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Speaker 1: Crime. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Real Time Crime.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Leo Lamar. My little social salutes we've

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Speaker 1: got with us today. Our friend. The fact that I

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Speaker 1: said friend and he's already laughing, I take it back.

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Speaker 1: I'm laughing because you called him your little social sluths.

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Speaker 1: Social it was. It was a very cruel and deville.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. That's that is my dream role to play, Corrella.

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Speaker 1: I think I've already got in the bag. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: you know, guys, it's just a hundred one single men. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we just live action this thing. This is actually the

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Speaker 1: most accurate thing that I've ever heard. So um a

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Speaker 1: little update. Still in Europe. I'm a can. I'm in

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Speaker 1: Can right now. I am I ever coming home Can.

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Speaker 1: By the way, just see you guys know that is

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Speaker 1: a that is a city that she doesn't mean she's

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Speaker 1: in the can, like coming to you from the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Would that be funny? Hey guys, so I'm actually in jail.

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Speaker 1: If you could come and if everyone could just put

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Speaker 1: together like a little go fund me to get me

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Speaker 1: out the bail? Is that pretty high? What did I do?

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Speaker 1: It's a long story, but mostly just a drunk tank okay, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm so I'm in can France's great. I'm here for

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Speaker 1: the film festival anyway, Um, Dmitri you you just Dmitri

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Speaker 1: heavy side without heavy sighing. It's it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: dark time here right now. And you know what, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that you're not here to you know, not that

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Speaker 1: you're not feeling it over there. But after everything what happened,

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Speaker 1: and we'll started in Buffalo, you know, last week, but

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Speaker 1: in Texas at the elementary school, it's it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a difficult time to um, to be here and to

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Speaker 1: be jovial and too and to try and to try

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Speaker 1: and go on, especially as a parent, it's a difficult

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Speaker 1: time to deal with this stuff. And and it's also

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Speaker 1: and immediately what we do best here in this kind

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Speaker 1: as we politicize everything where people do and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden it's this and it's that, and people come

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Speaker 1: on and they have their statements and and it's it's

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Speaker 1: maddening because you want people for a moment, you know,

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Speaker 1: not not glory. I'm so definitely not glorifying these times.

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Speaker 1: But after eleven there was a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: bond here when the pandemic. It's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a bond here, The bond of people coming together seems

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Speaker 1: to it's it's growing shorter and shorter, so there's not

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Speaker 1: even that recovery period where we all feel like we're

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Speaker 1: morning together, and that makes it more difficult. I am

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Speaker 1: so deeply disturbed by everything. All the notifications I've gotten

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Speaker 1: have been about gun violence, and it's so deeply upsetting,

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Speaker 1: and I just think that our country is changing in

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Speaker 1: a way that feels I mean, I've said this before,

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Speaker 1: I'll say it again. You know, l A is pretty

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Speaker 1: much as liberal as you can get besides New York

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Speaker 1: in America. And there used to be signs on the

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Speaker 1: highway that would say gun control now or band guns,

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Speaker 1: and now it's like story or gun safely, and that's troubling.

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Speaker 1: That just really shows you the sign of the times.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, obviously what we will be speaking about right now,

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Speaker 1: we'll just do one hot topic today, which is the

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Speaker 1: Texas school shooting, and then we're gonna chat with Courtney

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Speaker 1: Armstrong and Stephanie Lydecker, who are incredible hosts of the

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Speaker 1: Pike Town massacre, and Dmitri not to um you know

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Speaker 1: as much as I love talking about my love life.

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Speaker 1: I think we can just hop right to this today

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Speaker 1: unless you unless you feel it's necessary to get an update.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, I'm always up for an update, but it

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Speaker 1: maybe it seems a little uh appropriate today. Yeah, we'll

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Speaker 1: save it for the next time. Just stay with this

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Speaker 1: guy until next time, so we can still talk about

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Speaker 1: it before we get it. Obviously, we're gonna do the

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Speaker 1: one hot topic about Texas, the elementary school, and it

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Speaker 1: is clearly, as I'm sure you know, a very sent

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Speaker 1: st of topics. So we're letting you know that we

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Speaker 1: will be talking about it, and just to prepare you

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Speaker 1: that you know, it's it's never a comfortable thing to

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Speaker 1: talk about, but that's that's where we're headed right now.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Dmitri. So everyone has heard about this story,

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Speaker 1: and if you haven't yet, just turn on your TV.

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Speaker 1: This is happening right now. But okay, UM, this is

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Speaker 1: a really tragic story, you guys. This is the Texas

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Speaker 1: school shooting that's all happening in real time. Multiple people

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Speaker 1: are dead, including several children, after an active shooter incident

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Speaker 1: at rob Elementary School in Uvaldi, Texas. Law enforcement sources

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Speaker 1: has confirmed all of this and obviously we've seen it

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Speaker 1: all over the news, and I think there are nineteen

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Speaker 1: children dead now unless there was a new update, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if anyone has that information to me treat

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Speaker 1: as far as I knew, Yeah, that's the last I

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Speaker 1: had heard. This is a second deadliest school shooting in

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Speaker 1: American history, and two patients were transferred to Seeing Antonio

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Speaker 1: for treatment, while third was pending transfer the hospital set

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Speaker 1: a forty five year old who was also hospitalized after

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Speaker 1: getting grazed by a bullet um. We don't know the

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Speaker 1: status on their life at the moment. And I just

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Speaker 1: apparently this young man also shot his grandmother before going

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Speaker 1: to the elementary school and shot these children and teachers.

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Speaker 1: My heart is broken. I mean, it's like, how many

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Speaker 1: times does need to happen for anything to change? It's

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Speaker 1: already times. I'm I'm baffled. I just don't get it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, even if even if they armed teachers,

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Speaker 1: right the whole life good guy with a gun versus

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Speaker 1: the bad guy with the gun thing, It's like, then

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Speaker 1: you have to train teachers and guns. Then it's like

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Speaker 1: what happens if the student gets access to the guns somehow?

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Speaker 1: And how about it's like, having more guns doesn't ever

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Speaker 1: feel like the answer. It doesn't. And then that's a

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Speaker 1: responsibility to put on the teachers that that that's not

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Speaker 1: what their job is. And by the way, that should

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Speaker 1: not be an excuse. That should not be like, well,

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Speaker 1: we can't do that because these same lawmakers that are

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Speaker 1: like you know that are saying, oh, we should arm teachers.

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Speaker 1: They're the ones that if you look at their bios

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Speaker 1: on social media, right, they're the ones that are posting, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, no one's taken our second amendum went away

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Speaker 1: from us. No one's gonna take our guns. Hey, ammunition

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Speaker 1: and guns are selling out faster than like they're bragging

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Speaker 1: about it, So don't tell me that it's not a

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Speaker 1: great I know what they say. They say that the

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Speaker 1: people that have these guns that they're not but you're

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Speaker 1: glorifying it, right, and you're making a big deal out

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Speaker 1: of it. So then that's to eighteen year olds now

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Speaker 1: that have gotten weapons that they shouldn't have had because

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Speaker 1: they don't have to pass any kind of checks, or

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Speaker 1: they get im illegally or whatever. It is. The point

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Speaker 1: is you have to make it harder. Okay, it's not

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Speaker 1: just armed teachers. No, make it harder. First. And here's

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Speaker 1: the other thing. So, just to update, it's nineteen children

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Speaker 1: and two adults. That's twenty one people. My other thought is,

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Speaker 1: so the shooter is dead mhm, and the police shot him.

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Speaker 1: I'm always I'm just like, what is the motive? What?

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Speaker 1: What's what's going on? How is this happening? And also

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, so are we supposed to just amp up?

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Speaker 1: Are we supposed to have a professional level of security

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Speaker 1: and metal detectors and and and like defencive gates around

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Speaker 1: elementary schools and middle schools and high schools and movie

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Speaker 1: theaters and malls and like, at what point is this?

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Speaker 1: It's like, how do we prevent these sorts of issues?

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Speaker 1: How do we prevent gun violence? I mean, it's like

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Speaker 1: how much security is secure enough? I don't get it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic, you know, h everyone kind of got

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Speaker 1: into the thing of good kids back in schools. You know,

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Speaker 1: their mental health isn't that well? You know what, there's

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Speaker 1: something about mental health about going to school and not

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Speaker 1: no no, if you're coming home or if someone's gonna

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Speaker 1: walk in and excuse me and and and shoot you

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Speaker 1: and your classmates. I'm struggling with the story. Obviously as

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Speaker 1: a parent I have this is difficult for me. Um.

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Speaker 1: But you know it's like I saw someone I can't

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Speaker 1: let this go. I saw someone on the news yesterday

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Speaker 1: and they you know, everyone comes up with their little

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Speaker 1: spin of their other topics, and someone was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is also this is about you know, kids being

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Speaker 1: afraid to to um to. What's the I forget what

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Speaker 1: the word was, but he's basically like tattle. You know kids,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you see something you have to say something. Hey,

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Speaker 1: hey dude, go for yourself. It's like, no, that's that's

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Speaker 1: not where you're gonna where you're gonna direct this blame

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Speaker 1: right now? Okay, because number one, this was an eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old kid and these were elementary school students, so

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Speaker 1: what ten, eleven and younger? Right, So it's not like

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Speaker 1: this was a classmate that brought up knife to school

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Speaker 1: and no one said anything. So get your little propaganda

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Speaker 1: bullshit off the news right now. Okay, there's certain things

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Speaker 1: that we have to focus on, and you blaming children

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Speaker 1: who are some of them no longer with us is

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Speaker 1: not the angle that anybody needs. And there's there's no

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Speaker 1: one that should be given a guy like that a microphone.

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Speaker 1: The children should never be blamed. No, this is us,

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Speaker 1: this is adults, This is adults. This is I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of speechless. And I know you're a

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Speaker 1: parent so that this is hitting you in a way

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Speaker 1: that I can't even imagine, But I I just I

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Speaker 1: just don't understand. This is just illogical to me. How

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Speaker 1: we don't have any sort of banning of guns, gun

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Speaker 1: control in a me in full way, And why is

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Speaker 1: it taking so long? It just doesn't make it's nonsensical.

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Speaker 1: And I think that is the end of the story.

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Speaker 1: You know, I am how many more times, how many

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Speaker 1: more times? I just don't like. This is the definition

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Speaker 1: of an insanity. I brought one, it is, and and

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Speaker 1: people normalizing it or being like, well, just armed teachers,

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Speaker 1: that's the only way to go. It's not the only

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Speaker 1: way to go. And I have brought one of my

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Speaker 1: kids this morning to uh she had an overnight today,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, is for me as a parent,

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Speaker 1: it's a difficult time to grasp that. But obviously you

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Speaker 1: have to do what you have to do. But as

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Speaker 1: she's getting ready to get on the bus. She was

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Speaker 1: a little nervous in general, and not because we had

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Speaker 1: talked about this, but she was a nervous. She's like, Dad,

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Speaker 1: let's take a selfie. And in my head, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: like does she know? Or two? I have all this

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Speaker 1: swirling around my head right now, and I'm like, so

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Speaker 1: you get that moment where like, let's take a selfie

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Speaker 1: and then you can't but help it nowadays and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you look at this stuff. And there

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Speaker 1: were parents in Texas that maybe took a selfie before

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Speaker 1: school or maybe said I love you, or maybe said

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Speaker 1: see you later or whatever, and that was the last

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Speaker 1: time they got to do that with their children. And

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Speaker 1: that is not something that I think about stuff like

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Speaker 1: that anyway. Like that's just the way that I'm wired.

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Speaker 1: I think about. I value life, right, I had some

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Speaker 1: some instances where I lost some family members when I

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Speaker 1: was young, and so I value my everyday life. But

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Speaker 1: that shouldn't be a normal thing for people to think about.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to the store. I'm going to think, yes,

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Speaker 1: always tell somebody that you love them, but it should

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Speaker 1: not be is this the last time I'm gonna see somebody?

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Speaker 1: Because I'm going to the store or because they're going

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Speaker 1: to in school. Sorry, no, I think this is all

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Speaker 1: exactly how everyone is feeling, and you're just vocalizing it.

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Speaker 1: And um, I'm I I really feel at a loss

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Speaker 1: of words for this story. And I'm grateful that you

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Speaker 1: have such a strong perspective on it, and I'm also

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Speaker 1: sorry that you have to have such a strong perspective

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Speaker 1: on it. I mean, this is completely I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: having children at that school. And and the other thing

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Speaker 1: is that the children who live will never be the

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Speaker 1: same either. So all the survivors are going to have

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Speaker 1: survivors guilt, and they're going to be afraid of being

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Speaker 1: indoors and buildings that they would normally deem safe. And

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Speaker 1: you know that's this is a tragedy that doesn't just

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Speaker 1: end here. Yeah, And it's like and sadly you can

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Speaker 1: rattle off the other people the other where those other

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Speaker 1: students and people are from Columbine, Newtown, Parkland, Like, there's

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Speaker 1: so many schools that you can rattle off in your head,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't know what to do anymore.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a touchy hot topic for both of us. And we're

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Speaker 1: gonna just quickly cut to break and have a breather,

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Speaker 1: and I suggest you all have a sip water, take

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Speaker 1: a break, come back to podcast, and we've got some

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Speaker 1: great guests coming up. We love you very much and

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Speaker 1: our heart goes out to everyone who's affected in this tragedy.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Yeah, oh my gosh, it's great

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Speaker 1: to have you both. Thank you so much for being

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Speaker 1: here with us time today. Thank you. We are big,

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Speaker 1: huge fans Dark Day though I guess to be here

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Speaker 1: just based on what's happening in the world today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: too much real time crime. I think the unfortunate thing

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Speaker 1: about our podcast is that every time we think we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna do some you know, old cases and maybe

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Speaker 1: a couple of of of hilarious, funny little crimes here

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Speaker 1: and there, it's always like, oh no, wait, another huge

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Speaker 1: tragedy just happened, which is also the point of this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Exactly no, exactly know. We talked at that a lot,

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Speaker 1: not to jump in about you know, talking about crimes,

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Speaker 1: is that perpetuate crimes or you know, what is the

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Speaker 1: cross section? And personally, I think it's really important to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. So what you guys, do I think

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Speaker 1: is incredibly valuable not to get heady. Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, I used to think that. I

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Speaker 1: used to think, you know, the more we publicize stuff,

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Speaker 1: but then I thought, you know what, I think people

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Speaker 1: need to talk about stuff otherwise you just keep it

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Speaker 1: all inside. And I don't think that talking about the

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Speaker 1: crimes is what you know, causes people to commit them.

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Speaker 1: I think I think when you give someone that committed

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Speaker 1: a crime a reality show or something like that, then yes,

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Speaker 1: maybe we're crossing the line there. But I think he's

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Speaker 1: talking about the tender Swinler again. I am. That's still irritating.

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Speaker 1: I just took people's money and everybody, and then everybody's like,

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Speaker 1: hold on, let's give this guy a show. It's made

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Speaker 1: off have a show yet. I think you'd have a

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Speaker 1: great reality show up next. It's anyway, I won't, I

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Speaker 1: won't hijack, but you know, no, no, please hijack away.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole point of this thing is hijack. Yeah, literally,

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Speaker 1: that's actually the alternate name for this podcast. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: real time hijack. As you hijack please please, Stephanie. The

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Speaker 1: well we're gonna do is we're gonna keep interrupting you,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna make the hijack difficult for you. No

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Speaker 1: one just sits there and I agrees to be hijacks.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead. Now that's part of the game, as we

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Speaker 1: all continually hijack each other. So I'm sorry, but this

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Speaker 1: is not going to be fun for anyone. We get it, No,

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Speaker 1: we really get it. But like to back up to

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Speaker 1: what you were just saying about talking about crimes, I

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Speaker 1: think it's the only way we know how to keep

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Speaker 1: ourselves safe is sort of knowing that these hideous things

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Speaker 1: do in facts happen, and how we can, you know,

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Speaker 1: spot the boogeyman in the room and hopefully prevent these

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Speaker 1: things from happening again. So that's it from my soapbox. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I agree, I think um even on social media. I'm

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Speaker 1: in life, I'm sarcasm, but um, Somewhere along the way

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Speaker 1: I used to keep all stuff inside, and somewhere along

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Speaker 1: the way I realized, you know what, if I have

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Speaker 1: a thought kind of like, I'll write it out. And

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Speaker 1: because I realized that sometimes other people need to hear

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Speaker 1: it or need to or think, hey, I didn't think

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Speaker 1: of it that where or it's nice to know that

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Speaker 1: someone else is having these feelings too, or so I

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Speaker 1: think it's important. Well, it's also nice to have an

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Speaker 1: alternative perspective on an event that you might not have

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Speaker 1: heard before and gather more insight and to change your

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Speaker 1: own perspective. Maybe not to mention. If you meet somebody

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Speaker 1: who has been the victim of a crime or has

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Speaker 1: survived something as hideous as some of the crimes that

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Speaker 1: we talk about, and they have the wherewithal and the

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Speaker 1: ability to come and sit down for an interview and

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Speaker 1: push on with their lives and share their story. I

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Speaker 1: find it very inspiring. It really puts things into perspective

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Speaker 1: in terms of what I was whining about yesterday. You know,

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Speaker 1: you wake up to what we've seen today, this level

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Speaker 1: of tragedy, and it's mind blowing, and it just kind

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Speaker 1: of reminds us all to you know, get grateful and

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Speaker 1: you know, be aware. We've got the incredible, beautiful, talented

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Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Lye Decker on the podcast today.

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Speaker 1: We are so grateful to have you both here, and

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Speaker 1: they're the hosts of the Pike Town Massacre podcast and

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Speaker 1: it's available on all Apple podcasts. They're already far into

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Speaker 1: their episodes. So if you're someone who likes to binge,

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Speaker 1: o ho, I have a treat for you. Plan a

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Speaker 1: road trip baby. So you both are unscripted TV producers

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Speaker 1: and now you host this podcast about the terrifying Pike

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Speaker 1: Town massacre along with co host Jeff Shane, who's not here.

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Speaker 1: That's fine, We want to ask questions. But did you

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Speaker 1: kill him? It sounds like sometimes sometimes Jeff is a

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Speaker 1: good nickname for him. Ha ha. So the show tells

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Speaker 1: the story of the horrific family annihilation. On the night

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Speaker 1: of a and rural pike Town, Ohio, eight members of

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Speaker 1: the road and family were all shot to death. Season

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Speaker 1: two of the Pike Town Massacre just began and it

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Speaker 1: starts with a band all puns intended. One of the

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Speaker 1: four suspects in the massacre, who has been pleading his

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Speaker 1: innocence for years, changed his mind and entered a guilty plea.

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Speaker 1: That would be like Amber heard turning around in court

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Speaker 1: right now and just being like, you know what I did?

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Speaker 1: Ship the bed the dog? She done that? Yes, she has?

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Speaker 1: Is that there we go? Depends who you ask. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: if we asked Johnny. So two years later in their neighbors,

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Speaker 1: the Wagoners were arrested and charged with committing the largest

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Speaker 1: massacre in Ohio's history. Shocked by the arrest, the ones

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Speaker 1: close knit and religious community remains divided and unable to cope. Ladies,

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Speaker 1: Before we go more into the nitty gritty, is there

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Speaker 1: anything you want to share about the pod or your

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Speaker 1: experience or if you want to just um talk about

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Speaker 1: Jeff since he's not here. Um, Jeff, you this in spirit,

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Speaker 1: and we wish you were in person as well, um,

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Speaker 1: because as Stephanie said, he has a real I know

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Speaker 1: you said in person, but it sounded like you said,

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Speaker 1: I wish he was in prison as well. Uh. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: one courtney, Um, but yeah, I'll say what what brought

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Speaker 1: part of what brought us to to this story and

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Speaker 1: staying on the story for so long is actually going

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Speaker 1: and visiting Piked in which Stephanie, Jeff and I all

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Speaker 1: went to Piked in Ohio, UM several times and we

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Speaker 1: got to knock on doors and speak to people who

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Speaker 1: were integral to all sides and and just to find

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Speaker 1: out kind of in wasn't in real time exactly when

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Speaker 1: the tragedy happened, but it was in tragedy, lingers and

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Speaker 1: the effects. You know, they lad there forever, um, and

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Speaker 1: so I think that's part of what's kept us is

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Speaker 1: really the people who were involved. I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: set up so the for those of you that don't know,

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Speaker 1: there were a family of eight, right, were massacred execution

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Speaker 1: style in this town, in different homes, all on the

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Speaker 1: same day, all on the same day. And initially reports

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Speaker 1: said that it was in fact execution style, and they

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Speaker 1: thought it was this assassin who came in in the

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Speaker 1: night and went to four different locations. And we now

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Speaker 1: know that it was far from an execution. It was

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Speaker 1: a straight massacre. It was an overkill. Four members of

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Speaker 1: the same you know, eight members of the same family,

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Speaker 1: ranging in age as young as sixteen years old. We're

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Speaker 1: all murdered. Some of them were mothers holding their babies.

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Speaker 1: And to find out two years later, the babies, thankfully

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Speaker 1: we're all left alive at the scene. Um tragic as

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Speaker 1: even that sounds for the life to come. But find

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Speaker 1: out two years later that a local, very prominent family

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Speaker 1: who was very close to the victims were in fact

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Speaker 1: the killers. And um, now we know that as fact,

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Speaker 1: as one of them has pled and you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a mother, a father, and two sons, and the four

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Speaker 1: of them we now know, as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: plotted and planned for months and months to essentially eradicate

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Speaker 1: an entire bloodline and did so pretty successfully and almost

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Speaker 1: got away with it. And you know, the town is

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Speaker 1: a small town, like so many that we are all

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Speaker 1: from myself included, and imagine knowing either somebody on the

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Speaker 1: victim side or someone on the accuse side. It was

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Speaker 1: a small town that was rocked. It's considered the largest

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Speaker 1: crime investigation in Ohio's history. So you don't go anywhere there,

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Speaker 1: whether you're at the Walmart or at the you know,

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Speaker 1: the local little shop. Who is not affected they went

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Speaker 1: to high school with the accused, or they know into

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Speaker 1: a well one of the victims, so and and not

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Speaker 1: to mention. So this was in two thousand sixteen, right,

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Speaker 1: And then this family that you're referring to, which I

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Speaker 1: can't wrap my head around. You know some parents that

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Speaker 1: then commit murders with their kids like together, that's there's

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Speaker 1: obviously yes, no, I can't. But so then it was

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Speaker 1: two years right until they were arrested. So you're talking

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Speaker 1: about a close knit community and amongst this, that family

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Speaker 1: was just there for two years acting like, wow, I

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Speaker 1: can't believe this happened. So that's enough to re rattle you, right,

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Speaker 1: the whole communities rattled in two thousand sixteen. Then two

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Speaker 1: years later they found out that these people that they

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Speaker 1: were probably opening up to about this were the ones

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Speaker 1: that did it. And so then you shook again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the the Wagner family, who again is now all

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Speaker 1: the four of them are in prison. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: they took to social media and as Stephanie said, they

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Speaker 1: were connected to the Rodents, the victims family, and so

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Speaker 1: they were saying in interviews and on their own posts,

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to find the monsters who did this,

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Speaker 1: and we have such love for the Rodents, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's really um diabolical what they were doing, just the

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Speaker 1: you know, the level of fraud really they were perpetrating.

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Speaker 1: After the fact, not to mention just one other detail

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Speaker 1: that kind of stucks with us. You know. Season three

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Speaker 1: premieres today, and we have a lot of access to

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Speaker 1: the accused families who were under a gag order or

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Speaker 1: frankly were petrified and too scared to speak with us

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Speaker 1: for good reason, and this looks like a regular family, right,

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Speaker 1: So Angela Wagner, who is the accused mother. So there's

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Speaker 1: a mother, her husband, Billy Wagner, her eldest son, George Wagner,

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Speaker 1: and then a younger son, Jake Wagner. The mom, now

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Speaker 1: we know now was plotting it. She was on surveillance

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Speaker 1: at Walmart buying the equipment for silencers and the shoes

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Speaker 1: that were later found at the crime scene. They had

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Speaker 1: murder meetings, sitting around the kitchen table, meeting planning to

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Speaker 1: do this. And at the time they lived together. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine this? So they got a car, they got

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Speaker 1: into a car allegedly, and then went from one house,

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Speaker 1: committed a massacre, got back in a car, went to

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00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: another house, committed a massacre four times, and then went

426
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: home burd and went about life. And that piece that

427
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: is just too much to kind of wrap your brain around,

428
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: because you'd like to think, no, I under saying like

429
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: this is why parents should never live with their adult children.

430
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: Good point. You know, it's like it drives people to

431
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: the point of insanity just having a murder. Yeah, and

432
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: they just decided to plot murders of other people. I mean,

433
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: this is just clearly mental illness, but also you know

434
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: the term murder meeting. I just imagine them sitting around

435
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 1: the dinner table being like, oh, honey, past the potatoes,

436
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: and who should we kill first. It's like that's out

437
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: of a comedy. It almost doesn't even seem real. They

438
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: seem like fake people. And the fact that when they

439
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: found the bodies, they weren't just shot multiple times, they

440
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: were also bruised, so you know that they were beaten

441
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: before they were shot. So it leads to so many

442
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: questions about the motive. And I think that you know,

443
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: they've said it it's about custody, battle and that sort

444
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: of thing, But what do you think it really is?

445
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: Do you think that's it? This is you have no

446
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: idea the question you just asked. By the way, you're like,

447
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: that's what the whole show was about. Yeah, yeah, I'm

448
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 1: gonna give the I'm gonna give a real short, black

449
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: and white answer, which is not the full scope um

450
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: allegedly because you know, this is all still coming out

451
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: in court. Um. It is custody over a little girl

452
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: who was shared between the youngest son on the killer side,

453
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner and Hanname Rodin and and they were an

454
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: unmarried couple who had um by all accounts fairly happily

455
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: for years, split custody and they lived the three of

456
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: them as a little unit, part time at one family,

457
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: part time at the other. Uh, their romantic relationship ended.

458
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: And yeah, the thought that it was an absolute obsession

459
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: of getting custody of this little girl by the killer family, well,

460
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: guess what, you don't have custody ever anymore. So nobody

461
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: that's correct. Um So anyway, that that is one simple answer. However, Stephanie, listen,

462
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: Stephanie just took her heels off, exactly, she took her

463
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: hoops out. She's ready to go. We are like, listen,

464
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: this is at one point went from a who done

465
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: it to a wide done it right? So we were

466
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: really looking into the why how could there possibly be

467
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: a killer family who sticks to the same story for years?

468
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: Very difficult? And how could there be a killer mom

469
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: at the helm of this who's really setting her kids

470
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: out for potentially death? Also, they could have all been

471
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: killed in this massacre. So, you know, season three, that

472
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: becomes part of our initial obsession. But I think now

473
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: we're seeing that, you know, this is a really convenient narrative,

474
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: and you know, trials are now on the horizon, so

475
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: much of this will be disclosed. But it seems as

476
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: though custody, in my humble opinion, allegedly is the touch

477
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: point that makes us all categorize it and put it

478
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: in a nice safe box and say, okay, must have

479
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: been over custody. That's that. And now we're seeing that

480
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: there there may have been a much larger plot and play. Um.

481
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: There's been talking about the cartel, and there's been talking

482
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: about more nefarious things happening in the in the greater

483
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: pipes in area. UM, and we have access of really

484
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: some scary information, you know, on our podcast. We have

485
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: to put everything through really a very serious legal lens

486
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 1: because the trials are upcoming and some of the participants

487
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: are really participating in a way that they haven't before. UM,

488
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: So we can't say anything that hasn't been appropriately vetted.

489
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 1: But it's pretty the custody thing we now know to

490
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: be where I believe to be a very small piece

491
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: of a very scary puzzle. Well I know, I mean

492
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: that would make sense because like I said, all right,

493
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: well you didn't you thought all this through, that you

494
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: planned you aplotted out this whole thing, but you didn't

495
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: think that this is for custody. And now nobody has

496
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: the kid, right, so so there has to be more

497
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: to it. But the the the psychosis to have family

498
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: planning things, to go shopping at Walmart for your murder weapons,

499
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: and it's insane. And by the way, if you see

500
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: the picture of Angela Wagner, this mom, she just looks

501
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: like a regular person. She looks like anybody we all

502
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: could have grown up next to, you know. Isn't know

503
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: what they always say. They always seems so nice. I mean,

504
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: the prominent family and then and then you people, you

505
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: don't have to be worried about. That's why they've got

506
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: nothing to lose, you know. But they're just they're already

507
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: putting it out there. It's the regular people, you know

508
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: that we're worried about their secrets. Well, so I'm sorry, Dmitri,

509
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: No I hijacked you. No, no, no, no no, it's so.

510
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: But then to go like the way you painted this out, Stephanie,

511
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: is then they went and committed a murder, then went

512
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: to the next house. Never once along that way did

513
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: they have any remorse, like you would think at some

514
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: point when someone goes and they kill someone, they go whay, wow, okay.

515
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: But to do it four times and never shift. How

516
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: does nobody actually have some moment of clarity midway that

517
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: they're just saying, no, let's not do this, Oh my god,

518
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: please no. Now we are hearing um and learning pieces

519
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: of that night that does shape even what we're speaking

520
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: about now. I'm in a pretty profound way, um, in

521
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: a jaw dropping weight. We're on season three right now.

522
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: We also did a documentary about the murders prior to this,

523
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: so it seems impossible that you could speak about one

524
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: story for that long. And just when we think we're like, okay,

525
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: that's a wrap, the whole thing gets all turned around

526
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: and we're more confused, probably this season than ever before

527
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: because as trials now happen. And by the way, this

528
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: Insullary family that was so close knit and they all

529
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: lived together and they can get murdered together in that

530
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: crazy killer mom well, now they're eating each other little

531
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: by little and you know, turning on each other for

532
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: the first time in the tory tales that we're hearing

533
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: about them leading up to this murder spree, essentially in

534
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: the days leaving after and also you know they're getting

535
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: allegedly threats behind bars and are maybe potentially allegedly I

536
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: don't know how many times to say that, Um, you know,

537
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: maybe this is a convenient story to keep them alive

538
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: behind bars because there's a bigger plot and play. But

539
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: no matter how you slice it, you know, three young

540
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: mothers were murdered holding their babies. I mean, what kind

541
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: of a sick o? What can put that plan in place?

542
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: To me? In my had When you say it like that,

543
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: it makes me think because didn't they change their story

544
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: and come forward two years later and decide that now

545
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: they're going to change their plead to being guilty. And

546
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe you're right, there is or a bigger

547
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: plot at play because maybe they felt safer behind bars

548
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: than they did an ounce and even weirder at first

549
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: when they were arrested. That's when we got involved to

550
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: do the documentary. We went there immediately once arrests happened,

551
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: and we kind of set out to disprove that a

552
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: killer mom could exist or a killer family, which you

553
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: know there's not many of those, if any, Uh, it's impossible, right,

554
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: And they really did plead their innocence and they were

555
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: pretty convincing. You know. Honestly, I think when we started

556
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: this me of everybody was like, I kind of think

557
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: that they could not have done it. No way, it

558
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: has to be something larger. Um. And now to the

559
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: five year anniversary. Jake Wagner, the youngest son, he's the

560
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: one that pled and basically said, Okay, I did some

561
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: of this killing, and I am going to now testify

562
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: against my mother, my brother, and my father to get

563
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: their death sentences off the table, which is a pretty

564
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: big difference. UM. And now they're all jumping in to

565
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: either spare their lives, some of them really want to

566
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: get free, um. And they all their stories aren't really

567
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: matching up, and they have to, which is you know,

568
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: compelling in and of itself. There's going to be a

569
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: showdown in court where for the first time they're seeing

570
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: each other eye to eye, and you know, the fate

571
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: of all four of them really does lie in the

572
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: limbo is Jake the father of the child of the

573
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: custody correct, he allegedly found God in prison and by

574
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: the way, there's a whole religious element of this too,

575
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: which is fascinating. But apparently behind bars he discovered God

576
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: and was born again and is now you know, purging

577
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: his conscience. I think I can say this, but Court,

578
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: we were at something, we were at crime Time not

579
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: that long ago, and we were speaking about it, and

580
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: you know, the people who were there had really captivating

581
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: interesting questions that we're trying to sort of go through

582
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,239
Speaker 1: on the podcast this season. And somebody had come up

583
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: to us and said, I have access to Jake Wagner

584
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: on a regular basis and he's writing this manifesto behind bars,

585
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: and it kind of gave me chills. I don't know

586
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: what that means. Is a manifesto imply that he has

587
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: more to say and he's going to or he's going

588
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: to leave this manifesto behind and take his life. I'm

589
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: not suggesting that's going to happen, but there's clearly more

590
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: happening behind closed doors, and those doors are about to open.

591
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: The family feels very Ozark to me. It is I think,

592
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, like we like, well, at some point even

593
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: this season especially, I was like, this sounds like too

594
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: much like Ozark? Is is that possible? But we couldn't

595
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: imagine it being any weirder? And it is. Yeah, it's

596
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: at the and yes, it said it's very good visual

597
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: to revoke. Now, what was the what was the initial

598
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: thing that led I guess the tipping point that led

599
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: them to be suspects to begin with, right, because clearly

600
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 1: two years passed, whether they were suspects or not, something

601
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: tipped it where they're like, okay, now they were being accused.

602
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: Go go go, go get an hour. I mean it

603
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: was it was a multitude of things. I mean, they

604
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: the investigation was so broad and vast. I mean there

605
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: were many many national, federal and local agencies just scouring.

606
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: So it was in doing the you know, in doing

607
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: the interviews and talking to people. Listen, it's like if

608
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: any if any wife is dead, it's the husband. You

609
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: look at the significant other, right, And so I think

610
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: part of it just started from Okay, this is a

611
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: very close relationship, and then they start peeling the onion back.

612
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: And these families were connected on that wasn't their only connection.

613
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: That was business. They had generations of the family knew

614
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: each other. So it's unclear exactly if there's thus smoking

615
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: gun aside from evidence that came to be found. But

616
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: in the initial days, it was really just talking to

617
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: people and finding out and by the way, these Wagner's,

618
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: they bought a vehicle for the purpose of murder. We

619
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: know that now as a matter of fact, after the

620
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: murders happened, they were like, it's too painful to be

621
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: here any longer, and they went to Alaska. They basically

622
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: liquidated all of their things, dipped and went to Alaska

623
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: for two years, right in the like dead of night. Okay,

624
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: so but that doesn't make them guilty. Alright, fine, they're

625
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: there for two years. They come back to pike him

626
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: for reasons we still don't entirely know. Allegedly because the

627
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: eldest accused father, his father was dying and they came

628
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: back to care for him, and soon there after they

629
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: were arrested. And one other big quick note that I

630
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: think was also fascinating about this investigation and I promised

631
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: to stop talking, is after the after the murders, this

632
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: was again the largest crime investigation in Ohio's history. It's

633
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: a small town, so you know, everyone's doing their very best.

634
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: There was four different locations and they basically moved all

635
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: of these four homes, which were you know, very nice

636
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: trailer homes. You know that they were able to move

637
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: into a different location in this like trailers, No in

638
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: a hangar if you will to preserve evidence. And look,

639
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: we see this all the time. We were raised in

640
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: the House of Nancy Grace. Preserving a crime scene investigation

641
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: is top priority at all costs, right, not touching anything

642
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: if you're going to move four of these locations where

643
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: these murders happened, there's so much room for error in

644
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: that potentially, and we always believed that that would be

645
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: the cornerstone for the Wagner's defense. Good luck proving that

646
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: that wasn't tampered with or misplaced or or planted. Right,

647
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: you know that that seems like a narrative that everybody

648
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: could probably get on board with. We thought that we're

649
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: gonna be uh free to be honest. In fact, we've

650
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: always been there careful about what we say. We don't

651
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: want to Wagner coming for us. So you know, it

652
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 1: didn't seem as though they were going to spend their

653
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: lives in prison in my purview, and then Jake spoke up.

654
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: So it's that there's so many tentacles to it at

655
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: this point, but it is a really fascinating investigation also,

656
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: and how that is now unfolding and the Special prosecutor

657
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: who's about to go to trial is a really magnanimous

658
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 1: female prosecutor who's like not letting it go and is

659
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: a superstud And you know, we're really just bracing ourselves

660
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: for the information that we're we're all kind of dying

661
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: to know, I mean, getting contaminated evidence and tampering with evidence.

662
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: And I mean this is such a common theme. It

663
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: happened in the Amn and Knox case, it happened in

664
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: doomin a ram Z, and it happens so frequently. And

665
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: usually when things are tampered with, these are the biggest

666
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: cases because there are loose ties, so you find people

667
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 1: really pulling at strings to create storylines that make sense

668
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 1: because they either want to force a narrative or they

669
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: want to uh, you know, force justice whatever that looks like.

670
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: And I mean there are so many things that you

671
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: were saying that we're just like so thought provoking and

672
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: also terrifying, you know, when you're like, we don't want

673
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: to Wagner after hotly, Yeah do they so they know you,

674
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: but I mean they're behind bars. But there are other

675
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: Wagners out there well, and we know many of the Wagners,

676
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: to be honest, We've interviewed hundreds of people, whether remotely

677
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: or in person, collectively Courtney, Jeff and myself and Chris Graves,

678
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: who also works on this with us. We've entered so

679
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: many people on all sides, and many have choosen to

680
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: be either anonymous or have don't want super diticipate after

681
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: what they've told us. So I feel like and we

682
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 1: can't say anything unless it's you know, so right, because

683
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: it could potentially have influence. But it is one of

684
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: those things that on the Wagner side, the Acque side,

685
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: you know, they don't believe it either. You know, people

686
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: are heartbroken that their families, who they really believed in

687
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: and we're rallying for and trying to get out of prison,

688
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: are now saying, oops, I might not have been that

689
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: honest from the jump, and I'm so sorry to be

690
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: such a great liar. And how to four people become

691
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: such great liars together? And at the end of the day,

692
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: not to lose sight of these you know, beautiful road

693
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: and family. They were very beloved and lovable and they

694
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: were a fun, loving Gregarius family who had so much

695
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: ahead of them. Um, it's so easy for them to

696
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: get lost in the story and you know, we always

697
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: try not to belabor that, but um, it's one of

698
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: those stories that has really become a piece of our DNA,

699
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: and we think about it and talk about it to nauseam.

700
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: So thank you for living me. So no, I'm gonna so,

701
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask a question. It's a weird question. And

702
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: I tried to let it go in my head, but

703
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to, so I just have to

704
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: get it out. You said that they bought a car

705
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: to commit the murders. What car did they buy for?

706
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: What's what's your murder vehicle? It's the truck. There's always

707
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: a truck, isn't that what Brian Laundry. Isn't that the

708
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: car that he Well the other thing too, is I

709
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: feel like running is obvious guilt, you know. I mean

710
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 1: that happened with Brian Laundry. He immediately dipped after he

711
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: murdered Gabby Petito. And then even when they went to Florida,

712
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: I think it was too much for the parents, so

713
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: they went on a trip camping there, like we just

714
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 1: got to get out of here. You know. It's it's

715
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: constant running from the truth and the pain. And I mean,

716
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: go to Alaska, I mean, that's as far as you

717
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: can get, you know. So their thought on it was that,

718
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's speak to that at the time

719
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: was that we're leaving not as a dip to show guilt,

720
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: but rather there's still a three year old daughter at

721
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: the center of this who just lost her entire poor family.

722
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 1: And you know, the town had had some rumors about

723
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: the Wagner's potentially being involved somebody through a bottle or

724
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: something at Angela Wagner, and they thought, you know what,

725
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: for the sanctity of our beautiful three year old, we

726
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: want to be able to move on healthily with We're

727
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: gonna reevaluate and reimagine our lives in Alaska, far far

728
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: from the police. And by way, did they went to

729
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: church every day and seemingly kind of picked up and

730
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: moved on And maybe had they stayed there? So curious,

731
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: why would you possible? Why would they come back? Yes?

732
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: And by the way, Jake Wagner, the don't get restarted.

733
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, the youngest son whose daughter and the custody

734
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: was at the center of this. Allegedly, this guy goes

735
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: to Alaska with his family and meets another young girl

736
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: meets another young girl at church who he's basically set

737
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: up with through their pastor. And this young girls like

738
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: she he seemed lovely, can you imagine? And then a

739
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: nice handsome single day they got married. Yeah, they got married. Yes. Yes.

740
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 1: And now she's a big piece of this too. She's

741
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: on the witness list. We have recently heard that the

742
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: special prosecutor had to create a new Social Security number

743
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: for her because she had to be you know, gone

744
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: in the dead of night for her own safety. Um.

745
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: And you know, we've been really actively hoping to you know,

746
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: get access to her and hear her voice. But again,

747
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: she was married into a killer family. Um, you know,

748
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: talk about it. I have the worst gut in the

749
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: world when it comes to Truelo. So you know, can

750
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: you imagine this young yeah? You know so? Um yeah.

751
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: The plot pickins, you know where when we do go

752
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: through the Alaska piece of it in in lots of

753
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: detail this season. I mean it makes me think, like,

754
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: is Alaska that bad that it would force you to

755
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: come back and admit guilt to a crime. Many people

756
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: love Alaska, including Jewel you know, a Laska's a beautiful

757
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: place too many, Um, but it seems far away and

758
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: very remote and again forever going to church. One of

759
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: the oldest sons too. This has always haunted me, the

760
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: eldest son, George Wagner of the accused. He has requested

761
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: a Bible in solitary confinement in prison, solitary consignment to

762
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: get ready. I'm starting to think that everyone that goes

763
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: to church isn't always good and doesn't always have the

764
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: best intentions in mind. Where did you get that idea

765
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: from Dmitri? Piece a few things together from different things

766
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: all over the world. Interesting, Well, you know, did they

767
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: have children together? Did not know that? Behaving as like

768
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: a bit of a you know, new stepmother to uh

769
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: the three year old at the time, and you know

770
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: thought she married into this like lovely family, not realizing

771
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: once you get married into this family, it seems like

772
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: the the windows shut in, the doors shut, and you're

773
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: you're stuck in health captive. Really, Mama Waggoners going to

774
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: Walmart at Yeah? And they so just even before all this,

775
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 1: you know, you had mentioned how they lived together as

776
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: adults and then also with any women. I mean George Wagner,

777
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: the oldest one, he had a wife for a while,

778
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: then she too moved in and when they were splitting

779
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 1: custody with Hannah Rodin, so it was really complete control.

780
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: So not just mom dad, the two sons. Any woman

781
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: they were seriously involved in was then also brought in

782
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: and kept under surveiled. They were surveiled, they were tracked,

783
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: they were and this goes, this goes back years. It's

784
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. What what is hers? What do you think

785
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: her issue is the definite level of yeah, it's I

786
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 1: mean it's insane too, you know, to try and put

787
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: reason to something unreasonable as I we struggle with that.

788
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: So right, you know, what is it? I It's hard

789
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:10,919
Speaker 1: to know, except there is definitely obsession um protection of

790
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: whether it's the bloodline or what Angela Wagner the mother

791
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 1: deems as hers, which would be her boys and anyone

792
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: who impacts them. So you met, you got you meet

793
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: one of the Wagner boys, who are lovely by many accounts,

794
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: we might add, we've heard many stories this season seasoningly

795
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: so they were shy and they were loved. They meet

796
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: a nice girl. That nice girl comes into the mix

797
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: um and then as immediately cut off from her family.

798
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: If there's a child involved, they get rid of the

799
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: mom and force custody to be given to Angela Wagner

800
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: at the killer mom, who's really the grandmother now of

801
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: like the said three year old, for example, And then

802
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: she starts making them call her mom, so they you know,

803
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner kill her mom was in her son's girlfriends

804
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: social media. She was tracking all of them for months

805
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: and months and months. And the one the second the

806
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: eldest son's now ex wife who thankfully survived. Um, and

807
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 1: this did not happen. It's the youngest. I'm making this

808
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: very confusing. There's two times now that Angela Wagner killer

809
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 1: Mom has forced custody issues on both of her sons

810
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: loved ones in hopes of getting rid of the women

811
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: and keeping the kids for herself. So the mom, the

812
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: mom is the epicenter of all this, and you think

813
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: she's probably the one that just from the inside the house,

814
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: step the whole family and masterminded all this just to

815
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: keep her little empire. And she's the she's the center

816
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: of everybody. We thought that in episode one, and now

817
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: I think if you asked me today and we're really

818
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: we're still mid stream on season three. UM, I don't

819
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: think that's it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, damn your reality show producers.

820
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, that's really good, you know, And now I'm

821
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: gonna go binge myself. I'm just I mean, because it

822
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: seems so clear and now it's so unclear. Wow. Thank

823
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you for that. Yeah, I mean

824
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: it's so interesting hearing about just obsession. Well, you know

825
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: the old adage, obsession breeds content, and you know, when

826
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: when someone is angry or furious or jealous or any

827
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: of those things, these like crimes of passion, whether they're

828
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: sexual involved or romantic or familial, becomes really intense. And

829
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: to have such an entanglement where the entire family is

830
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: essentially it's like a it's like a baby racket. I mean,

831
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: it is unfathomable. Really. Can you imagine being a girl

832
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: in the in the Alaskan church and she's like, oh,

833
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: I met this really nice guy and maybe maybe you

834
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: find out someone has something in the past, and then

835
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, well it was murdering. You're like, oh,

836
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: what happens? So someone fell down hit their head and

837
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 1: he was kind of blamed for it. No, it's or

838
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: is that he and his whole family allegedly massacred of

839
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 1: an entire family, Like, holy crap, wait, do you think

840
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: the pastor feels really bad? He's like, oh no, I

841
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: have the worst judge of character. And I set up

842
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: a very nice Christian Alaskan woman with an entire family

843
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: of murderers. You know, like, there's something we got gotta

844
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: talk to that pastor. He's really the problem here. How's

845
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: this sermon? The next Sunday, He's like, I'd like to

846
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,439
Speaker 1: come clean on something I kind of regret. Yeah. Yeah,

847
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: He's like, who do I confess my sentence too? Uh? Yeah,

848
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: I mean this is um And you know, we we

849
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: also make a podcast called Crazy and Lovely. You know,

850
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: really every episode kind of does look at that intersection

851
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: between when something starts really loving and seemingly normal on

852
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: its nose and then turns deadly. And unfortunately, those stories

853
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: are seemingly never ending, right and you know we're seeing

854
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: it in the news right now. Um, why why go

855
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: to see therapist, go talk to a family, a friend,

856
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: move something there? There's so many other answers than what

857
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 1: we talk about every day, which is murder. And I

858
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: don't know that we'll ever fully understand it, right, Courtney

859
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: and I debate this today. She's the cerebral, smart one

860
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: of us and is always saying, why do you ask why?

861
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: Why do you ask? Why you cannot make sense of

862
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: nonsensical people or situations? And I sort of have to

863
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: believe that somewhere we can. And you know, that's kind

864
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: of why I guess we're all on this right now,

865
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: and why crime is something that we're also obsessed with.

866
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: It's you know, we're on a justice journey, right and

867
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: we want to be able to categorize it in our heads.

868
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: And this is just another example of one that's really

869
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: been hard to do. It's that's that's the thing is

870
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: it's something that that we can't wrap our heads around.

871
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: So that's what intrigues you the most, right it scares

872
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: the shit out of you. And I think that's why

873
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: so many people are scared of death, because they don't

874
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: know the end. That's that's an answer that they don't know. Right.

875
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: But when these things happen and you think, okay, well

876
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,439
Speaker 1: let's look into it, and then you want the why

877
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: because it's the only way to make you feel better.

878
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: Because if you don't have the why, then anybody around

879
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: you can be one of these people. Right, So then

880
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: you feel your world dissolves an extremely small and you

881
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: feel and anything can happen. And I think that's a

882
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: scary point. So we need that. Why we need well,

883
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: what was the one thing that really set this off?

884
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: Why did people not see they should have seen? So

885
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: you always want that reason. Yeah, and Stephanie and Courtney.

886
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: Unfortunately we are out of time for today. I feel

887
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: like we could talk to you for hours about this,

888
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: and trust me, we've got questions. Okay, we have questions,

889
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: um and and you really mind me when you were like,

890
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: oh no, it's not at all what you think it was.

891
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna binge, watch binge, watch binge, listen the

892
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,439
Speaker 1: pot to the pod. I have no brain cells laft

893
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,439
Speaker 1: type and in Europe for a month, and I'm very

894
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: excited to listen to your podcast. And is there any

895
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: are there final thoughts you want to leave our listeners with?

896
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: Don't all jump in at once. I thought a hijacker,

897
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's because

898
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: you already hooked us with something. You're like, I know,

899
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: I got to come up with something that tops in

900
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: the last thing. You're like, we gave you not to

901
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: be hijackie, um court go for it. Um. I have

902
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,959
Speaker 1: plenty to say. UM No. I mean I would say

903
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: if um, you know, for for anyone who listens to

904
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:38,439
Speaker 1: UM piked In Massacre or Crazy and Love or right here.

905
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: I think one thing that I just put out there

906
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,720
Speaker 1: is to keep in mind that real people are involved

907
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: in all of these. That's really good. Do genuinely go

908
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: out to the victims. And also, you know, one thing

909
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: about the piked In Massacre specifically is we do get

910
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: a lot of uh, we get a lot of information

911
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: from people who tip us off to a lot of

912
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: interesting stuff when we take it very seriously, and we

913
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,959
Speaker 1: really do find interesting pieces of information because whether it's

914
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: a local or a distant family member or a psychic medium.

915
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 1: You'd be shocked how many listeners have reached out directly

916
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: with information. And it's really made us pivot many times

917
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 1: where you know, we thought we locked an episode and

918
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: then we get some mail from a listener and it

919
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: completely confuses us again and we go down that rabbit hole,

920
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: which ends up being accurate. So I would just say

921
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: anybody listening, please do reach out and find us. Um.

922
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: You know, we do read and we do take it

923
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: seriously and we um, we try to be mindful of

924
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: just staying out of the way of the story. And um, yeah,

925
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: our hearts go out to the Rodents and the Rodan family.

926
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Courtney and Stephanie. I mean absolutely,

927
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: our hearts go out to the Rodan family. This is

928
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 1: such a sad tragedy. I mean, this is one of

929
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: the most tragic stories I've heard in a really long time.

930
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: I wish actually that is true, but there are constantly

931
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: new tragedies every day in America and around the world

932
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: at this point. But thank you so much for your

933
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: work and for your beautiful hearts and souls. And you

934
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: guys go listen to the Piketown massacre. I mean, if

935
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: you're not, I am, and I need someone to talk

936
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: to about it. Yeah, everybody's there's three seasons. Check it out.

937
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 1: And then the trial starts for at least for for

938
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: George the fourth right that starts in August. So maybe

939
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: you guys can come back and when things get underway,

940
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 1: we can talk more about the about the trial and

941
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,959
Speaker 1: or the verdict. And thank you so much for having

942
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: us in real time crime. Yeah, we're mega fans, so

943
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: keep the fight going and thank you for having us well, Dmitri.

944
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: I think that is the conclusion of this episode of

945
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: I mean just sad after sad after sad, So I'm

946
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: gonna go I mean just also just totally bonkers because

947
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, there's going to be a Netflix movie about

948
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: this family, and I hate that I have to think

949
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: that way, but I'm like, no, it's obvious. It's like

950
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: this is too wild and out there and weird, and

951
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: I almost am so fascinated by these bigger stories where

952
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: there's always something larger at play. We're like, wow, where

953
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: did this start to unravel? You know, going from getting

954
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: away with murder to deciding that you want to plead guilty.

955
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: I gotta know everything. I gotta know, like you could

956
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: have gone away with this. We need more information and

957
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 1: if you have information, you know what to do. Call

958
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: them live at eight six six crime. That's eight six

959
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: six to anyone. Come, it's ani six to anyone Time.

960
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: That's eight six sext two on two seven four or

961
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: six three you guys. Um sorry about that weird whisper,

962
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: Stay safe, we love you, don't commit me crimes can night.

963
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 1: Oh you can also find us on the internet, you know,

964
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: all the places, Dmitri Pappas on Instagram again like I

965
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: said before, very funny Instagram account, and Leo Lamar with

966
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: two hours at the end on Instagram, Twitter TikTok has

967
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 1: five hours, and my to dot com. I'll be doing

968
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: some stand up in London, so if you're in town

969
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: next week, dm me. I got a lot of messages

970
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: when I was in London last weekend. I did not

971
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: have time to do stand up because it's there for

972
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: a hot twenty four hours. But after that very hot,

973
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: very hot, I mostly slept a um. But I will

974
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: be back next week. I'll be doing some shows. Message

975
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: me and I can send you the information. Again. We

976
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 1: love you, I'll stay safe. Good night. It's real soon,

977
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,720
Speaker 1: real soon around the trade. I mean, is it actually

978
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: real time crime or solving anything or is that just

979
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: the thing we say it's a thing we say, got it? Okay?

980
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: See NAXT week for more real time crime, only on

981
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio