WEBVTT - Interview Only w/ David Lesch - Bashar al-Assad, Broken Borders & Baseball 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.640 Do you hate hangovers, We'll say goodbye to hangovers. Out 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.160 of Office gives you the social buzz without the next 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:07.560 day regret. Their best selling out of Office gummies were 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:10.479 designed to provide a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood, 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.120 and enhance creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths, you 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.360 can tailor the dose to fit your vibe, from a 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.520 gentle one point five milligram micro dose to their newest 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.599 fifteen milligram gummy for a more elevated experience. Their THHC 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:28.159 beverages and gummies are a modern, mindful alternative to a 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.680 glass of wine or a cocktail. 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Right now, Soul is offering my audience thirty 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.240 percent off your entire order. So go to getsold dot 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:13.280 Com use the promo code toodcast. Don't forget that code. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:18.160 That's getsold dot Com promo code toodcast for thirty percent off. 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.920 Well here at the Chuck Podcast, when you get a 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.040 book proposal to interview somebody and the book is called 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:33.640 Dodgers to Damascus, it's almost as if the publication was 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.920 trying to identify me as the target's interview e as 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.400 a Dodger fan, growing up as a political junkie. Now 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:47.600 policy junkie a story, and this is a biography. The 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.240 book itself as a biography of my guest today, David Lesh, 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.280 who is who began his studies of the Middle East 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.480 by being a prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. We'll 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.480 let him, I'll it's ways, that's exactly what it was, 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:05.280 that the dream of baseball. Like a lot of of 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.560 aspiring baseball players, injuries can sometimes get in the way 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.959 of a career. And you use another part of your body, 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.800 your brain to pursue another passion, which is what David 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:23.200 Lesh did. And it's a fascinating story. And the book 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.840 is fascinating but sort of lessons from baseball to help 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:30.240 resolve the Middle East crisis or crises plural. So David 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.840 Lesh joins me now the subject of the book, David, 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:35.079 welcome to the podcast. It's nice to meet you. 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.200 Nice to meet you, too, supposed to be. I'm glad 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.480 the book sound its way across your desk. That's great. 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:44.000 So let me ask this what's it? I mean it 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.800 is this. You didn't write the book, you participated. It 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:53.200 is an authorized biography. That's it's almost like your. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:54.119 You you you. 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.000 I always say it's sort of it's going to be 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.920 awkward with It's like you are willing to expose yourself 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.079 to the to the world. And I think when you're 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.160 when somebody writes a biography of somebody that's still alive, right, You're, You're, 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.519 that's a lot of you got to You're You're always 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.480 being asked to give more and more. What did it 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.760 feel like to read about yourself through a third person? 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.600 It was weird. You definitely are identifying the awkwardness of 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.400 it for me. In fact, Catherine Nixon Cook, who did 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.520 such a wonderful job as an accomplished author, who wrote 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.480 this book, and she called me one time she said, David, 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.800 I'm having trouble writing the last chapter. And I said why, 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.120 and she said, because you're still alive, you know you're That's. 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.040 Wuld be my challenge as a writer if I had 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:44.040 this assignment. You know, you're you're you. You want to 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.680 make a conclusion about somebody's life or legacy, and if 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.960 they're still alive, how do you word it in a 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.160 way that doesn't make them either feel like you're doing 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.240 their obituary or you're taking a shot at them. 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:58.280 Well, that my wife is over now, you know, I 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.480 can't do anything else. But I'm still active and I 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.120 have a lot to look forward to, I hope. But 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.640 she did a good job. In fact, the last chapter 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:10.360 is entitled Stay Tuned, which hopefully as a metaphor for 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.480 better and bigger things that I can accomplish in my 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:15.680 life as we go forward. In all ways, but it 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.560 was a very weird experience, and I was compelled to 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.479 be introspective in a way that you know, at this 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.000 age of my life, I didn't you know, figure I'd 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.440 be doing. And it forced me to look at a 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.080 lot of situations throughout my life. It was interesting to 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.840 see because she interviewed like fifty sixty you know, colleagues 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:40.360 and friends, family acquaintances, and it was interesting to see 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:42.920 what they thought of me, and which was much better 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.200 that I had anticipated, by the way. But so it 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.000 was in a writing experience. It was emotional at times 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.919 because I had to revisit some periods and events in 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.440 my life that you know, had a great deal of 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.320 impact in positive and negative ways. But was it was 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.440 really I thought, you know, well done by Catherine. A 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.679 very positive experience overall. 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:12.520 So let's talk about what's drawn you to become, you know, 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.280 the essentially to do all the scholarship that it takes 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.359 to become a Middle East expert. And I always I 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.880 put experts in quotes because an expert of what these days, right, 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.680 it's almost in some ways you're an anthropologist, right, You're 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:30.120 a civilization. You're trying to understand and what it really 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:32.680 is is. You know, I have my own opinions about 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.960 how we just don't people don't understand the history of 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.839 the Middle East before nineteen forty eight, right' that's my 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.599 largest frustration in sort of the coverage of stuff. But 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.880 what drew you to it? Why did you want to 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:48.360 make this your area of expertise? 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.440 Well, I struck out it everything else chuck. 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.000 So yeah, oh, there you go. There's the dad pun 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:54.000 striking out there. 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.560 It is no I think as in most cases, and 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:00.960 what I hope I'm doing to some of my students 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.359 as a professor now is I had a couple of 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.719 wonderful professors after I, you know, flamed out at baseball 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.599 with the injury, and I went back to undergrad school 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.560 and I had two wonderful, wonderful professors. It was just 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.720 pure luck. I was always interested in international relations. Lou 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.000 Cantorre and Robert Freeman were the two. They were well 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.000 known in the field, and they just turned me on 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.360 to a subject that at that time, you know, the 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:26.359 late seventies, early eighties, as you well know, it was 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:31.960 not covered very well or objectively. And so I did 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.520 the more I started studying it, and more importantly, when 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.200 I started traveling there, I just became enamored with that history, 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:43.200 with the people and why things you know, went off 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.920 the track, so to speak. So much in so many 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.200 areas in the Middle East. I wanted to understand that 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.960 and hopefully later on as I as I hope I've 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.360 done in my books to help explain it to an audience. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.200 So I have a bit of a snarky sort of 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:00.960 take on when it comes to sort of are what 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.279 I think is our ignorance about the Middle East, which 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.919 is and it comes from being a Jewish American, and 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.760 I'm not a very religious person, but I get I've 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.160 always felt I've never felt as if that part of 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.320 my identity mattered until a whole bunch of other people 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.800 want to tell me it's supposed to matter, and I 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.480 get sort of if I get my back up, I 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.360 joke anytime I hear the word populism, whether it's left 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.560 wing populism or right wing populism, I know the first 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:30.680 thing they're doing is coming for the Jews. But you know, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:36.880 I realize in sort of the in the this began 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:41.040 before October seventh, but certainly post October seventh, the amount 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:45.960 of people that didn't understand the Middle East pre nineteen 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:50.680 forty eight, and that really the biggest problem we had 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.280 generationally was and then it realized, well, how are we 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.840 taught World War One and World War Two. And I 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.280 think about World War One and we're I'm guessing you 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.400 had a similar grade school experience that I did. You're 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.400 a little bit older than me, but we basically, I think, 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:11.600 you know, probably that fairly consistent education there, which was 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:13.880 we're taught World War One through the prison of World 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.960 War Two. You know, we screwed Germany too much, made 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.600 him angry and it started the Second War. We never 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.000 talk about the other part of World War One, which 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.800 was the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the fact 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.040 that in some ways, and a couple as I joke, 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.680 a couple of drunk Frenchmen and Brits decided to draw 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.559 straight lines and say you get a country you don't 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:33.360 you do? 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:33.800 You know? 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.880 And all of a sudden it's the United States. It's 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.679 left to deal with this mess. Again I'm being it's 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.440 a bit of a snark, but it's it does get 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.640 at what I think is the root issue of our 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.920 misunderstanding of a lot of the Middle East issues, which 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.679 is not understanding how it all broke apart after the 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:53.520 Ottoman Empire. 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.760 Yeah, exactly. My pet peeve is that Americans in general, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:02.200 Westerners especially Americans, had this telescopic view toward the Middle East, 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.520 and we need a microscopic view, and the telescopic view 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.920 is quite prejudiced and biased in many different directions. 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.560 Incomplete, absolutely, and complete is the best description I think. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.160 Yeah, and you need that microscopic view. But in today's 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.880 especially as time has gone on, in today's media, as 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.480 you will know, and sound bites and social media and 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:25.400 so forth, people want information in small bytes and small packets, 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.240 and even foreign leaders, you know, they want that one 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.080 page brief, less than one page brief instead of reading 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:35.080 a whole executive summary, even of a particular problem, especially 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.319 a country like the United States, which has so many 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:42.640 issues all over the world and responsibilities and objectives. If 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.320 we're a president, to focus on one single thing and 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.040 really understand it is very very unusual unless they have 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.000 a background in it. But yeah, I mean the Automan Empire. 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.920 You talk about the two drawing Frenchmen that Jordan was 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.120 always said a joke was that Winston Churchill had a 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.640 hiccup and drew that partage ordinate sticks out. But the 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.199 reality is it was to connect pipelines from the Version 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.640 Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea. So there was all strategic 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.160 reasons behind all of this. And one of the things 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.800 people understand, I think the British and the French obviously 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:15.960 allied on the Tient powers in World War One, but 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.080 they always saw each other as potential enemies. 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.839 After the war, they were competing for pieces of the 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:21.520 Middle East. 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.200 Right exactly, And so you know, Syke's Pico and all 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:28.240 these infamous secret wartime agreements were always you know, from 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.040 each side aimed at the other for what they hope 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.160 would be victory and defeating the central Powers, including the 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.640 Ottoman Empire. But you're right, I mean, the fall of 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.600 the Ottoman Empire is sort of glossed over, and it's 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:44.120 the Eurocentric orientalist view of World War One and what 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.559 happened with the artificial divisions in the Middle East. 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.000 Well, you know, it's interesting. This is also this week 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:55.040 is the anniversary of Panamanian independence, and essentially Panamanian independence 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.640 came because Teddy Roosevelt kind of deal because he wanted 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.120 to a strip of land to build animal canal. So 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.440 they basically created Panamanian independence, right, And it reminds me 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.040 of sort of how the Europeans dealt with the Middle East. 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.360 It's the same way the United States has dealt with 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.680 Latin America essentially for the last hundred years, which is 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:16.360 what can you do in the region for us, not 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.840 what can we do for you in the region. Is 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:23.000 that a simplistic view, But is that how you would 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:27.280 sort of describe sort of the Eurocentric relationship with the 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:28.640 Middle East over the last hundred years. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.079 Yeah, I thought you were going to say, not the 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.440 one hundred year but the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.160 as we were there to that coming up too, agreements, 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.320 But yeah, absolutely. I mean, all countries act in their 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.880 own national interests and if they have leverage in terms 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.600 of those interests, that are going to exercise that leverage. 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.880 And what Israel has done, you know, ever since it 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.160 came into being in nineteen forty eight, and what all 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.000 countries do the British, the French, the Americans, the Russians, 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.760 and without taking into consideration or very much consideration, the 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.400 wants and needs of the local populations other than that 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.520 which will feed their own strategic interests. And so that's 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:11.240 that's very very true. And it's you know, the countries 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.240 in the Middle East, they lack in many ways in 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.360 national identity, They lack, the rulers lack legitimacy. A lot 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.280 of that goes all the way back to the artificiality 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:21.840 of the heartland of the Middle East. 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.640 We just created monarchies right out of these tribal leaders. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:29.120 Right monarchies and so called Arab republican regimes that act 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.200 like monarchies because they want to be. You know, the 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:35.120 Mcadafi and Nasir and Mobark and Asad, they all want 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.640 to be. They all wanted to be and were in 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.439 some cases succeeded by their sons, so they turned out 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.800 to be monarchies in effect. 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:50.079 So who did you have which aside did you have 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.880 did you start to strike up I don't want to 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.679 say relationship, but sort of a conversation with. 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.640 Yeah, that was Bashar al Assad, who came to power 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:03.000 in two thousand after his father died. And you know, 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.520 I'd been going to Syria quite some time, and and 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.839 you know, I like to consider myself a Middle Eat 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.800 specialist in media trant areas, but Syria's is definitely my 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.720 number one specialty. And I traveled the ore over thirty 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.760 thirty five times over the years, and so I knew 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.319 I had a pretty good network in Syria. Particularly in 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.360 mine academics, and when Oside came to power in two thousand, 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.000 he brought academics into the government, which some fought as 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.120 you know, hope for the future, others I was. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.600 Just going to say, there was a brief period where 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.000 they thought maybe he'll be a modernizer, maybe he'll be 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:34.800 king using right, yeah. 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.080 Exactly, yeah, and or a faisal in Saudi Arabi even 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.599 the back day in the seventies, and and you know 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.280 he was young. He liked Western music, he liked Western 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.160 you know, technological toys. You know, he was a computer nerd. 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.560 And everyone was educated in London, right educated. 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.640 He received you know, he was trying to get his 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.840 what is essentially his Boord certification ophalmology in London. But 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.079 people have to remember he only spent you know, two 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.080 years in London. And even though he liked the Electric 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.160 Light Orchestra and Phil Collins and the Beatles, you know, 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.000 his upbringing was molded by, you know, being a child 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:10.880 of the ar of Israeli conflict, a child of the 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.480 super power conflict when Syria was on the side of 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.520 the Soviet Union in Russia, and most most importantly, a 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.040 child of Hafaz Alalasad, his father, who had a very 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.640 particular brand of authoritarianism in Syria. So those are the 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.720 things that shaped his worldview. And I was very interested in, 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.360 you know, his transition from enthalmologists to ruler. And so 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.840 I contacted one of these academics he brought in who 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.760 happened to be the good friend of mine, who was 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.640 in the Minister of Higher Education, and said, hey, you know, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.640 I like to write a book on him. Can I 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.320 meet with Charlasad? And that's how it all started, and 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.280 a couple of years later, in two thousand and four, 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:45.120 came into being. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.040 He's done this with a few Americans over the years, 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.200 like he seems to constantly. You know, there's there's been 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.400 a handful of Americans that I feel like I've had 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.760 that he does want to reach out to the Western side. 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:03.360 Yeah, yeah, and so timing, Yeah, when you reached out 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.160 to me in two thousand and four through his ambassador 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.160 to the United States, he was also a friend of mine. 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.080 It was not a coincidence at that time because it 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.520 was right after the US led invasion of Iraq and 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:20.080 Syria was slowly turning into a target, not slowly, actually 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.560 quickly turning into a target. Whereas before the invasion, right 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.640 after nine to eleven, American officials were saying Syria was 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.160 helping to save lies with intelligence cooperation on al Kaeda. 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:34.120 After two thousand and three, now Syria was costing American 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.440 lives because they were allowing Jahadas to go through their 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.120 country and into Iraq, which caused problems for the US 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.640 and its allies. And so, you know, I was very 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:49.080 interested in that transition, but he was interested in portraying 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.120 a more positive image just when Syrian US relations, I 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:53.960 think were deteriorating quite a bit. 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:57.000 So let's fast forward. What do you think of what's 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.280 happening in Syria right now? And what kind of faith 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:00.840 do you have in this new leader? You know, to 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:05.200 go from a you know, essentially the insurgency to the establishment, 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.160 right whether no matter your political situation, no matter your country, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:11.880 insurgents usually have a tough time governing. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.440 That is the question, isn't it? That is the one 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.400 hundred thousand dollars question. I get asked it all the time. 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.320 I ask other people who know the president much more 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:24.000 intimately than the new president, much more intimately than I do, 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.160 and I still get different responses. Because we really don't know. 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.480 As you just said, going from revolutionary to ruler is 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.800 a trying process. It's not always successful. The revolutionary can't really, 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.320 you know, rule in a way that is different from 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.840 the way that he handled things beforehand. Plus, and this 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:47.760 is throughout history. When rulers of opposition movements they come 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.440 to power, those that help them come to power want dividends. 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.200 They want you know, they want positions in the in 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.040 the government. They have a certain way of looking at things, 0:16:58.120 --> 0:16:59.280 especially if they come from. 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.920 S superpowers, what believe they should get a little little 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:03.800 extra something as. 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.560 Well all the time. Yeah, they want not just a little, 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.479 they want a lot on everything. That So Ahma Shadda, 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.719 the new president. You know, on the one hand, the 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:20.080 Israelis quite frankly, they're skeptical and after October seven, twenty 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.960 twenty three, and this mcpunker mentality that they have right now, 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.000 they're want to air in the side of caution. And 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.120 most of the Israelis I've talked to in the military 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:31.760 and politically, you know, they see that Ahma Shada's turn 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.760 toward moderation, pragmatism, wanting inclusive government is more a tactical 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.000 maneuver than something that represents a true change, and that 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.560 he's going to revert to his Jahada's roots at some point. 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.840 And yet others I've talked to that know him actually personally. 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.760 One NGO in London knew him for ten years and 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:54.040 they are convinced he is pragmatic, he has changed, you know. 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.600 They he's going to be visiting Washington a week from 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:01.000 today and meeting with Trump and they'll probably serial will 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.159 sign on to the Anti ISIS coalition, which is supposed 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:05.960 to be a big deal. But they've been helping in 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.400 terms of intelligence cooperation with the US and tracking down 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.159 Okada and ISIS operat Is when he was an indlab 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.040 for the last decade. Now, he did that because he 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.720 wanted to clear out and he helped clear out any 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.360 any opposition or a competition. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:21.639 And I was just going to say, this is a 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.560 classic case. The enemy of my enemy is my ouse 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:24.680 exactly exactly. 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.800 But we've had this relationship with him for a while 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:32.119 that has been tactical and opportunistic. I mean all leaders 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:36.000 are opportunistic, they want power, they're egotistical. But if it 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.960 could be molded, and it couldn't way, so to speak, 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.320 in a way their population stability than Okay. 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.600 There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.760 there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.600 law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've recovered 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.840 twenty five billion dollars for more than half a million clients. 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.960 It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing, 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.080 just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible. 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.200 Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. 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And remember all law firms are not the same, 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.080 So check out Morgan and Morgan their fee is free 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:46.760 unless they win. So the first person that popped in 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:48.840 my head when you were talking about this debate, you know, No, 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.520 he's a secret jehatis No, he's a pragmatist was air 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.480 to one. Yeah. Right, We've had the same debate about 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.280 air to one now for almost twenty years. No, he 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.280 can be dealt with. No, he's you know, at the 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:02.399 end of the day, he's still Muslim brotherhood, right Like, 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:07.520 there's this and yet you know Israel at times doesn't 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:09.399 want to deal with them. But he's a necessary you know, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.560 he's also the head of a country that's a member 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.639 of NATO, right, Like, there's this necessity. How would you 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.280 characterize the new leader of Syria through the prism of Erdiwan? Like, 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:25.560 is he is at the same type of unsureness about 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.280 where their real biases lie. 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:30.520 Yeah? I think so. I mean, I think we're on 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:35.159 the road to a sectarian majoritarian state where his Sunni faction, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:42.480 particularly a much more conservative branch of Sunni Islam, are 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.200 going to dominate things in Syria. 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.520 If the actually does this mean he's going to get 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:49.800 a lot of funding from MBS ANDBZ and oh the 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:51.200 entire Oh yeah, as. 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.080 He did as they did during the opposition times. And well, 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:55.960 you know, this reminds me you were talking about. This 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.800 reminds me nineteen fifties, when you're talking about history in 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.400 the Middle East. There was a wonderful political science term 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.119 that the US applied to these authoritarian leaders. It was 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:09.919 called transitional authoritarianism, where you know, we support these guys 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:13.679 because they support US interests with military, political aid to plays. 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:15.720 It's why they all hate us. In Latin America, we 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.239 always supported whoever was on our side, not whether they 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:19.480 were spading democrats. 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:21.919