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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and.

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Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

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Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 3: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. I'm staying busy as always. When

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Speaker 1: am I not busy, I feel like I'm only Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've got a lot going on, But I think, do

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Speaker 1: you have an active investigation going on? You're cheating on me.

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Speaker 1: I know when I talk about that all the time,

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Speaker 1: first with small Town Dixon, now with who What's Happening?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, I've been doing an active investigation.

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Speaker 2: It's actually for an audible project. And right now I

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Speaker 2: can't necessarily, you know, provide the details, but it's been

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Speaker 2: going on for two years, and it involves a serial

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Speaker 2: killer out of the Bay Area who I, you know,

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Speaker 2: got involved with back in twenty and eleven as part

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Speaker 2: of the original task force. And there's unsolved cases that

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Speaker 2: this guy has committed, and so part of my, you know,

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Speaker 2: role in this active investigation is to try to identify,

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Speaker 2: you know, the other the other cases that he has

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Speaker 2: never been convicted of of. And it's been a rollercoaster

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Speaker 2: ride to I mean, it's just been absolutely crazy, the

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Speaker 2: twists and turns. I had no idea how this thing

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Speaker 2: was going to play out. In fact, I didn't think

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Speaker 2: anybody was digging into this case. I thought it was

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Speaker 2: a forgotten case. And then it turns out that I

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Speaker 2: have who I would describe as a professional friend. She's

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Speaker 2: an FBI agent, and when I initially started getting involved

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Speaker 2: with my investigation, turns out she was actually talking to him.

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Speaker 1: Where's as he in folsom or where is he?

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Speaker 2: You know? He was on death row at sack Quinton,

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Speaker 2: But then California dissolved death row and so all these

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Speaker 2: death row inmates were distributed throughout the California what we

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Speaker 2: you know, the California Prison system is known as CDCR,

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Speaker 2: and so they were distributed, and he's an elderly gentleman,

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Speaker 2: so he was put in a healthcare facility. And I

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Speaker 2: was like in a massive scramble, thinking, this guy who's

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Speaker 2: ninety almost ninety two at this point, he's going to

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Speaker 2: die and take his secrets with him, so I need

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Speaker 2: to get in and go talk to him. And when

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Speaker 2: I went through my contacts to get in front of him,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I was being told, Oh, there's

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Speaker 2: this FBI agent that's talking to him, and so I

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Speaker 2: called her up because I knew her for like two decades,

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Speaker 2: you know, knowing her. You know, we had had some

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Speaker 2: drinks after this, but you know, it was back the

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Speaker 2: fuck off and I was like, what what is going

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Speaker 2: on here? Who's looking into this? And you know, eventually,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is where the FBI can be so

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Speaker 2: frustrating because they are very controlling over what their agents

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Speaker 2: are doing, which I can completely appreciate. But even when

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Speaker 2: things are at a point to where you can go public,

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Speaker 2: the FBI still has a tendency to be very conservative

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Speaker 2: and there's you know, so much good work. Just like

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Speaker 2: in Golden State Killer, I had my partner out of

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Speaker 2: the FBI, Steve Kramer, who did amazing work after Golden

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Speaker 2: State killer case was solved, and he's now like pushing

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Speaker 2: genealogy within the FBI world. And I was like, let's

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Speaker 2: talk about this. Let's just highlight the good work that

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Speaker 2: this guy's doing and his name is Steve Kramer, and

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Speaker 2: the FBI just absolutely refused, even though, like I was

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Speaker 2: a former FBI Task Force officer. It's like, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to do you guys a solid here and highlight what

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Speaker 2: you're doing and what your agents are doing. And I'm

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Speaker 2: now running into the same thing with this particular agent.

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Speaker 2: She's doing amazing work and it's like I want to

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Speaker 2: highlight that, and the FBI said no. So I'm waiting

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Speaker 2: for her to retire, and it turns out she's retiring

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Speaker 2: this month and maybe she will talk and hopefully people

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Speaker 2: will learn, you know this, what this heroin has been

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Speaker 2: doing over the last you know, almost three decades of

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Speaker 2: a career.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that's wonderful that you know. We're hopefully

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Speaker 1: you'll be able to talk to us right after your

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Speaker 1: piece comes out. We have an interesting case. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to drag you back, kicking and screaming to the eighteen fifties, okay,

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Speaker 1: which you know. I love how we balance things. So

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Speaker 1: we have more recent cases. By recent, I mean the seventies.

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Speaker 1: We have more recent cases with lots of photos. We

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Speaker 1: have very very old cases, and I think they all

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Speaker 1: have their own benefits, right, I mean, sometimes you're surprised

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Speaker 1: at how well investigators do from seventeen ten compared to

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Speaker 1: investigators that don't do well when they have more modern technology.

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Speaker 1: So we'll see what you think about this case, because

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Speaker 1: it's definitely an interesting one.

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Speaker 2: All right, I'm looking forward to it as always.

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Speaker 1: All Right, let's set the scene. We're in Rochester, New York.

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Speaker 1: Love it, Love Rochester, and we are on the bank

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Speaker 1: of the Genesee River, and it's December twentieth, eighteen fifty seven.

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Speaker 1: I think we've started a few of our cases on

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Speaker 1: the bank of a river. The pollution one, remember, I

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Speaker 1: think it was in Australia, the people who died because

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Speaker 1: they were making out or whatever, crazy one. I know

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Speaker 1: that was amazing, on the bank of a river that

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Speaker 1: was polluted. I think we've had several of those, but

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Speaker 1: this is, you know, where we're starting. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: we've had this kind of case yet, where there are

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Speaker 1: people looking for one person and they find another. So

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Speaker 1: before I even tell you about that, you know, we've

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Speaker 1: talked about people finding bodies, bottle collectors and can collectors.

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Speaker 1: You've told me, of course, I've done a million stories

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Speaker 1: on poor little kids who are out poking around and

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Speaker 1: find a body. This is a search for someone, and

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Speaker 1: they don't find that someone. They find somebody completely different.

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Speaker 1: Is that something that you've ever run across or heard

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Speaker 1: about before more modern times?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? You know, what ends up happening is is that

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Speaker 2: within a particular geographic region, there's select areas that you know,

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Speaker 2: people know about that are isolated, and so when they

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Speaker 2: commit a crime and they have a body, you know,

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Speaker 2: they naturally think, well, this is a good area to

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Speaker 2: go dump the body. Well, it turns out they're not

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Speaker 2: the only ones thinking about that, you know. So you know,

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Speaker 2: over the course of you know, often you know, several decades,

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Speaker 2: you can get multiple bodies dumped in the same area.

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Speaker 2: And now you know, when law enforcement is out searching

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Speaker 2: because they got a tip, you know, then they run

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Speaker 2: across one, two three. I mean I've literally had cases

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Speaker 2: like this where I'm out there and there's other crimes

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Speaker 2: that have been committed where other bodies were dumped in

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Speaker 2: the same area over the decades. And I relatively recently

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Speaker 2: consulted on a case out of Vancouver, Washington Portland area,

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Speaker 2: the serial killer named Warren Forrest. There's a podcast The

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Speaker 2: Soul and Voice is a Dole valley in which literally

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Speaker 2: law enforcement is they respond a body had been found

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Speaker 2: by I think it was hunters, and as they're out there,

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Speaker 2: they run across another body. Well, it turns out the

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Speaker 2: serial killer, Well, he used the same dumping ground, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it's not a unique circumstance. I wouldn't say it's common,

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Speaker 2: but it's a real thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, this is going to be one of those

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Speaker 1: times I'm going to have to describe something to you,

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Speaker 1: a topography which you might understand, and I just want

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Speaker 1: to make sure I understand the way that this goes. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So they are looking for a man who is important

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Speaker 1: in the Jewish community in Rochester. I know it sounds

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Speaker 1: like we're heading one way. We're not. This is a

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Speaker 1: guy who was walking over a rickety bridge on this river.

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Speaker 1: The river goes into a ninety six foot high falls

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Speaker 1: called Great falls. So you've got the river, you've got

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Speaker 1: the falls, and then you've got the body of water

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Speaker 1: underneath it. That's been described a couple of different ways.

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Speaker 1: So I have in a minute, I have a modern

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Speaker 1: photo of what this looks like, and then I have

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Speaker 1: a drawing a depiction of just what the area looks

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Speaker 1: like at the time. So they are looking for this man.

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Speaker 1: He was important with a particular synagogue, and there's a

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Speaker 1: big reward for him. So everybody's out looking. They're in

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Speaker 1: the water of this river, the Genesee River, they're in

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Speaker 1: the embarkment. They are searching for this guy who had

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Speaker 1: been crossing this rickety bridge that had been shut down.

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Speaker 1: Nobody was supposed to walk over it. He did. It's

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Speaker 1: called the Andrew's Street bridge. He fell into the river

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Speaker 1: and then this crowd. A lot of people were watching,

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Speaker 1: I think, because you're not supposed to be on that bridge,

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Speaker 1: and they were watching as he got swept over the falls.

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Speaker 1: I told you, it was almost one hundred feet high

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Speaker 1: and into the body water below. Let me first, since

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Speaker 1: this is where we're going to find a body, and

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Speaker 1: it is not the man associated with the synagogue. They

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Speaker 1: will find his body later, not a murder victim. It

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Speaker 1: was a bad accident.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that sounds weird though, is that you

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Speaker 2: have a crowd watching this man walk across a bridge.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like this is some sort of stage event.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like Houdini going over Niagara Falls, right,

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Speaker 2: you know what.

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Speaker 1: I think that this is a situation more like it's

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Speaker 1: sort of like Niagara Falls where people are looking at

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Speaker 1: the MIT's beautiful. I'll show you, and I think that

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Speaker 1: there it's more of like not a staged event, but

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Speaker 1: people there sightseeing and watching and this is like a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a bustling city. So that's the impression

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Speaker 1: I got. But let me show you. Go ahead and

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Speaker 1: open up your foot poos. And I know I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of jumping the gun because we'ven't even talked about the

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Speaker 1: body that was found, but I just want you to

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Speaker 1: get a sense for what this is. Oh wow, So

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Speaker 1: it's impressive. So this is a depiction of the falls.

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Speaker 1: So this is from I think eighteen thirty six and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about nineteen fifty so it probably didn't change significantly.

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Speaker 1: So I have to throw out some phrases, and I

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Speaker 1: probably should do it now because I don't want us

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Speaker 1: to get mixed up, because to me, there's three different areas.

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Speaker 1: There's the river, the Genesee River, which feeds into the falls,

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Speaker 1: and then you've got the Great Falls that drops, and

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Speaker 1: then we've got something called Great Falls Park. And they're

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Speaker 1: also talking about an eddy, a small eddy, and that's

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Speaker 1: where they end up finding the body that we don't

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Speaker 1: know about yet.

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Speaker 2: This literally looks like Niagara Falls but has a town

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Speaker 2: surrounding it. Probably not as big as Niagara Falls, but

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Speaker 2: it's it's I mean, this is not just like a

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Speaker 2: single waterfall. This is like an entire river or going

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Speaker 2: over this cliff down into the basin. I'm looking at

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Speaker 2: the bridge in the background, and it appears that this

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Speaker 2: thing is easily a couple hundred feet wide. And now

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Speaker 2: you have a river that is crashing down over a

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Speaker 2: cliff down into a basin. And when you mentioned an eddie,

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Speaker 2: I can only envision. Of course, there's going to be

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Speaker 2: certain dead areas, right. So if you have something that

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Speaker 2: is floating, let's say you have driftwood, you know it's

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Speaker 2: up and then it gets caught in an eddy and

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Speaker 2: then it just kind of stays. What you know, and

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Speaker 2: this is probably not technically correct, but like this tidal

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Speaker 2: pool area, as it's just sitting there floating until for

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Speaker 2: whatever reason, it gets caught up into the current and

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Speaker 2: then ends up going more downriver. And so I can

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Speaker 2: easily see in a situation like this where a body

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Speaker 2: is going to get caught into this weird eddy spot

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Speaker 2: and stay there for a period of time.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to show you another one. This is a

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Speaker 1: different point of view that was helpful to me. I

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Speaker 1: think I was looking for the basin part of it.

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Speaker 1: What do we call that, because that's where some of

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Speaker 1: our action is. I was thinking, this is an interesting

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Speaker 1: place to dump a body. It also could not be

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Speaker 1: what you intended because if it gets caught, which is

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Speaker 1: what ends up happening. If it gets caught, it's not

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Speaker 1: going to end up in the place where you want

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Speaker 1: it to be.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at this, and now I'm you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: no marritime expert, but I've done some research on currents

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Speaker 2: and stuff like in the Bay area, and I can

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Speaker 2: see where, Okay, you're going to have a lot of

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Speaker 2: churn if you will, at the bottom of the falls,

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Speaker 2: which makes sense. But then as you move away from

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Speaker 2: these falls, you know, in essence, it's almost like this peaceful,

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Speaker 2: tranquil lake, but it has a current that is going

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Speaker 2: to be directed to the right, but when you look

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Speaker 2: at the left of it, that's going to be sort

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Speaker 2: of a dead area. So like, if I'm looking at this,

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Speaker 2: I'm now predicting, Okay, where is an eddy in which

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Speaker 2: a body's going to be found? And if I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at this, I'm going to go, well, it's going to

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Speaker 2: be a distance away from the falls, possibly on the

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Speaker 2: left hand side because you're going to see some swirling

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Speaker 2: going on there, but maybe even up against the coast

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Speaker 2: that's in the foreground of this thing. But I also

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Speaker 2: know that there can be something behind the falls, you

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Speaker 2: know where now things can get trapped and they just

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Speaker 2: kind of circulate behind the falls.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, as I said, this guy had been crossing

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Speaker 1: his name was Nathan, had been crossing over this rotten bridge.

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Speaker 1: He fell into the river. People were watching. This was

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Speaker 1: a stop. I just read about this. This was a

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Speaker 1: common stop this river in the falls for people going

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Speaker 1: to and from Niagara Falls. So you know, I guess

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Speaker 1: it's a day at the fall for some people. So

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Speaker 1: that's why there was a lot of people watching, you

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Speaker 1: could see why it's beautiful. So then we see that

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Speaker 1: his body gets swept over ninety six feet into the falls.

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Speaker 1: So now they're searching, searching in a small eddy on

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Speaker 1: the bank of falls field, which would be at the bottom.

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Speaker 1: The search party finds the body of a man and

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Speaker 1: this is not Nathan, the guy that they're looking for.

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Speaker 1: They find this guy later on. This is somebody totally different. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So let me tell you what the injuries are that

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Speaker 1: the sheriff sees who initially comes and looks. There's not

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of other information, frankly from the autopsy,

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Speaker 1: but this is you know what we're going to get.

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Speaker 1: So this gull is fractured, his face appears to be

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Speaker 1: badly beaten, and there are three deep and regular they say,

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Speaker 1: deep and regular cuts, seemingly inflicted by a pair of

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Speaker 1: iron knuckles that disfigure his no in his eyes. And

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the brass knuckles iron knuckles

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Speaker 1: in a second, because I have some fun facts for

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Speaker 1: you in some good photos. But how would you know

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Speaker 1: the difference between if the same thing happened to our

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Speaker 1: mystery man that happened to Nathan. He's walking across the bridge,

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Speaker 1: which is what they suspect he goes over the falls.

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Speaker 1: How are you going to know that these are not

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Speaker 1: cuts and stuff from hitting rocks on the way down

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Speaker 1: or rocks in the basin below.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that makes it very tough. You know, this

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Speaker 2: is where you know, the injuries that you're describing to

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Speaker 2: this male, fractured skull, the face looks beaten, and then

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Speaker 2: deep regular cuts to the eyes and nose. Well, the

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Speaker 2: fractured skull, of course, there's just no way you can

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Speaker 2: determine it was that as a result of homicidal violence

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Speaker 2: or is that a result or literally falling over the

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Speaker 2: falls the face being beaten? You know, maybe depending on

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Speaker 2: what they're looking at, But of course that's still kind

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Speaker 2: of a result of bludgeoning types of forces, which it's

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Speaker 2: it's going to be very tough to really differentiate at

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Speaker 2: the hands of another versus as a result of you know,

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Speaker 2: falling over the falls, the deep regular cuts, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's where it's it's really going to be the differentiating factor.

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Speaker 2: The regular aspect possibly leans it into. Now you're looking

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Speaker 2: at something that has a feature on it, like you

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Speaker 2: mentioned brass knuckles or or you know whatever else that

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Speaker 2: has a human made configuration to it versus what happens

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Speaker 2: in nature, you know, and this is where okay, so

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Speaker 2: now that's what I would want to be looking at.

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Speaker 2: It's like, okay, so what what are we looking at here?

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Speaker 2: Is it possible that a natural even if it's a

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Speaker 2: even if it's a series of different impacts, But is

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Speaker 2: it possible that incidentally there happens to be a regularity

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Speaker 2: to the injuries versus it's obvious there's no way that

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Speaker 2: that happened as a result of falling over the falls,

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Speaker 2: you know. Right now, the only thing I can keep

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Speaker 2: I can key in on is that they're saying it's

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Speaker 2: it looks like regular cuts. And then that is probably

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Speaker 2: the one thing where it's like, oh, maybe he had

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Speaker 2: some pre existing injuries as a result of homicidal violence.

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Speaker 2: And then of course is put in the water and

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Speaker 2: goes over the falls and gets additional blunt force trauma

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Speaker 2: as a result and abrasive you know, the skin is

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Speaker 2: going to be abraided as it's scraping across the rocks

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Speaker 2: and whatever else, you know, whatever other debris you know,

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Speaker 2: is in the water that the body is impacting, you know, and.

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Speaker 1: Remember nobody saw this guy. They assumed that this happened

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Speaker 1: on the bridge, the rickety bridge that no one's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be on, but it could have been at another location.

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Speaker 1: I have to assume looking at those photos that there

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Speaker 1: are different ways, several different kinds of positions, not even

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Speaker 1: on this bridge, but to the side off of these cliffs,

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Speaker 1: you know, where this could have happened also, Or am

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Speaker 1: I wrong about that?

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Speaker 2: No, for sure. You know, you know right now, even

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Speaker 2: though the body is in the water, you can't predict

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Speaker 2: where the body was placed into this water.

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Speaker 1: So look at your photo again to page three, and

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Speaker 1: I'm showing you a photo of some you know, brass knuckles.

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Speaker 1: Who uses this. It's not it's not cowboys, mobs, maybe mafia.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's it's not specific. I mean, this is something

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Speaker 2: that was used. We were when I went through the

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Speaker 2: police academy, we were trained on these types of weapons

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Speaker 2: because they're like in California, these things, this type of

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Speaker 2: weapon is illegal. You know, if you have it in

340
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Speaker 2: your purse. If you have it in your pocket, I mean,

341
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Speaker 2: you can be charged with a crime as a result

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Speaker 2: of just merely possessing something like this. But this brass knuckles.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is something that somebody can use in

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Speaker 2: their fist and in essence, instead of your knuckles impacting

345
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Speaker 2: the person that you're hitting, you now have the metal

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Speaker 2: impacting the person. So it's a much more devastating, you know,

347
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Speaker 2: type of blunt force trauma.

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Speaker 1: Well, there are three more wounds like the ones I

349
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Speaker 1: described to you on the back of his head also,

350
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Speaker 1: and there are pieces of his skull that are scattered

351
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Speaker 1: among the gravel on this you know embankment that we're

352
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Speaker 1: talking about. But go to your next photo and tell

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Speaker 1: me if you've ever seen this before.

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Speaker 2: So what I'm looking at is what appears to be

355
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Speaker 2: a revolver that has a shank at the front. There's

356
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Speaker 2: no barrel, so it's definitely a clever device. So let

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Speaker 2: me see if I can describe this adequately. So the

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Speaker 2: handle of this revolver is it looks like brass knuckles. Yeah, right,

359
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 2: So fingers can be slipped into the metal rings that

360
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 2: make up this fire and this is a firearm, there's

361
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 2: no doubt about that. So you have this handle that

362
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 2: is basically brass knuckles, and then the middle part of

363
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Speaker 2: this weapon is the revolver. This is the firearm. Aspect.

364
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Speaker 2: So there's a cylinder that appears to hold I'm guessing

365
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: four to five rounds of AMMO small caliber. There's an

366
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Speaker 2: exposed trigger, it has no trigger guard. It's just looks

367
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Speaker 2: like a tongue hanging from the bottom of this device.

368
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 2: And then there is a hole where you would expect

369
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Speaker 2: a barrel to be, but there's no barrel. But this

370
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Speaker 2: is where a projectile would be discharged from. This could

371
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Speaker 2: be Even though there's no barrel, this still can be

372
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Speaker 2: a fatal device if it is fired at very close.

373
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Speaker 2: Answered be no accuracy to this at all. So this

374
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Speaker 2: this is literally something that is designed for close contact

375
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Speaker 2: with the victim and then.

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Speaker 1: The very close, very very close.

377
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Speaker 2: The front of this device has what appears to be

378
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Speaker 2: a dagger like blade. It's irregular, but there's no question

379
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Speaker 2: that the the device, this weapon is designed for somebody

380
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Speaker 2: to be able to stab a victim simultaneously while stabbing

381
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Speaker 2: the victim, shooting the victim.

382
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Speaker 1: And then beating beating the shit out of him, and.

383
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Speaker 2: Then resorting to using the knuckles in the handle to

384
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Speaker 2: beat the hell out of them.

385
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Speaker 1: So it's called the Apache Revolver, and it is named

386
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Speaker 1: it's from France, it's not after the indigenous group. It

387
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Speaker 1: is after a gang in France in the eighteen hundreds

388
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Speaker 1: who is made in Belgium. And of course the major

389
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Speaker 1: complaint is exactly what she said. I just brought this

390
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 1: up for fun because I had run across it, and

391
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Speaker 1: just I thought Paul would think this is interesting. The

392
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: blade's too short. It definitely looks like something an inmate

393
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Speaker 1: at a prison took a somehow filed down like a

394
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Speaker 1: toothbrush and stuck.

395
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Speaker 2: It on me. It's like a shank. Yeah, I would

396
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 2: agree it is. It's very crude, yep, for sure.

397
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Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the more about the guy. Okay,

398
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Speaker 1: So I told you he's got several wounds that we

399
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Speaker 1: talked about. Some are deep, some aren't. Three in the

400
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: back of his head, there's a small piece of his

401
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: skull on the ground and the gravel. There is a

402
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: pool of blood that surrounds his body. He's wearing a

403
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: gold watch, and they find money in his pockets, and

404
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: they find a long bladed dagger that is hidden inside

405
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: of his clothes that nobody's taken and he appears to

406
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: have not taken out. There's also some other random stuff

407
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: along the bank's edge, there are more bloody streaks, and

408
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: at different elevations there are several other pools of blood

409
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: on the landscaping, and it seems like there was a

410
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: bloody struggle somewhere. Right, So they've got different elevations, like

411
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: he fell down and landed where he landed, and then

412
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Speaker 1: we've got some other sort of material things that are

413
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Speaker 1: important that were found around and about so far. So, Paul,

414
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Speaker 1: here's my understanding so far. Tell me if you think

415
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 1: I'm right. So we have this victim who we don't

416
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: even know who this person is yet, standing on a

417
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: cliff near the falls. He it sounds like might have

418
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 1: been pushed off the cliff, and then you think he

419
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: hit several different elevations on the way down, because there's

420
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: blood under where he landed, but there's also blood in

421
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: different elevations along this cliff side.

422
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would say that's pretty typical because in

423
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: most areas where there's these steep cliff like structures, they're

424
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: not like straight down, you know, there's outcroppings and everything else,

425
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: and so the body is naturally going to be kind

426
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: of bouncing off these various structures and incurring injuries on

427
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 2: the way down to the final impact.

428
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what the investigators say based on

429
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: what they see. So there were some streaks that led

430
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: to the river, and so they say, okay, this is

431
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: what we think happened. From the beginning, they said that

432
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: it seems like this guy got into a fight based

433
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: on bruises that were on his face, but you know,

434
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: we don't know how old the bruises are or anything

435
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: like that, that he got into a fight. That if

436
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: they think the victim got into a fight at the

437
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: top of the gorge whenever he died, if it happened

438
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: then that he was thrown over the precipice and they

439
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: were hoping that he would land in the river and

440
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: then get carried away by the rapids. But body felt,

441
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: they say, on a ledge about thirty feet below, and

442
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: then they said it rolled another fifty to sixty feet

443
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: down to a steep slope. And then they think that

444
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: the killer or killers dragged the body one hundred and

445
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: fifty feet into the river. So you imagine they're like

446
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: in you know, he or whoever the killer is, and

447
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: the victim or in this combat, the guy has a knife,

448
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: the victim has a knife, but he doesn't get it out,

449
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: he goes rolls down. The killer's like, shit, he didn't

450
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: get into the river like I wanted. So he drags

451
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: him into the river, but he didn't put him in

452
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: the right spot because he doesn't flow down the river.

453
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: So they just leave him there. He's just left there.

454
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like, I mean, lord, that's a lot of effort.

455
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: Just bury him next time. Yeah, okay, So let me

456
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: tell you about some of the little clues. I told you.

457
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: Nobody took anything from him. He's got like a gold watch,

458
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: he's got money, he's got a knife, a dagger, long

459
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: bladed dagger hidden in his clothes, So this doesn't seem

460
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: like a robbery exactly.

461
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: So you know, financial motive is not this offender's primary

462
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: mode in this this particular case. And it sounds like,

463
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: you know, what he had on his body was financially

464
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: significant for the period of time. So if this was

465
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: a robbery homicide, you would think that his body would

466
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: have been stripped of these valuables, and they're not, so

467
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 2: you know, that's very informative. Then it's like, okay, so

468
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: now the offender isn't interested in the financial aspect, which

469
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: tells me the offender is not financially destitute, right. This

470
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: is not a let's say, a homeless transient that is

471
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: looking to try to you know, just survive and find

472
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: you know, some valuables from this victim. So the offender

473
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: at least is like, well, whatever he's got is doesn't

474
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 2: matter to me at all. So robbery is out. Now.

475
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, is this vindictive? Is there you know,

476
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 2: a business relationship that went awry that is impacting the offender?

477
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: Is there a love interest, a love triangle you know

478
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: that's going on? And then that's why this man is

479
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: being killed for a variety of reasons. And I've always

480
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: said that, you know, when you listen to true crime

481
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: or watch true crime, who are the stories focused on.

482
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 2: It's on women. And why is that is because they're

483
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: innocent victims. When men get killed fast majority of time,

484
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: it's because the men have been involved with or have

485
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 2: done something stupid that got them killed. And so what

486
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 2: did our victim do that enrage somebody else to kill him?

487
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: That isn't over money. This isn't necessarily a business thing.

488
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: I mean it could be. I mean, this could be

489
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: a matter of eliminating a business partner or something like

490
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: that where you know the valuables on the victim's body

491
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: is meaningless to a former business partner. But it's also

492
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: suggestive that, Okay, our victim got himself into something and

493
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: the person or persons are willing to commit homicide for

494
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: self preservation. That's fundamentally what I'm thinking right now.

495
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: Well, lucky for us, it doesn't take long to identify

496
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: who the victim is because Rochester is a place where

497
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: people know all the prominent folks, and our victim is prominent.

498
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: His name's Charles Littles, and people in the search party

499
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: saw him and immediately knew who he was. He's twenty

500
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: five and he has a very prominent attorney in Rochester.

501
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: He's married to a woman who's nineteen. Her name's Sarah.

502
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: She comes from a big, close knit family. They've only

503
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: been married a couple of years, so immediately, I just

504
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: won't even hide this. Charles has kind of gone downhill

505
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: in the last year or so, probably since he got married.

506
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: He's been drinking a lot, and he's been having quite

507
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: a few extramarital affairs. So they said he's succumbed to vice.

508
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: He had a lot of names of women in a

509
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: diary that he kept, which probably did not make his

510
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: wife very happy. And as I said, they had only

511
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: been married for about two years. And then you know,

512
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: automatically we're talking about the inner circle. If this is

513
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: the murder, you know, we're going to have to talk

514
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: about his relationship with his wife and a little bit

515
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: more about Charles.

516
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: Right well, you know, as you quizzed me when we

517
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: did the Black Doahllia episode, and you caught me literally

518
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: out of the blue in terms of what do I

519
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: always say? And I had to think there it's like,

520
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: what do you mean? What do you mean?

521
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: You say a lot?

522
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: Well, victimology is huge, so obviously right now, you know,

523
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: so you have Charles interacting with a variety of women,

524
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: you know, and of course we know that these scenarios

525
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: can lead to homicides, so that's one potent'll set of

526
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: suspect pools or a suspect pool and then of course

527
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: that's on both sides. That's okay, So who has interest

528
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: in the women that Charles is having an affair with,

529
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: like maybe a husband or a boyfriend or a family member.

530
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: But then you have the wife Sarah, you know, and

531
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: then that whether it be Sarah or her side of

532
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: the family they find out about these affairs, that's another

533
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: suspect pool. But I also want to know, well, what

534
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: was Charles doing, you know, where was he working, you know,

535
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: what is his business arrangement everything else. I can't just say, oh,

536
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: he's having affairs, so that's why he's killed. It's something

537
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: that you have to investigatively go after. But you also

538
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: have to recognize, you know, Charles has more than just

539
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: the romantic side of his life that could possibly develop

540
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: other suspect pools that you have to investigate. Yep.

541
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: I don't think his business has gone under, and I

542
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: don't read anything about controversy with the business. Maybe he's

543
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: functioning fine, but in Sarah's eyes, he's not because she's

544
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: caught him over the past two years in three affairs,

545
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: and then she recently found out about a fourth and

546
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: she said we're divorcing, and he freaked out. And this

547
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: is you know, within the past couple of months, she

548
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: moved back in with her family, who are the Stouts,

549
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: and one of her brothers she was very close with,

550
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: is a guy named Marian Ira. He goes by Ira Stout,

551
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: and so you know, this is a very close knit family,

552
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: and Sarah has said, I am done with this man,

553
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: and they said, well, we'll take you back, don't worry

554
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: about it. So when they identify Charles Little's as the victim,

555
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: of course they immediately bring Sarah in looking at the

556
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: inner circle, and she said, I don't know what happened

557
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: to him. I know how he reacted when I said

558
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: I want a divorce. He was very jealous. And this

559
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: was you know, I think a few months ago when

560
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: this happened, she apparently started seeing another man named mister

561
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: Patterson is all she refers to him as Charles was

562
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: very very upset about this, and he's stalking her actively

563
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: in the streets. So this is confirmed by you know,

564
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: her family and other people people who knew them. And

565
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: he was very aggravated by mister Patterson in this relationship.

566
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: And on the night of the murder, Sarah had visited

567
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: a dressmaker, and you know, she and her brother were

568
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: there hanging out around town. Basically they were each other's

569
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: alibi because the police are saying, your husband's been murdered,

570
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: where were you? And so they're really homing in on

571
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: her because and now talk about this too. She but

572
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: she is the one you would think would be dead

573
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: on a riverbank because she is the one who said

574
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: I want a divorce. And we know in abusive or

575
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: controlling relationships, particularly something driven you know, by a drugs

576
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: or alcohol, the most dangerous time for a woman is

577
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: when she says I'm leaving you. And so that's what

578
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: I was a little I was thinking, Wow, okay, but

579
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: he's the dead one.

580
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that's that's true for a vast

581
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: majority of cases, but there are cases where the women

582
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 2: end up acting out and they either they themselves commit

583
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: the homicide or they convince somebody else to do it.

584
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 2: So you have to be aware of that as a possibility.

585
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 2: So you know that this is where now you get

586
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: into the weeds in terms of Okay, Sarah, you know,

587
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 2: let's let's go over your timeline. Where were you? Sarah

588
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: is not the one that is beating him up and

589
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: throwing him over a cliff?

590
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: What you don't think?

591
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 2: So, no, you don't unless you tell me. Sarah six

592
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: foot five, two hundred and forty pounds, and you know,

593
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 2: former BJJ athlete, you know in all likelihood she's not

594
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: the one doing this, you know, and so she would

595
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: have an accomplice or multiple accomplices that are you know,

596
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: physically capable of doing this to Charles. And so that's

597
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: where you start, you know, setting up. You have to

598
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: get her timeline, you have to get her alibi. You

599
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: have to figure out her social circles. You have to

600
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: figure out who she's communicating with. Could she potentially have

601
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: arranged this or could you know, somebody that is a

602
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: confidant of Sarah have arranged it or committed the crime themselves.

603
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: You know, maybe this mister Patterson, you know, he's wanting

604
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: to eliminate to this jealous soon to be ex Charles,

605
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 2: right because he wants to have a life with Sarah

606
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: that's unencumbered by you know this in essence, this almost

607
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: like a stalker that Charles is turning into this jealous guy.

608
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me remind you of the alibis of

609
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: these two people. So it's Sarah and her brother. And

610
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: this is not even at the beginning the questioning people

611
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: around town about Sarah. Because not only is Charles a cheater,

612
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: but he goes to something I didn't know existed in

613
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: the eighteen fifties, free love meetings.

614
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: You know, I think any act of participant within this

615
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: group would be unlikely to be a suspect just based

616
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 2: off of let's say charles involvement, right, because you know, okay,

617
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: this is we all agree, there's consent, and we're going

618
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 2: to sexually interact with different members of this group. That's

619
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: the normal thought process of this group. Now, somebody in

620
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: this group could ultimately have had a bad experience with Charles,

621
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 2: or there could have been some sort of jealousy that

622
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: develops as a result. Maybe Charles chose to interact with

623
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: maybe another woman than the woman who was hoping to

624
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 2: interact with Charles, and now he's upset. I mean, there's

625
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: all sorts of dynamics that potentially could go on. But

626
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: you could also have individuals that are participating in this group,

627
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: whether men or women, in which they're let's say their

628
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: spouse is not a believer in this group or its

629
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 2: philosophies and finds out, you know, you have oh you know,

630
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 2: my wife interacted with this Charles at this free love meeting,

631
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: you know, and now you have this jealous rage that

632
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: that occurs. Charles as a victim is complicated. You know,

633
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 2: there's at least from the sexual romantic side, there's you know,

634
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: multiple pools of potential suspects. Now, I don't think you

635
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: haven't told me what Charles did.

636
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: I don't think he's a He was a very prominent

637
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: attorney in Rochester, well known. So Charles specialized in insurance claims.

638
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: That's the kind of law that he practiced. But he

639
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: was so described as a ne'er do well lawyer in

640
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: that he specifically dealt with insurance claims. And I don't know,

641
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe he just didn't make a lot of

642
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: money or ripped people off, or it was kind of like,

643
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 1: you know, considered sleazy practice, but that's what he was.

644
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: You know, just Charles being an attorney. We know attorneys

645
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: are dealing with adversarial scenarios all the time. And so

646
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: now that's another potential aspect to Charles victimology that you

647
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: have to pay attention to. He's got the extramarital affairs,

648
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: the sexual interactions, the free love side, but then you

649
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: also have this business side where you go, Okay, you

650
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: have to take a look at, you know, what cases

651
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: has he been involved with, And you can't just go, oh, recently,

652
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 2: because you can have somebody that you know years ago.

653
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 2: You know, Charles is only twenty five, so it wouldn't

654
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: go back that far, you know, but basically from the

655
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: beginning of his practice. Okay, so what cases was he

656
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: involved with? And as possible that you could have somebody

657
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: who thought he was an absolute asshole that did them

658
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: wrong and now they're coming back after him. Yeah, so

659
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: that's another suspect pool that you have to look at.

660
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: It's growing, Yeah, it is, so.

661
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: It is. And Ira hates him. Her brother, Sarah's brother,

662
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: hates him. He thinks he's disgusting. He said that I've

663
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: been with my sister the whole time that night. I

664
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: remind you, they were in a dressmaker's shop, Mary Ferrell.

665
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: We'll hear from her later, and then they just kind

666
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: of walked around the town until it got dark. So

667
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: let me tell you a little bit because the police

668
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: are really humming in on Ira because Ira and his dad,

669
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: so Sarah's father had been in state prison for the

670
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: past five years. So they were in prison on charges

671
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: of forgery and counterfeiting bank bills, burglary, and arson. So

672
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 1: remember the bank bills they told you back then in

673
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. Oftentimes, because there was no federal reserve,

674
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 1: oftentimes banks would print their own bills. It really did

675
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: make counterfeiting easier. They were counterfeiting and burglary and arson

676
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: because Ira had good penmanship. It sounds like he had

677
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: become entangled in his father's criminal business because he was

678
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: able to do these forgeries starting when he was fourteen.

679
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: He was only eighteen when he went into prison, and

680
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: he was there for four and a half years in

681
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: solitary confinement. But at this point, until the police discover it,

682
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: the only people who know anything about IRA's background is Charles.

683
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: So it's the Stouts and Charles and that's it. And

684
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: Ira comes out of prison wanting to start a clean slate,

685
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: and he hates Charles. And Sara's divorcing Charles, so there

686
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: is a lot happening with Charles, and to write a

687
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: lot of different avenues just even with these two people.

688
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so with a divorce, now Charles, who has knowledge

689
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 2: on Ira and IRA's and Sarah's father, You know, he's

690
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 2: somewhat of a wild card, you know, is it possible

691
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 2: just for the mere fact that he knows their history

692
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 2: that potentially they decide he's no longer part of the family.

693
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: We can't control them, We can't control who he's going

694
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: to talk to about them and their past, which could

695
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: impact their future and whatever their their ambitions were. So

696
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: is this strictly an elimination of Charles in order to

697
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: you know, in essence, get rid of this wild card.

698
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: So they actually are able to control and containerize who

699
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: knows about their past?

700
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 1: Another little interesting something. And I have mixed feelings about

701
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: this because I don't have enough evidence. So Ira and

702
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: Sarah were very close, right, she's not teen, he's twenty two.

703
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: When they both moved back into the family house. They

704
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: sleep in the same bed. So on one hand, this

705
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: is not uncommon in the eighteen hundreds because communal sleeping

706
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: is what it would have been called, was incredibly common

707
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 1: with siblings, usually younger siblings. And of course we're talking

708
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: about families that aren't very wealthy. They don't have a

709
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: lot of space. Sometimes they would squeeze a bunch of

710
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: kids in a bed at the same time, and the

711
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: girls would go against the wall. The boys would be

712
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: more on the edge. But adult siblings number one were

713
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: not so sure. There's and I will tell you if

714
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties, people are shit ter chattering about

715
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: the fact that this could have been a sexual relationship

716
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: between the brother and their sister, then it was more

717
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: than just you know, siblings sleeping in the same bed innocently,

718
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: I think, but I don't have enough information. That's just

719
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: more information out there that probably they wouldn't have gotten

720
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 1: wanted to get out. Also, you know, now you got

721
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: your hands behind your head. I don't know if I've

722
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: ever seen.

723
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: You in that. Brother, Well, I think this is a

724
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: you know, this is somewhat of a psychologically complicated scenario.

725
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: So I would imagine so Ira and Sarah, let's say

726
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 2: there's an incestuous relationship between this brother and sister. I

727
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: don't have any experience dealing with this type of psychology.

728
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: I am just now kind of you know, talking off

729
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 2: the top of my head. But I would suspect that

730
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: this isn't like some deep romantic love relationship. This is

731
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: a physical relationship as a matter of convenience. So when

732
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: Sarah ends up dating and ultimately marrying Charles, my suspicion,

733
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: and again this is just speculation, is that Ira is

734
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 2: not going to develop the same level of jealousy as

735
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: if it had been a true boyfriend or a husband

736
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: type relationship. You know, So I kind of put less

737
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: weight in terms of motive for Ira to go after Charles,

738
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: just merely as a result of Charles is now in

739
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: a relationship with a sister that he's having sex with.

740
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: But I don't know, you know, that's that's that's an

741
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: interesting dynamic that I have no experience with.

742
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 1: Well, let's continue on. It ends up coming up later.

743
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: Now we need to talk about actual evidence, because the

744
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 1: police are homing in on these two people for a reason.

745
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: Besides the fact of all the crap that's happening, you know,

746
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: within this family and involving Charles. A couple of things.

747
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: There are some items that were left on the shore

748
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: where it sounds like there was some dragging into the

749
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 1: water then it doesn't work and out of the water.

750
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: So there's a pair of glasses. There is a black

751
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: velvet rosette from a woman's hat this sounds terrible up,

752
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: a piece of Russian squirrel tail that could have been

753
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: part of a wrap from a woman of course who combs,

754
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: and the arm of an office chair are scattered amongst

755
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: the burdock plants, which I think are just adorable plants

756
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: and will pop up later too. So there are all

757
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: these random items a lot of which seem to be

758
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: from a woman near his body.

759
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: You know, I would say, you know, of course it's

760
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: going to be you know, judging the relevance of these

761
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: items to the crime scene. You know, And this is

762
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 2: a very nebulous skill set. I've been out to so

763
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: many crime scenes where you've got all sorts of just

764
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 2: let's say, call it trash debris, and it's like, well,

765
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: what's related, what's not related? You know, So that's that's

766
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: going to be the complexity of dealing with these particular items,

767
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 2: the glasses, a black velvet rosette, to Russian.

768
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: Squirrel something or other.

769
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: Rap something ye rap, you know. Like my thought is

770
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: a woman didn't do this to Charles. Now, women could

771
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 2: have been present, but then why are all these items

772
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 2: being left behind if she's not the one in combat

773
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: with Charles. So let's say, if these items are related,

774
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: I would say, this sounds like staging. Somebody's trying to

775
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: set up a woman, maybe Sarah, as the responsible by

776
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: depositing these items at this crime scene.

777
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: Okay, let's continue on. Let's talk about injuries, because this

778
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: is why I would say this is probably the main

779
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: reason besides all the background, but in this marriage. Why

780
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: the police chief whose name is Oviate, Why police chief

781
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: Oviate is saying, hmm. Both Ira and his sister Sarah

782
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: are injured, and they say, oh, it happened on Galusha Street,

783
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: which is where I believe the dressmaker was. They visited

784
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: the night that Charles was murdered. So this is what

785
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: happened with her. She has a broken left wrist and

786
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: she says that she got it from tripping over a

787
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: hole on the sidewalk or like a loose plank somewhere.

788
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: He has a broken left arm, and he said he

789
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: was he had his hands in his pockets and he

790
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: was running and of course, you know, fell and he

791
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: also lost his glasses. They have not presented the glasses

792
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: from the crime scene to Ira, but he said, I

793
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: normally wear glasses. I don't have them. And now we

794
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: have doctors who come in and they want to examine them.

795
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: So we've got two doctors who examined Sarah. There are

796
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: abrasions and bruises on the inside of her right forearm.

797
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: There's you know, both under her chin, on the left

798
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: side of her chest below the clavicle, on her left

799
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: leg above the ankle, and on the outside of her

800
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: left knee and on the outside of her right knee.

801
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: Both of her eyes are black and swollen. And when

802
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: she takes off her bonnet, they notice that there are

803
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: burdock burrs tangled in her hair. Do you remember I

804
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: talked about burdock burrs. No, there are plants down there

805
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: where his body was, and they're called burdocks. And I

806
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: know what they are because I find them so interesting.

807
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,959
Speaker 1: They're prickly, they have little hooks covering them, things stick

808
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: to them, and they were actually the inspiration for Velcrow.

809
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, that's cool.

810
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: So they are not on the street where the dressmaker

811
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: is anywhere. They are only from as far as people know,

812
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: on the river bank. So they're trying to say these

813
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: people are injured. Ira here has lost his glasses and

814
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: Sarah has burrs in her hair that are not around town.

815
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: They're down at the riverbed.

816
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

817
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if a woman's being set up here.

818
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 1: I think a woman's involved here.

819
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I'm now changing my opinion on that is okay, Yeah,

820
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 2: Now this is I mean, the extent of Sarah's injuries.

821
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: I don't believe these are her, you know, falling down

822
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 2: and she's breaking her wrist, and she's got two black

823
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: eyes and all these abrasions all over her body. And

824
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: her brother has all his injuries, and he's missing glasses.

825
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: And we have glasses that are found at the crime scene,

826
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: and right now we don't know if those match IRA's

827
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 2: glasses are not, but I'm now going, okay, you know

828
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: what it looks like Charles was ambushed by Ira and

829
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 2: Sarah at this location. Yep.

830
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: And then we've got the dress maker who saw them,

831
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: and actually this helps with our timeline a little bit.

832
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: She saw Ira and Sarah in her shop, she says.

833
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: This dressmaker says that Sarah was wearing a pair of

834
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 1: black rosettes in her hair. And you'll remember that it

835
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: was one black velvet rosett from a woman's hat was

836
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: found at the scene. So I don't know if that

837
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: helps with the timeline. It sounds like, if Sarah's the

838
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: one who's involved with this, that she saw the dressmaker

839
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: before all this happened, you know, at the river's edge,

840
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: although everybody wore rosettes, who knows, I don't know.

841
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 2: These are clues, right, so, you know, this is where

842
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 2: the investigation has to narrow and literally focus in on

843
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 2: Sarah and Ira. Separate them, interview them separately, you know,

844
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 2: get statements, reinterview them. I mean, in this day and age,

845
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 2: I would say, take written statements, give me your timelines,

846
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: you know, and then start looking for inconsistencies where it's like, oh,

847
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 2: these two are not telling the truth, you know. And

848
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 2: then of course, you know, this type of evidence at

849
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 2: the crime scene. In this day and age, we can

850
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 2: pursue with modern technology to try to determine are those

851
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: rosettes you know Sarah's are those glasses iras? You know?

852
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we got iras DNA off of the let's

853
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 2: say the you know, the nose pieces on the glass frames.

854
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 2: You know, it becomes easy, you know. So you know,

855
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 2: now things are getting into Okay, Sarah and Ira are

856
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 2: now prime suspects. And even though, as I've said before,

857
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 2: you don't have to prove motive, but now is why,

858
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: you know, can can we determine the why? Especially in

859
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 2: the eighteen fifties with all this evidence, you know, in

860
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: the circumstances, they probably could prosecute with what you've told me.

861
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: But now it's like, okay, why, what is the reason

862
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: for Sarah and Ira to kill Charles. Is it just

863
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 2: because those two had an incestuous relationship and Sarah's wanting

864
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: to divorce and Ira was jealous, or is there something

865
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 2: else going on?

866
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: Well, I think the stalking is a big part of it.

867
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: It sounds like Charles was stalking Sarah because of this

868
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: mister Patterson, And it sounds like making threats also in

869
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,439
Speaker 1: remembera Paul, he's carrying a long blade. I mean, he's

870
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: got a weapon on him that it doesn't sound like

871
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: he was able to pull out in time if this

872
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: is a real fight. So I think that that could

873
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: be one of the directions they're heading down right now.

874
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: It sounds like Charles was just kind of unhinged in

875
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 1: general and drinking all the time.

876
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, Well, you know, you know, and part

877
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: of the commission of this crime is is how do

878
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: these parties convene at the waterfalls? You know, what kind

879
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: of communication occurred? Would Charles normally go here? And of

880
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 2: course you know, Sarah and Ira maybe know his patterns

881
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: and they go this is the perfect location. Did they

882
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 2: follow him? Did he have somebody with him? Maybe he's

883
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 2: got a lady friend that he's taken out there to

884
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: overlook the waterfalls, and then Ira and Sarah, you know,

885
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: take advantage of this isolation. So that's that's going to

886
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: be part of Can we establish how the offenders and

887
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 2: the victim convened at the homicide location?

888
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: Okay, let's move through this because there's more evidence. They

889
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: go to Sarah's house and they find I mean, nobody

890
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,919
Speaker 1: knows how to dispose of anything in this story. They

891
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: find her skirt covered in burdock burs and there's broken

892
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: jewelry in her pockets. There is one rosette, presumably because

893
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: the other one's on the river bank. They find that

894
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: Russian squirrel tail for a wrap and it's missing a panel,

895
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: so you know. There's also a recently washed, blood stained

896
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: piece of clothing. So the kids don't know anything. She

897
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: and Ira have a ten year old sister. They have

898
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: a twenty five year old brother. They've got the brother's wife,

899
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: and everybody's questioned and the mom is too. I think

900
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: the dad might still be in prison. So they question

901
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 1: the mom and mark It says, oh, this was clothing

902
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,919
Speaker 1: that got bloody a few days ago, and I washed

903
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: it Friday night, not last night though, when all of

904
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: this stuff happened. And so you know that is that

905
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: they have all of this evidence that matches to whatever

906
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: is found down below, is what they say. So this

907
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: is enough to get them indicted. So they're indicted December

908
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: twenty third, and Ira enters a plea first, so they're

909
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: tried separately, and this takes a long time. I'm a

910
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: little surprised. So you know, they're indicted on December twenty

911
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,439
Speaker 1: third of fifty seven, and he doesn't go on trial

912
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: until April of fifty eight. And we've had things go

913
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: on trial within three days before and in this time period,

914
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 1: so they must have really been trying to build a case.

915
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: So right now, tell me about the case that they have.

916
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: Is this considered circumstantial at this point? I mean, the

917
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 1: stuff at the scene matches the stuff in her house,

918
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: and there's these injuries. Is that enough these days?

919
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the items that are found at the

920
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 2: crime scene our physical evidence, and if they are truly matching,

921
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 2: I think, most notably the squirrel wrap missing a panel,

922
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 2: there's going to be ways. And in the eighteen fifties,

923
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how sophisticated they were in what we

924
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 2: would call a physical match, you know, but you know,

925
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: most certainly during the course of my career in criminalistics,

926
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: there are ways in which we would be able to show, yes,

927
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 2: this piece of the rap from the crime scene, absolutely,

928
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 2: I mean it's unique, was part of this other piece

929
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 2: that belonged to Sarah. You know. So there's going to

930
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 2: be physical evidence that is being presented at trial that

931
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: is linking Sarah to these items at the crime scene

932
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: based off of what you told me. Now, the defense

933
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 2: is going to be, well, that doesn't place her at

934
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 2: the crime scene. You know, these are things you know,

935
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 2: somebody else could have put out there. But that's you know,

936
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: something the jury's going to weigh what do they believe

937
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 2: and not believe about that set of circumstances. I still

938
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 2: come back to iris glasses, you know, and are they

939
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 2: able to you know, show that these are actually iris

940
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 2: glasses you know where there maybe an optometrist marks on

941
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: there that you know, there's file records to show that

942
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 2: you know that these were iras. Uh you know, of

943
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 2: course we're in the day before fingerprints or DNA to

944
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 2: be able to you know, show that these are actually iras.

945
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 2: You know, so you'd be looking at, well, they match

946
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 2: the description of the glasses that people have seen IRA wearing,

947
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,240
Speaker 2: So you know, there's circumstances and there is physical evidence,

948
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 2: so there is some strength to this case for sure,

949
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 2: but there's I think, you know, there is maybe legitimate

950
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 2: defense news that could minimize both aspects of this particular case.

951
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily conclusive, but it's you know, relative to

952
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 2: some of the other episodes which were purely circumstantial. And

953
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 2: I'm going, I don't think they've got enough here. I'm going, yeah,

954
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 2: I could see where you know, they have enough to

955
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 2: pursue this. It's going to be how you know, how

956
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 2: rigorous is the defense and how successful the defense is

957
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 2: in front of the jury.

958
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the way this goes is really interesting. And

959
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to use what happens at the trial because

960
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: Ira does go to trial. I'm going to tell you

961
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: kind of the blockbuster thing that happens at the trial

962
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: to understand why he does what he does. Initially, Okay,

963
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: first of all, we're looking at manslaughter. His defense says,

964
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: you can be convicted of manslaughter, you could be convicted

965
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: of first degree murder. And let me just tell you

966
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: about the punishments. I did not know some of this.

967
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: So what used to be a very popular punishment was branding,

968
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: actually branding someone sole knew what they did. This was

969
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: usually for maybe thieving or you know, second time offenders

970
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: of you know, petty thieving, that kind of thing. Now

971
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: they were throwing everybody in prison for every good reason.

972
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: So when the trial comes up, I believe that Ira

973
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 1: knew that there was going to be someone testifying against

974
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: him that was going to be really bad news for him.

975
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: So Ira says I did kill Charles, and he says

976
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: it was not premeditated. It needs to be manslaughter, and

977
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: manslaughter would have been I mean, he's only twenty two.

978
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: I think it would have been ten years. Maybe he

979
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 1: probably could have gotten out earlier too, although you know,

980
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: he had already been in prison to begin with. So

981
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: I was I want to explain why he said I

982
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: did it, but it was not premeditated in any way

983
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: before I tell you what ends up happening. Does that

984
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:53,439
Speaker 1: make sense?

985
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 2: No? No, for sure, you know, because at least in California,

986
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 2: you know, man slaughter voluntary versus involuntary versus second to

987
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 2: first degree murder. You know, this is where now it

988
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 2: does come down to, you know, intent actions, you know,

989
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 2: various planning, the various types of things that potentially, you know,

990
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 2: the weapons that you brought to the scene versus circumstances

991
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 2: beyond your control, but you committed certain crimes that contribute

992
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 2: it to somebody's death. For Ira to say, or his

993
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: attorneys to say, well, this is manslaughter, I'm immediately skeptical

994
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: because this is pretty typical. You know. It's it's like,

995
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 2: you know, the defense is always going to be we

996
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:44,479
Speaker 2: don't want murder here, we want manslaughter. It's a far

997
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 2: less serious crime and far less in terms of sentencing,

998
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 2: so they always throw that out. And then of course,

999
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 2: you know, this is where the you know, the courts go. No,

1000
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: you know, this is you know, the murder charges appropriate.

1001
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: We're going to you know, proceed with that versus you know,

1002
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: could it be manslaughter, but you know, are there true

1003
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 2: circumstances you know that can be proven that it is

1004
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: manslaughter versus murder. IRA's admitting to killing Charles, you know,

1005
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 2: so now we've got him locked in. He's responsible. I

1006
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 2: don't know what Sarah's role is with that admission, but

1007
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 2: we know that Ira is saying, yes, I killed Charles,

1008
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 2: but it was not premeditated. Okay, well, let's hear the circumstances.

1009
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: So the key witness here, besides all of the circumstantial stuff,

1010
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, the key and the fact that Ira has

1011
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: shown incredible contempt toward Charles to begin with, you know,

1012
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: saying how he's cheating on my sister and all of

1013
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 1: this stuff. The key witness here is Mom. So she

1014
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: flips and Margaret Stout says that the night of the

1015
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 1: murder that Ira and Sarah came home, they were both

1016
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: covered in blood. Ira said, I beat him to death

1017
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: and you know, killed him and shoved him over the edge.

1018
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: And the next day Margaret went to falls Field and

1019
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: got Sarah's broach in IRA's cap from the crime scene,

1020
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: left everything else. It would have been helpful for her

1021
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: to take all the other stuff too. That maybe they

1022
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it was a knight. Who knows, But

1023
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: Mom says, this all happened. I'm pretty sure Ira would

1024
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: have known that that was what was going to happen,

1025
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: and that's why he was doing what you're saying, you know,

1026
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: which is trying to mitigate and say, okay, well I

1027
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: don't want to die. And he had already been in

1028
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: solitary confinement and said it was awful, you know.

1029
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 2: Sure you know. But IRA's mom is saying, well, he

1030
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 2: admitted to beating Charles to death. This is not sounding

1031
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: like manslaughter to me. This is sounding like second degree

1032
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 2: murder if it's in the heat of the moment versus

1033
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 2: pre planning. So how did he beat him to death?

1034
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 2: How to get him out there exactly? Why? How did

1035
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 2: they isolate him out to this particular location? And then

1036
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 2: of course you got the body disposal, trying to hide

1037
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 2: the crime and everything else. Right now, I am not

1038
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 2: buying manslaughter with this set of circumstances. I'm now going,

1039
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 2: is this first first a second degree murder under California statutes?

1040
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you how this ends up going,

1041
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: because I don't think mom knows whether or not this

1042
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: was premeditated, whether or not they drew him out there,

1043
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: they followed him, or he followed them and they were

1044
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 1: defending themselves. She just knows both her kids came home

1045
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 1: totally covered in blood. Now they hear this, and the

1046
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: trial is a very lengthy nine days. I was impressed

1047
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,479
Speaker 1: by that were used to two day trials. He's found

1048
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: guilty at first degree murder and he's sentenced to hang.

1049
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: Now he appeals, and what's interesting about Ira is you know,

1050
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: he is kind of an academic. He is a Republican,

1051
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: which the Republicans back there were abolitionists. They are you know,

1052
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: anti slavery, they were anti capital punishment. So people knew that.

1053
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: So listen to this. This is what I think is incredible.

1054
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: He talks to some of his friends, who talk to

1055
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: some of their important friends, trying to get the governor

1056
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: to commute his sentence to life imprisonment. So listen, who

1057
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: comes to his defense. Frederick Douglas. Oh wow, in Susan b. Anthony.

1058
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: Frederick Douglas lived in Rochester. These two people hold an

1059
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 1: anti capital punishment rally at City Hall in Rochester on

1060
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: October eighth. So he was sentenced in April six or

1061
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 1: seven months later. Okay, seventeen hundred people show up, and

1062
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 1: Frederick Douglas stands up and says, we cannot execute this guy.

1063
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: Whether he's guilty or not. There should never be a

1064
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 1: death penalty. This is not the Christian principle of love.

1065
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 1: Any argument you can think of, And so you know,

1066
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 1: you've got these two really prominent people not coming necessarily

1067
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: to Ira, saying this is an amazing man. Let's save

1068
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: his life. It is like, nobody should be put to death.

1069
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 1: But that's a lot of power to have on your side.

1070
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in this is where you have the case,

1071
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 2: you have the justice system with the defendant and the

1072
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 2: sentencing and everything else. That's that's one thing that's sort

1073
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 2: of this isolated aspect. And then when you have Frederick

1074
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 2: Douglass and Susan B. Anthony and everybody else that has

1075
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 2: this philosophy, Now, this is a societal issue. This is

1076
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 2: outside of the justice system, right. This is now where

1077
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 2: you have people who have different life philosophies that are debating,

1078
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 2: protesting and everything else. And then ultimately that's how legislation occurs.

1079
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 2: Are we going to enact laws because our populace wants X? Right?

1080
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 2: So this is you know, when I listen to what

1081
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 2: you just told me, I mean it's like wow, you know,

1082
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 2: I mean, these are some heavyweight, notable historical figures, but

1083
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with whether or not Ira

1084
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 2: receive the proper sentence for the crime. And you know,

1085
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 2: right now you said he was convicted of a first

1086
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: degree murder in New York. I'm not sure how that

1087
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 2: equates the first degree murder in California, but if I'm thinking,

1088
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 2: if it's similar, then it's like, Okay, Now that is

1089
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 2: showing premeditation, That is showing a variety of different sets

1090
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 2: of circumstances that Ira enacted in order to commit this crime.

1091
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 2: That separates it from being a in the heat moment

1092
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 2: type of homicide. This was pre planned, it was intentional.

1093
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 2: And so yes, he is guilty of absolute murder. You know,

1094
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 2: I'm not going to debate, you know, should he receive

1095
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 2: death versus life without parole or whatever else. But it's

1096
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 2: telling me the jury felt that, Yep, what Ira and

1097
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 2: or Sarah did was more than Oh, they bumped into

1098
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 2: Charles on the street. Coincidentally, they get into a heated argument,

1099
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 2: and now Ira goes off because of the emotional flare

1100
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 2: up that occurs in that circumstances that technically would be

1101
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 2: more of a second degree murder type of scenario versus, Oh, hey, Charles,

1102
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 2: we got a deal for you. Why don't you come

1103
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 2: out to the waterfalls and we'll discuss it with you.

1104
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 2: Next thing you know, IRA's on top of him with

1105
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 2: brass knuckles, beating the hell out of him and pushing

1106
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 2: his body over a cliff. Yep, that's first degree murder.

1107
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 1: Well, I think that the governor looked at this case

1108
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: the same way you did. He does not get a

1109
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 1: stay of execution or you know, commuting his sentence to

1110
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: life imprisonment. He's due to be executed on October twenty second.

1111
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 1: So what I love it that that people did this

1112
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds. They often wanted to write their

1113
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: own story. They wanted to have their own narrative out there.

1114
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 1: And so there is what's called a pamphlet kind of

1115
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: of Iris side of the story. It's called the Last

1116
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 1: Writing of Marion Iris Stout. And so I'm just going

1117
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: to shorthand this. He says, I hated Charles before she

1118
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: married him. His sister was mild and pure and innocent,

1119
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 1: but Charles was participating in drunk orgies. He abused Sarah

1120
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: in the most disgusting manner, which you know, I mean,

1121
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 1: we can make assumptions. He clarifies, actually coming down here saying.

1122
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: He clarifies by saying, also, a man who abuses a

1123
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,120
Speaker 1: pure and beautiful woman, a man who will strike her

1124
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 1: and disease her. From the bottom of my heart, he

1125
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: has not fit to live. I apologize for nothing. So

1126
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 1: he is not saying Sarah is involved in any way.

1127
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: He is saying I killed him. The amount of time

1128
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: that he spent in solitary confinement, which was years, several

1129
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: years as a young man created you know. I mean,

1130
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 1: you can imagine kind of a hardened hatred, and you know,

1131
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: he came out and found out what a horrible person

1132
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 1: Charles was because Charles and Sarah got married in the

1133
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: middle of IRA's prison sentence, so I don't even know

1134
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 1: if he met Charles before Sarah married him. He gets

1135
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 1: out and he finds out what a terrible person that

1136
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: Charles is, and he says, I have absolutely no remorse whatsoever,

1137
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: and he kind of blames a third person who really

1138
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. But that's basically it. He tries to take

1139
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: his own life several times before execution. It doesn't work.

1140
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 1: The governor, who's John King, you know, just finally says

1141
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: you're going to be executed. There's no stay of execution

1142
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: in any way, and so Ira is executed on October

1143
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 1: twenty second, eighteen fifty eight. Now, I don't know if

1144
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: you want to comment on all the stuff I said

1145
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: before about his motivation, his anger, all of that, but

1146
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: I do have an interesting caveat to happens at the

1147
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 1: execution and then we still have Sarah.

1148
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, at least with what I'm hearing about Ira,

1149
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: you know, in some ways, what he's doing is he's

1150
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:16,799
Speaker 2: trying to take on this good Samaritan position. I killed

1151
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 2: Charles because of what Charles was doing to Sarah. And

1152
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 2: there may be truth to that, you know. I mean,

1153
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 2: he's talking about Charles. Was it sounds like Charles is

1154
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 2: physically abusing Sarah. He says he gave Sarah like a disease,

1155
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 2: which I'm assuming is maybe a sexually transmitted disease because

1156
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 2: of Charles, you know, indiscretions with other women, you know,

1157
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 2: So there's a certain this is justified in IRA's mind

1158
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 2: as to why he killed Charles. Now, when I think

1159
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 2: about the crime scene and the number of items from

1160
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,839
Speaker 2: Sarah that are left at the crime scene, as well

1161
01:09:55,920 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 2: as Sarah's mom saying she washed Boody clothing of Sarah's afterwards,

1162
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 2: So now it's okay, So did Sarah participate in the

1163
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:12,640
Speaker 2: violence on Charles or was she trying to intercede and

1164
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 2: prevent Ira from doing what he did, Because even though

1165
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 2: she's trying to divorce Charles. She has she has an

1166
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 2: emotional connection to Charles. So what is you know, is

1167
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 2: Sarah committing a homicide or is Sarah is the evidence

1168
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 2: of Sarah at the crime scene as a result of

1169
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 2: her trying to save Charles from Ira. But then once

1170
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 2: Charles is done, it's family sticks together.

1171
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: And Ira never implicates Sarah at all. He refuses to

1172
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 1: say anything.

1173
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:48,120
Speaker 2: He's protecting his sister. You know, there's a family dynamic here,

1174
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,799
Speaker 2: you know, So that's I am so skeptical of that position.

1175
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:55,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a family dynamic that doesn't include Margaret,

1176
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 1: who threw them both under the bus. Say they both

1177
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: came home covered in boys she turned pretty quickly.

1178
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 2: True, that's true.

1179
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 1: So they do. And we've probably talked about this before,

1180
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: but I've had a lot of cases, including the Edward Ruloff.

1181
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:11,480
Speaker 1: You know, one of my books had the jerk up method.

1182
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: So the long drop is, you know, wh when they're

1183
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: hanging someone in execution, the floor comes out and they

1184
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 1: drop down. The jerk up method is something they used

1185
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds where they would jerk you up

1186
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 1: and there would be a counterweight that drops, and it

1187
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: almost never worked. It strangled you and that's what happened

1188
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: to Ira. So it took him I think they said

1189
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and he died of strangulation. And they still

1190
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 1: continued to do this for decades and decades until they

1191
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: finally said maybe this is inhumane and ended up with

1192
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 1: a long drop instead. So that was his ending.

1193
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 2: Here, hangings are brutal, no.

1194
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 1: Sarah goes on trial a few months before IRA's executed.

1195
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:56,559
Speaker 1: Sarah pleads guilty, but to manslaughter in the second degree,

1196
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 1: and she blames Ira. She said he planned it, he

1197
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 1: did the execution. I was there and I don't know

1198
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 1: what was going to happen. But she sentenced to seven

1199
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 1: years in prison. It sing sing. So after Ira is executed,

1200
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: Sarah writes her own little pamphlet, her own confession, and

1201
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 1: she explains things and so tell me what you think

1202
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 1: about this. So she calls it the falls Field tragedy

1203
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 1: exclamation point. So she admits to being at the murder scene,

1204
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 1: of course, because they have all that evidence. But she

1205
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 1: says she had not known that Irah was going to

1206
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: do this. He told her that he was on he

1207
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: was going to cure quote unquote Charles of his jealous

1208
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 1: and abusive behavior and so she said, I didn't know

1209
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: what he was going to do. If he was just

1210
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: going to beat him up and tell him to stop

1211
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: stalking me and hurting me. But she said, I didn't

1212
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 1: know he was going to do this. So this is

1213
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:54,880
Speaker 1: the most information we have about what actually happened. She

1214
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 1: said that on the day of the murder, Ira told Charles,

1215
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: you need to come out out. Your wife is going

1216
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: to see the man that she's dating, and you need

1217
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: to intervene in some way, which, of course Charles flipped out.

1218
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,679
Speaker 1: He hates mister Patterson. This is of course a lie.

1219
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: And what Ira, apparently according to Sarah, wanted was for

1220
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 1: Charles to step out on that rickety bridge where the

1221
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 1: other guy fell Nathan fell, and then you know, he

1222
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 1: was going to push him off and then it would

1223
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: look like an accident, which is exactly what happened with

1224
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 1: the other guy. Instead, she said that he did not

1225
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:34,680
Speaker 1: cross the bridge, so Ira kind of met him at

1226
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 1: the beginning and pulled out a hammer, and that's where

1227
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,800
Speaker 1: he beat him, and then he threw his corpse from

1228
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 1: the bridge, and that's when the whole thing, the you know,

1229
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 1: the different levels happened. So he and Sarah now Sarah

1230
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: does say this. They both got, of course, really freaked out,

1231
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 1: and they tried to climb down the precipice to the

1232
01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:59,840
Speaker 1: ledge where his body had landed, and they both fell.

1233
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure Sarah is not wearing clothing for climbing, and

1234
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:06,480
Speaker 1: that's how Ira broke his arm and she broke her wrist.

1235
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,679
Speaker 1: And you know, once they got home, the mom helped

1236
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 1: them get rid of the evidence, and she threw IRA's

1237
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:18,120
Speaker 1: cap and Sarah's hat and the hammer into the outhouse

1238
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:20,800
Speaker 1: vault and then they find this stuff. I was going

1239
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:22,360
Speaker 1: to show the hammer. It's not a big deal, but

1240
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 1: it's a thirteen inch cast hammer and they find it

1241
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,559
Speaker 1: in the outhouse and it is broken on one side,

1242
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 1: four inches long crack and two inches in diameter and

1243
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 1: has jagged edges. And they had thought that there was

1244
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,240
Speaker 1: some sort of like a tool that maybe had been

1245
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 1: used in beating him with prongs and stuff like that,

1246
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 1: but she says that this is the hammer. Does that

1247
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 1: make sense makes sense to me?

1248
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 2: Well, it's consistent with the crime scene details.

1249
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:54,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, but not her whether she was involved or I mean,

1250
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 1: do you believe when she says, I don't think he

1251
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: was going to kill him?

1252
01:14:57,120 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 2: Well, she is making an admission with what I heard

1253
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 2: that Ira may have told her, Hey, I'm going to

1254
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 2: get him to walk out onto the bridge and then

1255
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:09,840
Speaker 2: he's going to fall off. You know. So she went

1256
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:14,720
Speaker 2: into this with a knowledge that Charles may not survive

1257
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 2: this interaction, and then things didn't go the way that

1258
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 2: Ira said how he planned it, you know, I guess,

1259
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 2: you know, like her injuries are pretty extensive, the broken wrists,

1260
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 2: the black eyes, the abrasions. I'd probably be focusing in on, well,

1261
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:39,559
Speaker 2: how far did she fall? Are those injuries consistent you know,

1262
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 2: with that fall? Or am I seeing something like, let's say,

1263
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 2: with modern pathology, are we seeing something more consistent with

1264
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 2: Oh no, you know, she is being punched in the

1265
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:55,559
Speaker 2: face as Charles is trying to ward off Ira and Sarah. Yeah,

1266
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 2: you know, so you know that's right now. We'll never

1267
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 2: get an answer to that quick question. But I do

1268
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 2: think that's you know, if that's with what Sarah has related,

1269
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,599
Speaker 2: if that's truly how it went down, then I can

1270
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 2: see the manslaughter.

1271
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 1: It was thirty feet by the way, I don't know

1272
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 1: if that's helpful for you. That first ledge that he

1273
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 1: hit that they had to climb down to to roll

1274
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:21,560
Speaker 1: him to get the rest of the way. It was

1275
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:22,639
Speaker 1: about a thirty foot drop.

1276
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ira and Sarah didn't fall false thirty feet.

1277
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 1: Well, but they say they slipped and fell. She says

1278
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:33,599
Speaker 1: that they threw his corpse from the bridge, and when

1279
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 1: they tried to descend the precipice to the ledge that

1280
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: thirty feet they both fell and that's how he broke

1281
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 1: his arm and she broke her wrist.

1282
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:45,280
Speaker 2: You know, I can see where. Yeah, during the course

1283
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 2: of the descent they fell a distance, but they didn't

1284
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:51,880
Speaker 2: fall thirty feet. Yeah. Based off of those injury, I

1285
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,639
Speaker 2: mean they likely would be dead. Okay.

1286
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 1: Well, Sarah is very good in prison, sing sing, and

1287
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 1: she gets out after lesson six years and then disappears

1288
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 1: from the history books. So to summarize what sounds like,

1289
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: a very bad man was murdered by the brother of

1290
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 1: a woman who was being abused. It sounds like we

1291
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:16,760
Speaker 1: don't know what her involvement was, but he is not

1292
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 1: the most sympathetic victim in the world. Ira, I don't

1293
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,879
Speaker 1: know what his feelings were for his sister or vice versa,

1294
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: but before he died, he felt entirely justified by this.

1295
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: So I mean we talk about those cases where do

1296
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 1: I feel badly for Charles? No? No, not based on

1297
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:37,559
Speaker 1: the information that not just the family said, but you

1298
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 1: know other people said, but the laws of law, and

1299
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 1: so you know, it sounds like they did kind of

1300
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:47,639
Speaker 1: what was supposed to be done. So you know that

1301
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:49,680
Speaker 1: that to me means this is a good case. I'm

1302
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:53,599
Speaker 1: I can't really remember another case from the eighteen hundreds

1303
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 1: where you've been so involved that you really like, I mean,

1304
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:59,160
Speaker 1: you really have enjoyed this case to a certain extent.

1305
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:03,840
Speaker 2: I think it got distilled down pretty quickly into well,

1306
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 2: we know who did it, and we have admissions as

1307
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,360
Speaker 2: to who did it. So what are the facts of

1308
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 2: the case, and then you know, what were the outcomes?

1309
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:19,520
Speaker 2: You know, Charles was dead, Ira was executed, Sarah served

1310
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 2: six years, and then I'm assuming live the rest of

1311
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 2: her life. And you know, you know, part of looking

1312
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 2: back at the notes, Sarah was nineteen years old, you know,

1313
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 2: and so and Ira was coming out of prison. Ira

1314
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:44,120
Speaker 2: lived a criminal life, you know, so in many ways,

1315
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:49,760
Speaker 2: Sarah is along for the ride, and to expect her

1316
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 2: to kind of at nineteen years old, to differentiate what's

1317
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 2: about to happen and what her role is and how

1318
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:02,839
Speaker 2: culpable she is. You know, there's a lot of factors

1319
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 2: going in, and so I think if what Sarah wrote

1320
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:11,400
Speaker 2: is is accurate, I think I'm good with. You know,

1321
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 2: she served a sentence and even though this is literally

1322
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:20,480
Speaker 2: this is a homicide, this is a murder, but her

1323
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:26,680
Speaker 2: role in it was as an accessory versus primary, and

1324
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 2: she was under the influence of an older brother who

1325
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 2: had a criminal history, was more criminally sophisticated, has served

1326
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 2: prison time, and potentially had no clue as to how

1327
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 2: this would ultimately play out. Now, if Sarah is brandishing

1328
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:49,080
Speaker 2: the brass knuckles and beating Charles to death, then she

1329
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:53,439
Speaker 2: got away with murder. But I'm guessing, as I mentioned

1330
01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:55,360
Speaker 2: in the beginning, I believed a male is the one

1331
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:59,400
Speaker 2: that committed this crime, and you know, Ira being the

1332
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 2: primary offender that is committing the violence makes sense to me,

1333
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 2: and that's Sarah was an accessory. I think the only

1334
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 2: thing that I would, you know, really have issues with

1335
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,679
Speaker 2: if Sarah was the one that lured Charles to his death.

1336
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 2: You know, if she took that step going, I know

1337
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:22,920
Speaker 2: IRA's going to kill him, and I'm going to put

1338
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 2: myself out as bait to get him here to be killed.

1339
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 2: Then I think Sarah has you know, she is culpable

1340
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:37,360
Speaker 2: of murder, second degree murder, maybe even first depending on

1341
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 2: how it can be charged, even though Ira is the

1342
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:43,439
Speaker 2: one that's actually committing the violence. But right now I

1343
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 2: think I'm I'm satisfied with what the results are. You know,

1344
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:49,880
Speaker 2: of course we have the whole you know, Charles execution

1345
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 2: and how that went awry. I don't want to get

1346
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 2: into that. You know, at that time, it sounds like

1347
01:20:57,479 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 2: death penalty was on the books in New York and

1348
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:04,759
Speaker 2: they proved a case against Syron. He basically made admissions.

1349
01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 1: Well, Paul Hols, you need a break, think because we

1350
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 1: have a break next week. We're on hiatus next week.

1351
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 1: So that's good because you've been sober well, because you've

1352
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:16,519
Speaker 1: been so involved with this case. I know that you're

1353
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 1: probably pretty wiped out at this point.

1354
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:19,880
Speaker 2: I'm almost sweating over here, Kate.

1355
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,080
Speaker 1: I mean, oh my god, it's the Seltzer.

1356
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 2: I think that's adding to it.

1357
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:27,559
Speaker 1: So I will see you in two weeks.

1358
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 2: As always, I look forward to it.

1359
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:36,639
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1360
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:39,679
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot

1361
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:41,880
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1362
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:44,440
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1363
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:47,719
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trubble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1364
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:50,240
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1365
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1366
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1367
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:59,519
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1368
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 1: Follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at buried Bones pod.

1369
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1370
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1371
01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:11,720
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and.

1372
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:16,080
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1373
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:17,920
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now.

1374
01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1375
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.