WEBVTT - Are the Kids Alright? 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:23.996 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:27.396 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.276 --> 0:00:31.916 This week, I'm focusing on an aspect of our post 0:00:31.956 --> 0:00:37.036 pandemic world that is increasingly being discussed among parents, but 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:40.276 I haven't yet really heard discussed in the media, and 0:00:40.316 --> 0:00:43.036 it hits close to home for me. And that is 0:00:43.476 --> 0:00:46.156 what to do about the fact that most of us, 0:00:46.356 --> 0:00:49.436 as caring parents, try to limit our kids screen time 0:00:49.476 --> 0:00:53.276 before COVID and then utterly gave up on that once 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:58.636 school life and pretty much everything else went virtual. Today's 0:00:58.636 --> 0:01:01.356 teenagers spend and estimated six and a half hours a 0:01:01.476 --> 0:01:04.276 day on their devices, and that I think is a 0:01:04.356 --> 0:01:07.996 number that is not counting the time they spend going 0:01:08.036 --> 0:01:11.716 to school on their licence. Here to help us think 0:01:11.796 --> 0:01:15.556 about how to approach this challenge, if it even is 0:01:15.596 --> 0:01:19.236 a challenge, is psychologist and New York Times best selling 0:01:19.316 --> 0:01:24.716 author Wendy Mogul. Wendy has written several famous books about parenting, 0:01:25.036 --> 0:01:28.756 including The Blessing of a Skinned Knee and Voice Lessons 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:33.556 for Parents. She's the host of a podcast, Nurture Versus Nurture, 0:01:33.996 --> 0:01:37.116 and she's here with me to talk about parenting in 0:01:37.196 --> 0:01:42.996 a distinctively challenging time. Wendy, it's such a huge pleasure 0:01:43.036 --> 0:01:45.516 to have you on the podcast. I've admired your work 0:01:45.596 --> 0:01:49.556 tremendously and it's also affected my parenting. I wanted to 0:01:49.556 --> 0:01:53.196 ask you about a very concrete problem that I am 0:01:53.196 --> 0:01:55.676 confronting now, and I have the feeling I must be 0:01:55.716 --> 0:01:58.956 one of millions confronting it, like a lot of parents. 0:01:59.036 --> 0:02:02.876 I tried very hard fighting the trend to be responsible 0:02:02.956 --> 0:02:05.916 about my kids in their use of tech and particularly phones, 0:02:06.836 --> 0:02:12.436 and then came COVID and experts, psychologists like you, other 0:02:12.676 --> 0:02:17.796 experts in childhood development basically said, you know, parents, you 0:02:17.836 --> 0:02:20.756 can sort of give up on this now because your kids' 0:02:20.796 --> 0:02:24.036 lives are now completely online. They're stuck at home. First 0:02:24.036 --> 0:02:27.356 it was lockdown, then it was school remotely. They need 0:02:27.396 --> 0:02:30.796 to have social interaction, and so their way they're getting 0:02:30.796 --> 0:02:35.236 at right now is through their phones. So I gave up. 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:41.516 Now as we begin to emerge into the post COVID world, 0:02:41.636 --> 0:02:44.516 knock on wood, it would be nice to try to 0:02:44.596 --> 0:02:48.316 return to something like a reasonable model with respect to tech, 0:02:49.556 --> 0:02:53.276 and yet I do not see the roadback. I don't 0:02:53.316 --> 0:02:58.116 see the roadback because the depth of let's call it, 0:02:58.156 --> 0:03:01.876 to use a polite term, connection to the devices is 0:03:01.916 --> 0:03:04.756 now so profound. Then, by the way, not only for 0:03:04.796 --> 0:03:06.116 the kids, I think this is true of a lot 0:03:06.116 --> 0:03:08.636 of adults as well. So I want to start by 0:03:08.636 --> 0:03:11.876 asking you, did we get it wrong in the first place? 0:03:12.556 --> 0:03:17.676 And what can we do now? What I see in 0:03:17.916 --> 0:03:20.076 so many of the parents that I've been working with 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:28.036 through this very very unusual period of time is tremendous 0:03:28.156 --> 0:03:33.716 ambivalence and double standards. So we don't want the kids 0:03:33.916 --> 0:03:38.556 on their devices too much, and yet for us we 0:03:38.596 --> 0:03:42.996 can always say it's work. So for example, you and 0:03:43.036 --> 0:03:45.596 I are talking to each other right now, and we're 0:03:45.636 --> 0:03:48.556 on opposite side of the country. We are looking at 0:03:48.596 --> 0:03:53.196 each other. We're making a podcast. It's so easy to 0:03:53.276 --> 0:04:02.076 justify on lots of levels as a worthy enterprise. And yeah, right, 0:04:02.196 --> 0:04:06.956 we'll see, we hope. So exactly what I see parents 0:04:07.036 --> 0:04:10.756 doing a lot. Two things I see are one is 0:04:12.596 --> 0:04:19.116 not modeling what they are hoping to see in their children, 0:04:19.916 --> 0:04:25.876 and the other is a kind of disgruntled ambivalence. So 0:04:26.236 --> 0:04:32.836 the parents say they are scornful and disparaging and sometimes 0:04:33.076 --> 0:04:38.836 naively mocking of the children's And I have air quotes 0:04:38.956 --> 0:04:44.756 on for our listeners right now addiction and then they say, okay, 0:04:44.796 --> 0:04:49.996 go ahead, they kind of give up with some disdain. 0:04:51.076 --> 0:04:55.276 And so my model for parents and almost everything right 0:04:55.276 --> 0:05:01.716 now is to treat your child as your spirit guide. 0:05:03.116 --> 0:05:09.036 Your teenagers fourteen and fifteen years old, they know fantastic 0:05:09.276 --> 0:05:12.796 things that go on on the web that you don't 0:05:12.836 --> 0:05:17.236 know anything about. That is for sure. So it's a 0:05:17.316 --> 0:05:25.676 combination of incredibly alarming because technology is changing so rapidly 0:05:26.556 --> 0:05:30.516 and it feels hard for parents to keep up. And 0:05:31.196 --> 0:05:36.596 so then we take this position that is a cross 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:41.956 between ludite and addicted ourselves, and so the kids just 0:05:42.156 --> 0:05:45.916 write us off, and rightly, I would say yes. And 0:05:46.396 --> 0:05:50.876 so the first piece is to be enchanted with their enchantment. 0:05:51.956 --> 0:05:55.196 So have your children and I know the answer to 0:05:55.276 --> 0:05:57.756 this already, but I want to hear it. Have they 0:05:58.076 --> 0:06:02.156 introduced you to things you would never have known about 0:06:02.276 --> 0:06:06.596 that you were delighted to learn? For sure, There's no 0:06:06.716 --> 0:06:10.276 question about it. And also no question in my mind 0:06:10.436 --> 0:06:14.476 that for all of its downsides, social media broadly speaking, 0:06:14.556 --> 0:06:17.116 has a lot of upsides. It's created new forms of 0:06:17.196 --> 0:06:22.396 human connection and interaction, and those things are wonderful. Some 0:06:22.436 --> 0:06:24.836 of them are wonderful. I guess I think of it 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:27.836 though a lot like other new technologies they say they 0:06:27.916 --> 0:06:30.436 printing press in its day, you know, the printing press 0:06:30.436 --> 0:06:33.516 brought a lot of extraordinary possibility of the sharing and 0:06:33.516 --> 0:06:36.636 spread of information, and it also brought the wars of 0:06:36.676 --> 0:06:44.196 religion and profound polarization, violence, hate, and it took centuries 0:06:44.596 --> 0:06:47.276 to work out the relationship between those two things. And 0:06:47.316 --> 0:06:50.756 we're in the first you know, Gutenberg is still alive 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:52.716 and kicking. You know, we are in the very earliest 0:06:52.716 --> 0:06:57.996 stages of a transformational revolution in human consciousness, like the 0:06:58.076 --> 0:07:02.836 one associated with the printing press. So, going back to shabbat, 0:07:03.796 --> 0:07:12.836 the reason for that spiritual technology of Shabbad is to 0:07:12.876 --> 0:07:18.396 create a frame around time so that we have an 0:07:18.396 --> 0:07:23.996 opportunity to reflect and to do the things that the 0:07:24.196 --> 0:07:31.676 species need so badly for its physical and spiritual health, 0:07:31.996 --> 0:07:36.756 which is to connect with other people, to be in 0:07:36.956 --> 0:07:48.116 community in our increasingly isolated, lonely and alienated maybe alienated. 0:07:48.436 --> 0:07:52.516 One part is to connect with other people. Another part 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:57.076 is to be in nature. We need to experience awe, 0:07:57.316 --> 0:08:00.476 which is super easy for me to say and is 0:08:00.516 --> 0:08:04.956 a challenge because what as you well know, what the 0:08:05.076 --> 0:08:09.276 algorithms do is whatever you look at it gets, it's 0:08:09.476 --> 0:08:14.596 darker and weirder and more extreme. To try to keep 0:08:14.676 --> 0:08:17.796 your eyeballs as long as possible for the purpose of 0:08:17.876 --> 0:08:23.676 the satisfying the advertisers. And our job as parents is 0:08:23.876 --> 0:08:30.796 one to model. So we moderate our use that young 0:08:31.036 --> 0:08:40.276 people see us celebrating the tiny and delightful and grand 0:08:40.356 --> 0:08:44.436 and glorious things in our lives, and then we have 0:08:44.876 --> 0:08:48.636 a ritual formula even for the day. This is one 0:08:48.676 --> 0:08:50.916 of the things that's happened in the pandemic. People talk 0:08:50.956 --> 0:08:53.836 about blurs day. They don't know what day of the week. 0:08:53.836 --> 0:08:57.796 It is that we don't have our old markers of time, 0:08:59.116 --> 0:09:05.836 and so the default way to soothe our emotions, to 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:10.836 entertain us, and to have company is to pick up 0:09:10.876 --> 0:09:14.036 the device. Wendy, let me ask you a kind of 0:09:14.036 --> 0:09:16.716 philosophical question that kind of flows from what you're describing, 0:09:17.596 --> 0:09:22.716 and it's a reflection of my own on trying to 0:09:22.716 --> 0:09:27.476 find the right, as it were, Sabbath balance. And to me, 0:09:28.356 --> 0:09:31.716 all of the things that you described about a Sabbath 0:09:31.796 --> 0:09:38.676 day are wonderful, valuable, worth preserving and continuing, but at 0:09:38.756 --> 0:09:42.516 least in some strands of religious tradition, whether Jewish or otherwise, 0:09:43.236 --> 0:09:47.076 they come with a certain rigidity attached. So you know, 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:51.236 in order to do the delineation, there are rules, and 0:09:51.476 --> 0:09:55.956 the phone in some sense reintroduces something like that set 0:09:55.996 --> 0:10:00.476 of rules. And of course all pedagogy involves rules. Well, 0:10:00.516 --> 0:10:02.156 you know, let's say one has a rule, a pretty 0:10:02.196 --> 0:10:05.636 straightforward rule, no phones at the table, right, good, Okay, 0:10:05.676 --> 0:10:07.756 I mean that's a good rule. Yeah, right, But it's 0:10:07.796 --> 0:10:09.916 supposed to be a bright line. It's not supposed to 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:12.636 be a no phone to the table unless you're in 0:10:12.636 --> 0:10:15.716 a lousy mood or unless you're expecting a call from 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:18.196 your friends, or right, it's supposed to be a bright 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:22.116 line rule. When you think about modeling for kids, what 0:10:22.156 --> 0:10:24.516 the right thing to do is, but also having rules, 0:10:24.556 --> 0:10:27.116 because you're a big believer that both that we should 0:10:27.116 --> 0:10:30.756 be reasonable and that we should have reasonable rules, how 0:10:30.756 --> 0:10:34.476 do you think about the rules part in association with 0:10:34.556 --> 0:10:47.876 tech that in our increasingly flexible yet rigid world, And 0:10:47.916 --> 0:10:50.356 this is one of the paradoxes of the way we're 0:10:50.476 --> 0:10:55.036 living now. For example, for a fourteen and a fifteen 0:10:55.116 --> 0:10:59.236 year old, there are a whole set of expectations that 0:11:00.036 --> 0:11:02.476 have been applied to them since they were very small, 0:11:02.516 --> 0:11:07.756 but they're growing as they move towards what we see 0:11:08.076 --> 0:11:14.716 as a scarcity zero some future where if they don't 0:11:15.636 --> 0:11:23.116 reach certain benchmarks of achievement, they're doomed. And part of 0:11:23.116 --> 0:11:27.796 that is adult's own existential anxiety about their future and 0:11:27.916 --> 0:11:31.396 the future of the planet. Lots of parents are older 0:11:31.436 --> 0:11:34.916 than their parents were when they had children, so we 0:11:35.076 --> 0:11:38.396 feel our own mortality a tiny little bit, and the 0:11:38.676 --> 0:11:49.836 children then become the the reassurance or the validation we 0:11:49.916 --> 0:11:52.876 have that we're doing a good job, and we look 0:11:52.876 --> 0:12:00.196 at them too closely but also not enough. So religion 0:12:01.236 --> 0:12:07.476 organized religion is really really effective for some families and 0:12:07.596 --> 0:12:13.836 works very well in other families. All the openness and 0:12:13.956 --> 0:12:18.316 diversity and flexibility and discovery of new ways of living 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:22.876 do not fit the template that has existed in the past. 0:12:23.516 --> 0:12:26.876 But I guess what I'm really focusing on is identifying 0:12:26.996 --> 0:12:31.116 and effectuating the appropriate part of that, and I think 0:12:31.156 --> 0:12:33.996 that they are facing the same exact challenge that I'm 0:12:34.036 --> 0:12:37.476 facing with respect to the power of the technology that 0:12:37.636 --> 0:12:40.796 is not only a phone but is also a wallet, 0:12:41.036 --> 0:12:43.996 and is also a music maker and also also a 0:12:44.036 --> 0:12:46.956 mode of communication, and also as the thermometer to tell 0:12:46.996 --> 0:12:49.996 you the temperature, you know, and also the alarm clock 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:54.116 and you know, etc, Etc. Etc. And I am trying 0:12:54.116 --> 0:13:00.236 to come up with a way to nudge them, let's say, 0:13:00.516 --> 0:13:03.316 towards the kind of use that I would think of 0:13:03.356 --> 0:13:06.956 as responsible that I am also trying to model. Right 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:11.076 even there, I think there is a disparity between their 0:13:11.196 --> 0:13:16.036 use and mine. And I think it's just largely generational, 0:13:16.716 --> 0:13:18.796 you know. I think they've just grown up with it 0:13:18.836 --> 0:13:21.476 to an even greater degree. But I do think it's 0:13:21.516 --> 0:13:23.836 about a moment where I say to them, hey, kids, 0:13:24.396 --> 0:13:27.836 you know, we don't use phones at the table. And 0:13:27.876 --> 0:13:31.756 you can see in them the physiological resistance to that 0:13:31.876 --> 0:13:37.156 preposterous idea. They're willing to obey, but I can see 0:13:37.156 --> 0:13:42.356 in them that it is let's call it obedience by 0:13:42.436 --> 0:13:46.596 force and not obedience of thinking, the way we aspire 0:13:46.596 --> 0:13:49.476 for our children to think. That's a pretty reasonable rule. 0:13:49.516 --> 0:13:50.916 I realize that I I don't always follow it, but that 0:13:50.996 --> 0:13:54.716 rule is pretty reasonable. Here's a little bit of the heartbreak. 0:13:54.836 --> 0:13:58.356 And when I was thinking about talking to you on 0:13:58.396 --> 0:14:05.236 this podcast, I've thought about the kids as instead of 0:14:05.316 --> 0:14:09.316 having them as our avatar, we have them as are 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:15.356 portal because most of these kids are inside kids now, 0:14:16.116 --> 0:14:21.076 and when even when you were growing up, I imagine 0:14:21.276 --> 0:14:23.916 that you could play outside when you were a little 0:14:23.996 --> 0:14:26.596 boy without your parents knowing where your work. Could you 0:14:26.676 --> 0:14:30.356 do that? Absolutely? And it is as it's not so 0:14:30.436 --> 0:14:32.316 much that my kids wouldn't be allowed, it's that they 0:14:32.356 --> 0:14:34.756 don't have the same instinct to go out and play 0:14:34.756 --> 0:14:37.436 in the street because there's nobody else in the street. No, 0:14:37.596 --> 0:14:40.356 I agree, that's part of the reason. What is the 0:14:40.396 --> 0:14:45.116 street so they need? There's a wonderful word in Tom 0:14:45.156 --> 0:14:50.196 Sawyer when Twain talks about Tom at the well and 0:14:50.276 --> 0:14:55.276 he Tom says the kids were skylarking, just hanging out 0:14:55.316 --> 0:14:59.396 at the well, teasing each other, all different ages, different races. 0:14:59.476 --> 0:15:05.076 He talks about and when do these kids get to 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:11.476 skylark except online? Which is part of the paradox in 0:15:11.556 --> 0:15:18.036 some ways, they are very sophisticated but emotionally young, and 0:15:18.116 --> 0:15:23.476 they don't have a lot of street smarts or street confidence. 0:15:24.276 --> 0:15:29.196 So yes, for sure, it is a much more enjoyable 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:34.356 dinner if nobody is looking at or responding to their phone. 0:15:35.116 --> 0:15:40.356 But what I want, as much as that rule, is 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:46.556 for the families to get outside and to have the 0:15:46.636 --> 0:15:52.356 opportunity to have their mirror neurons vibrate with I love 0:15:52.396 --> 0:15:58.236 this term consequential strangers. My biggest concern about this generation 0:15:58.556 --> 0:16:01.836 is not whether they're going to master coding or Mandarin, 0:16:01.996 --> 0:16:07.436 those two things they probably won't need shortly, but to 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:11.916 be able to talk to people they don't already know, 0:16:12.036 --> 0:16:17.916 to have conversations with adults, to enjoy the company and 0:16:18.116 --> 0:16:24.876 fellowship and sisterhood of new people. Because their parents are distracted, 0:16:25.116 --> 0:16:30.236 the kids are distracted, and the allure. There's a wonderful 0:16:30.516 --> 0:16:33.356 new book I believe the author is Michael Moss, and 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:39.436 it's called Hooked. It's about the addictiveness of fast food, 0:16:40.036 --> 0:16:44.436 and it's about so much how our brains operate and 0:16:44.516 --> 0:16:48.636 what appeals to what produces dopamine, and how it works. 0:16:49.316 --> 0:16:53.996 So we have these dopamine generators available at all times 0:16:53.996 --> 0:16:58.156 that are vital for school work, for communication, even for 0:16:58.236 --> 0:17:02.436 little kids communicating with their grandma and grandpa. And at 0:17:02.476 --> 0:17:07.356 the same time we are missing out on so much. 0:17:07.916 --> 0:17:10.356 I have to say, I'm less worried. Then your description 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:13.836 is about the kid's ability to meet people, because I 0:17:13.836 --> 0:17:16.116 actually think partly because of social media, they have a 0:17:16.196 --> 0:17:18.836 much broader acquaintance ship than I did at their age. 0:17:18.876 --> 0:17:21.236 I mean, my friends were limited really to the kids 0:17:21.276 --> 0:17:23.276 I could see in person, either in school or in 0:17:23.276 --> 0:17:26.276 the neighborhood. And they have friends who don't live in 0:17:26.276 --> 0:17:29.076 the neighborhood and they don't go to school with And 0:17:29.236 --> 0:17:32.716 those online friendships can also blossom into real, real friendships 0:17:32.716 --> 0:17:36.796 and real you know, irl friendships and you know, in relationships. 0:17:36.836 --> 0:17:39.836 So I'm actually not so worried about about that aspect 0:17:39.836 --> 0:17:42.476 of it. I do agree there's been a fundamental social 0:17:42.556 --> 0:17:45.996 change with respect to the street and how the street functioned, 0:17:46.996 --> 0:17:48.396 you know, in my childhood, and I live only a 0:17:48.396 --> 0:17:50.756 mile from where I grew up, but I can see 0:17:50.756 --> 0:17:53.676 a total transformation and how the streets are were a 0:17:53.716 --> 0:17:56.196 place of running around impacts and just are not anymore. 0:17:59.516 --> 0:18:06.716 There's wonderful work by Ellen Sandsetter, who is who studies 0:18:07.916 --> 0:18:12.556 phobias in children. She wrote an article called the Antiphobic 0:18:12.596 --> 0:18:18.236 Effects of Thrilling Experience, and she says that unless kids 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:23.596 are exposed to danger, they will be more fearful, and 0:18:23.716 --> 0:18:26.596 she names the kinds of danger she says they have 0:18:26.716 --> 0:18:28.996 to be. Take a zip line. Yes, that sort of thing, 0:18:29.476 --> 0:18:32.796 much worse than a zip line, so great heights where 0:18:32.796 --> 0:18:40.836 they could fall near fire, dangerous tools, aggression, social and 0:18:40.916 --> 0:18:47.876 physical aggression, traveling at great speed, and wayfinding. One of 0:18:47.916 --> 0:18:51.476 the problems with technology is that's the main source of 0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:56.276 danger for our children. They don't get to learn how 0:18:56.316 --> 0:19:01.716 to titrate danger before they go off to college on 0:19:01.756 --> 0:19:08.676 their own that is not screen based danger. So I 0:19:09.476 --> 0:19:15.196 and and wayfinding. Wayfinding can seem obsolete in an era 0:19:15.476 --> 0:19:20.196 of Google Maps. No, that's really true, really true, And 0:19:20.596 --> 0:19:27.436 so these experiences need to be constructed, and it requires 0:19:27.436 --> 0:19:30.116 a lot of creativity on parents' parts. So what they 0:19:30.156 --> 0:19:34.436 do instead is say, okay, two hours of screen time 0:19:34.556 --> 0:19:39.196 after all your homework is done. And we are then 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:51.516 a cross between security guards, concierge services and keeping track 0:19:51.676 --> 0:19:56.516 from moment to moment of what the children are doing 0:19:56.636 --> 0:20:01.396 when we really want them to be able to monitor 0:20:01.756 --> 0:20:06.236 and make good judgments about that. Yeah, I mean, what 0:20:06.316 --> 0:20:08.436 I hear you saying is that that kind of a 0:20:08.516 --> 0:20:11.716 rule is too rigid, and that this goes back to 0:20:11.716 --> 0:20:15.156 our conversation about rigidity, that it puts the parent in 0:20:15.196 --> 0:20:17.756 the position of enforcing a rigid rule, It puts the 0:20:17.836 --> 0:20:20.316 kid in the position not of being autonomous and making 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:22.916 judgments and learning to make mistakes and fix them, but 0:20:23.156 --> 0:20:25.916 simply in the position of following yet another rule in 0:20:25.956 --> 0:20:31.276 a world that's already far too full of rules and restrictions, rules, 0:20:30.276 --> 0:20:34.796 rest grades and ranking. Yeah, so what I mean, tell 0:20:34.836 --> 0:20:36.476 me if I'm if I'm hearing you correctly, I mean, 0:20:36.476 --> 0:20:39.076 what I hear you saying is some version of Noah, 0:20:39.156 --> 0:20:43.396 just relax, you know, I mean, this is fine. Our 0:20:43.436 --> 0:20:45.436 society as a whole may have gone down a rabbit 0:20:45.476 --> 0:20:50.436 hole of technological addiction, and kids live in the society too, 0:20:50.796 --> 0:20:53.116 but will self correct at some point as a society, 0:20:53.156 --> 0:20:55.916 and they'll self correct when everybody else self corrects. And 0:20:55.996 --> 0:20:58.436 the kind of picture of erosion that films like The 0:20:58.476 --> 0:21:03.556 Social Dilemma do suggest is grossly exaggerated with respect to 0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:07.996 the great majority of people who can come to terms 0:21:07.996 --> 0:21:10.876 with new technologies. And if that's the message, I'm jumping 0:21:10.916 --> 0:21:13.516 up and down with joy, because it, you know, it's 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:17.676 sort of it suggests that we don't have to be 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:21.556 in a panic, even in a situation like the post 0:21:21.556 --> 0:21:25.916 pandemic world where we've just as a society locked everything down, 0:21:26.316 --> 0:21:31.836 imposed rules, imposed rigidity, been very fear based, possibly rationally 0:21:31.916 --> 0:21:35.156 fear based, but nevertheless fear based. Now we're going to 0:21:35.316 --> 0:21:38.476 crawl out from under it. We have had to do 0:21:38.516 --> 0:21:41.716 this for over a year in order to save our lives. 0:21:42.276 --> 0:21:48.596 The decision fatigue we have about tiny nuanced angles of things. 0:21:48.636 --> 0:21:52.036 And originally we thought the virus could travel on surfaces, 0:21:52.076 --> 0:21:54.796 and then we discovered it was aerosol. And now we're 0:21:54.796 --> 0:21:56.916 supposed to be allowed to take off our masks. But 0:21:57.036 --> 0:22:01.756 should we being paranoid or getting it right or wrong? 0:22:01.956 --> 0:22:05.836 Which is what we feel so often as parents. We 0:22:05.916 --> 0:22:07.956 want to do it right, and then people like me 0:22:08.116 --> 0:22:10.396 right parenting, but tell you how to do it and 0:22:10.436 --> 0:22:13.196 react like experts, and then you read them and think, oh, 0:22:13.236 --> 0:22:15.236 should I do what she said? Not what she said? 0:22:15.716 --> 0:22:21.836 And there's so much thinking going on that what gets 0:22:21.996 --> 0:22:27.356 lost are the full range of feelings. And the other 0:22:27.396 --> 0:22:32.876 piece is laughter. And the part of what happens online 0:22:33.356 --> 0:22:40.476 is just a glory in snark and in dismissing other 0:22:40.556 --> 0:22:46.756 people and of feeling superior. But there is also wit 0:22:47.156 --> 0:22:53.876 and whimsy and good silliness to be found online and 0:22:53.956 --> 0:22:57.076 to be found in real life. So if you want 0:22:57.116 --> 0:23:00.796 to worry about your family, one thing you can say 0:23:01.116 --> 0:23:03.876 is not two hours of tag no more than that, 0:23:03.956 --> 0:23:06.236 and get outside and get some fresh air. And why 0:23:06.236 --> 0:23:09.556 are you eating that? And why aren't you exercising. We're 0:23:09.916 --> 0:23:14.196 so close to the kids that anything you're close to 0:23:14.276 --> 0:23:18.556 you see all the flaws, and it's hard to step 0:23:18.636 --> 0:23:23.356 back and to zoom out and have the wide view. 0:23:23.476 --> 0:23:25.476 So if you want to worry about things, it may 0:23:25.596 --> 0:23:30.156 be that you're not laughing en up with your children 0:23:30.276 --> 0:23:34.716 and laughing about them in private with your partner. We'll 0:23:34.716 --> 0:23:46.636 be back in a moment. It may be too soon 0:23:46.756 --> 0:23:49.956 still to have this conversation fully, but let me just 0:23:50.236 --> 0:23:53.956 ask you in a preliminary way, do you think that 0:23:54.396 --> 0:24:00.756 we went too far in the pathologizing direction in the 0:24:00.836 --> 0:24:05.596 course of the last year and change in trying to, 0:24:06.036 --> 0:24:09.876 as you said, keep ourselves alive. I mean, we were 0:24:10.436 --> 0:24:13.836 getting guidance, that guidance was shifting over time, but there 0:24:13.876 --> 0:24:18.396 was inevitably a pathologizing component there. I mean, after all, 0:24:18.396 --> 0:24:20.916 we were surrounded by a pathogen, or we imagined ourselves 0:24:20.956 --> 0:24:24.596 to be surrounded by a pathogen, and lots of people 0:24:24.636 --> 0:24:26.676 got it and got sick from it, and some died 0:24:26.756 --> 0:24:30.316 from it. When you look at that retrospectively, do you 0:24:30.356 --> 0:24:33.316 think we'll look back and say we got it right, 0:24:33.796 --> 0:24:37.076 or we got it roughly right, or we took it 0:24:37.116 --> 0:24:40.476 too far in terms of the psychological costs for us 0:24:40.476 --> 0:24:44.396 as human beings who are not really designed to live 0:24:44.676 --> 0:24:51.996 under consistent fear for that period of time. I am 0:24:52.036 --> 0:24:56.156 confident that we will look back and say we couldn't 0:24:56.196 --> 0:25:01.076 have done it differently because we didn't know. The part 0:25:01.156 --> 0:25:05.876 that concerns me right now is the fear that the 0:25:06.076 --> 0:25:11.156 children have had serious learning loss, they have lost their 0:25:11.276 --> 0:25:16.836 social skills, that we will not bounce back and recover 0:25:17.596 --> 0:25:23.516 from what was a tremendously interesting time that every single 0:25:23.556 --> 0:25:25.956 one of us. We have a big advantage now we 0:25:26.116 --> 0:25:28.356 live through this and we get to talk about this 0:25:28.516 --> 0:25:32.036 till we're boring people to death about this. I think 0:25:32.036 --> 0:25:35.996 we're getting there amazing time in history. But I'm talking 0:25:35.996 --> 0:25:39.956 about if the planet does continue and there are future 0:25:39.996 --> 0:25:46.076 generations of children, they will be so interested. So this 0:25:46.156 --> 0:25:48.636 is the pandemic as a giant skinned knee that will 0:25:48.756 --> 0:25:51.836 resiliently bounce back from Yeah, a skinned and you get 0:25:51.836 --> 0:25:55.476 a skinned by doing adventurous things that we don't do. 0:25:55.556 --> 0:25:58.756 Not wish this on anyone and all the extreme losses, 0:25:58.796 --> 0:26:01.396 but The other thing it did is it came in 0:26:01.516 --> 0:26:07.156 parallel with the reckoning about all kinds of issues about 0:26:07.236 --> 0:26:10.556 social justice, about the eco, to me, about how we've 0:26:10.796 --> 0:26:17.156 organized children's lives and our expectations for children, the national 0:26:17.436 --> 0:26:22.116 everybody went through this, not equally, but we went through this, 0:26:22.796 --> 0:26:27.956 and it is a life experience that we now can 0:26:28.276 --> 0:26:32.156 use to look back at the way we were living 0:26:32.316 --> 0:26:36.836 and evaluate how much we want to reinstate and how 0:26:36.916 --> 0:26:40.276 much we want to change. So, I don't know if 0:26:40.276 --> 0:26:45.676 you've felt it personally in your family, some of these 0:26:45.956 --> 0:26:51.556 sparkling moments or insights you had about the pace of life, 0:26:52.116 --> 0:26:57.516 the expectations of what one does in a day, what 0:26:57.716 --> 0:27:03.596 brings comfort and delight, and what brings a necessary overthinking 0:27:03.716 --> 0:27:08.676 and anxiety. But it really has been an opportunity, yes, 0:27:08.756 --> 0:27:13.636 to quiver in terror, but at the same time to 0:27:13.996 --> 0:27:19.556 gain new insight and perspective on what children need and 0:27:19.676 --> 0:27:22.796 what parents are responsible for giving them and what we 0:27:22.836 --> 0:27:28.756 are not responsible for doing, but they are responsible for themselves. Wendy, 0:27:28.796 --> 0:27:30.996 in your practice, you're seeing lots of people who are 0:27:31.196 --> 0:27:34.036 all coming out of COVID right now, and I'm wondering 0:27:34.076 --> 0:27:38.876 if you have any big picture advice that might apply 0:27:38.996 --> 0:27:41.556 to lots of us as we try to figure out 0:27:41.756 --> 0:27:46.116 how to navigate the next stages. One thing that's been 0:27:46.236 --> 0:27:52.036 very helpful to parents is to see who their child is. 0:27:53.836 --> 0:27:57.836 So there's an impulse to be back to in person 0:27:57.916 --> 0:28:01.036 school where the kids have a choice, to be back 0:28:01.156 --> 0:28:06.316 to baseball and the practices and the games, but maybe 0:28:06.396 --> 0:28:10.916 not to parties or socializing. So we're sort of eager 0:28:11.036 --> 0:28:16.716 to have them back to all the transcript worthy activities 0:28:16.876 --> 0:28:20.116 or what feels wholesome and healthy to parents and is, 0:28:21.116 --> 0:28:27.956 but very fearful about what can feel maybe a little 0:28:27.956 --> 0:28:32.236 bit more frivolous or even more risky. And that gets 0:28:32.276 --> 0:28:37.916 back to the moderation, celebration and sanctification that for each 0:28:37.996 --> 0:28:41.196 child it's going to be different. And some are just 0:28:41.316 --> 0:28:43.956 like when they go off to preschool. Some are slow, 0:28:43.996 --> 0:28:48.516 too warm, and others dive right in. They go into preschool. 0:28:48.596 --> 0:28:51.556 They don't even look back at mom or dad who's there. 0:28:51.836 --> 0:28:56.596 They just dash in. So every single family will have 0:28:56.636 --> 0:29:01.236 different standards and each child will have different standards dirts, 0:29:01.236 --> 0:29:03.836 and the piece of guidance that I give parents is 0:29:04.596 --> 0:29:08.956 don't listen too much to the barking chain or the 0:29:09.276 --> 0:29:13.636 loud mouths or the know it alls, and to really 0:29:13.876 --> 0:29:19.436 think about your child's pace of reentry, what feels safe 0:29:19.476 --> 0:29:23.036 to your family and appropriate, and that may be different 0:29:23.036 --> 0:29:27.276 than your extended family. And to have the courage and 0:29:27.396 --> 0:29:31.436 confidence to be able to say, and this is a 0:29:31.476 --> 0:29:34.836 wonderful thing to say to teenagers all the time. I 0:29:34.916 --> 0:29:36.636 know you don't see it the way I see it, 0:29:36.676 --> 0:29:39.956 but that's how I am, or that's where I stand, 0:29:40.316 --> 0:29:45.196