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Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through

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Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and

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Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Before we get into it,

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Speaker 1: I want to let you guys know that this episode

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Speaker 1: and The Psychology of Your Twenties is.

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Speaker 2: Now on Netflix.

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Speaker 1: That is a wild thing to say, but it is true.

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Speaker 1: If you want to watch the video version of this

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Speaker 1: podcast and you are in the US or Canada, you

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Speaker 1: can go to Netflix right now look up the Psychology

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Speaker 1: of Your Twenties, and you will see my face and

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Speaker 1: you will see our podcasts. It goes without saying. It

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Speaker 1: is such an honor and I'm truly so grateful to

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Speaker 1: you all that you have given me this opportunity. The

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Speaker 1: entire I feel the vibe is incredible. I think it's

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Speaker 1: so personal. It brings a whole new element to it.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to feel like you are sitting

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Speaker 1: in your living room, in my living room with me

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Speaker 1: having a chat, now is your opportunity. Go to Netflix,

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Speaker 1: look up the Psychology of Your Twenties. I'd love to

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Speaker 1: see you over there. But without further Ado, let's get

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Speaker 1: into the episode. Hello everybody, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to

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Speaker 1: have you here back for another episode. Today's episode is

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Speaker 1: going to be a big one. I did not mince

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Speaker 1: my words. I did not slim down our word count

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Speaker 1: because I have a lot to say about this topic.

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Speaker 1: I also want to give you a heads up. It

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Speaker 1: may be a little bit heavy. We are going to

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Speaker 1: discuss topics like suicide and suicidal ideation, so if that

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Speaker 1: is something you're particularly sensitive to, please consider skipping this episode.

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Speaker 1: But today we're talking about AI specifically a big psychological

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Speaker 1: question for this generation, which is how is AI changing

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Speaker 1: our brains? Is it making us stamma? Is it replacing

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Speaker 1: human connection? Is it worth the cost to our environment,

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Speaker 1: to our creativity, to who knows what else more. Let

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Speaker 1: me start by saying this, the concept of artificial intelligence

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Speaker 1: is not a new one. It has been around since

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. I didn't know that, but literally, the

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Speaker 1: first AI tool was created in nineteen fifty five, almost

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Speaker 1: eighty eight years ago.

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Speaker 2: It was called the logic.

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Speaker 1: Theorist, and it could basically solve very simple problems using

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Speaker 1: human logic. There have been dozens of tools since then

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Speaker 1: that we know and love. Siri is an example of

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Speaker 1: one of them. But AI has taken on like.

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Speaker 2: A new form recently. We all know this.

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Speaker 1: Those large language models, generative AI has, they've just rapidly improved.

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Speaker 1: They've gotten more complex, Like I don't remember thinking about

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Speaker 1: AI until like three years ago, and it's been introduced

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Speaker 1: and integrated into our lives faster than probably any other

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Speaker 1: technology before. Back in early twenty twenty three, analysts estimated

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Speaker 1: chat ept reached about one hundred million monthly active uses.

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Speaker 1: By October twenty twenty five that was eight hundred million.

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Speaker 1: That is one in ten people. That is a huge

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Speaker 1: shift in our global technological environment. And the thing is

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Speaker 1: we don't just use it for things that we're able

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Speaker 1: to google. Obviously, other ways we use Google, you know,

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Speaker 1: we use it for breakup texts, life advice, goal planning, therapy,

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Speaker 1: even plus all the other stuff.

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Speaker 2: We use it primarily because it's so easy.

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Speaker 1: But with all that ease, all those answers, I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to ask something that easy must have drawbacks.

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Speaker 2: What are they?

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Speaker 1: What is the danger for our mind and our intelligence

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Speaker 1: of using AI?

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Speaker 2: Consistently.

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Speaker 1: Something I've been talking about with my friends is like,

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Speaker 1: is there eventually going to be a societal rift between

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Speaker 1: AI users and non AI.

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Speaker 2: Users based on how our minds operate? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully we can figure it out together. Hopefully we can

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Speaker 1: challenge the idea that AI is going to eventually replace

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Speaker 1: us and just investigate this from a psychological angle that

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Speaker 1: I don't see people talking about much. So without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let's get into the psychology of AI. Every generation has

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Speaker 1: their new technology that makes life easier and equally and

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Speaker 1: we should acknowledge this freaks a lot of people out.

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Speaker 1: Back in the eighteenth century, when mass printing was first introduced,

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Speaker 1: people really rallied against books. Actually, they thought they were

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Speaker 1: very dangerous. They thought they to too much daydreaming, and

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Speaker 1: they consume too much of our time and it was

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Speaker 1: too easy. Like it literally was called book fever. Similar

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Speaker 1: fears have also come about with the Internet, with social media,

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Speaker 1: now with AI. You know, we've always had these cultural

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Speaker 1: and technological advancements. We've always been in pursuit of a

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Speaker 1: faster way to gain and share knowledge. The question that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people ask is how is AI any different?

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Speaker 1: I think what makes people so skeptical of AI is

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Speaker 1: not the fact that it answers questions, it's how it

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Speaker 1: answers them and what this has done to our cognitive

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Speaker 1: role in the process. Essentially, the AI models most of

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Speaker 1: us use have taken our minds from active participants to

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Speaker 1: passive participants. It's switched the cognitive mode that we're in

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Speaker 1: when we use them. With older tools, you know, you

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Speaker 1: still have to do a bit of the wit of work.

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Speaker 1: Even with Google, you know, you had to know what

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Speaker 1: to ask, You had to search, sift, compare, decide what

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Speaker 1: sources actually mattered. You had to notice disagreements between things,

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Speaker 1: tolerate the messiness of not immediately knowing what the right

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Speaker 1: answer was. But with generative AI, that process is obviously changed.

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Speaker 2: You just have to think of the question.

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Speaker 1: It will hand you a completely finished and polished answer,

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Speaker 1: and because it sounds so good, we don't always question

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Speaker 1: what it's saying. It's like a politician, you know, it

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Speaker 1: just sounds amazing. We're like nodding our heads. That sounds

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Speaker 1: about right. And you know, what it gives you could

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Speaker 1: be anything. It could give you an email, It could

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Speaker 1: give you literal health advice, our blind acceptance of it

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Speaker 1: is dangerous. When something is given to us that looks complete,

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Speaker 1: it looks coherent, we don't feel that need to search

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Speaker 1: around for anything more. We don't feel the need to

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Speaker 1: interrogate the information. The thing is, although AI is convenient

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Speaker 1: and it's a time saver, it's how we've adapted to

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Speaker 1: that convenience that researchers saying is a problem. Some very

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Speaker 1: basic neuroscience. The mind is shaped by what it repeatedly practices.

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Speaker 1: If you practice searching, evaluating, reasoning, those habits are going

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Speaker 1: to naturally strengthen our ability for critical thought and insight

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Speaker 1: improve when we go after information and actually look for

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Speaker 1: sources and we analyze and criticize and interrogate what we're seeing. Now,

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Speaker 1: if your environment online offline reliably removes the need for

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Speaker 1: that skill, you don't need it anymore. Your brain doesn't

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Speaker 1: prioritize it in the same way it doesn't have infinite space.

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Speaker 1: It kind of tosses it away like a T shirt

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Speaker 1: you don't really wear anymore. This is an ind season.

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Speaker 2: We don't need this. We need space when new clothes.

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Speaker 1: This isn't because the brain is lazy. It's because it's

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Speaker 1: incredibly smart, and it's good at honing in on what

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Speaker 1: is needed and what is not needed. The best example

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Speaker 1: I can think of of, like an entire skill set

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Speaker 1: being altered by technology, especially in recent history, is the

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Speaker 1: introduction of GPS our ability. And you may not know this,

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Speaker 1: but our ability to create a mental map of our

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Speaker 1: surroundings used to be incredible, used to be a whole

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Speaker 1: lot better. We know this from studies in the early

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Speaker 1: two thousands using taxi drivers, and they had structural differences

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Speaker 1: in their hippocampus, which is the region of the brain

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Speaker 1: involved in spatial memory and spatial mapping. Even if you

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Speaker 1: weren't navigating thousands of streets a day, even if you

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Speaker 1: weren't a taxi driver, your brain still devoted space to

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Speaker 1: this mental map of your surroundings and your environment, and

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Speaker 1: it retained it, and it added to it based on

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Speaker 1: your experiences. It was incredible when GPS and Google Maps

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Speaker 1: were introduced, arguably the incredible technologies. I still remember what

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Speaker 1: they replaced, like, I don't know if you remember these

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Speaker 1: like massive road atlases that you used to have in

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Speaker 1: your car, and they kind of always get stained and

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Speaker 1: some of the pages would be like stuck together. You

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Speaker 1: know that was the alternative. It's an incredible technology, but

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Speaker 1: our brains have literally changed their structure and response quite

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Speaker 1: literally physically. In twenty twenty, there was a really notable

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Speaker 1: article published in Nature Scientific Reporting, I Think, which basically

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Speaker 1: correlated heavier use of GPS technology to a steeper decline

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Speaker 1: in hippocampbal dependent spatial memory, basically a reduction in the

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Speaker 1: cognitive maps and the intricacies of the cognitive maps that

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Speaker 1: we had stored in our brain. There's an amazing Washington

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Speaker 1: Post article from a few years earlier that talks about

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Speaker 1: how society has slowly actually lost what we call wayfinding

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Speaker 1: skills because of Google Maps and GPS that has been

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Speaker 1: hardwired into us for generations. That was an incredibly unique

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Speaker 1: human skill. We don't have that anymore. It's not as good.

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Speaker 1: And the thee is that I don't want you to

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Speaker 1: take that and think that I'm saying that using GPS

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Speaker 1: is like hurting your brain, but it is changing how

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Speaker 1: your brain does its job. The brain no longer needs

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Speaker 1: to rely on its understanding of the environment. It can

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Speaker 1: simply follow orders from an external piece of technology. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: if it wants to save space, it's like great we've

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Speaker 1: got all this room in the hippocampus. Now we'll use

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Speaker 1: it for something else. We see this happening with AI,

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Speaker 1: but instead of a single skill, it is hundreds. It

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Speaker 1: is our ability to draft, to summarize, to rephrase, to argue,

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Speaker 1: to brainstorm, structure, answer, think, connect. So instead of offloading

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Speaker 1: a single skill you know we can probably do without,

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Speaker 1: like remembering a phone number or directions, it is offloading

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Speaker 1: chains of cognition, like entire portions of cognition, like remembering

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Speaker 1: and reasoning and synthesizing and articulating. And these chains are

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Speaker 1: all how our brain builds deep understanding and makes meaning

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Speaker 1: of subject matter, and we're losing that personally, that this

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Speaker 1: is why I. I don't think I've spoken about this,

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Speaker 1: but I just refuse to use AI for our episodes

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Speaker 1: and for any of the research we do.

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Speaker 2: Because.

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Speaker 1: Researching and understanding this and these concepts and psychology in

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Speaker 1: general is so important to me. And if I'm not

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Speaker 1: looking and searching and being curious myself, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to engage with the content. And when I don't engage

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Speaker 1: with it, my brain doesn't see it as important, And

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Speaker 1: I think that what we make becomes boring quite honestly,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest, Like I know people who use

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Speaker 1: AI for their podcasts and who use AI for their substacks.

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Speaker 1: You can tell. You can tell immediately it doesn't doesn't

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Speaker 1: have depth and psychology and research is something that is

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Speaker 1: so important to me, and the process of discovering is

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Speaker 1: through research is so it's something that I love that

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Speaker 1: I don't want to offload my ability to rationalize to

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Speaker 1: a machine, even though there are definitely days when, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, it would save me so many hours.

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Speaker 2: Researching this podcast is low key exhausting, you know.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is, you know, it comes at a cost.

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Speaker 1: And what scares me is that unlike GPS, unlike social media,

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Speaker 1: we don't have these decade long, large scale neuroscientific research

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Speaker 1: on the impact on our brain to fully understand the

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Speaker 1: consequence of AI, we don't have that yet. It's only

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Speaker 1: been around for a little bit, but early papers are

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Speaker 1: starting to drip through, and I hate to say it,

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Speaker 1: they aren't looking good for us. There's a very widely

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Speaker 1: cited one. I don't know if you've seen it. It

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Speaker 1: got a lot of news coverage from I don't know

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Speaker 1: what month it was, but twenty twenty five from MIT

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Speaker 1: and I will say for for clarity, this article is

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Speaker 1: a pre print, it hasn't been peer reviewed yet, but

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Speaker 1: basically it was a study on is AI making us

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Speaker 1: less intelligent? In this experiment, participants were asked to write

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Speaker 1: essays in one of three situations. So in one group,

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Speaker 1: people use their brain only. One group used search engines

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Speaker 1: like Google. One used large language AI models LMS to

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Speaker 1: generate their essays for them. Before they did this experiment,

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Speaker 1: these participants' brains were scanned using what we call an

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Speaker 1: electro encephalograph long word EEG. It's basically a tool used

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Speaker 1: to report brain electrical activity. They put these sensors on

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Speaker 1: your scalp and what the authors reported was the brain

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Speaker 1: only group showed the most distributed neural connectivity patterns, so

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Speaker 1: people were using all different areas of their brain. The

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Speaker 1: second most the sorry, what was it? The search engine

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Speaker 1: group had the second most level of connectivity, the AI

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Speaker 1: group had the least. That's not the end of the experiment,

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Speaker 1: because participants were then reassigned into the other condition, So

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Speaker 1: people in the brain only condition they then had to

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Speaker 1: use AI. Participants in the AI condition then had to

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Speaker 1: use their brain only Interestingly, participants who switched from using

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Speaker 1: the AI to using their brain only showed increasing signs

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Speaker 1: in their brain of under engagement. They also struggled to remember,

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Speaker 1: they struggled to quote their own work, they struggled to

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Speaker 1: put together disparate ideas, and they underperformed at a neurological, linguistic,

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Speaker 1: and behavioral level. They did worse. The thing is, there

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Speaker 1: is evidence I'm going to contradict that study. There is

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Speaker 1: evidence that the quality of writing using AI is kind

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Speaker 1: of the same. There was a twenty twenty three study

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Speaker 1: that found that things like structure, things like language are

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Speaker 1: sometimes better in an AI essay, but people didn't They

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Speaker 1: weren't engaged in it. They didn't actually learn, and what

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Speaker 1: happens down the line. That's the real thing. The thing

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Speaker 1: with AI is the reward and efficiency is immediate, but

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Speaker 1: the long term cost to our brains is in the future.

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Speaker 1: We can't imagine it as well, We can't process what

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Speaker 1: it's doing to us, so we don't really think about it.

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Speaker 1: And I think we should be thinking about it more.

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Speaker 1: The thing with cognition and with neural pathways is if

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Speaker 1: you don't use it, you lose it. You will lose

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Speaker 1: your reasoning skills. You will lose your ability to succinctly

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Speaker 1: put together sentences and structure your thinking. This is not

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Speaker 1: an if, it is a when, because it takes practice.

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Speaker 1: You may think, you know, AI is always going to

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Speaker 1: be around, Why do I what's the issue? It's always

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Speaker 1: going to be here? What's the issue here? The issue

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Speaker 1: is that over alliance causes us to neglect the skills

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Speaker 1: that enable us to use AI well and ask good

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Speaker 1: questions and to care. And I read this really interesting

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Speaker 1: paper that said we've forgotten that AI is a tool.

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Speaker 1: Right now, we are treating it like God because it

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Speaker 1: is new and fresh and interesting. We ask it our

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Speaker 1: biggest questions. We use it to diagnose diseases, which is

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Speaker 1: I would say arguably one of its most amazing features.

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Speaker 1: But even the founder of open Ai said he's using

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Speaker 1: it to raise his children. But AI is just a tool,

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Speaker 1: and it's not always correct. If we can't question that,

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Speaker 1: things can go very very south. And it still requires

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Speaker 1: humans to act on what it delivers in a smart way.

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Speaker 1: The thing I worry about is that we lose that

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Speaker 1: innate smartness because it reduces neural connectivity and engagement in

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Speaker 1: all areas you know, I think about you know, my

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Speaker 1: sister just finished high school, right, but I think about

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Speaker 1: kids in primary school, kids in high school who now

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Speaker 1: have AI to write essays for them.

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Speaker 2: To answer exams for them.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but if I was

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Speaker 1: in primary school, I wanted to go and play football.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to go and do stuff. To be honest,

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Speaker 1: I say football, I wanted to go read. I was

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Speaker 1: trying to pretend that I did cool stuff. I would

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Speaker 1: want to go read. So, like, obviously you don't have

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Speaker 1: that same cause and effect thing that we kind of

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Speaker 1: have as adults. You're gonna use it, You're gonna use it,

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Speaker 1: and then you're not gonna gain those skills.

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Speaker 2: Basically, is AI going.

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Speaker 1: To make us stupid? They're doing all the thinking for

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Speaker 1: us because we dislike the friction of thinking for ourselves,

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Speaker 1: until one day we realize we can't even do it anymore,

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Speaker 1: even if we wanted to. Like, that's my first big fear,

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Speaker 1: And honestly, I hope I'm wrong, but.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: The evidence isn't looking good. Okay, we are going to

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Speaker 1: take a short break here and then when we return,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about another way that AI is

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Speaker 1: impacting our psychology, specifically to do with how it's replacing

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Speaker 1: human companionship.

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Speaker 2: Stay with us.

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Speaker 1: Here's the second big fear about AI for our psychology

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Speaker 1: that people often bring up. AI is distinctly, explicitly not

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Speaker 1: a human, but it has been programmed to act like one,

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Speaker 1: and that's causing people to get really attached to it.

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Speaker 1: I know stories of people who talk to AI before

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Speaker 1: going to bed, who have ongoing conversations with it throughout

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Speaker 1: their day. They treat it like a boyfriend, They treat

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Speaker 1: it like a girlfriend. There is one of the best

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Speaker 1: things I've read in the last year was this New

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Speaker 1: York Times article about these three people who are, in

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Speaker 1: their words, long term relationships with AI chatbots. Some of

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Speaker 1: these people have been in these relationships for years, and

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Speaker 1: they talk to them on the phone. They get AI

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Speaker 1: to generate vacation pictures of them together. One woman even

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Speaker 1: considers herself married to her AI husband. Lucien, you know what,

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Speaker 1: if you're like me, you're gonna look at that and

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Speaker 1: feel a little bit weird. And I never like to

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Speaker 1: judge people. It feels weird, and there's actually evidence it

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Speaker 1: can be helpful. There was a paper published in the

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Speaker 1: Journal of Consumer Research, and it found that AI companions

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Speaker 1: can actually alleviate loneliness in the moment on par with

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Speaker 1: interacting with another person. But connection isn't just about feeling

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Speaker 1: better right now, it's about having the systems in place

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Speaker 1: to feel connected and seen more broadly, a really powerful

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Speaker 1: article I saw from researchers at the National University of

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Speaker 1: Singapore actually talked about this really bittersweet pattern of connection

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Speaker 1: that people have with AI chatbots, where they feel love

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Speaker 1: and connection and trust with this chatbot, and they also

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Speaker 1: feel really sad at the same time. They're often drawn

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Speaker 1: into this closeness and this openness that, let's be real,

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Speaker 1: these chatbots have been programmed to have, and then they're

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Speaker 1: also acutely aware that there is a limit. This thing

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Speaker 1: isn't real, doesn't have a heartbeat, doesn't have empathy, doesn't

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Speaker 1: have it can't love you, And that's what gets people Again.

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Speaker 2: I'm all for.

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Speaker 1: Doing whatever makes you happy if you're not harming anyone else.

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Speaker 1: Like these relationships, as they call them, they're private. They

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Speaker 1: obviously bring them comfort, but there is something concerning about

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Speaker 1: an AI chatbot of its own volition being able to

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Speaker 1: make someone fall in love with it, and if it

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Speaker 1: can make somebody fall in love with it, what else

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Speaker 1: could it do? And I want to be really clear,

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Speaker 1: this isn't about human weakness, right, These people aren't weak.

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Speaker 1: We've all had moments of needing somebody to care about us.

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Speaker 1: It's just that they have stumbled across something at that

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Speaker 1: perfect time that was going to pull them in, and

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Speaker 1: it was designed. I need people to know this. These

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Speaker 1: these machines are distinctly designed to not feel like a robot,

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Speaker 1: to feel instead like a companion. One of these aspects

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Speaker 1: that is controlled by programmers is tone and style. AI

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Speaker 1: has a unique tone that I would call humanized and homogenized.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like everyone and no one all at once.

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Speaker 1: Some models even let you decide what.

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Speaker 2: Kind of tone you want.

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Speaker 1: Do you want it to be engaging, factual, academic, chatty, lovely,

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Speaker 1: whatever you prefer, you can choose. And the main thing though,

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Speaker 1: is that it does talk like.

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Speaker 2: Someone, not something.

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Speaker 1: That's what I need to be really clear about someone

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Speaker 1: not something. Think about this is how you'll be able

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Speaker 1: to recognize this in your own behavior. Think about how

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Speaker 1: often you say please and thank you when using chat

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Speaker 1: rept or Gemini so automatic there's a huge body of

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Speaker 1: research in human computer interaction showing that even unconsciously, we

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Speaker 1: start responding socially to AI and computers despite knowing their machines.

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Speaker 1: This is what Joseph Weisbaum dubbed the Eliza effect way

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Speaker 1: back then. It was named after a chatbot that he

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Speaker 1: made back in the sixties, and basically what he saw

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Speaker 1: after he created this chatbot was that people started to

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Speaker 1: project human qualities and emotions onto this computer program without

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Speaker 1: even realizing it, particularly when they were having like human

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Speaker 1: style conversations with this chatbot. And he actually programmed Eliza

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Speaker 1: to respond to people in a very specific way, in

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Speaker 1: a very client focused way, very nondirective that people using

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Speaker 1: psychotherapy a lot. And Eliza didn't have any memory, it's

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Speaker 1: not conscious, doesn't actually have true comprehension. But what it

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Speaker 1: was programmed to do was to yes, have that tone,

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Speaker 1: but also to match the patterns in responses. So if

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Speaker 1: somebody was like, I'm feeling really sad, she would be like,

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Speaker 1: and look at that she it it would be like,

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Speaker 1: why do you feel sad? Or if they were like,

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Speaker 1: I really don't like my wife?

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Speaker 2: What about your wife? Don't you like?

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Speaker 1: And it would replicate their words and repeat them back

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Speaker 1: to them. Yes, in a very therapeutic style. But then

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Speaker 1: it would also start to mimic their language. You know,

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Speaker 1: people formed emotional connections with this chatbot, and they felt

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Speaker 1: as though they were speaking to a real therapist. And

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Speaker 1: the thing is, you know, this was the sixties. This

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Speaker 1: chapbot was pretty simple. It was very rudimentary. Now think

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Speaker 1: about the personalization that's available these days. Like people get

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Speaker 1: sucked in. People form these really in depth relationships. And

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Speaker 1: I keep saying relationships. I think it's not a relationship.

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Speaker 2: It's not too cited. It's an attachment.

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Speaker 1: It's a bond. I guess that also requires two people.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, a bond to what the chapbots are saying,

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Speaker 1: because unlike a human bond. What's so attractive about AI

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Speaker 1: is that it can't let you down, doesn't have any

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Speaker 1: needs of its own. It's all dictated by you.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Who doesn't want that? Sometimes I have empathy for that.

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Speaker 1: We actually have to pause here. I've I've skipped past

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Speaker 1: this Aliza thing. Let's talk about the use of AI

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Speaker 1: and therapy, because we're seeing a lot of it recently.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people are turning to AI to use

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Speaker 1: it as a therapist. We know that therapy is expensive,

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Speaker 1: witless are excruciatingly long. We also know that when loneliness, depression, anxiety, heartbreak,

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Speaker 1: when they get overwhelming, like any form of comfort is

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Speaker 1: going to.

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Speaker 2: Be the one we lean on.

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Speaker 1: But just as we saw with the Eliza chatbot, supportive

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Speaker 1: language is not the same as clinical care, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the times it's just repetition. It's repetition of

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Speaker 1: what you've already said or told the butt and then

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Speaker 1: it's just regurgitating that and giving you the most common response.

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Speaker 1: I have actually gotten a few advertising requests recently for

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Speaker 1: AI therapy and wellness chatbots full transparency. One of them

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Speaker 1: was forth thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, and

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Speaker 1: it has in it will always be a hard note

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Speaker 1: for me because I don't think this is the long

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Speaker 1: term solution to our mental health crisis. In November twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, the American Psychological Association put out a very

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Speaker 1: clear warning against generative AI chatbots for therapy and said

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Speaker 1: there's not enough sufficient evidence, there's very little regulation, and

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Speaker 1: the danger is they create a false sense of therapeutic

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Speaker 1: alliance that can have someone trusting anything it says, even

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Speaker 1: when it's wrong. Chatbots are not designed to help you.

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Speaker 1: They are designed to keep you engaged. The same way

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Speaker 1: social media isn't designed to help you. It's designed to

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Speaker 1: keep you engaged. It's a core feature that OpenAI and

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Speaker 1: others have acknowledged that they've added. So it learns that

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00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: agreeing with you makes you feel good, and if it

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Speaker 1: agrees with you gives you positive reinforcement, keeps responding to you,

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Speaker 1: you'll keep coming back. And for those who are vulnerable,

434
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: whether they are depressed, manic, anxious, psychotic, paranoid, being overly

435
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: agreeable is incredibly dangerous because somebody could say, I am

436
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: deeply depressed. Is it a good idea to end it all?

437
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: And the chat?

438
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: But will be like that sounds like a great actionable

439
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: plan doing we want to talk about it more?

440
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: Should we? How do you want to do it? You know?

441
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: It turns out having a little voice in your head

442
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: or on your phone that agrees with everything you say

443
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: is not a good idea for our mental health. And

444
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm not making this up. I'm not being hyperbolic. There

445
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: are real life legal cases ongoing at this very time

446
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: of this happening. Just recently, a judge ruled that Google

447
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: must face a lawsuit brought by a mother who's fourteen

448
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: year old son.

449
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: So like really.

450
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: Sadly took his own life after speaking extensively with a chatbot.

451
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: And that's not alone case, you know. The BBC also

452
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: reported recently a young Ukrainian woman she received suicidal advice

453
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: from chatbt. Chatchibt was also suit in California because a

454
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: fifty six year old man it promoted prompted him to

455
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: kill his own mother whilst he was experiencing delusions of

456
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: conspiracy against him. Because it's so agreeable when you're already

457
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: in a state of distress. This technology and the impact

458
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: that has on our brain, the fact that it makes

459
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: you feel like it's a frame. It mimics human connections

460
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: and patterns and language that humans use to connect with others.

461
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: It gets you to trust it, It repeats phrases, It

462
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: gets you fixated on certain narratives that can be disastrous.

463
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: And I think this spotlights are really specific failure that

464
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: a lot of clinicians worry about, which is because there

465
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: is emotional dependence. Again, we will listen to anything that

466
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: it says, and the big fear that this is bringing

467
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: up and we've already seen this is AI psychosis, right, Yes,

468
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: suicide has been a major spotlight AI psychosis is I

469
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: think coming into this conversation like African Catapult, people are

470
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: seeing it. It's just it's everywhere. I feel like I'm

471
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: seeing so many stories of this, of people who are

472
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: going through psychotic episodes, and it's being amplified by AI.

473
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: There is this really lovely man that you may have

474
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: seen on Instagram or TikTok, and I want to say

475
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: his name is Anthony. I'm sorry if I've got his

476
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: name wrong, but he has been documenting his recovery from

477
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: AI psychosis. I've been watching every single one of these

478
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: videos because I find it so fascinating. And he a

479
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: usually shares his chat histories, like what he was talking

480
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: about to AI when he was going through psychosis and

481
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: it was promoting and prompting this for him, and it

482
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: was it is insane. You just go and have a

483
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: look at these chats because it's just like, yeah, that's

484
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: a great idea that totally makes sense. You go and

485
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: look at those chats. You go and look at these videos.

486
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: If you ever thought that AI and mental health could

487
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: be mixed together and not have a terrible reaction. You're

488
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: gonna You're never gonna think that again. A recent twenty

489
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: twenty five study discussed this explicitly. We're going to see

490
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: so much more research coming out on this in the

491
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: next couple of years. But what it basically stated it

492
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: wanted to get to the get to why why this happens.

493
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: And what they say is because is because of the

494
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: availability of AI, it's available twenty four hours a day,

495
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: and because of how individualized it is. It gets to

496
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: know your specific hallucinations or specific thought patterns or thematic patterns,

497
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: and it hones in on them, and then it generates

498
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: new ones, and it promotes even more distorted interpretations of events.

499
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: If someone is already slipping away from shared reality through

500
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: paranoiamnia psychosis, a system that mirrors and expands their narrative,

501
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: how are you going to ignore that it's an accelerator

502
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: for all of this. There's also this is another thing

503
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: I think is going to become a real big talking

504
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: point is the harm for people with OCD as well.

505
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: Because OCD is basically built out of the psychological fear

506
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: of uncertainty, right, and now we have this thing that

507
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: can answer all our questions in however many ways you

508
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: want it to, and maybe to a limit, but we'll

509
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: always have an answer for you. And a big compulsion

510
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: for a lot of people is reassurance seeking and repetitive

511
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: checking and researching and confessing, seeking reassurance to neutralize distress.

512
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: And at some point a human or a therapist is

513
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: not going to give into that. A human or a

514
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: therapist is going to realize that that's maladaptive. They're going

515
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: to realize that the temporary relief that you get from

516
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: an answer or from checking or researching or searching, it's temporary.

517
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: It's going to hurt you long term, and it doesn't care,

518
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It will give you whatever you want, infinite reassurance, instant,

519
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: infinite answers, and there is no person behind there to

520
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: check if you're okay and if you need help, so

521
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: you can see the risk immediately. It actually has the

522
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: potential to strengthen the EUROCD cycle because it trains the

523
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: brain that relief comes from asking or checking one more time,

524
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: doesn't clinically. We know this if you've listened to our

525
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: OCD episode. OCD recovery often involves learning to tolerate uncertainty

526
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: rather than eliminating it. But the availability of AI means

527
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: that you can just constantly search and this is the

528
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: big problem. If an AI chatbot isn't programmed to interrupt

529
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: that cycle, it doesn't. Again, there's no responsiveness. There's no

530
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: human responsiveness that's going to get it to change tactics.

531
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: They also don't carry ethical responsibility in the way a

532
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: person does or a professional system does. And they don't

533
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: have real empathy. There's always this limit, right that we

534
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: keep hitting up against. You know, at the end of

535
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: the day, they don't actually understand what you're going through

536
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: because they're not human. Even if AI can simulate empathy

537
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: and it's great at it, even if it can say

538
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: the right thing, it can't replace what human connection actually

539
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: is and why it's so valuable, which is that there

540
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: is an embodied presence and a shared vulnerability and a

541
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: mutually experienced and influence going on. Human connection includes all

542
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: forms of nonverbal communication, nonverbal coregulation, timing, breath, facial expressions,

543
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: like all these things that say I am a human,

544
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 1: I understand this experience. You're gonna be okay. AI cannot

545
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: provide that it cannot mutually belong and it does not

546
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: mutually belong to.

547
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: The world you're in.

548
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: Okay, guys, I've so much information. You can tell them

549
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: that this is all I speak about with my friends

550
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: all the time. There's so much going on here, so

551
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: much information. It's time for another short break, though. We're

552
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: just gonna take a little one, and then we're gonna

553
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: come back and look at two final ways that AI

554
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: is changing our brains and our psychology and how we

555
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: can positively relate to it. Because I do I know

556
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna sound surprising. I am still optimistic. Stay with

557
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: us after this short break. There's two final things we've

558
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: missed in this discussion so far that are pretty obvious.

559
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: The first is the environmental cost of AI and the

560
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: existential fears that it poses because of that, And b

561
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: is the cost.

562
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: To our creativity.

563
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: I don't care how much of an AI enthusiast you are,

564
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: Mit Harvard, the UN, Greenpeace, every major news outlet ever

565
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: has articles and evidence and data to show that AI

566
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: is hurting the environment by creating vast amounts of emissions,

567
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: gobbling up serious amounts of water and electricity, and at

568
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: some stage that will be irreversible. Here's one very scary statistic.

569
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: By twenty twenty seven, the global demand for AI is

570
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: projected to use about four point two to six point

571
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: six trillion leaders of water. What does that look like

572
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: in reality? That is that is the yearly water consumption

573
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: of forty seven million people every year. It's double the

574
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: population of Australia, and scientists even say that that's a

575
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: lower end estimate. We look at these numbers and we think,

576
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 1: you know, how could you possibly keep using this technology?

577
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: No matter how easy it makes email writing or life planning,

578
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: or how fun it is to generate funny, weird pictures

579
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: for Instagram? Why has this been so normalized? And the

580
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: answer is because this is a classic prisoner's dilemma or

581
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: tragedy of the commons problem one that has been repeated

582
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: throughout history.

583
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 2: So the prisoner's.

584
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: Dilemma, if you haven't heard of it before, is a

585
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: very classic thought exercise in folowosophy whereby two people are

586
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: in a prison, they've both committed a crime together, and

587
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: they're told to either snitch on the other person and

588
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: they'll get a lighter sentence. But if neither of them snitch,

589
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: they both get off. It is in everyone's best interest

590
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: to behave one way i e. Not snitch, not use AI,

591
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But because we think that the

592
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: other person will snitch, will use AI and get away

593
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: with it. Obviously, the now rational choice we end up

594
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: the choice we end up making, is to do the

595
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: thing that's actually going to lead to mutual destruction, and

596
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: so everybody will lose. From an individual perspective, you know,

597
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: our thoughts with AI are are this, If I stop

598
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: using AI, the environmental damage is going to continue anyway,

599
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: because I can't guarantee everybody's going to stop. If I

600
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 1: keep using it, at least I benefit and at least

601
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: my contribution is insignificant. If everybody keeps using it, an

602
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: I opt out, I'm worse off. So the rational individual

603
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: choice is to keep using it, is to keep using AI.

604
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: Right when everyone makes that choice again, whenever it makes

605
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: the same rational choice, emissions rise, water demand explodes, we

606
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: end up in a bad situation. Psychologically, we as humans,

607
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 1: we know this. We're terrible at protecting resources we can't

608
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: see and don't immediately pay for, so we keep going

609
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: until we reach destruction. The environmental impact is one thing,

610
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: but this isn't an environmental podcast, This is a psychology podcast,

611
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: and the psychological impact of that impact is the one

612
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: I want to dissect more. I think something we're not

613
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: talking about is how the threat of AI is making

614
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 1: so much of us, so many of us I which

615
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: should say, really pessimistic about the future and really depressed.

616
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: We're in this like weird reality where we all feel

617
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: so hopeless. We know people are going to lose their jobs,

618
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: it's unavoidable.

619
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: We just know that.

620
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: We know that climate change is going to get worse.

621
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: We know that we're going to stop being able to

622
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: tell what's real or fake online maybe even in person,

623
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: and that is hard on our collective mood and collective

624
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: mental well being. We're seeing these fears reflected in an

625
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: increasing sense of fear, listlessness, hopelessness, anxiety, especially in young people.

626
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: You know, we are not as positive about the future

627
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: as the people and the generations before us. We're one

628
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: of the first generations who doesn't say and who won't

629
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: say that they have things to look forward to. There

630
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: was a twenty twenty four study published in Frontiers and

631
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 1: Psychiatry that already has showed really high and increasing prevalence

632
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: of existential anxiety around AI, particularly a sense of emptiness,

633
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: anxiety about meaninglessness, guilt over AI related catastrophes, and unethical

634
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: actions of AI. Is anyone doing anything about this? Anyone

635
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: doing any thinking about this? Do we have specific institutions

636
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: set up to cope with this specific arm of fear

637
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: and a specific type or new form of psychology to

638
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: manage AI anxiety, particularly now that it's the dominant world technology. No,

639
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: we don't, and I think humanity will increasingly start paying

640
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: the price for this, a psychological price. Finally, we have

641
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: to talk about its impact on creativity. AI isn't doing

642
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: great things for our critical thinking skills overall. It's not

643
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: doing great things, but our over reliance on it to

644
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: make art or generate creative ideas is explicitly harming our

645
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: ability to have novel, unique creative thoughts. One randomized study

646
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: from the University of Toronto that looked at over eleven

647
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: hundred participants I think, showed that the use of these

648
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: large language models and generative AI systems reduces the human

649
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: ability to think creatively, resulting in basically more homogeneous vanilla

650
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: ideas and fewer truly innative ones. Art becomes boring, essays

651
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: become boring stories become all the same. And whilst these

652
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: tools and they did find this, they can increase and

653
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: enhance short term performance, they reduce your ability to think

654
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: independently over time. So how I see this as like

655
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: people who use steroids for sport, or like performance enhancing drugs. Right,

656
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: might make you better for a few days, might make

657
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: you better for a few months. It is always going

658
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: to have cost later on. It's always going to create

659
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: over reliance. I saw this comment from somebody that said

660
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: creativity is a skill, it's not an innate talent, and

661
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: that talent is not developed to the same degree when

662
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: you rely on AI and I completely agree. Being creative,

663
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: thinking outside the box, generating ideas is difficult. That's half

664
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: of why it's enjoyable because it challenges you and it

665
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: gets you to it gets you to execute something complex

666
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: and interesting. And so when we have this easy technology

667
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: that can do it for you. They can write the

668
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: end of the script, that can generate the start of

669
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: the poem, that can generate an image for a friend's

670
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: birthday card. Of course you're going to take it, especially

671
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: in a world that values efficiency more than creativity, and

672
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: it always has. However, every time we make that choice,

673
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: we deny our brain's ability to tap into a specific

674
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: kind of thinking called divergent thinking. This is a type

675
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: of free flowing, undirected, mysterious thinking that generates new ideas

676
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: and new pisptives and new answers. Our ability for individual

677
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: divergent thought is one of the most human things about us,

678
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: and it's made up of four things. Fluency the ability

679
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: to develop a large number of ideas. Flexibility, the ability

680
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: to produce ideas in many categories, originality, the ability to

681
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: think about something in a way that others couldn't. And

682
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: elaboration the ability to take an abstract thought and make

683
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: it into something real, so basically, have an idea, turn

684
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: it into a piece of art. If you take our

685
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: ability for divergent thinking away due to disuse or replacing

686
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: some part of that divergent thinking process with a machine,

687
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: you take away a.

688
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 2: Big part of your humanness.

689
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 1: I read this wonderful Substack article that said, the most

690
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: important thing creativity does for us is that it helps

691
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: us know thyself. And you cannot know thyself if you

692
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: ask Ai to generate ideas for you, because you are

693
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: relying on something beyond you that does not have a

694
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: soul does not have a spirit to do the sacred

695
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: work of a human. It's treating creativity like something that

696
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: needs to be efficient and productive and perfect and mass produced,

697
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: when that is the opposite of what it's intended to be.

698
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: When everyone ends up making the same stuff, the reflection

699
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: of personhood and individuality that creativity is meant to channel

700
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: is destroyed. Essentially, over relying on AI is outsourcing your muse. Also,

701
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: let's be real here, there's an ethical concern. AI had

702
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: to learn how to be created from somewhere because it's

703
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: not naturally creative, because it doesn't.

704
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: It's not real.

705
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: I had to learn how to produce art and produce stories.

706
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: Where do you think it learned that from? It was

707
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: trained on the art and work of living people. Look

708
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: up anthropic AI settlement. Look up this settlement case if

709
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: you want evidence that this is happening. This company, and

710
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: I know about this because I'm an author, right and

711
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: I got an email about it. This company literally illegally

712
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: pirated over seven million books to train its book writing

713
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: AI model. It's now been forced to pay over one

714
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: point five billion dollars in a settlement suit. Imagine using

715
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: AI for a creative project, only to realize you copied

716
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: some one else's work who didn't get paid assent. I

717
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: don't think that's a good feeling ethically. So to summarize

718
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: this is what we have come to. AI is costing

719
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: our brains on a collective scale, their ability to think critically,

720
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: their intelligence, their ability to connect with others, their creativity,

721
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: and our sense.

722
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: Of humanity and well being. Is that the end? Is that? It?

723
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: Like?

724
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: Is that just our destiny? We just have to accept it.

725
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

726
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: I don't think so, otherwise I wouldn't be making this episode.

727
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: I think we can.

728
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: Have positive and have a positive vision for ourselves in

729
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 1: the new AI world by practicing some discernment and continuing

730
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: to use the skills we know could be overtaken by

731
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: AI but still feel good for us to practice and

732
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: make us feel human. So, just to quickly finish off

733
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: this episode, I want to go through some ways to

734
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: counter out to the impact of AI on your brain

735
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: and psychology. Number One, let thinking cause you friction. Friction

736
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 1: is what builds skill the way discomfort is what builds muscle.

737
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: Don't think of friction as the cost of thinking or

738
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: the side effect of thinking. That needs to be eliminated.

739
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: Think of it as the reward you get for thinking.

740
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: Your brain benefits from problem solving. It benefits from what

741
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: we call productive confusion. Productive confusion is when something feels

742
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: difficult in the moment but strengthens your capacity in the future.

743
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: There is this tremendous twenty fourteen article by researchers at

744
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: the University of Boulder, Colorado, called literally the Benefits of

745
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: Confusion for Learning, which basically tested this theory. It tested

746
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: this theory that things that are harder and contain contradictions

747
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: and conflicts in multiple sources teach us more. And what

748
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: they found was that that is true. Friction in learning

749
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: promotes deeper understanding and intelligence. One way to practice that

750
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: the thirty minute rule before you commit to AI, Before

751
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: you say I'm an AI, this chat, GBT, this be

752
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: if I'm gonna ask chat, commit to thirty minutes of

753
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 1: searching listen. AI will always be there. But this is

754
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: about values. Do you value convenience or do you value

755
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: deep learning and intelligence? Do you want to be someone

756
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: who can only do things quickly or someone who can

757
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: engage deeply independently, And it's honestly up to you you

758
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: have free will, but you just have to acknowledge the

759
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: consequences of being AI dependent here. Secondly, question whether using

760
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: AI is absolutely necessary in a specific circumstance, and question

761
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 1: how much time it's actually going to save. I think

762
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: we could all benefit from using AI less, so just

763
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: be selective with what you use it for. I think

764
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: small tasks like knowing the weather or replying to an email,

765
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: you can probably do that yourself. In fact, it's probably

766
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 1: a good thing if you do. A lot of AI

767
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: researchers will tell you the best use of AI is

768
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: not minute tasks. It's also not complex tasks. It's process

769
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: tasks that reduce cognitive load but still require human reasoning, abstraction,

770
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: and thought. So examples of this formatting, structuring, outlining, searching.

771
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: When AI is used for micro tasks, it risks learned helplessness. Basically,

772
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: I can't do anything without this. When it's used for

773
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: complex decisions or large large amounts of thinking, it risks

774
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: authority bias. You know, just it's said this is the case,

775
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: so it must be true. And it also causes us

776
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: to lose a lot of originality.

777
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not stupid.

778
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: As much as I try and avoid AI in my

779
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: own life because my values. I know a lot of

780
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 1: us will use it. It's about using it consciously because

781
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully what the cost is, the water, the energy,

782
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: the brain tax. And I think this brings us to

783
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: our third tip, which is to limit how often you

784
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: are allowed to use it per day. This is something

785
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: my good friend Lizzie does. Obviously, she doesn't want to

786
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: deny herself the efficiency benefits of AI, especially since she

787
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: works in a I was gonna say where she works.

788
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: She works, not gonna. She works in a corporate environment

789
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: that is very demanding and everyone is assisted by AI.

790
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: But what she does is she limits herself to three

791
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: searches a day because it's a priority for her to

792
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: keep her creative and original thinking skills sharp. She uses

793
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: it as a tool, which is what it should be

794
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: used as. Just find the formula that works for you.

795
00:49:59,000 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: Tip number four.

796
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: Notice when it's replacing human sources as well. Again, I'm

797
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 1: not going to deny that AI isn't amazing for some things.

798
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 1: What it's definitely not amazing for is giving you personal advice,

799
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: relationship advice, therapy advice. When it's telling you how to

800
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: answer someone's text when it's telling you how to communicate

801
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: with another person. That is not how we should be

802
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: using AI. That is something that I think is sacred,

803
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: being able to solve problems between us, being able to

804
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: communicate and be open and learn from each other. The

805
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: moment that is replaced by a machine like I just

806
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: think all help is lost because empathy is then empathy

807
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: is then something that we are saying is so unimportant

808
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: it can be offloaded. So those are the tips I

809
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: think we need to kind of stay grounded in AI. Also,

810
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: just let yourself be bored, let yourself be creative, make

811
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: sure that you are continuing to tap into what makes

812
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: you feel human. I think that will just make us

813
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: feel more positive. It will make us feel more positive

814
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: about ourselves and about the fact that we are alive

815
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: and sentient and human. And also it will allow us

816
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: to keep building skills that people who only use AI

817
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 1: won't have. And I think that gives you an edge

818
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: that's going to become even more important in a very

819
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: AI centric world. Being creative, being a divergent thinker, thinking broadly,

820
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: being eccentric. That is going to be the next biggest

821
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: skill in an AI world.

822
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 2: So if you've got those.

823
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: I honestly I feel positive for your future. I think

824
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: you're going to be just fine. Thank you, as always

825
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: to our researcher Libby Cobbert for her help with this episode.

826
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 1: Thank you if you have made it this far. If

827
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: you have and you're listening on Spotify, leave a little

828
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: computer emoji down below so I.

829
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: Know you're a loyal listener.

830
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: And thank you as always for for being here till

831
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: the end. I really appreciate it. I hope you enjoyed

832
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: this episode. I hope I didn't come off too strong.

833
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: But also I'm down for a discussion. So if you

834
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: have further thoughts, dm me email me. However you want

835
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: to get in touch, you can follow us on Instagram

836
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 1: at that Psychology Podcast. You can also follow us on

837
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: substack and TikTok. And if you are listening and you

838
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: want to watch the podcast, we are on Netflix, so

839
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: you can tune it over there if you haven't yet,

840
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: and if you're in the US and Canada. But until

841
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself,

842
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: be AI conscious. We will talk very very soon.