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Speaker 1: How did you know that these guys were looking to

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Speaker 1: ambush us? And he goes, oh, one of them was

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Speaker 1: my cousin. So we saw the guy in months later

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Speaker 1: and he just mentions off to the side. I says, oh,

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Speaker 1: my sister got her leg blown off. Yeah, well, people

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Speaker 1: know that I'm working with you, And he says, in

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Speaker 1: just this one morning, I had malaria and my sister

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Speaker 1: walked out and they put a mind down, and later

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Speaker 1: I heard through my cousins that it was meant for me.

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Speaker 1: And then several months later he was assassinated. I'm John

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Speaker 1: Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea.

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Speaker 2: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years,

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Speaker 2: living undercover all around the world.

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Speaker 1: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I

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Speaker 1: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: Although I don't usually look at it this way, we

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Speaker 2: created conspiracies.

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Speaker 1: In our operations. We got people to believe things that

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Speaker 1: weren't true.

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Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the

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Speaker 2: news almost every day.

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Speaker 1: We'll break them down for you to determine whether they

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Speaker 1: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Mission Implausible fears. I feel a little bit

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Speaker 2: of guilt because I tried to shame Adam by using

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Speaker 2: his wife as leverage, and it's had an impact.

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Speaker 3: It's been a busy summer. I have some things going on,

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Speaker 3: but I missed some tapings and you called me out

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Speaker 3: through the show directly to my wife, and Jen let

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Speaker 3: me know, and I was like, would be really good

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Speaker 3: on this show, Jen Banburry, So can I introduce you

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Speaker 3: John and Jerry to Jen Vanburry?

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Speaker 1: Please do hi?

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Speaker 4: Gentlemen, who gen.

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Speaker 1: First mistake?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, she's already got low standing.

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Speaker 3: Aside from that, she is not someone who likes whatever

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Speaker 3: I do. She will let me know when she thinks

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Speaker 3: it's not that great.

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Speaker 5: And Adam makes a ton of crap that I'm like

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Speaker 5: and I tell him so, but.

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Speaker 3: She I think, Jen, you're like the biggest fan of

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Speaker 3: this show. You love the show, not because of me.

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Speaker 4: I am a fan.

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Speaker 5: Yep, I already have the Jerry John bobbleheads.

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Speaker 3: We met on the set of Friends in nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 3: although we were both with other people. Her husband at

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Speaker 3: the time wrote for Friends, and my girlfriend at the

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Speaker 3: time had a friend who wrote for Friends, so we

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Speaker 3: met as friends and then five years later, I mean,

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Speaker 3: we had hit it off and would hang out every

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Speaker 3: once in a while. She was much more impressed by

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Speaker 3: my girlfriend at the time than by me. She was

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Speaker 3: really cool, Nancy Updyke of this American life. And then

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Speaker 3: five years later Jen was single. I was single, and

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Speaker 3: I was living in Iraq, and Jen, after a career

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Speaker 3: as a novelist and fiction writer playwright, was doing journalism

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Speaker 3: and came out to Iraq and we fell in love

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Speaker 3: in the romantic city of Baghdad.

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Speaker 4: For us, it's amazing.

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Speaker 5: We went from barely knowing each other to living together

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Speaker 5: within twenty four hours.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, it's probably hard to find like your own place

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Speaker 2: there in Begdad.

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Speaker 5: When Adam was like, oh, no, you can just crash

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Speaker 5: with me and it'll be fine, And I went there

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Speaker 5: thinking that I was not interested in anything else except

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Speaker 5: a crash pad. But I got to say very quickly,

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Speaker 5: and I'm sure you guys have experienced this. When you're

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Speaker 5: in a situation like that, it's it's a great way

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Speaker 5: to date somebody because you know right away, oh, this

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Speaker 5: is the kind of person that I can trust in

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Speaker 5: a really fucked up situation, And like you see people

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Speaker 5: in a slightly different way. I think we talked a

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Speaker 5: lot in Iraq about how the people that we gravitated

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Speaker 5: to and spend time with were the ones who we

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Speaker 5: knew we could count on if something bad happened, and

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Speaker 5: that's not true for everybody in that environment. Do you

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Speaker 5: guys feel like there's a relationship shorthand I don't even

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Speaker 5: mean romantic relationships, but like a relationship shorthand when you're

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Speaker 5: in a pretty potentially dangerous situation.

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Speaker 1: In Cia, we do traditional espionage where we look for secrets,

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Speaker 1: but in war zones we do the same thing but

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Speaker 1: under very different circumstances. And there really is something where

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Speaker 1: you create these bonds of affection even inside of three

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Speaker 1: or four months, that will last year in your entire life.

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Speaker 1: And just one story, I was in a side abod

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Speaker 1: and we got rocketed. Siren's goes off, which means within

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Speaker 1: the next thirty seconds we're gonna have rockets hitting the camp.

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Speaker 1: And we had a big sewage pipe buried in the

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Speaker 1: ground which you could like crawl into, And so the

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Speaker 1: thing goes off and I'm the last one out the

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Speaker 1: door and the sewer pipe. It's full of people, but

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Speaker 1: I'm getting in that thing, so I crawl in and

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Speaker 1: I end up sitting on this guy's lap and we're

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Speaker 1: stuck there for the next hour, and of course the

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Speaker 1: jokes start. So two years later, I'm in London Station

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Speaker 1: and I'm wearing a suit and I'm with a division

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Speaker 1: chief and we're walking through the hallways of London Station

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Speaker 1: and this door opens and this guy leaps out because

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Speaker 1: he's forgot we're in London, and he leaps onto my back, piggyback,

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Speaker 1: and he starts yelling, yeah, right, and then he realizes that, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're not in Afghanistan anymore. And he could often say, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's shook hands properly and things like that. So there's

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Speaker 1: a sort of those two modes of existence. You basically

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Speaker 1: you shit in a slip trench together, which brings you

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Speaker 1: together and you're scared, and then being in London or

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Speaker 1: Paris or Berlin very different existences.

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Speaker 2: There's a danger for us in war zones and for

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Speaker 2: families because in that heightened environment where everybody's in one place,

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Speaker 2: you might be living in a shipping container or whatever,

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Speaker 2: those people become like your immediate family. You're sharing something

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Speaker 2: that the people back home don't share. And you don't

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Speaker 2: have your family with you like we often do, Like

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Speaker 2: when Jerry and I work overseas, usually our family's with us.

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Speaker 2: But if you're in Bagdad, or if you're in Cobble,

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Speaker 2: or if in one of these other places, you're with

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Speaker 2: this group all the time in a really tense situation,

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Speaker 2: and relationships startup that probably are pretty intense.

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Speaker 1: And they're the only ones who understand you. So there

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Speaker 1: are war zone romances and they generally don't work out

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Speaker 1: well because you go back to the real world. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had that. John and I were both in leadership

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Speaker 1: positions and really tough places, and we would watch like

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Speaker 1: a fair start, a fair stop, marriages come to a

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Speaker 1: begin and end there. It is a thing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we definitely know a ton of journalists whose relationships

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Speaker 5: don't survive one of them getting posted to a war zone,

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Speaker 5: because I think precisely that. I mean, sometimes they get

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Speaker 5: involved with other people, and then other times it's just

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Speaker 5: a question of they get back home and it's like

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Speaker 5: you've learned a foreign language and you get back there

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Speaker 5: and your partner doesn't speak that language and you're having

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Speaker 5: a hard time figuring it out. So I went over

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Speaker 5: there thinking I was going to stay just a couple

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Speaker 5: of weeks and do some freelancing back when freelancing was

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Speaker 5: possible in that environment. And then we fell in love

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Speaker 5: and we decided that we were going to stay there

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Speaker 5: for a while, but in the interim go back to

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Speaker 5: the US for a month or so so that I

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Speaker 5: could like pack up my apartment, put stuff in storage,

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Speaker 5: and back in New York.

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Speaker 4: We really didn't like each other as much.

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Speaker 5: It was a struggle, and we went and spent some

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Speaker 5: time in this farmhouse in Nova Scotia that I had

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Speaker 5: used to go to, and we were just not on

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Speaker 5: the same page at all, and thinking like, oh, this

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Speaker 5: might be the end of it. And I just started saying,

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Speaker 5: we got to get back to a rock. Now, Let's

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Speaker 5: get back to a rock, because if this relationship is

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Speaker 5: going to work, that's where we need to be.

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Speaker 1: And I was serious that when I first started coming

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Speaker 1: back from Afghanistan, my marriage took some real hits in it.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until later, going back and forth that

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Speaker 1: we started figuring out what was wrong and what happens

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Speaker 1: is one partner, so my wife is home with the

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Speaker 1: three kids, and she fills your role right and she's

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Speaker 1: like taking care of finances, getting the kids to school,

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Speaker 1: and you're there's no room for you anymore. And then

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Speaker 1: you show up after three months, six months, and you're

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Speaker 1: in a place, especially if you're in a leadership position

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Speaker 1: where you're working eighteen hours a day and situations are

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Speaker 1: coming answer and you're like, yes, no tomorrow, don't do that.

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Speaker 1: That's safe, that's not safe. And then you show up

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Speaker 1: at home and because you're there inside of twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: you get in an airplane and your suddenly you're in

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Speaker 1: northern Virginia and your wife says, should we have pasta tonight?

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Speaker 1: And you're like, yes, you know, it's like maybe we

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Speaker 1: can have burgers, okay, yes, question and the babies I

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Speaker 1: was thinking of painting it bundling board blue or maybe

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Speaker 1: yes Bunny and the Moore blue. Next question, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't like you anymore. And so because you're just

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Speaker 1: in two friggin different worlds, and eventually you're like you

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Speaker 1: show up and she's yeah, let's not actually talk for

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Speaker 1: a little while. We need to like figure this out.

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Speaker 1: But when you're not used to it, and I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of soldiers and a lot of agency people

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Speaker 1: and diplomats coming out of war zones will get divorced

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Speaker 1: after that if they don't figure it out right away,

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Speaker 1: because it's a whole different way of being when you're

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Speaker 1: in a war zone.

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Speaker 4: I'm always fascinated by.

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Speaker 5: There's like the time period where whaling was a really

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Speaker 5: big New England industry and Nantucket basically became like a

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Speaker 5: matriarchy because all of the men were off on these

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Speaker 5: whaling voyages pretty much all the time. They would be

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Speaker 5: gone anywhere from six months to four years or something,

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Speaker 5: and they would get back and their families were so

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Speaker 5: happy to see them, Oh my god, you're actually alive.

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Speaker 5: We didn't know, like big celebrations blah blah blah.

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Speaker 4: And then a week.

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Speaker 5: Later the women were like, oh crap, Like, no, we

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Speaker 5: have a system and just because you're back, like you

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Speaker 5: don't get to change the whole system, and it would

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Speaker 5: cause all these big problems. And basically like they just

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Speaker 5: go out whaling again and that would solve the problem.

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Speaker 5: Both of you guys started before you had partners, Is

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Speaker 5: that right?

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Speaker 4: You both entered the CIA before.

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Speaker 1: You had that's right.

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Speaker 5: So, like, at what point in the dating process do

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Speaker 5: you let someone in on the on what your job

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Speaker 5: actually is, like, how does that work?

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Speaker 1: It'll depend. So my wife is British. When you're in

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Speaker 1: the CIA and you're dating a foreigner, it is a

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Speaker 1: whole different kettle of fish. So there's a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of different rules involved, things like whether or not you're

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Speaker 1: allowed to cohabitate, and what cohabitation what means?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: Is it three nights a week, four nights a week?

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Speaker 1: Does it mean that they have a key? Does it

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Speaker 1: mean if you spend half the night. So we're not

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Speaker 1: allowed to cohabitate, and we're not allowed to tell them

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Speaker 1: until we get permission. So when I finally proposed to

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Speaker 1: my wife, I told her, A who I really work for?

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Speaker 1: And she's, yeah, I don't really care. And I suspect

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Speaker 1: it as much because you're a rotten liar. And b

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Speaker 1: you have to take a polygraph where they're going to

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Speaker 1: ask you all sorts of intrusive questions, and of course

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Speaker 1: I wanted to sit in on the polygraph, but they

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Speaker 1: don't allow you to do that. Ask her. She lied

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Speaker 1: to me that one time.

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Speaker 4: And then they have to she had to take a

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Speaker 4: polygraph she did.

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Speaker 1: To make sure she wasn't a commy spy. It's all

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Speaker 1: counter intelligence, and so they want to know that if

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Speaker 1: you're going to bring somebody on board into the circle

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Speaker 1: of trust, that they're not that a. They're going to

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Speaker 1: stay and be they're not sent there to suborn you.

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Speaker 1: And then we have to write a letter of resignation,

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Speaker 1: which if the polygraph doesn't go well, they accept or

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Speaker 1: they say it's either her or us. It's one or

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Speaker 1: the other. And we worked it out that I said,

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Speaker 1: if they say no, I'll resign. Yeah. So we did

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Speaker 1: get married. They it all worked out and not like

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Speaker 1: I think. Six months after she became a citizen, we

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Speaker 1: were working abroad and she basically joined the agency as well,

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Speaker 1: and so she joined CIA.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 2: For us, well that's all it works for the kind

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Speaker 2: of guys that can't get an American wife because they

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Speaker 2: try to find someone overseas, because if you're my wife.

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Speaker 2: Used to work in the visa section of Moscow and

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Speaker 2: they used to have a thing for giving visa to

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Speaker 2: these Russian women that were trying to marry American men

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Speaker 2: and they would call American men American zero my hero.

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Speaker 5: Wait, but the polygraph is like across the board, no

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Speaker 5: matter who.

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Speaker 3: Not for Americans So what if she had been like

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Speaker 3: and I knew I grew up with a bunch of

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Speaker 3: people who were born in Iran, they were Iranian citizens,

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Speaker 3: but had lived in America maybe with a green card.

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Speaker 3: What if it was a more hostile country than the UK.

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Speaker 1: Oftentimes people don't get in and it's not their fault.

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Speaker 1: It's like the Iranians will pressure family members. So like

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Speaker 1: one of the issues would be if you're marrying, say

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Speaker 1: an Iranian American, one of the issues would be, like,

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Speaker 1: if you have a cousin back in around what happens

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Speaker 1: if like the Iranian Intelligence Service shows up and says

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Speaker 1: to the cousin or says to the wife, gets word

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Speaker 1: back that your cousin's going to go to jail unless

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Speaker 1: you like give us information on your husband. So they

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Speaker 1: can be put in difficult situations. So for Russia, a

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Speaker 1: Russian American, Iranian American, I think can be a little

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Speaker 1: more dicey, even if it's like your spouse is not

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Speaker 1: a spy, But can they be blackmailed?

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Speaker 5: Do you know any stories of someone failing the polygraph,

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Speaker 5: like much to the surprise of their.

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Speaker 1: One story that I really like, it was in Kosovo

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Speaker 1: and it was not in America, and it was a

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Speaker 1: British colleague am I six guy, but he was with

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Speaker 1: a coast of our girl and they she sort of

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Speaker 1: moves in with him and people could the neighbors could see,

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Speaker 1: and they were together for a while and he has

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Speaker 1: the talk with her and he said, I think we're

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Speaker 1: getting close. This is going a little too fast. I

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Speaker 1: think we need to slow this down. And she says,

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Speaker 1: you slept with me, like and people have seen, and he's, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, that's why we need to slow this down.

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Speaker 1: She goes, no, no, you've slept with me. You can't

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Speaker 1: back out of this now. But the neighbors know. I've

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Speaker 1: been here all night. And he's like, yeah, that's why

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Speaker 1: I don't think we should get married. I think we should,

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Speaker 1: And so she shorts a long story short. She takes

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Speaker 1: a butcher knife as they're arguing in his kitchen and

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Speaker 1: she sticks them in the stomach with it. She guts them,

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Speaker 1: and then she calls her parents and says he wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to marry me, and the parents are like, but

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Speaker 1: the neighbors have seen you spent the night there, and she's,

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Speaker 1: I know, should I call an ambulance and They're like,

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Speaker 1: he is a foreigner, although he has it coming. So

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Speaker 1: she does call an ambulance. They show up and he's

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Speaker 1: got a knife sticking in a butcher knife sticking in

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Speaker 1: his stomach. So they metavac him to London and he's

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Speaker 1: laying in his bed like a couple of days later

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Speaker 1: and the door opens up and in she walks, and

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Speaker 1: he's like, oh fuck, she's here to finish me off.

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Speaker 1: And she comes over. She says, hey, I'm really sorry,

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Speaker 1: but in my culture, the neighbors have seen us sleep together,

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Speaker 1: and like, my reputation is gone. I can never date

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Speaker 1: again because people know. And he's like, oh, I didn't realize,

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Speaker 1: and so she basically says I love you. He says

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Speaker 1: I love you back, and they're like, let's get married anyway.

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Speaker 1: And the British fired him because he was marrying someone

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Speaker 1: up for like attempted murder of him. So he had

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Speaker 1: to resign because he married his attempted murder who put

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Speaker 1: a butcher knife in his stomach. So this is the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing that can happen in the world of Espa.

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Speaker 5: Wow, Yeah, that does sound like truly that instinct on

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Speaker 5: his part, or it.

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Speaker 1: Would make a great brom com right, except for the

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Speaker 1: butcher knife part.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Old, I'm going to need to go to the bathroom,

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Speaker 2: so let's take a quick break and we'll be back shortly.

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Speaker 2: All right, welcome back.

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Speaker 5: By the way, I didn't forget the fact that you

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Speaker 5: said that your wife knows that you're a terrible liar.

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Speaker 4: You're a terrible liar and you're in the CIA.

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Speaker 5: Isn't like rule number one being in the CIA that

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Speaker 5: you're pretty good at lying?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, part of what we do is we

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Speaker 2: try to develop relationships with people that are are real

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Speaker 2: and deep and build trust with them. So in some

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Speaker 2: ways it's showing that empathy, showing that understanding and befriending

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Speaker 2: people that make us more successful than the fewer lies

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Speaker 2: the better essentially, And if that's part of it, sort

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Speaker 2: of ties to this whole conspiracy thing. The best conspiracy

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Speaker 2: is the ones that have some truth to them. And

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Speaker 2: so for us most of our work, you know, if

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Speaker 2: you can avoid lying is probably the smartest way to go.

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Speaker 2: And there's periods of time where you can't where you're

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Speaker 2: undercover or something sensitive it's happening, or you have to

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Speaker 2: help you skate your background or like Jerry sometimes pretended

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Speaker 2: to be a foreigner doing some work or something. In

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Speaker 2: those cases, certainly you have to lie and be good

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Speaker 2: at lying, but a lot of our work is just

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Speaker 2: the opposite.

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Speaker 1: You're like, it's a switch in your head, at least

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Speaker 1: for me, John, will you turn it on and off?

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Speaker 1: So it's and it's maybe actors have this or journalists

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Speaker 1: where you turn it on where it's like, it's my

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Speaker 1: time to be charming and to put this foot forward.

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Speaker 1: And you deal with like people outside, but what do

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Speaker 1: we deal with your family? They know what the switch

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Speaker 1: is on or off. So like the people you know

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Speaker 1: really well, colleagues or your family, they can tell when

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Speaker 1: you're like case officering, them will say. And even in

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Speaker 1: the agency, we're like, don't case officer me, Like, turn

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Speaker 1: that fucking off. I can tell you're doing the trying

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Speaker 1: to be the charming case officer. Don't do it inside.

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Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I don't know. How'd you do with

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Speaker 1: your family, John, did you.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen you guys be charming.

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Speaker 1: No, we don't never turn it on with you. That

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Speaker 1: was an easy one.

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Speaker 3: I was going to do one in Iraq because we

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Speaker 3: were there a long time and we were there most

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Speaker 3: of the first year of the US occupation, which is

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Speaker 3: very few journalists worse, and I speak Arabic pretty well,

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Speaker 3: which was unusual for journalists. And I always since I

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Speaker 3: was covering economics, I was asking a lot of boring questions,

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Speaker 3: boring questions and people would say, oh, he's CIA. That

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Speaker 3: was like, we would hear that all the time, he's CIA.

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Speaker 3: And Jen, what did you always say about me?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, there's no way he could be CIA

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Speaker 5: because he cannot keep a secret like he if there's

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Speaker 5: some like juicy tidbit that he's in on, I'll be like,

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Speaker 5: I know I shouldn't tell you.

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Speaker 3: This, but i'd have Trump's approach to national security.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so running with conspiracies and let me ask you,

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Speaker 1: you guys a question. So when I was spent my

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Speaker 1: time in Rock, the Iraqi police hid these like rods

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Speaker 1: that would go beep if you ran them over cars

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Speaker 1: or people. The police would have supposedly it could tell

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Speaker 1: whether or not you had explosives, and it came out

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Speaker 1: afterwards that it was a total con job. There was

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Speaker 1: nothing in these that either showed you had exploit or

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Speaker 1: even a weapon, or could even tell whether you had

379
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Speaker 1: something on. But the conspiracy was because people believed it.

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Speaker 1: The police could like run this wand up and down

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Speaker 1: a guy or over a car and they could just

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Speaker 1: see that the people in there started to sweat or

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Speaker 1: they look nervous, and they're like, yeah, they must have explosives.

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Speaker 3: I remember hearing about that. It was like a scam.

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Speaker 3: It was like a specific Yes, it made a funny way,

386
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Speaker 3: like a rock had all these we met these like American,

387
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Speaker 3: Australian British arms dealers who were there were these two guys.

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Speaker 3: One was Australian or New Zealand and the other was American,

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Speaker 3: And every time we saw them, we'd see them like

390
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Speaker 3: every few months. They were in a different business at

391
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Speaker 3: one point where we sell copier machines and printers, and

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Speaker 3: then the next time we sell armored cars. We're shipping

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Speaker 3: in armored cars from Germany. And then it was.

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Speaker 5: We sell like the big magnetized signs that you put

395
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Speaker 5: on the side of a car that says police.

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Speaker 4: Those guys probably made those ones for sure.

397
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Speaker 3: Yeah they would have done.

398
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Speaker 1: The guys who made them went up on charges really scamed.

399
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, they arrested them. So what they did

400
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 1: is they bribed rocky officials to spend millions and millions

401
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,479
Speaker 1: of dollars of our money by the way of American money,

402
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,000
Speaker 1: to buy these things. And then it turned out there

403
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 1: was no There was all magic, right it was. There

404
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 1: was no science to them, but everybody got rich off

405
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Speaker 1: of them, and the Iraqi police refused to give them

406
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Speaker 1: up because they success. And then the conspiracy was they

407
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Speaker 1: just telling you they don't work, but they do.

408
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Speaker 4: The double negative conspiracy.

409
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Speaker 5: Whoever came up with that obviously knew Iraq well enough

410
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Speaker 5: to know that conspiracy theories there at that time period,

411
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Speaker 5: like any conspiracy theory could get even the most outrageously

412
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Speaker 5: crazy one got a foothold so easily because of life

413
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Speaker 5: under Saddam, when they were used to being sold a

414
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 5: bill of goods, the craziest stuff all the time, and nobody.

415
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Speaker 4: Knew what to believe.

416
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Speaker 5: You can believe the word on the street as well

417
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,719
Speaker 5: as you can believe what you're hearing on the news.

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Speaker 3: Well, actually, you know for sure the official story is

419
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 3: not true. Yeah, right, so that's one hundred percent. So

420
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,680
Speaker 3: the conspiracy theory at least as a five percent shot.

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00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 5: Is that something that you guys say would ever take

422
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Speaker 5: advantage of there was a conspiracy that you know, the

423
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 5: military had satellites that could look right into somebody's home

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Speaker 5: and figure out what they had inside. And I think

425
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Speaker 5: military people actually use that to their advantage sometimes.

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Speaker 3: And the sea through glasses that they had X races

427
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 3: that the soldiers had ex respects, and we're looking at

428
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Speaker 3: naked women through their bias.

429
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Speaker 1: I don't know if we do it like organizationally, but

430
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Speaker 1: I'll be careful how I say this. I don't want

431
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Speaker 1: to reveal. So there was a senior official in a

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Speaker 1: country and he was riding through the desert in his car,

433
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Speaker 1: and he told me he was going to go do

434
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Speaker 1: this dangerous thing out in the boonies, out in the desert.

435
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 1: And I'm like, dude, if you're out there with the

436
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 1: bad guys, let's say isis and you're right, and you're

437
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 1: driving around in a convoy, you're liable to get shot

438
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 1: up by American helicopters because if you're in the you're

439
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 1: in the bad zone. And so it's three in the

440
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: morning and my phone rings and it's him. He's on

441
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: the phone and he's I'm in the desert. There's four cars.

442
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: I can hear helicopters. You gotta save me. And he says, quick,

443
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: call in to scent Com and tell them to call

444
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 1: off the jets. And and I'm like, they're going to

445
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,439
Speaker 1: find my phone. You're going to tell them where my

446
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 1: phone is. They're going to tell the jet it's not

447
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 1: going to drop the bomb. I'm going to be safe.

448
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: I said, here's what you do. Drive your car into

449
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: the desert, get out of your car, and just like

450
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: get away from your car for a couple of hours

451
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: until you don't hear noise anymore. You shouldn't be able

452
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: there to begin with. But he didn't. And he says,

453
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: just call scent Com, tell the military. So I put

454
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: the phone down see in the morning, and I went

455
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 1: back to sleep. And I woke up the next day

456
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: and he survived, and he said, oh, thank you. I knew,

457
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: he said, I would have been really scared, except I

458
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: knew you were there. And I have to say, I said, hey, man,

459
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: I'm here for you, right. I never told him. I

460
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: rollback in reality, if I really wanted to do this,

461
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: I would have had to go on into the embassy.

462
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: That would have taken time. I would have had to

463
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 1: like geared up our machines. I would have had to

464
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: have written a cable send it to Santacom. They would

465
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: have gone. It would have been like he would have

466
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 1: already been charred right by the time I got around

467
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: to sending this in or any of it. He just

468
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: assumed that we had these like superpowers like on TV.

469
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 2: I think, you know, if you're looking to accomplish a

470
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: goal or an operation, if there's a conspiracy theory that

471
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,160
Speaker 2: can benefit you, you might do it. And I wasn't involved

472
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: in this, but I remember reading about maybe it was

473
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: a sixties or seventies in Indonesia, there was a you know,

474
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 2: a real strong belief in like ghosts and things like that,

475
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 2: and I think they needed to get into a house

476
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 2: or a building or something, and they essentially made up

477
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 2: fake noise and whatever, like a ghost was there so

478
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 2: that people would leave the house and they could break

479
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: right into it. And that type of thing.

480
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 1: One of the biggest conspiracy theories, conspiracies out there that

481
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: isn't put out. There are six are British colleagues. They

482
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: are still dining out on James Bond movies right, People

483
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: who like, there's a guy in Iran he wants to

484
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: spy against his government. He's like, I'm going to go

485
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: to the British because he's seen all the James Bond movies.

486
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,959
Speaker 1: And in reality they're certainly not driving around in Austin

487
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: Martin's with machine guns in their cars. But I think

488
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: there is this grand conspiracy Mosad too. People just think

489
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: they're better than they are when in reality they're maybe good.

490
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: Their feet stink too, right, It's not like there anything.

491
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 5: Is there a room somewhere where some nerdy guys are

492
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 5: coming up with, like you know, a gun that's in

493
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 5: a lighter.

494
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's our job when we're overseas and we're trying

495
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: to accomplish something to try to come up with the

496
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 2: most the best way of doing it, and it might

497
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: be something creative or different, or involve conspiracy or whatever.

498
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: But what you're talking about is the technical services like

499
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: in the Bond. Yeah, that's what they have to And yes,

500
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: we do have what's called Office of Technical Services, which

501
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: throughout the Cold War created all kinds of cool stuff,

502
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 2: and some of it which would lead to real stuff

503
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: that we use We use now miniature cameras and phones

504
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: and things like that. Nowadays, there's so much actual commercial

505
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 2: stuff that can be used for spy purposes. We don't

506
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,239
Speaker 2: have to create it out of whole cloth as much

507
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 2: as we did in the past. But yeah, they do

508
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: disguises and they come up with things that we might

509
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: need for an operation.

510
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

511
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 5: So say, like you are on an operation and unied

512
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 5: camera inside a sandwich or whatever, is there some form

513
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 5: that you fill out and submit and.

514
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: Sadly yes, yeah.

515
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,239
Speaker 1: One point one of the oddest conversations I had and

516
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: it didn't work out, by the way, but we had

517
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: an agent with one arm, but he had a fake

518
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: prestsis on his arm and he basically said, I can

519
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,719
Speaker 1: get you this senior Al Qaeda guy. He says, what

520
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: I want you to do is make me a p

521
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: static arm that's a bomb, and like that I can

522
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 1: time and then what I'll do is I'll just leave

523
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: my arm behind when I leave, putting like Hitler putting

524
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: the bomb under the table.

525
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: Forgot your arm, right, Oh, you forgot your arm?

526
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: And so we sait it there. We're like, this is bizarre.

527
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: We're sitting around target, like, you know, how much explosives

528
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: got to be in there? What kind of explosives? And

529
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: how do we put the timing device in and the

530
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: weight of the arm and how big is it and

531
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: how much of an arm? Maybe just a hand he

532
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: could just screw his hand off and leave it there.

533
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: And yeah, we say it with these ots guys, and

534
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: they built it, and as it turns out, we never

535
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: used it, but yeah, we would do that.

536
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: Although that sandwich gun sounds like a really good you

537
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 3: guys can have that. I wanted to go back to dating.

538
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 3: So that moment of revealing, like you said, having the talk,

539
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 3: it sounds like it went pretty uneventfully. What did your

540
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: eventually to be wife think you did for a living?

541
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: The answer is she'd figured it out. We've been together

542
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: so long, and like we were going through training and

543
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: she's like, where's your parking spot at State Department? And

544
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: who's your boss? And she was in DC at the time,

545
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: and she's none of this makes sense, and.

546
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, tell her you did it first.

547
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: I told her the State Department guy he was getting hired.

548
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: So where we were being trained was this was nowhere

549
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: is near Foggy Bottom. And then we went off to

550
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: the farm and you have to explain, like why you're

551
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: gone for an entire week and you come back unshaven,

552
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: stinking because you've been out living in the woods for

553
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: a week and I don't think you've been at State Department.

554
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: You've been gone for a week, and you smell of

555
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: bo and you haven't shaved in a week. So there's yeah, there's.

556
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 2: Something Cia is known for bo.

557
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: In Washington. There's this thing where I work for the

558
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: State Department and then like real estate guys that go, oh,

559
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: what section, and then you like wink at them and

560
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: go the other State Department and they're like, oh, so

561
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: you haven't admitted it, but they all know.

562
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I met my wife in Moscow in the embassy,

563
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: and because we're under surveillance and our house is are bugging,

564
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: like our stuff, you got to maintain your cover. She

565
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 2: held her on in the political section and this and that,

566
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: but she you know, worked in the ambasshy she worked

567
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: doing immigrant visas and interviews and that type of thing.

568
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 2: But she sort of knew because inside the embassy you

569
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: could tell sort of who was who, Like the State Department,

570
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: this is awful people, but a lot of them are

571
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: sort of like they hang together, sort of nerdy or whatever,

572
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 2: and that THEIA guys look different and she would see

573
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: who I would like stand in line with and get

574
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: food at the cafeteria or something.

575
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: That thing about who you hang with is important too.

576
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: So I was in Berlin between eighty ninety ninety three

577
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: when the wall came down, and before the wall came down,

578
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: we had a softball league that we played in the

579
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: embassy and our team was mostly CIA guys, not all,

580
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: and we played teams, and we had a couple of

581
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: teams in Berlin. We had a West Berlin team and

582
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: East Berlin team. Teams would come from Poland and Czechoslovakia.

583
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: We'd play softball against each other, all all good fun.

584
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 1: But the CIA guys we all would like talk, right,

585
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: we'd hang together. And there was this South African guy

586
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: called Steve Laufer, and Steve would show up to play.

587
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: He was he worked in the embassy in West Berlin.

588
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't it was the mission, actually he worked there

589
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: and he was like almost an American and he but

590
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: he worked. He had lunch with them all the time

591
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: and he would always come and he would play softball

592
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: with us. And he was terrible because he grew up

593
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: in South Africa. He was good playing soccer, but he

594
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: couldn't throw, he couldn't bat, and everybody knew Steve got

595
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: four strikes, like the outfield would sit down when Steve

596
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: got up. He was an automatic out, like his team

597
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: would get four outs. And people were like, why is

598
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: he coming here? He's like terrible, and he didn't look

599
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: like he was having fun. And then one week he

600
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: wasn't there and I mentioned this to the RSO, the

601
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: regional security officer. I was like, where's Steve? And he

602
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: looked at me and said, shut up. And he was like, really,

603
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: like serious is if I'd known something? And He's telling

604
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: me to keep my mouth shut, And I'm like, I

605
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: don't know what's going on about. I'll keep my mouth shut.

606
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: And the next day he thought I knew, but I didn't.

607
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: The next day it was announ Steve was arrested for espionage.

608
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: He was spying for the Russians, the KGP, and his

609
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: whole point was hang out with the Americans and see

610
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: who hangs together, and just from the social interactions you

611
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,479
Speaker 1: could tell who were the CIA guys undercover. So we

612
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: weren't really good undercover for those inside the embassy.

613
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 5: When you were stationed in places not with your family,

614
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 5: I guess more like in the war zones where did

615
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 5: you stay.

616
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: Totally depends that they can talk about a rock. They

617
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: had essentially a series of shipping containers that they would

618
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: divide up and people would stay in those. I lived

619
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: in Pakistan and we lived on the embassy compound and

620
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: there was old college dorms essentially that had been in

621
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 2: apartments and people had lived on there. But then there

622
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: were also people who lived out in the community too,

623
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: in apartments or houses.

624
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 3: Because that was something we wondered about in Iraq, because

625
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 3: we just lived out. We had a house in a

626
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: neighborhood and would go shopping in the regular markets and

627
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 3: eat at restaurants and we had a fairly normal life.

628
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: We'd go over to people's Iraqis houses for her and

629
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: the Americans who were stuck in the Green Zone, we

630
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: just felt like, how did they even know Iraq at all?

631
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: How did you know? Like they didn't, Yeah.

632
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: Except CIA guys. We were always out right. Our guys

633
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: were out meeting assets like all the time and also

634
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: running black right, going out with battered up cars to

635
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: look like Iraqis. And when I was there, I would

636
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: deal with as I was declared, meaning the Iraqis knew

637
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: I was CIA, and I dealt with Iraqi officials and

638
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: the job that I had, going back to the bit

639
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: about turning it on and turning it off. I would

640
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: sit down with officials who we would we had ways

641
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: of knowing what they really thought, and there would be

642
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: instances where we knew, like the Iraqi official I'm sitting

643
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: down across from that he was discussing with Shea militia's

644
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: whether or not to murder me, like a couple of

645
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: hours before, And it wasn't oh no, don't kill Jerry.

646
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: It was the US is giving us this money, or

647
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: this would look bad or they might think I had

648
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: something like maybe another time or another way. Because when

649
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: you leave the embassy and you're going to like that ministry,

650
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: you've got to go through all these checkpoints, and some

651
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: of the checkpoints are manned by Shea militias, not by

652
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: government forces, or you're not sure who's manning them. And

653
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: you're sitting in these vehicles and all they need to

654
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: do is put an RPG into you and sort of

655
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: like is this the right time to kill the Americans?

656
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: And they would discuss this, and then you would sit

657
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: down with this guy and pretend you didn't know this,

658
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: talk about turning it on, how's the wife, how's the family? Oh,

659
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: and then you would offer them assistance to fight Isis.

660
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: And of course, because they're Shia, they actually want the

661
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: money to actually fight Isis because they hate the Sunnies.

662
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: But they're also Shia working very closely with the Iranians,

663
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: and so we're both using each other to fight Isis.

664
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: But you know this guy is also your mortal enemy

665
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: and he's like willing to kill you. So everybody's lying

666
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: to everybody, and it's just like the way it is.

667
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: They would never like a journalist, of course, but they

668
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: would light to us. Yeah, right.

669
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 5: Actually, what we something that we started doing a bunch

670
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 5: was we would meet and befriend people in the CPA

671
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 5: who lived in the Green Zone and didn't really have

672
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 5: an opportunity to get out at all, and we would

673
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 5: invite them over for dinner. We would smuggle them out

674
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 5: for dinner. We would get them royally drunk, like as

675
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,479
Speaker 5: drunk as we possibly could, off the record, and we

676
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 5: did always obey that. We would just get them to

677
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 5: like explain all the incredibly crazy shit that was happening

678
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 5: that we knew that was happening anyway, but it was

679
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 5: nice to hear it confirmed by people from inside.

680
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: We'll need those names.

681
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 4: We were drunk too, I don't remember any.

682
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: Names here go.

683
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: One of the worst conspiracies I heard was when I

684
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: first went to Afghanistan, and I was there like in

685
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: March of two, two thousand and two, so it was

686
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: like the third or fourth wave, and we met these

687
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: Afghans and we really needed their help, right, And these

688
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: are tod Jeeks up in the northern Afghanistan and they

689
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: came to us and they said, hey, in our culture,

690
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: we venerate Alexander the Great because he went through He

691
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: went through Jalalabad and on his march into India, and

692
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: he said, there's something that we have been hiding from Taliban.

693
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: It is a suit of golden armor that we've hidden

694
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: in the cave, and we've hidden it for all these years.

695
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: It's like out of an Indiana Jones movie. And if

696
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: you pay us like three thousand dollars, we will go

697
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: up because we've been hiding it for song. But we

698
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: need to be recompensed for this. We will get the

699
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: armor and we will bring it down and we will

700
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: give it to the museum and Cobble and they're like

701
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: looking at you, like is he buying it? And you're

702
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: thinking like this is like the dumbest conspiracy, like, and

703
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: I think we actually went into it. We actually gave

704
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: them the money, but like five hundred bucks, so we

705
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: didn't laugh in their face because we needed their help

706
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: for all these other things and we didn't want to

707
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: like make them think like we think they're liars, although

708
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: we knew they were, and so we did give them something.

709
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: And of course, surprisingly the suit of armor never shows up.

710
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: But I was yeah, but it was like they'd seen

711
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: too many Indiana Jones movies and they wondered just how

712
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: gullible we are. But we couldn't say fuck you, we're

713
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: never talking to you again, because they had guns and

714
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: they were important to us. So yeah, okay, we'll go

715
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: with this. But writing this up afterwards is like I

716
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 1: paid five hundred dollars not really for a suit of

717
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: like golden armor from Alexander the Great. Okay, let's take

718
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: a break from the craziness just for a minute or two.

719
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: All right, I hope you found that time productive. Welcome back.

720
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 5: You guys were saying that, in fact, lying is not

721
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 5: necessarily a skill that you have to use a whole

722
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 5: lot the questions that I had was, is there a

723
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 5: skill that you've come to recognize is really important to

724
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 5: have in your job that when you first got into it, it.

725
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 4: Never would have occurred to you that you needed it.

726
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: Basically figuring shit out. We are presented with these problems

727
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: like I don't know how to solve this, and your

728
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: job is to like figure it out. Dealing with ambiguity.

729
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: So okay, there's no book that says what do you

730
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: do when an Afghan ally comes to you and wants

731
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars for a suit of golden armor that

732
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: you know doesn't exist. And the end of the line

733
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: is what is your mission? What are you trying to accomplish?

734
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: A year out? What is the USG trying to accomplish?

735
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: What is CIA's mission? And you try to subsume it

736
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: within that and try to do it. And one last

737
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: thing on the not lying part is what really counts

738
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: as when you sit down with somebody and you look

739
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: at them and say what you're doing is important. I

740
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: veil you what you're doing and I can keep you

741
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: alive that you have to mean. You can't lie. Then

742
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: you've got to really mean it and don't lie on

743
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: that part, right, It's like I will keep you and

744
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: your family safe. And if you can say that, all

745
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: the rest of the stuff about your cover doesn't really matter.

746
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 2: Or so it's it's dealing being comfortable, dealing with ambiguity

747
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: and operating the gray. In fact, I can remember a

748
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: lot of people that came into the training that were marines,

749
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: seem to former marines seem to have a tough time

750
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 2: because they wanted like an answer, right, is it this

751
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: way or that way? And the answer is when you

752
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: go through training, it's as well, it depends. It depends

753
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: on the person the issue that is what's happening. So

754
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 2: we're training people, you're looking for people who have like

755
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: a really honed sense of judgment. They're comfortable in foreign languages,

756
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 2: living overseas, learning foreign cultures. They're able to develop deep

757
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: relationships and gender trust with people. They like people. They

758
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: got to be good listeners. They have to have a

759
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: facility of foreign languages. They have to have a sense

760
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: of spatial awareness and ability to operate in the street

761
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: and see what's happening and done that. They have to

762
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: build a right effectively and be comfortable in foreign languages

763
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: and be up to data on political, diplomatic, scientific, and

764
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: military issue. So it's a variety of things, but the

765
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 2: most important one is the one I think Jerry said

766
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 2: is you just got to be comfortable. Each situation is different,

767
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: each person is different, each person is motivated differently, and

768
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: so it's just yeah, it's operating in the gray.

769
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: Although you also have this huge bureaucracy that you have

770
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,919
Speaker 3: to be true to, like these operate within.

771
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: That's part of the gray too, is learning to deal

772
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: with your bureaucracy. You can be handstrung by it and

773
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: ossified by it, but there are ways of doing things

774
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: like yeah, I'm not going to write that up. Is

775
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: like Washington doesn't need to know that because they won't misunderstand.

776
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: But there's also one one thing Jenda I want to

777
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: throw in is you have to and then I know

778
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: this sounds really weird, but you have to believe in

779
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: the mission. There's almost a missionary zeal. You're not going

780
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 1: to put your life on the line in war zones.

781
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: You're not going to take your family into places with

782
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: disease and poisonous snakes if you don't actually believe you're

783
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: doing a good thing. That with all the warts and

784
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: all the mistakes and missteps you make, you think you're

785
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: act making the world a better place. And I really

786
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: thought that. I still do. I think the agency has

787
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: fucked up a lot, but by and large, we were

788
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: trying to do the right thing in a really gray

789
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 1: and often brutal world.

790
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 5: See that's so interesting because the soldiers that we spend

791
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,479
Speaker 5: time with in Iraq, and I knew this was the case,

792
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 5: but hearing it from them, it really felt different.

793
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 4: Which is like.

794
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 5: Most of them, even if they had, say, signed up

795
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 5: because of nine to eleven whatever, they weren't ideologues, Like

796
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 5: almost every single one had that attitude of I am

797
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 5: here to help make sure that my buddy next to

798
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 5: me doesn't get killed.

799
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 4: Like I think the military.

800
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 5: Really ingrains that in them because they realize that it

801
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 5: actually works better to do it that way than with

802
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 5: the ideological stuff. But yeah, you guys are not in

803
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 5: that position, so you really do have to be true believers.

804
00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: No, I think we take very seriously about informing policy

805
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 2: makers about what's really happening in the places and the

806
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: issues that really matter. I mean, I think we take

807
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 2: great pride in fact providing information that is more nuanced

808
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: or more accurate than what politicians are saying they think

809
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 2: is happening in places and running really important spies and

810
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: really important places that are sharing information that can save

811
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: American lives or help make American policy better. That stuff

812
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: really is important. It matters to people. And so when

813
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 2: you have like a spy you're dealing with and that

814
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: person is like risking their life and they're in and

815
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 2: a really important place, and the information is going right

816
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 2: to people who pay attention to it in high places,

817
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: that stuff becomes addictive.

818
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: It is, And for me it was this coin of

819
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: love and hate. I viscerally hated authoritarian governments, dictators and

820
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: isis and I mean because you see what they do

821
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: isis al Qaeda, the Russian security for us is what

822
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: Iran does. I see them as something that is bad

823
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 1: for mankind. It's a bad thing to go down road.

824
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: And I also think that America, for all its faults

825
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: and representative democracy and the ideals that we strive for

826
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: in the Constitution, is an overall good for the world.

827
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: People should make their choices. And so I was patriotic,

828
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: but I was also like, I believe in representative democracy,

829
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: and I just remember the first time I went into

830
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: East Berlin and saw the Berlin Wall and the old

831
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: days and what was on the other side and fear,

832
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: And I remember I went to Czechoslovakia once in the

833
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: old days and people were like afraid to talk to you.

834
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: It's really hard for Americans to understand that people look

835
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: over their shoulders like before they like even talk to you,

836
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: and they might lower their voice. We never do that,

837
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: and it's like, this is like fucking awful that people

838
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: are living a lie and you get to fight against that.

839
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: And that was very heavy for me.

840
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 5: So was there for either of you guys. There have

841
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 5: to have been one or more moments where you were

842
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 5: in a situation where you just seemed like something had

843
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 5: gone completely tits up, as a British say, and maybe

844
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 5: in a seriously dangerous way.

845
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: So there's dangerous to our asset. So we have diplomatic community.

846
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: So in most places, the worst that's going to happen

847
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: you is they're going to just beat the shit out

848
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: of you, and then if you're caught and they're going

849
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: to kick you out of the country or your reputation

850
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: is shattered, right because your op wasn't secure enough for

851
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: whatever reason. In war zones. It's more than that. It's

852
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: people die and in front of you, like when you

853
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: get it wrong and what you do about it. There

854
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: is one thing. It was we were working with the

855
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: US military in Afghanistan and we had recruited a source

856
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 1: and we're driving down this narrow road in this valley

857
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: and our set phone rings and the source says, where

858
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: are you. We explain where we were, and he says, oh,

859
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: there's forty people up ahead of you and they're going

860
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: to kill you all and they're like a mile and

861
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: a half ahead of you. I'm glad I got you

862
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: when I did, like fucking a And so we called

863
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: in Apache helicopters and they were there and everybody scattered

864
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: and we were able to get through and thought, oh,

865
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: this went really well. And the asset came in and

866
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: the military said, hey, we made it. Nobody got hurt.

867
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,479
Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, you guys were really lucky, says

868
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: the Afghan and I were like, no, we weren't really lucky.

869
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 1: We had you, and he goes, no, you were lucky

870
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: because you drove over this huge ied. But the guy

871
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: with the command detonator also ran away, so like, you

872
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: guys actually drove over this huge ied that they put

873
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: down in the middle of the road, and then the

874
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: land of the question is like, how did you know

875
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: that these guys were looking to ambush us? And he goes, oh,

876
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: one of them was my cousin Wall. So we saw

877
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: the guy a month later and he just mentions off

878
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: to the side, he says, oh, my sister got her

879
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 1: leg blown off. Like what he says, Yeah, well, people

880
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 1: know that I'm working with you. And so every morning

881
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: he would go to the sluice gates and open the

882
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 1: gate for the let water go through for the irrigation thing,

883
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: and he says, in just this one morning, I had

884
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: malaria and my sister walked out and they put a

885
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: mind down and they blew her leg off. And later

886
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: I heard through my cousins that it was meant for me.

887
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: And so I'm like, oh, my god, your sister lost

888
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: her length because of working with us, and he's, oh,

889
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to. And then several months later he was assassinated.

890
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: So Afghan refugees come into the US here, and I

891
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: know Jadie Vance apparently had said, oh, they're all interpreters,

892
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: and every Afghan coming here is like a lot of

893
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: these guys have given their lives, their family members' limbs,

894
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: and like, this is something that years later you sit

895
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: and think about, did I do something wrong? Should I

896
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: have even associated with him? Even though it saved my life,

897
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: it cost him his life.

898
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 2: A lot of people ask us it's a dangerous and

899
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: the anxiety I had was it's not. We're not soldiers,

900
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: we're not in fighting all the time. In fact, we're

901
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: trying to stay away from situations where there's kinetic activity.

902
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: We're trying to give soldiers information to keep them safe,

903
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: to make them more effective. But like Darry said that

904
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 2: the guilty anxiety that I feel is to that person

905
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 2: who's providing it really important information, who is risking their lives.

906
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: Because if you're an Iranian or a Russian or a

907
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 2: Chinese person who's committing treason against their own country, it's

908
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: that person who's providing the information that's putting themselves and

909
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: their family at risk. And if I do anything that

910
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: gets them caught, that's what I worry about. So if

911
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 2: I'm out and I'm trying to make sure I don't

912
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: have surveillance, and I'm trying to go to make a

913
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: meeting with them, and I want to be prepared. I

914
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: want to make sure that those few fleeting times when

915
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: we get together that I'm providing them the support they need.

916
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: I'm making sure I ask the key questions so I

917
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 2: don't have to come back more times than I need to.

918
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 2: I need to make sure that one hundred percent certainty

919
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 2: that there's no chance anyone sees this meeting or that

920
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: I had surveillance. That's the anxiety I feel that am

921
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 2: I doing enough to make sure this person is safe.

922
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: I just want to go because this is a big

923
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: trope in the movies, and it touches on conspiracies. That

924
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: is why, because we do care deeply for our assets

925
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: more than our own lives in a lot of ways.

926
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: And when we have a mole like inside like aims

927
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: and he gets these people killed, that is huge for

928
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: an intelligence organization that is debilitating and something that it

929
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: cuts really deep. Yeah, a conspiracy inside the agency to

930
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: spy is something that can eat an intelligence agency from

931
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: the inside out. So one thing that people might be

932
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: interested in is we're intelligence officers and both of us

933
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: have spouses and kids, and people always often ask about families.

934
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,439
Speaker 1: Most of the time, when our kids are smaller, they're

935
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: not witting of our agency affiliation, but our spouses are

936
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: and so as we are developing people who may become

937
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: agents assets later on, our spouses generally get a sense

938
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: of who it is or what we're doing. And they're

939
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: not paid for this. But one of the things with

940
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: the agency is we ask a lot of agency spouses,

941
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: male or female, like, you must come to this reception,

942
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: you must come to this party. And then before you

943
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: go in, I know about you, John, I would say

944
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: to my oftentimes my wife, I want you to go

945
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: over to that woman over there, and I want you

946
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 1: to befriend her, to see what she says about her husband,

947
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: or see if you can get invited to her house,

948
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: because then maybe I'll get invited, right Or she's friends

949
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: with somebody I want to be friends with. And our

950
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: wives e they're not paid, be they're not trained. See,

951
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 1: they may have differing views on mission and things like that.

952
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: For the most part, my spouse went along with it,

953
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: but not always. How about you is.

954
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: John, No, that's exactly true. It's sort of like the

955
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: old fashioned military spouse that's meant to entertain their generals

956
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: and this and that. Well, you're hosting people, you're going

957
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: out to dinners. You're doing things. So even on those

958
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: times when you're out at night doing things without your spouse,

959
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: you're putting pressure on your spous They're the one that

960
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: has to be there without you, taking care of kids

961
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: and getting them ready for school and doing all those

962
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 2: other kinds of things. So's it really is a team effort,

963
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 2: and used to be a lot of divorces in the agency,

964
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: I think less Now.

965
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 4: How and when do you tell your kids? How does

966
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 4: that work?

967
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 2: That is interesting in the sense that there's no regulation,

968
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: there's no rule, it's individual. Your job is to figure

969
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: out when a child is mature enough or needs to

970
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: be told for some other purpose, for security or what

971
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 2: have you. What you don't want to do is you

972
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: don't want to put that child in a tough position

973
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 2: where they now have to lie for you if they're

974
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: incapable of that. They have to go to school, and

975
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: they know that you work for CIA, and they know

976
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 2: they can't say the wrong thing or they can't tell

977
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: their friends, and you may be putting them under undue

978
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: pressure when you do that. And there's times when you

979
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: might tell one kid and not the other because one

980
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 2: kid will blab too much or what have you, because

981
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: you're essentially asking them now to lie for you.

982
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's got to be tough too.

983
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 5: I remember, like in I don't know, fourth grade or something,

984
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 5: my friend Linda said, my dad told me that he's

985
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 5: actually superman, but I can't tell. And of course, like

986
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 5: Linda was spilling the beans everywhere, like how do you?

987
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 4: That's got to be so hard.

988
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: Hoes were asking them to really trust us. So when

989
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: we say, like I'm going to disappear for a weekend

990
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: and I can't tell you where I am, or I'm

991
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: going to come home at four in the morning, shit faced,

992
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: smelling your perfume and smoke because I've been You go

993
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: with this one Russian guy. He's like, I want to

994
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: go to strip clubs and I want to be with

995
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: a Russian guy. So we go there and I'm working

996
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: and I'm paying for all the booze and some chickens

997
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: sitting on his lap and maybe sitting on mine, and

998
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: I just want to go home and watch TV. You're

999
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: out till four in the morning, and then you take

1000
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: a taxs and you go home. Of course, and then

1001
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: you've got to remember how much you spent because the

1002
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: next day you have to put in your expense account,

1003
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: like exactly what it was for and all this, But

1004
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: you get into bed with your wife at four in

1005
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: the morning and you smell the booze and you're like, yeah,

1006
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: it was working, So yeah, it's a It puts a

1007
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: lot of extra strains on a marriage because you can

1008
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: start seeing conspiracies inside of marriage that don't exist.

1009
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 5: If you are a spouse whose partner is in the

1010
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,399
Speaker 5: CIA but also has a predilection for cheating, you must

1011
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 5: just feel like gas.

1012
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 4: Lit all the time when I think about it.

1013
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 3: I've had three friends who thought their dad was CIA,

1014
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 3: and one of them it turned out it was. Our

1015
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 3: friend Scott Johnson wrote a memoir about his dad was

1016
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 3: in Afghanistan. Anyway. I have two friends who were sure

1017
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 3: their parents were CIA, but they were never told.

1018
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 1: Is that a thing you've met?

1019
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: Our other colleague, Meredith, when she took over the recruitment center,

1020
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: she actually changed to tell people you had to tell

1021
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: your spouse. But in the older generation before we came in,

1022
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 2: there were people who actually didn't tell their spouses they

1023
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 2: worked for CIA.

1024
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: There was one CIA officer famous story in the agency.

1025
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: He had two spouses at the same time that didn't

1026
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: know about each other.

1027
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 3: Oh, I have that.

1028
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: It turns out both of them knew he was CIA,

1029
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: but neither knew that there was another CIA spouse.

1030
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 5: This was amazing. You guys actually are interesting. Adam told

1031
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 5: me that you were not, and I was like, no, Adam,

1032
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 5: I've listened to the podcast.

1033
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 4: He was like, no, that's all in the editing. I

1034
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 4: still edit them to be interesting.

1035
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 2: But he was an excellent point.

1036
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: Do you still believe that Adam is just a journalist?

1037
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 5: Again, he cannot keep juicy stuff like that to himself.

1038
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: So that's what I would say. I would want you

1039
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: to believe that.

1040
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: Then well, thank you for shaming him, and thank you

1041
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 2: for joining us, and you're welcome anytime.

1042
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher,

1043
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 6: and Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission

1044
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 6: Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures

1045
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 6: for iHeart Podcasts.