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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, the

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Speaker 1: podcast that doesn't have a tagline because the tagline is

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Speaker 1: in the title. I'm your host. Margaret Keljoy with me

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Speaker 1: today is an absolutely fantastic musician, the one and only

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Speaker 1: Julie Holland. Julie, how are you? I am utterly thrilled

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Speaker 1: to be here with you. Yeah, I'm glad you're here.

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Speaker 1: Our producer Sophie, who is better known for her work

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Speaker 1: as a dog mom to one of the two best

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Speaker 1: dogs in the world. So are I three best dogs

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Speaker 1: in the world? Anderson Huh, yep, that's Sophie. No notes. Yeah, Julian,

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Speaker 1: What's I wrote in the script? Do you have any pets?

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Speaker 1: But before we started, we we made this clear, but

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Speaker 1: do you want to introduce the listeners to your pet?

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Speaker 1: The dog? The dog in my life is His name

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Speaker 1: is Jocko. He's not named after Jocko Pastorius. He's named

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Speaker 1: after the werewolf cartoon character that Michael Hurley has drawn

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Speaker 1: for a number of decades. He's that Jocko. I do

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Speaker 1: not know either Jocko. So it was like it was like,

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Speaker 1: Margaret's not gonna go any of that. But that's great.

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Speaker 1: He's a nice dog though I'm very, very very handsome boy.

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Speaker 1: He's very beautiful. I love him and our audio engineers Ian.

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Speaker 1: Our theme music was written for us by a woman.

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Speaker 1: This episode is part two of a two part series

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Speaker 1: is about ever Heart a k Ahmad Sadi. If you

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Speaker 1: haven't listened to part one, not only will none of

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Speaker 1: this makes sense, but I will be personally not not mad,

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Speaker 1: just disappointed. I really thought we'd raised you better than that.

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Speaker 1: Ah where we last left her hero, she just fled

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Speaker 1: Algeria because she may or may not have hit a

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Speaker 1: cop with a sword. She goes back to the villa.

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Speaker 1: Dad is despondent but the death of his long term partner,

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Speaker 1: which is a reasonable position for him to be in,

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Speaker 1: and then her brother Vladimir has an even worse time

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Speaker 1: because his trader brother Nicholas tries to abduct him. His

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Speaker 1: brother with a bunch of Russian spies shows up and says,

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Speaker 1: I own you body and soul, and you're coming with me,

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Speaker 1: and Vladimir refuses. He wants to hang out with at

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Speaker 1: the villa and work on cactuses. That's super scary and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of he's kind of broken by the experience.

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Speaker 1: He starts losing track of what's happening. He just sobs

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Speaker 1: in his room until one day, not too long after,

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Speaker 1: he decides to get a head start on Sylvia Plath

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Speaker 1: and puts his head in the guess oven and dies.

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Speaker 1: Her father Doubly despondent writes a letter to a friend saying,

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Speaker 1: my cactiphile is dead because Vladimir was the kid who

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Speaker 1: took after his dad's love of cactuses or dads. And

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Speaker 1: she's alone in the villa now and she's caring for

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Speaker 1: alien and aging father. It is not nice times. She

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Speaker 1: almost marries this like Turkish diplomat guy, but he gets

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Speaker 1: really needy and started acting like he owns her. So

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Speaker 1: she's like, no, I'm good, I'm not marrying you. And

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Speaker 1: her dad is real his throat cancer from the smoking.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you knew this, but smoking is

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Speaker 1: actually not good for you. It's actually bad for your health.

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Speaker 1: Despite all of the cigarette ads that we run on

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Speaker 1: this show, I don't think we get cigaretted at the

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Speaker 1: idea of getting cancer back in those days is so terrifying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's ter it's terrifying now. Yeah. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: he gets his affairs in order, like, he arranges money

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Speaker 1: as best as he can for his his remaining kids,

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Speaker 1: the two who aren't traders, and he leaves really detailed

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Speaker 1: instructions for how to take care of his cactuses, and

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Speaker 1: then he dies of throat cancer. Some people say that

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Speaker 1: Isabelle poisoned him, but if she did, which I don't

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Speaker 1: think is true, it was to end his suffering. The

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Speaker 1: people at the time who said she poisoned him were

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Speaker 1: the Russian siblings who are conspiring against her an anarchy

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Speaker 1: dad in order to try and get the money from

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Speaker 1: the estate. Basically, yeah, so they're just they're just talking shit. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I wouldn't put it past this Russian nihilist to

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Speaker 1: be like, isabel bring me my murder pill or whatever,

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Speaker 1: you know. I don't know. Yeah, I've had family, friends

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Speaker 1: and hospice, and that's that's a not an unlikely story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Isabel's like, well, fuck it, back to adventuring. It

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Speaker 1: is possible that at this point she steals a hundred

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Speaker 1: forty thousand Swiss francs from the villa in order to

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Speaker 1: keep keep it from falling into the hands of her

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Speaker 1: Russian half siblings. I don't actually think she did, but

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Speaker 1: it's like part of what they allege against her, along

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Speaker 1: with like poisoning Dad. It's like stealing a hundred forty

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Speaker 1: thousand francs or whatever, which I couldn't figure out how

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Speaker 1: to convert the modern money. It's a bunch of money.

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Speaker 1: So she gets dressed up in her best men's clothes.

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Speaker 1: She takes off her tunis the capital Tunisia, which is

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Speaker 1: also now a French territory after they stole it from

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Speaker 1: the Ottomans who stole from the people who lived there.

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Speaker 1: She dives right into hanging out with sales. She does

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Speaker 1: what she does best. She gets there, She hangs out

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Speaker 1: with sailors. She focks who she wants to funk. She

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Speaker 1: does what she wants to do. She dresses as a man,

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Speaker 1: and she demands a society view her and treat as

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Speaker 1: a man. But she's not actually disguising her sex or

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Speaker 1: to use just to use more modern terms for gender.

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Speaker 1: And how old is she at this point? Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: stuff in her life happens fast. Like at one point

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Speaker 1: in this I'm just like, wait, what she's only like

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Speaker 1: twenty four? When is her? I don't know anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and she's sort of a trust fund kid like for

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Speaker 1: the best possible reason, which is that her dad robbed

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Speaker 1: her granddad. But she's still a rich kid who wants

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Speaker 1: to go live in a colonial land. So she rents

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Speaker 1: a nice house on a hill. She gets a dog

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Speaker 1: named a Dale, a black spaniel, and she hires a servant,

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Speaker 1: a seventy five year old local woman. And at this

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Speaker 1: point she's really just living as a man, at least

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Speaker 1: in her public life. See Mahma Sati is his name.

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Speaker 1: As far as we could tell, it's not that people

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Speaker 1: believe she was a man. It's not like people thought

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Speaker 1: she had a dick under her robes. And it gets

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Speaker 1: into this ship that like, as we were talking about

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Speaker 1: a little bit last time. Generally speaking, the Muslim world

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Speaker 1: is a better place to be gender deviant and sexually

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Speaker 1: deviant than Europe. For an awful lot of history, including

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Speaker 1: probably this period, none of it maps easily to our

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Speaker 1: current definitions of sexuality and gender. Europe had its own

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Speaker 1: conceptions of the time. Homosexuality and heterosexuality were both coined

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Speaker 1: and starting to be understood around this time as codified things.

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Speaker 1: The Ottoman Empire had its own thing going on, which

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Speaker 1: I think I'm not an expert about this to find

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Speaker 1: things more by acts than identity, So like it worked

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Speaker 1: for Machma to just be mahmad. She wasn't cross dressing,

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Speaker 1: she was just dressing. And within European conceptions, she might

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Speaker 1: not have been gay because she was sucking men, possibly exclusively,

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Speaker 1: although she did go to Brothels to hang out as

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Speaker 1: an observer at various points, whereas the Arab world's time

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Speaker 1: and contrast was kind of like, look, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to be rude, and she says she's a man, so

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Speaker 1: I guess I'll call her a man. This politeness, in

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Speaker 1: this attitude of taking people as they asked to be taken,

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Speaker 1: it sees her well for the rest of her life,

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Speaker 1: which is frankly how my my grandparents generation has tended

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Speaker 1: to handle my transness. And I don't know it works

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Speaker 1: for me. Sometimes it's nicer than all the like fucking

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Speaker 1: around about specifics. If I was going to force her

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Speaker 1: into a modern category might be gender fluid historians want

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Speaker 1: to work really hard to make her like be actually

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Speaker 1: sis by just and just pretending to be a man

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Speaker 1: for safety, but that it absolutely goes against what she said.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, she also was not, by

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Speaker 1: any modern conception trans masculine or a trans man. She

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Speaker 1: referred constantly to herself also as a woman. She would

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Speaker 1: refer to herself as both at a regular I don't know,

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Speaker 1: whenever she would want to. People also wonder this is

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Speaker 1: the promised what types of sex did she have? Segment?

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Speaker 1: People also wonder how she never got pregnant. And there

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Speaker 1: are two main guests people present. First, she might not

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Speaker 1: have been biologically capable. There's like so many I'm not

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Speaker 1: even like even ruder than conjecturing about like how she fucked.

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Speaker 1: I think it's conjecturing about like her body and how

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Speaker 1: it presented and stuff about fertility. So I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to get into that. People have various ideas about how

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Speaker 1: she didn't have periods maybe or something I don't know whatever.

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Speaker 1: Won't get into that. And Second, she might just not

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Speaker 1: have been really into penis and vagina sex, like maybe

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Speaker 1: PIV wasn't her thing. There's this uh presentation that at

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Speaker 1: least was held by at least a historian. I read

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Speaker 1: that Anal was very popular in the Muslim world in

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Speaker 1: comparison to the European world, because Europe was super fucking

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Speaker 1: conservative at that time. I can come up with a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways to fuck that don't get you pregnant,

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Speaker 1: but that's one of them. Anyway, God bless historians and

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Speaker 1: pop historians, every single one of us were sitting around

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out if c. Machmasai liked anal

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Speaker 1: you all went away in or should we just move on? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the that's their business, and good for her. I

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Speaker 1: feel like you said all the words magpie. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: she's running out of money and she fox off from

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Speaker 1: Tunisia back to Algeria because she misses the desert. She

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Speaker 1: wanders poor as funk around the desert hanging. This is

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Speaker 1: like the quintessential thing that she's now going to do

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Speaker 1: every now and then for the rest of her life.

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Speaker 1: She wanders around, poor as funk around the desert. The

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Speaker 1: whole trust fund kid thing is starting to run out

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Speaker 1: real fast. She's hanging out with the different tribes there,

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Speaker 1: and her passport there is that she's devout. People accept her.

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Speaker 1: She stays up late talking about Islam. She becomes probably

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Speaker 1: the first European to really wander much of those areas

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Speaker 1: on encumbered and accepted because she's not trying to show

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Speaker 1: up as an outsider, but as a Muslim, and people

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Speaker 1: saw and respected that. It's really fascinating. And this whole

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Speaker 1: time she's writing about it for European audience, which is

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Speaker 1: like everything about everything about her life. You can see

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Speaker 1: in a bunch of different ways. First, she's tying into

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Speaker 1: the orientalist fad that's running across Europe and is making

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Speaker 1: her money from it. But she's also laying down the

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Speaker 1: groundword for an anti colonialism and starting up support for

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Speaker 1: seeing these colonized people as people, not as this fantastic other.

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Speaker 1: And her relationship with anti colonialism is it's actually more

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Speaker 1: consistent than her gender, but not not a lot more consistent.

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Speaker 1: She's sucking a drinking and smoking how she's the whole

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Speaker 1: time and just living her best life. It sucks up

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Speaker 1: her health real bad. And as like a journalist observer role,

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Speaker 1: she starts working sometimes with the colonial government. She spends

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Speaker 1: two months helping tax collectors go around and rob the locals,

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Speaker 1: just to sort of see how it's done, but also

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Speaker 1: participating in it directly. It's like her job. They round

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Speaker 1: up all the people who haven't paid their taxes and

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Speaker 1: they all come into the public square, and she like

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Speaker 1: reads off the list of names um as the debtors

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Speaker 1: or either imprisoned or forced to give up more of

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Speaker 1: their stuff, So we could read her as like an

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Speaker 1: embedded journalist or as complicit, right, And I think either

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Speaker 1: reading is fair, frankly, and I think it will continue

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Speaker 1: to be complicated in a lot of different ways. And

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Speaker 1: she goes back and forth between Europe and North Africa

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Speaker 1: all the time to check on her remaining brother, Augustine,

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Speaker 1: the black sheep, who did the drugs but didn't have fun.

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Speaker 1: He's married now his new wife does not like Isabelle

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Speaker 1: ever heart. It's like this lady is a bad influence

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Speaker 1: on you, which is probably true. And to try and

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Speaker 1: sell the old villa, which she still couldn't do because

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Speaker 1: of the family conspiracy, is contesting the will and all

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Speaker 1: that ship. Everything is falling into ruins, and it's becoming

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Speaker 1: a pretty potent symbol of how you can't go back

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Speaker 1: to childhood. She writes about this a lot. She like

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Speaker 1: goes and sees, you know, her father and her brother's

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Speaker 1: grave and things like that. Eventually, the villa sells to

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Speaker 1: exactly zero fanfare because lawyer fees and ship means she

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Speaker 1: makes negative money off of it. Like in the end,

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Speaker 1: she walks away with negative sixty francs from the sale

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Speaker 1: of the villa. But then something positive happens in her life.

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Speaker 1: She makes her way back to South Algeria, to the desert,

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Speaker 1: and for the first time in her life, she falls

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Speaker 1: in love. She falls in love with this Algerian soldier

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Speaker 1: named slee Men And this is politically messy. He is

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Speaker 1: from a family of trader cops, local folks who wore

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Speaker 1: high up for the French colonial police, and he himself

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Speaker 1: is basically a trader. He's in the French colonial government military, sorry,

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Speaker 1: French colonial army. She tries to keep the relationship a secret,

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Speaker 1: I think honestly because she doesn't want to be associated

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Speaker 1: with the French military. But he like runs around and

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Speaker 1: brags to all of his army buddies and so like

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Speaker 1: everyone knows, and he's in a cavalry. So every night,

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Speaker 1: and it's a very kind of sweet. Every night he

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Speaker 1: comes over to her place and with borrowed horses and

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Speaker 1: they ride off and make love in the desert and

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Speaker 1: then come back at dawn. And then once again she

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Speaker 1: keeps calling herself poor. She moves into a big, old

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Speaker 1: fancy house in the city allowed that has multiple servants,

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Speaker 1: or she gets multi servants of this house. But once

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Speaker 1: again I can't tell what to make of this, because

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Speaker 1: probably she's just poor by rich European lady standards, not

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Speaker 1: by like people who are from these poor colonized places standards.

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Speaker 1: But there's this stories about how her and her boyfriend

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Speaker 1: and her servants all like together as friends close out

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Speaker 1: the bar every night in the area, like are just

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Speaker 1: like going out and partying all together, and so this

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Speaker 1: like servant thing might have been as much like a

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Speaker 1: way to like give her friends like jobs in a

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Speaker 1: place to crash and not actually like making them be servant.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It's hard to read it. And part

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Speaker 1: of why it's hard to read, right, she has amazing

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Speaker 1: security culture left over from her anarchist days, and it's

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Speaker 1: why we only know a tiny portion of the political

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Speaker 1: intrigue she was part of. She like constantly left politically

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Speaker 1: involved figures out of her writing, so she's like writing

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Speaker 1: about a bunch of people. If someone there is like

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Speaker 1: up to no good in a way she approves of,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't write about him. And one colonial administrator, he's

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Speaker 1: doing his due diligence about her when she's like comes

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Speaker 1: to an area one colonial administrator who's doing his due

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Speaker 1: diligence about her and then soon spying on her and

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Speaker 1: following her referred to hers still involved actively in the

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Speaker 1: socialist and feminist movements um in Europe and I believe

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Speaker 1: also in North Africa. So we literally don't know if

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Speaker 1: she ever stopped rolling with the anarchists and the socialists

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Speaker 1: and show when she had the chance, because she wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have written about it if she did. But well into

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Speaker 1: being a die hard Muslim who writes only about how

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Speaker 1: it Islam is the only thing she'd be willing to

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Speaker 1: spill her blood for. She clearly still has some affinity

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Speaker 1: for her old revolutionary roots or her other revolutionary roots.

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Speaker 1: She writes this one short story, for example, about a

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Speaker 1: group of Russian anarchists with one christ who one of

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Speaker 1: the anarchists christ like accepts the punishment for all the

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Speaker 1: crimes of all of his friends and he's sent into

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Speaker 1: Siberia and exile, but he's like not to be pitied

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Speaker 1: because he is instead living a holy life as a

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Speaker 1: as a martyr, and drawing comparison between anarchism and religion

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Speaker 1: and a favorable light, which I feel like kind of

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Speaker 1: sums up a lot of how her politics and her

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Speaker 1: political understanding is moving. Well. I mean, I even I

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Speaker 1: mean I remember like hearing Emma Goldman talk about that

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Speaker 1: like like using like religious language. So I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just don't I don't understand how you could even say

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Speaker 1: certain things without religious language, especially at the time. Yeah, no, totally.

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Speaker 1: I mean we we talked about martyrs all the time, right,

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Speaker 1: and like that's religious language, you know. Um, But I

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Speaker 1: love hearing how the Kurds talk about they're they're martyrs

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Speaker 1: like in it, and it seems it seems very secularized

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Speaker 1: and it's very like direct and it's not like this

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Speaker 1: one guy. It's like everyone who has fallen in defense

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Speaker 1: of this area is as a martyr. Yeah. Now it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. I hadn't. Yeah, So she's living possibly a

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Speaker 1: double life, not just between being Shamasati and Isabel eleber Heart,

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Speaker 1: but between being a colonial reporter and working sometimes with

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Speaker 1: the resistance. Or maybe that's what I want her to

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Speaker 1: have you been doing, because I always want her to

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Speaker 1: be doing the right thing. But none of us do

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Speaker 1: the right thing except Sophie and Anderson. So and her

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Speaker 1: involvement in anti colonialism is tape ring off at this point.

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Speaker 1: Her boyfriend, the imperial stooge of a soldier. He's part

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Speaker 1: of this, but she does Okay, I think this actually

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Speaker 1: explains it better. He's part of the Sufi Brotherhood, the Kataria,

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Speaker 1: the Kadari Brotherhood, and the Sufi's. They're kind of the

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Speaker 1: esoteric or mystical side of Islam. The Kataria had been

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Speaker 1: around since the eleven hundreds, there may be the oldest order,

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Speaker 1: and they're decentralized, with each group determining their own practices.

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Speaker 1: For the most part, one of my best friends as

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Speaker 1: a Sufi. Okay, awesome, and they're really into the Catteria,

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Speaker 1: are really into the personal connection between the person and

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Speaker 1: God and are opposed to the large institutions and governments

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Speaker 1: and Orthodoxy and all that ship that disconnect people from God.

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Speaker 1: It's not a surprise that this child of anarchists ends

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Speaker 1: up with them. And for the most part, the Sufi

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Speaker 1: orders have been like peace and love throughout history, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes you got to get an anti colonialism done. There's

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Speaker 1: this guy. I hope he gets his own episode one day,

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Speaker 1: because I want to know more about him. Basically I

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Speaker 1: like leave these like almost like notes to myself of

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Speaker 1: being like I want to know more about this person,

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Speaker 1: but since I have to write a new episode every

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Speaker 1: single week, I don't write and read any history that

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Speaker 1: isn't directly related to what I'm working on. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you for your service. Um. This guy's name is

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Speaker 1: is Abdalkator and he's the leader of the Kataria at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the French colonial rule, and for years

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Speaker 1: he led held a modern military at bay with the

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Speaker 1: lusiffiliation of tribes people. They hold huge ton of the

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Speaker 1: country for a long ass time. And the whole time

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Speaker 1: he did it, he's fucking on it about human rights

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Speaker 1: of his Christian enemies. He allows religious freedom for the POWs.

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Speaker 1: He goes down in history. Is like basically like the

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Speaker 1: guy who was best to the people he captured in war,

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Speaker 1: even decades after he lost. He intervened directly at great

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Speaker 1: personal risk during an anti Christian riot and the city

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Speaker 1: of Damascus, sheltering people in his home with his kids,

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Speaker 1: roaming out roaming the streets, saving more people's lives. And

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Speaker 1: he wasn't the only Sufi at the forefront of anti colonialism.

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Speaker 1: Sufie's were involved all over North Africa and South Asia.

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Speaker 1: But this is the leader of the Kataria for a

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Speaker 1: huge trunk of the nineteenth century. But by the turn

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Speaker 1: of the century, the Katia are in this position where

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Speaker 1: they decide that they are begrudgingly accepting French rule because

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Speaker 1: they believe that it will be temporary and they just

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Speaker 1: have to outlast it, and that being an open revolt

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Speaker 1: against it is a bad idea. Yeah, they wanted to

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Speaker 1: they wanted to avoid more bloodshed. Yeah. Basically this is

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Speaker 1: the attitude that Isabelle is working with two greater and

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Speaker 1: lesser degrees for the rest of her life. She's fighting

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Speaker 1: for autonomy and holding onto Islam and cultural values while

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Speaker 1: without trying to specifically overthrow the French government. And occasionally

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Speaker 1: she works to further the French government because a lot

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Speaker 1: of times when people want to avoid further bloodshed and

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Speaker 1: like seek peace, they do so by working with her enemies,

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Speaker 1: you know. Historically, Yeah, I could almost be seen like

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Speaker 1: her moving towards a liberal stance. Yeah, and like a

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Speaker 1: but it's interesting because she doesn't come across it as

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Speaker 1: like she's not getting into it as like this, like

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Speaker 1: European liberal woman who has calmed down. She's like learning

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Speaker 1: it from this Sufi brotherhood that she joins. Even though

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Speaker 1: brotherhood is in the name, the order she joins Kataria

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Speaker 1: is open to any Muslim man over the age of eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and they know she's not technically a man. They don't care.

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Speaker 1: There's a few other women in the ranks of the

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Speaker 1: brotherhood at this point, as daughters and widows who have

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Speaker 1: inherited some status within the organization. I'm unsure whether other

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Speaker 1: women had been directly initiated or whether they had only

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Speaker 1: kind of inherited their way in, but so's it's either

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Speaker 1: they were like, whatever, we don't care that you're a woman,

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Speaker 1: or they're like, what will you car yourself a man?

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Speaker 1: So fuck it and so cool, I know. And the

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Speaker 1: thing that's unprecedented about her joining isn't her gender, it's

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Speaker 1: that she's the European. She doesn't write much about her Sufism.

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Speaker 1: It's part of I think this whole security culture thing,

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Speaker 1: and that ship was secret, so no one quite knows

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Speaker 1: how important it was to her. It was obviously very

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Speaker 1: important to her, and she writes about some of it right,

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Speaker 1: but it she kind of leaves it out of a

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Speaker 1: lot of including her diaries and ship. Have either of

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Speaker 1: y'all been to a mosque ever? I have not. My

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Speaker 1: Sufi friend took me to the Women's Mosque of America

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Speaker 1: and it was like one of the loveliest times I've

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Speaker 1: ever had in any kind of religious setting. It was

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Speaker 1: so beautiful. And I was raised in a really stupid cult,

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Speaker 1: so I hate religious stuff, like even like my parents,

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Speaker 1: my poor dumb parents met as as like Joe's witness

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Speaker 1: and like I so like I've had to like work

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Speaker 1: really hard to like heal from that experience and like

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Speaker 1: all this like family trauma around that, and like going

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Speaker 1: to the mosque was the loveliest religious experience I've ever had.

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Speaker 1: It was called the Women's Mosque of America. Very peaceful,

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Speaker 1: beautiful place. There are a lot of women who were

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Speaker 1: raised in the Nation of Islam and came back to

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Speaker 1: regular Islam, and it was just like it was so

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Speaker 1: it was such a diverse environment. It was so it

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Speaker 1: was so cool, and it didn't feel religiously to me,

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Speaker 1: like it it felt just like people trying to support

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Speaker 1: each other in living a good life. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. That's like one of the main things

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Speaker 1: that religious institutions like are capable of being used for,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of ways come from uh, you know

403
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: what else is capable of No, I don't really have

404
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 1: anything good here, um, but we're going to interrupt you're

405
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: listening to make you press the forward button probably six

406
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: or seven times on your podcast listen to app because

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00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 1: advertisers until you here on woman again. Yeah, and we're back. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Actually that's the I feel like that's one of the

409
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Speaker 1: most important parts of the musical cue in the podcast

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00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: is so that you know where to stop. Literally. I

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Speaker 1: I had people that were like, no, I don't really

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Speaker 1: want to have music ad person. I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you do. It's part of the listeners quality of life.

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Speaker 1: So these are some of the happiest days of her life.

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Speaker 1: She's participating in cool mystical secret rites. She's living with

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Speaker 1: her drug buddies and our servants. She's sick a lot,

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Speaker 1: and her boyfriend Sliman is sick a lot too. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like this often gets left out of stories

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Speaker 1: of adventurers, is that like, actually, like not everyone's like

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Speaker 1: fully able bodied at all times as they do these things,

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Speaker 1: you know, and they go ahead and get married at

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Speaker 1: this point, although religiously and not legally because Muslim weddings

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Speaker 1: are not enough for the French authorities. But she marries him,

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Speaker 1: and she makes it clear that she is not his servant,

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Speaker 1: and she says as much. She's more his brother Mahmud

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Speaker 1: than then she is his wife and servant. And yeah,

427
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: remember how her dad was involved in a plot to

428
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: funk up the Russian royalty and how that keeps catching

429
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: up with her. They come back, Yeah, what happened? They

430
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: hold a grudge. Uh, fucking Russian aristocracy. You gotta get

431
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: it done. He got he can't let him come after you.

432
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: They have the means. Yeah, so the Russian conspirators, probably

433
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: her brother Nicholas, write a letter to the colonial authorities,

434
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: being like, isabel Leberhard is a fucking spy who hates France.

435
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: This might be true, it might not be true. And

436
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: she totally killed Alexander Trofinowski in order to steal his

437
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: money and keep it from the rightful airs. That's the

438
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 1: that's the real black sheep of the family right there. Yeah, yeah, totally.

439
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 1: And it's like possible that she stole some money from

440
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: the estate, but I don't care at all. But it is.

441
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: It's not good that her reputation in the crimes of

442
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: the family are catching up with her. Slamanez transferred pretty

443
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: much just a funk with them, the two of them

444
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: to a frontier city called Botana, and she decides to

445
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: go with him, but first some worship happens. This isn't

446
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: anod transition, it's just an assassination attempt. She's hanging out

447
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: with some of her fellow sufi's working to translate a

448
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: letter for someone in January when a fucking dude with

449
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: a fucking saber hits her three times with a goddamn sword,

450
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: once on the head and twice on her arm, and

451
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: she survives. She actually jumps up and tries to go

452
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: for a sword on the wall, but the blow to

453
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: her head had her fucked up and she collapsed. The

454
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: assassin gets away and he yells basically like I'm gonna

455
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: go get a gun and finish her off. That's my paraphrase.

456
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: Pretty quickly, I believe that seems like a direct quote.

457
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: I'm on board. I mean, it's it's it's pretty it's

458
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: pretty direct, just vernacularly changed. He's like, I will go

459
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: get a gun and return and finish this job pretty quickly.

460
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: They figure out that it was someone from a rival

461
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: Sufi brotherhood that t Janaya. Oh no, he's caught and

462
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: he's cut because the head of her Sufi order goes

463
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: to the head of that Sufi order and it's like,

464
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: if you don't give this dude up, it's gonna be

465
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: really bad. It's just gonna be really bad. And so

466
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: they gave him up. He gets caught and he says

467
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: God told him to kill her. Meanwhile, Isabel, her hand

468
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: is almost severed from her wrist. It's like cut through

469
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: the bone. Fucking hell yeah. The blow to her head

470
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: wounded up like negligible because a washing line had deflected

471
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: the full of the blow, and she recovers. She spends

472
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: four weeks in the hospital, but she's never able to

473
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 1: bend her arm at the elbow again. I think that's

474
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: where the third blow got her. Almost certainly the guy

475
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: had been sent by the colonial administration to kill her.

476
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: The administration immediately after the attempt puts in motion a

477
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: campaign of slander, specifically that she had been fucking the

478
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: head of the Sufi order. Almost certainly she hadn't been

479
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: in this particular time, and as soon as she gets

480
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: out of the hospital, she rides off to Batten not

481
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: to reunite with with with her boyfriend. Clement says he

482
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: wants to marry her legally this time, but the commanding

483
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: officer disallows it for quote reasons, I won't tell you,

484
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: so yeah. In May, they just straight up kick her

485
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: out of the country. They don't want her, They're too

486
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: much trouble. So she goes to Marseilles to live with

487
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: her brother Augustine, but as a lever heart, you just

488
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: don't she doesn't stay down. As soon as she's in France,

489
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: she starts writing more again and getting published, and she

490
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: starts politicking really hard for two ends. One she wants

491
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: Lament transferred to Tunisia, and two to get it so

492
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: that she can marry him legally, which involves like basically

493
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: like writing all these high up people being like, I'm

494
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: not so bad after, I'll let me marry my boyfriend. Meanwhile,

495
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: her assassin goes on trial and she's allowed back into

496
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: Algeria For the trial. Everyone wants her to dress up

497
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: as a European woman instead of a Muslim man because

498
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: she'll get more sympathy and ship right, and she comes

499
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: up with this compromise. She's like, I'll dress up as

500
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: a European man, but she doesn't want to dress up

501
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: as a woman. But in the end, and this is

502
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: left out of some of the faster versions of people

503
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: telling her story, she dresses as a Muslim woman. In

504
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: the end, she decides it's the safest thing because she

505
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: wants to keep the cross dressing out of the trial

506
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: as much as possible, Like in case his defenses, she

507
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: was cross dressing, so I had to kill her. Yeah,

508
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: which when he was put on the stand was his defense.

509
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: She was cross dressing, so I had to kill her. Oh,

510
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: I mean, this is it's kind of shades of Joan

511
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: of Arc a little bit Joan of ARC's trial. I

512
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: haven't done the Joan of Arc episode yet. I've been

513
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: really looking forward to it, so I only know the

514
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: like cliffs notes of Joan of Arc. M she I

515
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: mean she you know, she dressed as a man in battle.

516
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: And also some people say as like to somehow to

517
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: protect herself from being sexually assaulted in jail, but she

518
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: was convicted by the court for for a cross dressing.

519
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: Never change, anti transpigoted society has never change in her

520
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: politicking she makes about the trial. She makes one thing

521
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: clear in the papers. She was not has never been

522
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: a Christian, She has not been baptized. This was not

523
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: an act of Muslim barbarism against a good Christian woman.

524
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: And more importantly so it basically she's working to make

525
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: sure that this trial doesn't play into Araba phobia. Awesome,

526
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: and in clever ways she manages to avoid saying it

527
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: was the French government that tried to murder me. But

528
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: she said it was the French government that tried to

529
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: murder me, like in all of the like weird politic

530
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: e ways where you're like everyone knows that's what she's

531
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: trying to say, but she does it and like covers

532
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: all of her bases because she's sucking smart. Did she

533
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: was she covering her head in court? I don't know

534
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: the answer to that. I know in general she shaved

535
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: her head and like most of the time war a Fez.

536
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: I don't know about her specific court clothes amazing, but yeah,

537
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: she hasn't had hair in a long time. But I

538
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: suppose if she and she comes up as an as

539
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: a Muslim woman, so probably so why we think why

540
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: I think that this assassin had been sent by the

541
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: French government. The French government was like really eager to

542
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: funk over this assassin. Whether they hired him or not,

543
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: it's and it's possible that he had been wanting to

544
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: kill her as a front against Islam, but it's more

545
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: likely been paid to by the French. He had gone

546
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: on a trip to the city without any money and

547
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: come back with a bunch of spending cash shortly before

548
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: the murder, and thirty years later a colonial official who

549
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: liked Isabelle dug more into it. But all of the

550
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: relevant records had been quote eaten by rats, and so

551
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: basically there's a cover episode as all this happened. Yeah,

552
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: but even some evidence of some blood money. Even though

553
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: this was their guy. The French government wanted to pin

554
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: the assassin as a religious zealot and make him useful

555
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: in a crackdown in Islam, so he was found guilty

556
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: and he was sentenced to a life of hard labor.

557
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: During the trial, the French also decided to give Isabelle

558
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: her formal year band forever from Algeria letter. She was

559
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: allowed to keep the sword he'd tried to kill her with,

560
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: though as a moment and she held onto it for

561
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: the rest of her life. She's like, you know if

562
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that's saber, that's the saber that dude

563
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: try to kill me. As soon as she leaves the court,

564
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: it's like fucking rules. As soon as she leaves the court,

565
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: she sets about on a campaign for amnesty for her assassin.

566
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: It works, and she gets his sentence knocked down to

567
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: a ten years instead of life of hard labor. And

568
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: at this point she's like starts her anti colonialism is

569
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: shifting yet again. At this point, she's like trying to

570
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: prove that Muslims are just as smart and capable of Christians.

571
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: And she wanted slamin her husband to rise in the

572
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: ranks of the very In her letters, she's like, rise

573
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: in the ranks of the very same agencies to whom

574
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: we owe our misery and become learned and read the

575
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: classics and ship. And she's kind of losing me with

576
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: that strategy. But well, she got into everyone in her

577
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: family that's left. It's just her and her brother, well

578
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: besides the two that don't count their destitute at this point,

579
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: like they're pawning their fucking clothes is they're like, sorry, coat,

580
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: we need food. More, she gets a job as a

581
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,959
Speaker 1: dock worker, even with her fucked up arm and translating letters,

582
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: and she's still away from her husband. Meanwhile, Sliman he

583
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: gets acquainted with old friend of the pod tuberculosis. He

584
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: gets laid up in the hospital and takes a while

585
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: to recover, and Isabelle is out of her mind with worry.

586
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: She's like, if he dies, I'm going to throw myself

587
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: into babbyl and die too. Finally, he shows up in

588
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: France and they're allowed to get married. She's succeeded at

589
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: all of her politicking. She puts on a black wig

590
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: and a blue dress. Marrying him in white would obviously

591
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: be a lie, and they tie the knot, and there's

592
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: like why she marries an address It like might have

593
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: to do with kind of this, Like yeah, yeah, yeah.

594
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: The whole point of this is to like, we're already

595
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: married in the eyes of God. This is just inst

596
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: that the eyes of the French government let us be

597
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: married so I can get the funk back to North Africa.

598
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: You know, was marrying in a white dress of thing

599
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: at the time, because I know that's kind of kind

600
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: of modern, like when is this happening? This is nineteen

601
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: o one and it is presented in the book. I

602
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: read that she specifically was like I believed it would

603
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: be scandalous, like there would be like people would be

604
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: talking about her if she married in white because everyone

605
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: would know that it's not true, and so she I

606
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: think she wrote about it. I think that's who we

607
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: have it from, is that she wrote about not wanting

608
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: to cause a stir or whatever, which doesn't sound like her.

609
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: But she's calming down. She's getting pretty old at this point.

610
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: She is twenty four years old. Good lord, like I

611
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: thought I had an adventurous early like adulthood. No. Absolutely.

612
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: A few months later, her husband's terms of service or

613
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: up and he gets the funk out of the military

614
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: and the two moved to Algiers into some sheep apartments.

615
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: She's starts wandering around cafes again by herself. This is

616
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 1: like kind of and she's already writing her in her diary,

617
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: but she's kind of bored and annoyed by her husband.

618
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: She starts working more again as a writer. She hadn't

619
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: really stopped, but she had a lag in her career

620
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: because a writer um was like perceived as like to

621
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: like uneducated and essentially proletarian by like like bougie socialists basically,

622
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: but which is like there's some irony, right, and also

623
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: at the same time it wasn't quite revolutionary enough because

624
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: she's just writing about daily life in Africa. But the

625
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: French authorities are fucking terrified her and her writing, and

626
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: they follow around constantly, like it's been several years now

627
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: at this point that she's just always tailed everywhere she

628
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: goes around living her life. It's like part of how

629
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: everyone knows the blow by blow of like what she

630
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: did and where she went. You know, yeah, this is

631
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: really impressive. Eventually she meets an editor who loves her work,

632
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: who also loves Russian socialism and nihilism and anarchism, althoughays

633
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: much more reformist than revolutionary himself, which honestly sounds like

634
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: about style at the time. And they hit it off

635
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: at the very least as um a professional level. And

636
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: if you want to hit it off at a professional level,

637
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: you can buy my new service in which you give

638
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: me money and I tell you how to give other

639
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: get other people to give you money. Does seem like

640
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: a good strategy. He's starting, You're starting at MLM. I'm

641
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: not a Marxist Leninis maoist, terrible Sander. But now that

642
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: you mention it, that is kind of how like the

643
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: Marxist Lenis maist thing works. So I guess I won't

644
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: do that. I guess I uh, I will avoid the MLM.

645
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: It seems like a bad business model. Okay, Well, instead,

646
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: I'll just convince people to run advertisements during my podcast.

647
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: What about that as a strategy. It doesn't seem morally uncomplicated. Okay,

648
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: all right, well that's what we're gonna do. Here's amounts,

649
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: and we are back. Hello, Hello, Hi, Sophie. You didn't

650
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: say hi, Hi. Thanks. So she gets to go back

651
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 1: now that she's like writing again and stuff, she gets

652
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: to go back to doing what she fucking is best

653
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: and love. She's wandering the desert. This time she's becoming

654
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: more and more just like her thing is mysticism, right uh,

655
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: this time in Suphie Brotherhood and all this stuff is

656
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: like big part of it. And she also starts basically

657
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: like in her diaries, she's like more and more after

658
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: the assassination attempt, she's more and more like I am

659
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: destined to be a mystic. I don't know if someone

660
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: hit me three times with the sword. Once one of

661
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: them made in my head and I got saved by

662
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: a clothes line. I might be into some mystic ship. Yeah, yeah,

663
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: I can, I can. I absolutely understand it. Yeah, And

664
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: so she starts visiting various magicians and rines, and her

665
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: and Slaman moved to this town of Tanez for his

666
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: new job translating. Then she becomes a war correspondent and

667
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: becomes embedded in the French military that's trying to pacify

668
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: the southwest of the country, and then she becomes a

669
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: spy for the French. This is the most morally compromised

670
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: period of this story. Wow. And the whole time everyone's

671
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: like following her around, being like this radical is doing

672
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: everything bad and she's like kind of middle of the

673
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: road at this point in most contexts, but it's not

674
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: enough for people. And so she starts working for the

675
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: French colonial government. She meets this this like gentler, kindler

676
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: colonial officer who is really into building peace treaties instead

677
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: of just shooting people, and she's like, Yeah, this is

678
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: the this is the ticket, this is what matters. And

679
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: so she starts writing this like liberal pro French propaganda

680
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: and spine and she starts writing about how like, maybe

681
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: it's better the French invaders than the Turkish invaders. Maybe

682
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: colonization is always bad, but sometimes there's like little benevolent

683
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: things you can pull out of it. But at the

684
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: same time she's doing that in her like official writing,

685
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: that's like propagandistic. She continues to write about daily life there,

686
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: and she writes a ton of stuff that's explicitly how

687
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: the French cultural invasion is unwelcome and unfitting, and then

688
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: France needs to leave people hell alone, which is basically

689
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 1: like this, um, kind of pushing for a protectorate instead

690
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: of direct colonial administration. This is not a positive I'm

691
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: not being like, this is good. This is what she's doing. Yeah,

692
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: I know. Those those are like published writings that she

693
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: was she was getting out at the time, a lot

694
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: of them. Yes, Um, some of it is, right, I'm

695
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: conflating a little bit of what she's writing in her

696
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: diaries and what she's writing in the papers at that point.

697
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: But the stuff she's writing about daily life and how

698
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: French French culture invasion is unwelcome, that is for papers, right,

699
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: And then she's part of this and after a few

700
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: months she's like, Nope, that doesn't fucking work. She sees

701
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: that the peaceably conquered people go through life without spark

702
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: in their eyes, when they have fear behind their eyes.

703
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: And she's like, oh, this isn't better. I love her,

704
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: I know, I know. So she stops writing propaganda. She

705
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: probably stops spying for the French. You know, there's there's

706
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: some case to be made that at various points she's

707
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: probably providing information in a double agent way of various ways,

708
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: but she wouldn't have written about it. So yeah, and

709
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: she was, she was. She was trying to trying to

710
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: pay the bills too. Yeah, absolutely, and she was like hounded,

711
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: but you know who else hounded her? Her new dog.

712
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: She has a new dog. This dog's name You just

713
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: made a hounded joke because it's a dog, Margaret. So

714
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 1: at this point point she goes back to doing again

715
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: what she loves, wandering around doing journalism and adventure. She's

716
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 1: sick about half the time. At this point, she gets

717
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: a bout after a bout of malaria, and at this

718
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: point she has syphilis, which is you know, sounds real bad. Yeah,

719
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: she hasn't she hasn't seen her husband about eight months

720
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: she's cheating on him, he's cheating on her. It is

721
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: not happy polyamory. She's going behind his back. At one

722
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: point earlier, when she's like being faithful to him, she

723
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: like thinks about fucking this guy and tells her husband like,

724
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about sucking this guy, and her husband is like,

725
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna murder you, and then myself for even having

726
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: thought that, And then the two of them, I know

727
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: it was really healthy relationship. And then the two of

728
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: them go out into the desert drunk with a handgun

729
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: and decided to kill kill themselves together, but instead they

730
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: stay up late telling stories and drinking more and then

731
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: wake up hungover and grab the gun and go home

732
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: and then here like finding it for a while. That's healthy.

733
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: It's a little, you know, romantic date with your heart.

734
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: About the dog, first of all, yeah, so we don't

735
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: know very much about him. Had long black hair, and

736
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: he was possibly he was a long dog. It might

737
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: be the way. Was he like a was he a

738
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: docks in? What's happening do we know? I don't know.

739
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. She's traveling around mostly on horseback, so

740
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: I like to imagine she either has like a lap dog.

741
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: That's like riding adventure for dogs. Oh I would love

742
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: that for her. Okay, that's what she has. What's his name? Anything?

743
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: I can't I couldn't find it. I only found the

744
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: old dog's name. I also didn't find out what happened

745
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: to the old dog or the new dog. People just

746
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: don't talk about. It's maddening. We need to go back

747
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: and just do a cool dogs of history where we

748
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: learned about the dog. I like that. I'm down. So

749
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: so her husband is like, I'm writing you a letter

750
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 1: to say I found someone else. That's chill, all right, Okay,

751
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: I know now, to be fair, she's just fucking people

752
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: and not telling him, I think, But actually I'm not

753
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: entirely certain because what did he say? Why do I

754
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: feel like it's going to be mad rude? Oh well,

755
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 1: it gets welcome to the okay anyway. Um, So she's

756
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 1: trying to go around doing her thing. She's like wandering

757
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: and has a puppy and it's like, yeah, I know,

758
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: I know, but she's getting too sick, and so she's

759
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: laid up in a military hospital in the south the country.

760
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: She writes slimming. She says, I miss you who I'm sick,

761
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: please come, basically, and there's nothing like illness to make

762
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: us appreciate our sickness and health partners. So Sliman packs

763
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: his bags and he heads off to take care of

764
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: his wife. Maybe he at least goes there. We know

765
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: that he goes there. They meet up, she discharges herself

766
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: from the hospital, and they talk about their future, and

767
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: she's like, babe, I got a fast car, fast enough

768
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: to get us away from here. They talked about their

769
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: future and how she's got a book waiting with a

770
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: publisher in France, and how that she's just going to

771
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: get some money as soon as it it sells. This

772
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 1: is a lie. She's finished the book, but it's currently

773
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 1: the manuscript is like in an urn in her house

774
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 1: or something. But she just wanted to start. I need

775
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: to start. I need to get an urn to keep

776
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 1: all my unfinished songs in YEA good idea, actually, yeah.

777
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: And you'll see why that is materially important soon. So

778
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: it's possible that he came down there to reunite, and

779
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: it's possibly came down to break up, and we'll never know.

780
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: The very next day, quote Slimmon, we were on the

781
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,439
Speaker 1: balcony of my room, on the first floor. Suddenly there's

782
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: a roar, like the procession of wagons. It came nearer.

783
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: People ran by, shouting the waddy, the waddy. Waddy is

784
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: a usually dry riverbed, like a seasonal run. I didn't understand.

785
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: The weather was calm, there was no rain, no storm.

786
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: In a minute, the water came down the riverbed, rising

787
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: up like a wall, running like a galloping horse, at

788
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: least two ms high, dragging along trees, furniture, bodies of

789
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: animals and men. I saw the danger and we fled.

790
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: The torrent caught us up in it. How did I

791
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: get out? I have no idea. My wife was carried

792
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: away and searchers found her body beneath the stairs the

793
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: next day. Most likely she'd run down the stairs trying

794
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 1: to get out of the house and out of the way,

795
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 1: only to be overpowered by the water and drowned inside

796
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: the house. Some of her friends believed that she used

797
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 1: the opportunity as a convenient suicide. Slimans count was a lie.

798
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: She hadn't been carried away by the flood. Um it

799
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: looks suspicious. Years earlier, you know, threatened to kill her,

800
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: and I think some of her friends were also on

801
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: a like you know. No one knows what happened in

802
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 1: those brief moments. She was buried in the nearby cemetery

803
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: and Muslim fashion under a white a white sheet. She

804
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: was twenty seven years old. Salaman did not go to

805
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: the funeral. He left immediately. It was her friends who

806
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: looked after her funeral and her literary estate. An editor,

807
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: the editor who kind of liked her from previous compiled

808
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: her writings into a novel which was not entirely faithful

809
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: to the manuscript, and he rewrote a lot of it

810
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: because a lot of it was gone. This is a

811
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: different one than the manuscript that was So they found

812
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: the manuscripts and a bunch of writing in this urn,

813
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: and some of it had survived the flood. That's why

814
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: you should keep your songs in a in an urn.

815
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: So this editor puts out this book called In the

816
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: Warm Shadow of Islam. It was a bestseller in France.

817
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: Biographer and Net Quebec describes it like this quote. This

818
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: desert andrew gene Amazon and the Sahara nomad with the

819
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: Heart of Gold appealed to what has been called Europe's

820
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: collective daydream of the Orient. In the same way, that T. E.

821
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: Lawrence T. H. Lawrence did to the British psyche later,

822
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: and for similar reasons, both appeared sexually and politically equip cable.

823
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: Both their conquests of exotic territories seemed to speak of

824
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 1: more private inner conquests, intriguing to the industrial mind. Both,

825
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: perhaps by quote going native, served to appease the rumblings

826
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 1: of guilt amongst the colonial powers. Both were perfect symbols

827
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: of escapism for armchair romantics or for people who had

828
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: been comprehensively compromised in their lives and wished they had not.

829
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: And frankly, I think that's who she still is um

830
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: in a lot of how she's understood, and that's what

831
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,919
Speaker 1: this episode flirts with in ways that I've been trying

832
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: to figure out how to navigate. Is this romanticization, you know,

833
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 1: And she romanticized the ship out of her life. Sliman

834
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: died three years later, laid low by friend of the

835
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: pod tuberculosis AH. When Algeria wanteds independence in nineteen sixty two,

836
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: they had nothing nice to say about their colonizers. This

837
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: was not a like you know. They systematically went through

838
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: and renamed all the streets that were named after French assholes,

839
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: uh and Europeans in general. They left only four, including Shakespeare,

840
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: who I guess wasn't really implicated in colonialism, and Isabel

841
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 1: ebber Heart. Even I know, even the French Algerian Albert

842
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: Camu was erased by the newly free country, but eber

843
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: Heart remained. That's that's saying a lot. Yeah, that's what

844
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: I know about Isabella eber Heart. A complicated person who

845
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: lived their best life as best they could and did

846
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: not fucking compromise on trying to live their best life.

847
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: She died so young, it's shocking, and I wonder, you

848
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: know how much she like what we can blame on

849
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: the culture at the time and what we can blame

850
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: on her in terms of orientalism, Like maybe she was

851
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: just like I got to be a little orientalist to like,

852
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: you know, get might get the story and the paper

853
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: and maybe that'll you know, help do an anti colonialism

854
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: or you know, like I'm like you you have to

855
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: just work with the culture that you're given at the

856
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: time in order, if you know, especially if you're in

857
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: the limelight the way she was, and she was using

858
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: her shred of celebrity purposefully. Now you're right, And I

859
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: think that's something that gets left out of it too, right,

860
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: is that you know, even like her her compromising attitude

861
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: towards colonialism in a later part of her life was

862
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: like seems to be coming from her experiences from like

863
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: her husband and the Sufi brotherhood that she was part of,

864
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: you know. And so it seems entirely possible because overall, um,

865
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: that I've been able to find, it seems like she

866
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: has a very positive overall conception from an anti colonial

867
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: point of view, and specifically the work that her work

868
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: did to get Europeans to understand what was harmful about

869
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: what was happening in North Africa, you know. Um. And like,

870
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: I'm focusing so much on her life right now, and

871
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,959
Speaker 1: I like didn't focus nearly as much on her writing

872
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: because it's like a harder thing to tell a compelling

873
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: story in the in the audio medium. But yeah, now

874
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: that's that's such a good point. Yeah, she's using her

875
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 1: her bit of celebrity everywhere she can for both keeping

876
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: herself alive as best as she can and also pushing

877
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: for the things that she cares about, which is of

878
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: the cultural autonomy of North Africa and a lot of UM.

879
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, her celebrity was um was

880
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: extremely uh minimal. Yeah, and she was she was doing

881
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: what you know, it was mostly scandal. It was like tabloid. Yeah.

882
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,959
Speaker 1: And then people used her in a million different ways

883
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: after she died, Like there's so many, especially for the

884
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: next couple of decades. There were so many like plays

885
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: about her life and stuff that would like create this,

886
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: I create her as an icon rather than a person,

887
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: you know, mm hmm. And I completely get it. Yeah. Oh,

888
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: she also probably died stoned, which is probably a nicer

889
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: way to die. I forgot that part. Yeah, I don't know.

890
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,959
Speaker 1: I just remember that die the way that she died

891
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, sounds terrifying, it really does. On that

892
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: uplifting note. Do we have any plugables, Yeah, I want

893
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: to talk about my new book raw Dog, I wrote

894
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: under a pseudonym nom de gear I've been using called

895
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus. And people should go out and pre order

896
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: this book. It's about hot dogs, a lifelong something that

897
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: you eat all the time. Margaret, that's true. Um, but yeah,

898
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: so go out and pre order Jamie. Absolutely preord Rod

899
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: by Jamie Loftus in You can also pre order Margaret's

900
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: book Escape from Insult Island just got a memorable title,

901
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: each Other's Plugs, Yeah, which actually Jolly wrote under my

902
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: name is kind of weird. Yeah, Julie, is there anything

903
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: that you would like Lukes just to know? Um, I am.

904
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: My next studio record is coming together. I am, and

905
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: it's going to be called Haunted Mountain. And my friend

906
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: Buck Meek, who's in Big Thief, is also putting out

907
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: a record called Haunted Mountain at the same time, which

908
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: I think is hilarious. And we we co wrote a

909
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: bunch of songs together and they sound a little like this.

910
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: Oh that's worth the shot. I was just trying to

911
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 1: put you on the spot. That reminds me of like

912
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: people in the airport it and they're like, you're gonna

913
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: gonna flue their guitar for us. Yeah, alright, it's where

914
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: the shot? And where can people follow you on socials?

915
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: Julie Holland Music on Instagram and Twitter? Awesome, We appreciate

916
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 1: you coming on. Yeah, thanks for thanks for having me.

917
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: It was great to get this storytelling about Isabel ever

918
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: Heart of Close And seriously, if you haven't heard it,

919
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: go check out the song old Fashioned morphine. It is

920
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 1: one of the best accepting that the world is doomed

921
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: and it's fine songs that exist. And it's possibly where

922
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: I first heard of Visible Our Heart and it's by

923
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: Julie Holland. I love your I love your analysis and

924
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 1: the song your artistic. You know that's all that. Yeah,

925
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: they like you know, the world's almost done. Whatever bucket.

926
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

927
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

928
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

929
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

930
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. M