Speaker 1: Crime. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Real Time Crime.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Leo Lamar. My little social salutes we've
Speaker 1: got with us today. Our friend. The fact that I
Speaker 1: said friend and he's already laughing, I take it back.
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because you called him your little social sluths.
Speaker 1: Social it was. It was a very cruel and deville.
Speaker 1: Thank you. That's that is my dream role to play, Corrella.
Speaker 1: I think I've already got in the bag. But anyway,
Speaker 1: you know, guys, it's just a hundred one single men. Oh,
Speaker 1: we just live action this thing. This is actually the
Speaker 1: most accurate thing that I've ever heard. So um a
Speaker 1: little update. Still in Europe. I'm a can. I'm in
Speaker 1: Can right now. I am I ever coming home Can.
Speaker 1: By the way, just see you guys know that is
Speaker 1: a that is a city that she doesn't mean she's
Speaker 1: in the can, like coming to you from the bathroom.
Speaker 1: Would that be funny? Hey guys, so I'm actually in jail.
Speaker 1: If you could come and if everyone could just put
Speaker 1: together like a little go fund me to get me
Speaker 1: out the bail? Is that pretty high? What did I do?
Speaker 1: It's a long story, but mostly just a drunk tank okay, no,
Speaker 1: I'm so I'm in can France's great. I'm here for
Speaker 1: the film festival anyway, Um, Dmitri you you just Dmitri
Speaker 1: heavy side without heavy sighing. It's it's a it's a
Speaker 1: dark time here right now. And you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: glad that you're not here to you know, not that
Speaker 1: you're not feeling it over there. But after everything what happened,
Speaker 1: and we'll started in Buffalo, you know, last week, but
Speaker 1: in Texas at the elementary school, it's it's a it's
Speaker 1: a difficult time to um, to be here and to
Speaker 1: be jovial and too and to try and to try
Speaker 1: and go on, especially as a parent, it's a difficult
Speaker 1: time to deal with this stuff. And and it's also
Speaker 1: and immediately what we do best here in this kind
Speaker 1: as we politicize everything where people do and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden it's this and it's that, and people come
Speaker 1: on and they have their statements and and it's it's
Speaker 1: maddening because you want people for a moment, you know,
Speaker 1: not not glory. I'm so definitely not glorifying these times.
Speaker 1: But after eleven there was a little bit of a
Speaker 1: bond here when the pandemic. It's a little bit of
Speaker 1: a bond here, The bond of people coming together seems
Speaker 1: to it's it's growing shorter and shorter, so there's not
Speaker 1: even that recovery period where we all feel like we're
Speaker 1: morning together, and that makes it more difficult. I am
Speaker 1: so deeply disturbed by everything. All the notifications I've gotten
Speaker 1: have been about gun violence, and it's so deeply upsetting,
Speaker 1: and I just think that our country is changing in
Speaker 1: a way that feels I mean, I've said this before,
Speaker 1: I'll say it again. You know, l A is pretty
Speaker 1: much as liberal as you can get besides New York
Speaker 1: in America. And there used to be signs on the
Speaker 1: highway that would say gun control now or band guns,
Speaker 1: and now it's like story or gun safely, and that's troubling.
Speaker 1: That just really shows you the sign of the times.
Speaker 1: So anyway, obviously what we will be speaking about right now,
Speaker 1: we'll just do one hot topic today, which is the
Speaker 1: Texas school shooting, and then we're gonna chat with Courtney
Speaker 1: Armstrong and Stephanie Lydecker, who are incredible hosts of the
Speaker 1: Pike Town massacre, and Dmitri not to um you know
Speaker 1: as much as I love talking about my love life.
Speaker 1: I think we can just hop right to this today
Speaker 1: unless you unless you feel it's necessary to get an update.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I'm always up for an update, but it
Speaker 1: maybe it seems a little uh appropriate today. Yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: save it for the next time. Just stay with this
Speaker 1: guy until next time, so we can still talk about
Speaker 1: it before we get it. Obviously, we're gonna do the
Speaker 1: one hot topic about Texas, the elementary school, and it
Speaker 1: is clearly, as I'm sure you know, a very sent
Speaker 1: st of topics. So we're letting you know that we
Speaker 1: will be talking about it, and just to prepare you
Speaker 1: that you know, it's it's never a comfortable thing to
Speaker 1: talk about, but that's that's where we're headed right now.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Dmitri. So everyone has heard about this story,
Speaker 1: and if you haven't yet, just turn on your TV.
Speaker 1: This is happening right now. But okay, UM, this is
Speaker 1: a really tragic story, you guys. This is the Texas
Speaker 1: school shooting that's all happening in real time. Multiple people
Speaker 1: are dead, including several children, after an active shooter incident
Speaker 1: at rob Elementary School in Uvaldi, Texas. Law enforcement sources
Speaker 1: has confirmed all of this and obviously we've seen it
Speaker 1: all over the news, and I think there are nineteen
Speaker 1: children dead now unless there was a new update, I
Speaker 1: don't know if anyone has that information to me treat
Speaker 1: as far as I knew, Yeah, that's the last I
Speaker 1: had heard. This is a second deadliest school shooting in
Speaker 1: American history, and two patients were transferred to Seeing Antonio
Speaker 1: for treatment, while third was pending transfer the hospital set
Speaker 1: a forty five year old who was also hospitalized after
Speaker 1: getting grazed by a bullet um. We don't know the
Speaker 1: status on their life at the moment. And I just
Speaker 1: apparently this young man also shot his grandmother before going
Speaker 1: to the elementary school and shot these children and teachers.
Speaker 1: My heart is broken. I mean, it's like, how many
Speaker 1: times does need to happen for anything to change? It's
Speaker 1: already times. I'm I'm baffled. I just don't get it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, even if even if they armed teachers,
Speaker 1: right the whole life good guy with a gun versus
Speaker 1: the bad guy with the gun thing, It's like, then
Speaker 1: you have to train teachers and guns. Then it's like
Speaker 1: what happens if the student gets access to the guns somehow?
Speaker 1: And how about it's like, having more guns doesn't ever
Speaker 1: feel like the answer. It doesn't. And then that's a
Speaker 1: responsibility to put on the teachers that that that's not
Speaker 1: what their job is. And by the way, that should
Speaker 1: not be an excuse. That should not be like, well,
Speaker 1: we can't do that because these same lawmakers that are
Speaker 1: like you know that are saying, oh, we should arm teachers.
Speaker 1: They're the ones that if you look at their bios
Speaker 1: on social media, right, they're the ones that are posting, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, no one's taken our second amendum went away
Speaker 1: from us. No one's gonna take our guns. Hey, ammunition
Speaker 1: and guns are selling out faster than like they're bragging
Speaker 1: about it, So don't tell me that it's not a
Speaker 1: great I know what they say. They say that the
Speaker 1: people that have these guns that they're not but you're
Speaker 1: glorifying it, right, and you're making a big deal out
Speaker 1: of it. So then that's to eighteen year olds now
Speaker 1: that have gotten weapons that they shouldn't have had because
Speaker 1: they don't have to pass any kind of checks, or
Speaker 1: they get im illegally or whatever. It is. The point
Speaker 1: is you have to make it harder. Okay, it's not
Speaker 1: just armed teachers. No, make it harder. First. And here's
Speaker 1: the other thing. So, just to update, it's nineteen children
Speaker 1: and two adults. That's twenty one people. My other thought is,
Speaker 1: so the shooter is dead mhm, and the police shot him.
Speaker 1: I'm always I'm just like, what is the motive? What?
Speaker 1: What's what's going on? How is this happening? And also
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, so are we supposed to just amp up?
Speaker 1: Are we supposed to have a professional level of security
Speaker 1: and metal detectors and and and like defencive gates around
Speaker 1: elementary schools and middle schools and high schools and movie
Speaker 1: theaters and malls and like, at what point is this?
Speaker 1: It's like, how do we prevent these sorts of issues?
Speaker 1: How do we prevent gun violence? I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: how much security is secure enough? I don't get it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: during the pandemic, you know, h everyone kind of got
Speaker 1: into the thing of good kids back in schools. You know,
Speaker 1: their mental health isn't that well? You know what, there's
Speaker 1: something about mental health about going to school and not
Speaker 1: no no, if you're coming home or if someone's gonna
Speaker 1: walk in and excuse me and and and shoot you
Speaker 1: and your classmates. I'm struggling with the story. Obviously as
Speaker 1: a parent I have this is difficult for me. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know it's like I saw someone I can't
Speaker 1: let this go. I saw someone on the news yesterday
Speaker 1: and they you know, everyone comes up with their little
Speaker 1: spin of their other topics, and someone was like, you know,
Speaker 1: this is also this is about you know, kids being
Speaker 1: afraid to to um to. What's the I forget what
Speaker 1: the word was, but he's basically like tattle. You know kids,
Speaker 1: you know, if you see something you have to say something. Hey,
Speaker 1: hey dude, go for yourself. It's like, no, that's that's
Speaker 1: not where you're gonna where you're gonna direct this blame
Speaker 1: right now? Okay, because number one, this was an eighteen
Speaker 1: year old kid and these were elementary school students, so
Speaker 1: what ten, eleven and younger? Right, So it's not like
Speaker 1: this was a classmate that brought up knife to school
Speaker 1: and no one said anything. So get your little propaganda
Speaker 1: bullshit off the news right now. Okay, there's certain things
Speaker 1: that we have to focus on, and you blaming children
Speaker 1: who are some of them no longer with us is
Speaker 1: not the angle that anybody needs. And there's there's no
Speaker 1: one that should be given a guy like that a microphone.
Speaker 1: The children should never be blamed. No, this is us,
Speaker 1: this is adults, This is adults. This is I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of speechless. And I know you're a
Speaker 1: parent so that this is hitting you in a way
Speaker 1: that I can't even imagine, But I I just I
Speaker 1: just don't understand. This is just illogical to me. How
Speaker 1: we don't have any sort of banning of guns, gun
Speaker 1: control in a me in full way, And why is
Speaker 1: it taking so long? It just doesn't make it's nonsensical.
Speaker 1: And I think that is the end of the story.
Speaker 1: You know, I am how many more times, how many
Speaker 1: more times? I just don't like. This is the definition
Speaker 1: of an insanity. I brought one, it is, and and
Speaker 1: people normalizing it or being like, well, just armed teachers,
Speaker 1: that's the only way to go. It's not the only
Speaker 1: way to go. And I have brought one of my
Speaker 1: kids this morning to uh she had an overnight today,
Speaker 1: which is you know, is for me as a parent,
Speaker 1: it's a difficult time to grasp that. But obviously you
Speaker 1: have to do what you have to do. But as
Speaker 1: she's getting ready to get on the bus. She was
Speaker 1: a little nervous in general, and not because we had
Speaker 1: talked about this, but she was a nervous. She's like, Dad,
Speaker 1: let's take a selfie. And in my head, I'm like,
Speaker 1: like does she know? Or two? I have all this
Speaker 1: swirling around my head right now, and I'm like, so
Speaker 1: you get that moment where like, let's take a selfie
Speaker 1: and then you can't but help it nowadays and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, like you look at this stuff. And there
Speaker 1: were parents in Texas that maybe took a selfie before
Speaker 1: school or maybe said I love you, or maybe said
Speaker 1: see you later or whatever, and that was the last
Speaker 1: time they got to do that with their children. And
Speaker 1: that is not something that I think about stuff like
Speaker 1: that anyway. Like that's just the way that I'm wired.
Speaker 1: I think about. I value life, right, I had some
Speaker 1: some instances where I lost some family members when I
Speaker 1: was young, and so I value my everyday life. But
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be a normal thing for people to think about.
Speaker 1: I'm going to the store. I'm going to think, yes,
Speaker 1: always tell somebody that you love them, but it should
Speaker 1: not be is this the last time I'm gonna see somebody?
Speaker 1: Because I'm going to the store or because they're going
Speaker 1: to in school. Sorry, no, I think this is all
Speaker 1: exactly how everyone is feeling, and you're just vocalizing it.
Speaker 1: And um, I'm I I really feel at a loss
Speaker 1: of words for this story. And I'm grateful that you
Speaker 1: have such a strong perspective on it, and I'm also
Speaker 1: sorry that you have to have such a strong perspective
Speaker 1: on it. I mean, this is completely I can't imagine
Speaker 1: having children at that school. And and the other thing
Speaker 1: is that the children who live will never be the
Speaker 1: same either. So all the survivors are going to have
Speaker 1: survivors guilt, and they're going to be afraid of being
Speaker 1: indoors and buildings that they would normally deem safe. And
Speaker 1: you know that's this is a tragedy that doesn't just
Speaker 1: end here. Yeah, And it's like and sadly you can
Speaker 1: rattle off the other people the other where those other
Speaker 1: students and people are from Columbine, Newtown, Parkland, Like, there's
Speaker 1: so many schools that you can rattle off in your head,
Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't know what to do anymore.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is a little bit of
Speaker 1: a touchy hot topic for both of us. And we're
Speaker 1: gonna just quickly cut to break and have a breather,
Speaker 1: and I suggest you all have a sip water, take
Speaker 1: a break, come back to podcast, and we've got some
Speaker 1: great guests coming up. We love you very much and
Speaker 1: our heart goes out to everyone who's affected in this tragedy.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Yeah, oh my gosh, it's great
Speaker 1: to have you both. Thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: here with us time today. Thank you. We are big,
Speaker 1: huge fans Dark Day though I guess to be here
Speaker 1: just based on what's happening in the world today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: too much real time crime. I think the unfortunate thing
Speaker 1: about our podcast is that every time we think we're
Speaker 1: just gonna do some you know, old cases and maybe
Speaker 1: a couple of of of hilarious, funny little crimes here
Speaker 1: and there, it's always like, oh no, wait, another huge
Speaker 1: tragedy just happened, which is also the point of this podcast.
Speaker 1: Exactly no, exactly know. We talked at that a lot,
Speaker 1: not to jump in about you know, talking about crimes,
Speaker 1: is that perpetuate crimes or you know, what is the
Speaker 1: cross section? And personally, I think it's really important to
Speaker 1: talk about it. So what you guys, do I think
Speaker 1: is incredibly valuable not to get heady. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I used to think that. I
Speaker 1: used to think, you know, the more we publicize stuff,
Speaker 1: but then I thought, you know what, I think people
Speaker 1: need to talk about stuff otherwise you just keep it
Speaker 1: all inside. And I don't think that talking about the
Speaker 1: crimes is what you know, causes people to commit them.
Speaker 1: I think I think when you give someone that committed
Speaker 1: a crime a reality show or something like that, then yes,
Speaker 1: maybe we're crossing the line there. But I think he's
Speaker 1: talking about the tender Swinler again. I am. That's still irritating.
Speaker 1: I just took people's money and everybody, and then everybody's like,
Speaker 1: hold on, let's give this guy a show. It's made
Speaker 1: off have a show yet. I think you'd have a
Speaker 1: great reality show up next. It's anyway, I won't, I
Speaker 1: won't hijack, but you know, no, no, please hijack away.
Speaker 1: That's the whole point of this thing is hijack. Yeah, literally,
Speaker 1: that's actually the alternate name for this podcast. Well, it's
Speaker 1: real time hijack. As you hijack please please, Stephanie. The
Speaker 1: well we're gonna do is we're gonna keep interrupting you,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna make the hijack difficult for you. No
Speaker 1: one just sits there and I agrees to be hijacks.
Speaker 1: Go ahead. Now that's part of the game, as we
Speaker 1: all continually hijack each other. So I'm sorry, but this
Speaker 1: is not going to be fun for anyone. We get it, No,
Speaker 1: we really get it. But like to back up to
Speaker 1: what you were just saying about talking about crimes, I
Speaker 1: think it's the only way we know how to keep
Speaker 1: ourselves safe is sort of knowing that these hideous things
Speaker 1: do in facts happen, and how we can, you know,
Speaker 1: spot the boogeyman in the room and hopefully prevent these
Speaker 1: things from happening again. So that's it from my soapbox. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I agree, I think um even on social media. I'm
Speaker 1: in life, I'm sarcasm, but um, Somewhere along the way
Speaker 1: I used to keep all stuff inside, and somewhere along
Speaker 1: the way I realized, you know what, if I have
Speaker 1: a thought kind of like, I'll write it out. And
Speaker 1: because I realized that sometimes other people need to hear
Speaker 1: it or need to or think, hey, I didn't think
Speaker 1: of it that where or it's nice to know that
Speaker 1: someone else is having these feelings too, or so I
Speaker 1: think it's important. Well, it's also nice to have an
Speaker 1: alternative perspective on an event that you might not have
Speaker 1: heard before and gather more insight and to change your
Speaker 1: own perspective. Maybe not to mention. If you meet somebody
Speaker 1: who has been the victim of a crime or has
Speaker 1: survived something as hideous as some of the crimes that
Speaker 1: we talk about, and they have the wherewithal and the
Speaker 1: ability to come and sit down for an interview and
Speaker 1: push on with their lives and share their story. I
Speaker 1: find it very inspiring. It really puts things into perspective
Speaker 1: in terms of what I was whining about yesterday. You know,
Speaker 1: you wake up to what we've seen today, this level
Speaker 1: of tragedy, and it's mind blowing, and it just kind
Speaker 1: of reminds us all to you know, get grateful and
Speaker 1: you know, be aware. We've got the incredible, beautiful, talented
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Lye Decker on the podcast today.
Speaker 1: We are so grateful to have you both here, and
Speaker 1: they're the hosts of the Pike Town Massacre podcast and
Speaker 1: it's available on all Apple podcasts. They're already far into
Speaker 1: their episodes. So if you're someone who likes to binge,
Speaker 1: o ho, I have a treat for you. Plan a
Speaker 1: road trip baby. So you both are unscripted TV producers
Speaker 1: and now you host this podcast about the terrifying Pike
Speaker 1: Town massacre along with co host Jeff Shane, who's not here.
Speaker 1: That's fine, We want to ask questions. But did you
Speaker 1: kill him? It sounds like sometimes sometimes Jeff is a
Speaker 1: good nickname for him. Ha ha. So the show tells
Speaker 1: the story of the horrific family annihilation. On the night
Speaker 1: of a and rural pike Town, Ohio, eight members of
Speaker 1: the road and family were all shot to death. Season
Speaker 1: two of the Pike Town Massacre just began and it
Speaker 1: starts with a band all puns intended. One of the
Speaker 1: four suspects in the massacre, who has been pleading his
Speaker 1: innocence for years, changed his mind and entered a guilty plea.
Speaker 1: That would be like Amber heard turning around in court
Speaker 1: right now and just being like, you know what I did?
Speaker 1: Ship the bed the dog? She done that? Yes, she has?
Speaker 1: Is that there we go? Depends who you ask. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: if we asked Johnny. So two years later in their neighbors,
Speaker 1: the Wagoners were arrested and charged with committing the largest
Speaker 1: massacre in Ohio's history. Shocked by the arrest, the ones
Speaker 1: close knit and religious community remains divided and unable to cope. Ladies,
Speaker 1: Before we go more into the nitty gritty, is there
Speaker 1: anything you want to share about the pod or your
Speaker 1: experience or if you want to just um talk about
Speaker 1: Jeff since he's not here. Um, Jeff, you this in spirit,
Speaker 1: and we wish you were in person as well, um,
Speaker 1: because as Stephanie said, he has a real I know
Speaker 1: you said in person, but it sounded like you said,
Speaker 1: I wish he was in prison as well. Uh. Sometimes
Speaker 1: one courtney, Um, but yeah, I'll say what what brought
Speaker 1: part of what brought us to to this story and
Speaker 1: staying on the story for so long is actually going
Speaker 1: and visiting Piked in which Stephanie, Jeff and I all
Speaker 1: went to Piked in Ohio, UM several times and we
Speaker 1: got to knock on doors and speak to people who
Speaker 1: were integral to all sides and and just to find
Speaker 1: out kind of in wasn't in real time exactly when
Speaker 1: the tragedy happened, but it was in tragedy, lingers and
Speaker 1: the effects. You know, they lad there forever, um, and
Speaker 1: so I think that's part of what's kept us is
Speaker 1: really the people who were involved. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: set up so the for those of you that don't know,
Speaker 1: there were a family of eight, right, were massacred execution
Speaker 1: style in this town, in different homes, all on the
Speaker 1: same day, all on the same day. And initially reports
Speaker 1: said that it was in fact execution style, and they
Speaker 1: thought it was this assassin who came in in the
Speaker 1: night and went to four different locations. And we now
Speaker 1: know that it was far from an execution. It was
Speaker 1: a straight massacre. It was an overkill. Four members of
Speaker 1: the same you know, eight members of the same family,
Speaker 1: ranging in age as young as sixteen years old. We're
Speaker 1: all murdered. Some of them were mothers holding their babies.
Speaker 1: And to find out two years later, the babies, thankfully
Speaker 1: we're all left alive at the scene. Um tragic as
Speaker 1: even that sounds for the life to come. But find
Speaker 1: out two years later that a local, very prominent family
Speaker 1: who was very close to the victims were in fact
Speaker 1: the killers. And um, now we know that as fact,
Speaker 1: as one of them has pled and you're talking about
Speaker 1: a mother, a father, and two sons, and the four
Speaker 1: of them we now know, as a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: plotted and planned for months and months to essentially eradicate
Speaker 1: an entire bloodline and did so pretty successfully and almost
Speaker 1: got away with it. And you know, the town is
Speaker 1: a small town, like so many that we are all
Speaker 1: from myself included, and imagine knowing either somebody on the
Speaker 1: victim side or someone on the accuse side. It was
Speaker 1: a small town that was rocked. It's considered the largest
Speaker 1: crime investigation in Ohio's history. So you don't go anywhere there,
Speaker 1: whether you're at the Walmart or at the you know,
Speaker 1: the local little shop. Who is not affected they went
Speaker 1: to high school with the accused, or they know into
Speaker 1: a well one of the victims, so and and not
Speaker 1: to mention. So this was in two thousand sixteen, right,
Speaker 1: And then this family that you're referring to, which I
Speaker 1: can't wrap my head around. You know some parents that
Speaker 1: then commit murders with their kids like together, that's there's
Speaker 1: obviously yes, no, I can't. But so then it was
Speaker 1: two years right until they were arrested. So you're talking
Speaker 1: about a close knit community and amongst this, that family
Speaker 1: was just there for two years acting like, wow, I
Speaker 1: can't believe this happened. So that's enough to re rattle you, right,
Speaker 1: the whole communities rattled in two thousand sixteen. Then two
Speaker 1: years later they found out that these people that they
Speaker 1: were probably opening up to about this were the ones
Speaker 1: that did it. And so then you shook again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the the Wagner family, who again is now all
Speaker 1: the four of them are in prison. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: they took to social media and as Stephanie said, they
Speaker 1: were connected to the Rodents, the victims family, and so
Speaker 1: they were saying in interviews and on their own posts,
Speaker 1: you know, we need to find the monsters who did this,
Speaker 1: and we have such love for the Rodents, and it's
Speaker 1: it's really um diabolical what they were doing, just the
Speaker 1: you know, the level of fraud really they were perpetrating.
Speaker 1: After the fact, not to mention just one other detail
Speaker 1: that kind of stucks with us. You know. Season three
Speaker 1: premieres today, and we have a lot of access to
Speaker 1: the accused families who were under a gag order or
Speaker 1: frankly were petrified and too scared to speak with us
Speaker 1: for good reason, and this looks like a regular family, right,
Speaker 1: So Angela Wagner, who is the accused mother. So there's
Speaker 1: a mother, her husband, Billy Wagner, her eldest son, George Wagner,
Speaker 1: and then a younger son, Jake Wagner. The mom, now
Speaker 1: we know now was plotting it. She was on surveillance
Speaker 1: at Walmart buying the equipment for silencers and the shoes
Speaker 1: that were later found at the crime scene. They had
Speaker 1: murder meetings, sitting around the kitchen table, meeting planning to
Speaker 1: do this. And at the time they lived together. Can
Speaker 1: you imagine this? So they got a car, they got
Speaker 1: into a car allegedly, and then went from one house,
Speaker 1: committed a massacre, got back in a car, went to
Speaker 1: another house, committed a massacre four times, and then went
Speaker 1: home burd and went about life. And that piece that
Speaker 1: is just too much to kind of wrap your brain around,
Speaker 1: because you'd like to think, no, I under saying like
Speaker 1: this is why parents should never live with their adult children.
Speaker 1: Good point. You know, it's like it drives people to
Speaker 1: the point of insanity just having a murder. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: they just decided to plot murders of other people. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is just clearly mental illness, but also you know
Speaker 1: the term murder meeting. I just imagine them sitting around
Speaker 1: the dinner table being like, oh, honey, past the potatoes,
Speaker 1: and who should we kill first. It's like that's out
Speaker 1: of a comedy. It almost doesn't even seem real. They
Speaker 1: seem like fake people. And the fact that when they
Speaker 1: found the bodies, they weren't just shot multiple times, they
Speaker 1: were also bruised, so you know that they were beaten
Speaker 1: before they were shot. So it leads to so many
Speaker 1: questions about the motive. And I think that you know,
Speaker 1: they've said it it's about custody, battle and that sort
Speaker 1: of thing, But what do you think it really is?
Speaker 1: Do you think that's it? This is you have no
Speaker 1: idea the question you just asked. By the way, you're like,
Speaker 1: that's what the whole show was about. Yeah, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna give the I'm gonna give a real short, black
Speaker 1: and white answer, which is not the full scope um
Speaker 1: allegedly because you know, this is all still coming out
Speaker 1: in court. Um. It is custody over a little girl
Speaker 1: who was shared between the youngest son on the killer side,
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner and Hanname Rodin and and they were an
Speaker 1: unmarried couple who had um by all accounts fairly happily
Speaker 1: for years, split custody and they lived the three of
Speaker 1: them as a little unit, part time at one family,
Speaker 1: part time at the other. Uh, their romantic relationship ended.
Speaker 1: And yeah, the thought that it was an absolute obsession
Speaker 1: of getting custody of this little girl by the killer family, well,
Speaker 1: guess what, you don't have custody ever anymore. So nobody
Speaker 1: that's correct. Um So anyway, that that is one simple answer. However, Stephanie, listen,
Speaker 1: Stephanie just took her heels off, exactly, she took her
Speaker 1: hoops out. She's ready to go. We are like, listen,
Speaker 1: this is at one point went from a who done
Speaker 1: it to a wide done it right? So we were
Speaker 1: really looking into the why how could there possibly be
Speaker 1: a killer family who sticks to the same story for years?
Speaker 1: Very difficult? And how could there be a killer mom
Speaker 1: at the helm of this who's really setting her kids
Speaker 1: out for potentially death? Also, they could have all been
Speaker 1: killed in this massacre. So, you know, season three, that
Speaker 1: becomes part of our initial obsession. But I think now
Speaker 1: we're seeing that, you know, this is a really convenient narrative,
Speaker 1: and you know, trials are now on the horizon, so
Speaker 1: much of this will be disclosed. But it seems as
Speaker 1: though custody, in my humble opinion, allegedly is the touch
Speaker 1: point that makes us all categorize it and put it
Speaker 1: in a nice safe box and say, okay, must have
Speaker 1: been over custody. That's that. And now we're seeing that
Speaker 1: there there may have been a much larger plot and play. Um.
Speaker 1: There's been talking about the cartel, and there's been talking
Speaker 1: about more nefarious things happening in the in the greater
Speaker 1: pipes in area. UM, and we have access of really
Speaker 1: some scary information, you know, on our podcast. We have
Speaker 1: to put everything through really a very serious legal lens
Speaker 1: because the trials are upcoming and some of the participants
Speaker 1: are really participating in a way that they haven't before. UM,
Speaker 1: So we can't say anything that hasn't been appropriately vetted.
Speaker 1: But it's pretty the custody thing we now know to
Speaker 1: be where I believe to be a very small piece
Speaker 1: of a very scary puzzle. Well I know, I mean
Speaker 1: that would make sense because like I said, all right,
Speaker 1: well you didn't you thought all this through, that you
Speaker 1: planned you aplotted out this whole thing, but you didn't
Speaker 1: think that this is for custody. And now nobody has
Speaker 1: the kid, right, so so there has to be more
Speaker 1: to it. But the the the psychosis to have family
Speaker 1: planning things, to go shopping at Walmart for your murder weapons,
Speaker 1: and it's insane. And by the way, if you see
Speaker 1: the picture of Angela Wagner, this mom, she just looks
Speaker 1: like a regular person. She looks like anybody we all
Speaker 1: could have grown up next to, you know. Isn't know
Speaker 1: what they always say. They always seems so nice. I mean,
Speaker 1: the prominent family and then and then you people, you
Speaker 1: don't have to be worried about. That's why they've got
Speaker 1: nothing to lose, you know. But they're just they're already
Speaker 1: putting it out there. It's the regular people, you know
Speaker 1: that we're worried about their secrets. Well, so I'm sorry, Dmitri,
Speaker 1: No I hijacked you. No, no, no, no no, it's so.
Speaker 1: But then to go like the way you painted this out, Stephanie,
Speaker 1: is then they went and committed a murder, then went
Speaker 1: to the next house. Never once along that way did
Speaker 1: they have any remorse, like you would think at some
Speaker 1: point when someone goes and they kill someone, they go whay, wow, okay.
Speaker 1: But to do it four times and never shift. How
Speaker 1: does nobody actually have some moment of clarity midway that
Speaker 1: they're just saying, no, let's not do this, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: please no. Now we are hearing um and learning pieces
Speaker 1: of that night that does shape even what we're speaking
Speaker 1: about now. I'm in a pretty profound way, um, in
Speaker 1: a jaw dropping weight. We're on season three right now.
Speaker 1: We also did a documentary about the murders prior to this,
Speaker 1: so it seems impossible that you could speak about one
Speaker 1: story for that long. And just when we think we're like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's a wrap, the whole thing gets all turned around
Speaker 1: and we're more confused, probably this season than ever before
Speaker 1: because as trials now happen. And by the way, this
Speaker 1: Insullary family that was so close knit and they all
Speaker 1: lived together and they can get murdered together in that
Speaker 1: crazy killer mom well, now they're eating each other little
Speaker 1: by little and you know, turning on each other for
Speaker 1: the first time in the tory tales that we're hearing
Speaker 1: about them leading up to this murder spree, essentially in
Speaker 1: the days leaving after and also you know they're getting
Speaker 1: allegedly threats behind bars and are maybe potentially allegedly I
Speaker 1: don't know how many times to say that, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe this is a convenient story to keep them alive
Speaker 1: behind bars because there's a bigger plot and play. But
Speaker 1: no matter how you slice it, you know, three young
Speaker 1: mothers were murdered holding their babies. I mean, what kind
Speaker 1: of a sick o? What can put that plan in place?
Speaker 1: To me? In my had When you say it like that,
Speaker 1: it makes me think because didn't they change their story
Speaker 1: and come forward two years later and decide that now
Speaker 1: they're going to change their plead to being guilty. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe you're right, there is or a bigger
Speaker 1: plot at play because maybe they felt safer behind bars
Speaker 1: than they did an ounce and even weirder at first
Speaker 1: when they were arrested. That's when we got involved to
Speaker 1: do the documentary. We went there immediately once arrests happened,
Speaker 1: and we kind of set out to disprove that a
Speaker 1: killer mom could exist or a killer family, which you
Speaker 1: know there's not many of those, if any, Uh, it's impossible, right,
Speaker 1: And they really did plead their innocence and they were
Speaker 1: pretty convincing. You know. Honestly, I think when we started
Speaker 1: this me of everybody was like, I kind of think
Speaker 1: that they could not have done it. No way, it
Speaker 1: has to be something larger. Um. And now to the
Speaker 1: five year anniversary. Jake Wagner, the youngest son, he's the
Speaker 1: one that pled and basically said, Okay, I did some
Speaker 1: of this killing, and I am going to now testify
Speaker 1: against my mother, my brother, and my father to get
Speaker 1: their death sentences off the table, which is a pretty
Speaker 1: big difference. UM. And now they're all jumping in to
Speaker 1: either spare their lives, some of them really want to
Speaker 1: get free, um. And they all their stories aren't really
Speaker 1: matching up, and they have to, which is you know,
Speaker 1: compelling in and of itself. There's going to be a
Speaker 1: showdown in court where for the first time they're seeing
Speaker 1: each other eye to eye, and you know, the fate
Speaker 1: of all four of them really does lie in the
Speaker 1: limbo is Jake the father of the child of the
Speaker 1: custody correct, he allegedly found God in prison and by
Speaker 1: the way, there's a whole religious element of this too,
Speaker 1: which is fascinating. But apparently behind bars he discovered God
Speaker 1: and was born again and is now you know, purging
Speaker 1: his conscience. I think I can say this, but Court,
Speaker 1: we were at something, we were at crime Time not
Speaker 1: that long ago, and we were speaking about it, and
Speaker 1: you know, the people who were there had really captivating
Speaker 1: interesting questions that we're trying to sort of go through
Speaker 1: on the podcast this season. And somebody had come up
Speaker 1: to us and said, I have access to Jake Wagner
Speaker 1: on a regular basis and he's writing this manifesto behind bars,
Speaker 1: and it kind of gave me chills. I don't know
Speaker 1: what that means. Is a manifesto imply that he has
Speaker 1: more to say and he's going to or he's going
Speaker 1: to leave this manifesto behind and take his life. I'm
Speaker 1: not suggesting that's going to happen, but there's clearly more
Speaker 1: happening behind closed doors, and those doors are about to open.
Speaker 1: The family feels very Ozark to me. It is I think,
Speaker 1: you know, like we like, well, at some point even
Speaker 1: this season especially, I was like, this sounds like too
Speaker 1: much like Ozark? Is is that possible? But we couldn't
Speaker 1: imagine it being any weirder? And it is. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: at the and yes, it said it's very good visual
Speaker 1: to revoke. Now, what was the what was the initial
Speaker 1: thing that led I guess the tipping point that led
Speaker 1: them to be suspects to begin with, right, because clearly
Speaker 1: two years passed, whether they were suspects or not, something
Speaker 1: tipped it where they're like, okay, now they were being accused.
Speaker 1: Go go go, go get an hour. I mean it
Speaker 1: was it was a multitude of things. I mean, they
Speaker 1: the investigation was so broad and vast. I mean there
Speaker 1: were many many national, federal and local agencies just scouring.
Speaker 1: So it was in doing the you know, in doing
Speaker 1: the interviews and talking to people. Listen, it's like if
Speaker 1: any if any wife is dead, it's the husband. You
Speaker 1: look at the significant other, right, And so I think
Speaker 1: part of it just started from Okay, this is a
Speaker 1: very close relationship, and then they start peeling the onion back.
Speaker 1: And these families were connected on that wasn't their only connection.
Speaker 1: That was business. They had generations of the family knew
Speaker 1: each other. So it's unclear exactly if there's thus smoking
Speaker 1: gun aside from evidence that came to be found. But
Speaker 1: in the initial days, it was really just talking to
Speaker 1: people and finding out and by the way, these Wagner's,
Speaker 1: they bought a vehicle for the purpose of murder. We
Speaker 1: know that now as a matter of fact, after the
Speaker 1: murders happened, they were like, it's too painful to be
Speaker 1: here any longer, and they went to Alaska. They basically
Speaker 1: liquidated all of their things, dipped and went to Alaska
Speaker 1: for two years, right in the like dead of night. Okay,
Speaker 1: so but that doesn't make them guilty. Alright, fine, they're
Speaker 1: there for two years. They come back to pike him
Speaker 1: for reasons we still don't entirely know. Allegedly because the
Speaker 1: eldest accused father, his father was dying and they came
Speaker 1: back to care for him, and soon there after they
Speaker 1: were arrested. And one other big quick note that I
Speaker 1: think was also fascinating about this investigation and I promised
Speaker 1: to stop talking, is after the after the murders, this
Speaker 1: was again the largest crime investigation in Ohio's history. It's
Speaker 1: a small town, so you know, everyone's doing their very best.
Speaker 1: There was four different locations and they basically moved all
Speaker 1: of these four homes, which were you know, very nice
Speaker 1: trailer homes. You know that they were able to move
Speaker 1: into a different location in this like trailers, No in
Speaker 1: a hangar if you will to preserve evidence. And look,
Speaker 1: we see this all the time. We were raised in
Speaker 1: the House of Nancy Grace. Preserving a crime scene investigation
Speaker 1: is top priority at all costs, right, not touching anything
Speaker 1: if you're going to move four of these locations where
Speaker 1: these murders happened, there's so much room for error in
Speaker 1: that potentially, and we always believed that that would be
Speaker 1: the cornerstone for the Wagner's defense. Good luck proving that
Speaker 1: that wasn't tampered with or misplaced or or planted. Right,
Speaker 1: you know that that seems like a narrative that everybody
Speaker 1: could probably get on board with. We thought that we're
Speaker 1: gonna be uh free to be honest. In fact, we've
Speaker 1: always been there careful about what we say. We don't
Speaker 1: want to Wagner coming for us. So you know, it
Speaker 1: didn't seem as though they were going to spend their
Speaker 1: lives in prison in my purview, and then Jake spoke up.
Speaker 1: So it's that there's so many tentacles to it at
Speaker 1: this point, but it is a really fascinating investigation also,
Speaker 1: and how that is now unfolding and the Special prosecutor
Speaker 1: who's about to go to trial is a really magnanimous
Speaker 1: female prosecutor who's like not letting it go and is
Speaker 1: a superstud And you know, we're really just bracing ourselves
Speaker 1: for the information that we're we're all kind of dying
Speaker 1: to know, I mean, getting contaminated evidence and tampering with evidence.
Speaker 1: And I mean this is such a common theme. It
Speaker 1: happened in the Amn and Knox case, it happened in
Speaker 1: doomin a ram Z, and it happens so frequently. And
Speaker 1: usually when things are tampered with, these are the biggest
Speaker 1: cases because there are loose ties, so you find people
Speaker 1: really pulling at strings to create storylines that make sense
Speaker 1: because they either want to force a narrative or they
Speaker 1: want to uh, you know, force justice whatever that looks like.
Speaker 1: And I mean there are so many things that you
Speaker 1: were saying that we're just like so thought provoking and
Speaker 1: also terrifying, you know, when you're like, we don't want
Speaker 1: to Wagner after hotly, Yeah do they so they know you,
Speaker 1: but I mean they're behind bars. But there are other
Speaker 1: Wagners out there well, and we know many of the Wagners,
Speaker 1: to be honest, We've interviewed hundreds of people, whether remotely
Speaker 1: or in person, collectively Courtney, Jeff and myself and Chris Graves,
Speaker 1: who also works on this with us. We've entered so
Speaker 1: many people on all sides, and many have choosen to
Speaker 1: be either anonymous or have don't want super diticipate after
Speaker 1: what they've told us. So I feel like and we
Speaker 1: can't say anything unless it's you know, so right, because
Speaker 1: it could potentially have influence. But it is one of
Speaker 1: those things that on the Wagner side, the Acque side,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't believe it either. You know, people
Speaker 1: are heartbroken that their families, who they really believed in
Speaker 1: and we're rallying for and trying to get out of prison,
Speaker 1: are now saying, oops, I might not have been that
Speaker 1: honest from the jump, and I'm so sorry to be
Speaker 1: such a great liar. And how to four people become
Speaker 1: such great liars together? And at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: not to lose sight of these you know, beautiful road
Speaker 1: and family. They were very beloved and lovable and they
Speaker 1: were a fun, loving Gregarius family who had so much
Speaker 1: ahead of them. Um, it's so easy for them to
Speaker 1: get lost in the story and you know, we always
Speaker 1: try not to belabor that, but um, it's one of
Speaker 1: those stories that has really become a piece of our DNA,
Speaker 1: and we think about it and talk about it to nauseam.
Speaker 1: So thank you for living me. So no, I'm gonna so,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask a question. It's a weird question. And
Speaker 1: I tried to let it go in my head, but
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to, so I just have to
Speaker 1: get it out. You said that they bought a car
Speaker 1: to commit the murders. What car did they buy for?
Speaker 1: What's what's your murder vehicle? It's the truck. There's always
Speaker 1: a truck, isn't that what Brian Laundry. Isn't that the
Speaker 1: car that he Well the other thing too, is I
Speaker 1: feel like running is obvious guilt, you know. I mean
Speaker 1: that happened with Brian Laundry. He immediately dipped after he
Speaker 1: murdered Gabby Petito. And then even when they went to Florida,
Speaker 1: I think it was too much for the parents, so
Speaker 1: they went on a trip camping there, like we just
Speaker 1: got to get out of here. You know. It's it's
Speaker 1: constant running from the truth and the pain. And I mean,
Speaker 1: go to Alaska, I mean, that's as far as you
Speaker 1: can get, you know. So their thought on it was that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's speak to that at the time
Speaker 1: was that we're leaving not as a dip to show guilt,
Speaker 1: but rather there's still a three year old daughter at
Speaker 1: the center of this who just lost her entire poor family.
Speaker 1: And you know, the town had had some rumors about
Speaker 1: the Wagner's potentially being involved somebody through a bottle or
Speaker 1: something at Angela Wagner, and they thought, you know what,
Speaker 1: for the sanctity of our beautiful three year old, we
Speaker 1: want to be able to move on healthily with We're
Speaker 1: gonna reevaluate and reimagine our lives in Alaska, far far
Speaker 1: from the police. And by way, did they went to
Speaker 1: church every day and seemingly kind of picked up and
Speaker 1: moved on And maybe had they stayed there? So curious,
Speaker 1: why would you possible? Why would they come back? Yes?
Speaker 1: And by the way, Jake Wagner, the don't get restarted.
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, the youngest son whose daughter and the custody
Speaker 1: was at the center of this. Allegedly, this guy goes
Speaker 1: to Alaska with his family and meets another young girl
Speaker 1: meets another young girl at church who he's basically set
Speaker 1: up with through their pastor. And this young girls like
Speaker 1: she he seemed lovely, can you imagine? And then a
Speaker 1: nice handsome single day they got married. Yeah, they got married. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1: And now she's a big piece of this too. She's
Speaker 1: on the witness list. We have recently heard that the
Speaker 1: special prosecutor had to create a new Social Security number
Speaker 1: for her because she had to be you know, gone
Speaker 1: in the dead of night for her own safety. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, we've been really actively hoping to you know,
Speaker 1: get access to her and hear her voice. But again,
Speaker 1: she was married into a killer family. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: talk about it. I have the worst gut in the
Speaker 1: world when it comes to Truelo. So you know, can
Speaker 1: you imagine this young yeah? You know so? Um yeah.
Speaker 1: The plot pickins, you know where when we do go
Speaker 1: through the Alaska piece of it in in lots of
Speaker 1: detail this season. I mean it makes me think, like,
Speaker 1: is Alaska that bad that it would force you to
Speaker 1: come back and admit guilt to a crime. Many people
Speaker 1: love Alaska, including Jewel you know, a Laska's a beautiful
Speaker 1: place too many, Um, but it seems far away and
Speaker 1: very remote and again forever going to church. One of
Speaker 1: the oldest sons too. This has always haunted me, the
Speaker 1: eldest son, George Wagner of the accused. He has requested
Speaker 1: a Bible in solitary confinement in prison, solitary consignment to
Speaker 1: get ready. I'm starting to think that everyone that goes
Speaker 1: to church isn't always good and doesn't always have the
Speaker 1: best intentions in mind. Where did you get that idea
Speaker 1: from Dmitri? Piece a few things together from different things
Speaker 1: all over the world. Interesting, Well, you know, did they
Speaker 1: have children together? Did not know that? Behaving as like
Speaker 1: a bit of a you know, new stepmother to uh
Speaker 1: the three year old at the time, and you know
Speaker 1: thought she married into this like lovely family, not realizing
Speaker 1: once you get married into this family, it seems like
Speaker 1: the the windows shut in, the doors shut, and you're
Speaker 1: you're stuck in health captive. Really, Mama Waggoners going to
Speaker 1: Walmart at Yeah? And they so just even before all this,
Speaker 1: you know, you had mentioned how they lived together as
Speaker 1: adults and then also with any women. I mean George Wagner,
Speaker 1: the oldest one, he had a wife for a while,
Speaker 1: then she too moved in and when they were splitting
Speaker 1: custody with Hannah Rodin, so it was really complete control.
Speaker 1: So not just mom dad, the two sons. Any woman
Speaker 1: they were seriously involved in was then also brought in
Speaker 1: and kept under surveiled. They were surveiled, they were tracked,
Speaker 1: they were and this goes, this goes back years. It's
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. What what is hers? What do you think
Speaker 1: her issue is the definite level of yeah, it's I
Speaker 1: mean it's insane too, you know, to try and put
Speaker 1: reason to something unreasonable as I we struggle with that.
Speaker 1: So right, you know, what is it? I It's hard
Speaker 1: to know, except there is definitely obsession um protection of
Speaker 1: whether it's the bloodline or what Angela Wagner the mother
Speaker 1: deems as hers, which would be her boys and anyone
Speaker 1: who impacts them. So you met, you got you meet
Speaker 1: one of the Wagner boys, who are lovely by many accounts,
Speaker 1: we might add, we've heard many stories this season seasoningly
Speaker 1: so they were shy and they were loved. They meet
Speaker 1: a nice girl. That nice girl comes into the mix
Speaker 1: um and then as immediately cut off from her family.
Speaker 1: If there's a child involved, they get rid of the
Speaker 1: mom and force custody to be given to Angela Wagner
Speaker 1: at the killer mom, who's really the grandmother now of
Speaker 1: like the said three year old, for example, And then
Speaker 1: she starts making them call her mom, so they you know,
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner kill her mom was in her son's girlfriends
Speaker 1: social media. She was tracking all of them for months
Speaker 1: and months and months. And the one the second the
Speaker 1: eldest son's now ex wife who thankfully survived. Um, and
Speaker 1: this did not happen. It's the youngest. I'm making this
Speaker 1: very confusing. There's two times now that Angela Wagner killer
Speaker 1: Mom has forced custody issues on both of her sons
Speaker 1: loved ones in hopes of getting rid of the women
Speaker 1: and keeping the kids for herself. So the mom, the
Speaker 1: mom is the epicenter of all this, and you think
Speaker 1: she's probably the one that just from the inside the house,
Speaker 1: step the whole family and masterminded all this just to
Speaker 1: keep her little empire. And she's the she's the center
Speaker 1: of everybody. We thought that in episode one, and now
Speaker 1: I think if you asked me today and we're really
Speaker 1: we're still mid stream on season three. UM, I don't
Speaker 1: think that's it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, damn your reality show producers.
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, that's really good, you know, And now I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go binge myself. I'm just I mean, because it
Speaker 1: seems so clear and now it's so unclear. Wow. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you for that. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's so interesting hearing about just obsession. Well, you know
Speaker 1: the old adage, obsession breeds content, and you know, when
Speaker 1: when someone is angry or furious or jealous or any
Speaker 1: of those things, these like crimes of passion, whether they're
Speaker 1: sexual involved or romantic or familial, becomes really intense. And
Speaker 1: to have such an entanglement where the entire family is
Speaker 1: essentially it's like a it's like a baby racket. I mean,
Speaker 1: it is unfathomable. Really. Can you imagine being a girl
Speaker 1: in the in the Alaskan church and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I met this really nice guy and maybe maybe you
Speaker 1: find out someone has something in the past, and then
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, well it was murdering. You're like, oh,
Speaker 1: what happens? So someone fell down hit their head and
Speaker 1: he was kind of blamed for it. No, it's or
Speaker 1: is that he and his whole family allegedly massacred of
Speaker 1: an entire family, Like, holy crap, wait, do you think
Speaker 1: the pastor feels really bad? He's like, oh no, I
Speaker 1: have the worst judge of character. And I set up
Speaker 1: a very nice Christian Alaskan woman with an entire family
Speaker 1: of murderers. You know, like, there's something we got gotta
Speaker 1: talk to that pastor. He's really the problem here. How's
Speaker 1: this sermon? The next Sunday, He's like, I'd like to
Speaker 1: come clean on something I kind of regret. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: He's like, who do I confess my sentence too? Uh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean this is um And you know, we we
Speaker 1: also make a podcast called Crazy and Lovely. You know,
Speaker 1: really every episode kind of does look at that intersection
Speaker 1: between when something starts really loving and seemingly normal on
Speaker 1: its nose and then turns deadly. And unfortunately, those stories
Speaker 1: are seemingly never ending, right and you know we're seeing
Speaker 1: it in the news right now. Um, why why go
Speaker 1: to see therapist, go talk to a family, a friend,
Speaker 1: move something there? There's so many other answers than what
Speaker 1: we talk about every day, which is murder. And I
Speaker 1: don't know that we'll ever fully understand it, right, Courtney
Speaker 1: and I debate this today. She's the cerebral, smart one
Speaker 1: of us and is always saying, why do you ask why?
Speaker 1: Why do you ask? Why you cannot make sense of
Speaker 1: nonsensical people or situations? And I sort of have to
Speaker 1: believe that somewhere we can. And you know, that's kind
Speaker 1: of why I guess we're all on this right now,
Speaker 1: and why crime is something that we're also obsessed with.
Speaker 1: It's you know, we're on a justice journey, right and
Speaker 1: we want to be able to categorize it in our heads.
Speaker 1: And this is just another example of one that's really
Speaker 1: been hard to do. It's that's that's the thing is
Speaker 1: it's something that that we can't wrap our heads around.
Speaker 1: So that's what intrigues you the most, right it scares
Speaker 1: the shit out of you. And I think that's why
Speaker 1: so many people are scared of death, because they don't
Speaker 1: know the end. That's that's an answer that they don't know. Right.
Speaker 1: But when these things happen and you think, okay, well
Speaker 1: let's look into it, and then you want the why
Speaker 1: because it's the only way to make you feel better.
Speaker 1: Because if you don't have the why, then anybody around
Speaker 1: you can be one of these people. Right, So then
Speaker 1: you feel your world dissolves an extremely small and you
Speaker 1: feel and anything can happen. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: scary point. So we need that. Why we need well,
Speaker 1: what was the one thing that really set this off?
Speaker 1: Why did people not see they should have seen? So
Speaker 1: you always want that reason. Yeah, and Stephanie and Courtney.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately we are out of time for today. I feel
Speaker 1: like we could talk to you for hours about this,
Speaker 1: and trust me, we've got questions. Okay, we have questions,
Speaker 1: um and and you really mind me when you were like,
Speaker 1: oh no, it's not at all what you think it was.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna binge, watch binge, watch binge, listen the
Speaker 1: pot to the pod. I have no brain cells laft
Speaker 1: type and in Europe for a month, and I'm very
Speaker 1: excited to listen to your podcast. And is there any
Speaker 1: are there final thoughts you want to leave our listeners with?
Speaker 1: Don't all jump in at once. I thought a hijacker,
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's because
Speaker 1: you already hooked us with something. You're like, I know,
Speaker 1: I got to come up with something that tops in
Speaker 1: the last thing. You're like, we gave you not to
Speaker 1: be hijackie, um court go for it. Um. I have
Speaker 1: plenty to say. UM No. I mean I would say
Speaker 1: if um, you know, for for anyone who listens to
Speaker 1: UM piked In Massacre or Crazy and Love or right here.
Speaker 1: I think one thing that I just put out there
Speaker 1: is to keep in mind that real people are involved
Speaker 1: in all of these. That's really good. Do genuinely go
Speaker 1: out to the victims. And also, you know, one thing
Speaker 1: about the piked In Massacre specifically is we do get
Speaker 1: a lot of uh, we get a lot of information
Speaker 1: from people who tip us off to a lot of
Speaker 1: interesting stuff when we take it very seriously, and we
Speaker 1: really do find interesting pieces of information because whether it's
Speaker 1: a local or a distant family member or a psychic medium.
Speaker 1: You'd be shocked how many listeners have reached out directly
Speaker 1: with information. And it's really made us pivot many times
Speaker 1: where you know, we thought we locked an episode and
Speaker 1: then we get some mail from a listener and it
Speaker 1: completely confuses us again and we go down that rabbit hole,
Speaker 1: which ends up being accurate. So I would just say
Speaker 1: anybody listening, please do reach out and find us. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, we do read and we do take it
Speaker 1: seriously and we um, we try to be mindful of
Speaker 1: just staying out of the way of the story. And um, yeah,
Speaker 1: our hearts go out to the Rodents and the Rodan family.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Courtney and Stephanie. I mean absolutely,
Speaker 1: our hearts go out to the Rodan family. This is
Speaker 1: such a sad tragedy. I mean, this is one of
Speaker 1: the most tragic stories I've heard in a really long time.
Speaker 1: I wish actually that is true, but there are constantly
Speaker 1: new tragedies every day in America and around the world
Speaker 1: at this point. But thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: work and for your beautiful hearts and souls. And you
Speaker 1: guys go listen to the Piketown massacre. I mean, if
Speaker 1: you're not, I am, and I need someone to talk
Speaker 1: to about it. Yeah, everybody's there's three seasons. Check it out.
Speaker 1: And then the trial starts for at least for for
Speaker 1: George the fourth right that starts in August. So maybe
Speaker 1: you guys can come back and when things get underway,
Speaker 1: we can talk more about the about the trial and
Speaker 1: or the verdict. And thank you so much for having
Speaker 1: us in real time crime. Yeah, we're mega fans, so
Speaker 1: keep the fight going and thank you for having us well, Dmitri.
Speaker 1: I think that is the conclusion of this episode of
Speaker 1: I mean just sad after sad after sad, So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go I mean just also just totally bonkers because
Speaker 1: you know, there's going to be a Netflix movie about
Speaker 1: this family, and I hate that I have to think
Speaker 1: that way, but I'm like, no, it's obvious. It's like
Speaker 1: this is too wild and out there and weird, and
Speaker 1: I almost am so fascinated by these bigger stories where
Speaker 1: there's always something larger at play. We're like, wow, where
Speaker 1: did this start to unravel? You know, going from getting
Speaker 1: away with murder to deciding that you want to plead guilty.
Speaker 1: I gotta know everything. I gotta know, like you could
Speaker 1: have gone away with this. We need more information and
Speaker 1: if you have information, you know what to do. Call
Speaker 1: them live at eight six six crime. That's eight six
Speaker 1: six to anyone. Come, it's ani six to anyone Time.
Speaker 1: That's eight six sext two on two seven four or
Speaker 1: six three you guys. Um sorry about that weird whisper,
Speaker 1: Stay safe, we love you, don't commit me crimes can night.
Speaker 1: Oh you can also find us on the internet, you know,
Speaker 1: all the places, Dmitri Pappas on Instagram again like I
Speaker 1: said before, very funny Instagram account, and Leo Lamar with
Speaker 1: two hours at the end on Instagram, Twitter TikTok has
Speaker 1: five hours, and my to dot com. I'll be doing
Speaker 1: some stand up in London, so if you're in town
Speaker 1: next week, dm me. I got a lot of messages
Speaker 1: when I was in London last weekend. I did not
Speaker 1: have time to do stand up because it's there for
Speaker 1: a hot twenty four hours. But after that very hot,
Speaker 1: very hot, I mostly slept a um. But I will
Speaker 1: be back next week. I'll be doing some shows. Message
Speaker 1: me and I can send you the information. Again. We
Speaker 1: love you, I'll stay safe. Good night. It's real soon,
Speaker 1: real soon around the trade. I mean, is it actually
Speaker 1: real time crime or solving anything or is that just
Speaker 1: the thing we say it's a thing we say, got it? Okay?
Speaker 1: See NAXT week for more real time crime, only on
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio