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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I never told you protection of iHeart radio and this

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Speaker 1: time for another happy hour. As Samantha and I record this,

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Speaker 1: it is Friday, late in the afternoon. Yeah, it's Happy

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Speaker 1: Our Time today. It's happy Our Time today, which is

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Speaker 1: is that's fun um as I always drink responsibly if

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Speaker 1: you choose to do so. With these episodes, we just

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Speaker 1: like to kind of create an oasis for you, if

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Speaker 1: you will, although this one is filled with a lot

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Speaker 1: of my rage and hurt and sadness. Not really, but Samantha,

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Speaker 1: what are you sitting on today? Oh? You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: throwing it back to my vino verde because it was

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Speaker 1: simply in my refrigerator after I thought I was gonna

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Speaker 1: have guests and when I said, guess someone who came

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Speaker 1: after a week of quarantine like I'm still pandemic living

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Speaker 1: and prepared to do it on our patio, well ahead

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Speaker 1: and put that out there. But they didn't come, so

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Speaker 1: which was fine by me, but that means I have

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Speaker 1: extra wine. So I pulled that out for my afternoon

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Speaker 1: Happy Our time with you. Thank you. You know, there

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Speaker 1: are some there are some positives for a cancelation of plans.

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Speaker 1: There are definitely I'm okay with cancelation of plans. I

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Speaker 1: know you unless it's me though, of course, because you

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Speaker 1: know never of course. Um, So, I have a story

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Speaker 1: behind what I'm drinking today. So I'm drinking a sake

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Speaker 1: called Perfect Snow and it's an unfiltered cold sake. And

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Speaker 1: when me and one of my exces, who I'm going

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Speaker 1: to talk about later in this episode, we were dating.

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Speaker 1: We loved this time, like if we on a menu,

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Speaker 1: we would order it. And I've been looking for it

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Speaker 1: for years and I could never find it. But today

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Speaker 1: we're recording this kind of early for when it's going

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Speaker 1: to come out. So right now it's Janu and believe

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Speaker 1: you me, I'm going to find a way to see Scream.

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Speaker 1: Believe you me. It came out today. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: a drive in. It's gonna be really scary, actually, I think.

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Speaker 1: But I So, I was trying to stock up. Georgia

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Speaker 1: shuts down if there's any hint of snow. So I

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Speaker 1: was trying to stock up, and I went to the

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Speaker 1: liquor store because I've been out of liquor, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, and I saw I happened to see

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Speaker 1: this sack that I've been looking for for years, and

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Speaker 1: I just I just bought one, and I thought it

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Speaker 1: was perfect with the name Perfect Snow, and it's got

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Speaker 1: a nice well probably people think it's gross, but it's

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Speaker 1: the snowy texture and color and I'm drinking it at

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Speaker 1: the glass you gave me the Last of Us two glass,

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Speaker 1: because we're talking about the Last of Us two. Yes again,

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Speaker 1: she's saying that to me. I think, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: mostly me complaining and talking and Samantha being very supportive,

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Speaker 1: so I appreciate that. Okay, So I do want to say,

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Speaker 1: I know I've spoiled this before. I've talked about it

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Speaker 1: a lot, but if you've somehow avoided spoilers for the game,

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty game and the Last of Us two,

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Speaker 1: I am going to spoil some things, not super major,

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Speaker 1: but some things. And then I think some things I'm

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Speaker 1: not necessarily going to spoil, but the implication is there

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Speaker 1: and you can probably figure out. So just to say, alright,

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Speaker 1: So I feel like if I don't discuss the Last

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Speaker 1: of Us to every couple of months, then I might

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Speaker 1: fade into dust or something. So I, as I said,

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Speaker 1: to some of you who who checked in on me

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Speaker 1: over New Year's I was sobbing playing this game on

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Speaker 1: New Year's Eve, absolutely at a part that wasn't that sad.

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Speaker 1: Actually it did feel very appropriate, a very appropriate way

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Speaker 1: to close out. I'm doing the whole play through. I'm

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Speaker 1: about halfway through right now on my PlayStation five, which

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Speaker 1: I did get. It took me some yes and heavy yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: but this is actually this whole thing me wanting to

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Speaker 1: talk about this again is brought on by a friendly

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Speaker 1: tipsy debate between me and a friend and coworker of ours, Tyler,

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Speaker 1: at this now infamous holiday work party that we had. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so we talked about it, Yes, at the end of

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Speaker 1: before a Macrod, before we knew how bad it was.

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Speaker 1: It happened before that, but it was outdoor. It was outdoors.

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Speaker 1: But looking back it is a little like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but don't regret it. Yes, And as we said, and

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Speaker 1: I think two episodes now, Samantha and I were triggered

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Speaker 1: by this party, but I did actually have a really

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Speaker 1: good time for the most part. I was just really

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed by insecurities and I think not hanging out with

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Speaker 1: that many people and so long. Yeah, it workspace is

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Speaker 1: completely different too, just as a reminder, because you do

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Speaker 1: feel like there's a performative level, especially as hosts, like

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Speaker 1: what it needs to be seeing what we need to

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Speaker 1: do and how we need to be seen. Also why

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Speaker 1: it took me three times to leave the whole thing

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Speaker 1: because I kept going to the wrong places and leaving

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Speaker 1: behind things that I needed. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a really good point to make, because there

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Speaker 1: was definitely there was a point in the night where

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Speaker 1: I was looking at three of our pretty big bosses

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Speaker 1: were there and I was watching them talk to other

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Speaker 1: other people that are on our level, and I had

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Speaker 1: the thought I should go and talk to them because

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Speaker 1: we Unfortunately, studies do show that that helps you, um

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Speaker 1: get career boost and I decided not to because I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to. Also, I was a little tipsy, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, not a good idea. One day, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to talk to our boss about the Bradley Cooper

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Speaker 1: Christmas card I made that probably freaked him out, but

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Speaker 1: not not no, but I'm sure he's seen it. Oh gosh.

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Speaker 1: The listeners are like, what are you talking about? Short?

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Speaker 1: Let me shorten this story so my mom for a

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Speaker 1: while got in her head that I should marry Bradley Paper.

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Speaker 1: I know that sounds weird, but he showed up at

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Speaker 1: our office once and I didn't notice him because he's

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Speaker 1: friends with one of our bosses. And I told her

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Speaker 1: about it, and I think she had a crush on

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Speaker 1: him at the time, and she was living through me,

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Speaker 1: but she would randomly text me at nine pm on

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Speaker 1: Tuesday and be like, have you talked to Bradley Cooper yet?

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Speaker 1: I'm like no. So we got us sponsor that wanted wanted,

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Speaker 1: because this was when I was hosting Sminthy Solo, wanted

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Speaker 1: me to printed a holiday card. I wasn't dating anybody.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have a pet. So I photoshopped an image

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Speaker 1: of me and Bradley Cooper together and I got a

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Speaker 1: hundred copies of it and it looks great. It looks fantastic,

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Speaker 1: and I gave them out to a bunch of my

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Speaker 1: friends and I wrote personalized messages on the back. My

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Speaker 1: mom actually believed it was real for a second. I'd

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Speaker 1: be like, no, Mom, I would have told you. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: I've always wondered what he thought about his friend being

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Speaker 1: featured on this kind of creepy holiday card. Um. I

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Speaker 1: have no real opinion on probably Cooper, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: but I did think it was funny. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was funny, but he's probably weirded out by it. That

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Speaker 1: was not the night to approach him, I think anyway. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So it was the end of the night at this

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Speaker 1: party and I was pretty tipsy, and my friend Tyler

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Speaker 1: and I got into this debate about the last of

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Speaker 1: Us two, and he was saying he thought Ellie's revenge

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Speaker 1: story made her quote irredeemable, and oh der apologies Tyler

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Speaker 1: for randomly shouting dig two graves far too loudly, far

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Speaker 1: too excitedly, as if I had definitely won an argument,

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Speaker 1: because that's a reference both to the idea that revenge

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Speaker 1: will end up killing you two um, but also it's

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Speaker 1: an achievement you get in the game. If he beat

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Speaker 1: it on grounded, he probably doesn't know that he might,

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Speaker 1: but it was certainly a random pic to just shout.

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Speaker 1: And then I went into a whole thing about how

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Speaker 1: it's not supposed to make you feel good. This game

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Speaker 1: isn't supposed to make you feel good, How it's supposed

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Speaker 1: to make you feel empathy and regret and like face

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Speaker 1: your violent decisions that you made and perhaps that you

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Speaker 1: didn't want to make as a player, but you did.

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Speaker 1: Um but too often that these games are about senseless

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Speaker 1: violence and you don't ever kind of face the music,

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Speaker 1: as they say, and how I've never played a game

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Speaker 1: that made me feel that way. Blah blah blah. You've

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Speaker 1: all heard it from me a million times. I did

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Speaker 1: not make my point well because tipsiness. I would just

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Speaker 1: point at somebody to be like, they agree with me,

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Speaker 1: poor Tyler. Anyway, after that, one thing I kept thinking

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Speaker 1: about and that I've heard a lot of men allude

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Speaker 1: to and they critique this game, and something we've actually

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Speaker 1: talked about is how we treat women's vengeance stories versus men's. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And just to be clear, I always had to reiterate

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Speaker 1: this because it's okay to not like things and to

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Speaker 1: have critiques as long as they aren't sexist, racist, able, this, homophobic,

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Speaker 1: what have you, the type of critiques that were largely

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Speaker 1: lobbed at this game. I think Tyler was very legitimate

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Speaker 1: in his points. I just want to put that out there.

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Speaker 1: That's total of the sexless races, able us or homophobic No.

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Speaker 1: I think he was just sorry it didn't make me

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Speaker 1: feel good, and that's totally fair. You love it for

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Speaker 1: the sobbings and feeling like being in the depths of despair, right,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't like that, and that's again totally and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna agree with them. That's not one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite emotions, right, right, right, right, So I just want

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Speaker 1: to put that out there. However, I do think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting how many times I've heard this argument that Ellie,

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Speaker 1: who is the main character that you play in the

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Speaker 1: last of us two, she was sort of the I

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Speaker 1: don't want to see side character, but kind of side

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Speaker 1: character of the first one that you're protecting. Um that

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Speaker 1: Ellie and the second one is horrible for what she does,

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Speaker 1: that she should have just been more thankful to Joel.

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Speaker 1: Her kind of violent, angry caretaker that you play in

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Speaker 1: the first one. We don't necessarily see his vengeance story

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Speaker 1: after the death of his daughter in the first one,

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Speaker 1: but it is implied that it occurred, and that was

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Speaker 1: horribly traumatizing for his younger brother, Tommy, the person Joel

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Speaker 1: claimed he did these actions for. As the player, you

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Speaker 1: know that it's got about twenty twenty years of bodies

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Speaker 1: and the wake between what happens when it starts and

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Speaker 1: when you actually start playing this character, because that's how

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Speaker 1: long the period is a period of time and they

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Speaker 1: live in this you know, harsh, cruel world, and through

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Speaker 1: Joel and his actions, we can infer just how awful

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Speaker 1: everything is and and Joel how he responded to it.

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Speaker 1: So when you meet Ellie in the first one, she's

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Speaker 1: a contrast of that. She's young, she's innocent, she still

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Speaker 1: will kill you, but she's much more curious and hopeful.

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Speaker 1: She's fourteen, so you know it's easier to get behind

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Speaker 1: violence to protect her that. Plus, you know she is

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Speaker 1: immune and the key to the vaccine that will hopefully

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Speaker 1: end this zombie apocalypse in this game. So at the end,

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Speaker 1: when it turns out using Ellie's immunity to manufacture a

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Speaker 1: vaccine would kill her, and Joel, who is now attached

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Speaker 1: to Ellie and use her as a surrogate daughter, does

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Speaker 1: not want to go through the loss of another daughter,

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Speaker 1: slaughters everyone at this Firefly, which is sort of an

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Speaker 1: organization sometimes labeled a terrorist group that is trying to

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Speaker 1: find a cure um. He kills everybody at this Firefly outpost,

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Speaker 1: and he lies to Ellie when she wakes up, telling

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Speaker 1: her there was no cure, there plenty like her, that

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Speaker 1: he didn't kill anybody. The ending is from her point

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Speaker 1: of view, where she admits her survivor's guilt. Um that

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Speaker 1: she's still quote waiting for her turn is presented very

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Speaker 1: ambiguously as both Ellie and the audience are unsure of

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Speaker 1: how to feel about what happened, and all this sets

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Speaker 1: in motion what happens in the sequel. So in the

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Speaker 1: second one, Ellie learns of Joel's lies and their relationship

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Speaker 1: is almost completely destroyed. She is angry he took away

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Speaker 1: the choice for her, a chance for her life to

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Speaker 1: quote matter In her words, Joel is unrepetant. This is

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Speaker 1: complicated for a lot of reasons. Ellie would have consented,

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Speaker 1: but she's also under age. She would have consented to

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Speaker 1: the surgery that would have killed her, but does that

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Speaker 1: matter in the zombie apocalypse and Joel isn't her guardian?

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Speaker 1: But again, Zombie Apocalypse, I think it's important to remember

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Speaker 1: she's a kid in a very traumatizing world who was

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Speaker 1: lied to by a man she hasn't known very long.

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Speaker 1: Not to diminish their relationship. But she's a teenage girl,

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Speaker 1: and I think her response is valid. How many of

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Speaker 1: us have had falling outs for less than being lied

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Speaker 1: to about like your whole thing and killing everybody that

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Speaker 1: you believed in anyway. And yet my brother's reaction to

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Speaker 1: all this was essentially what a bit? Don't you know

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Speaker 1: what he did for you? She didn't ask for that.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a selfless deed all for her, but it

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Speaker 1: was at least in part for him. He didn't want

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Speaker 1: to deal with the grief and trauma. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that's wrong. He did kill a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: That's not great, but I'm not saying that he was

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Speaker 1: wrong to want to keep that. But it wasn't selfless.

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Speaker 1: And now she Ellie has to live with the fact

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Speaker 1: that there could have been a vaccine and there isn't

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Speaker 1: and can't be. It is implied. And yes, I'm not

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Speaker 1: condoning violence, but several of Ellie's worst transgussions are things

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Speaker 1: she learned from Joel, are things that were accidents. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's part of the point. I think she rejects Joel's

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Speaker 1: violent actions but ends up doing them herself in her

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Speaker 1: quest for revenge. The game doesn't condone her actions either

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Speaker 1: over and over again. The messaging is that revenge is pointless.

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Speaker 1: It's a pointless cycle that only results in death. Playing

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Speaker 1: out on personal levels and on larger social scales. It

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Speaker 1: never ends. Oh, I never ends. Will play it over

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Speaker 1: and over again. I know. I think I'm on my

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Speaker 1: life to play through what ridiculous. So it's just it's

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Speaker 1: just hard for me not to think that if the

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Speaker 1: roles were versed in the second one and we were

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Speaker 1: still playing Joel, the your action wouldn't be He's irredeemable.

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Speaker 1: It might be he's dark or an anti hero. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we would still be upset. But because we're so used

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Speaker 1: to seeing white male rage and violence in the name

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Speaker 1: of a girl or woman justified and glorified, we grant

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Speaker 1: these characters like Joel more leeway. I think, I think

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Speaker 1: we're much more willing to be like, wow, that was

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Speaker 1: a terrible thing he just did. But I get it,

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Speaker 1: and we're not so likely to do that for female characters,

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Speaker 1: for women are girls. At one point, Ellie even says

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Speaker 1: if it were you or I, Joel would be halfway

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Speaker 1: to Seattle already, implying Joel would have done exactly what

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Speaker 1: she did, and he absolutely would have. That's what I

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Speaker 1: think he absolutely would have. And it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: terrible cycle. When the Ellie manages to sum up break

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Speaker 1: but not after losing pretty much everything. It's certainly inspiring

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Speaker 1: many to want to seek revenge of their own. It

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Speaker 1: reminds me of kill Bill, where she's like, one day

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Speaker 1: you'll grew up. The assassin is saying to the young girl,

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Speaker 1: one day you'll grew up and you can try to

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Speaker 1: get revenge on me. That that's what it kind of

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Speaker 1: felt like in my opinion. I think there's so much

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Speaker 1: we could talk about there and and we have talked

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Speaker 1: about women in revenge and in revenge movies. I just

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Speaker 1: think we're so much more accepting of male violence than

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Speaker 1: female violence. And I don't think again, I don't condone violence,

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Speaker 1: but that is it just gives me pause. And I

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Speaker 1: think also a commentary on a lot of the female violence,

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Speaker 1: and not necessarily with this one. This is a whole

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Speaker 1: different game when it comes to because it was the

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Speaker 1: person she's going after is another woman, but typically in

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Speaker 1: other revenged things is because of some type of violent

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Speaker 1: act acted onto a woman and or her family that

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Speaker 1: propelled choice that and that in itself is a commentary

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Speaker 1: on men in many ways. Now, I think that's a

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Speaker 1: good point, because I mean, this is such a deeper

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Speaker 1: thing we could get into, but it feels very of

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Speaker 1: the still kind of women are possessions. Men have to

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Speaker 1: protect them, and other men are going to hurt this

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Speaker 1: possession of this guy to hurt him. But it's not

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Speaker 1: about her at all. It's just that she's a thing

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Speaker 1: that they can hurt to get to the man. And

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Speaker 1: I know we talked about that when we did our

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Speaker 1: episode on Survival Horror. How I think so many of

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Speaker 1: them Mossley dudes who are mad about the last of

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Speaker 1: us two for reasons like I outlined that are I

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Speaker 1: would say, not legitimate critiques. They're just mad. They were

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Speaker 1: willing in the first one, you're protecting this little girl,

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Speaker 1: and even though she is powerful and scary, she's still

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Speaker 1: kind of the secondary character that you're protecting as the

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Speaker 1: main male playable character. And they were down with that, right.

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Speaker 1: But then when we're like, you know, now you're gonna

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Speaker 1: play her, they were not down that right. That's not

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Speaker 1: the only piece of that puzzle, but I do think

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Speaker 1: it is a piece because it we're just so used

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Speaker 1: to justifying violence with men in the name of women

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Speaker 1: that that was totally cool, and people felt good about

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Speaker 1: killing all those people at the end of the first one,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, it's kind of a conversation about what

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Speaker 1: they see as hero hero actions, and of course that

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Speaker 1: in itself is a male label in its entirety. So again,

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Speaker 1: if we really wanted to go real deep, there's a

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Speaker 1: reason why those kind of revenge films, john Wick films,

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Speaker 1: all of those things are very much incomes with like, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is manly, this is what we do when women

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Speaker 1: do it, they're crazy easy and it's psychotic, and this

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Speaker 1: is unnecessarily violent exactly. Yeah. Yeah, she's irredeemable. How could

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Speaker 1: I play someone as terrible as her? Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: am very very excited and nervous to see what people

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Speaker 1: think about the show, the HBOS show that is coming

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Speaker 1: this year. They just wrapped filming and the second season,

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Speaker 1: which they've already an ounce, which I was assuming will

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Speaker 1: be the second game, whether or not we see this

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Speaker 1: conversation play out, and how people are going to feel

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Speaker 1: about a revenge story that is a tragedy that condemns revenge,

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Speaker 1: because that's another thing we should say. Like in the

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Speaker 1: first one, I feel like the creators of the game,

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Speaker 1: I don't think what Joel did is good, but they

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Speaker 1: leave it. So it's like, it's hard. It's a hard

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Speaker 1: decision because you don't want Ellie to die, but also

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Speaker 1: he killed all those people and destroy the chance for

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Speaker 1: a vaccine, so it's not happy. It's not a like fun,

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Speaker 1: easy decision. But it's not like the game was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Joel's right. It was very much more like m was

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Speaker 1: he right? So I'm interested to see how that plays out,

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Speaker 1: especially in terms of I was just thinking about how

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Speaker 1: the last game of Throne season played out and how

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Speaker 1: everybody thought Aria Start could have never killed the Night King,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, did we watch the same show? But anyway,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited, slash nervous, And also just one little point

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Speaker 1: I want to add in here. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: most ridiculous, petty things I've had feelings that I've had

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Speaker 1: in a while. For some reason, I got like I

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Speaker 1: felt like a spike of anger at the thought of

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Speaker 1: my ex telling people that he was already in on

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Speaker 1: this trade. If it gets popular, here's somebody who's like that,

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Speaker 1: But at the second you probably will. You know it's true.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, I need to tell him

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Speaker 1: about what happens in the second one, so it doesn't

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Speaker 1: make sense. I'm like, I want to tell everything about

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Speaker 1: this game that he's missed since we broke up, but

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Speaker 1: also I don't want him to say he knew about

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Speaker 1: it before. He'll call you out. Don't don't speak out

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Speaker 1: of our dude, I'm waiting from watching watching No, this

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Speaker 1: is me being very, very silly, but I do think

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Speaker 1: that's funny these as as you and I were discussing earlier, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: relationships are are weird. Yes, he also gave me a

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Speaker 1: Last of Us big magnet that's on my refrigerator, so

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Speaker 1: I think of it. I think of him with that often.

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Speaker 1: We'll see. There's a lot of things that we need

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Speaker 1: to see how they play out. But in the meantime, cheers, cheers, boo. Yes,

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Speaker 1: thank you for letting me talk about the Last of

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Speaker 1: Us two again. I'm sure in three months we'll be

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Speaker 1: back some more. But in the meantime, listeners, if you

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Speaker 1: have any questions for things we should talk about or

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Speaker 1: should be talking about, you can email us, our email us,

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Speaker 1: stuffit Media mom stuff at i heeart media dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at moms podcast or

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and stuff I Never Told You things. It's

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Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina. Yes, and we need

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Speaker 1: to have our join in this happy hour because I

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Speaker 1: feel like he already knows everything from the last of

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Speaker 1: us as well just from our episode. Christina, you'll be

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Speaker 1: back for this one. Yes. Sorry for the spoilers and

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Speaker 1: thanks to you listeners for listening Stuff I Never Told

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Speaker 1: You the protection of I Heart Radio. For more. Podcast

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Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio is the Hear Radio app, Apple

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Speaker 1: podcast or Revery listen to your favorite shows