1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:22,916 Speaker 1: Push it. I mean, I know that Finland and Norway exist, 2 00:00:23,396 --> 00:00:25,676 Speaker 1: you know, like I see them like in the Olympics 3 00:00:25,676 --> 00:00:27,756 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, they would have a hockey team 4 00:00:27,836 --> 00:00:31,676 Speaker 1: or something, or like skaters or like you know, downhill skiers. 5 00:00:32,196 --> 00:00:35,836 Speaker 1: But as places, it never even like entered my mind 6 00:00:35,876 --> 00:00:38,356 Speaker 1: to go them, like as a place to desire to go, 7 00:00:38,636 --> 00:00:41,316 Speaker 1: like it just never even entered my thoughts, like someday 8 00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:44,276 Speaker 1: I wish I would go to Helsinki like that. I 9 00:00:44,396 --> 00:00:46,476 Speaker 1: never said that sentence or thought it in any way. 10 00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 1: And to fly to fly through Iceland, you know, in 11 00:00:51,076 --> 00:00:53,396 Speaker 1: land in Iceland and be like Iceland, and then to 12 00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:57,476 Speaker 1: go on to Helsinki, it just was there was something 13 00:00:58,036 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: for me amazing about it. But then I was with 14 00:01:00,516 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: these other people who were like Ben, I gotta tell you, 15 00:01:04,036 --> 00:01:06,836 Speaker 1: I got out of prison last year on a life sentence, 16 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:10,476 Speaker 1: and I thought I would ever leave a cell, let 17 00:01:10,476 --> 00:01:15,076 Speaker 1: alone leave the country. And here I am in Helsinki, 18 00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:19,356 Speaker 1: like here I am traveling the world like that was 19 00:01:19,516 --> 00:01:33,396 Speaker 1: that was crazy powerful. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad and I'm 20 00:01:33,396 --> 00:01:37,836 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white. 21 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 1: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is 22 00:01:41,636 --> 00:01:44,676 Speaker 1: some of my best friends are dot dot dot dot 23 00:01:44,716 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 1: dot dot. In this show, we wrestle with the challenges 24 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:54,196 Speaker 1: and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. Yep. 25 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:57,676 Speaker 1: And and and today we're talking about some deep divides 26 00:01:57,716 --> 00:02:01,596 Speaker 1: and some inequality for real, real though. Yeah, but but 27 00:02:01,676 --> 00:02:03,916 Speaker 1: there's hope, right, because we've got to see what it 28 00:02:03,916 --> 00:02:06,436 Speaker 1: looks like on the other side of change. Yeah, We're 29 00:02:06,436 --> 00:02:10,116 Speaker 1: gonna see what prisons look like in other countries, in 30 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:25,796 Speaker 1: other countries, not ours. So so you might remember, man 31 00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: that before you and on that trip, I called you 32 00:02:30,636 --> 00:02:34,836 Speaker 1: up because I'd gotten an email from Impact Justice. All right, 33 00:02:34,876 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: hold up. So Impact Justice works on criminal justice reforms. 34 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:41,276 Speaker 1: They're in the Bay Area and they were organizing a 35 00:02:41,276 --> 00:02:44,276 Speaker 1: trip to go see prisons in Europe. Yep. That's right, 36 00:02:44,396 --> 00:02:48,516 Speaker 1: like basically saying, you know, we're taking this trip to 37 00:02:48,676 --> 00:02:52,876 Speaker 1: Norway and we would love you to join the trip 38 00:02:53,156 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: as a writer to help chronicle what we see. Yeah, 39 00:02:57,396 --> 00:03:00,156 Speaker 1: and uh, And of course I was very flattered by that, 40 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,556 Speaker 1: but I also was thinking, this isn't a good time 41 00:03:03,596 --> 00:03:07,676 Speaker 1: for me, and to be frank, I can think of 42 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:10,636 Speaker 1: another person who would be better for this I thought 43 00:03:10,636 --> 00:03:14,276 Speaker 1: about you, not only because you are actually a professional journalist, 44 00:03:14,916 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 1: but you were also working on this book on corrections, 45 00:03:18,556 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 1: and as your best friend, I thought to myself, this 46 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:25,876 Speaker 1: would be perfect for Ben to see something outside the 47 00:03:26,476 --> 00:03:29,476 Speaker 1: United States. So I called you up and you know, 48 00:03:29,596 --> 00:03:32,716 Speaker 1: told you about it, and to my delight, you were 49 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:35,076 Speaker 1: in Oh yeah, it didn't It didn't take much convincing. 50 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:38,796 Speaker 1: The moment you said it, I was ecstatic. So yeah, yeah, yeah, 51 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 1: I know you've been waiting for this. Thank you, Thank 52 00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:46,156 Speaker 1: you for recommending me. I owe you, I owe you. Yeah, 53 00:03:46,196 --> 00:03:47,836 Speaker 1: And I had to I had to wear like a 54 00:03:47,916 --> 00:03:52,876 Speaker 1: name tag that said Khalil recommended me. Yeah, so you're 55 00:03:52,956 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 1: you're acting all like my benefactor. But you went on 56 00:03:56,716 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 1: one of these trips already. You went to Germany and 57 00:03:59,396 --> 00:04:01,956 Speaker 1: saw prisons there, right, just a couple of years before. Yeah, 58 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:05,076 Speaker 1: that's right. Back in in twenty fifteen, I went with 59 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:10,276 Speaker 1: the very Institute of Justice. We were there for several days, 60 00:04:10,316 --> 00:04:13,756 Speaker 1: and we landed in Berlin and we spent some time there, 61 00:04:14,076 --> 00:04:16,796 Speaker 1: but we also went to one of the northern states, 62 00:04:16,796 --> 00:04:21,356 Speaker 1: near the Baltic actually, and there we saw, you know, 63 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:27,556 Speaker 1: a more rural place and their prisons. So who was 64 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:29,236 Speaker 1: on the trip with you, Because one of the great 65 00:04:29,276 --> 00:04:33,036 Speaker 1: things about my trip is that there were formerly incarcerated people. 66 00:04:33,516 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 1: There were people who ran prisons and other institutions in 67 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:41,196 Speaker 1: the United States. There were politicians who were working on 68 00:04:41,236 --> 00:04:46,036 Speaker 1: criminal justice reform. There were academics, there were criminologists. There 69 00:04:46,116 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: was such a group to learn from. Yeah, I would say, 70 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:51,836 Speaker 1: did ill to all that the exact same cast of characters, 71 00:04:52,316 --> 00:04:55,956 Speaker 1: no different, just just a lot of people with both 72 00:04:55,996 --> 00:05:00,236 Speaker 1: lived experience in this system, people who have studied the 73 00:05:00,236 --> 00:05:03,236 Speaker 1: system and people who run these systems. So you and 74 00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:07,716 Speaker 1: I both took trips to Western Europe to see prisons, 75 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:10,756 Speaker 1: and the point of those trips was to see how 76 00:05:10,796 --> 00:05:13,316 Speaker 1: they operate there, because essentially they operate so much better 77 00:05:13,316 --> 00:05:16,036 Speaker 1: than in the United States. The prison population in the 78 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: United States since nineteen seventy has exploded. It's gone up 79 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:24,036 Speaker 1: over seven hundred percent. The prison population in nineteen seventy 80 00:05:24,076 --> 00:05:26,476 Speaker 1: was predominantly white. It was about seventy percent white and 81 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:30,076 Speaker 1: thirty percent black and brown, and that has reversed. And 82 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 1: so this is this is mass incarceration. This is what 83 00:05:33,676 --> 00:05:36,556 Speaker 1: our country's prisons look like now, and we're at this 84 00:05:36,596 --> 00:05:40,756 Speaker 1: opportunity point now in the United States, where like we've 85 00:05:40,796 --> 00:05:44,196 Speaker 1: maybe reached the peak with mass incarceration and we're going 86 00:05:44,276 --> 00:05:47,556 Speaker 1: down some and there's an opportunity to push through further, 87 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:49,796 Speaker 1: and so maybe there are things to learn from that, 88 00:05:49,876 --> 00:05:52,716 Speaker 1: and let's let's talk about what we experienced there and 89 00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:55,596 Speaker 1: what we might use back home. Yeah, I think that's 90 00:05:55,596 --> 00:05:57,956 Speaker 1: that's right, and I'd love to do that, especially since 91 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 1: we know here in this country that the Biden administration 92 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 1: is experiencing a lot of pressure to do a lot 93 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 1: of progressive change. And one of the things, of course, 94 00:06:11,316 --> 00:06:17,076 Speaker 1: as driving that is policing. But before policing, we'd seen 95 00:06:17,636 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 1: a decade of criminal justice movement and reform. Books like 96 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 1: The New gem Crow by Michelle Alexander, published a decade ago, 97 00:06:25,236 --> 00:06:28,836 Speaker 1: really helped to open up a national conversation and then 98 00:06:29,756 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 1: laid in the Obama administration, we saw the First Step 99 00:06:32,836 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 1: Act being proposed. Later, it was passed during the Trump administration, 100 00:06:38,276 --> 00:06:41,636 Speaker 1: gotten held up in the center. Let's tell people what 101 00:06:41,836 --> 00:06:44,116 Speaker 1: is the First Step Act? The First Step Act did 102 00:06:44,196 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: try to accomplish a couple of things. One had tried 103 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 1: to shorten sentences by rolling back some of the harsher 104 00:06:49,476 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 1: mandatory minimums, that had been such a key part of 105 00:06:52,116 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 1: driving up the population in the first place. The second 106 00:06:54,996 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: thing it did was trying to improve conditions of confinement, 107 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:01,836 Speaker 1: and those two things combined ultimately meant that the federal 108 00:07:01,876 --> 00:07:05,996 Speaker 1: system not only should be smaller, but should be more humane, 109 00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 1: a little bit more like what we've seen in other countries. 110 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:12,636 Speaker 1: So Trump took credit for it, and it was a 111 00:07:12,916 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 1: first step literally in softening some of the hard edges 112 00:07:17,836 --> 00:07:22,276 Speaker 1: of the incarceration experiencing something as ludicrous, for example, was 113 00:07:22,436 --> 00:07:26,276 Speaker 1: now banning the shackling of pregnant women in federal custody. 114 00:07:26,956 --> 00:07:33,316 Speaker 1: So that was partly informed by people going to Europe 115 00:07:33,716 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 1: and studying what they were doing, and of course you 116 00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 1: and I got to see it firsthand. But I think 117 00:07:39,956 --> 00:07:43,596 Speaker 1: this is a moment to put back in the conversation 118 00:07:43,676 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 1: exactly what we saw, because if we're gonna if we're 119 00:07:46,356 --> 00:07:49,036 Speaker 1: going to really move the needle, I think as many 120 00:07:49,076 --> 00:07:53,676 Speaker 1: people as possible need to know what real change looks like. Yeah, 121 00:07:53,716 --> 00:07:55,236 Speaker 1: and I thought this would be a good place to 122 00:07:55,236 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 1: talk about it. Some of my best friends are on 123 00:07:57,876 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 1: this podcast where some of your best friends on that trip, 124 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 1: I wasn't there. Well, I felt like you were there. 125 00:08:03,356 --> 00:08:05,236 Speaker 1: You're always with me and we knew a lot of 126 00:08:05,236 --> 00:08:08,076 Speaker 1: people in common, that's right, And I helped you get 127 00:08:08,116 --> 00:08:11,876 Speaker 1: on that trip. You've mentioned that maybe seven times so far. 128 00:08:30,556 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 1: I mean, we pull up to this prison in Norway, 129 00:08:33,556 --> 00:08:37,716 Speaker 1: a maximum security prison called Haulden, and it looks like 130 00:08:37,716 --> 00:08:39,996 Speaker 1: a fucking prison. It is a prison, I mean, like 131 00:08:40,036 --> 00:08:43,676 Speaker 1: in the fortress model, you know, giant concrete walls. There's 132 00:08:43,716 --> 00:08:47,476 Speaker 1: nothing from the outside that says this is not a prison. 133 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 1: You know, crazy security, you know, double layers. To get in, 134 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 1: it was like getting into a prison. You know that. 135 00:08:55,196 --> 00:08:57,236 Speaker 1: You know, my experience is here in the United States 136 00:08:57,236 --> 00:09:00,996 Speaker 1: and in Illinois too, you know, all kinds of guard 137 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 1: towers things like that. So then you get inside and 138 00:09:04,356 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 1: that's where the differences are. It's like it is a 139 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:12,556 Speaker 1: prison and it is separation from society. Like they're being punished, 140 00:09:12,556 --> 00:09:16,156 Speaker 1: and the punishment is that you lose your liberty and 141 00:09:16,276 --> 00:09:21,676 Speaker 1: you're inside of this space. And so both Norway and 142 00:09:21,796 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 1: Finland and maybe Germany, you could tell me if it's 143 00:09:24,556 --> 00:09:26,876 Speaker 1: the same thing that they have this idea of normality, 144 00:09:26,996 --> 00:09:29,996 Speaker 1: which sort of is you know, foundational to their belief 145 00:09:29,996 --> 00:09:33,796 Speaker 1: of punishment, that that prison should be as much like 146 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: the outside world as possible, it should be as normal 147 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:40,356 Speaker 1: as possible, that you lose your liberty but not your citizenship, 148 00:09:40,796 --> 00:09:45,436 Speaker 1: that that prison itself is not an additional punishment, meaning 149 00:09:45,476 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 1: like the conditions inside are not so fucked up that 150 00:09:49,996 --> 00:09:53,076 Speaker 1: it's it's beyond the years that you're separated from society, 151 00:09:53,476 --> 00:09:56,316 Speaker 1: like it's it's actually a punishment in the United States, 152 00:09:56,356 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 1: not just to be separated from society, but to live 153 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: in this cell, to be exposed to violence, to terrible healthcare, 154 00:10:03,916 --> 00:10:08,876 Speaker 1: to terrible food, to terrible conditions, and so you know, 155 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:11,316 Speaker 1: to make it as normal as possible, so you're not 156 00:10:11,356 --> 00:10:14,796 Speaker 1: wearing prison clothes. You you you cook and have a kitchen, 157 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:20,236 Speaker 1: you cook for yourselves. We went into these cells, and 158 00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:24,396 Speaker 1: the people who ran correctional facilities in the United States, 159 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:27,516 Speaker 1: they were losing their minds. They couldn't believe this cell, 160 00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:30,596 Speaker 1: you know. So one thing, it had a door that 161 00:10:30,676 --> 00:10:35,156 Speaker 1: locked from the inside, so meaning meaning the person who 162 00:10:35,236 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 1: was being you know, supposedly locked up, he was actually 163 00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:40,556 Speaker 1: like like any home you could you could just sort 164 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:43,356 Speaker 1: of control and it was like it was just like 165 00:10:43,396 --> 00:10:45,796 Speaker 1: it was like just this little wooden door from from 166 00:10:45,836 --> 00:10:48,396 Speaker 1: the hardware store, like the cheapest wood door, meaning like 167 00:10:48,876 --> 00:10:50,916 Speaker 1: you didn't need some hack saw to get out of there. 168 00:10:51,276 --> 00:10:53,996 Speaker 1: It was like a college dorm room sized. It also 169 00:10:54,116 --> 00:10:57,276 Speaker 1: had its own bathroom. None of this was visible from 170 00:10:57,316 --> 00:11:01,196 Speaker 1: the outside. And just the concept, you know, to use 171 00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 1: the toilet with privacy. I mean to think of the 172 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:07,156 Speaker 1: degradation that you you know, in a prison in the 173 00:11:07,196 --> 00:11:11,476 Speaker 1: United States, anyone walked can buy uh, can see you 174 00:11:11,516 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 1: on the toilet anytime. You know, sometimes people put up 175 00:11:14,436 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 1: sheets in their cells. But but the idea that you 176 00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:20,356 Speaker 1: should always be visible from the outside. Um. And they 177 00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:22,956 Speaker 1: had a window with a beautiful view and like curtains 178 00:11:22,996 --> 00:11:27,116 Speaker 1: on the window. Curtains people had their own linen. Yeah 179 00:11:27,116 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 1: house planet, you know, I know you're describing yours, but 180 00:11:29,676 --> 00:11:31,796 Speaker 1: I saw some of the same stuff. And I mean, 181 00:11:31,796 --> 00:11:34,356 Speaker 1: the thing that really blew people's minds from the United 182 00:11:34,396 --> 00:11:38,156 Speaker 1: States is they were seeing in every space things that 183 00:11:38,196 --> 00:11:41,236 Speaker 1: could be turned into a weapon. Like their minds. Even 184 00:11:41,276 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 1: as people who had been in prison or who were 185 00:11:43,316 --> 00:11:46,556 Speaker 1: running facilities, they were like, well that metal frame and 186 00:11:46,916 --> 00:11:50,156 Speaker 1: those pins and those you know, everything, and I was 187 00:11:50,196 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: like they could be turned They were like, it's not 188 00:11:51,716 --> 00:11:53,956 Speaker 1: even like they could be turned into a weapons like 189 00:11:53,996 --> 00:11:57,356 Speaker 1: nothing was bolted down. The metal chair itself was a weapon. 190 00:11:57,796 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 1: Um and so you and then do you you missed 191 00:12:00,996 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: the most obvious thing, like the silverware when I went 192 00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: into when I went into one of these same cells 193 00:12:08,556 --> 00:12:12,076 Speaker 1: in a literally in a maximum security prison, people had 194 00:12:12,116 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 1: their own forks and knives, knives, Like we can't even 195 00:12:15,556 --> 00:12:18,556 Speaker 1: take plastic knives through tsa on an airplane in the 196 00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:22,316 Speaker 1: United States, right, But but in Germany or Norway you 197 00:12:22,356 --> 00:12:25,796 Speaker 1: can have a metal knife and fork to eat with 198 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,516 Speaker 1: like a human being. Yeah. Yeah. They had shared kitchen, 199 00:12:29,596 --> 00:12:32,836 Speaker 1: so you know, you're cooking as a group, and there 200 00:12:32,836 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 1: were butcher knives. They were on sort of like chords, 201 00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:37,516 Speaker 1: you know, so you can slice in everything. So you 202 00:12:37,516 --> 00:12:39,116 Speaker 1: didn't just kill them in the kitchen. But now you 203 00:12:39,116 --> 00:12:43,916 Speaker 1: didn't take the butcher knife back to you. So um so. 204 00:12:43,916 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 1: So when we sat down in the very first prison 205 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:48,796 Speaker 1: we sat down in in Finland, one of the first 206 00:12:48,876 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: questions was is there violence in the prison? You know, 207 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:56,076 Speaker 1: the people who were imprisoned, you know, are they fighting? 208 00:12:56,116 --> 00:12:59,836 Speaker 1: Are they attacking guards? And one of the guards there 209 00:12:59,876 --> 00:13:02,756 Speaker 1: sort of almost laughingly said, you know, there were a 210 00:13:02,756 --> 00:13:06,196 Speaker 1: couple like fights in the shower, you know, things happened. Um, 211 00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:11,156 Speaker 1: they were not only rare, they weren't suddenly an excuse 212 00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: to have, you know, sort of extreme separation punishment due humanization. 213 00:13:19,196 --> 00:13:21,356 Speaker 1: And I imagine, I mean, if I were listening to 214 00:13:21,436 --> 00:13:25,516 Speaker 1: this conversation, not having gone to Finland, Norway or Germany, 215 00:13:25,556 --> 00:13:29,556 Speaker 1: I would be like, yeah, that's bullshit, right. But the 216 00:13:29,556 --> 00:13:35,396 Speaker 1: truth is that while people can unlock themselves from their 217 00:13:35,396 --> 00:13:39,676 Speaker 1: cells to socialize, they're still socializing within a limited cellblock, right, 218 00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 1: so they can't get out of the cell block. They 219 00:13:43,956 --> 00:13:46,956 Speaker 1: still use solitary confinement. And the difference is not that 220 00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:49,716 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. The difference is that they have like 221 00:13:49,756 --> 00:13:53,716 Speaker 1: a four week maximum. The point is that the punishment 222 00:13:54,036 --> 00:13:58,916 Speaker 1: is the least used tool inside of a prison, right 223 00:13:58,996 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 1: because the point of the incarceration experience itself is to 224 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:06,076 Speaker 1: is to help people return to a normal life on 225 00:14:06,076 --> 00:14:10,156 Speaker 1: the outside, and so everything there has to be instead 226 00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:13,156 Speaker 1: of antisocial, it's got to be pro social. It's got 227 00:14:13,156 --> 00:14:17,276 Speaker 1: to encourage people, um to find another language, another way 228 00:14:17,316 --> 00:14:21,516 Speaker 1: of communicating their frustrations that don't lead to violence. You know. 229 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:24,796 Speaker 1: The other sense of normality is that the normalcy is 230 00:14:24,796 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 1: the to prepare you to reduce all the harmful effects 231 00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:30,916 Speaker 1: of prison. So prison sucks, like it sucks in the 232 00:14:30,996 --> 00:14:34,556 Speaker 1: United States, and it sucks in Germany and Finland and Norway. 233 00:14:34,556 --> 00:14:37,116 Speaker 1: It's this is a terrible thing. It's a bad experience 234 00:14:37,156 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 1: to be to be separated from the world, from society, 235 00:14:40,116 --> 00:14:42,996 Speaker 1: and from your loved ones to a degree, right because 236 00:14:43,156 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 1: and from your loved ones, right. So everything is trying 237 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 1: to get you to reduce the harm those harmful effects 238 00:14:50,356 --> 00:14:53,356 Speaker 1: so you can come back to society whole. And so 239 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:56,716 Speaker 1: the more it's like the outside, the easier that transition 240 00:14:56,756 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 1: back is. So one of the ways that it's also 241 00:14:58,916 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 1: made normal is that, um, you're not you're not put 242 00:15:03,036 --> 00:15:06,556 Speaker 1: in a prison that's you know, two hundred miles away 243 00:15:06,556 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 1: from your home. You know, in the United States, we 244 00:15:08,796 --> 00:15:11,916 Speaker 1: have this model where where people in cities, and you know, 245 00:15:12,036 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 1: largely black and brown men, are charged by district attorneys 246 00:15:18,116 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 1: in cities and then they're sent into the state system 247 00:15:21,556 --> 00:15:24,396 Speaker 1: and they're usually sent you know we you know, in Chicago, 248 00:15:24,436 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 1: we say downstate. In New York they say upstate, but 249 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 1: they mean it means far away. And it's almost like 250 00:15:30,836 --> 00:15:33,596 Speaker 1: an additional punishment to say, if your family wants to 251 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:35,956 Speaker 1: see you we're going to make it as hard as possible. 252 00:15:36,276 --> 00:15:38,036 Speaker 1: So not only that, I mean, can we pause on 253 00:15:38,036 --> 00:15:39,316 Speaker 1: this for a moment, because I think this is an 254 00:15:39,316 --> 00:15:43,676 Speaker 1: important way to illustrate how different things are. So yes, 255 00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:47,476 Speaker 1: I saw the same thing in Germany. Proximity was a 256 00:15:47,516 --> 00:15:51,596 Speaker 1: big part of how people were never that far away 257 00:15:52,596 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 1: from home. But in the United States, not only is 258 00:15:56,956 --> 00:16:01,476 Speaker 1: it the case as you describe, where mothers and siblings 259 00:16:01,516 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 1: and the children of the incarcerated not only have to 260 00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:10,196 Speaker 1: sometimes travel hours to get to their loved ones who 261 00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 1: are incarcerated, and sometimes those hours trips are expensive, then 262 00:16:16,356 --> 00:16:21,956 Speaker 1: they have to experience the indignity of being treated like 263 00:16:21,956 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 1: like bad people who want to come see their loved ones, 264 00:16:24,956 --> 00:16:28,756 Speaker 1: by being subjected to searches, by being talked down to 265 00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:34,316 Speaker 1: by all of these incredibly heightened security measures, sent away, 266 00:16:34,396 --> 00:16:37,116 Speaker 1: which you know, women are often sent away. They can say, arbitrailer, 267 00:16:37,156 --> 00:16:39,716 Speaker 1: your clothes are too tight, or you're really feeling too much. Yeah, 268 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:44,756 Speaker 1: just spent five hours your underwear is showing us. Yeah yeah, yeah, 269 00:16:44,796 --> 00:16:50,316 Speaker 1: absolutely So So to your point that that the experience 270 00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:57,356 Speaker 1: itself is meant to make it feel like everybody's welcome, 271 00:16:57,516 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 1: like even even for us as you know, you could 272 00:17:01,076 --> 00:17:03,516 Speaker 1: say to a degree your group in my group were 273 00:17:04,036 --> 00:17:08,116 Speaker 1: special outside visitors, but all of us as skeptics on 274 00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 1: my trip, including the four state commissioners and two chief prosecutors. 275 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 1: I mean there were there were plenty of people on 276 00:17:13,916 --> 00:17:15,556 Speaker 1: this trip. They were like, yeah, this is not going 277 00:17:15,596 --> 00:17:17,876 Speaker 1: to be Like, there was no way they could have 278 00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:22,396 Speaker 1: coordinated a massive conspiracy of like all these people pretending 279 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:24,716 Speaker 1: like this is how things work. We saw people roaming 280 00:17:24,756 --> 00:17:28,356 Speaker 1: halls randomly with nothing but just you know, like a 281 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:31,836 Speaker 1: meditative stare on their face. It was like, and here 282 00:17:31,876 --> 00:17:34,516 Speaker 1: we were walking amongst them, so like, just to think 283 00:17:34,556 --> 00:17:37,916 Speaker 1: about it, like we were not. I think we might 284 00:17:37,956 --> 00:17:41,676 Speaker 1: have gone through some screening, maybe a metal detector in 285 00:17:41,716 --> 00:17:45,236 Speaker 1: some instances I can't remember, but it was definitely the 286 00:17:45,276 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 1: case that and I had a camera. I mean, my 287 00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 1: camera could have been a weapon. Anybody could have come 288 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 1: up to me taken something from me. I could have 289 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:55,556 Speaker 1: given it to someone. It just wasn't. The whole mood 290 00:17:55,716 --> 00:18:00,676 Speaker 1: was like, this is not about feeling like everyone is 291 00:18:00,716 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 1: a violent murderer looking to kill somebody. That's so interesting. 292 00:18:04,916 --> 00:18:08,276 Speaker 1: Because I went in as the journalist, I was allowed 293 00:18:08,276 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: to bring in all my courting equipment. And when we 294 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:14,556 Speaker 1: went into Haulden Prison, it's maximum security prison. While the 295 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 1: rest of the people on the trip sort of got 296 00:18:16,556 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 1: the rundown of the place from the prison administrator, I 297 00:18:20,316 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: was escorted into a room and sat down with two 298 00:18:23,196 --> 00:18:26,276 Speaker 1: guys who were in prison there, and it was just 299 00:18:26,396 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: so relaxed. One of the guys I spoke with was Frederick, 300 00:18:31,756 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 1: who was this bear of a guy, a huge beard, 301 00:18:35,116 --> 00:18:40,196 Speaker 1: giant Nordic guy, but also very seemed very calm and peaceful. 302 00:18:40,276 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 1: He was in there for murder, and we ended up 303 00:18:43,316 --> 00:18:47,116 Speaker 1: having this long conversation about his experience. It's a long story, 304 00:18:47,316 --> 00:18:53,236 Speaker 1: a long story action, but yeah, it's changed. Something's has 305 00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: changed to the bid and something's has changed to the worst. 306 00:18:57,676 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 1: In Haulden. Every every person who's in prison there works 307 00:19:02,516 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 1: with the one of the guards, one of the correctional officers, 308 00:19:05,236 --> 00:19:09,516 Speaker 1: and every correctional officer they're called contact officers, has at 309 00:19:09,556 --> 00:19:12,036 Speaker 1: least two people that they work with that they're basically 310 00:19:12,116 --> 00:19:15,796 Speaker 1: like mentor and mentee. It's like um, it's more like 311 00:19:15,876 --> 00:19:19,356 Speaker 1: social work. They're supposed to guide you and help you 312 00:19:19,396 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 1: with like if you apply for before before you can 313 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:26,996 Speaker 1: go on you know, permissions and stuff, and when they're 314 00:19:27,036 --> 00:19:32,036 Speaker 1: applied for different things. Yeah, the conduct officers help you 315 00:19:32,116 --> 00:19:36,556 Speaker 1: with writing, if you need help with that, They help 316 00:19:36,596 --> 00:19:41,516 Speaker 1: you with if you have troubles with your clothes and 317 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 1: all stuff like that. Daily thinks that many struggle within. 318 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:50,396 Speaker 1: Here one officer that follows you, so they know about 319 00:19:50,476 --> 00:19:54,556 Speaker 1: your family situation. And are these contact officers Because I 320 00:19:54,876 --> 00:19:57,876 Speaker 1: don't remember this part of our experience, I can't say 321 00:19:57,916 --> 00:20:00,436 Speaker 1: that they don't have them in Germany. But are the 322 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:03,836 Speaker 1: contact officers? Do they present as guards or do they 323 00:20:03,836 --> 00:20:07,436 Speaker 1: have different uniforms? Man, it is the guards. The contacts. 324 00:20:07,596 --> 00:20:11,236 Speaker 1: Are the guards there as part of their job is 325 00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 1: that they're also like, you know, reminded me of when 326 00:20:13,836 --> 00:20:16,556 Speaker 1: I was a teacher and they were like, Okay, you're 327 00:20:16,556 --> 00:20:19,596 Speaker 1: a teacher, but you're also going to be an advisor 328 00:20:19,636 --> 00:20:23,916 Speaker 1: to these eight students. And suddenly, like in the entire school, 329 00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm always looking for those eight students and 330 00:20:25,876 --> 00:20:29,076 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm responsible for them. I'm matched up with 331 00:20:29,116 --> 00:20:33,796 Speaker 1: this guard, Lynn Andreasen, a slight woman, brown hair. She's 332 00:20:33,836 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 1: been working there for nine years, and I get to 333 00:20:36,756 --> 00:20:42,796 Speaker 1: interview her separately. It's important that we can be open 334 00:20:42,876 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 1: and direct, but I have to be objective about his 335 00:20:49,516 --> 00:20:55,916 Speaker 1: case and who is in daily life, and I need 336 00:20:55,996 --> 00:21:00,196 Speaker 1: to tell him what he needs to do. And she 337 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:02,996 Speaker 1: starts to tell me she had two years of training. 338 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:06,916 Speaker 1: I know that. I heard that in Norway something like 339 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 1: twelve hundred people apply every year for the job and 340 00:21:09,796 --> 00:21:12,356 Speaker 1: they take about one hundred and seventy five and then 341 00:21:12,356 --> 00:21:15,476 Speaker 1: they have to go through this rigorous process. She had 342 00:21:15,476 --> 00:21:19,316 Speaker 1: a degree in social work and environmental therapy and she 343 00:21:19,356 --> 00:21:21,876 Speaker 1: had worked at the prison for about nine years. I 344 00:21:21,956 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 1: always say to my inmates that we're a team. I 345 00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 1: want the same as you want, but the question is 346 00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:32,516 Speaker 1: when you can get it and when you want it 347 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:38,716 Speaker 1: and maybe not. We're not agreeing that. And so specific 348 00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 1: things that you would say that you need to do 349 00:21:41,476 --> 00:21:44,676 Speaker 1: is specific classes, their programs you have to take. Yeah, 350 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:46,676 Speaker 1: maybe I will tell them, okay, you need to take 351 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:50,836 Speaker 1: that class, even if I don't want to force them, 352 00:21:50,836 --> 00:21:53,916 Speaker 1: and we can't force them, but we need to motivate them. 353 00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:56,436 Speaker 1: And do you get into sort of the root causes 354 00:21:56,436 --> 00:21:58,716 Speaker 1: of the problems or people tell you about their childhood 355 00:21:58,756 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: and their families. Sometimes they need to, especially when it's 356 00:22:03,276 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 1: about drug problems. Why do you have a drug problem. 357 00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 1: This is also some of our education. We learned some 358 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:21,836 Speaker 1: tools and methods that we used to provoke feelings and honesty. 359 00:22:22,596 --> 00:22:25,956 Speaker 1: Wow wow, I mean the line first of all, that 360 00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:29,196 Speaker 1: was awesome interview and yeah, I just wanted you to 361 00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:31,556 Speaker 1: hear my interview technique that yeah, yeah, yeah could to 362 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:37,036 Speaker 1: me for recommending you. Oh man, that was incredible. So 363 00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:41,076 Speaker 1: the thing that that is so powerful in that statement 364 00:22:41,156 --> 00:22:46,716 Speaker 1: by Land is we are a team. Yeah, just so incredible. 365 00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:49,036 Speaker 1: And for her to say, like all of us have 366 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 1: one or two inmates that we work with and too, 367 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:55,796 Speaker 1: as you said, do you get into the background story, like, 368 00:22:56,476 --> 00:23:00,836 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what individualize therapeutic intervention means, right Like, 369 00:23:00,916 --> 00:23:03,916 Speaker 1: you are an individual I see you, I hear you. 370 00:23:04,276 --> 00:23:07,356 Speaker 1: I'm rooting for you. I don't want you to do 371 00:23:07,436 --> 00:23:09,876 Speaker 1: anything you're not ready to do, but when you're ready, 372 00:23:10,036 --> 00:23:13,516 Speaker 1: I'm here to support you. The way you describe it 373 00:23:13,556 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 1: also makes me think, and I hadn't thought about this 374 00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 1: until now, that the loss of liberty, as you say, 375 00:23:21,076 --> 00:23:24,436 Speaker 1: is the punishment, and we heard that a lot also, 376 00:23:25,796 --> 00:23:29,836 Speaker 1: but also that you've hit the bottom when you land there, 377 00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:33,676 Speaker 1: right Like, I hadn't really thought about that till now, 378 00:23:34,276 --> 00:23:37,876 Speaker 1: but like we think about people who have addiction problems, 379 00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:43,276 Speaker 1: and the whole the whole kind of science of addiction 380 00:23:43,316 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 1: recovery is that you really can't help somebody who doesn't 381 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:51,596 Speaker 1: want to be helped. And it's terribly tragic because you know, 382 00:23:51,636 --> 00:23:54,276 Speaker 1: the whole kind of science of it is that people 383 00:23:54,316 --> 00:23:57,676 Speaker 1: have to hit quote unquote rock bottom in whatever way 384 00:23:57,716 --> 00:24:00,756 Speaker 1: that means something to them, and then they turn their 385 00:24:00,796 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 1: lives around. Then they can commit to therapy and you know, 386 00:24:05,716 --> 00:24:09,316 Speaker 1: and rehabilitation or whatever term gets them out of their 387 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:12,436 Speaker 1: drug addiction. And in a way, I'm thinking about this 388 00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:15,596 Speaker 1: just now for the first time. That's the analogy, not 389 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:19,796 Speaker 1: only because going to prison is that rock bottom moment, 390 00:24:20,756 --> 00:24:23,596 Speaker 1: but then you get built up from there, like you 391 00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 1: get actual individualized therapeutic treatment. Half the people we talked 392 00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 1: to were literally trained psychologists because part of the people 393 00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:39,796 Speaker 1: like the CEOs, the guards, the correctional officers, the people 394 00:24:39,796 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 1: who work well, they weren't actually CEO, but they were 395 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:44,956 Speaker 1: part of the staff. They were the prison staff. Um 396 00:24:45,236 --> 00:24:47,636 Speaker 1: they you know, they weren't the guards. They were the 397 00:24:47,676 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: social workers and psychologists who spent time literally working up 398 00:24:53,276 --> 00:24:59,356 Speaker 1: individual treatment plans for every single person. Yeah, and so 399 00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:02,956 Speaker 1: this so this think about like the investment in training 400 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:08,636 Speaker 1: man hours, woman hours like and then the notion that 401 00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:13,956 Speaker 1: you can't treat people like they're some kind of widget 402 00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 1: on an assembly line of punishment, that actually everybody has 403 00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 1: a particular story to tell about how they ended up 404 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:26,516 Speaker 1: quote unquote at rock bottom. Yeah, and that's what I loved. 405 00:25:26,596 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 1: I love about how you described because it helped me 406 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:32,196 Speaker 1: to think about it as Yes, of course you go 407 00:25:32,276 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 1: to rehab. The point of rehab is not to make 408 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:36,956 Speaker 1: you feel like shit for all the terrible things you 409 00:25:36,996 --> 00:25:40,956 Speaker 1: did while you were high. Right. The point is, like, 410 00:25:41,516 --> 00:25:45,076 Speaker 1: we need to help you see the beauty inside of you. 411 00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:48,996 Speaker 1: We need to help you get reconnected to who you 412 00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:51,476 Speaker 1: are in relation to these people who love you and 413 00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:59,196 Speaker 1: want you to do better. So, from my experience, so 414 00:25:59,356 --> 00:26:09,476 Speaker 1: the beauty you can see inside, teach them giddy easy, 415 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:42,076 Speaker 1: Let the diligence last. I mean, I mean for me, Khalil. 416 00:26:42,236 --> 00:26:45,356 Speaker 1: You know, I am working on these ideas daily. So 417 00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:48,036 Speaker 1: I'm working on this book and also a podcast about 418 00:26:48,076 --> 00:26:50,756 Speaker 1: the parole system in the United States and about criminal 419 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 1: justice reform and about people who are incarcerated. You know, 420 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:58,676 Speaker 1: the United States has a quarter of all the incarcerated 421 00:26:58,716 --> 00:27:01,436 Speaker 1: people in the world. That's just nuts, that just doesn't 422 00:27:01,476 --> 00:27:04,516 Speaker 1: make any sense. And so how did we get here? 423 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:09,636 Speaker 1: And also like, are there is there anything you know? 424 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: And what we saw that we could actually use in 425 00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:16,436 Speaker 1: the United States to get out of the condition that 426 00:27:16,476 --> 00:27:20,516 Speaker 1: we're in, the condition of mass incarceration. Something happened to 427 00:27:20,556 --> 00:27:23,036 Speaker 1: me kind of more like on my way home from Germany. 428 00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:27,716 Speaker 1: But but it helped me to really understand for the 429 00:27:27,756 --> 00:27:35,956 Speaker 1: first time how much America's foundation and race and racism 430 00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:43,436 Speaker 1: has so fundamentally shaped all aspects of our society. And 431 00:27:43,476 --> 00:27:45,276 Speaker 1: so I want to yeah, so I I you know, 432 00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:48,516 Speaker 1: So I want to tell you this story about some 433 00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:51,076 Speaker 1: things I saw and then that I experienced on my 434 00:27:51,116 --> 00:27:55,356 Speaker 1: way home. I never told you it kind of surprising 435 00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:59,556 Speaker 1: because it was really kind of it was shocking to 436 00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 1: me personally. I felt it very personal. And it helps 437 00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:08,876 Speaker 1: to explain part of the answer to this question about 438 00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 1: why the United States is so different relative to these 439 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:15,916 Speaker 1: European nations. The whole point of the trip for us 440 00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:20,316 Speaker 1: was to learn how do things work in Germany when 441 00:28:20,356 --> 00:28:24,116 Speaker 1: it comes to prisons as compared to the United States. 442 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 1: Like that's why we went there, and what we learned 443 00:28:28,876 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 1: is that the laws they governed punishment were directly written 444 00:28:35,996 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 1: to account for the Holocaust, that they were written to 445 00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:45,596 Speaker 1: make sure that prisons themselves would never again be an 446 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 1: instrument of genocide or any kind of state sponsored racist project. 447 00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 1: So this wasn't just youth saying I think of Germany, 448 00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:57,676 Speaker 1: I think of the Holocaust, I'm going to see prisons. 449 00:28:57,676 --> 00:29:01,916 Speaker 1: So I'm equating the two. The two are linked there absolutely, 450 00:29:02,196 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 1: and the public culture of Germany acknowledges certainly since the 451 00:29:08,716 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and eighties, there was a generation where this 452 00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: wasn't the case. But the public culture of Germany, including 453 00:29:16,036 --> 00:29:19,556 Speaker 1: a memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in the 454 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:23,916 Speaker 1: middle of Berlin, the capital of the nation, is part 455 00:29:24,036 --> 00:29:29,796 Speaker 1: of how Germans have taken this awful history and try 456 00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:34,836 Speaker 1: to make themselves a better nation. I mean this powerful 457 00:29:34,916 --> 00:29:39,556 Speaker 1: moment when on our first day we visit the Holocaust Memorial, 458 00:29:39,636 --> 00:29:43,076 Speaker 1: which is really called the Memorial to the Murdered Jews 459 00:29:43,116 --> 00:29:46,876 Speaker 1: of Europe, and it's this powerful memorials right in the 460 00:29:46,916 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 1: middle of Berlin. It is the physical landscape is represented 461 00:29:53,476 --> 00:30:01,076 Speaker 1: by these block of granite that stand in various heights 462 00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:05,316 Speaker 1: from a couple of feet to eight feet and you 463 00:30:05,396 --> 00:30:08,156 Speaker 1: get lost in a maze. And this is a maze 464 00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:13,956 Speaker 1: of murder. Early and out of nowhere, I look up, 465 00:30:14,596 --> 00:30:18,596 Speaker 1: literally and I see a toddler running through Because what 466 00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:21,996 Speaker 1: toddler wouldn't be captivated like being in a human maze, 467 00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:25,556 Speaker 1: Because from that small child's perspective, that's all it was. 468 00:30:26,996 --> 00:30:33,036 Speaker 1: But it struck me that starting at the age of incomprehension, 469 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:37,676 Speaker 1: for the smallest child in Berlin, there is this inescapable 470 00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:43,556 Speaker 1: relationship to that history, and that that lesson carries not 471 00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 1: just from the boldness which with Germans have had to 472 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:50,036 Speaker 1: face over time. They didn't get this right right away, 473 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:52,436 Speaker 1: but they had to face what they did and then 474 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:55,956 Speaker 1: teach it to their children. But still I keep thinking myself, 475 00:30:55,956 --> 00:31:01,876 Speaker 1: like here in this country, they've done the work, They've 476 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:05,276 Speaker 1: tried to uproot as best they can, the psychology that 477 00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:08,396 Speaker 1: makes it possible to destroy other people in the name 478 00:31:08,756 --> 00:31:13,036 Speaker 1: of politics or progress or efficiency of something of domination. 479 00:31:14,196 --> 00:31:17,916 Speaker 1: And yet when I'm on my ride home, I literally 480 00:31:18,036 --> 00:31:23,756 Speaker 1: hear the conductor call out Berlin, and I realize I'm 481 00:31:23,796 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 1: leaving this country, Like I'm leaving this country and I 482 00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:27,676 Speaker 1: have to go back to my own country, and I 483 00:31:27,716 --> 00:31:31,556 Speaker 1: have to think about what is possible in America, given 484 00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:36,876 Speaker 1: the deep rooted nature of racism as punishment, that this 485 00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 1: is a system built by design. And then man, so 486 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:45,916 Speaker 1: I can't even believe this happened, because even telling you 487 00:31:46,076 --> 00:31:51,156 Speaker 1: this for the first time, it's like, it's like it's unbelievable. 488 00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:55,316 Speaker 1: So I go home. I happen to fly home with 489 00:31:55,356 --> 00:31:57,556 Speaker 1: three other people from the trip, all white folks. We 490 00:31:57,636 --> 00:32:01,476 Speaker 1: make the flight home nine hours we land, We're all exhausted. 491 00:32:01,476 --> 00:32:06,316 Speaker 1: It's first thing in the morning. We're approaching customs and 492 00:32:06,396 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 1: I get flagged, and you know, I had I was 493 00:32:12,116 --> 00:32:16,476 Speaker 1: already traumatized by TSA because when nine to eleven happened 494 00:32:16,476 --> 00:32:18,716 Speaker 1: and they put all of rules in place, I was 495 00:32:18,756 --> 00:32:20,756 Speaker 1: on the no fly list for a long time because 496 00:32:20,796 --> 00:32:23,556 Speaker 1: of your name, because because some black kid from the 497 00:32:23,596 --> 00:32:27,276 Speaker 1: South Side of Chicago whose family can't even trace his 498 00:32:27,476 --> 00:32:31,196 Speaker 1: roots back to Africa because we've always been here since 499 00:32:31,196 --> 00:32:35,476 Speaker 1: slavery times is now somehow not an American and suspect. 500 00:32:36,916 --> 00:32:40,676 Speaker 1: So and I don't fly internationally that often anyway. You know, 501 00:32:42,196 --> 00:32:45,396 Speaker 1: I come back and I'm annoyed, but I want to 502 00:32:45,396 --> 00:32:49,556 Speaker 1: get home. So I say goodbye to my friends. TSA 503 00:32:49,636 --> 00:32:53,316 Speaker 1: pulls me in for interviewing and I get called to 504 00:32:53,356 --> 00:32:57,596 Speaker 1: talk to the officer and he says, why were you 505 00:32:57,636 --> 00:33:05,636 Speaker 1: in Germany? And I say, visiting prisons? Why were you 506 00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 1: visiting prisons in Germany? Because as the Germans don't destroy 507 00:33:11,916 --> 00:33:19,956 Speaker 1: people like just like in the United States. Well, that's obvious, 508 00:33:20,876 --> 00:33:27,396 Speaker 1: they don't have black people. Come on, no, this is 509 00:33:27,436 --> 00:33:29,236 Speaker 1: what this guy said to you. This is what this 510 00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:37,196 Speaker 1: guy said to me, And that's it, right, Like, that's 511 00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:40,796 Speaker 1: that is the question in front of us. I don't 512 00:33:40,796 --> 00:33:43,756 Speaker 1: even have the exact words to describe what it felt 513 00:33:43,796 --> 00:33:46,036 Speaker 1: like coming off of that trip, going in there with 514 00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:50,596 Speaker 1: those questions, seeing what I saw, trying to map and 515 00:33:50,836 --> 00:33:54,676 Speaker 1: understanding of the Holocaust onto the way they treat people, 516 00:33:54,756 --> 00:33:58,036 Speaker 1: even foreigners, even people of color there, even people who 517 00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 1: who have no trace of German ancestry get treated better 518 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:04,716 Speaker 1: than black people whose histories go back to sixteen nineteen 519 00:34:04,716 --> 00:34:11,076 Speaker 1: in America. And yet I'm not sure he was wrong. No, 520 00:34:11,396 --> 00:34:14,156 Speaker 1: That's that's what's fucked up. Did he say it with malice? 521 00:34:14,236 --> 00:34:19,596 Speaker 1: Was he was? He just was he? No? No, he didn't, 522 00:34:19,636 --> 00:34:23,716 Speaker 1: it was it was It was just so obvious and 523 00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:28,356 Speaker 1: if you think about the obviousness of it. That is 524 00:34:28,356 --> 00:34:32,516 Speaker 1: the thing that explains what has happened in this country. Yeah, 525 00:34:32,596 --> 00:34:37,396 Speaker 1: that is the thing that explains why we have mass incarceration. 526 00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:41,236 Speaker 1: It is the thing that explains why, even in this 527 00:34:41,316 --> 00:34:45,996 Speaker 1: moment of the possibility for significant change, because a lot 528 00:34:46,036 --> 00:34:48,556 Speaker 1: of people agree things need to change, I'm not sure 529 00:34:48,596 --> 00:34:51,556 Speaker 1: how far down the road we're going to get. And 530 00:34:51,636 --> 00:34:54,236 Speaker 1: it's not black people's fault that we got here in 531 00:34:54,236 --> 00:34:56,876 Speaker 1: the first place, and it's not going to ultimately be 532 00:34:56,956 --> 00:34:59,836 Speaker 1: black people that change the system, because white people are 533 00:34:59,836 --> 00:35:02,596 Speaker 1: going to have to decide that they want to reckon 534 00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:06,116 Speaker 1: with what they've done and they want to change because 535 00:35:06,436 --> 00:35:09,756 Speaker 1: the the other irony that I can aunt let go 536 00:35:11,636 --> 00:35:16,756 Speaker 1: is that it was the Americans. It was white Americans 537 00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:23,956 Speaker 1: who enshrined in the post war German constitution the protections 538 00:35:24,716 --> 00:35:28,196 Speaker 1: and the sanctity of life that ultimately you and I 539 00:35:28,236 --> 00:35:31,036 Speaker 1: saw with our own eyes, and we saw the impact 540 00:35:31,116 --> 00:35:36,116 Speaker 1: of that. We are the ones who led denazification efforts. 541 00:35:36,196 --> 00:35:39,876 Speaker 1: There as a kind of post war occupying force and 542 00:35:39,996 --> 00:35:42,796 Speaker 1: presence in Berlin and in Munich. And I've been to 543 00:35:42,836 --> 00:35:47,396 Speaker 1: the museum that is a museum dedicated to understanding the 544 00:35:47,476 --> 00:35:50,356 Speaker 1: History of the Nazi Party, where they tell the story 545 00:35:50,476 --> 00:35:55,716 Speaker 1: of what then happened about American teachers coming to Germany 546 00:35:56,236 --> 00:36:02,116 Speaker 1: to teach the classics of Western history, to teach the 547 00:36:03,636 --> 00:36:09,516 Speaker 1: authors that helped to shape America's liberal democracy, and yet 548 00:36:10,316 --> 00:36:13,636 Speaker 1: we can't teach ourselves what we did to black people 549 00:36:13,636 --> 00:36:17,196 Speaker 1: in this country. Yeah, and that that, to me is 550 00:36:17,236 --> 00:36:20,356 Speaker 1: the hardest lesson to take away from what I saw 551 00:36:20,396 --> 00:36:27,196 Speaker 1: in Germany. That's just so fucked up, man. Uh, you 552 00:36:27,276 --> 00:36:30,676 Speaker 1: went to you literally went to study prisons in another country, 553 00:36:32,156 --> 00:36:38,396 Speaker 1: and you come back and you're criminalized. It's it's uh, 554 00:36:38,596 --> 00:36:41,596 Speaker 1: it would be ironic if it wasn't just so painful 555 00:36:41,636 --> 00:36:45,796 Speaker 1: and real. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. 556 00:36:46,756 --> 00:36:51,716 Speaker 1: Uh wish you were there, though I would have been 557 00:36:51,716 --> 00:36:53,916 Speaker 1: passed along, you know, I wouldn't have been I wouldn't 558 00:36:53,956 --> 00:36:56,236 Speaker 1: have been flagged. I mean that's just the truth. Like 559 00:36:56,276 --> 00:36:58,316 Speaker 1: you were flagged, but you would have put your arms 560 00:36:58,316 --> 00:37:00,156 Speaker 1: around me and been like you can't you can't go 561 00:37:00,516 --> 00:37:16,876 Speaker 1: by himself. I have to go with them. There's this 562 00:37:16,996 --> 00:37:21,636 Speaker 1: sort of you know, disease of American exceptionalism. Uh so 563 00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:24,516 Speaker 1: that we think where and this is almost what the 564 00:37:24,916 --> 00:37:27,676 Speaker 1: Germans and the Finnish and the Norwegians were kind of 565 00:37:27,676 --> 00:37:30,276 Speaker 1: poking fun at you know, because not only do they 566 00:37:30,316 --> 00:37:33,596 Speaker 1: feel superior, they have the moral high ground, but they 567 00:37:33,636 --> 00:37:37,796 Speaker 1: also know that that Americans believe somehow that they're the 568 00:37:37,796 --> 00:37:41,956 Speaker 1: best despite being the worst at many things are really 569 00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:45,796 Speaker 1: bad at you know, not only prisons, but at child 570 00:37:45,876 --> 00:37:50,556 Speaker 1: mortality and poverty and an acqualimed democracy, these healthcare, I mean, 571 00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:55,236 Speaker 1: all these things. And so you know that, you know, 572 00:37:56,316 --> 00:37:59,716 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't use that instead of racism, 573 00:37:59,756 --> 00:38:02,436 Speaker 1: because it's it's in the tour are embedded. The two 574 00:38:02,476 --> 00:38:05,916 Speaker 1: are interconnected. That that you could think this that we 575 00:38:05,956 --> 00:38:09,116 Speaker 1: are exceptional, we are the greatest at the same time 576 00:38:09,116 --> 00:38:13,756 Speaker 1: times that all these things exist is both denying that system, 577 00:38:13,876 --> 00:38:21,116 Speaker 1: or denying racial oppression and also normalizing it and embracing 578 00:38:21,156 --> 00:38:25,116 Speaker 1: it a certain way, whether it's openly or or you know, 579 00:38:25,196 --> 00:38:29,036 Speaker 1: de facto. You know that is how do you how 580 00:38:29,036 --> 00:38:32,076 Speaker 1: do you get past that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I think 581 00:38:32,116 --> 00:38:36,316 Speaker 1: I think for exactly that reason, we are in a 582 00:38:36,436 --> 00:38:39,956 Speaker 1: moment of a new administration and by an administration and 583 00:38:40,156 --> 00:38:44,796 Speaker 1: a lot of promises for racial equity and perhaps the 584 00:38:44,876 --> 00:38:50,596 Speaker 1: greatest systemic form of racism of the past forty years 585 00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:54,076 Speaker 1: has been the criminal justice system and the crisis of 586 00:38:54,156 --> 00:38:58,316 Speaker 1: mass incarceration in all of the racial disparities of black 587 00:38:58,316 --> 00:39:01,516 Speaker 1: and brown people bearing the burden of this punishment machine 588 00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:04,796 Speaker 1: on purpose, a system built by design to do what 589 00:39:04,836 --> 00:39:10,036 Speaker 1: it's been doing. And for me, that's why the twenty 590 00:39:10,236 --> 00:39:13,476 Speaker 1: fifteen trip I took to Germany has really been life 591 00:39:13,516 --> 00:39:17,036 Speaker 1: altering professionally and why it was so important for me 592 00:39:17,156 --> 00:39:20,756 Speaker 1: knowing you were working on your book correction, uh, that 593 00:39:21,076 --> 00:39:23,596 Speaker 1: if I had a chance to get you there to 594 00:39:23,636 --> 00:39:26,476 Speaker 1: see for yourself that I could, you know, I could 595 00:39:26,556 --> 00:39:36,196 Speaker 1: help make that happen, and I'm glad I did. Yeah, Man, 596 00:39:36,236 --> 00:39:38,316 Speaker 1: this was a lot. You know, it's a lot, a 597 00:39:38,356 --> 00:39:42,996 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of really needy, heavy stuff to 598 00:39:43,076 --> 00:39:48,396 Speaker 1: think about. And you know, we we've been friends for 599 00:39:48,436 --> 00:39:51,996 Speaker 1: a long time, so it's been incredible to experience so 600 00:39:52,156 --> 00:39:57,836 Speaker 1: much from like being dumb and stupid and teenagers to 601 00:39:58,036 --> 00:40:01,596 Speaker 1: now literally traveling the world trying to figure out how 602 00:40:01,636 --> 00:40:05,196 Speaker 1: to make a contribution to our own country. Yes, sometimes 603 00:40:05,196 --> 00:40:08,516 Speaker 1: you have to uh to go a far away to 604 00:40:08,516 --> 00:40:11,756 Speaker 1: to understand and the things close up. Yeah, it's kind 605 00:40:11,756 --> 00:40:14,276 Speaker 1: of like when you went to the college and got 606 00:40:14,316 --> 00:40:18,596 Speaker 1: some white buddies and left me behind. Na, That's not 607 00:40:18,716 --> 00:40:24,156 Speaker 1: what happened. No, keep I'm teasing you. You had some 608 00:40:24,196 --> 00:40:28,196 Speaker 1: black buddies too, all right. So all right, so you 609 00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:30,916 Speaker 1: know we gotta keep at it, right yea, keep on 610 00:40:30,996 --> 00:40:38,156 Speaker 1: at time. Keep love you all right, Love you, Jim Mama, 611 00:40:48,876 --> 00:40:57,076 Speaker 1: your baby Daddy's coming. Some of My Best Friends Are 612 00:40:57,316 --> 00:41:00,796 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written 613 00:41:00,876 --> 00:41:03,836 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Khalil, Debron Muhammad, and my best 614 00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:08,076 Speaker 1: friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff Vincent and edited 615 00:41:08,116 --> 00:41:13,276 Speaker 1: by Karen Kurge. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez. Our associate 616 00:41:13,436 --> 00:41:17,676 Speaker 1: editor is Keishell Williams, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. 617 00:41:18,036 --> 00:41:21,596 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Leta Molad and Mia La Belle. 618 00:41:22,236 --> 00:41:26,356 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Impact Justice and the Via Institute of Justice, 619 00:41:26,636 --> 00:41:30,476 Speaker 1: which sponsored our separate trips to prisons overseas. We couldn't 620 00:41:30,516 --> 00:41:33,596 Speaker 1: have done this show without the work of these amazing organizations. 621 00:41:34,036 --> 00:41:38,356 Speaker 1: At Pushkin Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Nigliori, John Schnars, 622 00:41:38,476 --> 00:41:42,076 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by 623 00:41:42,116 --> 00:41:46,396 Speaker 1: fellow chicagoan AVERYR. Young from his amazing album Tubman. You 624 00:41:46,396 --> 00:41:48,516 Speaker 1: will definitely want to check out more of his music 625 00:41:48,556 --> 00:41:52,276 Speaker 1: at his website, averyar Young dot com. You can find 626 00:41:52,316 --> 00:41:55,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you 627 00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:59,076 Speaker 1: can sign up for our newsletter at Pushkin dot fm. 628 00:41:59,116 --> 00:42:03,156 Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, 629 00:42:03,316 --> 00:42:06,636 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. If you 630 00:42:06,716 --> 00:42:10,796 Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin industry, consider becoming 631 00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:15,916 Speaker 1: a Pushnick. Pushnick is a podcast subscription that offers bonus 632 00:42:15,956 --> 00:42:20,396 Speaker 1: content and uninterrupted listening for four dollars in ninety nine 633 00:42:20,436 --> 00:42:29,476 Speaker 1: cents a month. Look for Pushnick exclusively on Apple podcast subscriptions. 634 00:42:55,476 --> 00:43:00,636 Speaker 1: Let's do it, Let's go Activate, Powers Activate