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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: Will Never Told You projection of iHeartRadio and today for

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Speaker 1: the Monday Mini, we were tackling a subject that is

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Speaker 1: a much larger subject, so we're just going to focus

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Speaker 1: in on some basics. We have talked about guilt before,

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Speaker 1: women in guilt in a lot of different ways. So

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Speaker 1: I was trying to come up with We've had busy,

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Speaker 1: a busy week here at Stuff One Never Told You,

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Speaker 1: So I was trying to come up with something that

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be too complicated. Usually we make a mistake and

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Speaker 1: it is incredibly complicated anyway, but that might be the

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Speaker 1: case for this one as well. But I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about I had just come back from Dragon Con, which

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Speaker 1: is something I love doing every year. It is a

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Speaker 1: source of stress every year, however, and I realize, like

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Speaker 1: every year after I do it, I feel guilty, Like

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Speaker 1: I go over everything that I did. Did I impact

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Speaker 1: this person's time? Did I make it better? Did I

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Speaker 1: make it worse? Like all of these decisions and questions

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Speaker 1: and everything, and I just feel guilty. And I've noticed

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Speaker 1: that that happens a lot when I hang out with people.

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Speaker 1: In general, I'm just always questioning if I made the

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Speaker 1: right or wrong decision, and it's something I've grown to expect.

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Speaker 1: I think I've joked before when we go back and

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Speaker 1: pick out classics, I can always tell what time of

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Speaker 1: the year it is, because we kind of do similar

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Speaker 1: episodes around the same time of the year. Like Sabatha

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Speaker 1: usually have one about holiday stress and burn my places. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I have one about dragon con and boundaries and stress

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Speaker 1: around that, and so I've just because it's something that

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Speaker 1: I've come to expect. And we have talked about guilt

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Speaker 1: several times, and I think we should come back and

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Speaker 1: revisit it on a larger scale because the media has

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Speaker 1: given women's guilts as compared to men's, a fancy, flashy

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Speaker 1: new name, which is the guilt gap. Cool. You know,

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Speaker 1: they love to do it. So we're mostly focusing on

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of different types of guilt, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to get into some of them. We're mostly focusing

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Speaker 1: on ones that impact women more than men. Okay. Multiple

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Speaker 1: studies have found that women of all ages experience more

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Speaker 1: guilt than men. In one study, women had a lot

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Speaker 1: more reasons they listed for feeling guilty as compared to men.

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Speaker 1: Both in professional and personal terms. So it was like,

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Speaker 1: no matter what it is, women feel more guilty in

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Speaker 1: this very heteronormative way. But I did find a study

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Speaker 1: that had a non binary also and they feel even

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Speaker 1: more guilt than women did in that study. There has

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Speaker 1: been a lot of research into why this might be.

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Speaker 1: I don't think any of it is really surprising. One

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Speaker 1: of the main theories has to do with how women

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Speaker 1: are socialized. So women are often socialized to put themselves

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Speaker 1: second and make everyone else happy. If someone or something

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Speaker 1: isn't right, women often believe it's their faults and they

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Speaker 1: are the ones who have to fix it. We are

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Speaker 1: also socialized to be more empathetic, and when we can't

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Speaker 1: act on that empathy, we feel guilty. Some speculate in

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Speaker 1: a strange way, it is also an attempt to control

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Speaker 1: our circumstances, so if we're guilty of breaking something, we

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Speaker 1: have the power to fix it. Admitting that things aren't

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Speaker 1: our fault also is an admission that we can't control things.

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Speaker 1: For some it's a way of not addressing how to

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Speaker 1: move forward. So, I mean, there's a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot to unpack there, but I do think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that if you are laying the blame on yourself. Then

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Speaker 1: you feel like you can fix it, like you have

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Speaker 1: some kind of power, it's in your control. A lot

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Speaker 1: of times it isn't. And there's so many I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about this. There's so many stories I've read where

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Speaker 1: the like powerful moment is you know, someone telling you

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Speaker 1: it's not your fault you have yeah, and you're like,

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Speaker 1: it is though.

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Speaker 2: That with men? Well, like, I've never seen that as a

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Speaker 2: scene with women that I think about it. I've seen

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Speaker 2: like three or four times.

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Speaker 1: Couple of those.

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Speaker 2: Times it's a joke, but few of those times. A

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Speaker 2: lot of the times i've seen that. Maybe it was

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Speaker 2: because it was so highlighted in the stupid Matt Damon

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Speaker 2: movie Oh Goodwill Hunting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, well, yeah, I think you have a point

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Speaker 1: there because most of the things I'm thinking of, I

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Speaker 1: can think of some instances of women, but all of

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Speaker 1: this is fan fiction, so i'd have to really I.

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Speaker 2: Feel like the scenarios that I've seen that are all

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Speaker 2: dramatized are men.

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Speaker 1: Interesting? Okay, well, listeners, let us know, let us know

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Speaker 1: if we're missing a good example. I would love to

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Speaker 1: hear about it. So there, as I said, there have

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Speaker 1: been a lot of studies about this, and they have

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Speaker 1: broken down the types of guilt that affect women. There's

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Speaker 1: so many. I think one of the studies I was

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Speaker 1: reading at forty nine different specific things. So I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to go over some of the basic ones. One

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Speaker 1: is sexual guilt and virginity guilt, which I thought was interesting.

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Speaker 1: Basically feeling guilty for not being sexual enough or still

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Speaker 1: being a virgin or not being a virgin. So many

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Speaker 1: of these things are like damned if you do, damned

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Speaker 1: if you don't. Yeah, type of conversation. You feel bad

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Speaker 1: either way. And we've talked about this a lot before

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Speaker 1: when we talked about actual violence and self blame. What

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Speaker 1: was I wearing, should I have gone out, etc. All

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Speaker 1: these factors that society tells us and then some of

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Speaker 1: us internalize of like I could have controlled it, and

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Speaker 1: I could have prevented what happened based on these things.

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Speaker 1: Survivor's guilt was a big one, both with kind of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault, but also outside of that, and then guilt

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Speaker 1: for your own trauma, guilt for being traumatized and bringing

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Speaker 1: it up. That was a big one. Not reaching milestones,

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Speaker 1: which is something you and I have talked about a lot,

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Speaker 1: not having the house, not having the family, whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: Women reported a lot more guilt about that than died

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Speaker 1: for having a better life than others and or not

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Speaker 1: doing enough. Body slash health guilt slash falls. So having

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Speaker 1: guilt around not taking care of your yourself, not looking

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Speaker 1: a certain way, and having any sort of flaw. That

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Speaker 1: was a big one. Religious guilt. Now, as you know, listeners,

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Speaker 1: we did a whole bitty series thirteen plus episode Don't

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Speaker 1: Worry about Us that looked into this, but it was

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Speaker 1: it was a big one. It came up for a

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Speaker 1: lot of women not feeling like they were meeting the standards,

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Speaker 1: and they even went out of their way to say

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the kind of original sin of Eve. It

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Speaker 1: was just I'm not meeting the standards of the religion

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Speaker 1: that I follow in my mind. Feeling guilty for not

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Speaker 1: having at all or competing at work. I think there

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Speaker 1: was a lot. There were a lot of work ones

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Speaker 1: that were interesting because it was essentially feeling guilty for

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Speaker 1: not doing enough, but also for like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: bragging or doing too much. Damned if you do, damn

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Speaker 1: if you don't. Again, feeling like you can't make mistakes

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Speaker 1: and guilty if you do. As a symptom of depressive

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Speaker 1: disorder also came up. There were a lot, a lot,

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Speaker 1: a lot of them were around family and relationships, so

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Speaker 1: not being there for family enough, feeling guilty for saying no.

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Speaker 1: Here is a quote from the Glasshammer. Researchers found that

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Speaker 1: nineteen percent of single women feel selfish for setting aside

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Speaker 1: time for their self care. The same research concluded that

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Speaker 1: eighty six percent of married women feel the same way.

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Speaker 1: Selfish feelings can come with extra guilt because you don't

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Speaker 1: want to let anyone down by spending time on yourself.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge eighty six percent. And we've talked about

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Speaker 1: that too before, about that feeling as a mother, and

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Speaker 1: neither of us are mothers, but that feeling of you

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Speaker 1: have to put yourself seck in. Yeah, everyone else's first,

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Speaker 1: and you can't take time for self care apparently, right,

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Speaker 1: are you.

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Speaker 2: Feeling suffish, you know, taking care of your children, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, also I feel like I don't see

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Speaker 2: it in here. You're selfish for not having children. I've

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Speaker 2: seen them lot to women specifically.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, I think that was on there. I didn't

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Speaker 1: include it in my outline, but because it had forty

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Speaker 1: nine reasons that right, But yeah, there was one that

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Speaker 1: was you know, essentially because I've talked about that too.

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Speaker 1: I felt guilty for not having kids in my family,

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Speaker 1: even though I never wanted them. And I actually told

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Speaker 1: my mom recently. She came to visit me on my

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Speaker 1: birthday and she was like, you know, I would have

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Speaker 1: liked grandkids. I was like, well, you're not getting them

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Speaker 1: for me, right, And she was like, I know, it's fine,

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Speaker 1: but there was a time I was considering, I guess

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Speaker 1: I'll get married and have kids, even though it's not

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Speaker 1: what I want.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's in this level of like, you're

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Speaker 2: not giving me guilt grandchildren, which has never been accused

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Speaker 2: of me. My parents have said we wanted a cute

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Speaker 2: Asian child, and only what a grand child, and like

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Speaker 2: that's weird because who knows there could be problems. I

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Speaker 2: could have problems, and that's a whole different trauma if

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Speaker 2: I feel guilty that I couldn't produce. But like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's I've seen a lot of people talk about you

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Speaker 2: should feel guilty. Yeah I'm not having children, and people

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Speaker 2: are like, yeah, we do, like I'm like, what, I

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Speaker 2: don't I.

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Speaker 1: Don't know, but I know I do know that people

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Speaker 1: will try to make a lot of people feel guilty

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Speaker 1: for that, and I know that it's a thing, so uh,

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Speaker 1: not dismissing it at all. Feeling guilty for existing was

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Speaker 1: a big one.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Feeling guilty for breaking up slash divorce like failure of relationship.

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Speaker 1: This was an interesting one because they the study I'm referencing,

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Speaker 1: they had the percentage of men versus percentage of women

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Speaker 1: that felt guilty for it, and uh, women were much

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Speaker 1: more likely to feel guilty for this. They were guilty,

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Speaker 1: I mean in every one they felt more guilty, but

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Speaker 1: the percentage was higher in that one. Not loving your partner,

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Speaker 1: So I thought this was interesting. It's basically like if

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Speaker 1: you start dating somebody and you think, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I don't really love them, but I like them a lot,

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Speaker 1: and maybe I'll start to love them, and then it

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Speaker 1: just never happens, and then you want to break up

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Speaker 1: and feeling very guilty for that. Here's a quote from

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Speaker 1: a study called the Wide Variety of Reasons for Feeling

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Speaker 1: Guilty and Adults, Findings from a large cross sectional web

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Speaker 1: based survey by Tobias Luck and Claudia Luck Sikorskime. Female participants, however,

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Speaker 1: more frequently stated reasons for feeling guilty assigned to categories

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Speaker 1: like subjectively perceived responsibilities for life situations, events, circumstances and death,

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Speaker 1: circumstances of others slash for not being able to help

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Speaker 1: slash support neglecting someone, not taking enough care of someone,

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Speaker 1: not being there for someone, faults in education, or misbehavior

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Speaker 1: towards children, not spending enough time with children, not taking

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Speaker 1: enough care of children, not being there for children more

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Speaker 1: than male participants. Male participants, by contrast, more frequently stated

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Speaker 1: reasons for feeling guilty related to partners slash spouse problems

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Speaker 1: slash issues in relationship slash marriage, cheating slash having affairs

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Speaker 1: and divor slash breakup. So they were more worried about

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Speaker 1: that whole part. And it seems women were more worried

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Speaker 1: about like everybody else in their life, like children, taking

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Speaker 1: care of family, community.

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Speaker 2: Like it's also cheating. They should feel guilty rightly, So

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Speaker 2: if you don't, you're a sociopath.

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Speaker 1: It was pretty telling, you know, like with any study

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Speaker 1: like this, this is self reported. It was an internet study,

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Speaker 1: but I do think it was pretty telling because some

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Speaker 1: of the percentages were very stark and like men didn't

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Speaker 1: seem to care about that at all, and women were

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Speaker 1: really worried about it, but especially children. Like that, it

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Speaker 1: didn't seem that children came up too much with the men.

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Speaker 2: In the low birth rate.

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Speaker 1: I wonder why, Yeah, exactly exactly. Something else I wanted

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Speaker 1: to note is that in this study they found that

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Speaker 1: older folks report less feelings of guilt, and they had Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they had a couple of reasons for why they thought

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Speaker 1: that was.

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Speaker 2: One is.

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Speaker 1: Kind of this idea of like looking back with regret

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Speaker 1: versus just kind of accepting where your life went, and

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Speaker 1: something called what they call the fading effects, which is

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Speaker 1: just like once you get further away from something, you

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Speaker 1: don't really regret it as much because this is your

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Speaker 1: life now, this is you're not going to change it.

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Speaker 1: So I did think that was really interesting though, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of times you see stories of the media

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Speaker 1: where the older folks are like, I regret everything in

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Speaker 1: my life, and you know, they look back, But this,

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Speaker 1: this study seemed to indicate.

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Speaker 3: Like, na, Yeah, so if you're someone like me who

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Speaker 3: does struggle with a lot of just guilt for random things.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of tips out there, some that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to include. Recognize instances when you start to

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Speaker 1: feel guilty. So I've clearly already said one, when I

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Speaker 1: hang out with you for some reason, I'm worrying that

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Speaker 1: I've made I did something wrong, So I should look

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Speaker 1: at that and examine why that is. Try to remove

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Speaker 1: yourself from the cause of guilt. So, like, what would

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Speaker 1: I think about this situation if I wasn't at fault.

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Speaker 1: So if you kind of take away the idea that

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Speaker 1: it's your fault, then what just look at that situation.

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Speaker 1: Once you take that away, focus on the present. I

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Speaker 1: think this is a big problem for me where I'm

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Speaker 1: always thinking about the next thing. Oh are they bored?

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Speaker 1: Or they have I ruined this? Have I ruined that?

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Speaker 1: But if you stay in the present, and I find

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Speaker 1: a lot of times, if I'm being objective, everybody was fine.

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Speaker 1: They didn't need me to be mother hitting over, Like,

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Speaker 1: are you having the best time of your life? Find

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Speaker 1: activities that calm you down and make time for them.

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Speaker 1: We recently talked about this self suthing, yes, And I

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Speaker 1: also want to mention the intersection of all of this

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Speaker 1: in communication, because that did come up a lot in

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Speaker 1: the research I was doing, of just being able to

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Speaker 1: communicate your feelings of guilt and hopefully having someone who

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Speaker 1: will listen to you and be able to tell you,

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Speaker 1: be able to legitimize that you feel that way, but

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Speaker 1: tell you why that's not what's going on here or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, or just talk it out. Just talk

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Speaker 1: it out. So that's a very, very very condensed version

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Speaker 1: of a topic I think we're going to have to

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Speaker 1: come back to because that research paper was quite long.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it was very they said at the top,

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Speaker 1: in every instance, in every category, women feel more guilty

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Speaker 1: than me. I said it flat out. So clearly it's

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Speaker 1: a thing and we should talk about it. But in

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Speaker 1: the meantime, listeners, if you have any thoughts about this,

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Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. You can email

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Speaker 1: us at Hello at Stuffwenever Told You dot com. You

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Speaker 1: can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast,

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Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never Told

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Speaker 1: You for us on YouTube. We have some merchandise at

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Speaker 1: Cotton Bureau and we have a book you can get

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Speaker 1: wherever you get in your books. Thanks as always too,

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Speaker 1: our super producer Christine our executive produce and your contributor

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Speaker 1: Joey Yes, thank you and thanks to you for listening

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Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told you his production of iHeart Radio.

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