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Speaker 1: Well here at the Chuck Podcast, when you get a
Speaker 1: book proposal to interview somebody and the book is called
Speaker 1: Dodgers to Damascus, it's almost as if the publication was
Speaker 1: trying to identify me as the target's interview e as
Speaker 1: a Dodger fan, growing up as a political junkie. Now
Speaker 1: policy junkie a story, and this is a biography. The
Speaker 1: book itself as a biography of my guest today, David Lesh,
Speaker 1: who is who began his studies of the Middle East
Speaker 1: by being a prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. We'll
Speaker 1: let him, I'll it's ways, that's exactly what it was,
Speaker 1: that the dream of baseball. Like a lot of of
Speaker 1: aspiring baseball players, injuries can sometimes get in the way
Speaker 1: of a career. And you use another part of your body,
Speaker 1: your brain to pursue another passion, which is what David
Speaker 1: Lesh did. And it's a fascinating story. And the book
Speaker 1: is fascinating but sort of lessons from baseball to help
Speaker 1: resolve the Middle East crisis or crises plural. So David
Speaker 1: Lesh joins me now the subject of the book, David,
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. It's nice to meet you.
Speaker 2: Nice to meet you, too, supposed to be. I'm glad
Speaker 2: the book sound its way across your desk. That's great.
Speaker 1: So let me ask this what's it? I mean it
Speaker 1: is this. You didn't write the book, you participated. It
Speaker 1: is an authorized biography. That's it's almost like your.
Speaker 2: You you you.
Speaker 1: I always say it's sort of it's going to be
Speaker 1: awkward with It's like you are willing to expose yourself
Speaker 1: to the to the world. And I think when you're
Speaker 1: when somebody writes a biography of somebody that's still alive, right, You're, You're,
Speaker 1: that's a lot of you got to You're You're always
Speaker 1: being asked to give more and more. What did it
Speaker 1: feel like to read about yourself through a third person?
Speaker 2: It was weird. You definitely are identifying the awkwardness of
Speaker 2: it for me. In fact, Catherine Nixon Cook, who did
Speaker 2: such a wonderful job as an accomplished author, who wrote
Speaker 2: this book, and she called me one time she said, David,
Speaker 2: I'm having trouble writing the last chapter. And I said why,
Speaker 2: and she said, because you're still alive, you know you're That's.
Speaker 1: Wuld be my challenge as a writer if I had
Speaker 1: this assignment. You know, you're you're you. You want to
Speaker 1: make a conclusion about somebody's life or legacy, and if
Speaker 1: they're still alive, how do you word it in a
Speaker 1: way that doesn't make them either feel like you're doing
Speaker 1: their obituary or you're taking a shot at them.
Speaker 2: Well, that my wife is over now, you know, I
Speaker 2: can't do anything else. But I'm still active and I
Speaker 2: have a lot to look forward to, I hope. But
Speaker 2: she did a good job. In fact, the last chapter
Speaker 2: is entitled Stay Tuned, which hopefully as a metaphor for
Speaker 2: better and bigger things that I can accomplish in my
Speaker 2: life as we go forward. In all ways, but it
Speaker 2: was a very weird experience, and I was compelled to
Speaker 2: be introspective in a way that you know, at this
Speaker 2: age of my life, I didn't you know, figure I'd
Speaker 2: be doing. And it forced me to look at a
Speaker 2: lot of situations throughout my life. It was interesting to
Speaker 2: see because she interviewed like fifty sixty you know, colleagues
Speaker 2: and friends, family acquaintances, and it was interesting to see
Speaker 2: what they thought of me, and which was much better
Speaker 2: that I had anticipated, by the way. But so it
Speaker 2: was in a writing experience. It was emotional at times
Speaker 2: because I had to revisit some periods and events in
Speaker 2: my life that you know, had a great deal of
Speaker 2: impact in positive and negative ways. But was it was
Speaker 2: really I thought, you know, well done by Catherine. A
Speaker 2: very positive experience overall.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what's drawn you to become, you know,
Speaker 1: the essentially to do all the scholarship that it takes
Speaker 1: to become a Middle East expert. And I always I
Speaker 1: put experts in quotes because an expert of what these days, right,
Speaker 1: it's almost in some ways you're an anthropologist, right, You're
Speaker 1: a civilization. You're trying to understand and what it really
Speaker 1: is is. You know, I have my own opinions about
Speaker 1: how we just don't people don't understand the history of
Speaker 1: the Middle East before nineteen forty eight, right' that's my
Speaker 1: largest frustration in sort of the coverage of stuff. But
Speaker 1: what drew you to it? Why did you want to
Speaker 1: make this your area of expertise?
Speaker 2: Well, I struck out it everything else chuck.
Speaker 1: So yeah, oh, there you go. There's the dad pun
Speaker 1: striking out there.
Speaker 2: It is no I think as in most cases, and
Speaker 2: what I hope I'm doing to some of my students
Speaker 2: as a professor now is I had a couple of
Speaker 2: wonderful professors after I, you know, flamed out at baseball
Speaker 2: with the injury, and I went back to undergrad school
Speaker 2: and I had two wonderful, wonderful professors. It was just
Speaker 2: pure luck. I was always interested in international relations. Lou
Speaker 2: Cantorre and Robert Freeman were the two. They were well
Speaker 2: known in the field, and they just turned me on
Speaker 2: to a subject that at that time, you know, the
Speaker 2: late seventies, early eighties, as you well know, it was
Speaker 2: not covered very well or objectively. And so I did
Speaker 2: the more I started studying it, and more importantly, when
Speaker 2: I started traveling there, I just became enamored with that history,
Speaker 2: with the people and why things you know, went off
Speaker 2: the track, so to speak. So much in so many
Speaker 2: areas in the Middle East. I wanted to understand that
Speaker 2: and hopefully later on as I as I hope I've
Speaker 2: done in my books to help explain it to an audience.
Speaker 1: So I have a bit of a snarky sort of
Speaker 1: take on when it comes to sort of are what
Speaker 1: I think is our ignorance about the Middle East, which
Speaker 1: is and it comes from being a Jewish American, and
Speaker 1: I'm not a very religious person, but I get I've
Speaker 1: always felt I've never felt as if that part of
Speaker 1: my identity mattered until a whole bunch of other people
Speaker 1: want to tell me it's supposed to matter, and I
Speaker 1: get sort of if I get my back up, I
Speaker 1: joke anytime I hear the word populism, whether it's left
Speaker 1: wing populism or right wing populism, I know the first
Speaker 1: thing they're doing is coming for the Jews. But you know,
Speaker 1: I realize in sort of the in the this began
Speaker 1: before October seventh, but certainly post October seventh, the amount
Speaker 1: of people that didn't understand the Middle East pre nineteen
Speaker 1: forty eight, and that really the biggest problem we had
Speaker 1: generationally was and then it realized, well, how are we
Speaker 1: taught World War One and World War Two. And I
Speaker 1: think about World War One and we're I'm guessing you
Speaker 1: had a similar grade school experience that I did. You're
Speaker 1: a little bit older than me, but we basically, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, probably that fairly consistent education there, which was
Speaker 1: we're taught World War One through the prison of World
Speaker 1: War Two. You know, we screwed Germany too much, made
Speaker 1: him angry and it started the Second War. We never
Speaker 1: talk about the other part of World War One, which
Speaker 1: was the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the fact
Speaker 1: that in some ways, and a couple as I joke,
Speaker 1: a couple of drunk Frenchmen and Brits decided to draw
Speaker 1: straight lines and say you get a country you don't
Speaker 1: you do?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden it's the United States. It's
Speaker 1: left to deal with this mess. Again I'm being it's
Speaker 1: a bit of a snark, but it's it does get
Speaker 1: at what I think is the root issue of our
Speaker 1: misunderstanding of a lot of the Middle East issues, which
Speaker 1: is not understanding how it all broke apart after the
Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. My pet peeve is that Americans in general,
Speaker 2: Westerners especially Americans, had this telescopic view toward the Middle East,
Speaker 2: and we need a microscopic view, and the telescopic view
Speaker 2: is quite prejudiced and biased in many different directions.
Speaker 1: Incomplete, absolutely, and complete is the best description I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you need that microscopic view. But in today's
Speaker 2: especially as time has gone on, in today's media, as
Speaker 2: you will know, and sound bites and social media and
Speaker 2: so forth, people want information in small bytes and small packets,
Speaker 2: and even foreign leaders, you know, they want that one
Speaker 2: page brief, less than one page brief instead of reading
Speaker 2: a whole executive summary, even of a particular problem, especially
Speaker 2: a country like the United States, which has so many
Speaker 2: issues all over the world and responsibilities and objectives. If
Speaker 2: we're a president, to focus on one single thing and
Speaker 2: really understand it is very very unusual unless they have
Speaker 2: a background in it. But yeah, I mean the Automan Empire.
Speaker 2: You talk about the two drawing Frenchmen that Jordan was
Speaker 2: always said a joke was that Winston Churchill had a
Speaker 2: hiccup and drew that partage ordinate sticks out. But the
Speaker 2: reality is it was to connect pipelines from the Version
Speaker 2: Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea. So there was all strategic
Speaker 2: reasons behind all of this. And one of the things
Speaker 2: people understand, I think the British and the French obviously
Speaker 2: allied on the Tient powers in World War One, but
Speaker 2: they always saw each other as potential enemies.
Speaker 1: After the war, they were competing for pieces of the
Speaker 1: Middle East.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, And so you know, Syke's Pico and all
Speaker 2: these infamous secret wartime agreements were always you know, from
Speaker 2: each side aimed at the other for what they hope
Speaker 2: would be victory and defeating the central Powers, including the
Speaker 2: Ottoman Empire. But you're right, I mean, the fall of
Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire is sort of glossed over, and it's
Speaker 2: the Eurocentric orientalist view of World War One and what
Speaker 2: happened with the artificial divisions in the Middle East.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's interesting. This is also this week
Speaker 1: is the anniversary of Panamanian independence, and essentially Panamanian independence
Speaker 1: came because Teddy Roosevelt kind of deal because he wanted
Speaker 1: to a strip of land to build animal canal. So
Speaker 1: they basically created Panamanian independence, right, And it reminds me
Speaker 1: of sort of how the Europeans dealt with the Middle East.
Speaker 1: It's the same way the United States has dealt with
Speaker 1: Latin America essentially for the last hundred years, which is
Speaker 1: what can you do in the region for us, not
Speaker 1: what can we do for you in the region. Is
Speaker 1: that a simplistic view, But is that how you would
Speaker 1: sort of describe sort of the Eurocentric relationship with the
Speaker 1: Middle East over the last hundred years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought you were going to say, not the
Speaker 2: one hundred year but the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration,
Speaker 2: as we were there to that coming up too, agreements,
Speaker 2: But yeah, absolutely. I mean, all countries act in their
Speaker 2: own national interests and if they have leverage in terms
Speaker 2: of those interests, that are going to exercise that leverage.
Speaker 2: And what Israel has done, you know, ever since it
Speaker 2: came into being in nineteen forty eight, and what all
Speaker 2: countries do the British, the French, the Americans, the Russians,
Speaker 2: and without taking into consideration or very much consideration, the
Speaker 2: wants and needs of the local populations other than that
Speaker 2: which will feed their own strategic interests. And so that's
Speaker 2: that's very very true. And it's you know, the countries
Speaker 2: in the Middle East, they lack in many ways in
Speaker 2: national identity, They lack, the rulers lack legitimacy. A lot
Speaker 2: of that goes all the way back to the artificiality
Speaker 2: of the heartland of the Middle East.
Speaker 1: We just created monarchies right out of these tribal leaders.
Speaker 2: Right monarchies and so called Arab republican regimes that act
Speaker 2: like monarchies because they want to be. You know, the
Speaker 2: Mcadafi and Nasir and Mobark and Asad, they all want
Speaker 2: to be. They all wanted to be and were in
Speaker 2: some cases succeeded by their sons, so they turned out
Speaker 2: to be monarchies in effect.
Speaker 1: So who did you have which aside did you have
Speaker 1: did you start to strike up I don't want to
Speaker 1: say relationship, but sort of a conversation with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was Bashar al Assad, who came to power
Speaker 2: in two thousand after his father died. And you know,
Speaker 2: I'd been going to Syria quite some time, and and
Speaker 2: you know, I like to consider myself a Middle Eat
Speaker 2: specialist in media trant areas, but Syria's is definitely my
Speaker 2: number one specialty. And I traveled the ore over thirty
Speaker 2: thirty five times over the years, and so I knew
Speaker 2: I had a pretty good network in Syria. Particularly in
Speaker 2: mine academics, and when Oside came to power in two thousand,
Speaker 2: he brought academics into the government, which some fought as
Speaker 2: you know, hope for the future, others I was.
Speaker 1: Just going to say, there was a brief period where
Speaker 1: they thought maybe he'll be a modernizer, maybe he'll be
Speaker 1: king using right, yeah.
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah, and or a faisal in Saudi Arabi even
Speaker 2: the back day in the seventies, and and you know
Speaker 2: he was young. He liked Western music, he liked Western
Speaker 2: you know, technological toys. You know, he was a computer nerd.
Speaker 1: And everyone was educated in London, right educated.
Speaker 2: He received you know, he was trying to get his
Speaker 2: what is essentially his Boord certification ophalmology in London. But
Speaker 2: people have to remember he only spent you know, two
Speaker 2: years in London. And even though he liked the Electric
Speaker 2: Light Orchestra and Phil Collins and the Beatles, you know,
Speaker 2: his upbringing was molded by, you know, being a child
Speaker 2: of the ar of Israeli conflict, a child of the
Speaker 2: super power conflict when Syria was on the side of
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union in Russia, and most most importantly, a
Speaker 2: child of Hafaz Alalasad, his father, who had a very
Speaker 2: particular brand of authoritarianism in Syria. So those are the
Speaker 2: things that shaped his worldview. And I was very interested in,
Speaker 2: you know, his transition from enthalmologists to ruler. And so
Speaker 2: I contacted one of these academics he brought in who
Speaker 2: happened to be the good friend of mine, who was
Speaker 2: in the Minister of Higher Education, and said, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: I like to write a book on him. Can I
Speaker 2: meet with Charlasad? And that's how it all started, and
Speaker 2: a couple of years later, in two thousand and four,
Speaker 2: came into being.
Speaker 1: He's done this with a few Americans over the years,
Speaker 1: like he seems to constantly. You know, there's there's been
Speaker 1: a handful of Americans that I feel like I've had
Speaker 1: that he does want to reach out to the Western side.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and so timing, Yeah, when you reached out
Speaker 2: to me in two thousand and four through his ambassador
Speaker 2: to the United States, he was also a friend of mine.
Speaker 2: It was not a coincidence at that time because it
Speaker 2: was right after the US led invasion of Iraq and
Speaker 2: Syria was slowly turning into a target, not slowly, actually
Speaker 2: quickly turning into a target. Whereas before the invasion, right
Speaker 2: after nine to eleven, American officials were saying Syria was
Speaker 2: helping to save lies with intelligence cooperation on al Kaeda.
Speaker 2: After two thousand and three, now Syria was costing American
Speaker 2: lives because they were allowing Jahadas to go through their
Speaker 2: country and into Iraq, which caused problems for the US
Speaker 2: and its allies. And so, you know, I was very
Speaker 2: interested in that transition, but he was interested in portraying
Speaker 2: a more positive image just when Syrian US relations, I
Speaker 2: think were deteriorating quite a bit.
Speaker 1: So let's fast forward. What do you think of what's
Speaker 1: happening in Syria right now? And what kind of faith
Speaker 1: do you have in this new leader? You know, to
Speaker 1: go from a you know, essentially the insurgency to the establishment,
Speaker 1: right whether no matter your political situation, no matter your country,
Speaker 1: insurgents usually have a tough time governing.
Speaker 2: That is the question, isn't it? That is the one
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars question. I get asked it all the time.
Speaker 2: I ask other people who know the president much more
Speaker 2: intimately than the new president, much more intimately than I do,
Speaker 2: and I still get different responses. Because we really don't know.
Speaker 2: As you just said, going from revolutionary to ruler is
Speaker 2: a trying process. It's not always successful. The revolutionary can't really,
Speaker 2: you know, rule in a way that is different from
Speaker 2: the way that he handled things beforehand. Plus, and this
Speaker 2: is throughout history. When rulers of opposition movements they come
Speaker 2: to power, those that help them come to power want dividends.
Speaker 2: They want you know, they want positions in the in
Speaker 2: the government. They have a certain way of looking at things,
Speaker 2: especially if they come from.
Speaker 1: S superpowers, what believe they should get a little little
Speaker 1: extra something as.
Speaker 2: Well all the time. Yeah, they want not just a little,
Speaker 2: they want a lot on everything. That So Ahma Shadda,
Speaker 2: the new president. You know, on the one hand, the
Speaker 2: Israelis quite frankly, they're skeptical and after October seven, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, and this mcpunker mentality that they have right now,
Speaker 2: they're want to air in the side of caution. And
Speaker 2: most of the Israelis I've talked to in the military
Speaker 2: and politically, you know, they see that Ahma Shada's turn
Speaker 2: toward moderation, pragmatism, wanting inclusive government is more a tactical
Speaker 2: maneuver than something that represents a true change, and that
Speaker 2: he's going to revert to his Jahada's roots at some point.
Speaker 2: And yet others I've talked to that know him actually personally.
Speaker 2: One NGO in London knew him for ten years and
Speaker 2: they are convinced he is pragmatic, he has changed, you know.
Speaker 2: They he's going to be visiting Washington a week from
Speaker 2: today and meeting with Trump and they'll probably serial will
Speaker 2: sign on to the Anti ISIS coalition, which is supposed
Speaker 2: to be a big deal. But they've been helping in
Speaker 2: terms of intelligence cooperation with the US and tracking down
Speaker 2: Okada and ISIS operat Is when he was an indlab
Speaker 2: for the last decade. Now, he did that because he
Speaker 2: wanted to clear out and he helped clear out any
Speaker 2: any opposition or a competition.
Speaker 1: And I was just going to say, this is a
Speaker 1: classic case. The enemy of my enemy is my ouse
Speaker 1: exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: But we've had this relationship with him for a while
Speaker 2: that has been tactical and opportunistic. I mean all leaders
Speaker 2: are opportunistic, they want power, they're egotistical. But if it
Speaker 2: could be molded, and it couldn't way, so to speak,
Speaker 2: in a way their population stability than Okay.
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Speaker 1: unless they win. So the first person that popped in
Speaker 1: my head when you were talking about this debate, you know, No,
Speaker 1: he's a secret jehatis No, he's a pragmatist was air
Speaker 1: to one. Yeah. Right, We've had the same debate about
Speaker 1: air to one now for almost twenty years. No, he
Speaker 1: can be dealt with. No, he's you know, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, he's still Muslim brotherhood, right Like,
Speaker 1: there's this and yet you know Israel at times doesn't
Speaker 1: want to deal with them. But he's a necessary you know,
Speaker 1: he's also the head of a country that's a member
Speaker 1: of NATO, right, Like, there's this necessity. How would you
Speaker 1: characterize the new leader of Syria through the prism of Erdiwan? Like,
Speaker 1: is he is at the same type of unsureness about
Speaker 1: where their real biases lie.
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. I mean, I think we're on
Speaker 2: the road to a sectarian majoritarian state where his Sunni faction,
Speaker 2: particularly a much more conservative branch of Sunni Islam, are
Speaker 2: going to dominate things in Syria.
Speaker 1: If the actually does this mean he's going to get
Speaker 1: a lot of funding from MBS ANDBZ and oh the
Speaker 1: entire Oh yeah, as.
Speaker 2: He did as they did during the opposition times. And well,
Speaker 2: you know, this reminds me you were talking about. This
Speaker 2: reminds me nineteen fifties, when you're talking about history in
Speaker 2: the Middle East. There was a wonderful political science term
Speaker 2: that the US applied to these authoritarian leaders. It was
Speaker 2: called transitional authoritarianism, where you know, we support these guys
Speaker 2: because they support US interests with military, political aid to plays.
Speaker 1: It's why they all hate us. In Latin America, we
Speaker 1: always supported whoever was on our side, not whether they
Speaker 1: were spading democrats.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we thought they would transition, right, that they
Speaker 2: would transition to democracy. But yeah, oh wow, they live power.
Speaker 2: They want to stay in power. And this is how
Speaker 2: we got with the Shavaran as well, you know, all
Speaker 2: these other guys. So, you know, I see this playbook
Speaker 2: again happening with Syria. We're going to be acting in
Speaker 2: our strategic interests as well as Israel. We want to
Speaker 2: keep Iran out, we want to keep the Russians at
Speaker 2: bay in Syria and hope that it just doesn't implode
Speaker 2: into another civil war.
Speaker 1: So can Syria become a democracy pledgling democracy all our raq?
Speaker 2: Can it?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? They all can become democracies under certain circumstances. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: those circumstances ever arrive, and not just the you know,
Speaker 2: the larger ones, big ones, but in terms of literacy,
Speaker 2: literacy rates, in terms of civil society, all of these
Speaker 2: things that happen, in terms of economic output and economic opportunity,
Speaker 2: all these things have to happen before we get to
Speaker 2: the big questions of you know, who can vote and
Speaker 2: how many people get to vote, So you know it
Speaker 2: can happen. But you know, ninety percent of the country
Speaker 2: is in the poverty rate. The country has been dealing
Speaker 2: with fifteen years of withering international sanctions. It's a population
Speaker 2: that's highly fragmented and militarized, with independent militias, with drug mafias,
Speaker 2: with a rapacious warlords roaming around that have more power
Speaker 2: than the national army. And you have these sectarian fortresses
Speaker 2: which were created with the breakdown of the state during
Speaker 2: the serians of a war. They you know, you naturally
Speaker 2: retreat into your sectarian fortress and you look at the
Speaker 2: other sex as a heathen scum that must be eliminated
Speaker 2: from the world. And so how do you piece all
Speaker 2: that together? And it's it's going to take a long time,
Speaker 2: a lot of patients. It may have to go through
Speaker 2: various iterations of who is in power, and hopefully not
Speaker 2: another all out of civil war.
Speaker 1: So the what is I mean, what country has a
Speaker 1: shot at trying democracy next after Iraq? And why are
Speaker 1: you surprised that Iraq is still sort of a democracy.
Speaker 2: Sort of being the operative No.
Speaker 1: I mean it's not not a democracy. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not Egypt.
Speaker 2: You know what are we a democracy?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: We got electoral college? You know something?
Speaker 1: I mean, do the people have an advanced to change
Speaker 1: the government in this country? And I still say the answers.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah. And so in Iraq. One of the problems,
Speaker 2: and this may be the future of Syria is you
Speaker 2: have the Kurdish Autonomous Zone in the north.
Speaker 1: I want to bring up the Kurds in a minute here, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Which is virtually an independent country and actually doing much
Speaker 2: better than the rest of them.
Speaker 1: I don't know why we don't support a Kurdistan. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know why we don't because Turkeys.
Speaker 2: Turkey, Walt and Iran Walton, Iraq Walton.
Speaker 1: I you know, all those countries don't want it. But
Speaker 1: you know, isn't the isn't the exposure of Iran at
Speaker 1: being a paper tiger make the idea of a cur
Speaker 1: to stand more possible.
Speaker 2: I think so in the sense that they won't cause
Speaker 2: as much trouble in a rock. And that goes for
Speaker 2: what you were saying earlier, the possibility of Rock becoming
Speaker 2: more of a democracy. I think Iran's being exposed and
Speaker 2: being severely weakened has helped or increase the possibility of
Speaker 2: a Rock becoming a functioning democracy, has increased the possibility
Speaker 2: of Lebanon becoming a functional democracy, and maybe maybe Syria,
Speaker 2: you know, down the road. But you know, at this point,
Speaker 2: you know, I have a low bar of successors.
Speaker 1: How any Middle East expert is it going to ever
Speaker 1: be too?
Speaker 2: Sadly? I just want stability and uh, you know, benevolent governance,
Speaker 2: uh in these countries.
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting. I have a colleague who just came
Speaker 1: back from Iran, spent about two weeks here doing some reporting,
Speaker 1: touching base with some sources again, and he came back
Speaker 1: pretty convinced that the Iatolas are not going to be
Speaker 1: able to hold power when this one dies. That is
Speaker 1: that this is the next big crisis in the Middle East.
Speaker 1: Is going to be Iranian instability and that it's sort
Speaker 1: of the It is, on one hand, something we've been
Speaker 1: wanting right as a policy outcome, and yet are we
Speaker 1: really ready for it?
Speaker 2: What say you, Yeah, be careful what you want right, right,
Speaker 2: and careful what you wish for. I guess that's one
Speaker 2: of the reasons why you know, NBS in Saudi Arabia
Speaker 2: wants that security pack so desperate, as well as access
Speaker 2: to nuclear technology because of that anticipation of instability perhaps
Speaker 2: in the future in Iran, and what might what might
Speaker 2: take over in Iran if the iotolas fall? You know,
Speaker 2: will it becomes Sometimes when the boogeyman falls, it's not
Speaker 2: necessarily what we want comes into power, something even perhaps worse.
Speaker 1: Well, we saw that in Egypt.
Speaker 2: We saw that in Egypt. Yeah, suddenly they're.
Speaker 1: Like, well, wait a minute, we'd like that military dictatorship back.
Speaker 2: Please. Yeah. Democracy is great as long as they elect
Speaker 2: the person we like, right, And but Iran I agree
Speaker 2: with that. I agree with your colleagues observation. I think
Speaker 2: Iran is on the precipice. You know that this was.
Speaker 1: A really it's really the unpopularity of the of the
Speaker 1: iotolas are huge, the distrust, and then the fact that
Speaker 1: they so easily folded, right there was just there's no longer.
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, they're still brutalizing opposition, domestic opposition, they're
Speaker 1: still trying to be an authoritarian state, but they've certainly
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of fear anymore of the Iotolas. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's not so they folded. It's not so much
Speaker 2: that they were beaten, they were obliterated.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, despite all of this, you know, supposed deterrence
Speaker 2: between Israel and Iran, and then Israel goes and takes
Speaker 2: out his belah and the most and most unique way uh.
Speaker 2: And then a side falls and the only viable and
Speaker 2: then Hamas of course is terribly weaken the only viable
Speaker 2: you know, proxy militias, the Huthis now and Yemen. But
Speaker 2: Iran is weakened their image, I think even more importantly,
Speaker 2: their image has just gone down the tubes with regional
Speaker 2: powers uh. And I think we can see a realignment
Speaker 2: of this. But what will happen in Iran. Iran has
Speaker 2: always been reviewed as the prize, along as already Arabia
Speaker 2: and the Gulf, So there are gonna be a lot
Speaker 2: of eyes the prize.
Speaker 1: I mean I look at it as if Iran ever
Speaker 1: decides to be a Western democracy, watch out. They're going
Speaker 1: to be an economic powerhouse.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And I mean they got the largest natural
Speaker 2: gas reserves in the world, large oil reserves, and they
Speaker 2: have the minerals if they can just get their act together.
Speaker 2: Of course, we could say it about Venezuela, we could
Speaker 2: say it about you know, you didn't even say it
Speaker 2: about Syria, you know. I mean, Syrians for years have
Speaker 2: always told me we'd be much better allies than the Israelis.
Speaker 2: Would you know, we would, We wouldn't undercut you as
Speaker 2: much as the Israelis have done, and I'm sure the
Speaker 2: Iranians would would try to do it after all. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's a you know, far coo. It's Arabic script is
Speaker 2: an Indo European language, you know, and they have this
Speaker 2: past that aligns with the West in some ways. So
Speaker 2: what do you.
Speaker 1: Make of the of this, of this idea that the
Speaker 1: Middle East is essentially now the rules are being written
Speaker 1: by the Israelis and the Gulf States.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. I think
Speaker 2: Israel is at its at its apex of power in
Speaker 2: the region.
Speaker 1: It's funny apex of military power, but at a nator
Speaker 1: in influence, right.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that because
Speaker 2: military power speaks a great deal on that part of
Speaker 2: the world, and they are isolated internationally. But how long
Speaker 2: does diplomatic isolation last when you need them, you know,
Speaker 2: when they when they are on your strategic side, and
Speaker 2: that goes out, that goes out the window. So I
Speaker 2: don't I don't think the Israelis ever really worry about
Speaker 2: that too much. They're going to do what they want
Speaker 2: to do. They want, They're going to do what they
Speaker 2: feel is is in their strategic objectives. And they have
Speaker 2: done that. I mean, look at this, Chuck, I mean
Speaker 2: that they bomb Cutter.
Speaker 1: I think it's remarkable. You know, look, it's really frustrating
Speaker 1: to me because you know, look, if they had the
Speaker 1: way they managed, the way they did the war in
Speaker 1: Gaza versus the way they did Hesbelah, it's like night
Speaker 1: and day, right, it was the you know, you could tell,
Speaker 1: as I said, bbe let idf do its thing with
Speaker 1: Iran and with with Hesbela. They micro managed all things
Speaker 1: Gaza through the lens of domestic politics, which is why
Speaker 1: that's turned into an utter nightmare.
Speaker 2: Right, No, I agree. I mean they strategically took out
Speaker 2: his blow in a very phase step way, very strategic way,
Speaker 2: brilliant way, in the same.
Speaker 1: Thing the way that we had come to be exactly
Speaker 1: that many admire the Israelis about like they did with Munich.
Speaker 1: They treated Hesbelah like they did the Munich terrorists, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and these the bulldozer in Gaza and.
Speaker 1: Right, which is why they have this weird moment where
Speaker 1: they have maximized military very power. Yeah, but problems with
Speaker 1: you know that they're pretty isolated in the in the world. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Again, they bomb Cutter, and no Arab countries that are
Speaker 2: at peace with Israel break relations with it, you know,
Speaker 2: not even Cuting.
Speaker 1: You're right, it's astonishing. It was so brazyishing moment.
Speaker 2: It's an amazing moment. And and talks about how those
Speaker 2: shifts have occurred in the region uh and uh and
Speaker 2: the and the importance of the Gulf state's intelligence cooperation
Speaker 2: economic cooperation that they've had with zur Reel for for
Speaker 2: years prior to you know, some of them establishing relations.
Speaker 2: So this is this is absolutely a sea change for me,
Speaker 2: and I see Syria coming on board if this current
Speaker 2: uh UH government stays in power and follows along the
Speaker 2: line they're doing at least signing a security arrangement with Israel,
Speaker 2: and then once society has crossed the line, which they
Speaker 2: were they were gonna do, probably if Oxtober seventh didn't happen,
Speaker 2: which is one of the reasons, as you know, the
Speaker 2: did October seven.
Speaker 1: No, it was the you know, it was interesting. It
Speaker 1: was you know the way Washington works, you know, in
Speaker 1: the sort of everything is a deal. You know, the
Speaker 1: Saudis were going to give Biden this. Yeah, this was
Speaker 1: going to be Biden's like they weren't going to hold
Speaker 1: you know, the Trump people were pressuring them to to
Speaker 1: basically wait until Trump was there to add Saudi to
Speaker 1: the Abraham Accords. And they were gonna because the Saudi's weren't.
Speaker 1: They're not stupid. They want to play bipartisan American politics here.
Speaker 1: They want everybody because they frankly knew, unlike Bebe, the
Speaker 1: Saudis knew they had a problem in America's left and
Speaker 1: that they were better off trying to appease the American
Speaker 1: left rather than fight it. BB wants to fight it
Speaker 1: rather than a peace. But I'll but we could set
Speaker 1: that aside. And October seventh obviously made that impossible. But
Speaker 1: where talk to my friends that are going to be
Speaker 1: listening to this and say, I can't stomach MBS. Why
Speaker 1: should we help him? What say, give me the give
Speaker 1: me the academic view of why we've why they're a
Speaker 1: necessary partner.
Speaker 2: Oh, he's the only game in town right now for
Speaker 2: a very important strategic country. And and you know, I
Speaker 2: don't at all like some of the things he's on,
Speaker 2: especially to you know, Kashoji in assassinating and dismembering him,
Speaker 2: some of these things. But you know, I'm more of
Speaker 2: a realist to understand that. You know, tomorrow is a
Speaker 2: different day, and the Saudi is An NBS may be
Speaker 2: very much needed. You know now that now that you
Speaker 2: know Iraan is perhaps weaken We always thought of them
Speaker 2: at the Saudis as a counterway to Iran. But we
Speaker 2: have to see what's going to happen with Iran. It'll
Speaker 2: be interesting in the future. This will be interesting if
Speaker 2: ten fifteen years from now, Iran does get rid of
Speaker 2: the Ietolas, does stabilize, does become this this potential economic
Speaker 2: power is you know, much like Germany in mainland Europe.
Speaker 2: You know, what will happen with the Saudi relationship and
Speaker 2: so forth? Can the two mutually coexist with US interests? Right?
Speaker 1: You could see three economic powers in the Middle East Israel,
Speaker 1: a democratic Iran and this sort of religious monarchy in
Speaker 1: the golf right with the Saudi's and they are they
Speaker 1: going to be alliances or are they going to be competitors? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and that will be interesting to see
Speaker 2: and so many, so much more history will occur before
Speaker 2: we can even answer that question.
Speaker 1: So let's move backwards about your baseball career and how
Speaker 1: you you know, tell me how you fused it? You know,
Speaker 1: what is it? What are the lessons? You know. I'm
Speaker 1: a huge advocate of sports in general, youth sports. It
Speaker 1: teaches human interaction, it teaches there's so many lessons from
Speaker 1: team sports. In particular. I think football is ideally the
Speaker 1: most incredible team sport to deliver because eleven people have
Speaker 1: to do their job for success. In baseball, everybody has
Speaker 1: to do their job. There's a little bit of individual talent, right,
Speaker 1: you know that you can, but ultimately you don't win
Speaker 1: with that, you could be the greatest player in the
Speaker 1: world head Wlliams. But if you don't have enough good
Speaker 1: baseball players around you, you're not gonna win a World Series.
Speaker 1: So you know how when somebody says the lessons of
Speaker 1: baseball helped me become a better give me better perspective
Speaker 1: about the Middle East? You answer this question half.
Speaker 2: Because I failed so many times in baseball, I mean,
Speaker 2: as you and.
Speaker 1: Still in the Middle East. Is a lot of failure,
Speaker 1: A lot of failure.
Speaker 2: I mean failure is at the core of sports. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, what do you have to hit to reach
Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame in Major League Baseball?
Speaker 1: You only have to fail seven out of ten.
Speaker 2: Times, exactly, And so you have to keep coming back.
Speaker 2: As a pitcher. Of course, I was a hitter as
Speaker 2: well early on, but in professional baseball was a pitcher.
Speaker 2: And you know, one inning you give up a home run.
Speaker 2: The next inning, you know you have a chance to
Speaker 2: rectify the situation or the next game, and so you
Speaker 2: constantly fail. And I played basketball and tennis and all
Speaker 2: that in football when I was young, and you you
Speaker 2: were constantly tested, and you develop this resiliency which Sanjay
Speaker 2: Gupta I read the other day says resiliency is like
Speaker 2: strength training for the brain, you know, and it helps
Speaker 2: you get through personal traumas, it helps you get through
Speaker 2: failures later in life. And as I've become a conflict
Speaker 2: resolution person involved in high helvem negotiations and arabisareeli stuff, steering,
Speaker 2: civil war. You fail all the time, I mean, but
Speaker 2: you have to learn from it, and you have to
Speaker 2: have that resiliency, that persistence, perseverance to get through it
Speaker 2: and try again, and try again and try again. Now
Speaker 2: you don't want to make you know, Einstein's theory of
Speaker 2: insanity correct, but you you, you know, learn from it
Speaker 2: and adjust. And sometimes things just out of out of
Speaker 2: your control, ruins everything and brings you back to ground zero.
Speaker 2: And that's what happens in sports as well. And you
Speaker 2: just have to have that resiliency. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: one of my mantras is keep trying, don't know, eliminate
Speaker 2: yourself and keep trying. And that I had to think
Speaker 2: that's what I got from baseball and sports in general.
Speaker 1: When you you know, do you look back on your
Speaker 1: injury and think, boy, if it happened today, you know,
Speaker 1: the technology would have given me another chance.
Speaker 2: Jock, you be interviewing the lead commentator of the World
Speaker 2: Series right now, the lead analyst after a twenty year,
Speaker 2: brilliant Hall of Fame career at the injury.
Speaker 1: Now that's the what if in your head? How do
Speaker 1: you not think about that?
Speaker 2: What if? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I'm all the technological advancements. I mean, you know, Sadi
Speaker 1: Kofax's career ends. You know, show has already had two
Speaker 1: Tommy Jones, Yeah, I think, right, you know, it's it's remarkable, right,
Speaker 1: like Sadi Kofex might have had another five great years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I had a rotator cuff
Speaker 2: injury and rotator cuff surgery by Frank Job, but the
Speaker 2: Dodgers didn't really perfect itself for another five ten years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I really don't think that because I've had
Speaker 2: a fulfilling, you know, career in many ways more fulfilling,
Speaker 2: and I have a wonderful wife and family and so forth,
Speaker 2: so you know, all those If I become a major
Speaker 2: league player, that wouldn't have happened and wouldn't met these
Speaker 2: one of the people. But I don't really think of that.
Speaker 2: But but you know, sometimes, you know, I think I
Speaker 2: would have made a lot more money, that's for sure
Speaker 2: being a major league pitcher. But but drafting pictures is
Speaker 2: the worst investment in all of sports. That's why you
Speaker 2: got a draft about ten or fifteen of them. Hopefully
Speaker 2: one gets through because of all the injuries, because everything
Speaker 2: you do physiologically picture is wrong against normal you know, physiology.
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you say that I got you know,
Speaker 1: I think I told you off came raight.
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 1: The Dodgers were the team of my youth, so I
Speaker 1: used to just I know a lot of the history
Speaker 1: of the Dodgers in general, and any any individual player
Speaker 1: that sort of had made a name for themselves. I
Speaker 1: always have some curiosity about and the relief pitcher Marshall,
Speaker 1: who I believe is the first ever release pitcher to
Speaker 1: win this I young. He spent the last twenty years
Speaker 1: of his like obsessed with changing the motion of pictures
Speaker 1: for the very thing you just said said, like the
Speaker 1: way that we've taught pitching is actually asking the arm
Speaker 1: to do something it shouldn't be doing, and that if
Speaker 1: you change the motion, you could actually limit injuries. And
Speaker 1: I believe his method did produce one major leaguer who
Speaker 1: got into the majors. But given when you came up
Speaker 1: it was sort of tail end of Marshall's career there.
Speaker 1: Did you ever follow that that whole? Like, oh, ire
Speaker 1: the case he had?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I was. I was just thinking
Speaker 2: about this yesterday when I was talking to someone. If
Speaker 2: I had to change something with my motion while I
Speaker 2: was in college and then drafted in the pros, it
Speaker 2: would be throwing more side arm. I was a straight
Speaker 2: overhand pitcher, and straight overhand you throw the more pressure.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, it's right on your shoulder, like this
Speaker 1: kid at the Blue Jays just now. I just heard it, right,
Speaker 1: this kid with the Blue Jays, you savage, And don't
Speaker 1: you watch him throw and think, yeah, buddy, in about
Speaker 1: two years, you're going to have soldiers.
Speaker 2: It's going to happen, and they're all throwing so hard
Speaker 2: and putting so much stress on their their flexer ligaments
Speaker 2: and their forearm that they're all getting Tommy John surgery.
Speaker 2: I mean, as you said, Otani had too. It's like
Speaker 2: everyone has one. They're having them now in high school
Speaker 2: and college. It's like, you know, you know, it's something
Speaker 2: that has to happen before well isn't it.
Speaker 1: You Now, rarely will an MLB team draft a high
Speaker 1: school pitcher anymore. They almost want the college level. Get
Speaker 1: your Tommy John out, Get LSU to pay for the
Speaker 1: Tommy John right, Get cal State Fullerton to pay the
Speaker 1: Tommy John, you know that sort of thing, and then we'll.
Speaker 2: Off, you know, and come back for twenty three or
Speaker 2: you know, something like that. And it's so much stress
Speaker 2: on the body in the arm. But throwing side arm.
Speaker 2: If I had to go back, I do that because
Speaker 2: I did throw a sidearm every now and then just
Speaker 2: to cross up the hitter. I crossed up my catcher
Speaker 2: as well. But yeah, it was effective, and I threw
Speaker 2: actually even harder. I mean I had a low nineties,
Speaker 2: high eighties fastball, you know, peaked at ninety five, which
Speaker 2: in those days actually meant something. Can you believe change
Speaker 2: ups today are ninety miles an hour change The whole
Speaker 2: goal of.
Speaker 1: A changeup is what it has to be ten miles
Speaker 1: less than fastball exactly right. So if you're throwing a hundred,
Speaker 1: then yeah, right.
Speaker 2: That's just unfathomable to me. And sliders at ninety miles
Speaker 2: an hours, I don't know how these hitters are doing
Speaker 2: it how they can hit these things.
Speaker 1: But I know there's this point where you wonder when
Speaker 1: does the ligament, just when does the body? We have
Speaker 1: reached the peak performance of the body.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, you know, I think there's going
Speaker 2: to be a trend. This is getting so it's a
Speaker 2: pandemic of Tommy John surgery. I think there's going to
Speaker 2: be a trend to go back to the great Maddis
Speaker 2: Maddox type of pitching. You know, high eighties, maybe low
Speaker 2: nineties at best, movement on the ball, placement, pitch longer.
Speaker 2: I mean we were talking off camera with Jim Palmer
Speaker 2: and right Bob Gibson news guy. They for three hundred
Speaker 2: innings year after year, twenty complete games.
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Speaker 2: So I.
Speaker 1: I love Fernando. Fernando was you know, I was ten
Speaker 1: when he came up, right like that was peak, you know,
Speaker 1: and he was so much fun that World Series in
Speaker 1: eighty one and following his career and you look at
Speaker 1: his year stats and it was always like I always
Speaker 1: thought he was. I always thought he belonged to the
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame before everything else he did. And when
Speaker 1: you look at his eight year sort of his eight
Speaker 1: year peak, Nope, he always threw three hundred innings.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The joke was Tommy, you know, ruined his career by
Speaker 1: leaving him into always way too long and that he
Speaker 1: that he basically his eight years was the equivalent of
Speaker 1: what would be a seventeen year career today per number
Speaker 1: of innings you pitch.
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. Remember the Braves, you know, when they had
Speaker 2: Smolds and Maddocks.
Speaker 1: And Glavin Gavin, Yeah, they all.
Speaker 2: Pitched, you know, every four days. They pitched long, you know,
Speaker 2: deep into the game. And analytics have, in my mind,
Speaker 2: screw things up with that regard. And you know, you
Speaker 2: can't face a batter more than two times or the
Speaker 2: third time, they're going to catch on to you. But
Speaker 2: this is what pitching is all about, if you have
Speaker 2: enough pitches and and uh yeah, Maddox.
Speaker 1: I love those stories of Maddox, you know, and hear
Speaker 1: stories and he says, yeah, I let this guy see
Speaker 1: this pitch because I know I'm facing him in the
Speaker 1: playoffs and he's gonna think I'm gonna throw it again.
Speaker 1: And I'm never going to do like Maddox was always
Speaker 1: game planning on that bat. The next at bat when
Speaker 1: he was facing the current batter, I'm going to make
Speaker 1: him pop this one up. And sure enough he could
Speaker 1: do that. Like that's just that's pitching. That's that's strac.
Speaker 2: Actually thinking, actually thinking on the mound, you know. And
Speaker 2: and maybe that's why I'm into academia, Chuck.
Speaker 1: They always thought think can you imagine do they having
Speaker 1: an earpiece, oh where somebody's telling you what pitch to throat?
Speaker 2: That would be insulting to me, you know, I call
Speaker 2: the game that I think is it? Shirt ser you
Speaker 2: mentioned him searcher actually surets his own game. Don't ever
Speaker 2: get me one of these things, you know.
Speaker 1: And now Max is the last Max. It feels like
Speaker 1: we're about to see the end of the last era
Speaker 1: of sort of the twentieth century style of pitching. We're
Speaker 1: moving to this, right. Suger was always a throw back.
Speaker 1: You know. He never wanted to go less than seven, right,
Speaker 1: He always wanted to keep going. Your Verlanders, your your Surgers,
Speaker 1: your Kershaws, and here they are. They're all basically probably.
Speaker 1: I kind of think Max, I want him to retire.
Speaker 1: Now he gets to say he pitched the last gave
Speaker 1: me pitch was an old series, but it's hard to
Speaker 1: walk away, right, Like, how often did you wish you
Speaker 1: had one more year?
Speaker 2: I wish I wish I had I wish I had
Speaker 2: one year in the majors. I mean, as you know,
Speaker 2: I flamed out the miners. I wish I would have
Speaker 2: stayed healthy enough to God, because I went up against
Speaker 2: these guys in spring training and batting practice, and and
Speaker 2: you knew you.
Speaker 1: Had your stuff. It was just the injury that never
Speaker 1: gave me the shot I help.
Speaker 2: So, you know, I mean lots of ifs and what ifs,
Speaker 2: and sure I think I had the basic stuff. That's
Speaker 2: why I was drafting number one. I think and and
Speaker 2: by the Dodgers. So I like to think, I you know,
Speaker 2: if not.
Speaker 1: They were always a little bit better at identifying young pitchers.
Speaker 1: I mean that was their thing. That's what they did.
Speaker 2: That's what they did. But you still got to get
Speaker 2: a bunch of them because you just never know when
Speaker 2: the body's going to give out, and it will give
Speaker 2: out unless you're Clemens or Nolan Ryan, who has to
Speaker 2: be bionical I read.
Speaker 1: Is it Nolan Ryan that doesn't have the the the
Speaker 1: tendon that would snap or like he was basically literally
Speaker 1: a gift from God type of.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, elbow it's the key. You know,
Speaker 2: if you want your kid to become a pitcher, take
Speaker 2: out take out the flexor tendon or something like that, like.
Speaker 1: Don't even have it. It turns out it's an impediment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, but look at his legs,
Speaker 2: you know, Nolan Ryan and Tom c they're huge, and
Speaker 2: he got a lot of his power. It got low
Speaker 2: and pushed off and that's what a lot of pictures it.
Speaker 1: Certainly it looks like he's built that way. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: He's built bottom up. And if you told me, if
Speaker 1: I told you, he never It's interesting, by the way,
Speaker 1: a guy like Max Scherzer's never had a Tommy John
Speaker 1: and neither's Kershaw Right, what does it tell you if
Speaker 1: you've never had one these.
Speaker 2: Days that if he if you pitch the right way,
Speaker 2: if you don't worry about throwing your legs, now use
Speaker 2: your legs, use your body. And there's all sorts of
Speaker 2: mechanics now to align your body. There's so much more technology.
Speaker 2: Perhaps when I was playing, if they had that technology,
Speaker 2: they would have aligned my body, my motion more. I
Speaker 2: put less stress on the elbow shoulder for me. So
Speaker 2: you know they can do these things. But man, if
Speaker 2: you're throwing one hundred miles an hour, your arm is
Speaker 2: going to give out. You just cannot take that type
Speaker 2: of pressure. And the thing is, you know, hitters are
Speaker 2: they catch up, they're hitting these balls. And I've lewis
Speaker 2: how many teams your favorite teams? And a guy Jamie Moyer,
Speaker 2: you know who's forty He pitched forever eighty two miles
Speaker 2: an hour, eighty five miles an hour, and he pitches
Speaker 2: a shout out because hitters aren't used to that type
Speaker 2: of thing, you know, they're not used to eighty eighty
Speaker 2: with with motion and with the motion in the ball,
Speaker 2: and with targeting, you know, target to pitching. So it's
Speaker 2: I think think there's room for both, and I think
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think we're going to trend
Speaker 2: sort of in another direction. I hope, I hope.
Speaker 1: Well, it was exciting to see Amamoto throw a complete game.
Speaker 1: You're like, hey, that used to be a big that
Speaker 1: used to not be as big of a deal. A
Speaker 1: complete game of the World Series.
Speaker 2: It must be a different Yamamoto, you know, at some point.
Speaker 2: But and then it comes back the day after and
Speaker 2: throws you know, three innings, you know, after he throws
Speaker 2: a cop. I mean, it's unbelievable, and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: I hope his arm is okay. You know, I'm sure,
Speaker 2: having invested gazillion dollars in him, they're not going to
Speaker 2: ruin him.
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry as a as a Nats fan who
Speaker 1: watched the team make the decision not to use their
Speaker 1: young star pitcher in a run to the playoffs, and
Speaker 1: then they decided to over use them in their eventual
Speaker 1: run to the World Series. They you know, the price
Speaker 1: of a world I mean, Steven Strasburg never recovered from
Speaker 1: that overuse.
Speaker 2: That's true. That's true.
Speaker 1: I mean it ended his career. Now, the question is
Speaker 1: as a franchise, the ultimate prize is winning the World Championship.
Speaker 1: Is it worth it?
Speaker 2: Would you take that? Is that? Is that?
Speaker 1: Is that a well they did, that's the disc Basically,
Speaker 1: the Nats made.
Speaker 2: That worth it. As a Gnats fan, are you is
Speaker 2: that worth it?
Speaker 1: It's a great question. I'm glad to have had. I
Speaker 1: I tell this to my son because he's so depressed
Speaker 1: about the state of the Nats and it's an ownership
Speaker 1: group that doesn't look like they want to keep up
Speaker 1: with the Joneses or the Guggenheims, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Right, right, But.
Speaker 1: I tell him, you know what's what makes fandom fantastic
Speaker 1: because you experience a low for so long that when
Speaker 1: you get the taste of the high, it's so much
Speaker 1: it tastes so much better.
Speaker 2: Well, you're talking to as I said before, I grew
Speaker 2: up in Baltimore, a lifelong Orioles fan. We haven't won
Speaker 2: the World Series since eighty three. If we had an opportunity,
Speaker 2: if we were in the World Series this year, throw
Speaker 2: caution lit win, throw right the top pictures every every
Speaker 2: inning I don't care, you know, as you know, and
Speaker 2: I'm a pitcher, I realized what could happen with overuse?
Speaker 1: You know, So let me ask the Otani question to you,
Speaker 1: because I'm sure you get a version of it, But
Speaker 1: let me ask it this way. Why is this so unusual?
Speaker 1: I why why haven't more pitchers been more successful hitters
Speaker 1: in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think I think you're going to see this.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that most people don't realize
Speaker 2: is that major league pitchers, almost all of them, I
Speaker 2: would say, were really great hitters.
Speaker 1: In little they were probably the best team in their
Speaker 1: little league. But they played every pity if they weren't pitching,
Speaker 1: they were playing shortstop.
Speaker 2: Right my high school team, I was the best hitter.
Speaker 2: I was the best pitcher in college. It happens. But
Speaker 2: in college you start getting weeded out and you get
Speaker 2: into specialization. I remember, even when I was playing in
Speaker 2: the minor leagues, only the Cincinnati Reds, even in the
Speaker 2: minor low War leagues, allow pitchers to hit. But otherwise
Speaker 2: you're you know, you're DH four, and you never practice,
Speaker 2: you never take hitting practice, and so just like anything,
Speaker 2: you daturally skill. And so the specialization of it, but
Speaker 2: I did in a little league game. I did pitch
Speaker 2: a complete game, six inning shutout and hit a home
Speaker 2: run in the game. So and it was a legitimate
Speaker 2: home run, not a little league Yeah, you get a
Speaker 2: show exactly, but I do.
Speaker 1: It was always one of those I never understood why
Speaker 1: more pitchers couldn't take batting practice on their off days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it. I don't know. Maybe the Union
Speaker 2: got together and this is this is conspiracy theory talk,
Speaker 2: and they said they want these older guys who can
Speaker 2: want jobs.
Speaker 1: It's even conspiracy theory. No, no, no, no, The DH
Speaker 1: is more jobs.
Speaker 2: He Aaron, Tommy Davis. You know, these these older guys
Speaker 2: that can't play in the field, and and they want
Speaker 2: more offense. I mean that's the that's the key, you know,
Speaker 2: they want more runs, they want more offense. It was
Speaker 2: a business decision. And all the National League, of course,
Speaker 2: is designated hit her and I missed this the strategy
Speaker 2: of the picture hitting and all of that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: And but and there were some good there were some
Speaker 2: good pictures some you know who who hit as well.
Speaker 2: So I'm miss same.
Speaker 1: So could you know there's there's a team Israel in
Speaker 1: the world Baseball Classic. But baseball's never really taken in
Speaker 1: the Middle East. There is some cricket. Could you ever
Speaker 1: imagine being able to get more people interested in baseball
Speaker 1: in the Middle East.
Speaker 2: I think I'd like to get more people interested in
Speaker 2: baseball in the United States.
Speaker 1: With first, well, I know my son is My son
Speaker 1: tells me this all the time.
Speaker 2: He goes.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm the only one of my friends that
Speaker 1: actually follows baseball like they're Nats fans, but they weren't
Speaker 1: really Like he's now at school in Dallas, and the
Speaker 1: first thing he did was he wanted to go check
Speaker 1: out a Rangers game. He'd never been. And he had
Speaker 1: the hardest time convincing somebody to go with them to
Speaker 1: a baseball game.
Speaker 2: Because it's it's long, it's you know, to some that
Speaker 2: it's boring, there's not as much action. There's a lot
Speaker 2: more thought into it. I mean, you know, I take
Speaker 2: the George Will you know view.
Speaker 1: Toward I do too, Yeah, Wills my North Star base I.
Speaker 2: Think about every pitch where the fielders are, and so
Speaker 2: it's a lot of fun in my mind. But we're
Speaker 2: baseball aholics, you know. But for this generation and the
Speaker 2: recent generations you know, they want more action, more scoring,
Speaker 2: which is why baseball, you know, went to the home
Speaker 2: run and steroids and looked the other way and all
Speaker 2: this stuff to get more runs on the board. But
Speaker 2: we'll take in the Middle East, I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 2: the Saudi's play it. But that's a bunch of a
Speaker 2: Ramco kids. You know that that's all right.
Speaker 1: It is cricket close enough that you could use it
Speaker 1: as a gateway or not.
Speaker 2: No, it's a very different game. And people look at
Speaker 2: the history of baseball and they think it comes from cricket.
Speaker 2: It really doesn't. It comes from rounders, which is much
Speaker 2: more like baseball. But I don't think I can't even
Speaker 2: understand cricket, and cricketers can't understand baseball either.
Speaker 1: But I've tried to. I've like, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you're just traveling overseas and you're stuck in a
Speaker 1: hotel and there's nothing to watch other than either a
Speaker 1: rugby match or a cricket match. So you know, I
Speaker 1: would sit there and try to figure it out, and
Speaker 1: you're just like, well, you know, you know.
Speaker 2: While you make an interesting point, show, maybe in the
Speaker 2: Middle East and elsewhere, maybe baseball has more of a
Speaker 2: chance because their favorite sports, you know, soccer or football,
Speaker 2: uh and cricket. You know, they're they're long soccer and.
Speaker 1: They're low scoring. So maybe right, and it is about
Speaker 1: strategy that you know, in some ways the mentality of sports,
Speaker 1: especially in sort of Southeast Asia with cricket and soccer,
Speaker 1: and at least with cricket and soccer. I mean, you're right.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe we're stumbling onto something and that they
Speaker 1: enjoy the patience of the success.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just we just need baseball. I mean, obviously
Speaker 2: it's it's very popular in Latin America and East Asia.
Speaker 2: We just need baseball to enter into Europe and the
Speaker 2: and the Middle East and do what the NFL I
Speaker 2: think has been doing. You know, we of course we
Speaker 2: hold games in Mexico and and uh and have exhibitions
Speaker 2: in East Asia and so forth, or actually had some
Speaker 2: regular season games in Japan this this past year. So
Speaker 2: you know, I think one of the things, one of
Speaker 2: the things which changes everyone's perception in the particular region
Speaker 2: world out of sport United States, if someone from that
Speaker 2: region becomes a star and it becomes a guiding light
Speaker 2: like a show Antani or you know, earlier Japanese players
Speaker 2: and Korean players. We just need some some Middle East
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: We almost had it in you Darvish, Yeah, Japanese, Iranian.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly. So you know, if we get one
Speaker 2: of those these these you know, lightning rods that can
Speaker 2: that can act as a uh, you know, a form
Speaker 2: of attraction to your day, and and then you start
Speaker 2: to get youth baseball and stuff like that. And it
Speaker 2: may take a generation, but that's what it'll take.
Speaker 1: Let me get let me get you out of here.
Speaker 1: On the issue of Islamophobia, Okay, because as somebody who
Speaker 1: spent so much time in the Middle East, in the
Speaker 1: Arab world in general, and obviously there's you know, not
Speaker 1: all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims or Arabs
Speaker 1: and and and so for it. But Islam a phobia
Speaker 1: is one of those phobias that is like anti Semitism.
Speaker 1: It has it's on the left and the right. It
Speaker 1: can be a type of unifier that's not a healthy
Speaker 1: thing for a democracy.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Just tell me about your experience of sort of learning
Speaker 1: the culture that sort of got rid of or didn't
Speaker 1: allow a phobia to take to take in you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's because of travel. And this is
Speaker 2: why I'm such a big advocate of travel abroad in college,
Speaker 2: just to go places and not to an English language place.
Speaker 2: See they were in a language. Go someplace that makes
Speaker 2: you feel uncomfortable, Go someplace where you don't know the
Speaker 2: culture or learn the language. Immerse yourself, and that's when
Speaker 2: you really start to understand that these people, even though
Speaker 2: they follow in other religion and have many different habits
Speaker 2: and customs, they're like you in many different ways. They
Speaker 2: want many of the same things. And I bring students,
Speaker 2: brought groups over to the Middle East, and that's what
Speaker 2: they find out when they really interact with people and
Speaker 2: not just stay in the five star resort hotel. They
Speaker 2: go around to the rural areas they need people. They
Speaker 2: spend you know, an evening or even overnight at some house,
Speaker 2: and they learn about their lives. And that is the
Speaker 2: best way to get rid of these phobias and all
Speaker 2: of this misinformation that exists regarding Islam.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's we're seeing more Muslim Americans run
Speaker 1: for office over the next ten years, and you're going
Speaker 1: to see it. It is the tension that shows up
Speaker 1: in these communities and it ends up being it could
Speaker 1: be New York City, it could be Minneapolis, it could
Speaker 1: be La like it's you do in it. It's definitely
Speaker 1: a tougher barrier to break than I think I fully appreciate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Jimmy Carter said something that was very
Speaker 2: interesting when the Batlan Barack Obama became president and a
Speaker 2: lot of this latent racism came out because he was
Speaker 2: the first African American president, and Jimmy Carter said, you know,
Speaker 2: this is a good thing. People were afraid. He said, no,
Speaker 2: this is a good We needed to come out and
Speaker 2: only then can we address that. So maybe all of
Speaker 2: these things, more Muslims becoming involved in the community. Yes,
Speaker 2: it's causing some distress intentions and people are afraid of this,
Speaker 2: that and the other thing in Sharia law coming in,
Speaker 2: which is ridiculous. Maybe all of this has to happen.
Speaker 2: We need to get through this and have these discussions
Speaker 2: and hopefully through education and reasonable people making reasonable decisions
Speaker 2: that we can get past it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember Colin Powell when he endorsed Oboba the first time,
Speaker 1: and he said, but his answer to that is lucky
Speaker 1: he's not Muslim.
Speaker 2: But so what if he was, yeah, yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1: He tried. It was like, why it doesn't If he was,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't matter, right, this is it.
Speaker 2: And there are many Muslims that are as Muslim as
Speaker 2: I am Roman Catholic, which is not very much anymore, right,
Speaker 2: called it's.
Speaker 1: More about how it was more about your upbringing, not
Speaker 1: your prep Now.
Speaker 2: How you live, what type of person you are, these
Speaker 2: type of values, and you know, it just takes understanding,
Speaker 2: it takes listening, it takes empathy, and we're in short
Speaker 2: supply of all these things these days. But hopefully that'll change.
Speaker 1: So you still hang your hat in San Antonio.
Speaker 2: I do. I do, and probably we'll It'll be on
Speaker 2: my grave my grave site as well, because I love
Speaker 2: it here. It's a you know, big city with a
Speaker 2: small town atmosphere.
Speaker 1: I have to say San Antonio, this San Antonio, Austin
Speaker 1: megaopolis that's developing, right, I mean, you know it feels
Speaker 1: like it's feels very similar to d C Baltimore or that's.
Speaker 2: What Dallas Fort Worth. You know. Yeah, it's coming together,
Speaker 2: much more dominated by Austin in the last decade than.
Speaker 1: But I feel like, you know, maybe Wemby will change things.
Speaker 2: Right, I think so, hopefully the team stays here long enough.
Speaker 1: Well, I know, I mean, you know the Austin desperately
Speaker 1: wants a basketball team. I think they have a better
Speaker 1: shot at getting a baseball team. Like I love the
Speaker 1: idea of San Antonio getting having football and basketball and
Speaker 1: let Austin have the baseball.
Speaker 2: I would have a lot of San Antonio's of building
Speaker 2: their recent basketball arena where it is in the east side,
Speaker 2: to build it like about not maybe not halfway, but
Speaker 2: a little bit more closer on I thirty five North.
Speaker 1: Well, is it that halfway between Austin and San Antonio
Speaker 1: becoming its own city?
Speaker 2: Yeah, San Marcos and le bron Fels. It's it's as
Speaker 2: you said, it's a megalopolis. And that would have drawn
Speaker 2: from both cities, and therefore, you know, each team. I
Speaker 2: don't even care if they call it the San Antonial
Speaker 2: Austin Spurs or something. Just right, keep them here, draw
Speaker 2: from both cities, and that would have been great. But
Speaker 2: now we have a proposition going out to being elected
Speaker 2: on tomorrow that will decide whether or not the Spurs
Speaker 2: build a downtown arena, And if it doesn't pass, who knows,
Speaker 2: they may become the Austin. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Boy, the timing of that with Wemby on the rise,
Speaker 1: my guess is that probably helps it a couple of points.
Speaker 1: I mean, cities usually reject this stuff though they don't
Speaker 1: like taxpayer dotas.
Speaker 2: We don't like it, especially San Antonio. But you know,
Speaker 2: Spurs are on team in town.
Speaker 1: I'm going to put this on my list of races
Speaker 1: to watch on the proposition A and D. They're both
Speaker 1: key fantastic. Hey, Dave, this was great. I appreciate it
Speaker 1: getting to know you well.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it too, Chuck, thank you.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, people should check out the book Dodgers
Speaker 1: to Damascus. Uh, it's more of a Middle East book
Speaker 1: than it is a baseball book.
Speaker 2: It is it is I spent a few years in
Speaker 2: baseball and the rest of my life in Middle East,
Speaker 2: So yeah, proportionally appropriate.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's a it's a reminder that that
Speaker 1: sports is part of your education. It's you can't have
Speaker 1: a complete life in some ways, a complete education without
Speaker 1: without sports.
Speaker 2: That's sports and having other life experiences. You know, there's
Speaker 2: competition and discomfort and failure.
Speaker 1: So no, it's terrific. Lesson congratulations and like I said,
Speaker 1: I appreciate you exposing yourself because that's what that is,
Speaker 1: when you let somebody else write about you while you're
Speaker 1: still alive.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks, Thanks Chuck, I'm a regl in the end.
Speaker 1: But anyway, David, great to know you.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you about