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Speaker 1: A. Kelly. Do you guys have solar panels out on

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Speaker 1: the science farm yet? Yes, we do, but they don't

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Speaker 1: always help when you need them the most. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean what happened? Well, there was that snowstorm that

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Speaker 1: slammed the East Coast a few weeks back, and that

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Speaker 1: knocked out the whole electrical grid. It would have been

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Speaker 1: nice to have solar, but solar panels don't work super

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Speaker 1: great when it's snowing, and I guess they also don't

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Speaker 1: work that well when they're covered in snow. Right. I

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Speaker 1: never thought about that. Do people who live in snowy

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Speaker 1: places need to get like solar panel wipers like windshield

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Speaker 1: wipers for your car? Not quite? Uh? And ours are

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Speaker 1: up on a roof, so we can't just sort of, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, wipe it off with our hands or something.

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Speaker 1: And I think most people just wait for the snow

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Speaker 1: to milk. I don't know. Didn't you create like some

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Speaker 1: mini humans out there you could send up on your

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Speaker 1: roof to wipe them off? I assume you're talking about

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Speaker 1: my children were not so desperate for power that we're

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Speaker 1: willing to risk their lives for it. I don't know

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Speaker 1: when my kids iPads run out of charge. I am

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Speaker 1: very desperate for power. I can't parent without them anymore,

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Speaker 1: so I might even climb up there myself. I see

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Speaker 1: where you're coming from. We were. Fortunately we're able to

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Speaker 1: charge our iPads in the car, so we were okay. Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at

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Speaker 1: U C Irvine, and I find myself needing more and

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Speaker 1: more energy every day. And I'm Kelly waen Or Smith.

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Speaker 1: I'm a parasitologist who's adjunct with Rice University, And I

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Speaker 1: also like power. Do you ever wish that you could

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Speaker 1: just plug yourself into solar power? Like? Why do we

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Speaker 1: still need to sleep? Why can't we just recharge the

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Speaker 1: way all of our devices do. Yeah? Right, that would

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Speaker 1: be like an upgrade of coffee. I like it electrified

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Speaker 1: coffee exactly. It just seems so much more reliable, you know,

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Speaker 1: those days you have, like insomnia or whatever you like.

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Speaker 1: I wish I could just plug in and charge up.

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Speaker 1: Today we did the coffee, and I'm feeling kind of jittery.

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Speaker 1: So if I could just plug into a solar panel

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Speaker 1: and get nice, steady power without overdoing it, that would

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Speaker 1: be pretty solid. Well maybe someday in the future. Well,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe,

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Speaker 1: in which we try to plug your brain into all

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Speaker 1: the crazy ideas of the universe. We like to explore

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Speaker 1: the deepest, darkest questions about black holes, the biggest, hottest

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Speaker 1: questions about neutron stars and what's going on inside the sun,

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Speaker 1: all the way down to the tiniest little particles that

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Speaker 1: make up me and you and your coffee. We explore

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Speaker 1: all of it. We don't shy away from any of it,

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Speaker 1: and we break it all down for you. My friend

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Speaker 1: and co host Orgy can't be with us today, so

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Speaker 1: we're very happy to be joined by one of our

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Speaker 1: regular co hosts Kelly. Thanks again for joining us today. Hey,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me here. I love being on the

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Speaker 1: show and I am particularly excited about this topic. It's

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Speaker 1: a super fascinating interface between human behavior and technology, which

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Speaker 1: I just love. You wish that humans sometimes were easier

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Speaker 1: to predict and control like technology, Well, yeah, that would

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Speaker 1: be boring, but but but yes, it would be nice.

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Speaker 1: But one thing that we can rely on humans for

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Speaker 1: is that we seem to always need more and more

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Speaker 1: energy our lives. Have more and more devices in them.

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Speaker 1: We rely on expensive devices to do things for us.

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Speaker 1: It seems like the future of our civilization is one

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Speaker 1: that consumes more and more power. Yes, and people in

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Speaker 1: other countries would like to approach Western levels of energy usage,

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Speaker 1: and if that happens, we're going to be in a

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Speaker 1: bit of trouble. We're already in a good bit of trouble.

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Speaker 1: As we look around on this planet, we notice that

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Speaker 1: it can't really sustain our lifestyle at this level for

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Speaker 1: much longer. I was reading the UN Climate Change Report,

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Speaker 1: and it's pretty alarming stuff. That's not light reading. It's

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Speaker 1: not light reading exactly. According to that report, a lot

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Speaker 1: of the changes we've already seen in the climate are

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Speaker 1: unprecedented in the last thousands or a few hundreds of

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Speaker 1: thousands of years. So the Earth is heating up, the

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Speaker 1: sea levels are rising, things are going bonkers. We just

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Speaker 1: can't continue in this direct. Yeah. The more you watch

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Speaker 1: the news or pay attention to the weather channel, the

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Speaker 1: more depressing this stuff gets as time goes on. And

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Speaker 1: if we're going to slow it down, we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to make some pretty big changes to our behavior. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think one goal is to keep the Earth from overheating.

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Speaker 1: You know, as we pump more c O two into

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere, it acts as this global blanket, keeping the

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Speaker 1: Sun's energy inside rather than letting the Earth radiated out

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Speaker 1: into space. So the more CEO two that we pump

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Speaker 1: into our atmosphere, the warmer the Earth gets. It's already

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Speaker 1: risen by almost a degree relative to historical levels as

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Speaker 1: of twenty twelve, and there was this prediction that if

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Speaker 1: we wanted to keep it from rising another degree up

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Speaker 1: to two degrees above typical levels, and there was a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of CEO two that we could afford to

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Speaker 1: pump into the atmosphere. Unfortunately, we've already pumped more than

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Speaker 1: half of that into the atmosphere. So we have this

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Speaker 1: like shrinking window to avoid basically total disaster. And I

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Speaker 1: wonder sometimes if we're going to be able to pull

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Speaker 1: it off, if we sort of as a species, are

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Speaker 1: going to be able to stand together and say like, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's solve this problem. Let's do something about it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna have to do something drastic. And

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Speaker 1: the longer we wait, the more drastic that thing is

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Speaker 1: going to have to be. And so we got to

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Speaker 1: get moving on that. We definitely do have to get

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Speaker 1: moving on that. And of course science and technology seems

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Speaker 1: like an excellent direction, like we're developing new technologies, we're

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Speaker 1: pushing this kind of stuff. It's the kind of thing

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Speaker 1: that humans only seem to respond to when it's like

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Speaker 1: really in crisis. You know, I wish that we could

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Speaker 1: like look at these things further in advance and prioritize

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Speaker 1: these things before we're in crisis mode. But it's sort

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Speaker 1: of like the professor with a thousand things going off

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Speaker 1: at once. We only seem to have the attention span

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Speaker 1: for the most urgent crisis. Foresight seems to be a

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Speaker 1: pretty massive weak point for humanity as a whole, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And one crucial area, of course, is production of that energy.

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Speaker 1: We want to keep consuming this much energy to power

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Speaker 1: our iPads and our phones and to watch our screens,

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Speaker 1: and we need to figure out a way to generate

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Speaker 1: that energy that doesn't further heat up our planet, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't cause like wildfires and see ocean rises and all

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Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. And one of the great things

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Speaker 1: about the you know, possible solutions to this problem is

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Speaker 1: that there's technologies we already have that we could use,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't even necessarily require some like world changing

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Speaker 1: fundamental new technology. We have some of the tools now,

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Speaker 1: we just need to commit to implementing them. Does that

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Speaker 1: make you more optimistic that we're going to solve this problem,

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Speaker 1: like because you can see the solutions ahead of us,

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Speaker 1: or less optimistic because now it's like a political question.

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Speaker 1: It's just a question of whether humans will stand together

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Speaker 1: and do this. I always find it hard to be

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Speaker 1: optimistic in the face of politics, but but I think

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Speaker 1: if you give up hope, then you really don't get anywhere.

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Speaker 1: So yes, I'm optimistic. We need to make better use

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Speaker 1: of these technologies. And a lot of the technologies you're

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Speaker 1: talking about have been ramping up quickly, things like wind

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Speaker 1: and solar, which are clean and renewable and excellent sources

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Speaker 1: of power. But there's another technology which has been around

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Speaker 1: for or decades, which produces reliable electricity and doesn't emit

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Speaker 1: any carbon, and for which there's huge amounts of fuel

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Speaker 1: readily available. But it's not one that people typically think

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Speaker 1: of when they think of like clean energy or green energy.

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Speaker 1: And of course I'm talking about nuclear power. And so

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Speaker 1: today on the podcast, we'll be tackling the question is

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Speaker 1: nuclear power worth the risks? Yeah, and it's a particularly

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Speaker 1: complicated form of energy. There are definitely environmental groups who,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that it produces zero carbon, are still

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Speaker 1: completely against it because of some of the other side

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Speaker 1: effects like what do you do with the waste and

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Speaker 1: how is that going to contaminate the environment. So it's

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Speaker 1: a particularly complicated but promising technology. Yeah. I think it's

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Speaker 1: really fascinating how it's sort of splits the politics, like

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Speaker 1: if you are a pro environment are you against nuclear

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Speaker 1: because of the potential waste and risks or are you

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Speaker 1: pro nuclear because it is zero carbon. It's really fascinatingly

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Speaker 1: skewers all of these questions. And what's interesting is most people,

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Speaker 1: when you ask them, don't sort of kind of feel

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Speaker 1: one way or another. They feel very strongly pro or

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Speaker 1: very strongly against. It's a technology that doesn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in the middle. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: that the general sense out there is that nuclear power

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Speaker 1: is risky, that it's dangerous. People have seen Home or

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Speaker 1: Simpson operating that nuclear power plant on The Simpsons. It

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Speaker 1: seemed blinky the Three Eyed Fish. They just get the

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Speaker 1: sense that nuclear power is like out of our control.

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Speaker 1: It's something maybe humans shouldn't dabble with, and of course

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Speaker 1: it's connected with nuclear weapons, which you know, might end

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Speaker 1: humanity and ruin the planet. So in general, I guess

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Speaker 1: that people are uneasy with the idea of nuclear power.

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Speaker 1: And I've also concluded that The Simpsons are partly to

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Speaker 1: blame for our current climate change issues because so many

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Speaker 1: people are watching it on their screens. Well I did

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid. I guess I haven't recently,

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Speaker 1: But anyway, maybe we should talk to Matt Groening about

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Speaker 1: a PR overhaul, although maybe he's not in charge anymore. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's true that Monty Burns is not the most sympathetic

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Speaker 1: figure when it comes to running a power plant. But

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Speaker 1: I was wondering what our listeners thought about this question

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Speaker 1: about whether nuclear power is an excellent source of fuel

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Speaker 1: for the future because of its zero carbon output, or

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Speaker 1: whether it's something risky and dangerous that humans should shy

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Speaker 1: away from to avoid polluting our planet with radioactive waste

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Speaker 1: that would last for tens of thousands of years. So,

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Speaker 1: as usual, I ask people to volunteer to answer difficult

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Speaker 1: questions without any preparation. So thanks to everybody who volunteered,

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Speaker 1: and if you would like to participate for a future

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Speaker 1: episode of the podcast, please don't be shy. All you

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Speaker 1: have to do is write to us two questions at

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Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge dot com. So think about it for

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Speaker 1: a moment before you hear these answers. Do you think

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Speaker 1: nuclear power is worth the risks? Here's what people had

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Speaker 1: to say, Well, we certainly are aware of several high

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Speaker 1: profile incidents that have happened with nuclear power stations, including

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Speaker 1: journal Bill, which caused the public to give pause in

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Speaker 1: supporting nuclear power. But I believe we can't rule it

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Speaker 1: out as a source of energy given the rising demand

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Speaker 1: for energy of humans and the increasing need for us

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Speaker 1: to stop using fossil fuel. It's too about climate change disaster.

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Speaker 1: Nuclear power is definitely worth the risk, especially fusion reactors

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Speaker 1: as they produce only neutrons in some gamma radiation. Nuclear

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Speaker 1: power has benefits of producing large amount of electricity, and

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Speaker 1: the risks are the safety hazards, which I think can

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Speaker 1: be taken care of as long as the party is

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Speaker 1: involved take the precautions, and the waste, the radioactive waste

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Speaker 1: is the reason why we need to be moving towards

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Speaker 1: more sustainable powers, but are the current limitations of resources

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Speaker 1: we cannot so I think it's what there is gonna

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Speaker 1: But if you're talking about nukes, no, I think nuclear

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Speaker 1: power is for sure worth the risk. I haven't it

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Speaker 1: into this much, but from what I've seen, I think

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Speaker 1: nuclear power is definitely worth the risk. It's clean as

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Speaker 1: far as I really just have to worry about waste. Definitely, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I am a big deliver in nuclear power because it's

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Speaker 1: a clean source of energy, and history shows that we

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Speaker 1: haven't figured out yet how to don't have accidents with that.

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Speaker 1: But we did that in aviation, for example. We have

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Speaker 1: a very safe commercial aviation and market. So I'm very

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Speaker 1: confident that we'll get there on the nuclear as well.

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Speaker 1: I think so because it's better than getting the planet

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Speaker 1: with fossil fuels. And I don't say there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of option to generate constant power without nuclear until fusion

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Speaker 1: takes hole. Anyway, I'd imagine that it certainly is worth

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Speaker 1: the risks. I mean if by risks you mean like

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Speaker 1: natural desa masters like earthquakes and tsunamis, then I don't

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Speaker 1: see those happening too frequently. Um, I think they could

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Speaker 1: be you know, I have some preventative measures put in

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Speaker 1: place for those, and I think it's definitely worth the risks.

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Speaker 1: So I actually found these responses to be pretty uplifting.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people seem like they were generally in

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Speaker 1: support of nuclear power, although maybe your audience is a

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Speaker 1: particular subset of the world, so maybe it's not the

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Speaker 1: representative of the general public. There was one in there.

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Speaker 1: There were a fair number of optimistic responses. There was

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Speaker 1: one person who said, especially fusion reactors, and so we

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Speaker 1: had meant vision, but let's go ahead and talk about

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Speaker 1: what is the difference between the two of those. What

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Speaker 1: kind of nuclear power is running a lot of the

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Speaker 1: power plants that are going today. Yeah, I was also

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Speaker 1: a little surprised that our listeners are so pro nuclear,

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Speaker 1: but maybe that comes from their faith in science and

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Speaker 1: their fascination with technology. But you're right, there's a huge

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Speaker 1: difference between fusion and vision. Specifically, fission is something we

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Speaker 1: can do today. It powers the world partly we're able

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Speaker 1: to harness this nuclear process and use it to pull

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Speaker 1: electricity out of the hearts of atoms. But fusion is

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Speaker 1: something in the future. Fusion is something we have not

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Speaker 1: yet tackled, and speaking of the core physics of it,

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Speaker 1: remember that fission is when you take a big, heavy,

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Speaker 1: unstable nucleus like a uranium, atom or plutonium, and you

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Speaker 1: split it apart into two smaller nuclei, and when you

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Speaker 1: do that, you release energy. Conversely, fusion is the opposite.

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Speaker 1: You take light nuclei like hydrogen or helium and you

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Speaker 1: push them together, and when they fuse together to make

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Speaker 1: something heavier, they also release energy. And that seems kind

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Speaker 1: of confusing because you might think, well, what releases energy?

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Speaker 1: Is it breaking things up or is it pushing things together?

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Speaker 1: The answer for complicated nuclear physics reasons is that it

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Speaker 1: depends on what you're pushing or what you're splitting. If

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Speaker 1: you're taking really light elements like hydrogen or helium, then

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Speaker 1: pushing them together fusing them releases energy. You're taking really

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Speaker 1: heavy elements anything heavier than iron, than splitting them up

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Speaker 1: releases energy. Funny story, I memorized those definitions in reverse

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Speaker 1: once and it took a lot of work to get

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Speaker 1: them straight in my head afterwards, which was really important

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Speaker 1: because soon Ish included chapters originally on both of these topics,

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Speaker 1: so I had to get it right before the interviews started.

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Speaker 1: So I'd walk around the house and Zach would be like,

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Speaker 1: fusion go, and I would define it, and then later

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Speaker 1: in the day he'd be like, fission go. And eventually

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Speaker 1: we got it right. But actually, to this day, I

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Speaker 1: try to avoid using those terms because I'm worried I'm

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Speaker 1: going to blow it again. But we all have our things. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I actually worked on fusion research myself back in the

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Speaker 1: nineties when I was a young future scientist and I

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Speaker 1: was trying to figure out what kind of physics I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do with my life. I thought, fusion seems promising.

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Speaker 1: It's around the corner. It's going to save the world

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Speaker 1: by providing abundant energy so cheap you wouldn't even have

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Speaker 1: to charge for it. That was back in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: and you know, thirty year years later, so fusion is

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Speaker 1: sort of still around the corner. It's something that's been

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Speaker 1: promising and maybe been thirty years away for fifty years now.

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Speaker 1: So it's a little bit frustrating that we don't yet

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Speaker 1: have an ability to harness this incredible source of power,

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Speaker 1: the thing that fuels our sun and all the stars

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Speaker 1: out there. It would provide cheap energy. The fuel for

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Speaker 1: it is just water, produces almost no dangerous radioactive elements.

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Speaker 1: It would be wonderful, but unfortunately it's not something we

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Speaker 1: know yet how to get to work. And if you

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Speaker 1: want to hear more about it, we have a couple

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Speaker 1: of episodes about that, including ones about the huge reactor

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Speaker 1: in France eater I t e R that they are

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Speaker 1: currently building and they are hoping will provide energy. That

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Speaker 1: the thing costs about ten bajillion dollars. I think there

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Speaker 1: are some private companies that have recently made some pretty

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Speaker 1: exciting strides, also in far more compact and therefore more

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Speaker 1: affordable models. But but yeah, as as you suggested, it's

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Speaker 1: the technology of the future and may always be thus exactly,

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Speaker 1: And there's some companies here in southern California, some of

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Speaker 1: them who have spinoffs from U s I faculty who

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Speaker 1: has some really clever ideas that might make fusion work.

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Speaker 1: The problem we're facing with the environment, though, is that

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Speaker 1: we don't need a solution that's twenty years from now.

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Speaker 1: The crisis is so imminent that we really need something

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Speaker 1: very very soon to help us draw down our use

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Speaker 1: of energy sources which produce more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: So really we need to focus on things that we

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Speaker 1: can turn on almost immediately, and fission, of course, is

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Speaker 1: something we know how to do. We've been doing it

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Speaker 1: for something like fifty years. The typical process, and most

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Speaker 1: of the reactors in the United States comes from fission

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Speaker 1: of uranium. Uranium is something which is like exists all

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Speaker 1: over the world. We had an episode recently about uranium.

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Speaker 1: Is it on Urineus? And we talked about how uranium

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Speaker 1: is actually all over the Solar System. It's one of

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Speaker 1: the more prevalent elements in our Solar system. It's in

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Speaker 1: the ground, it's in the water, it's in the moon,

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Speaker 1: it's in asteroids, and it's also on Urinus. And we

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Speaker 1: only giggled a little episode. We were so good. We

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Speaker 1: were very much like adults. But of course there are

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Speaker 1: challenges with fission. The uranium that we find in our planet,

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Speaker 1: the stuff that we dig up and purify is mostly uranium.

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Speaker 1: Two thirty eight. Two thirty eight there tells you how

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Speaker 1: many protons and neutrons together are in the nucleus, and

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Speaker 1: you two thirty eight is fine, but it's not really

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Speaker 1: great for fission. It doesn't really like to split apart

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Speaker 1: and release energy the way other versions of uranium do,

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Speaker 1: specifically uranium two thirty five, which has three fewer neutrons,

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Speaker 1: but of course the same number of protons, so it's

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Speaker 1: still uranium. You two thirty five is great for fission,

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Speaker 1: It splits apart nicely, produces more neutrons. It's excellent, but

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Speaker 1: it's like, less than one percent of the uranium you

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Speaker 1: find naturally is you two thirty five. And here in

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Speaker 1: lies in my mind, the biggest concern with this technology

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Speaker 1: is that enriching the uranium to get more of that

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Speaker 1: two thirty five. A little bit of a process gives

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Speaker 1: you great fuel for reactions. A lot of that process

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Speaker 1: gives you the stuff that you need for nuclear bomb

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Speaker 1: and it's hard to know if a country is doing

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Speaker 1: just a little bit of enrichment or a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of the enrichment. And that's one of the big problems

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Speaker 1: with nuclear power in my opinion, because you're not in

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Speaker 1: favor of every country out there getting nuclear bombs and

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Speaker 1: tossing them at each other. You know, it makes me

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Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable me as well. And you bring up

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Speaker 1: a really interesting point which I think we should dig into,

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Speaker 1: which is the difference between a nuclear reactor and a

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Speaker 1: nuclear bomb, or a nuclear reactor or a nuclear chain

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Speaker 1: reaction is when you have a uranium atom which splits,

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Speaker 1: sends off more neutrons, which then triggers other uranium atoms

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Speaker 1: nearby to split and produce more neutrons. And the crucial

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Speaker 1: thing there is nearby you need enough uranium in a

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Speaker 1: sort of a dense enough package, and when these neutrons

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Speaker 1: fly out, they hit more uranium and they can trigger

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Speaker 1: more reactions. So if you have enriched your fuel to

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Speaker 1: like five per cent uranium two thirty five, then you

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Speaker 1: could have this sort of self sustain Any nuclear reaction

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Speaker 1: that produces energy and keeps going is sort of like ignition,

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Speaker 1: you know, like when you start a fire and then

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Speaker 1: it's hot enough that it burns the wood next to it,

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Speaker 1: which is then hot enough to burn the wood next

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Speaker 1: to it. You don't have to keep starting the fire.

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Speaker 1: So that's the nice thing about a self sustaining nuclear reaction.

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Speaker 1: A nuclear bomb, however, is something much more dramatic. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so I think, with the way I understand it, if

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Speaker 1: everything goes wrong in your nuclear reaction at a power plant,

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Speaker 1: it might blow apart. And you'd get an explosion, but

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Speaker 1: very quickly that would end the reaction. But in a

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Speaker 1: nuclear bomb, you've got so much of the right kind

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Speaker 1: of fuel in such a compact area that it has

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Speaker 1: time to undergo a lot more reactions before it blows

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Speaker 1: far enough apart that it can't react anymore. And so

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Speaker 1: you can get like an explosion at a nuclear power plant,

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Speaker 1: but never anything like a nuclear bomb explosion. Is that

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Speaker 1: would that be fair to say, Yeah, exactly, you can't

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Speaker 1: really make a nuclear power plant blow up with like

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Speaker 1: a mushroom cloud. You can do a lot of damage,

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Speaker 1: and you can get a lot of people, and you

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Speaker 1: can spread radiation everywhere, but you're not going to get

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Speaker 1: an actual nuclear explosion the way we get them in

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Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. And you're right. In order to do that,

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Speaker 1: you have to enrich your fuel much much further, so

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Speaker 1: you get much more fission going on much more rapidly,

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Speaker 1: because that's really what an explosion is. It's a very

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Speaker 1: rapid release of energy, so rapid that the energy release

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Speaker 1: sort of takes over and you get these like supersonic

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Speaker 1: shock waves through the material. So that's how fission work.

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Speaker 1: We're harnessing the power of the atom. We're breaking it

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Speaker 1: apart and releasing some of the energy that's stored inside

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Speaker 1: of it. If you like, you can think of the

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Speaker 1: atom is sort of like held together by springs, and

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Speaker 1: what you're doing is like unhooking those springs, so then

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Speaker 1: the bits like fly off and have a lot of

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Speaker 1: energy when they come out. One of the problems with

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Speaker 1: uranium two thirty five, though, is that when the neutrons

397
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Speaker 1: fly out, they're going a little bit too fast. Like

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Speaker 1: uranium two thirty five likes to get split at half

399
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Speaker 1: by a neutron, but it likes to get split in

400
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Speaker 1: half by neutrons that are not going too fast. So

401
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Speaker 1: you need something to sort of slow down those neutrons

402
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Speaker 1: so they're going just the right speed that they trigger

403
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Speaker 1: more you two thirty five in order to split. So

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Speaker 1: that's called a moderator, something to slow down those neutrons.

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Speaker 1: And most of the reactors we have here in the

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Speaker 1: United States and most of the ones produced around the

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Speaker 1: world are things called light water thermal reactors because they

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Speaker 1: use water as a way to moderate these neutrons because

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Speaker 1: water is great like just taking a little bit of

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Speaker 1: energy out of those neutrons and letting them continue on

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Speaker 1: to trigger another U two thirty five. Fun fact, my

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Speaker 1: understanding is that the light water thermal reactors are common

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Speaker 1: because we got a lot of experience with them with

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Speaker 1: naval submarines, because it was just sort of a convenient

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Speaker 1: design to put on submarines when we were starting to

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Speaker 1: try to use nuclear power to run those, and there

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Speaker 1: were other designs that were being tested at the time,

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Speaker 1: but because we've got the most experience with that one

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Speaker 1: while making it compact for submarines, that historically is sort

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Speaker 1: of why we've explored this design more than some of

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Speaker 1: the other designs. Well, there's other designs that might work

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Speaker 1: well too. It turns out there's a really large variety

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Speaker 1: of ways that you could build a nuclear reactor, and

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Speaker 1: the ones that we have comfort sort of weird policy

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Speaker 1: decisions that date back to like the early ages of

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Speaker 1: the atomic era. As you say, one reason is that

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Speaker 1: people wanted to put them on submarine, so you wanted

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Speaker 1: to have a plentiful source of water and you could

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Speaker 1: use water as your moderator. Another reason we have these

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Speaker 1: reactors is something I would actually put in these sort

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Speaker 1: of negative column for these reactors, which is that the

432
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,959
Speaker 1: you two thirty eight which is most of the fuel. Right,

433
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: even if you enrich your fuel so it's five percent

434
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: you two thirty five, you've got a lot of you

435
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: two thirty eight in your fuel rods. What happens to that, well,

436
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't fish in. What happens is that it gets

437
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: transmuted into really dangerous radioactive elements that last for like

438
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of years, so they don't produce anything useful,

439
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: but that you too thirty eight does get turned into

440
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: other really nasty stuff. And some of that nasty stuff,

441
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 1: like plutonium, is great for weapons. And so early on

442
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: the Department of Energy really liked this particular technology using

443
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: this very inefficient source of fuel because the other part

444
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: of the fuel could be turned into weapons grade fuel.

445
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: And so now we're sort of like up with this technology,

446
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 1: as you say, we do it because it's the one

447
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: we're most familiar with, even though the reason we chose

448
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: it is not really the reason we would choose today.

449
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: Stuff gets complicated, exactly. So, while nuclear power has great

450
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 1: benefits because they can produce this electricity from the heart

451
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: of the atom, and uranium is everywhere, we're unlikely to

452
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: run out of it very soon. There are of course

453
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: serious risks of nuclear power, and we've talked about weapons

454
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: as a potential risk, But of course another risk is

455
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: if something goes wrong with the power plant, you get

456
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: radioactive waste in that area. And this water design that

457
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: we've talked about has some benefits, it's got some negatives.

458
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: But a lot of the problems that we've had with

459
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: nuclear reactors have been about the water. Is that right?

460
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: Can you explain why water causes problem? Sometimes? Yeah, water

461
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: seems great, but the problem is that to keep water

462
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: a liquid, which is what you need to do in

463
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: order for it to moderate your reactions, you have to

464
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: have it at very very high pressures because the stuff

465
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: gets really hot and you don't want it to turn

466
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: into steam while it's still inside your reactor. Now you

467
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: have this very dangerous fuel and it's being moderated by

468
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: this very high pressure water. You have to build your

469
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: reactor with like very thick steel pipes to avoid this

470
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: thing exploding, and you have to actively pump the water through.

471
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: Like if your water pumps fail or the water jams

472
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 1: or the water leaks out or something, then you're not

473
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: moderating the reactor anymore. So it's a real critical safety

474
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 1: flaw if you're reactor requires active pumping, because then if

475
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: you lose power or something goes wrong, then things just

476
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 1: get worse rapidly, and that's the source of most of

477
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: the sort of more famous disasters in the nuclear power sector.

478
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: Three Mile Island was caused by jams in one of

479
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: the hatches that let the water flow. In Fukushima, of course,

480
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: there was a tsunami and it knocked out the water

481
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: pumps and so it couldn't cool down the reactor core.

482
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: In Chernobyl, of course, this water boiled and exploded, and

483
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: so all of these problems really are traced to having

484
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: water at very high pressures, which is very difficult to

485
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: maintain long term. But some of these problems have technological fixes.

486
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: Some of them don't, Like you could avoid a Fukushima

487
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 1: type accident by having a way to cool the reaction

488
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: down even if the power goes out, because those water

489
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: pumps that got knocked out depended on the electricity. And

490
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: now there's designs to cool the reaction down that don't

491
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: require electricity and would work passively. But something like Chernobyl,

492
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: like you had a technical problem, but the real problem

493
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: was the you know, autocratic government which didn't tell the

494
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: people that there was a major problem until Sweden detected

495
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: nuclear material in the air, at which point the USSR

496
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: had to say, oh, my bad. And so some of

497
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: these things technology can solve, and some of them are

498
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: just problems with humans, and those those problems are harder

499
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: to solve. I'd say they are harder to solve. And

500
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: if you imagine a future where we have like a

501
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: lot more nuclear power than those risks are multiplied. Because

502
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: humans make mistakes, they inevitably will. Yeah, and so we've

503
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: got these complicated cost benefit analyses that we need to do,

504
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: and so let's take a break and afterwards, let's talk

505
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: about whether or not we really need nuclear power. Do

506
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: we need to take these risks? Okay, so nuclear power

507
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: has this great ability to help us deal with the

508
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: climate change issue, but it has all of these problems

509
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: that we talked about, like risks of the creation of

510
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. Help us understand this cost benefit analysis better?

511
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: Do we really need this technology? We definitely need something, right,

512
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: We are currently burning a lot of coal and a

513
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: lot of natural gas to produce the energy that we use,

514
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 1: and that just can't go on much longer unless we

515
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: want to totally fry the planet. So there's a pretty

516
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: broad consensus that we need to move to a carbon

517
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: neutral production of energy and also our transportation sector. Those

518
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: are two things that are really driving climate change right now,

519
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: and so decarbonizing the world energy grid and the transportation

520
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: system is a huge priority. And the first question to

521
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,719
Speaker 1: ask is like, well, do we need nuclear at all?

522
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 1: Can we just do it without nuclear? Can't we just

523
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: do it with like solar panels and with water power

524
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: and with wind power, And that's really attractive. It would

525
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: be awesome if we could write solar panels are getting

526
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: cheap and wind power is getting very efficient, and so

527
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: it's nice to imagine that you might just be able

528
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: to like put nuclear power on the shelf and say

529
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: we don't really need it. We can just rely on renewables,

530
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: on these things which are green, which don't produce any carbon,

531
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: which don't require any sort of external fuel source. That

532
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: would be a fantasy. And they're definitely picking up a

533
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: lot of the slack. You know, my husband and I

534
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: have wanted to get solar panels for a long time,

535
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: and for almost a decade because we've been together for

536
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: thirteen years, so for about thirteen years, every year we

537
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: checked the cost of solar panels and of course are

538
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: you know, income increased over those thirteen years as we

539
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: got out of grad school, But like recently we decided,

540
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, it's dropped enough that we can afford it.

541
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: And solar and about the last decade has dropped by

542
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: like so it's becoming much more feasible, and wind has

543
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: dropped by like seven d percent. But you know, is

544
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: that going to be enough to pick up all of

545
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: the slack and to make up for all of these

546
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: nuclear power plants that are going offline and are being

547
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: replaced by coal. What do you think? So people are

548
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: doing a lot of studies about exactly that question, how

549
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: cheap can this get and can it really provide all

550
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: of the energy that we need? And what's clear is

551
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: that renewables will be the major chunk of it, Like

552
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,239
Speaker 1: eight percent of our energy should come from wind and

553
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: solar and water power in the future. The problem, of

554
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: course with these technologies is that they're pretty variable. I mean,

555
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 1: they depend a little bit on the weather. You've got

556
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: a cloudy day, you're not getting solar power. The wind

557
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: just doesn't blow, you're not getting your wind power. So

558
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: they're not as steady as things like burning coal. Where

559
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: you've got a pile of it, you need some energy,

560
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: you just burn some coal. And that variability is important,

561
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: right because if you've got a snowstorm, that's exactly when

562
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: you need the energy, right when your solar panels aren't

563
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: producing it. Absolutely. But now I'm hearing the space advocates

564
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: in my ear yelling, well, what about if you put

565
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: the solar panels in space where there's safe from weather. Yeah,

566
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: we had a really fun episode about space based solar power,

567
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: which on one hand sounds ridiculous, like putting solar panels

568
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: in space and then beaming them down to the Earth,

569
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: And it's actually a lot less ridiculous than you might imagine.

570
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: Though people still disagree about whether it will ever be

571
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: economically feasible to have these satellites out in space. But

572
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: we heard from somebody who claims that within ten years

573
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: they would have a facility up in space providing all

574
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: the power that Australia needs we sail see. But there's

575
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: a lot of skepticism for those sort of very elaborate strategies,

576
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: and the issue is, of course economics, Like if you

577
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: had infinite money, then none of this would be a question.

578
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you could provide all of the energy you

579
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: need using wind and solar if you just like massively overbuilt,

580
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: if you said, we're just gonna build ten times as

581
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: many solar panels as we need and ten times as

582
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: many wind farms as we need, so that even if

583
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: there's just a little bit of a gust of electricity

584
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: or just a few photons are creeping through, then we're

585
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: gonna be able to provide the energy. The issue, of course,

586
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: is the economics. If you really over build, then you're

587
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: paying a lot of money to produce electricity, and you're

588
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: also generating a lot more than you need. So this

589
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: problem of variability is a serious one, and we'll probably

590
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: limit these renewables from ever providing more than maybe eighty

591
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: percent of our needs. It's still pretty good though, but

592
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's not getting us all the way. Is

593
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: not getting us all the way, and so the question

594
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: really is what do we do for that extra twenty

595
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: Actually this an interesting story here. There's a lot of

596
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: arguments about this kind of thing in literature, and I

597
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: was reading a paper from a professor at Stanford who

598
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: was claiming that you could get to a renewable power,

599
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: even with just like pretty simple battery technology that we

600
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: have today. And then I found another paper that like

601
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: totally demolished that paper. I was reading the paper and

602
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: I was cringing. I was like, ouch, I would never

603
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: want to read a paper like this taking apart one

604
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: of my own scientific results. It was painful. And then

605
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: I discovered that this whole thing ended up in court.

606
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: You know, often people in science just like disagree with

607
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: each other. But the Stanford guy who had his paper

608
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: like totally dismantled in public by another paper, he sued

609
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: the authors of that paper, claiming that they had defamed

610
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: him and ruined his reputation. WHOA, I feel like, if

611
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: you're gonna sue someone, you better be a hundred sure

612
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: that you were right. Did he win or did he lose? No?

613
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: He lost. It turns out he was just suing them

614
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: as it would like intimidate them, to try to shove

615
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: them up, and he ended up suing them and also

616
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: the National Academy of Science. It was totally crazy, and

617
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: he ended up having to pay like more than half

618
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: million dollars in their legal fees. So this stuff gets heated.

619
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: You know, people are talking about this stuff and they

620
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: get up in arms. But the question that he raises

621
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: is an interesting one, which is like, why can't we

622
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: just use batteries. Why can't we build enough wind and

623
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: solar so that we on average get the right amount

624
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: of energy, and then we just have a bunch of

625
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: batteries so that we bank it when we produce a

626
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: little bit too much because it's an extra sunny day,

627
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: we store it for those days when it's cold and dark.

628
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, and you know, if we could make

629
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: this technology really dependable and get batteries to have incredibly

630
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: long lives, and we could also move to the moon,

631
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: and you find during those two week long nights where

632
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: it would be really nice to be able to store

633
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: up the solar power that you got near the equator. Anyway,

634
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not the one who's currently waiting for

635
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: the technology let me move to the moon. It's not

636
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: the way I listened to technology news. But that's good

637
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: to hear that that's an aspiration of yours counting. Well,

638
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: you know, the moon doesn't have any interesting parasites, so

639
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be moving there either. But you know,

640
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: I know there are people who are excited about it,

641
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: So I'm rooting for good battery power for them. There

642
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: are tarte Grades on the moon though that that kind

643
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: of a parasite one no, and to they're probably dead,

644
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 1: I would guess I'm rooting for the Tartar Grade empire

645
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: living on the moon. But back to the question of batteries.

646
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: You know, it would be great if we had batteries

647
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: that could do that, and currently we have the kind

648
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: of battery technology that would let you store energy for

649
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: like one day or two days, but you know, sometimes

650
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: it goes dark or still for weeks, and so what

651
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: you really need if you're gonna like reliably produce use

652
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: energy using just renewables, is battery technology that can hold

653
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: week's worth of energies, and it's just not something that

654
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: we currently have. No. When when we got our solar panels,

655
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: we asked if we could get batteries to hold us

656
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: over through the storm rather than buying the generators, which

657
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: were estimated at fifteen thou dollars, and the solar panel

658
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: guy who would have been selling us the batteries was like, no,

659
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: it's way too expensive and you guys lose power for

660
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: six days at a time. There's no way your batteries

661
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: are going to cover that. Uh, And I was surprised

662
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: that the battery power wasn't even that good, which seems

663
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: like a pretty low bar. But anyway, hopefully we make

664
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: some progress there. Yeah, and again it's a question of economics,

665
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: like you could if you poured a huge amount of

666
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: money into it, but we just don't have the technology

667
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: to make this feasible at that scale. And I think

668
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: that's really fascinating because batteries are so important, not just

669
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: for cars but also for phones. So there's a huge

670
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: economic pressure to being able to produce longer lasting batteries

671
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: and more efficient batteries. But batteries are a difficult technology.

672
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: We record an episode last year about why we don't

673
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: have electric powered airplanes yet, and the answer is because

674
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: it's difficult to store all that energy in a lightweight form.

675
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: And battery technology is moving kind of slowly, but there

676
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: are promising directions people are exploring, you know, avoiding using

677
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: things like rare earth metals, using just iron and air

678
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: and water. A bunch of people trying to innovate in

679
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: this space. But again, you know, what we need is

680
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: something soon. It's possible that battery technology will be totally

681
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: transformed in six months when somebody comes up with a

682
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: great idea. But we can't really rely on somebody being

683
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: a genius six months from now. We need something like

684
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: tomorrow that we can use to reduce our CEO two emissions.

685
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: So what are some other right now options that we

686
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: could use. There are a few other carbon neutral, non

687
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: nuclear options that we could explore. You know. One of

688
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: them is producing hydrogen gas. Hyrogen doesn't have carbon in it, right.

689
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: You can think of producing hydrogen as sort of like

690
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: a chemical battery. You take the extra energy that you

691
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: have and you use it to split water, so electrolysis,

692
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: you split the hydrogen and the oxygen apart from each other,

693
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: and then you store this hydrogen. Hygen, of course, is

694
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: a great fuel. You can burn it, you can put

695
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: it into a fuel cell to generate electricity, sort of

696
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: like a longer lasting way to store your energy. Why

697
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: aren't we doing that? We are doing that. We have

698
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: some of that technology, but it's not ready to scale

699
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: up to like twenty percent of our energy grid. You know,

700
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: fuel cell technology is not really there, Like you don't

701
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: see a whole lot of fuel cell cars out there

702
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: on the road, and for a reason. Also, hydrogen very

703
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: very dangerous, right, Like we all remember the Hindenburg. You know,

704
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: hydrogen is extremely volatile, and ramping up our energy grid

705
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: to use a huge amount of it would of course

706
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: come with its own dangers. Yeah, okay, so what about

707
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: things like bio Biofuels are a really fascinating idea because

708
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 1: while they do emit CEO two, this this cool cycle.

709
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: Like when you grow corn in order to turn it

710
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: eventually into ethanol, your pull CEU two out of the atmosphere,

711
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: which is then released again when you burn the ethanol.

712
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: So while it's not reducing the CEO two in the atmosphere,

713
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: it isn't adding to it either, right, So it's a hydrocarbon,

714
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: but it's not a fossil fuel, right. You're not digging

715
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: up carbon from underground which has been sequestered for millions

716
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: of years and releasing it anew into the atmosphere, which

717
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: is what happens when you burn coal. So bio fuels

718
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: are cool because you're pulling CEU two out of the

719
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: atmosphere before releasing it again. That's an improvement. Sometimes I

720
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: feel like we've gone so far that nothing short of

721
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: removing some of the carbon dioxide that we put up

722
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: there already is going to do the trick. But it's

723
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: funny as an ecologist, and I feel like when you

724
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: suggest this, this is one of the suggestions that actually

725
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: makes people the most angry, so that the suggestion is

726
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: that we could capture that carbon that's already been put

727
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: in the atmosphere and store it. And the reason it

728
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: makes people angry is that it seems to remove the

729
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: responsibility of changing your behavior to things that are more responsible,

730
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: and so it makes people mad. But I sort of

731
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: feel like, maybe we need to do this in concert

732
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: with more responsible things like biofuels and maybe nuclear power.

733
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: But I'm actually not super up to date on the

734
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: different methods people are proposing for carbon capture and storage.

735
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: Are you up to date on the methods? Yeah, So

736
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different technology in both of those

737
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: areas biofuels and in carbon capture. For biofuels, you know,

738
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: one thing is just like produce ethanol from corn, and

739
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: that's all right, but it's not great because you're still

740
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: feeding it into a gas power transportation system, right, and

741
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: you can't run cars on a hundred percent biofuels, you know,

742
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work. You need like ten, which means

743
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: the rest of it is still gasoline, so it sort

744
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: of prevents the electrification of the transportation grid. And people

745
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: also argue about whether biofuels really are carbon neutral. You know,

746
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: for example, if you're going to turn corn into biofuels

747
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: and you need to make more farmland to produce that corn,

748
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: which means you're chopping down forests to make more farmland,

749
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: which releases c O two. So there's a really complicated

750
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: calculation there about whether these biofuels really are carbon neutral.

751
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: And about ten years ago, there was a huge push

752
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: to do microalgae based biofuels, like to take algae, these

753
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: tiny little plants and genetically engineer them so they produced ethanol,

754
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: like insert into them the proteins they needed, so on

755
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: a biochemical level they could like fabricate fuel, which seemed

756
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: really awesome, and so many people got involved in startups.

757
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: People I knew in grad school like jumped onto this.

758
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: They thought it was the energy of the future. But

759
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: it hasn't really worked out because it's really difficult to

760
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: scale that up and to make it efficient such a

761
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: pain when you get them at high densities, they really

762
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: released toxins to fight with each other, and they just

763
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: don't cooperate the way you'd like them to. Carbon capture

764
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: is the same. It's exciting the idea that you could

765
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: like pull carbon out of the atmosphere, but it also

766
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: is really expensive. You know. One strategy is to try

767
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: to scrub emissions, Like you're at a coal plant and

768
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: you have something on the smoke stack which like pulls

769
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: the CEO two out of those emissions. The way it

770
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: does it by running it through this vessel that has

771
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: a liquid solvent that can absorb the CEO two, and

772
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: then you take that solvent, you release the CEO two

773
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: somewhere else in a safe way that you can capture,

774
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: and then you can just store it underground. But again,

775
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: that's like removing or reducing the CEO two from emissions.

776
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: What you'd really like to do is just like suck

777
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: the CEU two out of the atmosphere itself, right, sort

778
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: of make up for the mistakes that we've made so far.

779
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: That technology exists, but it's really expensive, and so until

780
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: somebody improves that or we have no other cheap option,

781
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: it's not going to be the option that we go

782
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: to and you might almost rather just like over build

783
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: your solar or wind farms than do a lot of

784
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: carbon capture. Yeah, one carbon capture also seems a little

785
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: scary because, like, do we understand what's happening well enough

786
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: to be able to like know what rate we should

787
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: be sucking it out of the atmosphere? Could things we

788
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: didn't predict happen? And I don't know. Whenever you're doing

789
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: large scale tinkering, things gets a little dicey. Maybe exactly

790
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: do you trust engineers with the fate of our planet?

791
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I really believe in their models. And

792
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: then another not nuclear carbon neutral option is hydro power.

793
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: And there's some countries like New Zealand and Norway that

794
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: have like beautiful fiords and lots of waterfalls that have

795
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: a significant fraction of their energy coming from hydro power.

796
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: And that's great, but you know, Iowa doesn't have a

797
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: whole lot of hydro power, and Kansas doesn't have a

798
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: whole lot of hydro power, so it's not like a

799
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: general solution for the whole grid. Well, and as an

800
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: aquatic ecologist, there are environmental implications to damning things up

801
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: as well, so it's not quite straightforward exactly, and then

802
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: in another direction, like a sort of horse strategy, is

803
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: just to say, hey, look, people, you just don't always

804
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: get energy when you want it, like when you go

805
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: at a hundred percent renewable, and it's going to be

806
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: not always reliable. And maybe that's just the way we

807
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: need to live. Maybe the issue is like us demanding

808
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: that we always have power whenever we need it. Maybe

809
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: that's just too much to ask. Well, you know, if

810
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: you lived in a place like Siberia, you'd probably be

811
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: pretty happy about having reliable energy. But I suppose people

812
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: can plan. You know, we know our power goes out

813
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: here pretty often, so we have a wood burning stove

814
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: for heat during those periods. So I suppose people could

815
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: plan for their power to get cut when renewables can't

816
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: keep up. But that's an inconvenience that I think many

817
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: countries would not be willing to absorb. Yeah, and you

818
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: need power not just your kids can play fruit ninja,

819
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: but also to do things like emergency surgeries. Right, it's important,

820
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: and so it's not something that modern societies are sort

821
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: of willing to stomach. We need like stable power when

822
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: we need it. Okay, so we've just talked about options

823
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 1: other than nuclear that might be helpful at some point

824
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: in the future. Let's return to nuclear after this break. Okay,

825
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: So one of the nice things about nuclear is it's

826
00:41:54,680 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: a no carbon emissions options that is reliable. How me

827
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: a bit about how many reactors we've got running and

828
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: how much power they're providing right now. Yeah, nuclear is

829
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: something that exists right now, you know, and it's a

830
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: significant fraction of our energy budget already around the world.

831
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: Is something between five and ten percent of worldwide energy

832
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: and it varies a lot country to country. In France,

833
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: for example, in Sweden, it's a huge fraction of their

834
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: energy output. Here in the US, it's about twenty percent

835
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: of the energy grid is provided by nuclear reactors and

836
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: that's from you know, something like fifty six reactors in

837
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: the US are producing a huge amount of power, and

838
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 1: it's very constant. You know, it runs rain or shine,

839
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: wind or not. It's a very stable source of energy

840
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: in the US, to be honest, that's more than I

841
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: would have guessed. Uh, And I saw recently France just

842
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: announced that they're going to be doing a lot more

843
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: nuclear reactors, are going to be building more as part

844
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: of their climate change mitigation strategy. What sort of like

845
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: predictions or projections are people working with, Like how much

846
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 1: do we need to increase nuclear power to be able

847
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: to make a dent in this problem? Well, when the

848
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: u WHEN makes its predictions for like how we can

849
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: avoid overheating the planet by more than one point five degrees,

850
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: that's the current target. They have a variety of different

851
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: strategies here, but every single strategy they describe includes increasing

852
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: nuclear power. The most conservative one increases nuclear power by

853
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty percent, and there are other scenarios

854
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: where it goes up to like fo increase. So the

855
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: u N is basically counting on us increasing our nuclear

856
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 1: production as a critical element to go into carbon neutral energy. So,

857
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: in my mind, if we're going to hit that goal,

858
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: it's going to be critical to get people to think

859
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: differently about nuclear power. And maybe part of getting them

860
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: to think differently is by convincing them we've figured out

861
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: some of the safety problems. I know there are some

862
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: advances in nuclear reactor safety. Can you tell us about

863
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: some of those. Yeah, A lot of the issues people

864
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: are familiar with about nuclear power, these explosions, having high

865
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: pressure water and producing these very dangerous elements which will

866
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: take tens of thousands of years to decay. Those are

867
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: not features of more modern designs of nuclear power plants.

868
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,959
Speaker 1: So Johan I had an episode a few weeks ago

869
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: about molten salt reactors that can operate a much lower pressure,

870
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: like atmospheric pressures, so that they don't have this danger

871
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 1: of possibly exploding, and also they have a passive safety system.

872
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: You actually mix the fuel in with the molten salt,

873
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: and then if the thing overheats, it melts a frozen

874
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: salt plug and the whole thing just sort of drains

875
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: out and the reaction stops. So instead of needing active

876
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: power to cool your thing, you need power to keep

877
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: the thing going. And so if something fails, it's much

878
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: safer because the whole reaction just sort of screeches to

879
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: a halt. And you can also use different fuels than uranium.

880
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: If you start with thorium instead of uranium two thirty eight,

881
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: thorium decays and uranium two thirty three, which is excellent

882
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: for fission and much more efficient because you can like

883
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: use all of the fuel rather than having part of

884
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: it hang out and turn into these really terrible, long

885
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: lasting isotopes that will poison the earth for tens of

886
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: thousands of years. It's still not pretty. I mean, you're

887
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: producing things like c c M one thirty seven, which

888
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: is super deadly, but it's half life is like decades

889
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: instead of tens of thousands of years, so you don't

890
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: have to build facilities which will you know, survive any

891
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 1: earthquake in the next fifty years. Yeah, and you're reading

892
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: about some of these new technologies for making the reactors safer. Like,

893
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: to be honest, it's all pretty dry reading, but I

894
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: think it's some of the some of the most clever

895
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: engineering solutions I think I've ever heard about are being

896
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: employed in some of the are at least plans being

897
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: employed in some of these reactors, like the plug that

898
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: just melts away and drains even if there isn't power

899
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: to stop the reaction. Like, there's some really clever designs.

900
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: Hopefully we get a chance to try some of these out. Yeah,

901
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: and it's incredible variety in your book with Zach Soonish,

902
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 1: I know you guys had to cut this chapter of

903
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: nuclear power, but I encourage all of our listeners to

904
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: go and follow the link. Will include in the show

905
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: notes that has really fun and detailed dive into the

906
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: future of nuclear technologies and all these different varieties. So

907
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: the short version is that the kind of technology we're

908
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: using today, these light water reactors, has particular disadvantages, but

909
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,479
Speaker 1: those advantages don't exist in every form of nuclear power.

910
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: So there are safer, more stable varieties of nuclear power.

911
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 1: And among nuclear engineers, they're pretty confident that we could

912
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: build nuclear reactors which are safe. Yeah, and you know,

913
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: some of the designs that that you just mentioned have

914
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: their own safety risks that have to be mitigated which

915
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: are a little bit different, But in general we are

916
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: moving towards designs that are safer and it's it's an

917
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: exciting time. But as we talked about, an issue is

918
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: that we need this stuff today, Like we can't just

919
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: wait fifteen twenty years for these new reactors to get

920
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: figured out and for the government to figure out how

921
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: to make them safe and to regulate them, etcetera. We

922
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,240
Speaker 1: need this stuff very soon. And one problem with nuclear

923
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: power is that it's not quick. You can't be like

924
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna build a nuclear power plant and then have

925
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: one running a year later. It takes ten years, sometimes

926
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: fifteen years because of all the regulations. Yeah, and I

927
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: don't think anybody wants to say we shouldn't be relating

928
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: nuclear power, but it does seem like getting nuclear power

929
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: plants online requires a lot more licensing that's a lot

930
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: more expensive than you know, what comfortable people would have

931
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: to do, or you know, like what what you'd have

932
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: to go through to set up a new coal powered

933
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: power plant. And that really does seem to be stopping

934
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: the implementation of a lot of these new technologies which

935
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: could make a big difference for climate change. They really could.

936
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: And something I didn't appreciate it until recently is that

937
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: there's a big variation from country to country. Like this

938
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 1: kind of regulatory overload is a feature of the United

939
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: States where basically every power plant is a one off

940
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: design specific to that location, and there hasn't been a

941
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: lot of like streamlining and modularization of these nuclear plans

942
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: in other countries, like in France, they basically build the

943
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: same power plant over and over again, and so they

944
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: get really good at it and it becomes cheaper. I

945
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: read this hilarious description where somebody said France has two

946
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: types of reactors and hundreds of types of cheese. In

947
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: the United States, it's the other way around, Like we

948
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: sort of lost out on the deal there, didn't we Yeah, No,

949
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm definitely wishing I was French right now. But the

950
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: United States is trying to address that. There's companies, i

951
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: think it's called New Scale is working on these tiny

952
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: modular reactors that need to be less sort of made

953
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: specifically to the location that they're going to, and they

954
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: can just be sort of like plugged in and they're

955
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: small and cheaper, and as your town grows, you can

956
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: plug more of them in sort of like plugging in

957
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: new batteries, and so like recognized that this is a

958
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: problem and people are trying to deal with it. It's

959
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: just sort of slow getting there. Yeah, and it's gonna

960
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: take a while. It's not like something we can overhaul overnight,

961
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: and unfortunately we don't have a lot of time left. Meanwhile,

962
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: other countries like China and India and Korea are building

963
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: new plants, and they're also developing new styles of plants.

964
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: Like thorium is going to be a big deal in

965
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: China and in India. India has a huge fraction of

966
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: the world's thorium reserves and so it's investing in that

967
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: and a question is like can the US do that? Also,

968
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: can we pivot and build new plants, because in the

969
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: last ten years or so, we've just been retiring reactors

970
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: and when that happens, we end up replacing that with

971
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: fossil fuels. And I think part of why we do

972
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: that is because nuclear power has a horrible pr problem,

973
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: and that's because when something goes wrong, it goes wrong

974
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: in like a big way that all of us are

975
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: scared about because we watched Captain Planet as a kid,

976
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: and like, the accidents have names that we remember, like

977
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: Three Mile Island and Fukushima and Chernobyl, But actually, you know,

978
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: no deaths is ever the appropriate number of deaths for

979
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: any technology is zero ideally, but like the number for

980
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: nuclear reactor accidents, the number of deaths is actually way

981
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: lower than the global picture for coal. So like three

982
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: Mile Island, I think that was like zero deaths. Fukushima

983
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 1: had a serious impact on the community, but I don't

984
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: think it had a lot of deaths. Chernobyl had a

985
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: few thousand, again, way too many. But if you would

986
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: warnant people, they could have gotten out of there and

987
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: it you could have saved a lot of lives just

988
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: with advanced warning which was available but was just withheld

989
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: by the government. But cold deaths, you know, you get

990
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 1: all of these chemicals into the environment, you get arsenic, mercury, lead,

991
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: And whereas nuclear waste can easily get contained in buckets

992
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: and then stored far away from people with cold power plants,

993
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: we just spew the stuff into the atmosphere where we

994
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: can't really capture it easily. And oh, man, I can't

995
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: remember the figures for how many people have died or

996
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: estimated to have died from cold deaths. Do you happen

997
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: to know those numbers? It's something like the number of

998
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: people who have been killed in sixty years of nuclear

999
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: power are killed every month by the coal industry and

1000
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: by natural gas. And you're right, like, every time there's

1001
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: nuclear disaster, it's like an airplane crash, it's on the news,

1002
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: people talk about it, whereas you know, they're like natural

1003
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: gas explosions all the time. They killed dozens of people.

1004
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: It just happened so often that we don't even talk

1005
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: about it. It's like car crashes versus airplane travel. Cars

1006
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: are much more dangerous than airplanes, but people are more

1007
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: scared of traveling on the airplanes and so it's something

1008
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: of an emotional question. And I think we were joking

1009
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: about the Simpsons earlier. But that's really part of it,

1010
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: is how it's been portrayed in the media. And I

1011
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: think partly it's just been unlucky. Like the Three Mile

1012
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 1: Island accident that happened in the US. It actually happened

1013
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: twelve days after the release of a movie, The China Syndrome,

1014
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: that portrays the meltdown at a fictional plant. And I

1015
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: think because that movie introduced the idea in people's minds

1016
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: and then made them scared, and then there was an

1017
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 1: actual accident like two weeks later, it gave people the

1018
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: impression like, wow, this dangerous thing I just heard about

1019
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: can actually happen in poison the planet. And it sort

1020
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 1: of sparked the anti nuclear movement. And that makes sense,

1021
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: you know, in the depths that happened in response to

1022
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: a problem with the nuclear power plant, like happened at

1023
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: that plant at that moment, whereas cold deaths are like

1024
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: way more disperse and harder to like, you know, get

1025
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: wrap your mind around. But you know, if if you

1026
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: think about coal powered power plants as contributing to global

1027
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,399
Speaker 1: climate change and you know, increasing the frequency of things

1028
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 1: like tornados and wildfires and you know, all these other

1029
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: things that also kill people. The number is hard to estimate,

1030
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,439
Speaker 1: but it but it's a pretty big number. And so

1031
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: I feel like we need to have a big pr

1032
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: push for nuclear power plans to sort of explain these

1033
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 1: numbers and still let people make decisions, because there's still

1034
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: complicated decisions that need to be made regarding you know,

1035
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: weapons and stuff like that. But I do feel like

1036
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: people don't recognize that that nuclear power has a much

1037
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: better record in terms of you know, death toll than

1038
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: things like cold power power plants. We've been talking about

1039
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: the risks of nuclear versus other sources, but really it's

1040
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: a question of like nuclear power versus climate change. Like

1041
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: climate change is definitely going to kill thousands or millions

1042
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: of people, and so in comparison, you know, how do

1043
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 1: we balance the certain death of nuclear power versus certain

1044
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: deaths from climate change. It's a difficult topic. It's really

1045
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: difficult because you know, especially if if you factor in

1046
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 1: governments that you don't trust getting accident or access to

1047
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, that could up the death toll quite a bit.

1048
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: You're going up against climate change, these are difficult decisions

1049
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: that need to be so I reached out to an

1050
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: expert in nuclear engineering and also in science communication to

1051
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: ask her her opinion about how she thought we should

1052
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: talk to people in communities about nuclear power. Here's what

1053
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: she had to say. All right, well, then it's my

1054
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: pleasure to introduce to the podcast Katie Muma, who is

1055
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: a graduate student in nuclear engineering. Katie, thanks very much

1056
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: for talking to us. Yeah, thanks for having me. So

1057
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: my first question for you is about the future of

1058
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: nuclear technology. In your opinion, what is the most promising

1059
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: technology for safe, clean nuclear power. I get asked this

1060
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: question a lot, and I think people aren't expecting me

1061
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 1: to say that I don't have a favorite or most

1062
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 1: likely to succeed. I think that there's a lot of

1063
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: possibility for the future of nuclear energy, and really it

1064
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: comes down to finding a good team of people who

1065
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: can build a company or an organization, and how well

1066
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: they can fit into the landscape of exist staying energy

1067
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: production and in the US, how well they can fit

1068
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: into the regulatory hurdles of getting a nuclear reactor licensed.

1069
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: And honestly, I think a lot of different technologies could succeed,

1070
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: and it's not going to be the technology alone that

1071
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: determines whether or not they succeed. So then what are

1072
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: the biggest hurdles to getting more nuclear plants up? Is

1073
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: it the regulatory landscape. There's definitely challenges there, at least

1074
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 1: in the United States, are regulatory system is not really

1075
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: built for advanced nuclear technologies. It's really been spun up

1076
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: to meet the existing reactors, which are one kind of

1077
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: reactor that use um light water what we think of

1078
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: is regular water as as a cooling technology. But that's

1079
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: not the only thing there's There's lots of other challenges.

1080
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: Cost is a big one too. It does take a

1081
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: lot of money to design a nuclear reactor, to construct

1082
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 1: a nuclear react actor, and the cost of capital can

1083
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: be something that really holds reactors back. If you need

1084
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: to spend billions of dollars up front and only start

1085
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: generating money or return on your investment ten or fifteen

1086
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: years later. You know, that's the kind of thing that

1087
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: a small startup company can't necessarily do, so that's been

1088
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: a big challenge. And also just whether or not these

1089
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: technologies are valued by the countries or the states or

1090
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: the localities that they're being proposed. In nuclear energy is

1091
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 1: a low carbon technology, but sometimes it's not recognized as

1092
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: having low carbon values. Sometimes it's not recognized for being

1093
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: a baseload or or a high reliability source of electricity,

1094
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: And so countries can sort of support it by by

1095
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: giving you know, financial incentives, tax breaks. They're multiple ways

1096
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 1: of going about it, um if they support those values

1097
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: those attributes, or they can choose not to do that.

1098
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: And in today's world, we see that it can be

1099
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: tough for our existing reactors to compete, especially with low

1100
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 1: cost natural gas. But that's a fossil fuel, So there's

1101
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: a couple of different challenges, but cost regulation those are

1102
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: some big ones, as well as community support. So given

1103
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: the pressing issues of climate change, can we bring nuclear

1104
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: power online fast enough to provide the complement we need

1105
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: to renewables? Is there still time to build new nuclear

1106
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: plans to fill in that gap? Yeah, So I think

1107
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: there's some disagreements. Some people believe if we just dropped

1108
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: everything and went full speed ahead on nuclear technology today,

1109
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: then nuclear could be the bulk of our electricity um

1110
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: going forward. I'm a little bit more of a pragmatist

1111
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: and I like to say that nuclear energy is not

1112
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,720
Speaker 1: going to be spun up realistically in a significant amount

1113
00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: in the next five ten years, but it can have

1114
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: a crucial role in that last third of decarbonization with electricity,

1115
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 1: but also with energy. There's so much industrial need for energy,

1116
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: transportation need for energy, you know, cargo shipping, where those

1117
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: are going to be some of the biggest challenges to decarbonizing.

1118
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: Getting all the way from low carbon to to a

1119
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: hundred is a lot easier than going from zero to

1120
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: five to fifty even And I think that's where nuclear

1121
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: technology can really play a valuable role, But only if

1122
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: we continue to support it and work on it now,

1123
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: because this is a long runway, and if we don't

1124
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: support it now, then it won't be ready in time

1125
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: to help us with these long term challenges. I see

1126
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: other countries China and India bringing nuclear plans up to

1127
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: speed much more quickly, and seems like we can do

1128
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: in the US. Is that a good role model for

1129
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 1: the U S. Should we be streamlining our regulations to

1130
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: follow China? Or is that like a potential hazard, something

1131
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: that might lead to like another chernobyl things aren't managed actorately.

1132
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: What's the better model? Well, I do think there are

1133
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: just some differences that we're never going to square. We

1134
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: don't have a state owned electricity system in the US,

1135
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: and I don't think we're moving towards that. So I

1136
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: don't think we could ever even be a reflection, a

1137
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: one to one reflection of those kind of systems. But

1138
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: certainly there are a lot of criticisms in the way

1139
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: that the existing regulatory structure in the US really sort

1140
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 1: of hampers innovation and makes it tough for these future

1141
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: technologies to even see a pathway to getting licensed. Obviously,

1142
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: regulations are super important, very pro regulation. You know, these

1143
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: are technologies that have the potential to be dangerous, but

1144
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: there needs to be a pathway for them to succeed,

1145
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: and this is something that the US is working on.

1146
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: The Nuclear Regulatory Commission is in the process of developing

1147
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: a new set of regulations for these advanced reactors, but

1148
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: that won't be ready until four at the absolute earliest.

1149
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: So certainly a lot of us wish that there was

1150
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 1: a way to speed this process up to give these

1151
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: technologies a fair chance to succeed, because, like you said,

1152
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: there is a chance that the US is too slow

1153
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: in doing this, and maybe we'll build some of these

1154
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: in the US, but maybe Russian China is going to

1155
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: run ahead of US, and I don't think that's a

1156
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: safety concern, you know, I don't want people to be afraid.

1157
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: Oh no, a Russian reactor is going to be built

1158
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: in ex country, or a Chinese reactor is going to

1159
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: be built in Y country. I'm not considering that a

1160
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: safety risk. But the US does like to see itself

1161
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: as a leader in nuclear technology and a leader in

1162
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 1: the you know, diplomatic benefits that come with sharing our

1163
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: domestically produced technology. So certainly I would like to see

1164
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: the US um continue to be a global player, but

1165
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: I'm also excited to see that other countries are running

1166
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: full steam ahead and exporting their own technology. Let's talk

1167
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: about the risk. Then, you're an expert in nuclear engineering,

1168
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: but you also have a lot of experience in science communication.

1169
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: How do we talk about the risk with the general

1170
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: public and policymakers who are not experts in a way

1171
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: that's fair and balanced and lets people address it without

1172
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: necessarily making them overreact to the scary side of it.

1173
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: So one thing that I'm a huge advocate of is

1174
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 1: the process of consent and even true participation from a community.

1175
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: So historically in the us. There's been a lot of

1176
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: decide announced defend type of building nuclear reactors, Like companies said,

1177
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: we're going to build it here, and we're just going

1178
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: to fight anyone who disagrees with us. We're going to

1179
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: fight any activists and sometimes the nuclear company want and

1180
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: sometimes the activists want. But pitting against each other like

1181
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: that is not how you make people feel like they're heard,

1182
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: like their concerns are valued, And it's a lot tougher,

1183
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: it's a lot slower to actually try to work with

1184
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: a community from the start. But we know from studying

1185
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: how humans perceive risk that when people feel like there's

1186
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: an outlet for their voice to be heard, when they

1187
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: feel like they have the ability to ask their questions

1188
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: and even provide feedback that may be taken into account

1189
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: that they have some control over the process, that they

1190
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 1: then turn around and feel more trust they feel more secure,

1191
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 1: And so I think it's super important that anyone deciding

1192
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: to build a nuclear technology really think their strategy of

1193
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: working with the community and even incorporating their feedback as

1194
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: a way to change the risk perception, which can be

1195
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: so hard for scientists because I'm not making any you know,

1196
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: the reactors are already safe. Nuclear engineers often say, well,

1197
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: we just need to convince people it's safe, But really

1198
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: working with the community and keeping them as partners is

1199
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: going to be more effective in changing people's minds about

1200
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: the risk than trying to teach them principles of risk

1201
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: analysis or throwing a bunch of numbers at them and saying,

1202
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: why won't you believe me? So you're saying it's more

1203
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: of including them in the process and making them feel

1204
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: comfortable than like an educational process where you want them

1205
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: to come to the same decision on their own. Yeah,

1206
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean there is some education there, but one of

1207
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: the real challenges is that oftentimes we view education as

1208
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 1: a one way street. We have the answers. We understand

1209
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: the science and you don't. We're gonna tell you what

1210
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,959
Speaker 1: you need to know, and that is not a way

1211
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: that people's minds are changed. I think many of us

1212
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: can think of a time where we felt that we

1213
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: understood something better than our friend or family member, and

1214
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: if we just told them what we knew that they

1215
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: would change their minds. And it doesn't work like that

1216
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 1: very often. And so if we rethink how we can

1217
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: go from a one way flow of information to a

1218
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 1: dialogue and actually recognize that people who have been living

1219
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 1: in a community for years and perhaps their whole life

1220
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: may actually have something to teach the nuclear company. They

1221
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,919
Speaker 1: may actually be able to provide useful input if we

1222
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 1: open that flow back up and don't just collect public

1223
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 1: comments and then throw them in a box, but actually

1224
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: respond to them. That's that's what I'm saying. So there

1225
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 1: is still education, but it's two way. I think it's

1226
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 1: it's a real dialogue. That's a very cool way to

1227
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: think about it. So then last question, let me ask

1228
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: you to peer into your nuclear crystal ball. If you

1229
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: had to predict what the energy mix would be in

1230
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: the US in what do you think is the future.

1231
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: We're going to have more nuclear, We're gonna have less nuclear.

1232
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 1: The range of possibilities so large. I would really like

1233
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 1: to see thirty two of our electricity mix being nuclear.

1234
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: I think it's harder to predict with energy, and honestly,

1235
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: I think the bounds are very large. I think that

1236
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: the reality is we may stumble flat on our face

1237
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: and that number could be close to zero. I also

1238
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 1: think that if we hit the magic spark with some

1239
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: of these technologies working right now, that we could see

1240
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: that number closer to to France and see fifties sixty, seventy,

1241
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: but I think both of those are less likely. And

1242
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to put myself in the middle of this

1243
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: sort of thirty with the ball made up by by

1244
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: renewable sources. I don't think we're on the pathway right

1245
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: now to to fully decarbonize, even in that timeline. All right, great,

1246
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: thanks very much for sharing your ideas and your thoughts.

1247
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right,

1248
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: what did you think about her comments, Kelly? I think

1249
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: she made a lot of really great points. I think

1250
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: nuclear power is something that you can't just sort of

1251
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 1: push on people, or you can, but getting community buy

1252
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: in is an important part of getting nuclear power in

1253
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 1: a lot more cities. Maybe you can push it on

1254
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 1: one city, but the pushback is probably going to make

1255
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: you less likely to be able to put a nuclear

1256
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 1: power plant, you know, in some other town. So I

1257
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: think she had some really good points about the way

1258
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: we need to move forward, and I think her prediction

1259
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 1: for how many nuclear power plants we might end up

1260
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: with we're super reasonable, which is a pretty rare thing

1261
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 1: for a prediction these days. And so yeah, I think

1262
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: she made some great points. Yeah, I agree, it's something

1263
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 1: that seems like it has to be part of the mix.

1264
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: It definitely has its disadvantages, but there are improvements in technology,

1265
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: and a question is whether we can bring on a

1266
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: new generation of new clear power plants fast enough to

1267
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: solve these problems which are happening already today. It's already

1268
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: sort of too late to be attacking these questions, and

1269
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: so we need today's solutions to yesterday's problems rather than

1270
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: tomorrow's ideas. So I think to wrap up, what we

1271
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: know is that the future of energy production will be

1272
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: mostly renewables. We're gonnaed like twenty percent to come from

1273
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: something else, and so rather than burning coal, it seems

1274
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: like nuclear power would be a better option, unless, of course,

1275
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 1: there's dramatic innovation in battery technology or in carbon capture

1276
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: or in one of these industries. So probably be a

1277
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: big mix of all of these things, but I think

1278
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: without some dramatic change in the landscape, nuclear power is

1279
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 1: going to be part of it. I agree, it's at

1280
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: least something we should be talking about a lot more

1281
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: than we're talking about right now. Thanks everybody for joining

1282
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: us in that deep dive into the risks and potential

1283
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: benefits of nuclear power. And thanks Kelly for joining us today.

1284
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun,

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Speaker 1: or as much fun as you can have when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about global catastrophes. Hey, we got some Simpsons references

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Speaker 1: in there, all right. Thanks everyone, tune in next time.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of I Heart Radio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcast for my heart Radio, visit the I heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows. Yeah,