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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace blowing kisses, sending love signals,

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Speaker 1: secret signals, and court while each of them are charged

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Speaker 1: with four counts of homicide. Really, I'm talking about the

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Speaker 1: parents a school shooter Athan Crumley. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends and Inside Edition. Their son is accused of

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Speaker 1: killing four students during a school rampage in Michigan last November,

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Speaker 1: and the parents are facing their own serious charges of

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Speaker 1: manslaughter for allegedly allowing him access to a gun. Now,

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Speaker 1: prosecutors want them to stop acting all lovey dovey in courts.

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Speaker 1: It started when James Crumbley was seen mouthing I love

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Speaker 1: you to his wife Jennifer at a court hearing last December,

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Speaker 1: following their dramatic arrest at a warehou house in Detroit

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Speaker 1: where they were hiding out. Crumbly looked on the verge

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Speaker 1: of tears. Jennifer kept stealing glances in his direction. Then,

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Speaker 1: during a recent court hearing via zoom, Jennifer tries to

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Speaker 1: communicate with her hands. Next, she waves and then tells

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Speaker 1: her husband she loves him. The prosecutors say the romantic

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Speaker 1: moments must come to an end immediately. The courtroom is

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Speaker 1: not a place for blowing kisses and sending secret signals.

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Speaker 1: This is a time for families to pursue justice, and

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Speaker 1: those families are the parents and the loved ones of

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Speaker 1: the students that were murdered at a public high school.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine you take your children to school that morning,

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Speaker 1: or you put them on the bus, and then the

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Speaker 1: next thing you know, you get urgent texts, You may

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Speaker 1: see a flash on the news. Your child is dead

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Speaker 1: from a school shooter. And by all accounts, the parents

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Speaker 1: had plenty of warning. His parents, Ethan Crumley's parents had

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Speaker 1: plenty of warning that there was something very, very wrong.

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Speaker 1: And then you go to court to follow the case

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Speaker 1: for your child was murdered, and you have to watch

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Speaker 1: these two mouthing kissy kissy in the courtroom. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine how angry they feel. I think anger is one

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Speaker 1: of the stages of grief. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. For those of

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Speaker 1: you that are not familiar with what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: the school shooter, Ethan Crumley, take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: cut twenty nine from our friends My TV Home Fox

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Speaker 1: be on the lookout. A BOLO alert has been issued

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Speaker 1: for James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of Ethan Crumbley,

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Speaker 1: they accused Oxford High School shooter. Now, we did have

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Speaker 1: our reporter confirmed through two police departments that a statewide

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Speaker 1: BOLO was issued for the Crumblies just here on Friday afternoon,

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Speaker 1: hours after they were charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection

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Speaker 1: to the Oxford High School shootings. Now a description of

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Speaker 1: the vehicle or a last possibly known location was released.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who sees the Crumblies, they are pitcher here on

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Speaker 1: your screen in that left hand box, your urge to

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Speaker 1: call police. The Crumblies were charged just today with four

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Speaker 1: accounts of involuntary manslaughter, while some argue the parents should

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Speaker 1: be charged with much much more because in many jurisdictions,

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Speaker 1: involuntary manslaughter can carry a sentence of probation. Yes, that's

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Speaker 1: true with me and I'll star panel to make sense

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Speaker 1: of what we know right now. Darryl Cohen, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer joining us out of Atlanta. Former felony prosecutor now

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Speaker 1: defense attorney. Doctor Jillian Peterson forensic psycho bologists, professor criminology

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Speaker 1: at Hameline University in Saint Paul and an expert on

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Speaker 1: mass shootings. The author of the Violence Project How to

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Speaker 1: Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic. Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, Lecturer,

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Speaker 1: University Florida, host of a hit series Shattered Souls podcast.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen, Clinical Emeritus Professor Pathology, University Michigan,

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Speaker 1: author of Death Investigation in America. Jessica Dupnak, reporter Fox

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Speaker 1: to Detroit, who has been on this case from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning. Can I just ask this, Jessica, how sickening

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Speaker 1: is it for the victims families in court to watch

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Speaker 1: Ethan Cromley's parents blow kisses to each other, not to

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Speaker 1: their son, not supporting him, but to each other. And

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Speaker 1: keeping in mind, these are the parents that had all

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Speaker 1: sorts of alarms and bombs going off in the background,

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Speaker 1: but they did nothing to stop their son. These are

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Speaker 1: also the parents, to my understanding, that drained the bank

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Speaker 1: account of three grand and planned to leave him their

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Speaker 1: son behind and go to Florida darragus horses. So how

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Speaker 1: is that affecting everyone in court? To watch these two

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Speaker 1: la law in court? It's disgusting. We were there and

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Speaker 1: it was one of those things where you watch it

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Speaker 1: and playback and you're saying yourself, did they really just

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Speaker 1: sign to one another and blow kisses? I mean, it

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Speaker 1: totally demeans the entire process, let alone for these families

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Speaker 1: of these children. It's unbelievable. And it doesn't shock me

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Speaker 1: though now knowing the history of this family and just

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Speaker 1: some of the despicable behavior that has come out in court.

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Speaker 1: You know, I want to go to you, doctor Jillian Peterson,

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Speaker 1: forensic psychologist Arthur the Violence Project, how to stop at

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Speaker 1: mass shooting epidemic. And I know your expertise, but I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you about just propriety. You have dead

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Speaker 1: children gunned down at school, just starting their lives, and

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Speaker 1: then their families have to watch these two salivating over

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Speaker 1: each other in court. You know, somehow, doctor Peterson, I

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Speaker 1: would feel it more acceptable if the mom or the

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Speaker 1: dad mauth I love you to their son, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to each other. Now that's just me, but this is

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Speaker 1: really rubbing me the wrong way, doctor Peterson. You know,

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Speaker 1: I agree, it's so wildly inappropriate. It's just hard to

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Speaker 1: imagine what they're thinking. And if they take this that

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Speaker 1: sort of unseriously, they don't understand what these families have

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Speaker 1: been through. If they don't understand what this court process

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Speaker 1: means to the families, the victims themselves, their son, and

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Speaker 1: it just kind of speaks to their mindset. I think

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Speaker 1: of how bizarre they are sort of as people, as parents,

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Speaker 1: as a family, and the whole thing leading up to

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Speaker 1: this point. It's hard to understand. And then their behavior

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Speaker 1: in court is just kind of the icing on the

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Speaker 1: cake where it's just absolutely unbelievable. You know, Daryl Cohen,

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Speaker 1: I introduced you earlier, Correct, Darryl former prosecutor and now

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer in Atlanta. Correct, you did, indeed, Daryl,

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Speaker 1: so many times in court I would see parents of

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Speaker 1: the defendant and the defendant could be a killer. Just

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Speaker 1: before we went to air, I was talking to you

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Speaker 1: about a judge that you and I share and I

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Speaker 1: think you prosecuted and defended in front of him, and

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Speaker 1: a particular case I prosecuted where I think was the

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Speaker 1: youngest murderer ever in city Atlanta, Fulton County to be

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Speaker 1: tried as an adult. Now, before you hate me, Daryl Cohen,

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Speaker 1: this child was about six three and he ran into

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Speaker 1: a pawn shop guns a blazing. He killed either one

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Speaker 1: or two people, and he permanently paralyzed another still in

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Speaker 1: a wheelchair today, for a handful of dope ropes, gold chains,

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Speaker 1: and then ran out. He had two accomplices. I think

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Speaker 1: that we're seventeen or eighteen twin brothers, I might add,

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Speaker 1: which was a whole host of problems for me as

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor. But I started with him. We severed the cases.

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Speaker 1: I severed them because I didn't want him tried together.

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Speaker 1: I severed the cases, tried him first, and I don't

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Speaker 1: have any problem with it. So when you look at

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Speaker 1: the defendant, even though he is a juvenile, you look

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Speaker 1: at what he did. I don't have a problem typically

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Speaker 1: with the parents showing up to court to support their son,

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Speaker 1: even if he's a devil from hell mouthing I love you,

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Speaker 1: trying to ask the sheriff. Can I just taught to

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Speaker 1: him for one minute, showing their love. I would absolutely never, ever,

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Speaker 1: you know, abandoned my children, no matter what they did.

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Speaker 1: But for the parents to be drooling on each other

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Speaker 1: in court, that's a whole, a whole another can of worms. Daryl, Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this is unbelievable to me because when you go to court.

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Speaker 1: You can't change what happened before. What you can change

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Speaker 1: is a perception of reality. And the parents should have

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Speaker 1: been there reaching out to the victim's family, not huggy

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Speaker 1: huggy kissing mouth. I love you. I love you to

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Speaker 1: the son that works for me, and I'm right there

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Speaker 1: with you, But I love you to each other. It's

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Speaker 1: as if the poor victim's family has nothing. That's just

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Speaker 1: no big deal. We're watching a movie. They can't tell

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Speaker 1: their child I love you, you know, Darryl. I should probably,

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Speaker 1: you know, tell this to the shrink. And I say

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Speaker 1: that in a loving, caring way, Doctor Peterson. After I

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Speaker 1: do a program like the one we're doing right now,

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Speaker 1: I have to get in the car and drive to

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Speaker 1: the school where the twins are in school. Make sure

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Speaker 1: it's not in a lockdown or some horrible thing hasn't happened.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is the way this has affected so

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Speaker 1: many people, this school shooting. I mean, Jessica, dupe, jessicam

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Speaker 1: I saying your last name correctly. It's kind of a

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Speaker 1: bad feeling. I'm not Nope, you got it. I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy that rarely happens. Jessica joining us from Fox Too.

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Speaker 1: They're in Detroit. The day that this happened was a

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Speaker 1: day I will never get. Take us into our cut

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Speaker 1: for our friend Pierre Thomas at ABC. Student John Edwards

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Speaker 1: describing the chaos to our affiliate w x y Z pay.

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Speaker 1: We hear our principal, mister Wolf shouting, Alice, lockdown, Alice, lockdown,

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Speaker 1: and then we heard the gun shots in the class,

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Speaker 1: and so we locked down, turned the lights off. Our

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Speaker 1: teacher got paper taped over the window on the door

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Speaker 1: and got his two big tables and barricaded the door.

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Speaker 1: It's just scared. I was praying for, you know, my safety,

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Speaker 1: my friend's safety, you know, everyone's safety. Edwards able to

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Speaker 1: call his mother and I could hear the hear in

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Speaker 1: his voice, and I told him, I said, maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: on my way. I've never been so scared in my life.

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Speaker 1: School officials left. Really, of course, I'm shocked. That's a devastagent,

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Speaker 1: you know, um doctor Peterson. When I'm hearing that, my

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Speaker 1: eyes just fill up with tears, and I got chilled

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Speaker 1: because I can't help think about my own children, who

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Speaker 1: I think are safe and tucked away in school. That's

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Speaker 1: what I think, and at their school it's locked down,

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Speaker 1: you can't get in, the windows are a lot, the

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Speaker 1: doors are locked, there is security, the whole shebang. But

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Speaker 1: this threat was from with Anne and there's not a

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Speaker 1: darned thing a parent can do about it. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: one thing we've found in researching these cases. Of course,

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Speaker 1: there's the absolute devastating loss for the families that lost

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Speaker 1: their own children, but then the ripple effect of this

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Speaker 1: tragedy just it goes really across the country. There's the

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Speaker 1: kids who were locked down in the school, which that

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Speaker 1: has lifelong effects of being terrified that you were going

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Speaker 1: to be shot. There's their parents and families unsure if

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Speaker 1: they were okay or not. And I agree, I'm a

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Speaker 1: mother of three kids. I have the same sort of

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Speaker 1: dut reaction where parents across the country kind of feel

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Speaker 1: the fear and suddenly their school feels like an unsafe

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Speaker 1: place to send their children. And then we saw hundreds

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Speaker 1: of copycat threats in the weeks following this, where schools

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Speaker 1: were sort of shutting down and locking down on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis across the country. I mean, the fear and

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Speaker 1: the anxiety and the trauma this cause of people across

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Speaker 1: the country. This one incident. It's really hard to grasp

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Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace. So much has been happening

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Speaker 1: in the case since it first citizens shootings first went down,

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to get stuck on the parents,

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Speaker 1: the Cromley parents playing kissy facing court, but that is concerning.

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Speaker 1: I want you to hear our cut too. This is

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Speaker 1: raw classroom video from the classroom the day of the

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Speaker 1: mass shooting. Our cut too. Yeah come out, yeah, he said,

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Speaker 1: season time. We're not we are we gonna take that

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Speaker 1: risk right out. We're not taking that rice right out. Yeah, bro,

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Speaker 1: he said, Bro, red flags ring my home. So hold

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Speaker 1: on your phone. You were hearing students climbing out of

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Speaker 1: a window they see a police officer. It's just this

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Speaker 1: hurts me hearing them scramble trying to save their own lives.

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Speaker 1: Straight back to you, Jessica, to tell us what happened

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Speaker 1: that day. I mean we got there. I mean, as

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Speaker 1: we talked about, there's so many false alarms when it

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Speaker 1: comes to these threats, but when we got there, we

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Speaker 1: knew it was real. I mean it was just total chaos.

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Speaker 1: I mean that we were staged where families were being

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Speaker 1: reunited and just being able to see these parents after

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Speaker 1: hours reuniting with their kids just in a daze, you know,

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Speaker 1: as if you don't even know what they've seen, the

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Speaker 1: bloodied hallways, the bathrooms, and you could just see it

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Speaker 1: on their faces that this is a stain that's going

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Speaker 1: to hurt these kids forever. And it was just total chaos.

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Speaker 1: And then within twenty four hours a source told me

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Speaker 1: that heads are going to roll, and I didn't understand

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Speaker 1: what that meant. But now we go back to all

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Speaker 1: the signs that led up to this, that led up

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Speaker 1: to this fifteen year old coming into this school. It's

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Speaker 1: just as insult to injury to know that this absolutely

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Speaker 1: could have been prevented by many people involved. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's sickening. The victims, Hannah Saint, Julianna Tate Meyer, Madison Baldwin,

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Speaker 1: Justin Schilling, as young as fourteen years old, gundown dead

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Speaker 1: in their school. Then seven other students were shot and lived.

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Speaker 1: A seventeen year old girl gunshot wound to the chest, critical,

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old girl gunshot wound left chest and neck.

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Speaker 1: Seventeen year old girl gunshot wound to the neck. Fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old boy shot, fifteen year old boy gunshot wound

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Speaker 1: to the left leg, seventeen year old boy gunshot wound

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Speaker 1: to the hip, a forty seven year old teacher gunshot

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Speaker 1: wound to the left shoulder. I want to go out

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Speaker 1: to special guests joining us, Doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen, Clinical

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Speaker 1: Emeritus Professor Pathology, University Michigan. Doctor Jensen, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us with the murder victims Hannitate Madison and

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Speaker 1: justin how long do you believe they would have been

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Speaker 1: aware after the shooting of what was going on around them? Typically,

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Speaker 1: with gunshot wounds that are fatal in either striking in

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Speaker 1: the order or heart or lungs, a person has conscious

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Speaker 1: pain and suffering for at least thirty seconds or so.

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Speaker 1: It takes that long for the oxygen content to decline

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Speaker 1: enough for the person to go into a coma. And

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Speaker 1: so typically an individual who have about thirty seconds worth

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Speaker 1: of oxygen and consciousness in a gunshot wound that basically

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Speaker 1: spares the head and neck area. And I would like

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Speaker 1: to comment that even wounds to the stremities are particularly

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Speaker 1: potentially fatal if they strike major arteries, and that there

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Speaker 1: is not immediate medical care available such as the thermal

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Speaker 1: artery and the leg of course, the jugular veine obviously.

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Speaker 1: And I've noticed, doctor Jenson, that several of these victims

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Speaker 1: were shot in the neck, and I wonder if the

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Speaker 1: perp was trying to shoot them in the head and

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Speaker 1: got them in the neck. But there are shootings, for instance,

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Speaker 1: when you take a GSW gunshot wound to say, your chest,

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Speaker 1: and you don't bleed out immediately, but you're lung slowly,

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Speaker 1: are filling up with blood and spitting it up. It's

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Speaker 1: coming out your nose in your mouth. That takes a

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Speaker 1: little bit longer to die, Doctor Jensen. Yes, if the

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Speaker 1: wound itself is not fatal, but then there's blood or

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage that accumulates and into the airways. The person could

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Speaker 1: dive from prolonged to sixty or a lack of oxygen

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Speaker 1: because of the obstruction of the airways. And imagining as

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Speaker 1: young as fourteen, Hannah lying in the floor, knowing some

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Speaker 1: what what's happening around her, everybody running and screaming, her

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Speaker 1: parents are there, nobody's there with her, and she dies

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Speaker 1: in the floor of the school like that. Why And

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Speaker 1: of course, and I wouldcall this Karen Smith, Karen Forensic

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Speaker 1: expert and lecturer, host of Shattered Soul's podcast. Karen, I

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Speaker 1: remember the processing it took. Let's just say, on my

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Speaker 1: first triple homicide, that was a lot of processing the scene.

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Speaker 1: Then my best friend in the DA's office, who you

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Speaker 1: will remember, Darryl al Dickson. I remember the days and

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Speaker 1: days it took to process the scene at the Fulton

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Speaker 1: County Courthouse shooting where there were mass victims, shooting like this,

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Speaker 1: Karen Smith is that's a very difficult crime scene explained.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult on a number of levels, not just

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Speaker 1: the evidence. The investigators are having to digest what they're

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Speaker 1: seeing too, and it's you know, I've had five people

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Speaker 1: shot in one place. That was the most for me.

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Speaker 1: And I can tell you we were there for days.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just collecting the bullet casing, taking blood samples,

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Speaker 1: taking photographs, looking through that viewfinder to see what you're seeing,

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Speaker 1: photographing the victims where they lay, photographing and diagramming and

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Speaker 1: all of the evidence that we have to do. It's

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Speaker 1: actually processing it and actually having the wherewithal to put

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Speaker 1: that aside to do your job, and you know, for

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Speaker 1: the parents, for the victims, for the students. For the

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Speaker 1: people who survived this is not going to just go away.

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Speaker 1: They're going to carry this for the rest of their lives,

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Speaker 1: like you do, Nancy with your cases, like I do

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Speaker 1: with mine, like I'm sure the doctor does with kids.

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Speaker 1: This is systemic. This was a failure on so many

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Speaker 1: different levels, and that just adds to the frustration and

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Speaker 1: the anger and actually the rage that comes along with

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Speaker 1: something like this. Yeah, Karen Smith, we're finding out more

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Speaker 1: and more and more about what the parents should have known.

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Speaker 1: If they didn't know, they should have known. You know,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you this, doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen joining

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Speaker 1: us out of Michigan. Doctor Jenson, I have no idea

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Speaker 1: how many autopsies you've done, how many dead bodies you've seen.

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Speaker 1: How does it affect you or does it affect you

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Speaker 1: differently when the victim is a child like in this case, well,

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Speaker 1: you typically try to keep an objective of opinion and

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Speaker 1: your emotions under under check. Certainly, young infants and children

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Speaker 1: are especially tragic because they're so defenseless, end and dependent

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Speaker 1: upon others. And but you know it, really it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter if the if the individuals you know thirty two,

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Speaker 1: twenty two or twelve. I mean, it's still a light

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Speaker 1: and each life carries the tragedy of loss to the

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Speaker 1: family and the loved ones. Right now, I'm very disturbed

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Speaker 1: about what could have been done to save these lives,

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Speaker 1: and in my mind it all rests squarely on the

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Speaker 1: shoulders of the parents, Ethan Cromley's parents who looked but

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Speaker 1: didn't see. Also things that happened at the school. For instance,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut eleven wdiv Madison, Tate,

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Speaker 1: Hannah and today Justin all dead after a fifteen year

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Speaker 1: old student at Oxford High went on a rampage yesterday

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Speaker 1: with seven others, including a teacher, wounded. Certainly you want

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Speaker 1: to stand all the charms against you, yes. Ethan Crumbly

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Speaker 1: was charged with twenty four counts, including terrorism and first

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Speaker 1: degree murder, in a crime the prosecutor says was no

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Speaker 1: spur of the moment decision Judge a preliminary reviewed the

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Speaker 1: defendant social media accounts, his cell phone, as well as

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Speaker 1: other document document evidence recovered. Unseeing this defendant planned is shooting.

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Speaker 1: He deliberately brought the handgun that day with the intent

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Speaker 1: to murder as many students as he could. You know,

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Speaker 1: I packed the twins backpacks every night for the next day,

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Speaker 1: I personally take them to the car. I know what's

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Speaker 1: in the backpacks, I know what I've cleaned out of

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Speaker 1: the backpacks. How could you not know your son was

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Speaker 1: taking a weapon to school? And so much more to

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Speaker 1: I could listen to our cut fifteen our friends at

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Speaker 1: Inside Edition. The couple allegedly fled following the announcement of

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Speaker 1: the charges by prosecutor Karen McDonald, who revealed the gun

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Speaker 1: used in the shooting was bought for fifteen year old

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Speaker 1: Ethan Crumbly as an early Christmas gift. One of Jennifer

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Speaker 1: Crumbly's social media posts on about eleven, twenty seven twenty

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Speaker 1: one read quote mom and Sunday testing out his new

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Speaker 1: Christmas present end quote. She said the parents recalled to

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Speaker 1: the school after a teacher found a chilling note on

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Speaker 1: Crumbley's desk. It showed a drawing of a gun with

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Speaker 1: the words the thoughts won't stop help me, blood everywhere,

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Speaker 1: my life is useless, and the world is dead. The

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Speaker 1: notion that a parent could read those words and also

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Speaker 1: know that their son had access to a deadly weapon

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Speaker 1: that they gave him is unconscionable in I think it's criminal.

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Speaker 1: It is criminal, but not just that hold on. The

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Speaker 1: school has a part in this too. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our cut thirty one from GMA. While their Sun

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Speaker 1: faces charges including murder and terrorism and is expected to

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Speaker 1: plead guilty by reason of insanity, Jennifer and James Crumley

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Speaker 1: face four charges of involuntary manslaughter. Prosecutors using records of

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Speaker 1: text messages and eyewitness testimony to try to prove that

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Speaker 1: their negligence contributed to tragedy. The parents of Ethan Crumley

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Speaker 1: appearing in a Michigan court Tuesday after that Oxford High

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Speaker 1: school shooting that killed four students last November. Prosecutors say

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Speaker 1: Jennifer and James Crumley gave their son a firearm and

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Speaker 1: repeatedly ignored warning signs. Investigators showing text messages Jennifer Crumley

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Speaker 1: sent the day before the shooting when Ethan got in

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Speaker 1: trouble for looking up bullets on his phone during class.

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Speaker 1: Jennifer texting with her fifteen year old son, did you

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Speaker 1: Ali and to you? Jessica Dupnak, reporter Fox to Detroit,

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Speaker 1: how did the school miss him? Thumbing through his phone

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Speaker 1: looking at bullets. But let's just start with the parents.

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Speaker 1: The two that are blowing wet kisses to each other

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Speaker 1: in court in front of the victims families. What were

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Speaker 1: the warning signs the parents chose to ignore? How much

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Speaker 1: time do you have? I mean, it goes on and on.

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Speaker 1: Starting in March, eight months before the shooting, Ethan was

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Speaker 1: having for up three weeks hallucinations at his home of

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Speaker 1: demons and ghosts inside of the house that were throwing

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Speaker 1: dishes around, and he repeatedly tried to reach out to

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Speaker 1: his mother as saying, something's wrong with me, something's going on.

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Speaker 1: She was busy at a horse barn riding horses and

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Speaker 1: completely ignored it. There was never any mental health healthcare

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Speaker 1: given to this child. Then he started to mutilate animals,

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Speaker 1: to which he brought a severed birdhead to school. Just

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Speaker 1: a few days before the shooting. He was searching school

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Speaker 1: shootings and weapons on his cell phone so much that

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Speaker 1: he started to get pop up ads for psychological evaluations

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Speaker 1: and mental health. He had notebooks, two notebooks. Every single

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Speaker 1: page of those notebooks there was drawings of weapons and

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Speaker 1: basically a manifesto. I mean, it goes on and on.

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Speaker 1: And on, all under the crumblies roof just trying to

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Speaker 1: take in everything. She is saying to doctor Jillian Peterson,

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Speaker 1: forensics psychologist and author way in, I mean, I hardly

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Speaker 1: know which question I should start with. I know it's

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Speaker 1: the warning signs in this case. I mean, it's this

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Speaker 1: laundry list that goes on and on. And when we

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Speaker 1: studied these cases, we do see this that there's lots

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Speaker 1: of warning signs and it's a failure of people kind

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Speaker 1: of putting together the pieces and a lot of these cases,

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Speaker 1: this case feels different because the pieces were all put together.

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Speaker 1: The crumblies had all of the information. They knew all

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Speaker 1: of these warning signs. They knew he was hearing voices,

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Speaker 1: they knew he was struggling, and their response was to

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Speaker 1: buy him a gun. And then they're called into the

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Speaker 1: school and shown a picture where he literally writes the

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Speaker 1: words help me, and their response was to walk away.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in this case, it's so unbelievable. And we've

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Speaker 1: also mentioned the school. The school here too had social

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Speaker 1: media posts. They had a bird's head found in the

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Speaker 1: bathroom that he had put there. They had bullets in

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Speaker 1: the classroom, they had this drawing of a school shooting

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Speaker 1: to the point where parents were pulling their kids from

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Speaker 1: school because they were worried. So this school, I think

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Speaker 1: there's going to be some real questions around that as well.

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Speaker 1: I want you to hear this and then, Daryl Cohen,

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Speaker 1: you tell me you're the defense attorney. The parents aren't

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Speaker 1: partially responsible. Our cut thirty two. This is our friend

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Speaker 1: will reave at GMA. The morning of the shooting, the

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Speaker 1: Crumleys went to the school for a meeting with school

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Speaker 1: officials prosecutors playing thee one called James Crumley made Just

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Speaker 1: hours later, Jennifer's boss Andrew Smith, testifying that the morning

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Speaker 1: of the shooting, Jennifer told him she needed to get

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Speaker 1: Ethan counseling. Jennifer allegedly screaming in the office as news

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Speaker 1: of the shooting broke, later texting Smith the gun is

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Speaker 1: gone and so are the bullets, adding I need a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Ethan did it, and begging I need my job, Please

427
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: don't judge me for what my son did. I was

428
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: surprised she was worried about her job at that time.

429
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: I thought she'd be more worried about what was going on,

430
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: you know. Daryl Cohen I don't have a lot to

431
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: compare it to, but I do know that when I

432
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: got the news my fiance had been murdered, I didn't

433
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: even think about my job job. I couldn't take him.

434
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: Really what I was hearing. I still thought, for the

435
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: longest time, if I could just get to him, I

436
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: could fix it. And so my sole objection objective was

437
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: to find out where he was so I could get

438
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 1: to him, so I could fix everything my job. I mean, Nancy,

439
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: you can't make this up. This is not even a

440
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: Hollywood script. My job shouldn't even enter into the subconscious,

441
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: much less the conscious, much less the vocal and the verbal.

442
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: This is more unbelievable. Yes, I'm a defense lawyer, but

443
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: yes I try to do the right thing. And yes,

444
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: this is not the right thing with her or her husband.

445
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: This is riding horses. Save my job. Heck with my son,

446
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: He'll make it. Really, this is not anything at all

447
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: that any of us want to hear, but it's what's happening.

448
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: And as has been pointed out earlier, repercussions of this

449
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: are not just the dead victims and the shot victims,

450
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: but everybody in the entire United States and perhaps the world,

451
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: because kids need to be able to go to school.

452
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: They need to be able to understand in school is

453
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: a quote safe place end quote. They need to know

454
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: that it's okay. They should not be in fear that

455
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: some crazed student will come and shoot and kill. It

456
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: just can happen this way. And we've got to stop

457
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace too. Jessica Doop Night joining

458
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: us Fox to Detroit. Jessica, not only did they ignore

459
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: all the signals, the red flags, the bombs going off

460
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: in their home, they bought him a gun. What were

461
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: they thinking? Why did he need a gun? Well, he

462
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: was clearly obsessed with them, And I think that there

463
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: was some guilt associated with this parenting that was going

464
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: on that they realized and acknowledge through text message that

465
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with their child. They knew what

466
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: was going on, and maybe they thought this would fix it,

467
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: and it certainly did not fix anything. I'm wondering, I'm

468
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: curious about this huge treasure trope social media and digital

469
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: evidence that the state refers to. What are they talking about, Jessica?

470
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: What social media? What digital evidence? Well as far as

471
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: Ethan Crumbley's you know, his social media breadcrumbs if you will.

472
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: I mean, he was blatantly posting about guns, about demons,

473
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: about very dark, dark things on social media, to which

474
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: his parents followed his account and saw all of that.

475
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 1: And then in terms of other digital evidence, they were

476
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: then relaying concerns to friends the Jennifer and James that

477
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with their son. They just continue

478
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: to do nothing, and as we've said before, they bought

479
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: him a gun to maybe put a band aid on

480
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: the problem, you know, Jessica to Matt joining me Fox

481
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: to Detroit. There was a very very lengthy document including

482
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: evidence from before and after the shooting, like text messages

483
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: between the Crumley's after the shooting, crime scene photos close

484
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: of the victims that I guess was the first time

485
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: we were really seeing the evidence, photos inside the bathroom

486
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: where one student was the murder chased down into the bathroom,

487
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: Emails between school officials about the Crumleys odd behavior before

488
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: the shooting. What odd behavior are they talking about in

489
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: that document in terms of Jennifer and James odd behavior,

490
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: either the parents or Crumbling himself. Well, I think in

491
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: terms of Ethan, what we've talked about is just bizarre

492
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: torturing of animals. All of this social media post. There

493
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: was some tens of thousands of text messages between Ethan

494
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: and a friend of his talking about school shootings, glorifying

495
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: school shootings, all of that, and then it shows kind

496
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: of juxtaposed with all of that going on, You've got

497
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: the mom at the horse barn, dad's delivering uber eats,

498
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: and apparently there were extramarital affairs going on. So you're

499
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: just painting this picture through digital evidence of parents that

500
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: were completely removed from what was going on inside their

501
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: own home. It's not the first time parents have been

502
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: accused of knowing what their child was doing that child

503
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: later erupting into murder. I'm sure no one will ever

504
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: forget the Columbine massacre. Listen. One of the pages that

505
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: had a recipe for a pipe bomb concluded, now, our

506
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: only problem is to find the place that will be

507
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: ground z year old complaint. Today, a sheriff spokesman would

508
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: not discuss any of this, that all of that is

509
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: part of the ongoing investigation and they do not want

510
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: to make any comments about that right now. But some

511
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: of the information given to the sheriff made its way

512
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: to Neil Gardner, a deputy who was assigned to the

513
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: high school. Had you been told about that? I mean,

514
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: did you have any kind of warning about him a

515
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: little bit? Yeah, that he might be capable of making

516
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: some bombs. In the past year, Brooks Brown and Eric

517
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: Harris settled their differences before the shooting. Harris warned Brooks

518
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: to go home. Brooks, I like, you get out of

519
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: here at go home now. Brooks Brown was spared, but

520
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: now his parents are wondering if their complaints to the

521
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: sheriff a year ago had been handled differently, could many

522
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: more have been saved? So you know, to everyone on

523
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: the panel, this is not the first time parents have

524
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: chosen to look the other way. Why is that, doctor Peterson?

525
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: I think a lot of parents can imagine that their

526
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: kid would actually do something like this. It's your kid.

527
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 1: You tend to think there's no way Mike could actually

528
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: do something this monstrous, this unbelievable. I think we also

529
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: see that kids who do this are raised in households

530
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: that are pretty dysfunctional, that have lots of histories of

531
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: sort of abuse and neglects and sort of bad family

532
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: dynamics that a lot of times these kids are really

533
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: being ignored, like we saw in this case, even though

534
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: they are doing all these things, showing off these signs

535
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: in many ways almost crying out for help. They look

536
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: how messed up I am? I need something, and the

537
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: parents are just ignoring it. We are also learning that

538
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: the prosecutor is debunking social media posts that Ethan Cromley

539
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: is incompetent to stand trial, calling it one hundred percent fault. Now.

540
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 1: I understand that a lot of people are on social

541
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: media giving their opinion, which mean nothing of course in court,

542
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: but they are saying that he is in no way incompetent. Jessica,

543
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: do mat why. I think there's just there's too much

544
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: of a trail of a paper trail of and it

545
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: was ramping up. You know, it started with searching school

546
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: shootings to the point where it became obsessive. I mean,

547
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: he's drawing in notebooks. I heard that there was videos

548
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: that he did kind of a tell all of what

549
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: he was going to do. And then I think, really

550
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: the headline here is that drawing in class where he

551
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: basically drew pictures as a fifteen year old wood of

552
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: what he was about to carry out two hours later.

553
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: I mean, he knew what he wanted to do a

554
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: treasure trove social media post. Crumley allegedly filmed himself talking

555
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: about killing students the night before the shooting. A series

556
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: of posts by him posted on Instagram just before the massacre.

557
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: One of the captions years to say, I quote just

558
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: got my new beauty today and it's of a nine

559
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 1: millimeter semi automatic weapon. Another post says say you tomorrow,

560
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: Oxford with a mention to death and the destroyer of worlds.

561
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: It goes on and on and on. I don't know

562
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: how a jury's going to take it all in. And

563
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: the past days there has been a move to take

564
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: Ethan Cromley out of adult holding and put him in

565
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: juvenile and a juvenile facility. Jessica doopna, what's happening. Well,

566
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: that's been really the conversation since he appeared in court.

567
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: You know, I think that right now he's going to

568
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: stay put. He's isolated in an area kind of where

569
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: a medical treatment is given in the adult jail. He's

570
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: twenty four hour watch by a deputy, you know, very secluded.

571
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: But his attorneys believe that he needs to go really

572
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: across the street, you know, proximity to juvenile but I

573
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: just don't see it happening. I think that it would

574
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: just upset too many people, And with this being a

575
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: case that's so media driven, I just don't see it happening.

576
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: What about it, Darryll Cohen, I completely agree. He needs

577
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 1: to stay where he is. The heck with his age,

578
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: it's the focus on the crime that he committed. And also,

579
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: pardon me, the perception this is all about optics as well.

580
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: He has to stay where he is before he's tried

581
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: or before he enters a plea. He should not move.

582
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: Just so upsetting that all of these warning signs were

583
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: a miss. Take a listen to our cut thirty four.

584
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: This is at least preston CBS Ethan Crumbly remained quiet

585
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: as his attorney entered a not guilty plea on twenty

586
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: four counts, including murder and terrorism charges. The Michigan team

587
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 1: allegedly opened fire in a hallway at Oxford High School,

588
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: killing four and wounding seven with a gun that is

589
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: parents bought him as an early Christmas present. A civil

590
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: lawsuit against the Oxford Community School District accuses administrators of

591
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: putting students in danger by allegedly downplaying Grumbley's actions before

592
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: the shooting, when he posted countdowns and threats of bodily harm.

593
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: At one point, the complaint claims that the boy left

594
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 1: a severed birdhead in a mason jar containing a yellow

595
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: liquid in the boy's bathroom. The school then emailed students

596
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: and parents that there has been no threat to our

597
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: building nor our students. To Karen Smith, forensic expert, that

598
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: is a classic sign that that youth will turn into

599
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: a killer. The mutilation of animals, absolutely, that's one of

600
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: the trifecta. You have mutilation of animals, you have bedwedding,

601
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: and you have fire starting. Those are the three things

602
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: that you look for. And when I heard about this

603
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: birdhead found in the bathroom, and then I heard that

604
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: the police couldn't link it to a specific person. But

605
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: then I saw that there was video surveillance in the

606
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: moments before and after the shooting, and I thought, well,

607
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: where's the video surveillance of the bathroom with this birdhead in? It?

608
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: Was that reviewed where fingerprints pulled from the mason jar

609
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: that it was in. You know, students may have touched

610
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: it and left their fingerprints behind, but you can still

611
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: process that and look for forensic evidence to link it

612
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: to the person who may have left it there. So

613
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: there were a lot of balls that were dropped that

614
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 1: made me question it. But yes, you're absolutely right leaving

615
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: a severed birdhead in a yellow liquid which I will

616
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: assume to be urine in a mason jar in a

617
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: boy's bathroom and then have that reported to school officials

618
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: and no action taken to find out who left it there.

619
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: To listen to the students who were saying it was

620
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: potentially Ethan that did this, that is a failure that

621
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: just escaped my mind. To doctor Jeffrey M. Jensen, joining

622
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: us Prime, University of Michigan, author of a death Investigation

623
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: in America, Coroners, Medical Examiners, and the Pursuit of Medical Certainty,

624
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: The title of your book leads me to my next question.

625
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: When you I mean I will never forget the first

626
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: time I investigated and prosecuted a mass shooting. I still

627
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: think about it. And one of the crime scene photos,

628
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: Doctor Jensen, there was literally blood running down the gutter,

629
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: literally blood running down the gutter. There was so much

630
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: blood at the medical examiner's office. How is a mass

631
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: shooting processed when you have so many victims? How do

632
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: you call infra backup. I mean, what do you do

633
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: well on the multiple fatality incidents. You basically, I have

634
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: to rely on your disaster programs and your previous training

635
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: because you just can't plan ahead enough for these kind

636
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: of episodes. And you know, our experience with the Jeffrey

637
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: Dahmer case was very similar to something like this, with

638
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: all the evidence and clues ahead of time, and that

639
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: things were ignored and we treated that as a mini

640
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: disaster also, as you should have when you are performing

641
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: the autopsis, doctor Jensen, I would assume that you would

642
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: rather look at the body as quickly as possible after

643
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: the death. What effect does chilling the body and having

644
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: the body chilled for a period of time, hours or

645
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: even a day for you to accurately methodically take the

646
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: time you need for each autopsy. Well, Nancy, you know

647
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: my practice has always been that the autopsy starts at

648
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: the scene, and that it's essential that the medical examiner

649
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists is available to view the decedents at the

650
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: scene and to gather their own information and objective findings

651
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: as soon as possible in order to make those determinations

652
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: of the time of death, pain and suffering, location of

653
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: shooter and victim and other really essential observations that can

654
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: only be done when the forensic pathologist is at the scene.

655
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: I'm taking in everything you're saying, doctor, and let me

656
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: go to now, Jessica Deep Nat Reporter Fox to Detroit. Jessica,

657
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: what's happening next? I know the judge did not a

658
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: request to move Ethan Cromley to a juvenile facility. What's next? So,

659
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: in terms of Ethan's case, it's been bound over to

660
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: the higher courts for now, and as far as his parents,

661
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: James and Jennifer, there will be further testimony later this month.

662
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: It'll be day two of testimony, and that's really where

663
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: we got a lot of the details of that digital

664
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: evidence you spoke of. And then the judge will ultimately

665
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: determine if that their cases, their charges will be bound

666
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: over to the higher courts. And simply put to you,

667
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, a bind over hearing or a preliminary hearing

668
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: is just to deterf a judge to determine. You know,

669
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: I typically used to grand jury because I didn't want

670
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 1: my evidence to be public. But a preliminary hearings, where

671
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: the bare bones evidence of a case is presented to

672
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: a judge, just to judge, and that judge decides whether

673
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: there's enough evidence to go to a petit petit jury

674
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: of twelve, and then we'll send it to the correct court.

675
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: For instance, if it's a shop lifting of a ten dollars,

676
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: it'll go to misdemeanor court. If it's a mass murder,

677
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: it will go to your court. Is that your understanding

678
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: of a preliminary hearing, absolutely, Nancy. I like to say,

679
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: it's not really probable cause, which is what the law is.

680
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 1: It's possible cause. Did it maybe perhaps happen, and then

681
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: it moves on. In this instance, it definitely happened. And

682
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: whether or not he is foul guilty by a jury,

683
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: whether or not he enters a plea of guilty, whether

684
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 1: there's an insanity portion of this doesn't matter until later.

685
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: But this is merely enough to say, let's move it

686
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: on to the next court so they can deal with

687
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: that and hopefully justice will happen. You're right, it's not

688
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: a probable cause standard for a prelimb it's whether and

689
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: this is the black and white letter of the law.

690
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: There is an issue of fact to be determined by

691
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: a jury. Is there a question at all, and if so,

692
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: it will be sent to a jury trial, or at

693
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: least to a higher court. We wait as justice unfils,

694
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: not for the school shooter, Ethan Crimley, but for those

695
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: two parents. They keep blowing drippy, wet kisses to each

696
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: other in court. Nancy Gray's Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,