1
00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,996
Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

2
00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:27,396
Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

3
00:00:28,276 --> 00:00:31,916
Speaker 1: This week, I'm focusing on an aspect of our post

4
00:00:31,956 --> 00:00:37,036
Speaker 1: pandemic world that is increasingly being discussed among parents, but

5
00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:40,276
Speaker 1: I haven't yet really heard discussed in the media, and

6
00:00:40,316 --> 00:00:43,036
Speaker 1: it hits close to home for me. And that is

7
00:00:43,476 --> 00:00:46,156
Speaker 1: what to do about the fact that most of us,

8
00:00:46,356 --> 00:00:49,436
Speaker 1: as caring parents, try to limit our kids screen time

9
00:00:49,476 --> 00:00:53,276
Speaker 1: before COVID and then utterly gave up on that once

10
00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:58,636
Speaker 1: school life and pretty much everything else went virtual. Today's

11
00:00:58,636 --> 00:01:01,356
Speaker 1: teenagers spend and estimated six and a half hours a

12
00:01:01,476 --> 00:01:04,276
Speaker 1: day on their devices, and that I think is a

13
00:01:04,356 --> 00:01:07,996
Speaker 1: number that is not counting the time they spend going

14
00:01:08,036 --> 00:01:11,716
Speaker 1: to school on their licence. Here to help us think

15
00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:15,556
Speaker 1: about how to approach this challenge, if it even is

16
00:01:15,596 --> 00:01:19,236
Speaker 1: a challenge, is psychologist and New York Times best selling

17
00:01:19,316 --> 00:01:24,716
Speaker 1: author Wendy Mogul. Wendy has written several famous books about parenting,

18
00:01:25,036 --> 00:01:28,756
Speaker 1: including The Blessing of a Skinned Knee and Voice Lessons

19
00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:33,556
Speaker 1: for Parents. She's the host of a podcast, Nurture Versus Nurture,

20
00:01:33,996 --> 00:01:37,116
Speaker 1: and she's here with me to talk about parenting in

21
00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:42,996
Speaker 1: a distinctively challenging time. Wendy, it's such a huge pleasure

22
00:01:43,036 --> 00:01:45,516
Speaker 1: to have you on the podcast. I've admired your work

23
00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:49,556
Speaker 1: tremendously and it's also affected my parenting. I wanted to

24
00:01:49,556 --> 00:01:53,196
Speaker 1: ask you about a very concrete problem that I am

25
00:01:53,196 --> 00:01:55,676
Speaker 1: confronting now, and I have the feeling I must be

26
00:01:55,716 --> 00:01:58,956
Speaker 1: one of millions confronting it, like a lot of parents.

27
00:01:59,036 --> 00:02:02,876
Speaker 1: I tried very hard fighting the trend to be responsible

28
00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:05,916
Speaker 1: about my kids in their use of tech and particularly phones,

29
00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:12,436
Speaker 1: and then came COVID and experts, psychologists like you, other

30
00:02:12,676 --> 00:02:17,796
Speaker 1: experts in childhood development basically said, you know, parents, you

31
00:02:17,836 --> 00:02:20,756
Speaker 1: can sort of give up on this now because your kids'

32
00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:24,036
Speaker 1: lives are now completely online. They're stuck at home. First

33
00:02:24,036 --> 00:02:27,356
Speaker 1: it was lockdown, then it was school remotely. They need

34
00:02:27,396 --> 00:02:30,796
Speaker 1: to have social interaction, and so their way they're getting

35
00:02:30,796 --> 00:02:35,236
Speaker 1: at right now is through their phones. So I gave up.

36
00:02:36,836 --> 00:02:41,516
Speaker 1: Now as we begin to emerge into the post COVID world,

37
00:02:41,636 --> 00:02:44,516
Speaker 1: knock on wood, it would be nice to try to

38
00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:48,316
Speaker 1: return to something like a reasonable model with respect to tech,

39
00:02:49,556 --> 00:02:53,276
Speaker 1: and yet I do not see the roadback. I don't

40
00:02:53,316 --> 00:02:58,116
Speaker 1: see the roadback because the depth of let's call it,

41
00:02:58,156 --> 00:03:01,876
Speaker 1: to use a polite term, connection to the devices is

42
00:03:01,916 --> 00:03:04,756
Speaker 1: now so profound. Then, by the way, not only for

43
00:03:04,796 --> 00:03:06,116
Speaker 1: the kids, I think this is true of a lot

44
00:03:06,116 --> 00:03:08,636
Speaker 1: of adults as well. So I want to start by

45
00:03:08,636 --> 00:03:11,876
Speaker 1: asking you, did we get it wrong in the first place?

46
00:03:12,556 --> 00:03:17,676
Speaker 1: And what can we do now? What I see in

47
00:03:17,916 --> 00:03:20,076
Speaker 1: so many of the parents that I've been working with

48
00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:28,036
Speaker 1: through this very very unusual period of time is tremendous

49
00:03:28,156 --> 00:03:33,716
Speaker 1: ambivalence and double standards. So we don't want the kids

50
00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:38,556
Speaker 1: on their devices too much, and yet for us we

51
00:03:38,596 --> 00:03:42,996
Speaker 1: can always say it's work. So for example, you and

52
00:03:43,036 --> 00:03:45,596
Speaker 1: I are talking to each other right now, and we're

53
00:03:45,636 --> 00:03:48,556
Speaker 1: on opposite side of the country. We are looking at

54
00:03:48,596 --> 00:03:53,196
Speaker 1: each other. We're making a podcast. It's so easy to

55
00:03:53,276 --> 00:04:02,076
Speaker 1: justify on lots of levels as a worthy enterprise. And yeah, right,

56
00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:06,956
Speaker 1: we'll see, we hope. So exactly what I see parents

57
00:04:07,036 --> 00:04:10,756
Speaker 1: doing a lot. Two things I see are one is

58
00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:19,116
Speaker 1: not modeling what they are hoping to see in their children,

59
00:04:19,916 --> 00:04:25,876
Speaker 1: and the other is a kind of disgruntled ambivalence. So

60
00:04:26,236 --> 00:04:32,836
Speaker 1: the parents say they are scornful and disparaging and sometimes

61
00:04:33,076 --> 00:04:38,836
Speaker 1: naively mocking of the children's And I have air quotes

62
00:04:38,956 --> 00:04:44,756
Speaker 1: on for our listeners right now addiction and then they say, okay,

63
00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:49,996
Speaker 1: go ahead, they kind of give up with some disdain.

64
00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:55,276
Speaker 1: And so my model for parents and almost everything right

65
00:04:55,276 --> 00:05:01,716
Speaker 1: now is to treat your child as your spirit guide.

66
00:05:03,116 --> 00:05:09,036
Speaker 1: Your teenagers fourteen and fifteen years old, they know fantastic

67
00:05:09,276 --> 00:05:12,796
Speaker 1: things that go on on the web that you don't

68
00:05:12,836 --> 00:05:17,236
Speaker 1: know anything about. That is for sure. So it's a

69
00:05:17,316 --> 00:05:25,676
Speaker 1: combination of incredibly alarming because technology is changing so rapidly

70
00:05:26,556 --> 00:05:30,516
Speaker 1: and it feels hard for parents to keep up. And

71
00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:36,596
Speaker 1: so then we take this position that is a cross

72
00:05:36,756 --> 00:05:41,956
Speaker 1: between ludite and addicted ourselves, and so the kids just

73
00:05:42,156 --> 00:05:45,916
Speaker 1: write us off, and rightly, I would say yes. And

74
00:05:46,396 --> 00:05:50,876
Speaker 1: so the first piece is to be enchanted with their enchantment.

75
00:05:51,956 --> 00:05:55,196
Speaker 1: So have your children and I know the answer to

76
00:05:55,276 --> 00:05:57,756
Speaker 1: this already, but I want to hear it. Have they

77
00:05:58,076 --> 00:06:02,156
Speaker 1: introduced you to things you would never have known about

78
00:06:02,276 --> 00:06:06,596
Speaker 1: that you were delighted to learn? For sure, There's no

79
00:06:06,716 --> 00:06:10,276
Speaker 1: question about it. And also no question in my mind

80
00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:14,476
Speaker 1: that for all of its downsides, social media broadly speaking,

81
00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:17,116
Speaker 1: has a lot of upsides. It's created new forms of

82
00:06:17,196 --> 00:06:22,396
Speaker 1: human connection and interaction, and those things are wonderful. Some

83
00:06:22,436 --> 00:06:24,836
Speaker 1: of them are wonderful. I guess I think of it

84
00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:27,836
Speaker 1: though a lot like other new technologies they say they

85
00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:30,436
Speaker 1: printing press in its day, you know, the printing press

86
00:06:30,436 --> 00:06:33,516
Speaker 1: brought a lot of extraordinary possibility of the sharing and

87
00:06:33,516 --> 00:06:36,636
Speaker 1: spread of information, and it also brought the wars of

88
00:06:36,676 --> 00:06:44,196
Speaker 1: religion and profound polarization, violence, hate, and it took centuries

89
00:06:44,596 --> 00:06:47,276
Speaker 1: to work out the relationship between those two things. And

90
00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:50,756
Speaker 1: we're in the first you know, Gutenberg is still alive

91
00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:52,716
Speaker 1: and kicking. You know, we are in the very earliest

92
00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:57,996
Speaker 1: stages of a transformational revolution in human consciousness, like the

93
00:06:58,076 --> 00:07:02,836
Speaker 1: one associated with the printing press. So, going back to shabbat,

94
00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:12,836
Speaker 1: the reason for that spiritual technology of Shabbad is to

95
00:07:12,876 --> 00:07:18,396
Speaker 1: create a frame around time so that we have an

96
00:07:18,396 --> 00:07:23,996
Speaker 1: opportunity to reflect and to do the things that the

97
00:07:24,196 --> 00:07:31,676
Speaker 1: species need so badly for its physical and spiritual health,

98
00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:36,756
Speaker 1: which is to connect with other people, to be in

99
00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:48,116
Speaker 1: community in our increasingly isolated, lonely and alienated maybe alienated.

100
00:07:48,436 --> 00:07:52,516
Speaker 1: One part is to connect with other people. Another part

101
00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:57,076
Speaker 1: is to be in nature. We need to experience awe,

102
00:07:57,316 --> 00:08:00,476
Speaker 1: which is super easy for me to say and is

103
00:08:00,516 --> 00:08:04,956
Speaker 1: a challenge because what as you well know, what the

104
00:08:05,076 --> 00:08:09,276
Speaker 1: algorithms do is whatever you look at it gets, it's

105
00:08:09,476 --> 00:08:14,596
Speaker 1: darker and weirder and more extreme. To try to keep

106
00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:17,796
Speaker 1: your eyeballs as long as possible for the purpose of

107
00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:23,676
Speaker 1: the satisfying the advertisers. And our job as parents is

108
00:08:23,876 --> 00:08:30,796
Speaker 1: one to model. So we moderate our use that young

109
00:08:31,036 --> 00:08:40,276
Speaker 1: people see us celebrating the tiny and delightful and grand

110
00:08:40,356 --> 00:08:44,436
Speaker 1: and glorious things in our lives, and then we have

111
00:08:44,876 --> 00:08:48,636
Speaker 1: a ritual formula even for the day. This is one

112
00:08:48,676 --> 00:08:50,916
Speaker 1: of the things that's happened in the pandemic. People talk

113
00:08:50,956 --> 00:08:53,836
Speaker 1: about blurs day. They don't know what day of the week.

114
00:08:53,836 --> 00:08:57,796
Speaker 1: It is that we don't have our old markers of time,

115
00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:05,836
Speaker 1: and so the default way to soothe our emotions, to

116
00:09:05,996 --> 00:09:10,836
Speaker 1: entertain us, and to have company is to pick up

117
00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:14,036
Speaker 1: the device. Wendy, let me ask you a kind of

118
00:09:14,036 --> 00:09:16,716
Speaker 1: philosophical question that kind of flows from what you're describing,

119
00:09:17,596 --> 00:09:22,716
Speaker 1: and it's a reflection of my own on trying to

120
00:09:22,716 --> 00:09:27,476
Speaker 1: find the right, as it were, Sabbath balance. And to me,

121
00:09:28,356 --> 00:09:31,716
Speaker 1: all of the things that you described about a Sabbath

122
00:09:31,796 --> 00:09:38,676
Speaker 1: day are wonderful, valuable, worth preserving and continuing, but at

123
00:09:38,756 --> 00:09:42,516
Speaker 1: least in some strands of religious tradition, whether Jewish or otherwise,

124
00:09:43,236 --> 00:09:47,076
Speaker 1: they come with a certain rigidity attached. So you know,

125
00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:51,236
Speaker 1: in order to do the delineation, there are rules, and

126
00:09:51,476 --> 00:09:55,956
Speaker 1: the phone in some sense reintroduces something like that set

127
00:09:55,996 --> 00:10:00,476
Speaker 1: of rules. And of course all pedagogy involves rules. Well,

128
00:10:00,516 --> 00:10:02,156
Speaker 1: you know, let's say one has a rule, a pretty

129
00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:05,636
Speaker 1: straightforward rule, no phones at the table, right, good, Okay,

130
00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:07,756
Speaker 1: I mean that's a good rule. Yeah, right, But it's

131
00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:09,916
Speaker 1: supposed to be a bright line. It's not supposed to

132
00:10:09,956 --> 00:10:12,636
Speaker 1: be a no phone to the table unless you're in

133
00:10:12,636 --> 00:10:15,716
Speaker 1: a lousy mood or unless you're expecting a call from

134
00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:18,196
Speaker 1: your friends, or right, it's supposed to be a bright

135
00:10:18,236 --> 00:10:22,116
Speaker 1: line rule. When you think about modeling for kids, what

136
00:10:22,156 --> 00:10:24,516
Speaker 1: the right thing to do is, but also having rules,

137
00:10:24,556 --> 00:10:27,116
Speaker 1: because you're a big believer that both that we should

138
00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:30,756
Speaker 1: be reasonable and that we should have reasonable rules, how

139
00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:34,476
Speaker 1: do you think about the rules part in association with

140
00:10:34,556 --> 00:10:47,876
Speaker 1: tech that in our increasingly flexible yet rigid world, And

141
00:10:47,916 --> 00:10:50,356
Speaker 1: this is one of the paradoxes of the way we're

142
00:10:50,476 --> 00:10:55,036
Speaker 1: living now. For example, for a fourteen and a fifteen

143
00:10:55,116 --> 00:10:59,236
Speaker 1: year old, there are a whole set of expectations that

144
00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:02,476
Speaker 1: have been applied to them since they were very small,

145
00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:07,756
Speaker 1: but they're growing as they move towards what we see

146
00:11:08,076 --> 00:11:14,716
Speaker 1: as a scarcity zero some future where if they don't

147
00:11:15,636 --> 00:11:23,116
Speaker 1: reach certain benchmarks of achievement, they're doomed. And part of

148
00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:27,796
Speaker 1: that is adult's own existential anxiety about their future and

149
00:11:27,916 --> 00:11:31,396
Speaker 1: the future of the planet. Lots of parents are older

150
00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:34,916
Speaker 1: than their parents were when they had children, so we

151
00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:38,396
Speaker 1: feel our own mortality a tiny little bit, and the

152
00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:49,836
Speaker 1: children then become the the reassurance or the validation we

153
00:11:49,916 --> 00:11:52,876
Speaker 1: have that we're doing a good job, and we look

154
00:11:52,876 --> 00:12:00,196
Speaker 1: at them too closely but also not enough. So religion

155
00:12:01,236 --> 00:12:07,476
Speaker 1: organized religion is really really effective for some families and

156
00:12:07,596 --> 00:12:13,836
Speaker 1: works very well in other families. All the openness and

157
00:12:13,956 --> 00:12:18,316
Speaker 1: diversity and flexibility and discovery of new ways of living

158
00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:22,876
Speaker 1: do not fit the template that has existed in the past.

159
00:12:23,516 --> 00:12:26,876
Speaker 1: But I guess what I'm really focusing on is identifying

160
00:12:26,996 --> 00:12:31,116
Speaker 1: and effectuating the appropriate part of that, and I think

161
00:12:31,156 --> 00:12:33,996
Speaker 1: that they are facing the same exact challenge that I'm

162
00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:37,476
Speaker 1: facing with respect to the power of the technology that

163
00:12:37,636 --> 00:12:40,796
Speaker 1: is not only a phone but is also a wallet,

164
00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:43,996
Speaker 1: and is also a music maker and also also a

165
00:12:44,036 --> 00:12:46,956
Speaker 1: mode of communication, and also as the thermometer to tell

166
00:12:46,996 --> 00:12:49,996
Speaker 1: you the temperature, you know, and also the alarm clock

167
00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:54,116
Speaker 1: and you know, etc, Etc. Etc. And I am trying

168
00:12:54,116 --> 00:13:00,236
Speaker 1: to come up with a way to nudge them, let's say,

169
00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:03,316
Speaker 1: towards the kind of use that I would think of

170
00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:06,956
Speaker 1: as responsible that I am also trying to model. Right

171
00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:11,076
Speaker 1: even there, I think there is a disparity between their

172
00:13:11,196 --> 00:13:16,036
Speaker 1: use and mine. And I think it's just largely generational,

173
00:13:16,716 --> 00:13:18,796
Speaker 1: you know. I think they've just grown up with it

174
00:13:18,836 --> 00:13:21,476
Speaker 1: to an even greater degree. But I do think it's

175
00:13:21,516 --> 00:13:23,836
Speaker 1: about a moment where I say to them, hey, kids,

176
00:13:24,396 --> 00:13:27,836
Speaker 1: you know, we don't use phones at the table. And

177
00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:31,756
Speaker 1: you can see in them the physiological resistance to that

178
00:13:31,876 --> 00:13:37,156
Speaker 1: preposterous idea. They're willing to obey, but I can see

179
00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:42,356
Speaker 1: in them that it is let's call it obedience by

180
00:13:42,436 --> 00:13:46,596
Speaker 1: force and not obedience of thinking, the way we aspire

181
00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:49,476
Speaker 1: for our children to think. That's a pretty reasonable rule.

182
00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:50,916
Speaker 1: I realize that I I don't always follow it, but that

183
00:13:50,996 --> 00:13:54,716
Speaker 1: rule is pretty reasonable. Here's a little bit of the heartbreak.

184
00:13:54,836 --> 00:13:58,356
Speaker 1: And when I was thinking about talking to you on

185
00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:05,236
Speaker 1: this podcast, I've thought about the kids as instead of

186
00:14:05,316 --> 00:14:09,316
Speaker 1: having them as our avatar, we have them as are

187
00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:15,356
Speaker 1: portal because most of these kids are inside kids now,

188
00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:21,076
Speaker 1: and when even when you were growing up, I imagine

189
00:14:21,276 --> 00:14:23,916
Speaker 1: that you could play outside when you were a little

190
00:14:23,996 --> 00:14:26,596
Speaker 1: boy without your parents knowing where your work. Could you

191
00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:30,356
Speaker 1: do that? Absolutely? And it is as it's not so

192
00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:32,316
Speaker 1: much that my kids wouldn't be allowed, it's that they

193
00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:34,756
Speaker 1: don't have the same instinct to go out and play

194
00:14:34,756 --> 00:14:37,436
Speaker 1: in the street because there's nobody else in the street. No,

195
00:14:37,596 --> 00:14:40,356
Speaker 1: I agree, that's part of the reason. What is the

196
00:14:40,396 --> 00:14:45,116
Speaker 1: street so they need? There's a wonderful word in Tom

197
00:14:45,156 --> 00:14:50,196
Speaker 1: Sawyer when Twain talks about Tom at the well and

198
00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:55,276
Speaker 1: he Tom says the kids were skylarking, just hanging out

199
00:14:55,316 --> 00:14:59,396
Speaker 1: at the well, teasing each other, all different ages, different races.

200
00:14:59,476 --> 00:15:05,076
Speaker 1: He talks about and when do these kids get to

201
00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:11,476
Speaker 1: skylark except online? Which is part of the paradox in

202
00:15:11,556 --> 00:15:18,036
Speaker 1: some ways, they are very sophisticated but emotionally young, and

203
00:15:18,116 --> 00:15:23,476
Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of street smarts or street confidence.

204
00:15:24,276 --> 00:15:29,196
Speaker 1: So yes, for sure, it is a much more enjoyable

205
00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:34,356
Speaker 1: dinner if nobody is looking at or responding to their phone.

206
00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:40,356
Speaker 1: But what I want, as much as that rule, is

207
00:15:40,676 --> 00:15:46,556
Speaker 1: for the families to get outside and to have the

208
00:15:46,636 --> 00:15:52,356
Speaker 1: opportunity to have their mirror neurons vibrate with I love

209
00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:58,236
Speaker 1: this term consequential strangers. My biggest concern about this generation

210
00:15:58,556 --> 00:16:01,836
Speaker 1: is not whether they're going to master coding or Mandarin,

211
00:16:01,996 --> 00:16:07,436
Speaker 1: those two things they probably won't need shortly, but to

212
00:16:07,596 --> 00:16:11,916
Speaker 1: be able to talk to people they don't already know,

213
00:16:12,036 --> 00:16:17,916
Speaker 1: to have conversations with adults, to enjoy the company and

214
00:16:18,116 --> 00:16:24,876
Speaker 1: fellowship and sisterhood of new people. Because their parents are distracted,

215
00:16:25,116 --> 00:16:30,236
Speaker 1: the kids are distracted, and the allure. There's a wonderful

216
00:16:30,516 --> 00:16:33,356
Speaker 1: new book I believe the author is Michael Moss, and

217
00:16:33,436 --> 00:16:39,436
Speaker 1: it's called Hooked. It's about the addictiveness of fast food,

218
00:16:40,036 --> 00:16:44,436
Speaker 1: and it's about so much how our brains operate and

219
00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:48,636
Speaker 1: what appeals to what produces dopamine, and how it works.

220
00:16:49,316 --> 00:16:53,996
Speaker 1: So we have these dopamine generators available at all times

221
00:16:53,996 --> 00:16:58,156
Speaker 1: that are vital for school work, for communication, even for

222
00:16:58,236 --> 00:17:02,436
Speaker 1: little kids communicating with their grandma and grandpa. And at

223
00:17:02,476 --> 00:17:07,356
Speaker 1: the same time we are missing out on so much.

224
00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:10,356
Speaker 1: I have to say, I'm less worried. Then your description

225
00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:13,836
Speaker 1: is about the kid's ability to meet people, because I

226
00:17:13,836 --> 00:17:16,116
Speaker 1: actually think partly because of social media, they have a

227
00:17:16,196 --> 00:17:18,836
Speaker 1: much broader acquaintance ship than I did at their age.

228
00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:21,236
Speaker 1: I mean, my friends were limited really to the kids

229
00:17:21,276 --> 00:17:23,276
Speaker 1: I could see in person, either in school or in

230
00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:26,276
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. And they have friends who don't live in

231
00:17:26,276 --> 00:17:29,076
Speaker 1: the neighborhood and they don't go to school with And

232
00:17:29,236 --> 00:17:32,716
Speaker 1: those online friendships can also blossom into real, real friendships

233
00:17:32,716 --> 00:17:36,796
Speaker 1: and real you know, irl friendships and you know, in relationships.

234
00:17:36,836 --> 00:17:39,836
Speaker 1: So I'm actually not so worried about about that aspect

235
00:17:39,836 --> 00:17:42,476
Speaker 1: of it. I do agree there's been a fundamental social

236
00:17:42,556 --> 00:17:45,996
Speaker 1: change with respect to the street and how the street functioned,

237
00:17:46,996 --> 00:17:48,396
Speaker 1: you know, in my childhood, and I live only a

238
00:17:48,396 --> 00:17:50,756
Speaker 1: mile from where I grew up, but I can see

239
00:17:50,756 --> 00:17:53,676
Speaker 1: a total transformation and how the streets are were a

240
00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:56,196
Speaker 1: place of running around impacts and just are not anymore.

241
00:17:59,516 --> 00:18:06,716
Speaker 1: There's wonderful work by Ellen Sandsetter, who is who studies

242
00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:12,556
Speaker 1: phobias in children. She wrote an article called the Antiphobic

243
00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:18,236
Speaker 1: Effects of Thrilling Experience, and she says that unless kids

244
00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:23,596
Speaker 1: are exposed to danger, they will be more fearful, and

245
00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:26,596
Speaker 1: she names the kinds of danger she says they have

246
00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:28,996
Speaker 1: to be. Take a zip line. Yes, that sort of thing,

247
00:18:29,476 --> 00:18:32,796
Speaker 1: much worse than a zip line, so great heights where

248
00:18:32,796 --> 00:18:40,836
Speaker 1: they could fall near fire, dangerous tools, aggression, social and

249
00:18:40,916 --> 00:18:47,876
Speaker 1: physical aggression, traveling at great speed, and wayfinding. One of

250
00:18:47,916 --> 00:18:51,476
Speaker 1: the problems with technology is that's the main source of

251
00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:56,276
Speaker 1: danger for our children. They don't get to learn how

252
00:18:56,316 --> 00:19:01,716
Speaker 1: to titrate danger before they go off to college on

253
00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:08,676
Speaker 1: their own that is not screen based danger. So I

254
00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:15,196
Speaker 1: and and wayfinding. Wayfinding can seem obsolete in an era

255
00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:20,196
Speaker 1: of Google Maps. No, that's really true, really true, And

256
00:19:20,596 --> 00:19:27,436
Speaker 1: so these experiences need to be constructed, and it requires

257
00:19:27,436 --> 00:19:30,116
Speaker 1: a lot of creativity on parents' parts. So what they

258
00:19:30,156 --> 00:19:34,436
Speaker 1: do instead is say, okay, two hours of screen time

259
00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:39,196
Speaker 1: after all your homework is done. And we are then

260
00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:51,516
Speaker 1: a cross between security guards, concierge services and keeping track

261
00:19:51,676 --> 00:19:56,516
Speaker 1: from moment to moment of what the children are doing

262
00:19:56,636 --> 00:20:01,396
Speaker 1: when we really want them to be able to monitor

263
00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:06,236
Speaker 1: and make good judgments about that. Yeah, I mean, what

264
00:20:06,316 --> 00:20:08,436
Speaker 1: I hear you saying is that that kind of a

265
00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:11,716
Speaker 1: rule is too rigid, and that this goes back to

266
00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:15,156
Speaker 1: our conversation about rigidity, that it puts the parent in

267
00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:17,756
Speaker 1: the position of enforcing a rigid rule, It puts the

268
00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:20,316
Speaker 1: kid in the position not of being autonomous and making

269
00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:22,916
Speaker 1: judgments and learning to make mistakes and fix them, but

270
00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:25,916
Speaker 1: simply in the position of following yet another rule in

271
00:20:25,956 --> 00:20:31,276
Speaker 1: a world that's already far too full of rules and restrictions, rules,

272
00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:34,796
Speaker 1: rest grades and ranking. Yeah, so what I mean, tell

273
00:20:34,836 --> 00:20:36,476
Speaker 1: me if I'm if I'm hearing you correctly, I mean,

274
00:20:36,476 --> 00:20:39,076
Speaker 1: what I hear you saying is some version of Noah,

275
00:20:39,156 --> 00:20:43,396
Speaker 1: just relax, you know, I mean, this is fine. Our

276
00:20:43,436 --> 00:20:45,436
Speaker 1: society as a whole may have gone down a rabbit

277
00:20:45,476 --> 00:20:50,436
Speaker 1: hole of technological addiction, and kids live in the society too,

278
00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:53,116
Speaker 1: but will self correct at some point as a society,

279
00:20:53,156 --> 00:20:55,916
Speaker 1: and they'll self correct when everybody else self corrects. And

280
00:20:55,996 --> 00:20:58,436
Speaker 1: the kind of picture of erosion that films like The

281
00:20:58,476 --> 00:21:03,556
Speaker 1: Social Dilemma do suggest is grossly exaggerated with respect to

282
00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:07,996
Speaker 1: the great majority of people who can come to terms

283
00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:10,876
Speaker 1: with new technologies. And if that's the message, I'm jumping

284
00:21:10,916 --> 00:21:13,516
Speaker 1: up and down with joy, because it, you know, it's

285
00:21:13,556 --> 00:21:17,676
Speaker 1: sort of it suggests that we don't have to be

286
00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:21,556
Speaker 1: in a panic, even in a situation like the post

287
00:21:21,556 --> 00:21:25,916
Speaker 1: pandemic world where we've just as a society locked everything down,

288
00:21:26,316 --> 00:21:31,836
Speaker 1: imposed rules, imposed rigidity, been very fear based, possibly rationally

289
00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:35,156
Speaker 1: fear based, but nevertheless fear based. Now we're going to

290
00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:38,476
Speaker 1: crawl out from under it. We have had to do

291
00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:41,716
Speaker 1: this for over a year in order to save our lives.

292
00:21:42,276 --> 00:21:48,596
Speaker 1: The decision fatigue we have about tiny nuanced angles of things.

293
00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:52,036
Speaker 1: And originally we thought the virus could travel on surfaces,

294
00:21:52,076 --> 00:21:54,796
Speaker 1: and then we discovered it was aerosol. And now we're

295
00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:56,916
Speaker 1: supposed to be allowed to take off our masks. But

296
00:21:57,036 --> 00:22:01,756
Speaker 1: should we being paranoid or getting it right or wrong?

297
00:22:01,956 --> 00:22:05,836
Speaker 1: Which is what we feel so often as parents. We

298
00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:07,956
Speaker 1: want to do it right, and then people like me

299
00:22:08,116 --> 00:22:10,396
Speaker 1: right parenting, but tell you how to do it and

300
00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:13,196
Speaker 1: react like experts, and then you read them and think, oh,

301
00:22:13,236 --> 00:22:15,236
Speaker 1: should I do what she said? Not what she said?

302
00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:21,836
Speaker 1: And there's so much thinking going on that what gets

303
00:22:21,996 --> 00:22:27,356
Speaker 1: lost are the full range of feelings. And the other

304
00:22:27,396 --> 00:22:32,876
Speaker 1: piece is laughter. And the part of what happens online

305
00:22:33,356 --> 00:22:40,476
Speaker 1: is just a glory in snark and in dismissing other

306
00:22:40,556 --> 00:22:46,756
Speaker 1: people and of feeling superior. But there is also wit

307
00:22:47,156 --> 00:22:53,876
Speaker 1: and whimsy and good silliness to be found online and

308
00:22:53,956 --> 00:22:57,076
Speaker 1: to be found in real life. So if you want

309
00:22:57,116 --> 00:23:00,796
Speaker 1: to worry about your family, one thing you can say

310
00:23:01,116 --> 00:23:03,876
Speaker 1: is not two hours of tag no more than that,

311
00:23:03,956 --> 00:23:06,236
Speaker 1: and get outside and get some fresh air. And why

312
00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:09,556
Speaker 1: are you eating that? And why aren't you exercising. We're

313
00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:14,196
Speaker 1: so close to the kids that anything you're close to

314
00:23:14,276 --> 00:23:18,556
Speaker 1: you see all the flaws, and it's hard to step

315
00:23:18,636 --> 00:23:23,356
Speaker 1: back and to zoom out and have the wide view.

316
00:23:23,476 --> 00:23:25,476
Speaker 1: So if you want to worry about things, it may

317
00:23:25,596 --> 00:23:30,156
Speaker 1: be that you're not laughing en up with your children

318
00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:34,716
Speaker 1: and laughing about them in private with your partner. We'll

319
00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:46,636
Speaker 1: be back in a moment. It may be too soon

320
00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:49,956
Speaker 1: still to have this conversation fully, but let me just

321
00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:53,956
Speaker 1: ask you in a preliminary way, do you think that

322
00:23:54,396 --> 00:24:00,756
Speaker 1: we went too far in the pathologizing direction in the

323
00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:05,596
Speaker 1: course of the last year and change in trying to,

324
00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:09,876
Speaker 1: as you said, keep ourselves alive. I mean, we were

325
00:24:10,436 --> 00:24:13,836
Speaker 1: getting guidance, that guidance was shifting over time, but there

326
00:24:13,876 --> 00:24:18,396
Speaker 1: was inevitably a pathologizing component there. I mean, after all,

327
00:24:18,396 --> 00:24:20,916
Speaker 1: we were surrounded by a pathogen, or we imagined ourselves

328
00:24:20,956 --> 00:24:24,596
Speaker 1: to be surrounded by a pathogen, and lots of people

329
00:24:24,636 --> 00:24:26,676
Speaker 1: got it and got sick from it, and some died

330
00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:30,316
Speaker 1: from it. When you look at that retrospectively, do you

331
00:24:30,356 --> 00:24:33,316
Speaker 1: think we'll look back and say we got it right,

332
00:24:33,796 --> 00:24:37,076
Speaker 1: or we got it roughly right, or we took it

333
00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:40,476
Speaker 1: too far in terms of the psychological costs for us

334
00:24:40,476 --> 00:24:44,396
Speaker 1: as human beings who are not really designed to live

335
00:24:44,676 --> 00:24:51,996
Speaker 1: under consistent fear for that period of time. I am

336
00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:56,156
Speaker 1: confident that we will look back and say we couldn't

337
00:24:56,196 --> 00:25:01,076
Speaker 1: have done it differently because we didn't know. The part

338
00:25:01,156 --> 00:25:05,876
Speaker 1: that concerns me right now is the fear that the

339
00:25:06,076 --> 00:25:11,156
Speaker 1: children have had serious learning loss, they have lost their

340
00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:16,836
Speaker 1: social skills, that we will not bounce back and recover

341
00:25:17,596 --> 00:25:23,516
Speaker 1: from what was a tremendously interesting time that every single

342
00:25:23,556 --> 00:25:25,956
Speaker 1: one of us. We have a big advantage now we

343
00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:28,356
Speaker 1: live through this and we get to talk about this

344
00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:32,036
Speaker 1: till we're boring people to death about this. I think

345
00:25:32,036 --> 00:25:35,996
Speaker 1: we're getting there amazing time in history. But I'm talking

346
00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:39,956
Speaker 1: about if the planet does continue and there are future

347
00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:46,076
Speaker 1: generations of children, they will be so interested. So this

348
00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:48,636
Speaker 1: is the pandemic as a giant skinned knee that will

349
00:25:48,756 --> 00:25:51,836
Speaker 1: resiliently bounce back from Yeah, a skinned and you get

350
00:25:51,836 --> 00:25:55,476
Speaker 1: a skinned by doing adventurous things that we don't do.

351
00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:58,756
Speaker 1: Not wish this on anyone and all the extreme losses,

352
00:25:58,796 --> 00:26:01,396
Speaker 1: but The other thing it did is it came in

353
00:26:01,516 --> 00:26:07,156
Speaker 1: parallel with the reckoning about all kinds of issues about

354
00:26:07,236 --> 00:26:10,556
Speaker 1: social justice, about the eco, to me, about how we've

355
00:26:10,796 --> 00:26:17,156
Speaker 1: organized children's lives and our expectations for children, the national

356
00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:22,116
Speaker 1: everybody went through this, not equally, but we went through this,

357
00:26:22,796 --> 00:26:27,956
Speaker 1: and it is a life experience that we now can

358
00:26:28,276 --> 00:26:32,156
Speaker 1: use to look back at the way we were living

359
00:26:32,316 --> 00:26:36,836
Speaker 1: and evaluate how much we want to reinstate and how

360
00:26:36,916 --> 00:26:40,276
Speaker 1: much we want to change. So, I don't know if

361
00:26:40,276 --> 00:26:45,676
Speaker 1: you've felt it personally in your family, some of these

362
00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:51,556
Speaker 1: sparkling moments or insights you had about the pace of life,

363
00:26:52,116 --> 00:26:57,516
Speaker 1: the expectations of what one does in a day, what

364
00:26:57,716 --> 00:27:03,596
Speaker 1: brings comfort and delight, and what brings a necessary overthinking

365
00:27:03,716 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 1: and anxiety. But it really has been an opportunity, yes,

366
00:27:08,756 --> 00:27:13,636
Speaker 1: to quiver in terror, but at the same time to

367
00:27:13,996 --> 00:27:19,556
Speaker 1: gain new insight and perspective on what children need and

368
00:27:19,676 --> 00:27:22,796
Speaker 1: what parents are responsible for giving them and what we

369
00:27:22,836 --> 00:27:28,756
Speaker 1: are not responsible for doing, but they are responsible for themselves. Wendy,

370
00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:30,996
Speaker 1: in your practice, you're seeing lots of people who are

371
00:27:31,196 --> 00:27:34,036
Speaker 1: all coming out of COVID right now, and I'm wondering

372
00:27:34,076 --> 00:27:38,876
Speaker 1: if you have any big picture advice that might apply

373
00:27:38,996 --> 00:27:41,556
Speaker 1: to lots of us as we try to figure out

374
00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:46,116
Speaker 1: how to navigate the next stages. One thing that's been

375
00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:52,036
Speaker 1: very helpful to parents is to see who their child is.

376
00:27:53,836 --> 00:27:57,836
Speaker 1: So there's an impulse to be back to in person

377
00:27:57,916 --> 00:28:01,036
Speaker 1: school where the kids have a choice, to be back

378
00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:06,316
Speaker 1: to baseball and the practices and the games, but maybe

379
00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:10,916
Speaker 1: not to parties or socializing. So we're sort of eager

380
00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:16,716
Speaker 1: to have them back to all the transcript worthy activities

381
00:28:16,876 --> 00:28:20,116
Speaker 1: or what feels wholesome and healthy to parents and is,

382
00:28:21,116 --> 00:28:27,956
Speaker 1: but very fearful about what can feel maybe a little

383
00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:32,236
Speaker 1: bit more frivolous or even more risky. And that gets

384
00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:37,916
Speaker 1: back to the moderation, celebration and sanctification that for each

385
00:28:37,996 --> 00:28:41,196
Speaker 1: child it's going to be different. And some are just

386
00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:43,956
Speaker 1: like when they go off to preschool. Some are slow,

387
00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 1: too warm, and others dive right in. They go into preschool.

388
00:28:48,596 --> 00:28:51,556
Speaker 1: They don't even look back at mom or dad who's there.

389
00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:56,596
Speaker 1: They just dash in. So every single family will have

390
00:28:56,636 --> 00:29:01,236
Speaker 1: different standards and each child will have different standards dirts,

391
00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:03,836
Speaker 1: and the piece of guidance that I give parents is

392
00:29:04,596 --> 00:29:08,956
Speaker 1: don't listen too much to the barking chain or the

393
00:29:09,276 --> 00:29:13,636
Speaker 1: loud mouths or the know it alls, and to really

394
00:29:13,876 --> 00:29:19,436
Speaker 1: think about your child's pace of reentry, what feels safe

395
00:29:19,476 --> 00:29:23,036
Speaker 1: to your family and appropriate, and that may be different

396
00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:27,276
Speaker 1: than your extended family. And to have the courage and

397
00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:31,436
Speaker 1: confidence to be able to say, and this is a

398
00:29:31,476 --> 00:29:34,836
Speaker 1: wonderful thing to say to teenagers all the time. I

399
00:29:34,916 --> 00:29:36,636
Speaker 1: know you don't see it the way I see it,

400
00:29:36,676 --> 00:29:39,956
Speaker 1: but that's how I am, or that's where I stand,

401
00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:45,196
Speaker 1: or that's this is the rule or the expectation that

402
00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:49,676
Speaker 1: I have. And then the relative or the child can

403
00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:54,516
Speaker 1: jump up and down in distress, and you can stand

404
00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:57,836
Speaker 1: on your spot, and then you can always say I've

405
00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:01,916
Speaker 1: thought about it some more. I see your point. But

406
00:30:02,276 --> 00:30:04,956
Speaker 1: at first to listen to what they have to say

407
00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:07,876
Speaker 1: about what they wish to do. And the other part

408
00:30:08,196 --> 00:30:18,556
Speaker 1: is not too not to allow yourself to become too

409
00:30:18,596 --> 00:30:25,276
Speaker 1: fearful or too aggressive because of the opinions of other

410
00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:31,556
Speaker 1: parents who feel so strongly one way or the other. Wendy,

411
00:30:31,596 --> 00:30:34,116
Speaker 1: in reading your work, I always walk away with this

412
00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:38,396
Speaker 1: strong feeling of having heard something deeply sensible that also

413
00:30:38,476 --> 00:30:40,836
Speaker 1: makes me feel better because I think she's right. And

414
00:30:40,836 --> 00:30:42,356
Speaker 1: if I could just take a deep breath and admit

415
00:30:42,436 --> 00:30:44,676
Speaker 1: that she's right, then everything would be a lot better.

416
00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:47,356
Speaker 1: And I'm thrilled to see that actually talking to in

417
00:30:47,436 --> 00:30:51,756
Speaker 1: person has the same effect. So thank you very much

418
00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:55,996
Speaker 1: for your your wisdom, your rationality, at your thoughtful judgment,

419
00:30:56,076 --> 00:30:59,876
Speaker 1: your pragmatism, and for your your insights here. I'm really grateful,

420
00:30:59,956 --> 00:31:09,956
Speaker 1: thank you, Oh no, thank you Wendy to come on

421
00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:13,596
Speaker 1: the podcast, because at a very personal level, I was

422
00:31:13,756 --> 00:31:17,196
Speaker 1: really troubled by the question of whether we need to

423
00:31:17,236 --> 00:31:19,956
Speaker 1: turn the clock back to the time before the pandemic

424
00:31:20,316 --> 00:31:24,196
Speaker 1: in thinking about tech and our kids. But as I

425
00:31:24,236 --> 00:31:26,756
Speaker 1: spoke to her, I also realized that the theme of

426
00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:29,756
Speaker 1: power that we're focusing on on deep background this year

427
00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:33,756
Speaker 1: was very much in evidence the power of the technology

428
00:31:33,836 --> 00:31:37,916
Speaker 1: itself to draw us in our power as parents, and

429
00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:40,516
Speaker 1: the limits on that power when it comes to telling

430
00:31:40,636 --> 00:31:44,756
Speaker 1: kids what they should do. Kids power as human beings

431
00:31:44,796 --> 00:31:48,396
Speaker 1: in interaction both with themselves and their worlds and with

432
00:31:48,476 --> 00:31:52,316
Speaker 1: the adults around them. The truth is that getting these

433
00:31:52,396 --> 00:31:55,836
Speaker 1: questions right, Wendy points out, is not just a matter

434
00:31:55,916 --> 00:31:59,396
Speaker 1: of setting rules and imposing them. That is an old fashioned,

435
00:31:59,476 --> 00:32:04,596
Speaker 1: simplistic conception of what adult power over children looks like. Instead,

436
00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:08,356
Speaker 1: what Wendy is advocating for in our conversation, as indeed

437
00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:11,836
Speaker 1: in all of her humane and thoughtful work, is balancing

438
00:32:12,036 --> 00:32:15,436
Speaker 1: through empathy and thinking through how to make the right

439
00:32:15,476 --> 00:32:21,436
Speaker 1: decisions in a collaborative fashion without pathologizing ourselves, without pathologizing

440
00:32:21,436 --> 00:32:26,396
Speaker 1: our parenting, and above all, without pathologizing our kids. If

441
00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:29,876
Speaker 1: we can pull that off, then we've learned Wendy's lessons,

442
00:32:30,236 --> 00:32:33,116
Speaker 1: and I think all of our lives would be just

443
00:32:33,276 --> 00:32:37,076
Speaker 1: a little bit better. At a minimum, we could stop

444
00:32:37,236 --> 00:32:41,356
Speaker 1: worrying and start living again. Until the next time I

445
00:32:41,396 --> 00:32:45,316
Speaker 1: speak to you, Be careful, be safe, don't worry about

446
00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:49,556
Speaker 1: your phone, and be well. Deep background is brought to

447
00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:53,716
Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Mo laboord our

448
00:32:53,756 --> 00:32:56,876
Speaker 1: engineer is Martin Gonzales, and our shore runner is Sophie

449
00:32:56,916 --> 00:33:01,396
Speaker 1: Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. Theme music by

450
00:33:01,436 --> 00:33:05,356
Speaker 1: Luis Skara at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton,

451
00:33:05,596 --> 00:33:10,516
Speaker 1: Lydia Jean Cott, Heather Faine, Carly Mgliori, mag Taylor, Eric Sandler,

452
00:33:10,596 --> 00:33:13,316
Speaker 1: and Jacob Weissberg. You can find me on Twitter at

453
00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:16,716
Speaker 1: Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion,

454
00:33:16,836 --> 00:33:19,876
Speaker 1: which you can find at bloomberg dot com slash Feldman.

455
00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:23,756
Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to bloomberg

456
00:33:23,796 --> 00:33:26,556
Speaker 1: dot com slash podcasts, and if you liked what you

457
00:33:26,596 --> 00:33:29,356
Speaker 1: heard today, please write a review or tell a friend.

458
00:33:29,756 --> 00:33:31,156
Speaker 1: This is deep background