1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,240 Speaker 1: Earlier this month, the New York Times reported that the 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Trump the Trump campaign officials had had multiple contacts with 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: Russian intelligence agents during the two thousand sixteen presidential campaign. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: The next day, Deputy FBI, the deputy FBI director, told 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: White House Chief of Stance Rants Previous that the report 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: was not true, and FBI Director James call Me allegedly 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: repeated that to previous. Later, the White House pushed back 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: hard to discredit the time story, and, according to The 9 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Washington Post, had put the CIA director and other senior 10 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: intelligence officials, as well as senior members of Congress, in 11 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: touch with the media to undercut the story, and after 12 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: the FBI had refused to go on the record. Was 13 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: all of this legal and proper? Was it okay for 14 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: the FBI to tell the White House about the status 15 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: of its investigation into this matter? Here to talk with 16 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: us about that? As Matt Miller, a partner at Villa 17 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: Novo who was the director of the Office of Public 18 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: Affairs at the Department of Justice during the Obama administration, Matt, 19 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: what are the rules in the federal government about FBI 20 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: contact act with the White House on pending investigations? So 21 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: there are a couple of things that are relevant here. 22 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: One is that the FBI, under longstanding practice that applies 23 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: not just to the White House but anyone that they're investigating. 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: They don't you know, they don't inform the subjects of 25 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: their investigations. Uh, what is true in a news story, 26 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: what's not true? So if you're a major bank that's 27 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: being investigated by the FBI and the New York Times 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: writes the story and you call them up, they won't 29 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: tell you, oh no, that that thing you read the 30 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: story is not true, because they don't do that. And 31 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: of course, in this case, the White House, Um, the 32 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: White House may not be a subject of investigate this investigation, 33 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: but we know that the president's campaign associates are uh, 34 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: and the president's campaign is and potentially the President himself 35 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: and their number of people in that White House who 36 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: worked on the campaign. So there's a there's a problem 37 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: there with the FBI communicating with them. And then it's 38 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: it's compounded by the fact that they're long standing Department 39 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: of Justice guidelines that say that that say, any contact 40 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: between the Justice Department, of which the FBI is a component, 41 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: and the White House are supposed to be funneled through 42 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: very prescribed channels, typically through the White House Council's office 43 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: lawyer and a lawyer, UM, to make sure there is 44 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: no communication about an investigation, because then there's the potential 45 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: for the White House to tamper with that investigation, to 46 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: try to influence it, to try to pressure the FBI. Matt, 47 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: do we know from the FBI that the FBI actually 48 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: did tell the White House things about the investigation or 49 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: is that coming from the White House. It's all coming 50 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: from the White House. Um. And and that is a 51 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: problem here because, UM, I don't think this is a 52 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: partisans thing to say the White House. This white House 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: has a credibility problem. There are a number of, you know, 54 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: documented instances in which the White House has said things 55 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: that turn out later to not be true. So it's 56 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: been reported that that, um, the direct deputy It's been 57 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: reported from the White House to reporters that the deputy 58 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: director said these reports were bs. Those were the quote, 59 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: UM they used. We don't know if that's exactly what 60 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: they said. It could be that there was some minor 61 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: thing that they would quibble with in that New York 62 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: Times story, but that doesn't mean, uh, the entire story 63 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: was wrong. Or the import of the story was wrong, 64 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: and the FBI so far has neither commented on it 65 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: on the record, nor if you look at the reporters 66 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: that are coming this closely, they're not even really getting 67 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: a lot of background guidance from the bureau. Well, Matt, 68 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: if this is a Department of Justice guidelines, you have 69 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: a new Attorney General in place, you have a new 70 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: president and a new White House Chief of Staff and 71 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: all the rest of it in the administration, couldn't they 72 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: have just changed the rules if they wanted to. Well, 73 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: they could, but as far as we know, they haven't. Um. 74 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: They have made no indication that they withdrew um those guidelines. Um. 75 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: But you know that is a big underlying problem. You know, 76 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: there is a longstanding practice that d o J is independent, 77 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: that the president can't tell or the President doesn't tell 78 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: the Attorney General who to prosecute, and by the same 79 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: token doesn't tell the Attorney general. Here's what you shouldn't 80 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: invest the gate. But it's not the Constitution anywhere, it's 81 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: not a law, it's not even in a regulation. It's 82 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: just long standing norm. Because that's what prevents this from 83 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: becoming a banana republic. Um. But if the if the 84 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: Attorney General were to, you know, withdraw those guidelines and 85 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: institute nuance. He certainly could, but it would be a 86 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: major weakening of the rule of law, and I think 87 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: something that that people would really look at with great 88 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: concern about what it means for the future of independent 89 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: law enforcement. Matt, you have several committees investigating this, and 90 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: the Senate Intelligence Committee is one of those. The top 91 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: Democrat on that, Mark Warner, warned the panel's chairman over 92 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: reports that the Republican work with the White House to 93 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: try to squash the negative stories about Russian interference in 94 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: last year's elections, calling it a threat to the integrity 95 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: of the congressional probe. Is there any way that Congress 96 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: can investigate this with the number of Republicans that are 97 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: to be involved in different ways? Or should there be 98 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: an independent investigator? You know, I think there ought to 99 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: be an independent investigator. I've long thought that the Intelligence Committee, 100 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: even if it could conduct a fair investigation, isn't a 101 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: great channel because, um what, a lot of what they 102 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: do is classified. At the end of the day, if 103 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: they write a report, they're dependent upon the White House 104 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: and the Administration to tell them what they can declassify. 105 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: I think it needs to be uh an independent commission. 106 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: And and that's even that that's even more true now 107 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: when you see reports that the person the chairman of 108 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: that committee who is supposedly UH investigating the this this 109 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: um UH this potential potential collusion between the campaign and 110 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: the Russian government is taking direction from the White House 111 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: about how to manage stories. It gives you, you know, 112 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: gives me, and I think it gives a lot of 113 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: other people great doubts that that investigation really is independent. 114 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: And the only solution to that is taken out of 115 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: the hands of that chairman UM and put it into 116 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: an independent mission. Well, Matt, back to the UH the 117 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: question of how this should have been handled. You know, 118 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,559 Speaker 1: you mentioned that this White House has credibility problem. Certainly 119 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: the press doesn't seem to believe them right now on 120 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: a lot of things, and so when they're faced with 121 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: a situation like this, where there let's assume for the 122 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: moment the Times report was incorrect, is it a little 123 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: unfair to say, well, you just have to you know, 124 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: you can't get the folks who actually know about this 125 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: involved to deny it. Wouldn't that be you know, unfair 126 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: and frustrating for the White House. Well, so here here 127 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: is the the issue with that. UM, yes, that's true, 128 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: but that's that's that's largely the case when you're um, 129 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: uh say you, when you are the subject of an 130 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: investigation by independent law enforcement. You may think a report 131 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: is not true, but no one else in the universe 132 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: can then go to the FBI and direct them to 133 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: go out and correct it. The problem is, you know 134 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: what what is known in military circles here is command influence. 135 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: You know, the FB, the director of the FBI ultimately 136 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: can be fired by the president. UH. The head of 137 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: the CIA and one of the other people who apparently 138 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: got on the phone with reporters can be fired with 139 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: the president. The White House mediates disputes between UH, the 140 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: FBI and the CIA and other intelligence agencies. So there's 141 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: a reason they're supposed to be independent from the White House, 142 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: UH is so that there cannot be this sort of 143 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: pressure and influence that leads them to doing something UM 144 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: that they should not do. Well, but we're about at 145 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: a time. I want to thank UH Matt Miller from Viennovo, 146 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: partner of Vienova from being for being here on Bloomberg Law. 147 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: That's it for this edition of Bloomberg Law. Will be 148 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: back tomorrow thanks to our technical director Chris Tracomy and 149 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: our producer David Sutterman. Coming up on Bloomberg Radio, Bloomberg 150 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: Markets with Carol Masser and Corey Johnson. Carol, what have 151 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: you got coming up? What do we talk about? We're 152 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about a company that makes 153 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: video games with some cool properties. Also gotta talk about 154 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: Warren Buffett with his investor letter over the weekend. Get 155 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: a lot to say. He always has a lot to say, 156 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: doesn't it. And we all listen, don't we. That's right, 157 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: that's coming up straight ahead on Bloomberg Radio. This is 158 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: Bloomberg