WEBVTT - UC Bargaining and Building a Better Union 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.240 Hello, podcast fans, it's me today, It's James. It's only James. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.080 We're giving you some updates on the UC strike, but 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:15.320 we recorded these before some changes happened. Progress you could 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.040 call it. Maybe it's not progress, depends on where you're 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.560 at a position wise with that. But there are two 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.520 interviews today. One's going to explain a little bit about 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:24.640 the bargaining and the differences between rank and fire on 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:26.920 the bargaining team. The other one is going to explain 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:32.360 the very important and radical and and progressive access needs 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.400 demands that were made. And it seems like ultimately not 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:37.680 at least I'm not on the table in this tentative agreement. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.680 So that's a tentative agreement out for voting right now. 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:45.279 If you have been on the internet today Saturday, and 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:46.879 if you've been on today, you will have seen it 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.440 presented as if the strike was over. That's not necessarily 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.760 the case, right The contractors up for ratification and it's 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.040 ratified by union members who have to vote on it. 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:57.360 A number of people who are organizing for a no vote, 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.560 especially people who are in department, saw parts of the 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.040 university which would qualify follower tears of pay. The contract 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.520 has tiered pay, has tiered pay both geographically and depict 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:09.680 based on what kind of work you're doing. Um So, 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:11.639 a lot of people who are left at the bottom 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:13.560 of those tears are obviously feeling like they've they've been 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:15.720 out of strike for five weeks and haven't got what 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.320 they wanted. A lot of people who run those higher 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.039 tears are also feeling like they should be expressing solidarity 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:24.520 with their fellow workers at the bottom. But you will 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:26.520 have seen like a lot of reporting. Some of it 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.959 came up very very quickly after the after the attentative 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.000 agreement was made, which it's odd and perhaps is because 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.839 the union appears to be the union staff. I should 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.240 say to people who are who are making these some 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:41.400 of the people who are who are in favor of 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.160 this contractor using a PR company which appears to have 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.839 maybe seeded some stories and some publications, but we can't 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.760 be sure. Certainly they were very quick to press. So 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:52.720 I would urge you to listen to this as sort 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.320 of a coda to some of what you might be reading. 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:57.680 There are two things. You can listen to them separately. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.080 You can listen one after the other. We won't have 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.000 any podcasts for a while over there, open to break, 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:04.880 so I will speak to you again in the new year. 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:09.280 And I hope you enjoyed both these interviews. Mohammed, can 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.240 you just explain, first of all, tell folks at which 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.040 campus you're at and maybe what you're studying and where 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.080 you are in the in the giant structure that is, 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.640 like the U A W, U C S D. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.600 so I'm at you see San Diego. UM, I'm a 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.240 fifth year in the PhD program in the Department of 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:32.120 Ethnic Studies. And yeah, I specifically study like Muslim racialization 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.959 and sectarianism in the US UM. And how that, Yeah, 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.320 how that looks up to like imperialism, settler colonialism, UM, 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.399 gender formations, things like that. UM. And I suppose my 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.600 place within this, as you say, like the labyrinth of U, C, 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.640 S D, ANU A W politics. UM. Right now, I'm 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.760 just a ranking final member UM. However, a couple of 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:59.120 years ago, I was UM the unit chair for San Diego. 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.720 So I was actually on the bargaining team previously. UM. 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.120 And that was at the beginning of the pandemic UM. 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.320 And so a lot of like COVID bargaining, for example, UM, 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.799 I sort of like oversaw that and prior to that, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:17.240 I UM was organizer with the Cola movement and so 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:23.320 I helped organize the wildcat strike. UM great San Diego. Yeah, nice, Yeah, Yeah, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.080 there's a long history of union organizing. It's good. And 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.720 so can you explain to folks a little bit about 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.760 because you mentioned the bargaining team there, right, and maybe 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.360 people wouldn't be familiar with the distinctions in union organization. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.080 Obviously this is in Italy in the nineteen sixties, so 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.800 you don't bargain with the entire union on mass e sadly, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.520 but they do. The university meets with a certain group 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.360 of union representatives, So can you explain like who they 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.400 are and how they're selected to start with? Maybe? Yeah, absolutely, UM. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:04:00.120 So there are essentially two levels of three level of 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:04.680 leadership UM within the union. So at the top, in 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:09.720 terms of statewide leadership, you have the Executive Board UM 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.000 and that's you know, like president, vice presidents for North 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:17.120 and South campuses UM, trustees, treasurers, things like that UM. 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:21.359 And then you have campus based leadership and that's split 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.919 between head stewards that are apportioned to campuses based on 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:29.240 their population in size UM. And then you have to 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.760 kind of sort of like head leadership positions, one being 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.640 the unit chair and the other being the recording secretary. 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.880 And so the bargaining team for the whole union is 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:42.039 composed of the unit chair and the sec from each 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.479 campus UM. And at this time around, we've added someone 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.640 from you see, San Francisco. They're usually not represented, like 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.240 in the past bargaining cycles they haven't been, So there 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.000 are now nineteen people on UM, the u W two 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.720 eight six five bargaining Team UM, whereas previously there had 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.240 been a team UM. Yeah, and I guess that's sort 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.360 of like final level of of leadership that combines both 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.239 campus level and statewide leadership is what's called the Joint 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.400 Council UM. But that's kind of the hierarchy of the 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.640 structure of the union. Okay, yeah, it's fascinating they just 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.600 went to an odd number because I want to get 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.880 onto some think next, which is this division like there's 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:22.560 that I think people are calling them BT ten and 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.200 BT nine, right, yeah, which which could a bit b 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:27.919 T nine a b T nine if you if you 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.359 didn't have the the UCSF person, which would have been 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:36.400 a whole larger sort of mess. M Yeah, Yeah, that 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:40.359 would have been great. So what is this division? Like 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:44.000 there there are two distinct I guess positions as as 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.640 regards bargaining, so preaus you could explain a little bit 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.960 of that. Yeah, absolutely, UM, I mean I think just 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.440 you know, this might be obvious, but just a preface 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.480 with the fact that UM, even within these so called 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:57.760 camps of like b T ten, b T nine, there's 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.200 a lot of heterogeneity, right, And so we saw this 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.320 voting block emerge in the first week of the strike 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:10.400 mainly around UM the wages demand and how UM you know, 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.400 one of the central pieces of that original demand, the 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.760 way that it was crafted was that it was aimed 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.479 at bringing members out of rent burden and so Rent Burton, 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:20.920 I'm sure folks have talked about this before, but it's 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.800 defined as paying more than of your monthly income in rent. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.800 And so that translated in terms of our demand to 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.720 a minimum base wage of dollars a year, along with 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:36.080 wage increases that are attacked onto UM, the increase in 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:40.040 like the median rental price UM for for housing and 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.919 so uh. In that vote, we saw you know, the 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.560 split emerge ten nine, and then we saw UM again, 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.240 this kind of split paralleled in the vote to have 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.800 open or closed bartning sessions and the fact that ten 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.000 people voted to have closed sessions. And again, you know, 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:00.919 since then, another big concession I'm gonna is the term concession, 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:03.400 even though there's a lot of consternation coming from like 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:08.040 u AW leadership, because concession is technically when you lose 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.480 something you've already had, you already have. And so when 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.920 it comes to like the disability and Access article, UM, 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.880 you know, something that we proposed and which you demand, 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.560 that was crafted through and by uh, you know, disability 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.640 just as activists and disabled workers was mandatory supervisor training 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.400 and that was dropped UM. And again we saw that 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:32.120 along the same lines of ten and nine UM. And 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.000 so you know, I think ideologically speaking, if I were 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.960 to kind of you know, analyze this and give my 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.480 my take, it's that the nine people I think are 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:49.960 more committed to UM I suppose being like representative of uh, 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.920 their campus concerns. UM. And so, for example, some of 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.520 those b T nine members I was on the bargaining 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.200 team with a few years ago, and you know, they 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.560 and I didn't necessarily agree on a lot of issues UM. 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.080 But now because their campuses have been vocally in support 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.240 of demands like a cost of living adjustment of COLA 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.800 or in support of UM, you know, not dropping the 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:18.040 amount of child care that we can get folks reimbursed for. UM. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.680 You know, actually listening to their membership has caused them 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.600 to kind of quinde quote side with UM other bargaining 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.040 team members which may have other ideological commitments beyond just 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.680 the contract, right, and so commitment to progressively defunding you 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.360 see p D right the police department and sort of 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:40.599 putting that those funds elsewhere within the university system. UM. 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:42.600 And so yeah, I mean I think, you know, we 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.200 see that kind of split and emerge UM, you know 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.000 now with this bargaining cycle. But this is also split 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.400 that's existed within the union for a while. And so 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:56.839 you look historically at the contracts cycle, right, UM two 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.439 times thousand eleven, and there's always been this kind of division, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.520 and it's red. It's represented in American labor more broadly 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.439 between kind of like socio political unionism on one end 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.000 and we're like liberal or business unionism on the other. 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.040 And so it's not really at least it shouldn't be 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.559 surprising to us that a lot of those BT ten 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:20.440 members or a majority of folks on the statewide executive 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.360 board are aligned with what's called like the administrative Caucus 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:28.000 at the u a W international level, or they're vocally 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:32.920 supportive of current UW President Ray Curry. And in the 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.640 latest general elections UM, even though officially the local didn't 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.480 take a stance UM. On social media there's photos of 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.320 our union president posing with Ray Curry UM for the 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.480 Curry Solidarity Team UM. And so there are those kind 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.520 of like larger structural alignments as well. Yeah, and of 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.679 course it give people underway and even yeah, but like 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.000 you said, within the union as a whole, like yeah, 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.800 and within the whole like American unionization, right, we have 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.480 the a f l c I O, which includes unions 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.400 which are of police officers. And then we have I 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.520 know that the UCSD locals of you only so you 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.079 see locals I should say of u AW have made 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.240 statements about that being an issue, but it's it's still 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:22.280 a thing that's happening. And yeah, it doesn't necessarily and 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:27.040 follow especially in this country, that labor organization is always 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:32.840 progressive in its in its other politics, right, absolutely, Yeah, 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.400 I thought it was really cool that a lot of 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.800 the demands that were made were progressive when when the 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.360 strike began, right like, there was a cops off campus demand, 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:46.240 there was access needs demand and things like that, like 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.520 access to child care for people. And some of them 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.120 some of them were economics, some of them were not 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.760 economics some of them which has always been a thing 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.079 with student organizing. Right, we can go back and I'm 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:58.240 not really good at masks. We can get back to 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.760 and we can we can look at like students making 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.640 political demands and that changing the demands that unions made 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.000 in the nineties, And I think it's cool that that 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.720 you will have those going in. Where are we at 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.360 with the bargaining now? Like it it doesn't look like 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.880 comes a leaving campus from what I can see right now, Yeah, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:25.560 I think. Um So, it's kind of complicated right now 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:31.960 because we've just recently entered voluntary pre impast mediation UM 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.239 and so a lot of the big outstanding articles wages, childcare, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:42.000 the remission of UH nonresident supplemental tuition, which disproportionately affects 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.120 international students, right makes some quota postre more costly to 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.960 the university. UM So, a lot of those open things 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:52.960 now are being discussed through this mediator UM. And I 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.960 think even within that process, UM, we see a lot 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.719 of the same issues emerging that have been present for 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:05.840 the entirety of the bargaining processes, which mainly is that UM. Again, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.160 my position on this is that our bargaining team hasn't 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.240 been pushing enough UM. And you see that kind of 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.720 on two levels. One at the actual table, UM, there's 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.840 a lot of passivity and so when you know the 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.360 bargaining team is kind of explaining their decision to membership, 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.960 it's mainly UM. You know, they're saying things like, well, 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.080 we reduced the wages demand by eleven thousand dollars like 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:31.760 right away, because that's what would be more amenable to 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.680 the university. And of course that is not true, right 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:37.680 because the u C came back to us with like 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:42.040 a dollar offer or something like that, like PITIFULI low UM. 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.120 And so again there's a lot of you know, concessionary 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.360 I think moves UM, and there's the desire to to 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.800 kind of close the gap with the university essentially, and 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:56.920 again that kind of betrays UM. I think a fundamental 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.480 misunderstanding from our bargaining team that some how, if we 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.280 are respectable enough, if we present enough rational arguments that 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.880 you see will respect that right, they'll they'll sort of 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.720 like give in to our demands. UM. That will somehow 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.480 goad them to come in our direction. Whereas you know, 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.160 we should see that you see as like one of 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:19.600 the largest bosses, one of the largest landlords in the country. UM. 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.560 And so of course they're gonna try to scures us 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.280 out of as much as they can, because that's their function. UM. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:29.120 And so on one end, I think we've seen a 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:34.280 lot of core demands get dropped. We've seen um uh 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.840 intense like weakening of our position, as well as the 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.160 really incredible lack of transparency. UM. And so I mentioned 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.640 before the fact that most bargaining meetings or most bargaining 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:50.080 sessions have been closed doors. UM, the fact that a 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:55.040 number of like private like sidebars have taken place, and 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.800 oftentimes membership gets like very vague emails or were or 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.600 we're you know told like oh, progress was made, you know, 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.320 we want certain things, but then the technicality of those 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.360 wins is completely left out of the picture. UM. Even 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:13.360 more recently, bargaining team members voted to uh make the 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.840 votes at the table private, and so after dropping the 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.680 coal to demand. You know, folks were upset and obviously 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.480 reaching out to the bargaining team, showing up to caucuses 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.800 and being upset, and so from there, the bargaining team 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.920 framed this as quote court harassment and essentially voted to 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.120 make all the votes private UM. And so you know, 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.960 we've seen a lot of moves like that that, you know, 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.600 make it clear that the union leadership is trying to 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.960 preserve the union rather than preserve its membership right in 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.600 prisoner of the well being of those folks. And so 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:46.600 I think at the table again we see this kind 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:53.240 of passive or concessionaire UM strategy. And on the ground, 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.720 when it comes to the strikes at all these campuses, 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.520 we see something similar where you know, the majority of 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.040 the action is that we took in the first two 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.320 to three weeks of the strike was just picketing, right, 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.040 And obviously, you know, the picket is a powerful tool. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.560 The picket is a very symbolic tool. But in a 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.760 industry like the Academy, picketing doesn't serve the same purpose 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:16.880 as it might like at a factory, right, we're not 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.760 actually shutting down the workplace. It's a great show of 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.520 force in a way because you have thousands of people out. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.400 But obviously, when we're being required to sign up for 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.840 twenty hours of picketing to get our strike pay, folks 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.280 get exhausted. We will have you know, like huge marches 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:34.800 through campus, go to a rally and it will be 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.680 two hours of people talking UM, and that exhaust people. 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.680 And even when it comes to you know, like ec 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.840 Davis they had the undergrads actually had like an amazing 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.840 direct action where they blockaded the campus every single day. UM, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.760 and that of course led to a legal response from 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.160 the university and the union leadership, you know, rather than 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:59.280 challenge that or you know, take take measures to make 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:04.600 sure that those could organize autonomously of them UM started uh, 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:10.160 like harassing and discipline folks basically UM for taking taking 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.760 part in solidarity actions that may push up against the law. UM. 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.920 And so what we see as like a concessionary attitude 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.120 at the table, I think is translated as a very 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:28.880 or is translated into like respectability politics UM on the ground. UM. Yeah, yeah, No, 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:30.320 I think that's an extent way of phrasing it. And 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.760 that's that's sort of what what you're definitely suggesting and 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.520 what it seems that we've seen. So when does that 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.240 leave people? And I think some of the things that 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.520 have been suggested to be like in in the sort 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.680 of current proposals both from the Union the university would 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.320 leave people with a contract that they would find I'm 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:56.000 guessing unsatisfactory, right, especially after for four and a half 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.920 five weeks of being out of and and possible withholding 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.680 of pay right which we can get onto. But where 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.280 does that leave people? Like? What what sort of feeling 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.040 amongst your Obviously you can't speak for the rank of 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.440 five across the whole university, but what was the sort 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:14.840 of feeling amongst the rank and file with regards to 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.320 what do we do if we get this offer which 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.080 doesn't give us the things that we went out for 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.400 in the first place. Yeah, Um, I think that there 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:29.560 is a lot of just polarization around that question. Um. 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.800 I've heard from a number of folks. Unsurprisingly. I think 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:37.080 people who UM are material at least treated a little 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.640 bit better. Right, we get higher pay already um from 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.719 the university being all right with it, you know. But 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.760 that's that's the most that I hear. I haven't heard anyone, 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.560 even the most staunch supporter of the union establishment say 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.600 that this contractor at least what is bound to come 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.960 to the table at this point is going to be satisfactory, 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:57.959 is going to actually be desirable. It's just seen as like, oh, 0:17:58.000 --> 0:17:59.359 this is the best we can get, and we might 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:04.160 as well settle in like every sense of the word. UM. 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.520 But that being said, there is a large contingent again 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.119 of folks that are totally fine with that, or they're 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.879 tired of striking, or they're seeing a lot of retaliation 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.800 from their supervisors, and the union I think has failed 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.600 to um not only respond to that retaliation and to 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.000 like reensure and empower members, but it's also failed to 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.960 you know, the technical term and organizing would be innoculate, right. UM. 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.600 There is a huge, in my opinion, organizational failure to 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.280 make clear exactly what could happen to folks when we 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.960 go on strike, or to prepare us to hear the 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.359 talking points from the university UM and how to you know, 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:42.639 collectively organize against it, to build up a kind of 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.720 consciousness to resist internalizing that and to say like, oh, 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:47.520 I don't want to strike because my jobs at risk 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.000 or something, and it's like yeah, of course, right, that's 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.399 the point, you know, it's like where we're taking that 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.159 action UM, and so on one end, right, I mean, 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.080 there's a number of reasons to why, and the kind 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.000 of hinted at that, but there is a large content 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.080 of of people who UM would just be okay and 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.400 they're going to vote yess UM. But I also think 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.800 right and as I'm sure you know you've you've seen 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:11.920 around social media or you've talked to other folks who 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.560 are on this side of voting no UM. You know, 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.000 I think a lot of the consternation there comes again 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.439 from the fact that we've dropped so much UM and 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.520 kind of have left our most vulnerable members out to 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.679 drive UM. So whether that comes from you know, reducing 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:34.320 the amount of childcare or dependent health care or UM 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.720 you know again dropping those like really core elements of 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:41.000 the disability and access needs UM articles. When it comes 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.600 to dropping COLA and dropping our wages down to a 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:45.880 point where we would still be in not just rent burden, 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.760 but severe rent burden. UM, it's been leading a lot 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.080 of folks to uh, you know, promote the idea that 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.200 we're going to vote not UM regardless, because even if 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.720 the remaining articles you know, are better than we expected UM, 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.880 and they get tentatively agreed to. There's already too much 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:05.719 that's been lost to make this UH an adequate contract, right, 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:10.000 not even great, not even satisfactory, but just adequate. UM. 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.000 And so you know, of course that kind of UH division, 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.119 as you might say, UM, has brought up a lot 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.520 of tensions, especially in the last few days. UM. But 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:24.320 you know, I think now we're seeing a broader gap 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.600 between these two like sides UM, where there are folks 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.320 that are pretty much again set on voting yes because 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:36.280 it's good enough UM, and there are other folks who 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.240 are pretty staunching in voting now and trying to build 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.360 up that movement UM. And I think the point we're 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:44.960 at now, at least speaking from that like vote no side, 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.760 is that UM, we really need to outline and be 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:53.040 transparent with membership where we can go from there, like 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.679 how do we demystify the process or the process the 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.720 possibility of impasse UM. You know, that's been a concept 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.520 that's around a lot by union leadership, and it's never 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:08.120 fully unpacked UM. And so it's like a fearmongering tool 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.280 that's that's been in my opinion at least like used 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:16.280 to subdue member militancy. Um, so that's one issue. Another 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.880 issue is like how do we reopen certain articles, how 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.280 do we build this quote unquote long haul strike to 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.000 gain more than we've already you know, um given up 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:26.359 at this point. And so I think a lot of 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:31.040 those technicalities that are up in the air are renewed, 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:35.479 sort of like areas of organizing focus. Um. Yeah, so 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:37.840 you don't have to abandon some of those demands which 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.960 we're not economic link. Yeah, that can still be Yeah, 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:43.920 I mean, I guess there's only point in really speculating 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:45.720 how many people will vote yes or no. We'll see 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:50.440 once we see the agreement. And yeah, but like can 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.400 you give us an update then on where striking get 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:55.760 some see progressively? How did it get longer? Right? People 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:57.959 don't want to stand on a picket for five weeks, 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:00.040 six weeks. They don't they want to go home in 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:05.240 the holidays. Um. They have this pressure that's been leveraged, 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:10.360 perhaps unfairly and sometimes like erroneously, that their students will 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:17.560 face immigration or graduation consequences, which is largely untrue. So like, 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:20.120 can you talk about there's there's a chance that people 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:23.240 won't be getting paid right in December? Has that happened 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.679 to anyone. What's the latest with that? UM. SO, A 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.359 lot of what's been going around UM in terms of 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.040 issues with pay. A lot of the news I've seen 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:40.320 concerns post docs, so folks from the local who actually 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.199 just signed an approse that tenant of agreement. UM. So 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.600 the university has put out some language implying that they'll 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:50.720 retroactively doc paid UM and so. UM. Yeah, I can't 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:53.400 like speak to the technicalities of that, UM, but that's 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:56.600