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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Knowled. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 1: Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. It is time for our listener

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Speaker 1: mail segment of the week, and we have some doozies

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Speaker 1: for you. We've actually, we've been getting so much voicemail

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Speaker 1: recently that we before we got started today, we talked

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Speaker 1: a little bit about how we're going to tackle uh.

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Speaker 1: Were still uh, we're we're working on We're working on

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Speaker 1: the nevil list. We're checking it twice today. We've got

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Speaker 1: some amazing rabbit hole emails. And as we've been doing

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Speaker 1: with some of these segments in the past, uh, what

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Speaker 1: one of us picked something a little bit lighter, as

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Speaker 1: a bit of a breaker, a palate cleanser because the

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Speaker 1: other stuff is so heavy. Uh. We have people who

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Speaker 1: find themselves struggling with the belief system currently known as

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Speaker 1: Q and on. We have people asking questions about what

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Speaker 1: happens when you leave the US military but you're still

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Speaker 1: not retirement age and you have what Liam Neeson would

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Speaker 1: call a certain set of skills. And then we have

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Speaker 1: a another question that I think I don't know about

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Speaker 1: you guys, but it's been bugging me personally for a

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Speaker 1: number of years. Uh, it's about mattresses. But but new spoilers,

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Speaker 1: those spoilers. I do think these are three incredibly important topics.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the mattress one is not as important, but just

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do it anyway. Just roll with it, this

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Speaker 1: this thing that's happening right now. No, you have found

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Speaker 1: a wonderful email that pertains to something on everybody's mind recently,

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Speaker 1: Q and on. And I think both Matt and I

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Speaker 1: have had some personal experience with some of this stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as have I. I I think I think it's something that's

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Speaker 1: touched a lot of people, and it's so unexpected because

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Speaker 1: I think when we all first heard about this, it

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Speaker 1: just seemed like the fringe eest of the fringe, you know.

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Speaker 1: It really did not strike me personally anyway as something

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Speaker 1: that would take hold and get mainstream so much. But

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Speaker 1: as we learned from our fantastic discussion with Jake Hanrahan

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Speaker 1: about his amazing podcast Q Clearance, that goes into a

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Speaker 1: lot of this. It is I think a combination of

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Speaker 1: almost like a perfect storm of circumstances lead to Q

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Speaker 1: and On being so mainstream. Uh. First and foremost being

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Speaker 1: the way it was handled by the Trump administration and

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Speaker 1: not condemning it um, but also what led it to

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Speaker 1: even pick up the kind of critical mass that it did.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot a lot of it had to

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Speaker 1: do with people being really isolated and looking for answers

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Speaker 1: and literally being stuck in their homes because of of

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Speaker 1: COVID and quarantine and and it really does give you

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Speaker 1: kind of some pretty fascinating rabbit holes to go down

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Speaker 1: until you kind of look at it all from a

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Speaker 1: distance a bit more of a remove and realize that

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that goes into it just makes

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Speaker 1: absolutely no sense just on a functional just on like

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Speaker 1: a you know, consistency level, but also the notion that

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Speaker 1: you know, democrats are part of a elite cabal of

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Speaker 1: of pedophiles and murderers and cannibals. Uh, It's just you know,

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Speaker 1: it requires some pretty serious suspension of disbelief. So the

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Speaker 1: email that we got was from Valerie. He says, Hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: my husband and I to coverage your show last year

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Speaker 1: and have been completely hooked ever since. I was browsing

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Speaker 1: Reddit uh tonight and came across an a m A

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Speaker 1: thread from an x q and on believer. I was

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Speaker 1: fascinated by the thread and the discussion about the psychology

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Speaker 1: and tactics of cults. Because let's make no mistake, Um,

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Speaker 1: while you can't necessarily point to a leader, I mean

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Speaker 1: maybe this Q figure you could consider to be the leader,

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Speaker 1: but not in the same way traditional cults have a

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Speaker 1: single human being that is the figurehead at the four

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Speaker 1: of the movement. Um. You know, Q and On is

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Speaker 1: a basically decentralized Internet based cult. Uh. So Valerie goes

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Speaker 1: on to say, I thought I'd passed along the thread.

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Speaker 1: It would be super awesome if you got the redditor

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Speaker 1: on the show to talk about his experience. If not,

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Speaker 1: maybe just an episode or segment about x Q and honors.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there are some folks talking about it. Boy,

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Speaker 1: are there ever? And yeah, this Reddit thread is it

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Speaker 1: actually was locked because of a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: divisive chatter on it, and some of abuse of folks

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Speaker 1: that were you know, coming in here and kind of

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Speaker 1: hijacking the threat, etcetera, as you know the internet is

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Speaker 1: want to do. But um, I think the most interesting

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Speaker 1: thing to me about this was the recommendations this person,

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Speaker 1: having been on the inside, made for folks who are

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Speaker 1: trying to reach people, loved ones perhaps that have been

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Speaker 1: kind of sucked into this, uh, this situation. UM. I

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Speaker 1: think an initial reaction for some would be kind of

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Speaker 1: throwing your hands up and being really angry and disappointed

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Speaker 1: that someone that you know would would be taken in

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Speaker 1: by this. But oftentimes that kind of behavior and that

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, judgment just causes people to double

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Speaker 1: down more. And I think we've got some stories, you know,

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Speaker 1: from personal experiences of that very thing. Um. But this

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Speaker 1: is one of the most I think interesting takeaways from

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Speaker 1: the from the A m A uh realize you likely

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Speaker 1: can't argue your queue out of their beliefs. This is

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Speaker 1: the hardest thing to admit. Cults, harmful religions and ct

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Speaker 1: S been a a CT stand for I've been seeing

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Speaker 1: all over this post conspiracy theory or for c N

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Speaker 1: space T is another abbreviation. This is common to I think,

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Speaker 1: as we mentioned an earlier thing, a common way to

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Speaker 1: uh get people committed to a cult like belief is

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Speaker 1: to have exclusivity and terminology. You're absolutely right. You can

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Speaker 1: also stand for theorists. Yes, for sure. Thank you for clarifying. So, cults,

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Speaker 1: harmful religions, and ct s are all inclusive belief systems.

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Speaker 1: Often they provide us them narrative of the world with

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Speaker 1: good guys, bad guys, sheeple and enlightened. Uh. They provide

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Speaker 1: a sort of moral framework. Uh. They provide meaning, community belonging,

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Speaker 1: ego boosting, and answers to sometimes good questions. They are

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Speaker 1: a sort of mega belief that rests on multiple separate pillars. Thus,

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Speaker 1: no one single pillar falling is enough to topple it.

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Speaker 1: It's a fabulous point. Attacking a ct S belief head

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Speaker 1: on will be met with excuses and rationalizations, but likely

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Speaker 1: not honest introspection. I think we've seen this time and

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Speaker 1: time again with with cults throughout history. Uh. Try out

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Speaker 1: this is a really great point here made by the poster.

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Speaker 1: Try out street epistemology and learn about critical thinking, cult behavior,

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Speaker 1: and the psychology behind these things. I mentioned Peter Bogojin.

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Speaker 1: He has a neat, non threatening way of exploring and

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Speaker 1: unpacking people's beliefs. I have no idea how successful they

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Speaker 1: would be with ct s QUES, but the concept seems

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Speaker 1: promising to me. The bite cult model b I T.

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Speaker 1: Stories of people who left Westboro, Baptist Scientology, Mormonism, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Might shed light on the sorts of factors that result

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Speaker 1: in people escaping harmful ideologies. Realize that cult stuff like

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Speaker 1: Q is a sort of mind virus. They have been programmed,

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Speaker 1: and deep programming is not easy. Rick Alan Ross seems

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Speaker 1: like a good source of info on this stuff, though

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Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of experience with him. Uh

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Speaker 1: some really good you know reading materials here, advice coming

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Speaker 1: from someone who was inside of this kind of belief

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Speaker 1: system and was able to escape it mentally. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: is this is a mental thing entirely. It's interesting. You're

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Speaker 1: not like going to a place, You're not living in

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Speaker 1: a compound, but the compound is like all of the Internet,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and and it's it's it's probably the

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Speaker 1: easiest most low level by in of a cult is

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Speaker 1: just having to log on and and click on things

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Speaker 1: on the internet as opposed to having to show up

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Speaker 1: perhaps do rituals, you know, live among your fellow cult members. Um,

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Speaker 1: but this, you know, I'd love to hear Ben and

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Speaker 1: Matt your your thoughts on this and and any stories

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Speaker 1: of individuals that you've come across you maybe are are

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Speaker 1: still in this or have have have kind of found

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Speaker 1: their way through it. I'll just have a quick story here.

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Speaker 1: The other day I was being a dad and hanging

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Speaker 1: with other dads at the park with our children and

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Speaker 1: met a new person named Rich. I will just call

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Speaker 1: him Rich for this. He runs in Atlanta bitcoin meet

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Speaker 1: up and it's fascinating dude into cryptocurrency, very intelligent and

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Speaker 1: doing very well for himself. And he was describing some

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Speaker 1: of at some of these meetups, there would every once

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Speaker 1: in a while be a person who would describe themselves

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Speaker 1: as you know, a Q and on believer or a

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Speaker 1: QUE And he just had a particular interaction with this

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Speaker 1: person where it seemed as though he was just attempting

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Speaker 1: to not bring him out of the Q thing, but

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Speaker 1: you know, just talk with him rationally about it. And

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Speaker 1: he was having difficulty with this person using thought terminating cliche.

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Speaker 1: It's something we've mentioned before a lot on the show.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that this post mentions at the bottom

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Speaker 1: down it's an edit down to the bottom of this

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Speaker 1: Reddit thread where he's saying that you know, colts use

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Speaker 1: these and he uses the phrase thought to eminating cliches,

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Speaker 1: and the one that Q and On uses is quote

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Speaker 1: trust the Plan, which is very similar to a lot

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Speaker 1: of religions phrase that you would use. Um, the Lord

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Speaker 1: works in mysterious way. Is this kind of thing where

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Speaker 1: it's just like, don't worry, it's gonna you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to understand everything. It's it's you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a there's reason behind all of this. I love this

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Speaker 1: one from Mormonism mat that I've never heard before. Doubt

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Speaker 1: your doubt. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a good one. Um.

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Speaker 1: The only reason why I bring up rich is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the people that meet up with him in

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Speaker 1: these things are a lot of times a bit quiet,

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Speaker 1: so a lot of times keep to themselves, but are

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Speaker 1: also doing very well financially. And it's interesting to me that, um,

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Speaker 1: just how we as humans can operate and you know,

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Speaker 1: have such varying beliefs and why widely different beliefs but

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Speaker 1: also still be very successful, also still be very um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the whole point they're in springing up this interaction that

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Speaker 1: I had is that this person that I just met

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Speaker 1: said he had just met this new person and he

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Speaker 1: identified that immediately. And to me, the group of people

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Speaker 1: that he meets up with are all interested in cryptocurrency

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Speaker 1: and specifically in trading and watching you know, the trends

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Speaker 1: and buying and selling in the markets, and you have

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Speaker 1: to be intelligent to understand how those markets work and

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Speaker 1: to be successful within them. And it doesn't matter how

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Speaker 1: quote educated you are or intelligent you are. This kind

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Speaker 1: of thinking can sweep up at anybody, especially when it's uh,

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Speaker 1: when it creates a feedback loop of irrepressible self validation.

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Speaker 1: It's such a pet peeve of mine when people conflate

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Speaker 1: intelligence with some sort of immunity to UH. Two fallacies.

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't forget a ton of people who graduated Harvard.

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Speaker 1: We're racist when they came in, and they were racist

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Speaker 1: when they left. That is that is also a logical fallacy.

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Speaker 1: I would say, what makes Q and on and easy

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Speaker 1: buying comparatively is um not just not just the cult

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Speaker 1: like practices which we outlined in earlier video, but also

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Speaker 1: the a R gamification aspect of it. We've had a

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Speaker 1: lot of game designers come in and say like, well,

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Speaker 1: this is how I would have hooked people, this is

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Speaker 1: how I would make kind of a slot machine of

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Speaker 1: the mind that's always paying off a little bit and

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Speaker 1: a little bit and a little bit and getting you

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Speaker 1: into sunk cost on a deeper mode of level. And then,

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Speaker 1: of course, I think anybody outside of this when reading

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Speaker 1: the Q and On lore, which you can call it

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Speaker 1: lawre now, um, I think I can't be the only

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Speaker 1: person who read this and thought, whoa big failed screenwriter

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Speaker 1: energy here bub It did also turn out by the

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Speaker 1: A that one major Q and On influencer was identified

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Speaker 1: just what January as a writer, a failed screenwriter named

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Speaker 1: Robert Cornero Jr. Or if I want I need to

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Speaker 1: be more fair and aspiring screenwriter, it's it's uncol to

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Speaker 1: call it failed. But but with this in mind, um,

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Speaker 1: I would just like to read I want to be

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Speaker 1: careful for anonymity. I would like to read some statements

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Speaker 1: I found from people who doubled down post election on

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Speaker 1: Q and on. Uh let's see leading up to Q

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Speaker 1: and on and to keep this person. Uh, I mean

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Speaker 1: to keep this person as anonymous as possible. Going to

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Speaker 1: read this and get you guys reaction. Did you see

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Speaker 1: all the executive orders Trump put out today on January eighteenth.

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Speaker 1: He's not fighting for a job. President Trump has invested

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Speaker 1: everything in you and me. He's not going to concede

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Speaker 1: in two days. Do you hear me. He's allowed this

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Speaker 1: to play out because he's protecting us as an incredible leader.

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Speaker 1: He's not about to quit on us. He's a genius,

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Speaker 1: a master chess player. This is all according to plan.

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Speaker 1: God bless America, and that's the plan. Uh. The same

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Speaker 1: person after the election, UM went a little bit nuts, saying, see,

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Speaker 1: it's all part of the plan. Don't lose your faith.

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Speaker 1: Don't believe everything you see in here today. It's all

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Speaker 1: in motion behind the scenes. He won't let us down.

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Speaker 1: It might take some time. The best is yet to come.

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Speaker 1: God Spread, God Spread JFK Jr. I think that might

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Speaker 1: be a type of but as you guys know, JFK Jr.

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Speaker 1: Is a is a big figure in in the lore here. Um.

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Speaker 1: I love the point, No, I love love love the

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Speaker 1: point that Um, this poster makes on Reddit. Uh, it

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Speaker 1: is tempting to try to bully people to change their beliefs.

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Speaker 1: It's tempting to yell at them because really what you're

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Speaker 1: doing is just sort of mentally pleasuring yourself by making

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Speaker 1: yourself feel like you're even more righteous and validated. You're

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Speaker 1: not helping that person. And I would argue that most

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Speaker 1: people who are yelling at somebody let's to try and

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Speaker 1: get them to change their beliefs, aren't really trying to

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Speaker 1: change their beliefs. They're just trying to yell at someone. Street.

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Speaker 1: Epistemology is a cool name. It's also a Socratic method.

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Speaker 1: Listen to someone, hear them out, phrase things as questions

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Speaker 1: you know um, and and participate in active listening because

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Speaker 1: God knows, we are surrounded by thought terminating cliches every

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Speaker 1: single moment of the day. No one is any better

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Speaker 1: in that regard, I think. I think another really valuable

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Speaker 1: takeaway from this Reddit post is the idea of taking

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Speaker 1: care of yourself as well. When when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: not rescue somebody but make somebody see the light like

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Speaker 1: you have, there have to be boundaries that you set

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Speaker 1: for yourself, whether it's a family member, a loved one

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Speaker 1: or just a friend. Um, because this stuff is toxic.

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Speaker 1: And if you keep putting yourself out there time and

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Speaker 1: time again and the person keeps, you know, pushing the

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Speaker 1: stuff on you and not respecting those boundaries, there comes

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Speaker 1: a point where you do have to just say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well I tried, I did my best, and it's not

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Speaker 1: your responsibility to save everybody. Uh. They say this person says,

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Speaker 1: love them, be there for them, but set boundaries. If

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Speaker 1: nothing above works, you need to protect yourself and manage

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Speaker 1: the potential damage and fall out on the relationship. Luckily,

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Speaker 1: I didn't hurt my family much because they mostly ignored

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Speaker 1: my rants and ramblings. If it's taking a toll on you,

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Speaker 1: you may need to make it clear that you just

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Speaker 1: can't engage with them about this anymore. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be completely candid. Uh. You know, my mother

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Speaker 1: isn't a Q and non person, but there are certain

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Speaker 1: things that she believes that I've had to draw a

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Speaker 1: line in the sand and just say I respectfully ask

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Speaker 1: that we not discuss this because I just it's it's

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Speaker 1: difficult for me to engage. Uh. And that's on me

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Speaker 1: on like like reading this, it almost makes me feel

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Speaker 1: like that was a cop out on my part because

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Speaker 1: I have taken the attack more of getting upset and

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Speaker 1: and and not treating her like with you know, it's

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Speaker 1: so easy to just, you know, condemn somebody for their beliefs,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to trying to hear them out and not

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Speaker 1: hear them out like, oh I, I maybe you can

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Speaker 1: convince me, because at least at least thinking that to me,

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Speaker 1: some of these these things are just lines in the sand.

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Speaker 1: Uh so often, but um, there are some other tactics

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Speaker 1: that I think are important. Explore their doubts. The poster says,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's something that your Q doesn't understand or doesn't

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Speaker 1: make sense. What is it? Asking questions is not the

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Speaker 1: same as confronting, and if done well, might have a

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Speaker 1: chance to crack some of their ideas or find out

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Speaker 1: if there are any conspiracies they don't believe. I hated

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Speaker 1: flat earthers and lizard folk while fully convinced we were

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Speaker 1: being visited by aliens and Democrats were eating babies. Maybe

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Speaker 1: if I had been encouraged to explore that discrepancy, I

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Speaker 1: would have flexed my atrophied critical thinking muscle, because again,

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Speaker 1: a big part about those thought terrainning cliches is to

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Speaker 1: shut down critical thinking. Sure, yeah, and the and the

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Speaker 1: the dilemma about that is that thought terminating cliches are

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Speaker 1: to a degree necessary for the type of abbreviated, dense

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Speaker 1: communication that we use in the current era. We don't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of deep learning, and frankly, there's often

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Speaker 1: not time for deep conversations in most people's lives. But

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Speaker 1: it can go too far. Just like you know, carrots

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Speaker 1: are great for you, but you can eat too many carrots,

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Speaker 1: which is not not my best analogy, but we sell

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Speaker 1: more time to have a good one. Uh. The issue

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Speaker 1: on the table is one of sunk cost fallacy. It's

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Speaker 1: also one of I would say pitchforking, because you have

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Speaker 1: to remember when people are confronted. This goes back into

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Speaker 1: our earlier episode on why you can't win an argument online.

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Speaker 1: When people are confronted and what they feel is a

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Speaker 1: belligerent way about something they believe or a hold to

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Speaker 1: be true, neurochemical research shows that they will double down.

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Speaker 1: The part of your brain sometimes called the reptilian brain

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Speaker 1: that has the anger and of ad stuff and the

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Speaker 1: killer be killed things. That is activity spikes there when

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Speaker 1: people are confronted, especially if they feel confronted, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether or not there are facts involved in

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Speaker 1: that case, because then, um. The one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: people climber read this threat, but one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: people can sometimes fall into demonstrable untrue conspiracy theories is

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Speaker 1: because if there is a seed of truth to it,

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Speaker 1: it feels like critical thinking. It feels very much the same,

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Speaker 1: and to our brain sometimes the way that your brain

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Speaker 1: cannot recognize the difference between fake laughter and real laughter.

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Speaker 1: To our brain, this process of synthesis and analysis feels

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Speaker 1: the same whether we're looking at something that is actually

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Speaker 1: true or is just something we believe to be true. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In this case, it's a little different though, because they

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Speaker 1: did they did have foreign assistance, like the Q and

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Speaker 1: On movement had foreign dis info assistance, but maybe not

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Speaker 1: as much as people would like to think. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the seeds for this were home grown. And we're there,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. The car parts were already

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Speaker 1: there at one point or another. Someone was bound to

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Speaker 1: build the actual car and drive it. Uh. I don't know. See,

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Speaker 1: I I see some EXQ stuff happening, but I also

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Speaker 1: see this evolving over time, maybe maybe just something different.

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Speaker 1: The the beautiful insidious thing about trust the plan is

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Speaker 1: that the plan always changes, right, Like the predictions have

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Speaker 1: been wrong on the Q clock. Uh, the predictions have

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Speaker 1: been wrong regarding policy. Uh. The most recent I think,

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Speaker 1: perhaps the most shrill arguments leading up to the election

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Speaker 1: were incorrect in that they also cited things that just

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Speaker 1: don't happen in government. It's not as if the US

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Speaker 1: government has had for more than two centuries some kind

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Speaker 1: of secret plan for secret you know, legal mechanism that

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Speaker 1: they just never happened to use, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It just it doesn't bear up to scrutiny. But that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean the person who believes that should be anathema.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not. It's not worth it's not worth

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Speaker 1: losing a real relationship with a loved one. If there

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Speaker 1: is a vie double alternative, which is hearing them out,

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Speaker 1: you know, listening more than we speak and asking well

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Speaker 1: intentioned questions, no gotcha questions. I just feel like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you think about blah blah blah? Well who

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Speaker 1: do you think Q is? Well, Um, that's interesting. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think that that kind of stuff. You know,

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Speaker 1: Socrates had it right, I think that's very good man.

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Speaker 1: Scredit method all day. You know, it's not easy to

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Speaker 1: live with a conspiracy realist or a conspiracy theorist. Just

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Speaker 1: ask my wife, and uh, you know it's it's sorry,

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Speaker 1: so any and all loved ones out there, but hopefully, hopefully,

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Speaker 1: hopefully it's a mixture of good and bad, because that's

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Speaker 1: what we you know, this is the line that we

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Speaker 1: explore on the show, right, That's that's why this show exists,

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Speaker 1: that line between what is real and what is not

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Speaker 1: and how do we navigate that and let's do it together.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to say thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for writing in. Oh and last point to um, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty clear that I believe that Noel, Matt and I

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Speaker 1: do not subscribe two and have not subscribed to the

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Speaker 1: set of beliefs or allegations or claims to made by

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Speaker 1: Q and on. But if you do, in particular, then

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Speaker 1: please don't be afraid to write in. You know, I

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Speaker 1: want to hear you out. I'm not gonna I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna instantly say you know, that's hogwash. I'm gonna listen

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Speaker 1: to what people are saying and the thing is that

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Speaker 1: I we did not find any of those predictions that

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Speaker 1: came true, and we got dunked on pretty hard by

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Speaker 1: some some listeners who very much did believe in Q

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Speaker 1: and On and very much did think we were giving

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Speaker 1: it short shrift. But we did our due diligence, I

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Speaker 1: would say, and we just we couldn't find anything anything

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Speaker 1: provable about it. But the important part of this sort

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Speaker 1: of reasoning is to put the truth over the opinion

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Speaker 1: or the comfort level. So don't be afraid and don't

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Speaker 1: feel like weirded out. No one's gonna no one's gonna

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00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: mock you or just send you some kind of egregious meme.

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Speaker 1: We want to hear from you. Although I am a

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Speaker 1: fan of an egregious meme, I'm not gonna lie. But

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Speaker 1: absolutely so, whether or not you've you know, you've found

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00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: your way in it, or you're in the thick of it, uh,

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Speaker 1: send us your stories. Uh. And I completely I'm on

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Speaker 1: board with you, Ben. I mean, I do not subscribe

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Speaker 1: to any of this, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is pretty toxic and dangerous. But I am absolutely

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Speaker 1: uh here with an open mind to have a conversation

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Speaker 1: about it with anyone, well said, And with that, thanks

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Speaker 1: again to our listener. We're gonna pause for a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor and we'll be back with something completely different,

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Speaker 1: something that may also be conspiracy. Okay, I can't do

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Speaker 1: the Eddie Murphy thing and start laughing at jokes before

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00:24:50,240 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: I make them. Anyway, sponsors, and we are back. We

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Speaker 1: received a wonderful email from Bridget. G Uh here's what

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Speaker 1: you said. Bridget. Bridget said, Hi, guys, I love your podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting and entertaining. They call me a paranoid Cliff

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Speaker 1: Claven ha ha, all in fun. I have this curiosity

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Speaker 1: that has got me wondering for some time now. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is common in other states, but

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Speaker 1: in Minnesota we have so so many RV dealers, acres

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Speaker 1: of them, and hundreds of mattress stores. I did a

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Speaker 1: quick search on the r vs and there was eight

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Speaker 1: four seven in my little hometown alone. The mattress stores

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Speaker 1: are endless, so what the heck? Most people buy maybe

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Speaker 1: three mattresses in their adult life, and then r vs.

428
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: Who's buying all of these? The math doesn't add up.

429
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: Are these legit businesses or fronts for something? Money laundering?

430
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: Some kind of corporate tax fraud. Can you guys help

431
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: me out? Can you kill my curiosity? Thanks Bridget, Well,

432
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: thank you bridget First off, no, we're never going to

433
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: kill your curiosity. Our show depends upon people having curiosity,

434
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: so we can't We can't help you there, but we

435
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: can try to answer at least a couple of these questions.

436
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: Because it turns out that Matt Noel and I, along

437
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: with along with Mission Control and several of our colleagues,

438
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: we have we've talked about the weird thing with mattress

439
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,719
Speaker 1: stores often sometimes sometimes over a few drinks, I'll admit,

440
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: because we're baffled just down the street from our hallowed studios.

441
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: Conspiracy HQ. We just decided to call it. Apparently in Atlanta, Georgia,

442
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: there are the meme is true. On the streets. There

443
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: are two mattress firms directly across from one another on

444
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: a street called Moorland. And these uh, these match as

445
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 1: firms are not different in any way other than their

446
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: physical location. Yeah, other than one's easier to get to

447
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: going in one direction, the other is easier to get

448
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: to going in the other direction. Demand is that high? Yeah?

449
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: I mean, what is going on? Maybe there's like, maybe

450
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: there's a subterranean passage linking them and it's all just

451
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: the same mattress store the way that uh, quaking Aspen

452
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: appears to be a bunch of different trees, but it's

453
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: one gigantic organism. Maybe all mattress firms are quaking Aspen style.

454
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: I don't really. These mattresses are stuffed with all manner

455
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: of illicit products, right right, right, Maybe there's some maybe

456
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: there's some code, you know what I mean, like you

457
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: ask for the footless mattress, like I'll have the hands

458
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: free mattress from the back. Uh, I don't understand. Uh, yes,

459
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: so this is so this is an interesting question. There

460
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: are a couple of ways to tackle it. R VS.

461
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 1: I'll be kind of a separate thing. But the mattresses.

462
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: First off, I was so clueless on this. I think

463
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: I may have mentioned it on the show before. I

464
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 1: drove past multiple mattress firms for years and years and years,

465
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until a couple of years back that

466
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: I realized it's supposed to be some sort of pun.

467
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: I thought it just meant mattress organization, you know, like

468
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, technically you want your mattress to

469
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: have just the rights amount of sync, just the right

470
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: amount of bounce, not too firm, not too soft. You

471
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: know what I mean? That goldilocks out is what you want.

472
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 1: It's up there with the time that I realized the

473
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: primary ingredient in traditional soy sauces, you know soy uh So. Look,

474
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: even if you overthink things, you're gonna miss some stuff.

475
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: So with this, there are a couple of answers. There

476
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: are a couple of possibilities. One you probably the most boring,

477
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: the most mundane, is at a store like a matress

478
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: store doesn't actually have to sell that many mattresses to

479
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: make their rent and some profit every month, right like you,

480
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: a mattress isn't particularly cheap unless you buy a used

481
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: one off Craigslist. It's true. It depends on how many

482
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: employees you have, you know, you know, another cost like

483
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: electricity and all these other things. Because I can imagine

484
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: it is true, you sell a couple of mattresses, you're

485
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: good to have a couple of people work in the store.

486
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: I went into one not long ago and there was

487
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: a single employee in there, and I actually made a

488
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: purchase in a mattress firm, you guys, So I'm I'm

489
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: maybe contributing to this whole problem. It was just a

490
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: bad frame, but still it was like to or something,

491
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: so it wasn't a cheap buy. Well, it's especially with

492
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: you know, obviously in the podcast business. We're we Will

493
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: you know, worked very closely with Casper and Purple and

494
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: all of these like online you know, way Farrell Cindy

495
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: a mattress, you can get the bargain Basement one off

496
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: of Amazon. Uh and and living in a society of

497
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: increasingly kind of issues going into brick and mortar show rooms,

498
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, because we don't want to like talk to humans.

499
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 1: I guess, um, it's very interesting that these things are

500
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: still around. And I guess to to your point band

501
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: of the fact they can be kind of skeleton crude,

502
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: I still don't quite get it because they have to

503
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: pay commissions, you know as well. I mean that's the

504
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: only way that folks that sell them probably make money. Right,

505
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: it's a commission based thing if you're actually working in

506
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: a showroom. I imagine maybe if we break it down

507
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: by month, right, let's say, just picking numbers out of

508
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: the air, Let's say a store pays ten k a

509
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: month in rent. That's pretty high right in most parts

510
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: of the world. Uh. So let's say their margin profit

511
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: is like fifty and they're selling mattresses, uh for a

512
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: grand very expensive mattresses. Then I'm doing this just to

513
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: make very easy math. If you sell one mattress per

514
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: day in twenty days, you've made rent, and the rest

515
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: of those ten days that's all profit. That's that's everything

516
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: else you need, right, I guess you would say rent.

517
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: Let's say that's rent and utilities uh and insurance, operating costs, whatever.

518
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: So it could be possible that it's just very easy

519
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: to make money off of a mattress store, or it

520
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: was because to your point and all the rise of

521
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: online mattress ordering. Um, you know, it's probably probably a

522
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: huge disruptor for this. So that's like the that's like

523
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: the borrying, mundane answer, and it's probably true in many

524
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: situations the math might just work out. But again, there

525
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: are problems there. There there are problems, and then before

526
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: we get to those, just want to say one last

527
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: thing in support of this business model. You could argue

528
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: too that having a showroom is so rare these days

529
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: that it's almost like having advertising It's almost like having

530
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: like a very expensive billboard that you and walk into.

531
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: You know, because you can still order k order of

532
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: mattress firm stuff through a website as well, or they

533
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: exclusively work out of showrooms. I'm not familiar with the

534
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: workings of the firm. I know you can call them

535
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: and they'll have it ready for you when you pick

536
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: it up. We also have to point out that the conspiracy,

537
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: the conspiratorial aspect, the idea that there was money laundering

538
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: involved a lot of times when someone is trying to

539
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: launder money, people will have store fronts that are just

540
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: operations to clean dirty money. But often those are gonna

541
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: be things where a lot of cash transactions occur, like

542
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: casinos or car washes as breaking bad presented or parking lot. Yeah,

543
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: that's a great example. It's gonna say very very high

544
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 1: volume laundromat, but they would have to be washing a

545
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: lot of underwear or mattress sheets, yes, okay, to keep

546
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: things thematic. So this if somebody is laundry money through

547
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: a mattress store, it may not be their best choice

548
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: except for one thing. There is one real conspiracy that

549
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: happened in the world of mattress manufacturing. And it is this.

550
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: Mattresses used to be much more expensive to manufacture. The

551
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: margin on a mattress used to be lower, slimmer, smaller.

552
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: As the cost of manufacturing mattresses went down, Blame it

553
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: on outsourcing, blame it on better production methods, etcetera, the

554
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: retail price stayed approximately the same. So that margin get

555
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: biggers on Cameron cases YouTube, so that margin goes from

556
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: like a teeny bit here to a much higher proportion.

557
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: They're still not as large a margin as say a

558
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: pizza joint or popcorn at the movie theater, but now

559
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: you're making money that feels like hidden money. So now

560
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: maybe if you wanted to, if we wanted to launder

561
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: money through a mattress store, which is of course the

562
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: original dream the four of us have before we started podcast, uh,

563
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: then what you would do is this, you would start

564
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: cooking the books, not necessarily on the customer facing end,

565
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: you would start cooking the books internally on your internal cost.

566
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: And so now instead of paying uh, I don't know,

567
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: two hundred bucks cost for a mattress that you sell

568
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: for like eight hundred bucks, you say that you're buying

569
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: it for six hundred bucks and that your mark up

570
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: it is only two d dollars, and then now you

571
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: have an opportunity. There's something there at freeze. They kind

572
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: of backwards, but you can you can cease the gist here, right,

573
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: especially for the supplier you say you're selling at six hundred,

574
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: but you're really selling it two hundred. Then you get

575
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: he gets a wiggle route, right, he got some latitude.

576
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: You can make the big work in your direction. So

577
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: that that's a real thing that happened. But as far

578
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: as why there's so many, the primary argument against it

579
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: being a common money laundering scheme is just that there

580
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: are so many. Well, yeah, did you see what they did?

581
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: That this was a market strategy apparently that that mattress

582
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: firm started doing where they were buying up smaller chains.

583
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: As they would buy those up, they would end up

584
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: having a mattress firm right next to a mattress firm,

585
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: because mattress firm previously would move into territory where there

586
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: was already a local chain trying to sell mattresses and

587
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: put it across the street to be like, what's up

588
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: mattress firms here? How are you doing? What are you

589
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: gonna do? What are you gonna do sorry, little chain,

590
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: and then they buy that little chain, and now there

591
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: are two mattress firms looking at each other across Monroe

592
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: or which one is it? Morland? And you know that

593
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: this article has some interesting exerpts from a discussion on Reddit.

594
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: What what conspiracy theory buy into and why um and

595
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: other people from other parts of the country are pointing

596
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: out the exact same thing I remember seeing. This is

597
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: a quote. I remember seeing four mattress firms all on

598
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: each corner of an intersection once there is no way

599
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: there is such a demand for mattresses. Uh. And then

600
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: there's an edit. A few people seem confused. I'm talking

601
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: about multiple of the same mattress store, and that's exactly

602
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, so we're very much on the

603
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: same page. There's also the point about show rooms, because

604
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: most people still would prefer to buy a mattress in person.

605
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: You're going to spend a third year life on it,

606
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,479
Speaker 1: right ideally, so so what you would what you would

607
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: be looking for is an in person try out. You

608
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: want to go in and lay down on it. There's

609
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: a great key and Peel sketch about this too, but

610
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: it's not appropriate for work, and then and then you

611
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: would after after that. I don't think this happens to

612
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: a ton of people, but after that, some folks might

613
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: be embarrassed. You might be like, I went and laid

614
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: down on a dozen different things in your store, I

615
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: have to buy at least one. That's dude. I have

616
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: that feeling every time I go into a physical store.

617
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: I've been walking around here for like twenty minutes. I

618
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: gotta buy something anything again, right, sir? Do you need

619
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 1: do you need to pull something from the shelf. So

620
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: I'll just take the gum. Just give me the gum.

621
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 1: Give me the gum. I am on the complete opposite,

622
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: and I'll go into a mattress store and just lay

623
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: down on mattress with zero intention of buying anything, just

624
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: to catch a quick little, you know, chill time when

625
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: I'm at the mall. But I wanted to point out

626
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: really quickly. I went to the mattress from his website,

627
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: and they do offer the same exact stuff that the

628
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: Caspers and Purples and Lisas of the world offer, free

629
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: shipping direct door to door um or including hauling away

630
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: of your old mattress. They also offer a one hundred

631
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: and twenty nights sleep trial, which is a big factor

632
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: of Casper and a lot of those other companies. So

633
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: you can send it back if you're not satisfied. Um.

634
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: And they you know, they have like in house financing

635
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: and all of that, and of course they carry multiple brands. UM.

636
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: So it's interesting. I can see your point bent about

637
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: for some people, it is still important to be able

638
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: to kick the tires on the thing. People don't like

639
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: buying things sight unseen. And the the last point to

640
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: make there is really if you want to if you

641
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: want to have that vicarious living experience. I've never been

642
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: kicked out of an Ikea and I have fake lived

643
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: in those before. Uh, just in New York and lived

644
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: to one. You know the do you know the second

645
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: biggest furniture retail company in the world Rooms to Go. No,

646
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: what is it? It's the company that owns Mattress firm. No,

647
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: it's called Steinoff. I've never even heard of. That is

648
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: the European uh, South African. I think it was German.

649
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: Then the company moved to South Africa. I'm not exactly

650
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: sure who the whole background, but they purchased it for

651
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: they purchased Mattress firm for two point four billion. They're

652
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: not like a store there's they're a holding company, but

653
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: it's number two to Ikea, at least according to some

654
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 1: reporting from w b R as today on I wonder well,

655
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: bridget we are on the case. Uh. I just received

656
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: a text from the deep State at our an s

657
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: A intern uh, saying just thin ice but with a

658
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: heart emoji. So I don't didn't too much trouble. I

659
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: think we just need to pause, I have a word

660
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: from our sponsor and return with a different story before

661
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: the mattress octopus gets us. Don't look up the name,

662
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: Marcus juiced. Al Right, we are back, and we're going

663
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: to jump to an email we got from I'm going

664
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 1: to use your name Robert here it goes, go ahead

665
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: and use my name. My n s A agent probably

666
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: knew I would send this before I did. I did, Robert,

667
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: So you and your n s A agent, there you go.

668
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: That's your name, Robert, he says. I won't mention anyone

669
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: else's name, though I know several ex military that when

670
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: they came back from deployment have complained about PC's that's

671
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: private contractors and how they don't have to play by

672
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: the same rules because they were there as private protection

673
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: contractors and not as a country's armed forces. Some of them,

674
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: after serving their time, have decided to get out instead

675
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: of re instead of re upping going back, but then

676
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: got a job as a PC and went right back

677
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: to where they had just left. So I guess leaving

678
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: their military service then going back to the same place

679
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: they were as a private military contractor. UM the ones

680
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: I've asked why basically said that now they will finally

681
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: get to shoot the bad guys and do the stuff

682
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: they could not do as a soldier, and the pay

683
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: is much better, much much better. He says, So, how

684
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: does this apply to me? When serving as a member

685
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: of the U. S Armed forces? They have strict rules

686
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: of engagement that prohibit them from being the aggressor or

687
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: keep them from protecting the citizens living around them if

688
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 1: they themselves are not threatened. It's very frustrating and even

689
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: more frustrating if a PC a contractor can shoot a

690
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: known bad guy without it being an act of war.

691
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: I think most who see this and are frustrated that

692
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 1: they can't do anything about it are motivated to become

693
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: private contractors themselves so they can go and do what

694
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: they couldn't do themselves. To me, it's scary because it

695
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: floods the market with hired guns. Oh A, Robert, thank

696
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: you so much for writing in and for telling us

697
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: about your experience on this show. We've talked about private

698
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: military contractors before a bit briefly, I think on in

699
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: the audio side. We've got several videos you can go

700
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: check out if you wish to kind of get a

701
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: basis of knowledge around this topic um or you know,

702
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: maybe you have some experience yourself. Our coverage prior to

703
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: this has largely been on that line that Robert is

704
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: describing to you here between what's the difference between a

705
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: military officer or you know, a soldier in a military

706
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: and then a private contractor who is working on behalf

707
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: of that military and what rules apply to these two

708
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: different people, and what like in practice, what does that

709
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: look like? And some of the best examples that we've

710
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: gotten before in the past and looking at this came

711
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: from the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq.

712
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: The most recent war in Iraq. I don't know if

713
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: everyone remembers this, but back in the day, there was

714
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: a massacre that occurred in a rock at the hands

715
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: of some Blackwater employees, private military contractors who were there

716
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: in Iraq, and it was a you know, when the

717
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: reporting came out about it, it was very harrowing. It

718
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: was an awful thing that occurred. And originally Ben helped

719
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: me with this, but it originally when the story broke,

720
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: it felt as though these men weren't going to be

721
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: tried or they were they weren't going to be getting

722
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: in trouble initially, and I think that's why there was

723
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: such an outcry for it, because there were there were

724
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: these civilians in I Rock that got massacred by private

725
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: military contractors, and it seemed like there wasn't gonna be

726
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: any justice to talk about the Nisour Square massacres seven Blackwater,

727
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 1: and that was just initially what occurred. Um gosh, I'm

728
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time even alling back to this time.

729
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: Was that two thousand seven? Okay, so that was right

730
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: before Stuff they Don't Want You to Know became a

731
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: video series and you know, we were still looking at

732
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: this stuff and talking about it, uh in the first

733
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: several years of this show. But it it was a

734
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: rough thing to even think about that the United States

735
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: was sending over members of the military that were mercenaries.

736
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: That's I mean that you can think about it that way.

737
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: These private military contractors are mercenaries, human beings with guns

738
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: that have a mission to do a certain thing depending

739
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 1: on what they're told to do for pay. Yeah. Um.

740
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: And the reason why I think this is it's important

741
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: to address right now is because something happened about a

742
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: month ago that applies to those specific Blackwater employees or

743
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: former Blackwater employees who have been in jail for a

744
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: long time, quite quite a time. They were pardoned um

745
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: by the outgoing pre sennant Donald Trump. Now, the reason

746
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: why this is news is because it was seventeen innocent

747
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: civilian citizens who were gunned down in two thousand and

748
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: seven and then for for the you know, the top official,

749
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: the leader of the country that represented the killers to

750
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: say you are pardoned. Uh, it feels like a massive blow,

751
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 1: it does. And just just to be completely clear, they

752
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 1: were tried and found guilty in like in a civilian court,

753
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 1: right that that is correct, so you know they would

754
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: not have had the same protections. I guess you could

755
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: call it as actual members of the military who would

756
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: be tried internally or court martialed or what have you.

757
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: You know, based on whatever metric the Army uses to

758
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: decide whether something is a war crime or just collateral damage.

759
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: So this really blurs that line, doesn't it. It does,

760
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: It does, And you know we're not We're not gonna

761
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: sit here and tell you it's an easy situation to

762
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: deal with threats when you're operating in the field somewhere,

763
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: no matter who you are, if your military or private contractor,

764
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 1: it's not easy to assess dangers that are around you. Um.

765
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: And it's not always a black and white situation when

766
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: you know you have to fire your weapon or you

767
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: decide to fire your weapon. But in this particular circumstance,

768
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 1: I think I think it's a little easier to see

769
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: that there were unnecessary deaths that occurred here. Um. And

770
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, again, it's easy for me to say sitting

771
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 1: here behind a microphone as a guy who's never been

772
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: in combat, but but good god it it's tough anyway.

773
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 1: We don't have to get stuck on on the pardons thing,

774
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,439
Speaker 1: which is worth your time if you want to look

775
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: that up. What I do just want to continue talking

776
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,959
Speaker 1: about is the future of private military contractors. Other instances

777
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: that have occurred where contractors have done something that they

778
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 1: shouldn't have done and either gotten away with it or

779
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: you know, we just don't know about yet. I think

780
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: it would be worth it for everyone listening right now

781
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 1: and for for us personally to look into that stuff further.

782
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: And Uh, and we would love to hear from you

783
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: if you're listening out there and you have experience, Matt,

784
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: What what was it that led this to be such

785
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: a big news story? Obviously it was reported, so there

786
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: was there were a journalist present, something happened, and and

787
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: to your point, I feel like stuff like this could

788
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: happen in a vacuum. Uh, and we'd never hear about it.

789
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: But what about this particular case caused it to be

790
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: such a you know, create such a public outcry. I

791
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: feel I feel like such a dunce here, Ben, Was

792
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: it not? Was it not leaked as part of a

793
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: wiki leaks thing? I feel like that's how I remember

794
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: learning about it. Um. I know it's not the Iraq

795
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: war tapes. Um. I'm just having a hard time recalling

796
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: because so so many things were so many things we're

797
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: coming out from wiki leaks around that time, Uh, you know,

798
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: around two thousand or maybe it's two thousand nine, but

799
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: it was just I remember watching the footage, the video

800
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: footage of some of it and reading the stories um

801
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: when we when we made those videos been and it

802
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: just well we we know that The New York Times

803
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: reported on this in two thousand seven, and there were

804
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 1: guards who witnessed the incident who also Blackwater guys, who

805
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 1: said that they felt the shootings were unjustified. And then

806
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: journalists began digging around and seeing some increasingly troubling things

807
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: about oversight, about the number of incidents where in Blackwater, uh,

808
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: Blackwater employees were firing first regardless of circumstance. That one

809
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: of the reasons this was such a big deal these

810
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 1: pardons on December is because is the people who got

811
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: pardoned had been sentenced to One of them have been

812
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison. The other three have been

813
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: sentenced to thirty years in prison each, and that was

814
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,959
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, because they went to trial in and

815
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: this was a this was a long legal saga, so

816
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: they served about five years, if you want to call

817
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 1: it that a little more than five years. And this

818
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: was seen as a profound insult to the family members

819
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: of the victims as well as rocky citizens in general,

820
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: where as you can imagine, the US has not the

821
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: best reputation. Uh. It also brings up and I think

822
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 1: this is what are this, this is what you're talking about, Robert.

823
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: It brings up some of these even larger questions about

824
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: the role of private contractors or if you want to

825
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: call them mercenaries, uh, in what what their role is

826
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: in a state military or state level armed forces armed

827
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: service Because you know, I don't know if you guys

828
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: remember what's called the rent a coup scandal. I do not.

829
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: That is that this is the accusation of you can

830
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: read a great thing by the Brookings Institution on this,

831
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 1: uh called outsourcing war. And this actually this happened before,

832
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: uh the before the events that we're talking about with Blackwater.

833
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: The idea was that the private military industry would give

834
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: several things plausible deniability, right, so you can say it

835
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily our country attacking you. Uh. It would also

836
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: blur the lines between civilians and soldiers, which you know

837
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: terrorism does that too, right. Uh. And then it also

838
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: had a profit motive. It can make a lot of

839
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: money for some people, not for everybody, but it can

840
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: make a lot of money for people and the at

841
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: least going to Brookings, the private military industry, it's very

842
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: much a thing emerged at the start of the nine nineties.

843
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: But I would be very careful with that. You could

844
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: say maybe the modern private military industry emerged at the

845
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 1: start of the nineteen nineties, but the history of war

846
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: is lousy with mercenaries, like it's a real it's a

847
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: real thing. And also, just to be completely fair, when

848
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: we say mercenaries, we're talking about people who are an

849
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: active hot combat right direct conflicts. A private contractor or

850
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: private military contractor is not always that. They could be

851
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: someone who's tasked with repairing vehicles, right, Uh, they could

852
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: be someone who's tasked with driving a truck somewhere in

853
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 1: a foreign country. There's not not all of these people

854
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: are like x X special forces or something like that.

855
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: It's very important to make that distinction. How of Burton

856
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: and all the people who are in a Rock and

857
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: Afghanistan building basis or or people who have decided to

858
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: take I don't know, it's tough because you could argue

859
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: there's something similar with the revolving door in the defense industry. Right,

860
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: you put your time in, you get to a high

861
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: enough level in Uncle Sam's organization, and then you just

862
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: on the strength of your connections joining a private organization.

863
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: So now you've got to you know, you've got to

864
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: sell all these new missiles. So you've got to sell

865
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 1: this new uh, this, this new helicopter armament or module.

866
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: So you are the person who knows Senator Farfignugen right,

867
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: because you work together. You're in the army. So people

868
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: will pay you easily half a million dollars just because

869
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: you know that guy, and you can call him and say,

870
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: you know, what's really kick ass this new stuff we

871
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: have for apaches. UM find is always good with the

872
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: Apache stuff. I noticed that. Well, I just want to

873
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to say, like, when

874
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: we're talking about this private public practice, not everybody involved

875
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: as a soldier. And I think it's also UM is

876
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: still troubling from from like the halls of Washington all

877
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: the way out to the most remote locale you could imagine.

878
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: This is troubling because it can make it can make

879
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: a double standard, you know what I mean. And then

880
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 1: what happens in negotiations when two countries or two groups

881
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: are trying to reach a piece of cord of some

882
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 1: sort and they say, okay, look, you need to answer

883
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: for this war crime that was committed. What happens when

884
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 1: the negotiators like, well, that technically wasn't us. We paid them,

885
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: but it wasn't us. Yeah, what happens when it's not

886
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: a private military contractor anymore and it's an alphabet boss Sston.

887
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: I was about to say, Boston market Boston Dynamics, Boston Marketing,

888
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: that's their main stream of income, I think, right. But

889
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: like if Boston Dynamics creation one of these robots that

890
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: is armed at some point in the future and carrying

891
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: out missions the same way a private contractor would, and

892
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: it malfunctions or does something incorrect, who gets blamed? Then

893
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: that's what our future is gonna look like. I think

894
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: it's worth us talking about this more, and we should. Well,

895
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask a quick question of of both

896
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: of you guys, what are your thoughts in general on

897
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: the institution of the presidential pardon. I know that's a

898
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: big question, but I've always it's always like kind of

899
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: skis me out a little bit. It's like, did you

900
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: break the law? Were you convicted? Then that should stand

901
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: Like it feels like, I know, maybe it's harder to

902
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: swallow when it's something that feels unjust like this, And

903
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: there are certainly people that perhaps wrongfully convicted or a

904
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: pardon makes sense. This one did not feel that way.

905
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: But in general, it seems like an awful lot of

906
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: power for one person to just unequivocally wield with no oversight.

907
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: It's kind of weird because it ends up being your

908
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: personal perspective in the perspective of the president, right, that's

909
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 1: really the only thing that comes into it. I wish

910
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: it was more limited. I wish it was fewer pardons

911
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 1: could be given out. You know a hard number. I

912
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 1: don't if there is, I don't know it, but I've

913
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: never I've never seen anyone say whoa, whoa, will slow

914
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: down on the pardoning. Mr President. Yeah, there's no explicit

915
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: hard number. The biggest limiting factor is that you can

916
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the US, accepting

917
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: cases of impeachment. I remember, impeachment can apply to uh

918
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: can apply to like a member of the judicial branch

919
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 1: as well, So that's that's what you cannot touch with

920
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: this uh UM. It was controversial from the time it's

921
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: from from the time of its inception. You know, people

922
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:12,760
Speaker 1: like George Mason said this, I think it was Mason

923
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: had this quote where he was he was basically saying, look, Pardons,

924
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: makes sense if every president is as good as George Washington.

925
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: And let's be honest, my dudes, not all the presidents

926
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: that come after him are going to be as good

927
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: as this guy. We kind of locked out, and everybody's like, now,

928
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: come on, man, we're doing a we're doing a country thing.

929
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: It's gonna be great. We're starting We're doing a start

930
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: a country bit. So yeah, Pardons. Well, and even then,

931
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 1: like imagine in the Revolutionary War, if you're gonna pardon

932
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: someone who was working for the country, who was you know,

933
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: would be considered a patriot by many, but maybe that

934
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: person killed, you know, fifteen people in an effort to

935
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 1: to create that country and fight for the formation of

936
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: the United States, some people are gonna think that person

937
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,280
Speaker 1: should stay in jail forever, do whatever, you know, remain

938
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: I'm just completely made up. I'm just saying, like you're

939
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: gonna have you're gonna have differing viewpoints. The it's the

940
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: freedom fighter terrorist thing, right. Well, Also, I don't want

941
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: to derail us here. But with the idea of a pardon,

942
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: you'll you'll hear it being portrayed as a mechanism for

943
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: combating corruption for a flawed judicial process, because remember the

944
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: primary threats of the primary potential for corruption in the

945
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: judicial branch is the fact that judges are often appointed

946
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: rather than elected. And you know, if you get ring

947
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: Raith status and you're one of the supremes, then you're

948
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: in there for life or until you cry uncle, uncle Sam.

949
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: I guess. So there is this it's meant to and

950
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: I think it's well intention and it's meant to be.

951
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: It's meant to give the executive branch the ability to

952
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: directly combat corruption in some other way, you know. Uh,

953
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: And it plays a huge role, or like clemency as

954
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: while plays a huge role when we talk about capital punishment,

955
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: which the US has just historically not done a great

956
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: job with, right And you can't you can go back

957
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: after you've killed an innocent person and admit that you

958
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: killed an innocent person, but they're still dead, you know.

959
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: So there's a lot writing on this, but pardons are

960
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: I think, still going to be controversial for a long time,

961
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: regardless of the administration agreed, and hey, we're gonna end here.

962
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for writing in Robert, and and

963
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: thank you so much, bridget Uh. If you are if

964
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 1: you are affiliated, by the way, in any shape, form

965
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 1: or fashion with a mattress store, give us the scoop,

966
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, You could contact us. You

967
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: can contact us directly. Uh. We we can't wait to

968
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: hear from you. And if you're a mattress sponsor, hey,

969
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,439
Speaker 1: we're we're looking for him, so come come our way.

970
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: And as as we said earlier, of course, if you

971
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: are a former member of q and on or you

972
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: are currently you currently believe that there is still some

973
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: sand to some of this stuff, even if not all

974
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: of it, then we'd love to hear from you as well.

975
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: You can find us in the usual social media spots.

976
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy stuff and conspiracy stuff show on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.

977
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: You can also find us on our Facebook group. Here's

978
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy, that's right. If you don't want

979
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: to use social media, hey check it out. Pick that

980
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: thing up that you're on TikTok on all day and

981
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: give us a call. We are one eight three three

982
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: st d w y t K. You can leave us

983
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: a message you will hear Ben, you will know exactly

984
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: what to do, and we'll listen for three minutes. I

985
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: am putting out a call to you, though I do

986
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: have one request. We have been getting in so many voicemails.

987
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: Please do your absolute best to leave one message, and

988
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: don't don't send us like four in a row or

989
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: five in a row. Our voicemailbox literally can only hold

990
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: so many and we are filling up faster than we

991
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: can hear them. So uh, please do call us. Just

992
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: call us one time and make it succinct, and we

993
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: would appreciate you very much. And if you don't want

994
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: to do that, there is a good old fashioned way

995
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: to contact us through that email. We are conspiracy at

996
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want you

997
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: to know is a production of I Heart Radio. For

998
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart

999
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1000
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: favorite shows.