers to as his father. And what he

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Speaker 1: says about that man is that he was essentially like

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Speaker 1: a neighborhood pimp, and that's sort of who he knew

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Speaker 1: to be his father figure at that time. He essentially

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Speaker 1: kind of grows up in the streets. He's like a pickpocket.

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Speaker 1: He's involved a lot of petty crimes. He's a street fighter.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you heard Mike's voice, so Tyson's voice

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Speaker 1: is he has this little speech impediment that he still has.

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Speaker 1: It's like a lisp that gives him almost like.

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Speaker 4: A yeah he does. He has it's like a soft

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Speaker 4: spoken quality to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a childlike quality. And he's often teased

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Speaker 1: for that. And he wears glasses, so he says he

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Speaker 1: started to fight to defend himself because he would get teased. Also,

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Speaker 1: a thing about Mike that's often discussed is that he

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Speaker 1: raised pigeons from a very young age. He's like really

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Speaker 1: obsessed with pigeons in particular, but birds in general, and

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Speaker 1: it's used in profiles to depict him as this kind

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Speaker 1: of gentle giant, right, And he has said that the

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Speaker 1: first fight that he was in was because an older

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Speaker 1: boy killed one of his birds, and he like avenged

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Speaker 1: the bird and it felt so good to like beat

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Speaker 1: the shit out of this bigger kid. And that's when

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Speaker 1: he realized that, you know, he could fight, like really fight.

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Speaker 1: And by the time he's twelve, he's been arrested thirty

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Speaker 1: eight times. So it's yeah. I mean, really he really

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Speaker 1: leans into the fighting. Another thing that he's just recently

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Speaker 1: talked about publicly is that also during this period, he

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Speaker 1: experiences a sexual assault, and we don't know a lot

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Speaker 1: about that. He doesn't, you know, really want to share

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Speaker 1: a lot of details about it, for understandable reasons. But

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Speaker 1: he's only really talked about that since he's turned fifty,

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Speaker 1: So it's a fairly recent thing that he's admitted. But

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Speaker 1: I think his childhood was rough every.

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Speaker 4: Measure, okay, And so how does Mike go from being

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Speaker 4: like a street fighter to boxing professionally.

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Speaker 1: So when he's fourteen, he gets sent to a juvenile

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Speaker 1: detention center because he has stabbed someone. So at the

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Speaker 1: juvenile detention center, he meets a trainer who teaches him

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Speaker 1: to box and then eventually introduces him to this pretty

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Speaker 1: well known boxing coach named Cus Tomato, who really takes

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Speaker 1: him in. He becomes his mentor, he becomes his father figure.

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Speaker 1: He moves in with Custom Otto and his family.

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Speaker 4: Cus teaches him to read and write, and then he

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Speaker 4: he didn't know to read and write.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know how to read and write at that time,

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Speaker 1: not really, And he sends him to school. He does

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Speaker 1: eventually drop out of high school his junior year, but

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Speaker 1: for a couple of years he goes to school because

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Speaker 1: Cus and his wife really taken interest in him, and

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Speaker 1: that is what fundamentally transforms his life.

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Speaker 4: You can see they couldn't come from more different backgrounds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they grow up in such different ways. Right.

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Speaker 1: She is definitely sheltered, right, she is like protected. Her

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Speaker 1: mother is very careful what Robin and her sister Stephanie

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Speaker 1: are exposed to.

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Speaker 5: Mike is the opposite.

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Speaker 4: So Robin Gibbons and Mike Tyson are living these really

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Speaker 4: different lives. How do they actually meet?

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Speaker 1: So they meet in nineteen eighty seven, and at that time,

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Speaker 1: Mike is a little bit on his own custom otto.

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Speaker 1: Who is this man who is essentially his father at

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Speaker 1: this point?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like father, manager, coach.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically has died in nineteen eighty five, a couple

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Speaker 1: of years before Mike became the heavyweight champion of the world,

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Speaker 1: which I think is something you know that it is

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Speaker 1: hard for him and he's sort of surrounded by a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who are making their living off of him,

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Speaker 1: managers and trainers. So that's kind of where he is

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Speaker 1: when they meet. He sees her on television, he sees

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Speaker 1: her on head of the class, and he asks to

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Speaker 1: meet her, and I guess someone gives him her mother's

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Speaker 1: contact information, and so he repeatedly leaves messages with her mother,

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Speaker 1: Ruth's assistant. Interesting, and Ruth ignores it initially, you know,

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Speaker 1: for all these sort of rumors afterwards that Ruth is

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Speaker 1: like targeted Mike Tyson and is trying to Like she

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00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,400
Speaker 1: initially does not see Mike Tyson as a serious prospect

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Speaker 1: for her daughter, Like she wants her daughter to marry

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Speaker 1: like a doctor or a lawyer. You know, She's not

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Speaker 1: looking for some street fighter, whether or not he's the

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Speaker 1: most famous man in the world. So she ignores the

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Speaker 1: calls for months, and then finally I guess she decides

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Speaker 1: to just mention it to Robin.

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Speaker 4: Oh, she hasn't even told Robin at this point.

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Speaker 1: No, she doesn't even tell Robin initially that these calls

389
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Speaker 1: are coming in. But it's so persistent and goes on

390
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,159
Speaker 1: for so long time. She's just like, I guess I

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00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 1: should just mention this, And Robin defies her and is like, no,

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Speaker 1: I want to meet him. I want to go on

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Speaker 1: a date with him. And Ruth doesn't love that, but

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Speaker 1: she agrees to set it up. And then when they

395
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Speaker 1: go on their first date, I just think this is

396
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Speaker 1: the funniest detail. She brings her mom and her sister

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Speaker 1: and like her agent and publicist with her. That's like

398
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Speaker 1: this sort of like summit meeting or something.

399
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Speaker 5: Right.

400
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 1: Then when they finally meet, it's kind of this sort

401
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Speaker 1: of wild coming together.

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Speaker 4: So I assume that dinner goes well.

403
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of interesting because I read Robin's book.

404
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 1: She wrote a book in two thousand and seven, long

405
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Speaker 1: after this called Grace Will Lead Me Home, And at

406
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Speaker 1: times it's quite harrowing, but this section she describes it

407
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Speaker 1: as this whirlwind and magical romance. You have to remember

408
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Speaker 1: she's like a twenty two year old girl, right, and

409
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 1: Mike sweeps her off her feet. She loves how much

410
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Speaker 1: it feels like a fairy tale. She describes it as

411
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Speaker 1: so exciting. She tells a story about how one night

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Speaker 1: they go out for dinner and Sylvester Stallone walks into

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Speaker 1: the restaurant, who's just like this huge star, and he

414
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 1: comes over to say hi to them, and Mike says

415
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Speaker 1: to her, like, see, I'm a star to the stars,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you can see how that would be

417
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Speaker 1: so exciting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so you can see the appeal someone whose life

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Speaker 4: has been very controlled. This is very enticing.

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Speaker 1: And one thing she talks about in the book a

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Speaker 1: lot is that her father abandoned her as a child.

422
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Speaker 1: She didn't really have a relationship with him after the divorce,

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Speaker 1: and that feeling of being rejected leaves her craving this

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00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: kind of attention that Mike is giving her, and this

425
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: sense that he's strong so he can protect her and

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Speaker 1: care for her. There's something in that that feeds something

427
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Speaker 1: in her that she feels she's been missing. And he's

428
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 1: a little dangerous right when you're twenty two, that can

429
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Speaker 1: seem run and exciting as opposed to, you know, vaguely terrifying.

430
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Speaker 1: So that's kind of where they are when they meet.

431
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Speaker 4: So at what point does the relationship get serious.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it gets serious pretty much right away.

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Speaker 1: The way she describes it, he is just a full

434
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Speaker 1: court press from that point forward. He's calling her, he

435
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: wants to see her all the time. There's just this

436
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: kind of like what we would now describe as love bombing,

437
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: I guess, but that's what happens and at the same time,

438
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 1: what she will reveal in the book a bunch later

439
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,239
Speaker 1: is that in these first few months, it's also the

440
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: first time he hits her. They have this fight she

441
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: describes in detail. He's not listening to her, she's trying

442
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: to leave his apartment, and he hits her, and she

443
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 1: is stunned by it, and she immediately runs to a

444
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: friend's house, but can't bring herself to tell the friend

445
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: what's happened. And she describes a set of emotions that

446
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: now we've come to expect from someone who's suffering from

447
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: domestic violence, this shame and also this belief that she

448
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: must have done something to deserve it. And she also

449
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: has this naive, twenty two year old belief that she

450
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: can somehow heal him right, like she can somehow fix

451
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: him of him right, because he is very vulnerable with her.

452
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: He tells her what a messed up childhood he has,

453
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: and he actually, very explicitly, at different times early on

454
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 1: in their relationship, asks her to take care of him

455
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 1: or to promise she'll never leave him. So she doesn't,

456
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: and they're married ten months later. So in February of

457
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, and a lot will eventually be made

458
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 1: of the fact that there is no pre nup and

459
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: he is twenty one and she is twenty three at.

460
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 4: That point, Oh, he's younger than he.

461
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: Yes, he's a couple years younger than her, which also

462
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: is often pointed out as if twenty three and twenty

463
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: one are like thirty and twenty one. You know what

464
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: I mean, She's not like some sophisticated woman of the world,

465
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: but she presents a real sophistication. I think there's something

466
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: naturally really sophisticated about her, and so I think that's

467
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: also really drawn as a contrast between them.

468
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 4: And so the marriage, as I understand it, is really

469
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 4: tumultuous from the start.

470
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it only lasts eight months. You know. This relationship

471
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: that will go on to kind of bef for both

472
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: of them for the rest of their lives is over

473
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: in less than a year, and these allegations that he's

474
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: abusive and cheating on her start to trickle out in

475
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: the press. I mean, he's not doing a lot to

476
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: cover up his activities and.

477
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 4: Meaning he's hitting her in public.

478
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: There are incidents where he does hit her in public.

479
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: There's a particularly famous incident that I'll explain in more

480
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: detail later where he chases her and her mom around

481
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: a hotel lobby. Okay, but I think just in general,

482
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of scrutiny on them and there's

483
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: all this tumult around them, and that it's hard for

484
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 1: them to keep that out of the press. And she

485
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: confirms in the memoir also that he is cheating on

486
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: her even in these early stages of their marriage, and

487
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: that he doesn't even try to hide it from her.

488
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: He's not really trying to hide it from the press either.

489
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: He flat out tells her about it and taunts her

490
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: about it.

491
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 4: Oh wow.

492
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, he does not come off like a good man,

493
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: and he is also prone to jealous rages. So while

494
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: he's like cheating on her pretty openly, he's resemful of

495
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 1: her career. He wants her to quit acting. He's pushing

496
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: her to have kids right away. And there's this other

497
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: piece that I think plays a really fundamental part and

498
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: why there is so much being leaked to the press. So,

499
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: as I've said, Cus Tomato, who is his original coach

500
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: and trainer, has died already. He has another manager who

501
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: he's pretty close to, who dies right around this same time.

502
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: And so those two deaths combined leave him really vulnerable

503
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: to this whole host of pretty terrible men who are

504
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: trying to figure out a way to make money off

505
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: of him, including people you've heard of like Don King

506
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump. A whole host of bad men appure

507
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: in this episode. Like we've already had Bill Cosby, now

508
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: we have Donald Trump.

509
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is so interesting.

510
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Trump Entice it have been friends since

511
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: late eighties. Around this time, Trump is trying to get

512
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: him to have his fights at his casinos, trying to

513
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: sort of become one of his promoters. And there's a

514
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: particular manager, Bill Cayton, who really resents Robbin's influence right

515
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: and her mother who comes with her. They are bringing

516
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: more scrutiny to the kind of deals he has when

517
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: they meet this guy Bill Kitten is taking a third

518
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: of all his earnings and they renegotiate that down to

519
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: a quarter, which is significant. I mean, he really doesn't

520
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: have anyone looking out for his interests. Now there is

521
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: this woman who is smart and her mother who is shrewd,

522
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: and they are just asking what seemed to me like

523
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: very reasonable questions. But all these people around him who

524
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: really would rather operate in the dark hate it, and

525
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: a lot of the leaks in the press are coming

526
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: from them, and she's kind of being depicted in the

527
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: media as the Yoko No of boxing.

528
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 4: Which is like, oh wow, that's an actual.

529
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an actual quote. And you know, obviously Yoko

530
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: Ona could be her own episode. Right. The way she's

531
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: sort of depicted as the reason the Beatles breakup is ridiculous.

532
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 4: So okay, I see. So this is sort of where

533
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 4: the like gold digger in it for the money, never

534
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 4: signed a prenup influencing him narrative about Robin begins to

535
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 4: take shape.

536
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: Hold yes, and you know, we're talking about a lot

537
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: of money, right, Like, these guys have a lot of

538
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: money in Steake. He's making twenty million dollars a fight,

539
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: So if you're taking a third of that versus twenty percent,

540
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: that's a huge amount of money.

541
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: What else at this point is the press saying about her.

542
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: The coverage of her in general is just scathing. She's

543
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: portrayed as ambitious and greedy and also just daring to

544
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: meddle in men's business. You know, the sports writers really

545
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: come after her right away, and it's hard not to

546
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: see kind of a racist undertone to it. It kind

547
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,479
Speaker 1: of feels like they're just one step away from calling

548
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: her uppity, Like it's just like, how dare she think

549
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: that she deserves to speak in this space or have

550
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: an opinion about her husband's business?

551
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 4: Like, Right, it's so interesting too, because it's like, if

552
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 4: she's uppity, he is kind of like this savage brute

553
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 4: who people didn't expect more from in a way.

554
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: There's definitely racism in the way he's treated as well, Right,

555
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: I think it's just this idea that like, what did

556
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: she expect? Didn't she think he was going to be

557
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: a thug? Like he's this kid Brooklyn. There is just

558
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: racism weaved into a lot of the way they're both

559
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: talked about at this time, and even in the way

560
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: that her mother has talked about, right, because she's also

561
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: described as really ambitious, and that is also made to

562
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: seem like something disgusting. And I think in general, this

563
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: is kind of, you know, a thing we all experience

564
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: as women. I remember once a mentor said to me,

565
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: as he was trying to convince me not to take

566
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: another job, that I was too ambitious. And I've never

567
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: really understood that criticism of women. I feel like we

568
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: just celebrate ambition in men, and yet somehow women are

569
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: supposed to like sit quietly and temper Wait, I don't know,

570
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: it's very weird.

571
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 4: Well, that's the whole Cheryl Sandberg thing, right, however you

572
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 4: feel about Cheryl Sandberg. Yeah, she made the point, which

573
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 4: was correct, that we rarely common too ambitious because ambition

574
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 4: men is the default. But in the eighties we certainly

575
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 4: didn't have that context, right.

576
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: And also, I think the coverage really focuses on her

577
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: mom's ambition. That's also kind of playing into this stereotype

578
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: about her because her mom is young and attractive, and

579
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: that makes people really suspicious of her.

580
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 4: Oh so the mom actually gets kind of dragged into

581
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: the negative press coverage, Yes, very much. Okay, so this

582
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 4: is all happening super fast, and they haven't even done

583
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 4: the interview yet, right.

584
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, This sort of all happens in rapid succession. So

585
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: they get married in February, and a couple months later,

586
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: in April, Givens becomes pregnant and that is made public.

587
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 5: In May.

588
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: A lot is made of the fact that they purchased

589
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: this fancy country estate in New Jersey for more than

590
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: four million dollars and that Mike has asked Ruth to

591
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: pick it out, like in a lot of ways, that

592
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: uses evidence that Ruth is like manipulating him when he's

593
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: just asked her to do this because he has something

594
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: he needs to be in I think Japan for and

595
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: he's always fantasized about living in these big English manners

596
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: that he saw as a child. So that is the

597
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: first time that Ruth becomes involved in his finances, as

598
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: does Robin, and it's when they begin to realize what

599
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: all the sort of financial arrangements are with his managers.

600
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: So that is like a first moment of real tension

601
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: around that. And then in June, Tyson has this huge

602
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: fight with Michael Spinks in Atlantic City that gets a

603
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: lot of coverage. It's a twenty one million dollar fight.

604
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: And to give you an idea of how much Robin

605
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: is disliked going into this fight, there are a number

606
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: of articles about their relationship and how it might have

607
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: destroyed him and whether or not she's ruined his ability

608
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: to fight, whether just her sheer presence in his life

609
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: has sapped him of his like mojo or something like that.

610
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: It's so insane and yeah, like she's this Jezebel who's

611
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: like stolen his skills. I don't know. It's the craziest thing, right,

612
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: And then when she's introduced at the fight, the crowd

613
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 1: boos her. Wow, she just like must have been awful

614
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,239
Speaker 1: for her. And just FYI, he knocked out Spinks in

615
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: ninety one seconds. It was around so like she has

616
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: not destroyed him in any way, shape or form. If anything,

617
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: he's working on destroying her. Right later that month, she miscarries.

618
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 4: And okay, so they don't have so they don't have

619
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 4: any children, and is Zap reported then in the press. Ye,

620
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 4: like all of this is public, that she's pregnant, that

621
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 4: she miscarries.

622
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: It feels like everything that's going on in their life

623
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: is public in ways that don't seem to be in

624
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: their control. Just like there is no way for them

625
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: to operate without this enormous spotlight on them. And we

626
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: say this a lot on this show. It's like reality TV.

627
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: Before reality TV, I think, before we had this kind

628
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: of access into people's lives, there were certain figures that

629
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: became stories that got followed as if their lives were fictional.

630
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: Every little movie.

631
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, where like their humanity almost gets lost, and they

632
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: just become like a fun narrative to follow, like no

633
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: one's really paying attention that this is like a real

634
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: thing that's happening between two people.

635
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 4: And so is the abuse consistent throughout this time?

636
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: It seems pretty consistent. I mean, another thing she talks

637
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: about in her book is that after this big fight,

638
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: they throw a big party in New Jersey at their mansion,

639
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: and to give you an idea of just how famous

640
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: they are, the first guest to ribe or Oprah and

641
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: her longtime partner Steadman, and they're there for a parade

642
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: the town has arranged in his honor, and Mike doesn't

643
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: show up to the parade, and so Robin and Oprah

644
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: go to lead the parade, and then he finally shows

645
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: up and they go back to the house and with

646
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: all the guests downstairs, Mike just goes upstairs and she

647
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: follows him, and obviously out of sight of all the guests,

648
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: he slaps her and grabs her by the throat. So

649
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: it seems like that's just a consistent thing that's happening

650
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: in the background, and she's just consistently kind of trying

651
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: to pretend like it's not happening, and putting on a

652
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 1: happy face.

653
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 4: And the other thing too, is he struggles with real

654
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 4: mental health issues as well.

655
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 1: Is that right, There is a lot of mental illness,

656
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: but at that point he hasn't faced that yet. They'll

657
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: eventually be a diagnosis and some conversation around that, but

658
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: at this point, this fight takes place in June, and

659
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: she says that by early September, Michael is completely unraveling.

660
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: He's staying up all night, he's depressed, he's manic. He

661
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: threatened suicide because he thinks Givens is ignoring him at times.

662
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: And then there's this huge tabloid incident, which is that

663
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: one day he hits her and she flees to They

664
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: have an apartment in New York. She goes to New

665
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: York and he keeps calling to convince her to come home,

666
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: and when she doesn't come home, he essentially says he's

667
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: going to do something drastic, and he takes her BMW

668
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: and drives it into a tree.

669
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 4: Oh wow, See it's so interesting how I don't remember

670
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 4: so much of this story. So is that a suicide attempt?

671
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems very much like it's a suicide

672
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: attempt by any sort of objective measure of what that is,

673
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: although he does deny that afterwards. It's essentially, I think,

674
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: an abusive cry for attention. Right, He's not getting what

675
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: he wants from her, and he's like, I'm going to

676
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: make you pay. And the way he does it is

677
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: this accident I guess we'll call it. And this gets

678
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: a ton of coverage obviously. I mean, he's one of

679
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: the most famous people in the world. He's gotten into

680
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: this terrible car accident. There's ambulances and police and she

681
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: rushes to be by his side. But even then, the

682
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: way it's portrayed in the press is that he's like

683
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: insecure when it comes to her that somehow she's like

684
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: to blame for him having done this thing. There's like

685
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: a subtle.

686
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 4: And places sick he drove his car into a.

687
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: Trap, right, Like this implicit sort of blame on her,

688
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: Like he's not an adult who's in control of his actions.

689
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: He's just so enamored by her. It's almost like she's

690
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: like a witch who's put a spell on him or something.

691
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: I don't know.

692
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: It's the strangest way to talk about a grown man,

693
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: but that's just part of the racism. That's part of

694
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: this coverage, I think in a way right, and I

695
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: think the way in which he's infantilized is certainly part

696
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: of that, and the way that she's vilified. And we

697
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: will talk about that more with Salami Shatillett, who, as

698
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: you know, is a writer for The Times, and will

699
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: get into some of those details. But here there is

700
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: this kind of sense that he can't be expected to

701
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: be in control of himself.

702
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 4: It's so interesting how the press has really like taken

703
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 4: aside early. But isn't there some trip to Russia that

704
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 4: also occurs?

705
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: Yes, And to get away from all the attention, right,

706
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: all this tabloid attention to his accident, he decides he's

707
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: going to go with Robin to Russia, where she is

708
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: filming a special set of episodes for Head of the Class,

709
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: her sitcom.

710
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 5: And while they are there, they.

711
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: Get into some altercation and he is again violent with her,

712
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: and he ends up chasing her and her mother around

713
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: the hotel lobby in a very public way. And obviously

714
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: there's press there because they're covering his visit to Russia,

715
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: so that gets a lot of attention as well. And

716
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: coming off of that, I think essentially she insists that

717
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: he see a therapist of some kind, and he announces

718
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: publicly that he is suffering from manic depression, which we

719
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: now call bipolar disorder. So he really starts to face

720
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: the fact that he needs a psychiatrist, and he starts

721
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: to take lithium.

722
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 4: Okay, and just to situate us. Basically, it's like all

723
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 4: this stuff is leaking. She gets booed at this fight.

724
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 4: He runs her BMW into a tree in maybe a

725
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 4: suicide attempt. Everyone's like, oh, poor Mike, he can't be

726
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: in control of his actions. This is all in the

727
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 4: months leading up to the Barbara Walters interview. All of

728
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 4: this is happening super quickly, right.

729
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the car accidents at the beginning of September.

730
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: By the end of September, he's publicly announced that he

731
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: is seeing a psychiatrist. So all this drama is eventually

732
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: what leads us to the infamous Barbara Walters interview.

733
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 4: Susie, before you walk us through the actual Barbara Walters interview,

734
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 4: maybe it would help to give listeners just a little

735
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 4: sense of what a big deal Barbara Walters was in

736
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty eight.

737
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was a huge Celebrity's just absolute powerhouse in

738
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: television news. She broke so many barriers for women, and

739
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: her interviews always got a lot of attention. She was

740
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: famous for these really intimate celebrity interviews where she would

741
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: get people to cry. As The New York Times put

742
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: it when she passed last year, at a time when

743
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: politicians tended to be reserved and celebrities elusive, Ms Walters

744
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: coaxed King's presidents and Matinee idols to answer startlingly intimate questions.

745
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: So she was really known forgetting those moments, and this

746
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: interview certainly delivers on that.

747
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 4: So about the interview. It takes place at Robin and

748
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 4: Mike's mansion in New Jersey.

749
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: Walk us through it. What happens the interview itself. This

750
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: sort of infamous Robin and Mike interview is part of

751
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: an hour of television, and it honestly kind of takes

752
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: forever to get there that It starts with an interview

753
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 1: of Mike alone where he denies being violent with his wife.

754
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: Then there's an interview with some random psychiatrist who does

755
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: not factorat Mike Tyson, but who is asked to comment

756
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: on whether or not him taking lithium will make it

757
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: impossible for him to continue to box, which just reveals

758
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: how little mental health was properly understood. Then there's an

759
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: interview with Ruth Robin's mother and Barbara asks her about

760
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: whether or not she's controlling him and his money, and

761
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: she denies it of course, like I don't know what

762
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: the expectation is that she's gonna be like, yes, I'm

763
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: a monster. And then there is also an interview with

764
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: his manager who I mentioned, Bill Cayton, and he essentially

765
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: says he thinks that Mike is not mentally ill, he's

766
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: not violent, and any medication he takes will take the

767
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: spark in quotes, that's what he literally says, the spark

768
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: out of Tyson and will mean that he can never

769
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: box again. Just this idea that they need him to

770
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: be whatever he is because they think any change might

771
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: impact the money they're making off of him. Right, if

772
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: he's mentally ill, they would rather he go untreated, if

773
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: the risk of him getting help is that somehow he

774
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: becomes different in the ring, and so they're all really

775
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: invested in not getting him the help he needs.

776
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 4: Okay, so it's an hour of television focused on Mike.

777
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 4: All these people are interviewed. Then do we finally get

778
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 4: to Robin.

779
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: Yes, we finally get to Robin. She's not interviewed alone.

780
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: She's interviewed with Mike, which I think is an interesting choice.

781
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: He sits beside her the whole time.

782
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can picture them. And so they're side by

783
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 4: side on this kind of floral couch. He's in this

784
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 4: almost cosby like sweater.

785
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: It's very eighties.

786
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 4: She looks stunning and beautiful and poised. She's wearing this

787
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 4: kind of eighties blue shoulder pad shirt. Yeah, and he

788
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 4: is his arm around her. It's around her as they're

789
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 4: talking together, and then it just kind of stays there.

790
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're sitting side by side. And Barbara Walters asks

791
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: her what has this rollercoaster of a relationship been like?

792
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: And Robin responds with the other part of this interview

793
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: that gets played over and over again. She says, it's

794
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: been torture, pure hell, worse than anything I could possibly imagine.

795
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: Every day is a battle, some kind of fight with managers, family,

796
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: trying to hold on to your dignity.

797
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 4: Wow.

798
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: And what's so interesting to me about this is that

799
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: second part. Right, She's making it pretty clear that what

800
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: she's saying is not that the relationship with Mike is

801
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: pure hell, but that every day's a battle with all

802
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: these people around him who are clawing at him. And instead,

803
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: when this interview is replayed over and over again, it's

804
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: just the first part that gets played that she said

805
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: that being with Mike Tyson was torture, pure hell, worse

806
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: than anything I could possibly imagine. And it's one of

807
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: the ways in which she's made to seem like a bitch,

808
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: like how could she sit next to him and say

809
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: that about him? But it's pretty clear she's saying that

810
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: about all the men around him who are trying to

811
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: control him, and that she's mad them, right, I mean

812
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: they're leaking all these nasty stories about her. Of course

813
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: that is hell for her. Yeah, And then what comes

814
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: next is Barbara very flatly asks, he chased you and

815
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: your mom around Russia. He has a volatile temper? Is

816
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: that true? And I'll let you just sort of listen

817
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: to the rest of this.

818
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 3: Extremely volatile temper. I think people see that about every

819
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 3: three months. He's got a side to him that's scary.

820
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 3: Michael is intimidating, to.

821
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: Say the least. I think that there's a time when he.

822
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 3: Cannot control his temper, and that's frightening to me or

823
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 3: to my mother and to anyone around. It's scary what

824
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: happens He gets out of control, throwing, screaming, Does he

825
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: hit you? He shakes, pushes, he he swings. He Sometimes

826
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 3: I think he's trying to scare me. There were times

827
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 3: that had happened when I thought I I could handle it,

828
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: you know, and just recently I've become afraid, I mean

829
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 3: very very much afraid.

830
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: For instance, Russia, I was afraid.

831
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 4: I just want to emphasize that watching this is so surreal,

832
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 4: Like as this is happening, as she's saying this, they're

833
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 4: side by side. His arm is still around her. But

834
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 4: you know, at the start of this interview he has

835
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 4: this sort of like plastic smile. It's like stays there.

836
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 4: And then you watch as he's answering this question, his face,

837
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 4: I don't know, it almost falls or it goes blank,

838
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 4: and suddenly you start to see his chest go up

839
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 4: and down, like his breathing is becoming something.

840
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: But it's very subtle. It's like he's obviously really trying

841
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: to control his reaction, right, and he is disciplined like

842
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 1: that is part of being a good boxer. Right.

843
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 4: It's fascinating television and it makes you wonder, like, from

844
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 4: our perspective, was he prepped before ly? Did he know

845
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 4: this was coming? And I mean my interpretation was that

846
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: he absolutely did not, and that Barbara Walter's part of

847
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 4: what she did so well was she just asked the

848
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 4: question bluntly, like she just said the thing that people

849
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 4: don't say, and that Robin answered truly authentically.

850
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: Yes. I think both of those things are true. I

851
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: think he was definitely prepped. He's very much trying to

852
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: stay in control of the situation. But it is also

853
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 1: pretty clear to me when you watch Robin's face after

854
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters goes back to Tyson and asks him what

855
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: it's like to listen to this interview to a situation

856
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: in which I'm dealing with my illness and like basically

857
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: like this was my wife and we're dealing with it.

858
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: There's this kind of moment on Robin's face where she

859
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: looks kind of in shock, like she can't believe what

860
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: she's admitted. She's not sure if she's gone too far.

861
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: But one thing that's interesting is she did say later

862
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: on they went out and celebrated after this, they thought

863
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: this interview had gone oh well. So it's not entirely

864
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: clear how much they are both processing this thing. In

865
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: the moment. I think it's just kind of happening and

866
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: they're trying to make sense of it. It's pretty difficult

867
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: when you're in those interviews, right when someone's got all

868
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 1: these cameras in your face, you almost black out a little.

869
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: I'm not sure they realized how far they'd gone until

870
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: there was a public reaction to it later on.

871
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 4: And of course you never remember the soundbites that are

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Speaker 4: going to be taken and replaced right.

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Speaker 1: Interestingly, now, when celebrities do these interviews, their publicists record

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Speaker 1: them like they record them on their phones so that

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Speaker 1: they know what happened, because it is very hard when

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Speaker 1: you're in the heat of the moment to keep track.

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Speaker 4: That's such an interesting point because hearing these clips, you

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Speaker 4: think it's so damning, but the fact that they went

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Speaker 4: out and celebrated, and then later on in an interview,

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Speaker 4: Barbara Walters asks again why she's doing the interview, and

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Speaker 4: she basically is defending it, like she's explaining, and she

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Speaker 4: doesn't want him to seem like a bad guy. And

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Speaker 4: so maybe this is helpful context and understanding where they're

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Speaker 4: both coming from and his untreated mental illness. I mean,

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Speaker 4: in some ways they are really breaking ground by talking

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Speaker 4: openly about his illness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's saying very authentically it seems like he's

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Speaker 1: been untreated. It got worse, you know, because it gets

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Speaker 1: worse in your twenties. That's just how this particular disease works.

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Speaker 1: And we're fixing it. And I think she really believes

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Speaker 1: that right by all accounts and her own telling in

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00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: her memoir, she's kind of naive about what's going on

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Speaker 1: around them. And then the interview airs.

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Speaker 4: That actually feels like a really good place to leave

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Speaker 4: it for today. So if you want to hear what

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00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 4: happens after the interview airs, check out part two.

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Speaker 1: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a

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Speaker 1: cultural moment you can't stop the thinking about and want

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00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: us to explore in a future episode. Email us at

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00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: inretropod at gmail dot com, or find us on Instagram

901
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: at in retropod.

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00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 4: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

903
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

904
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 4: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

905
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 4: which we may or may not delete.

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00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

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00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books

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00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen.

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00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 4: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.

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Speaker 4: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

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00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 4: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and

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Speaker 4: associate producer.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

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Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stamp and Katrina Norbel.

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00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Additional editing help from Mary

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00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: Doo and Mike Coscarelli. Sound correction and mastering by Amanda

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Speaker 1: Rose Smith. We are your hosts Susie Bannacarum.

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Speaker 4: And Essica Bennett. We're also executive producers. For even more,

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Speaker 4: check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.