1 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Savor Protection of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogel Bam and today 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about anchovies yep, which is another listeners suggestion, 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: so thank you, Emma. Here it is. I have very 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: very little experience with anchovies. I know they're very divisive. 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,159 Speaker 1: I know I don't hate them, but I can't. I 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: doubt I've ever had a good quality anchovy, but really 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: like lower quality ones. I didn't hate um. And I 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: want to especially, I want to shout out my friend Joe, 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: who I told I was working on this, and we 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: went down this rabbit hole of I was like, can 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: you just get anchovy pizza anymore? Is that like still 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: a thing? And we did all of this research and 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: I chose Dominoes, but we could have chosen. I wanted 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: to know, like if I went to a chain right right, 16 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: like a national, like normal American chain of pizza, couldn't 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: get an anchovy on it? In this the Lord Yeah, Lauren, 18 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: there's a map. People have done the work for us. 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: There's a map by like Dawsonville, Georgia. Lauren, you can 20 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: get that Domino's has anchovies, but some places in Atlanta. No, um, 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: you know that that that makes sense? They are, yes, 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: a divisive pizza topping. Um. I did go through a 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: pretty serious anchovies on pizza kick for a couple of years, 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: and then very suddenly I was like, no, not into 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: that anymore. Um. And you know, I don't know, maybe 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: maybe it was maybe something turned me off of them. 27 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: And I think it was just like one bad anchovy 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: experience at like the camells on ponds that used to 29 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: be next to our office that no longer is that 30 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: I still miss dearly. Um, not that I'm in the 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: office anymore, but I'm sure, I'm sure it was to 32 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: to no one's fault. I was just like this, all 33 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: the fishes not for me, never again, but maybe sometimes 34 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: but maybe sometimes. You know, I think I'm ready. I 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: think I'm ready to jump back on the anchovie wagon. 36 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: Um see see what happened. Certainly, doing the reading for this, 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: I had so many cravings. I want to eat all 38 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: of those things and Wanka vision still doesn't exist. So 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: I'm pretty mad about it. Alas a lot of the 40 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: articles I read from people who are almost evangelist for 41 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: anchovies and pizza. Uh, and anchovie pizza. I guess um 42 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: said that the problem most of the time is if 43 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: you put it on before you cook it. That you 44 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: should put the anchovies on right after you cook the pizza, 45 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: and then it's it doesn't like, I guess get into 46 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: the dough as much or something, and it's not so overpowering. Yeah, 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: I feel like heating, heating those those anchovies is going 48 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: to concentrate that salt, and that's probably that's might not 49 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: be what you're looking to do. You also might want 50 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: to rinse them before you put them on a pizza. 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: We're getting ahead of ourselves. Um. Anchovies do always make 52 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: me think of a thing that I believe I've mentioned 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: on the show before, which is um this episode of 54 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: Buffy the Vampire Slayer called Conversations with Dead People UM, 55 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: in which the character Dawn is eating some pizza and 56 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: it's apparently anchovy pizza because she does this little song 57 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: and dance and saw like anchovies. Anchovies are so delicious. 58 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: I like you more than all the other fishes, um 59 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: and uh, and it makes me really happy because it's 60 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: super cute. UM. I did check because I couldn't. I 61 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: was I was dithering on on on how that came about. 62 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: I know that I've like watched the or listen to 63 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: the m to the producer's commentary on that one, but 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: I couldn't remember exactly what they said about it anyway. Uh, 65 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: Jane Epsenson wrote that that part of it. Maybe she 66 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: wrote it for herself. I don't know. Um she didn't 67 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: tweet about anchovies back in March anyway. Um I didn't 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: have to him to check the DVD commentary today. Um 69 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: So the the mystery is still out there about how 70 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: and why that line got thrown in. I suspect it's 71 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: just that Espenson like Sanchovi's so that would make sense. 72 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: It would, and I think this could be easily solved. 73 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: So I have faith in you and our listeners. One 74 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: way or the other, we will get to the bottom 75 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: of this. My my trust. EPs two is up and 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: running now, so I have the capacity to watch DVDs again. 77 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: Although I just remembered that I left my entire Buffy 78 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: tower with my dad. So there you go. Well, you know, 79 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: one step forward, Well you'll get there. You know. I'm 80 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: very happy to hear you have a PlayStation to a 81 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: working PlayStation two as well, because I do. Oh yeah, yeah, 82 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: we play to be honest, a lot of tech In 83 00:04:53,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: five and Soul Caliber three two. One of those probably 84 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: in this household. Yeah maybe I don't know. I play 85 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: a lot of silent Hill Kingdom Herts pole Face. Anyway, 86 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: we're getting off here, seriously, are okay? Sorry? Sorry coming up? 87 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: I did want to put it in here. There's several 88 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: related Ish episodes catchup surprisingly or not surprisingly if you 89 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: listen to that episode Worcester Sauce and Pizza has already 90 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: alluded to if you want to learn more about that. 91 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, we're not talking about those things today. 92 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: Where not our question? And chovies what are they? Well, 93 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: and chovie is sort of a catch all term for 94 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: just a whole bunch of a species of small, skinny, 95 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: silvery saltwater fish in the family In growl a day 96 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: depending on the species. They grow to about one to 97 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: eight inches in length that's about two and a half 98 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: to c and live about four years in the wild. 99 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: They're a cool water fish something like sixty to seventy 100 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit, which is about fifteen to twenty one celsius um. 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, different species over a hundred like maybe up 102 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: to a hundred and fifty are found just off the 103 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: coast in the temperate regions of the Atlantic, Pacific, and 104 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: Indian oceans, as well as the Mediterranean and Black seas, 105 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: and they're a really important part of the of the 106 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: food chain, like the you know, nature food chain, not 107 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: the human food chain um everywhere that they live because 108 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: they're a type of forage fish um, which means that 109 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: they're just you know, we little things that live in 110 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: these large schools and they eat algae um, you know, 111 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: make use of those of those plant nutrients, and then 112 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: are in turn eaten by lots of other larger animals, 113 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: including birds, mammals, and other fish. They're sold fresh in 114 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: mostly local markets where they're caught, but are also widely 115 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: processed um canned or cured for up to eight months 116 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: before being preserved in oil or vinegar or salt or 117 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: some combination thereof um, either whole or file aid with 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: or without skin and bones, so you can eat the 119 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: skin and bones. So yeah, oh and uh, and I 120 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: would I would liken them to to mackerel if you're 121 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: familiar with mackerel um uh. Anchovies are are like a oily, briny, firm, fleshed, 122 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: savory fishy fish um, and those flavors can kind of 123 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: be toned down and balanced out if you use them 124 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: fresh or canned, or if you use the the preserved 125 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: ones as a sort of like seasoning more than a 126 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: main feature, because those flavors get turned away up through 127 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: that preservation um. You know, curing them means that you're 128 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: doing some fermentation, which means that you're gonna get all 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: of these funky tart flavors from bacteria pool um and 130 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: and also from the way that some of those oils 131 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: in them, those um really good like Omega three fatty 132 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: acids breakdown over time. UM. I will say that that 133 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: the the vinegar brines are a little bit more balancing 134 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: than just the salt or oil packed ones. You get 135 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: that acid bite that helps cut some of the other, 136 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: uh strong flavors in there. But anyway, Yeah, in my reading, 137 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: by the way, I found a whole bunch of scientific 138 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: papers investigating like the exact effects of stuff like amounts 139 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: of salt and temperatures and lengths of time used in 140 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: curing on the finished product, like the resulting textures and 141 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: flavor compounds and aroma compounds. Love it, love all of 142 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: it research. I love it. Yes, here in the US, anchovies, 143 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: especially on pizza, are frequently derided, but people who like 144 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: them seem to love. Oh yeah, yeah, they can be 145 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: very salty, those salt packed ones, if you don't rinse 146 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: them off first, very salty, very strong flavor. Um. The 147 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: ones served on pizza, they're usually those cured ones. Um. 148 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: And you know, pizza isn't usually a challenging dish um 149 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: and like a whole chunk of a preserved an chovy 150 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: is a challenging flavor. It's it's not what people expect 151 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: from a slice of pizza. Yeah, very bold, it is. 152 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, those those salt packed ones are similar 153 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: in texture and color and saltiness. Um to like salt 154 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: cured ham products like preshido and you know, like come 155 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: on like like we like salty and savory flavors. Um. 156 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: If you like capers or ham or parmesan cheese, Like, 157 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: as long as you don't hate fish, there's no reason 158 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: that you should not give anchovies a try. Um. They 159 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: are so good as a feature on flatbreads and toasts 160 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: and pizzas and pastas made into dips. Um. You know 161 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: cold or warmed through or pan or deep fried straight 162 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: um or or or fried and bread crumbs and h 163 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: Antovies are also processed into meals, pastes, and oils. UM 164 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: and are often the fish used in Asian Pacific fish sauces, 165 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: which are sauces made from fish that's fermented until they 166 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: basically liquefy. Um. And they're the basis for like all 167 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: dang kinds of cuisines from from that area. Like you 168 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: could not have kim chi or fu or pad tie 169 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: without fish sauce or I mean like you could, Um, 170 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: indeed you can and you do, especially in vegetarian cuisines 171 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: from those areas. You might not get fish sauce and 172 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: those recipes. But yeah, it's just a really base line 173 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: part of a lot of cuisines from that entire quadrant 174 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: of the world. UM. And here too, um. Anchovies are 175 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: used to make all sorts of things where their flavor 176 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: isn't a supporting role. Um. They are a key ingredient 177 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: in traditional caesar salad dressing. UM. And they are so 178 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: good in dressings and sauces for everything from salads to 179 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: pasta's two roasted vegetables to meet um. They're often a 180 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: part of tapannads and put NSCA's all over the place 181 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 1: good times. I love this because I do feel in 182 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: the United States, I especially grew up thinking everyone just 183 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: hated anchovies, and I was kind of like, well, why 184 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: are we still putting them on pizza? And if everyone's agreed, 185 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: but we're coming out real strong in favor of giving 186 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: the anchovia try But hold on, what about the nutrition? 187 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: They're good for you generally? I mean, they can be 188 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: a bit high in calories, but you know, you're usually 189 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: not eating like a whole bunch of them. And the 190 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: fats in them are those are those good fats. They're 191 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: high in protein too, and a good source of a 192 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: few minerals um. Of course, the salt preserved ones can 193 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: have a lot of sodium. The oil preserved ones can 194 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: have a lot of oil um. So you know, it's 195 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: it's a it's generally a use sparingly kind of issue. 196 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: But I don't know many people who would not naturally 197 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: use them sparingly. It sounds like a challenge. It's not 198 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: don't do it unless you want to do it, but 199 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: the unless you want to, I mean, hey, hey, treat 200 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: yourself to too many anchovies. I can't stop you, but 201 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: only in moderation, probably not regularly, not all the time. No, no, 202 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: eat a vegetable, Eat a vegetable. We do have numbers 203 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: speaking up Yah Morocco is the largest producer of canned anchovies, 204 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: and they also boast the largest anchovy salting factory in 205 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: the world, which employs four hundred people. Peru has a 206 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: really large market to although most produced in that country 207 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: end up as bait or feed for fish, always a 208 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: bigger fish UM, and the anchovy market is growing. The 209 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: Unitation's Food and Agriculture Organization reported the production numbers of 210 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: salted anchovies jumped from forty nine thousand, six hundred tons 211 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: in two thousand to seventy two thousand, five hundred tons 212 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: and two thousand eight And this is nothing compared to 213 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: what other animals consume in anchovies UM. In just one 214 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: wildlife refuge in the North Pacific, researchers estimate that seabirds 215 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: alone can consume over ninety thousand tons of anchovies per 216 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: year UM, and also note that this is only a 217 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: tiny segment of the total anchovy market UM. The total 218 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: biomass of just the Peruvian anchovie can amount to over 219 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: twenty million tons per year UM, and the catch can 220 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: be over thirteen million tons. South African, Argentine, Brazilian, and 221 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: Japanese anchovies can also be caught in the millions of 222 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: tons per year and by biomass. Anchovies are the most 223 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: fished marine life in the world. Wow. The fish meal 224 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: industry in Peru employs tens of thousands of people and 225 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: it's worth one point five billion dollars. Yes. Um the 226 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: f a O, which is the organization I mentioned earlier, 227 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization named the peruving 228 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: anchovy as quote the most heavily exploited fish in world history. 229 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: The government responded by putting a cap on the annual 230 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: anchovy catch at seven dred thirty four thousand tons, and 231 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: place bands on where people can fish. The fines are 232 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: breaking these laws can reach up to three million dollars. However, 233 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: this has in part led to a large black market 234 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: for anchovies in that country. It's estimated that in region 235 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 1: of southern Peru alone, illegal markets produced twenty two thousand 236 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: tons of fish. Who um yeah and and side side 237 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: note here regarding the populations of these fish, I found 238 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: conflicting information about populations of other anchovies around the world. Um. 239 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: They they're more difficult to track than larger fish, you know, 240 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: and their populations do fluctuate naturally with changes in climate 241 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: over time. It does seem like human creative climate change 242 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: is affecting their populations too though, and so um the 243 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: fishing industry is being warned to just watch out for 244 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: that and you know, make sure they're not over fishing, 245 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: and to update those those catch limits to reflect what 246 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: these new populations of fish are doing. Um. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 247 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: I found several papers that I've found fascinating of scientists 248 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: using um, the anchovie and I believe sardines is populations 249 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to kind of track what's going on in particular. Biodome 250 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: is definitely not what I wanted to talk about. I 251 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: mean I do, but not right now. Biosphere perhaps is 252 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: what you're thinking. I actually, ever since we mentioned that 253 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: on an episode, it's on my watch list. That is 254 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: not a joke anyway. I found that really interesting. And 255 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: anchovy's are very revered in Catalonia. There's assault and an 256 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: Chevy festival there in Lascala or they hand out a 257 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: Golden and Chevy Award. Beautiful, wonderful, Oh my gosh, I 258 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: want to go so badly. The Golden Anchovy Award. Um. 259 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: Now they're not so revered here in America, at least 260 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: not yet. I do think that's really changing, um coming 261 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: yeah exactly. Yeah. I think the story I grew up 262 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: with that they're all bad, it's definitely fading away. Some 263 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: of that's left over it. I think it's changing. Um. 264 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: According to Slate, one Piece area owner estimated that of 265 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: his weekly eighteen thousand customers, only fifty order an chovie pizza. Yeah. 266 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: And it was even a running joke anchovies on pizza 267 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: in the movie Love for Boy, which I've never seen, 268 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: but it came up in my research. So okay, there 269 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: you go. I believe it's true. Me too. I have 270 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: not seen it either. I couldn't tell you anything about it. 271 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: So that's our stance on. We do have some history 272 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: for you. We do not about Lover Boy, about anchovies, um. 273 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: And we will get into that as soon as we 274 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: get back from this. Quick break for a word from 275 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring, Yes, thank you. 276 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: So anchovies are old. Yeah, yeah, absorbed. This may headline 277 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: from Life Science. I suggest you close your eyes and 278 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: really take this in. Okay, okay, Ancient shape shifting vampire 279 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: demon and Joby had saber tooths and fangs, what shifting 280 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 1: vampire demon with thanks. Yeah, I saw a lot of 281 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: headlines about this UM, and then I saw that you 282 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: had already put in a note, and I just and 283 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: I just didn't read them, which I regret because it 284 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: sounds like a pretty cool, a pretty cool ancient creature. 285 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: UM looks kind of like a barracuda. It's pretty looking. No, 286 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: I believe you. I mean, obviously these are rendering scientists 287 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: think they look like but the drawings freaked me out. Okay, Um, 288 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: and this terrifying creature apparently lived about forty five million 289 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: years ago. Uh, the dates on that can vary pretty 290 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: widely when you get back and millions of years. But 291 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: something like that, and the closest modern relative to it 292 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: these days is the anchovy. Wow. So humans have been 293 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: pretty much salting fish since ancient times. People in the Mediterranean, 294 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: where anchovies are believed to have originated, and specifically ancient Greeks, 295 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: were huge proponents of salting fish. They salted all kinds 296 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: of fish, sardines, eels, tuna, herring, but the anchovy was 297 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: perhaps the most prized um. They even had different words 298 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: for various types of salt carrying that would be used 299 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: in this process. The Roman Empire used anchovies to make 300 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: a well loved condiment called garum that was as expensive 301 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: as the finest perfume available at the time and also 302 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: reportedly eaten raw. As say it with me, an aphrodisiac. Yep, yep, 303 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: anchovies not garum. Um, Yeah, yeah, um and garam is 304 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: the basis of what went on to become a bunch 305 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: of sauces, but one of them being catch up and 306 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: one of them being other standard fish sauces. And they 307 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: salted this these fish by placing a lotch of her 308 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: pieces of the fish and barrels of salt to leach 309 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: that moisture out of the meat. The resulting liquid was 310 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: strained and left in the sun to ferment and balla 311 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: garum a k fish shauce. Ancient Romans put this on 312 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, the fish and garum, like bread, 313 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: and later Italians also put cured fish on bread. And 314 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: this was the believed to be the precursor to anchovie 315 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: pizza and you can yes, you can see our pizza 316 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: episode uh for more on that. Pizza came around around 317 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: the eighteenth or nineteenth century. Um in this context, because 318 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: I believe it or not, A lot of people want 319 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: to claim that one too. Yes, anchovies were one of 320 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: the early topics people went for when pizza did come around. 321 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: Because they were cheap, plentiful, salty, and long lasting. They 322 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: were popular in the lower and middle classes. By the 323 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: Middle Ages, anchovies were a staple of the poorer class 324 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: in Europe, largely produced in the Mediterranean and particularly a 325 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: areas that also produced a lot of salt, which makes sense. 326 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: One area in France on the Mediterranean coast, Colliere, became 327 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: so well known for their salting of anchovies that King 328 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: Louis the eleventh gave them an exemption from the salt out. Yeah, 329 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: dozens of salt houses, fleets of boats with sales that 330 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: were sometimes painted. It sounds like they were very colorful. Um. 331 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: And sometimes these boats were painted by famous artists, all 332 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: trying to get these anchovies. Um. When Sicilian salt traders 333 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: arrived in northern Spain, they helped give birth to the 334 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: anchovie industry. They're one that still operates to this day. 335 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: Or I could get the well, I can't get it, 336 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: but somebody can get the golden anchovy award Um. In 337 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: the fifteenth century, Indonesians had a fish sauce made with anchovies, 338 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: and yes, a lot of these uh sauces. Fish sauces 339 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: in Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines all developed with anchovies, 340 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: like you said, Lauren, and a lot of them are 341 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: much older than that, but they were around. Yeah. That 342 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: that's when. That's when English language or European language records 343 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: go back to, because that's when we invaded those countries. Yes, yes, 344 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: Lauren is making a very grim cheers in face at me. Yeah, yep. 345 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: The age of colonization as as we've talked about many 346 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: times anyway, Yes, Uh. London's John Burgesson Sun debut a 347 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: sauce called The Essence of Anchovies in seventeen seventy five, 348 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,239 Speaker 1: and this stuff was popular. Lord Byron mentioned it in 349 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: an eighteen seventeen poem. Writer Walter Scott named it the 350 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: best Fish Sauce in eighteen three and the Sauce one 351 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: Awards at the eighteen sixty seven Paris Exhibition in the 352 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy three London International Exhibition, and it went on 353 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: multiple expeditions to Antarctica like with people obviously, not just 354 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: the sauce. But it was a people. It wasn't like 355 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: a member of the team. Like it wasn't wearing like 356 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: a sailors cap. No, but now I want that too. 357 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: Um No. People demanded that it. It It had to come 358 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: with them. If they were going to make this a 359 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: long and larger's journey, they needed this fish sauce. Yah. Yeah. 360 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: In the nineteenth century, Collier fisher folks added lights to 361 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: their boats as a way to lure anchovies to them 362 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: because apparently they liked moonlight, so this was a way 363 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: to do that. But it was perhaps too effective, and 364 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: it put a serious dent in the population of anchovies 365 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: in this area. To combat that, big steal boats were 366 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: ushered in after World War Two, and since they were 367 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: too large for the harpor of Collier, a lot of 368 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: the salting houses ended up shutting down. And then when 369 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: Italian immigrants began arriving to the US in waves in 370 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundred's early nineteen hundreds, some of them 371 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: opened pizzerie is. At first, anchovies were offered as toppings, 372 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: but depending on the location, uh they were edged out 373 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: by other more popular toppings. Um. In a lot of cases, 374 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: toppings that Americans are more familiar with and seemingly over 375 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: time they garnered a reputation here that it's only just 376 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: beginning to shut off. But yeah, I think it is. Yeah, 377 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: I think it's time. I think it's time for anchovies 378 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: to experience, um, not even a resurgence here in the States, 379 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: but but a surgeons and original original surge. Um. Yeah, 380 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: because you know you can you can buy them. You 381 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: can you can find them fresher frozen probably if you're 382 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: looking for him, but but you can also get them 383 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: shelf stable and preserved. And they've got all of those 384 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: like like they can have rather all of those cool 385 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: like like weird fermented flavors that a lot of people 386 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: are are really into playing with right now. UM and 387 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: UM a lot of really great umami. UM. One of 388 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: the flavor molecules in them is one of the precursors 389 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: to um glutamate. UM. I conclude a mean, maybe I'm 390 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: not don't quote me on that, I'm quoting that from memory. 391 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: Um and uh and so yeah, so it's just just 392 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: a little little mommy bombs. They're they're trying. And you 393 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: can get anchovy paste and you can just use like 394 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: a tiny little bit in recipes to just add a 395 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: little what's that. Yeah, I saw a lot of recipes. 396 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: I want to try researching this one, and one was uh, 397 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: kind of a marinara sauce but with yes, um, and 398 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: I do think a lot of us me included if 399 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: probably I've probably had it in a top and not 400 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: and not realized it was in totally yeah yeah um, 401 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: and then probably in pasta sauces as well. Um. Yeah, 402 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: because you can just just the same way that you 403 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: can find tubes of tomato paste in some grocery stores, 404 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: you can find tubes of anchovy paste and you can. Yeah. 405 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: It's just it's great. It's good stuff. Try it unless 406 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: you don't eat fish, and then maybe don't. Yeah, you 407 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: know you do. You were just humble food podcasters excited 408 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: about things food related. Yes, yes, we're also excited about 409 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: listener mail though, we are, and we will get into 410 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: some of that as soon as we get back from 411 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: one more quick break for a word from our sponsor. 412 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: And we're back, Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, and 413 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: we're back with fish. I just did a really weird thing, 414 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: even for me, But that's all right. I was, I was, 415 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: I was acting it all out. She was she was 416 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: there was there's a lot of little little little hands 417 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: making little swimming fish gestures happening. Yeah. And then I 418 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: looked around suspiciously for a beat. Yeah, and and there 419 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: was like some schooling action that was going on. I 420 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: don't know if this all came through. I hope it did. 421 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: Just start recording news were we need to preserve this genius. 422 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: Rachel wrote, I am a foodie and just recently started 423 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: listening to podcasts, including yours. Just to give you an idea. 424 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: During the first month of the pandemic, I baked through 425 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: a twenty five pound sack of flower but sadly I 426 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: did not check the amount of butter used. I will 427 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: say that I made a lot of croissants, Danish pastry, pie, strudal, 428 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: perfect rolls, and lots of other goodies at that time. 429 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: You mentioned in your podcast that making better was rather 430 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: time consuming. It took some muscle power shaking action if 431 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: you want to make it at home. However, you should 432 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: know that my daughter successfully made better once by leaving 433 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: on the kitchen aid a little too long while whipping cream. 434 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: It was quite the shocked anyway. I just thought, if 435 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: you wanted an easy way to do it well, I 436 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: thank you. Yes, I like that. We've got a few options. 437 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: You know, can make just a little a shake king 438 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: a jar or if you got a kitchen aid you do, 439 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: just go for it. Yeah, butter options uh abound. I 440 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: think it's time to give this a try. Yeah. Yeah, no, man. 441 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: There's also a lot of um or or at least 442 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: one pretty famous anchovy preparation that's like an anchovy butter 443 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: that's like that's like ground like like an anchovy paste 444 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: mixed with butter and seasonings. Um. There's one called, um 445 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: the Gentleman's Relish I think is the brand name, and 446 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: I agree with your reaction. That's hilarious. Um it's a 447 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: it's a it's a British thing. I guess, um, I 448 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: guess maybe like the Two Fat Ladies or something. Uh, 449 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: we're into it anyway, um um, Sam wrote, I just 450 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: listened to the classic Savor episode on Butter. I remember 451 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: when I saw the episode of my feed, I was 452 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: shocked that you hadn't done an episode on butter. Then, 453 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: of course I realized one you had too. Not only 454 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: had you done one episode, it had two parts and three. 455 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: As the episodes started up with past Annie and Lauren, 456 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: I remembered I had already listened to it. Of course, 457 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: you had made at least one episode on butter. You 458 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: had a Julia Child episode, and let's face it, the 459 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: two are pretty much synonymous. Butter is a magical substance 460 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: and plays a central role in so many of my 461 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: favorite things to make, Brios, madelines, and my nemesis, croissants. 462 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: I think I may have even written in about this 463 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: at the time. Croissans on my stress reliever for two reasons. First, 464 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: they take hours, sometimes even days to make, and so 465 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: by day four of rolling and cooling and shaping and cutting, 466 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: when I finally have a tray of freshly baked croissants, 467 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: I've forgotten what I was stressed about to begin with. 468 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: The second reason is much simpler, much more of an 469 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: animal instinct. I have to somehow negotiate a massive five 470 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: grand block of butter, four or five sticks of butter 471 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: for American listeners, and it's very cold, rock solid. In fact. 472 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: To get that block flat, I bring my rolling pin 473 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: down on top of it, hitting it over and over, 474 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: working out my rage in the oven. What makes a 475 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: croissant rise? It certainly isn't yeast. Yeast, as Lauren will 476 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: probably tell you, dies at around thirty eight degrees celsius. 477 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: The oven for croissants is preheated to two d and 478 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: fifty and then turned down. The aim is to cook 479 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: the outside of the croissant quickly before the butter melts 480 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: out the side. However, multiple things happen to croissants, which 481 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: are pure magic. As I write this, I'm listening to 482 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,239 Speaker 1: your croissant recipe. Because I've been listening to you for 483 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: so long, I not only get cravings for all the food, 484 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: I get sudden nostalgic urges to listen to your classic episodes. 485 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: When the yeast develops the dough during proofing or making whoopy, 486 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: as my old pastry instructor would say, it produces carbon dioxide. 487 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: At the same time, think about the butter. If you've 488 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: proved your croissans in fridge or overnight in a cold kitchen, 489 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,479 Speaker 1: your butter is shaped and multiple layers, depending on your recipe, 490 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: up to seven hundred and sixty layers of butter, and 491 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: then curled around into a spiral croissant, solidifying into that 492 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: shape when forced to heat up quickly. The gas which 493 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: is already in the dough expands, and at the same time, 494 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: the remaining water in the butter evaporates and turns into steam, 495 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: causing the croissant to rise as the gases are forced 496 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: out from between the layers of thinly compressed butter. If 497 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: made perfectly, the butter will combine with the flour dough 498 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: to create a pastry film of sorts, which catches the 499 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: melting butter and steam, meaning the croissant will rise higher 500 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: and retain more butter. The timing of the chilling and 501 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: heating of butter is key. The outer layers brown and 502 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: become flaky and crisp, but the inner layers need to 503 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: become soft and lately chewy, all the while it needs 504 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: to be actually cooked on the inside by the time 505 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: you've reached the right stage of the mayard reaction to 506 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: give your croissants that beautiful caramel brown color. I strive four, 507 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: but if only recently managed to achieve. I've been baking 508 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: my entire life, and I've had some training in pastry 509 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: and desserts, but I could never make croissants no matter 510 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: how hard I tried. I have produced possibly hundreds of 511 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: burnt or dry or underdone or ghostly white or cakey 512 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: croissants in my time, and even though my friends and 513 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: colleagues would still eat them, I never really felt like 514 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: I could call myself a true master baker. I can 515 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: make brioche, puff pastry, even Danish pastries with relative ease, 516 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: but I could never manage the croissants that blissful first bite, 517 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: where the brown, crisp flakes of buttery pastry fly everywhere 518 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 1: like edible shrapnel. I thought was my elusive white whale 519 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: simply not meant to be come lockdown. Though, I've had 520 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: significantly more time on my hands, and uh, this is 521 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: my final year of my PhD, so I've also been 522 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: quite stressed. So I've been baking more croissants. I finally 523 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: managed it. Hours of practice have all come to this. 524 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: I could have shouted for joy, but it was actually 525 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: five thirty am when I pulled them out at the oven. 526 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: The secret French butter. It costs quite a bit more, 527 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: but it gets results, higher water content or something, yes, yes, 528 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: uh huh heck, and good job, Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, 529 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: you've done your research. You've haven't let past failures keep 530 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: you down, and this is very impressive and I'm sure 531 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: quite the stress believer. Yeah, it sounds like it sounds 532 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: like it's both stressful and stress were leaving in like 533 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: interesting amounts, right, I love I love that You're like, yeah, 534 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: it's a distraction. And also I get to wax stuff. 535 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, and you and you get croissans at the end. 536 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: Oh that's delightful. Also, congratulations on it being your your 537 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: last year, your PhD. Yeah, double congrats. Well, thanks to 538 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 1: both of those a listeners for writing to us. If 539 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us, you can, and 540 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. Our email is 541 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: hello at savor pod dot com. We are also on 542 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, 543 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: all three places. Our handle is at saver pod and 544 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: we do hope to hear from you. Savor is production 545 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my Heart Radio, 546 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: you can visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 547 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as 548 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: always to our superproducers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks 549 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: to you for listening, and we hope that lots more 550 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: good things are coming your way.