00:00:00 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Catch us live weekdays at seven am Eastern on Apple CarPlay or Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 00:00:27 Speaker 2: Our interview of the Day on Fixed in Come James Karen. Jim Karen joins us with Morgan Stanley, Cio crossess at Solutions. 00:00:35 Speaker 3: Jim, you know I love your note. 00:00:36 Speaker 2: Where you review nominal GDP when you talk to your accountants your economists. Excuse me, when you talk to your economists, do you see a sustained nominal GDP or can it come down from the five percent level? 00:00:52 Speaker 3: Good morning Tom and Paul. Listen. 00:00:56 Speaker 4: You know nominal GDP is really if I'm talking into my account, he sees only nominal dollars. 00:01:02 Speaker 5: Right. 00:01:02 Speaker 4: We all get paid in nominal dollars, right, So what we observe in the world is a nominal world. We don't observe like we don't get paid in real dollars. So you know the fact that nominal GDP first quarter of this year was running at six percent, which is significantly above the average over the last you know, many years, which was closer to four and in the second quarter nominal. 00:01:25 Speaker 3: GDP, if you look at the GDP. 00:01:27 Speaker 4: Deflator, nominal GDP was running closer to seven point nine percent. If you use PCE as your inflation measure, it's closer to six and a half percent. But the point here, Tom, is that if you're in a higher nominal GDP world, you tend to get higher earnings. No surprise there. We could take a look and see what's going on with second quarter earnings and even with first quarter earnings, and that's the kind of connection that we should draw. So when I talk about higher nominal GDP, think about that as higher equity earnings and earnings per growth in earnings per share growth. 00:01:59 Speaker 6: So, Jim, how does our federal reserve adapt to this type of economic environment and growth environment? 00:02:07 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you know, part of this is is the inflation element to it, right, you know, So nominal GDP is real growth plus the inflation. 00:02:16 Speaker 3: So you know what's driving the higher nominal. 00:02:18 Speaker 4: GDP is that we are living in a higher inflation world somewhere around two and a half three percent, let's say. Well, I guess we'll find out more on Wednesday. So you know, the question is, is inflation accelerating higher? Can we sustain a two and a half percent inflation to three percent for the time being until it settles back down? Yes, I don't think that that is going to be overly corrosive, you know, for the FED, as long as they believe that the inflation and inflation expectations are not becoming ingrained where it becomes, you know, something that you know, becomes more destructive going forward. But so at this point right now, I think it's sustainable. But you know, I guess we'll find out more on Wednesday with CPI. 00:03:04 Speaker 6: How do you expect here? Just kind of interest rates in general? It just feels like we're higher for longer here, Jim, is that the world do you think we're in or we're going to see some moderation? 00:03:15 Speaker 4: Yeah, I do think that we're in a higher for longer in environment. 00:03:19 Speaker 3: So you know, one of. 00:03:20 Speaker 4: The correlations that you can draw and you can go back over a long period of time is nominal GDP versus the ten year yield. Those two usually sit pretty close to each other. And I'm not calling for ten year yields to go up, you know, significantly, I think that we're primarily in a range and we're going to go pretty much sideways into the end. 00:03:37 Speaker 3: Of the year. 00:03:38 Speaker 4: But you know, the ability for rates to move down sharply right now, particularly at the back end, outside of having a recession or some really sharp slowdown in the economy, I think is somewhat limited because you know, in the environment that we're in, you know, at the current moment, it just seems that nominal growth is going to be higher, which means that it just it just a leevys the risk of yields moving down sharply. 00:04:03 Speaker 2: So the Jim the Gloom crew is going to step in and say, Okay, there's all this fancy Jim Karen talk. But the question is the fiscal state we're in, how do you pull in our debt and our deficit into that ancient worry oops, price down, yields up bigley. 00:04:23 Speaker 4: So this is a great question, Tom, So let's connect the dots on this. So the idea is that if you have higher nominal growth, which we do, that's what pays down your deficit. Right, that is the number one thing that pays down your deficit. So you're absolutely right, the deficit is two high it's around six percent of GDP. It's been coming down by some measures, it's slightly under six. I'm sorry, that's the fiscal deficit, not debt to GDP. Debt to GDP is you know, it is still a little bit high depending on what metric you're using, around one hundred and twenty percent. Now, that's likely to come down as long as you have higher nominal growth. That's what brings that down the fastest. That's what we did after World War two, right, we had yield curve control. We capped you know, ten year yields of two and a half percent, and we allowed nominal GDP to get above six and that's what paid down the deficit after World War two. So in some ways we're doing something similar to the right now with higher nominal growth. 00:05:20 Speaker 6: Jim, how is this kind of world of higher economic growth? Has that changed your asset allocation at all? 00:05:27 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely So. 00:05:29 Speaker 4: Basically, if you're at a higher nominal world, you're likely going to favor more equities over fixed income. So when you think of sixty forty, I would say, you know, sixty percent equity forty percent fixed income is a traditional balance portfolio. 00:05:43 Speaker 3: I would say that the. 00:05:45 Speaker 4: Forty percent in fixed income becomes somewhat challenged right now, just because you don't have the ability to generate high levels of return without rates moving down very sharply. So the equity markets tend to have higher valuations. When you have inflation somewhere around two and a half to three and a half percent, which is where it is today, valuations tend to be higher and sustainably higher. Companies have margins, they have pricing power, they generate higher earnings, So equities tend to be the asset class that is in favor in a higher nominal growth world. So it tilts me more towards the equity spectrum and a little bit of way from fixed income. 00:06:23 Speaker 2: So do you look in terms of use of cash, is dividend growth and share buyback to be a constructive yield equivalent forward three or five years? 00:06:36 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:06:37 Speaker 4: Yes, you know absolutely, because look, you know, dividend yields are real yields, right, you know, that's the yield you get after all the expenses and inflation is a cost, right, that's what you get back from the you know, the you know, the stock that you bought. So what you want to have are higher, real returning assets real yields, and as I always like to say that, you know, equity are are a nominal asset with real returns because with equities you get the return after all the expenses, inflation being one of those expenses. So whether it's dividends or if it's buybacks, or whatever the case may be, that's. 00:07:17 Speaker 3: Where you're likely to see the appreciation. 00:07:19 Speaker 4: The most appreciation in your investment is likely to come from the equity side of the ledger as opposed to the fixed income side. That doesn't mean fixed income is important. You still need that as a hedge and it's a good source of income in your portfolios, but you have to balance it properly. 00:07:33 Speaker 2: Jim Carrot, thank you terrific Monday Morning Brief with Mortgane Stanley, Jim Karret. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Surveillance coming up after this. 00:07:52 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from seven to ten am Eastern Listen on Apple and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 00:08:05 Speaker 2: Shoining us on. John Gallive writ's a wonderful earnings update all through the quarter, as well with Seaport at Research Partners. You are in the surveillance timeout chair. A sixty six page power point is an October event. Now you have an August sixty six page power point. When are you Mary Meeker? Which is the most important slide in your sixty six page power point? 00:08:30 Speaker 7: There is one slide right at the beginning which highlights that the market is up whatever it is, you know, between ten and fifteen percent this year, but the earnings are way above that number, and the stock multiple is down. And the narrative that's out in the market is that this market. 00:08:48 Speaker 3: Is expensive because it's up so much. 00:08:51 Speaker 7: And in reality, it's all earnings and the valuation is two and a half multiple points cheaper. 00:08:58 Speaker 3: That's about twelve percent cheaper. And it was the beginning. 00:09:00 Speaker 2: So how do you treat major firms tweaking their target out twelve months up one hundred do and peak points, let's go to seventy eight hundred, let's go to eight thousand, this creeping extrapolation. How do you synthesize that? 00:09:16 Speaker 7: Well, I mean, if there's a theme, the analysts are underestimating the power of these earnings. 00:09:23 Speaker 3: Earnings are growing. 00:09:25 Speaker 7: Fifty percent this quarter, compared to a year ago. 00:09:31 Speaker 3: That just doesn't happen. 00:09:32 Speaker 7: The only time it does happen is when you're leaving a recession and you're comparing a broken quarter a year ago to a really good quarter now, And that's not what's happening. You don't have mid cycle earnings seasons with fifty percent growth, and even if you take out one time items, you're a thirty percent. 00:09:48 Speaker 3: That's still an insane number. 00:09:50 Speaker 6: So what screens well for you? Here are we chasing this earnings growth? What are you guys looking at these days? 00:09:56 Speaker 7: So's there's actually a number of story So across the tech landscape, things look really great, except the hyperscalers, if you look at it on a cash flow basis, are a real problem. But otherwise even their earnings growth is strong. The financials, all of this activity that we're seeing on data centers and all this stuff needs to be financed the banks. We went into earning season expectations were for seven and a half percent growth. It looks like the numbers are going to come in over twenty five percent growth. So we just a massive underestimation of the role that banks play in this. 00:10:32 Speaker 6: So what is the AI theme for you? These days. I mean, it used to be just by the chips, and I guess that's still a good way to do it, but people are looking for derivative plays and derivative off of those derivatives. How do you guys think about it? 00:10:44 Speaker 7: Well, first of all, if we step back, what percentage of the SMP is ultimately part of this If you look at the entire tech related basket, because you know, Google is considered a communications company and Amazon is considered a consumer company, if you take that basket, it's over four five percent of the SMP. But then you have to add the power generation companies and the companies that make refrigeration and all of the things that go into that process. You're talking about well over fifty percent of the market is part of this theme. And if you go abroad, interestingly, emerging markets and you're talking about Taiwan and Korea are plays on this theme. 00:11:22 Speaker 3: The only thing that's not, you know, you're talking about Europe before. 00:11:25 Speaker 7: Europe's not a play on this on this theme, and they're kind of getting left behind in terms of earnings growth. 00:11:30 Speaker 6: So it's pretty much everywhere you're looking out there into the market. 00:11:33 Speaker 7: It's sixty five percent of the public equity market. 00:11:39 Speaker 6: So we're going to have a FED. Doesn't appear that's going to be helping this market. But I guess with the if the fed's not gonna be learning rates, you really have to rely upon earnings. And that's good because the earnings are coming through. 00:11:50 Speaker 7: I guess, well, if you look at the valuation on stocks, first of all, the credit spread, the ability for a company to make that debt payment is way more important than the general interest rate. And that's a tad this year, but it's not a huge But the fact is, forget about the FED. The ten yure boniold does up seventy basis points or so this year, and you know, if your discount rate is up, your multiple goes down. And that's one of the big reasons why you have earnings up more than the stock prices. 00:12:22 Speaker 2: Rotation it seems it seems almost antiquated, like you know, everybody in the room is so young that nobody knows rotation. But are we doing traditional rotation or is it like all new now? 00:12:38 Speaker 7: Well, if you take a look at first of all, there's a huge amount of movement under the hood. So in the month of July, you basically had a flat market, but you had a you know, in between June and July a really large tech and growth sell off and a value went into favors. 00:12:54 Speaker 2: So yeah, there's a. 00:12:55 Speaker 3: Lot of movement. 00:12:55 Speaker 2: I don't buy it, bel chuns is in later. Index funds don't rotate, do they? 00:13:00 Speaker 7: The market? What the market favors rotates. So the index fund may not be moving in or out, but whether it's give you an example, tom as interest rates have been rising on the long end of the curve, they are punishing tech more so on days or months or weeks when interest rates go up. They don't treat everything equally. 00:13:21 Speaker 2: Okay, are you hunt? What do you do with marginally? With mag seven? Do you sell it? If you own it? Do you buy it at the margin? Right now? 00:13:30 Speaker 7: First of all, I'm not sure that that definition is the most important. 00:13:33 Speaker 3: Definitely, Okay, but no, let's let's if we break it down. There's two tech stories. 00:13:38 Speaker 7: There's the hyperscalers that are spending money like crazy, that have a cash flow problem, and then you have the rest of tech and even software where people are concerned about what is AI going to do in terms of disrupting it over the long run. Their earnings are fantastic, and then Hardware and Semis are off the charge total gloom. 00:13:57 Speaker 2: Third week of June, red Sox are place. Akmen and Gollum. It's a wonderful firm. Ackman and Gollups say shut up and buy Microsoft. It's up forty three percent from that June low. I mean, some of this Bag seven stuff is popping. 00:14:15 Speaker 3: And it's popping because the earnings are there. 00:14:18 Speaker 7: And Microsoft is kind of interesting because they're part of this hyper scaler's business. Their cash flows are fantastic, so not all of them are the same, but the amount of spending capex that they are part of is enormous. 00:14:31 Speaker 2: John Gottlip, thank you so much. Seaport Advisors can't say enough about his research. Note again, we protect the copyright of all of our guests. Look to Seaport Advisors for Gallob's brilliance. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Surveillance coming up after this. 00:14:57 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast that's just live weekday afternoons from seven to ten am. E's durn Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 00:15:09 Speaker 2: One of the good things with Heather Rice at KPMG is she doesn't toss a sixty six page power point on our lab at KPMG. Here in August as well, joining us Heather us Products Line business leader at KPMG power points, I'd like, do your eyes glaze over after the twentieth page? 00:15:29 Speaker 8: Yeah? I think power points are dead? 00:15:34 Speaker 2: What's AI done to power points? 00:15:37 Speaker 9: Like? 00:15:37 Speaker 2: Can you claud a power point? 00:15:40 Speaker 6: Yeah? 00:15:41 Speaker 8: I think you can. 00:15:41 Speaker 5: But trying to convey information that way, I think it was just difficult. I think more and more people are, you know, are looking for storytelling. 00:15:49 Speaker 2: Okay, tell us about storytelling right now? In August of twenty twenty six. 00:15:54 Speaker 5: Well, I think the main story we can you know, continue to hear is the AI is being used for operational efficiency right as consumer and goods companies are faced with tariffs they have been for a year. You know, you're thinking about the war and Iran and the oil prices and what it's doing to logistics. So I think the bigger, the bigger story is how do you look at your operational structure in terms of cost and understanding what like what companies are doing? 00:16:22 Speaker 2: You know what I mean. Paul's getting us this question. I'm taking it away from them right now? What are they doing? Are we losing jobs due to AI? Did I do? Okay? There? Well? Sure, okay? Are we losing jobs because of AI? 00:16:36 Speaker 6: Yeah? 00:16:36 Speaker 8: I wouldn't. I wouldn't frame it like that. 00:16:38 Speaker 5: How I would say, companies are using AI to move faster in business, and we have massive amounts of data, but what do we do with that? 00:16:46 Speaker 8: I kind of call it the paralysis of data? 00:16:50 Speaker 5: And so I think you have employees that are now being able to be more valuable and spending more time analyzing the data to make business decisions quicker. 00:17:00 Speaker 6: So I mean the companies your clients are they looking how are they looking to implement AI? Because there is a cost component to it, and I think companies are becoming more and more sensitive to So what are the conversations that you're having with your clients? 00:17:14 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:17:14 Speaker 5: I mean, and I kind of view us as a kind of clients zero on how we've kind of weave shaped that narrative. But what I would say is thinking about the operational structure of a business. And I think everybody's trying to think about how do you take out back end costs? 00:17:27 Speaker 8: Right? Because that is a non value add to you know, the price of the product that we're selling. 00:17:33 Speaker 5: So thinking about how we can create some of the or the take out some of the non value pieces of our business to streamline it and free up people to do more value add tasks. 00:17:46 Speaker 6: Is that actually we're probably not even in the bottom of the first inning here. I mean, it feels like a lot of companies, like a lot of individuals, are just trying to figure out what is AI, How do I use it? How do I use it ethically? Where are the I mean, do you feel like your clients are on the forefront here or they're trying to catch up? What are you seeing it there? 00:18:07 Speaker 8: I say, I don't think anybody's trying to catch up. 00:18:09 Speaker 5: I think everyone is still trying to figure out how we're going to use it and what it looks like within your business. And I think that there's a I think there's a lot of steps you have to do. I don't think it is a quick plug and play solution, right. If anything, I think it's exposed that your data has to be good. 00:18:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, hell, you're in an esteemed room here. I mean Paul Sweeney Valet Cars at the Jefferson Hotel in Richmond, Virginia. Just a few years ago. You are in Richmond, which to me is a perfect melting pot of the stress parents and their kids are having about AI. What do you say to Robin's school people at Richmond coming out and they're like, Okay, I got to get a job, but everybody tells me I'm not going to get a job because of AI. How do you respond to that at KPMG. 00:18:55 Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say lean into it. I actually think it makes you smarter. I think you're able to in azed data quicker, look at the trends, connect the dots in a way that we haven't been able to do before. 00:19:06 Speaker 1: And so. 00:19:07 Speaker 5: I think be a curious learner, use it to give yourself more time to really understand business. Right, And so I think, like you know, for Richmond, I would say they're encouraging it. 00:19:20 Speaker 2: I agree with everything you just said. But do CEOs agree with what you just said or are they just looking at it as one big cost cut? 00:19:29 Speaker 8: No, I think that they are. 00:19:30 Speaker 5: I think CEOs are trying to evaluate how are we going to use it in our business? I mean, certainly it's it's not going to you know, robots aren't going to be you know, running a running a business and you know anytime soon. But they are looking to understand how do we continue to train our employees, how do we move faster in this day and age. You have to go quick or you're going to get left behind. 00:19:54 Speaker 6: How do you consumer products companies that you cover. We were just talking about this earlier in flo higher costs, they're just doesn't seem like they're going away, And I'm like, how do your companies do they just assume they can continue raising prices to maintain margin. 00:20:11 Speaker 8: Yeah, I would say the exact opposite. 00:20:12 Speaker 5: And I certainly think it depends on if you're looking at consumer staples or if you're looking at luxury goods. 00:20:18 Speaker 8: But I would say I don't. 00:20:19 Speaker 5: I don't think we're seeing companies pass the price on to consumers, especially in the staple market. I mean, if you think about it, these very large brands, right they've dominated. 00:20:30 Speaker 8: The physical shelf for years, or. 00:20:33 Speaker 5: You walk down the aisle and see right in the middle with anything. As e commerce has come on right especially during COVID and after COVID, they have to be really careful because they they do not want to get lost in what I kind of call call the search bar, the digital the search bar. So if you raise prices, you potentially could lose out on consumers and become invisible and the digital age. 00:21:00 Speaker 6: Well, I think the issues I think since COVID and just inflation in general, the store brands are just I can't believe I'll big there. Maybe I just wasn't seeing it before, but now I don't walk down on and they're everywhere. 00:21:13 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's certainly more private, private labels, and I think and I think that's where the brands are really at risk if they do pass on those prices to consumers, even by five percent. Right, there's a there's a set amount of wallet that consumers have. And if if you increase your price just a little bit and you cause a consumer to look down grab the private label, yep, you're at risk of maybe losing a customer forever. 00:21:36 Speaker 8: If the customer doesn't find value in what you're paying, yep. 00:21:39 Speaker 2: Charge don't be a stranger. Heather Rice with us from Richmond US Products Line business leader at KPMG decades at KPMG. A really really interesting tone there on AI and what it means for all of those stay with us. More from Bloomberg Surveillance coming up after this. 00:22:04 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Catch us Live weekday afternoons from seven to ten am Eastern. Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us Live on YouTube. 00:22:17 Speaker 2: This is a joy and is an earned position. He's at the Conference Board, which is legendary. We talked to their economists. They are a wonderful group. But he comes as a CEO of the Conference Board after a wonderful heritage of running companies across America. Stephen Adlin I first knew I think at Office Deepot years ago and just wonderful to speak to him today on a broader, bigger view of America than actually running a company. Steve adad what is the confidence right now of our CEOs? They got a boom economy, they got boom nominal gdp Ernie's like we've never seen. But when they look into two thousand in twenty seven or plan for two thy twenty eight, what's the level of confidence? 00:23:06 Speaker 9: Well, good morning, Tom, Yeah, there. The Conference Sports CEO Confidence Index just came out and this is a quarterly index that goes between zero and one hundred hundred being max and zero being the least. We came in at fifty two, so right about the middle, which is up a little bit from the second quarter when things were just starting to rage in Iran and oil prices we're taking off, so it's it's come up a little bit, but we're seeing CEO confidence float with the level of inflation and with what's going on in geopolitics. 00:23:40 Speaker 2: Now. 00:23:40 Speaker 9: The good news is that they're telling us that we're in a low higher low fire situation. We're at you know, relatively full employment and h and they're not letting go of jobs even though they're you know, they're a little pessimistic. 00:23:53 Speaker 10: On where we stand with inflation. 00:23:55 Speaker 9: So that's at least good news Tom, because they you know, they can to hold on to their employe. 00:24:00 Speaker 2: Is the confidence of CEOs shaded by the technology boom is everywhere but four zip codes on the East Coast, in seven zip codes in Los Angeles, A and that we don't see that Dallas, Austin is an example, is booming. 00:24:19 Speaker 9: Well, you know, this whole AI thing is scary because it's yet another transition, and for a while people were saying oh, it's going to kill jobs. If you remember, this is the same thing that's happened over the past fifty years that every evolution of technology, right so the digital technology continues, that hasn't happened. We haven't seen on the sale lots of jobs right now. What you're seeing is massive investment and the hope from you know, and that's helping the AI industry the firms that are doing it, but everybody else is investing like crazy, and the hope is that they can drive some productivity, not an elimin HB, but drive productivity. And remember, Tom, this is what we saw in the nineties through the last evolution. It's all about basis points a year on the GDP okay. 00:25:04 Speaker 2: But the urchins coming out of Notre Dame are out of Kellogg's School in Northwestern where you darkened the door years ago. Can you tell them they're going to get a job with AI or that AI can improve their prospects? 00:25:18 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:25:19 Speaker 2: I can. 00:25:19 Speaker 9: And the reason is because we've seen it. You've seen it, and you know we've been tracking it for a very long time. It's a scary thing that comes in, but AI is actually creating jobs, net jobs and it's changing the way workflows and so the quality of their work will improve. 00:25:35 Speaker 10: They're not going to be doing as much grunt work. They're going to be doing. 00:25:39 Speaker 9: Higher order work as AI does the grunt work, and there's more automation. So you know, it's an exciting frontier that I don't think should be feared. 00:25:46 Speaker 2: What's the other key insight you see within your news study? 00:25:51 Speaker 10: Yeah, so I mentioned the low higher low fire. 00:25:55 Speaker 9: We're seeing projections of wage increases next year in the three to four percent range. That's where people are gearing, which is right where inflation is right. So you know they're hanging in there. In their injections with that, they also tell us that there are the top risks have changed. So you know, a quarter ago it was. 00:26:16 Speaker 10: All around iron Iran. 00:26:17 Speaker 9: Now we're seeing it's back to cyber and UH and of course AI and the risks of managing around that. 00:26:24 Speaker 2: Because so I see office depot, and you know, I look at the other companies running out of zone and such. If we have a new higher rate regime, how does that change? I mean, if we stay here it's some kind of higher rate regime that's way different than where we were six seven years ago, isn't it. 00:26:43 Speaker 9: It is, but it's still you know, about where it was before that. So you know what we were in is a temporary situation, you know, with two and a half percent mortgages because of zero zero discount rate. Okay, that's just not reality that that's not where it needs to be. I think Kevin Watsh's is a brilliant guy. He is very close to the business community. He calls CEOs personally to try to keep his finger on the pulse of main Street and what's going on in the economy. The conference WHAR is projecting no increase or decrease, no rate change for the balance of the year, and interesting, actually we'll see a couple of rate changes in twenty seven. 00:27:22 Speaker 2: I love I love asking you this because you're such an operational guy. Across your heritage, across your resume. What's the biggest myth about CEOs that Hollywood holds and that the public holds? 00:27:37 Speaker 9: Well, it is interesting, you know, you watch these movies and these CEOs are always the evil people. You know, they're they're ordering, you know, crimes to be done and everything. You know, Look, I know I've known hundreds and hundreds of CEOs These are good, decent people who get up every morning worried about their consumers, their investors, their employees, trying to take care of their business, and trying to make sure that they create jobs, protect jobs, grow the economy, do the right thing for the country. These are true patriots and we should honor them. 00:28:09 Speaker 2: I can see Steve Oublin's central casting the Bad Guys CEO. He is the bad guy at the conference board, Steven Ablin. 00:28:16 Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live each weekday seven to ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal.