1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: You can't go through IBF and still be one hundred 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: percent of the same person you are when you first 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: started out. It's going to change you. 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: I'm sitting with Sydney in her home outside of Nashville. 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 2: She's holding her baby daughter, who's giving me sweet eyes 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: and dribbling on her bib. 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: I know how lucky we are that we did have 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: best case scenario, and I know the others you're still 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: trying to get there, and I just really hope for 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: the best. 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 2: My heart hurts for them. Sydney's daughter's name is Story 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 2: for the story she represents. Sydney gave birth to her 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: in May twenty twenty five, just a little over a 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: year after the Center for Reproductive Health shut down. She 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 2: was born from one of the embryos that Sydney managed 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: to retrieve from the clinic right before it closed and 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: the state took over control of the crogenic tanks. 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: We had gone back and forth, and I was like, well, 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: what if we name her story. She has such a story. 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: We went through so much to get here to this point, 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: from me having an ectopic pregnancy to going through all 22 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: the things we did the fertility clinic, and she was 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: our little embryo that could. I will definitely share all 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: the things that we went through to have her one 25 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: day and hope she knows like how I wanted she 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: was to. She's her best, little sweet story. 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: We love her to pieces, and maybe here is where 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: those old fairy tales return, the ones where women sacrifice 29 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: everything for a child. For Sydney, her fertility journey was 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: a wild and unpredictable experience. She lived through a burst, 31 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: fallopian tube, surgeries and egg retrieval, an embryo rescue mission, 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: and multiple transfers before she got her happy endings. 33 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: Honestly, the baby snuggles are unmatched. I love a good 34 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: baby snuggle with a little nap, but it's all so sweet. 35 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: And I know that even though sometimes the days are 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: long and I don't get the most sleep, that it's 37 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: gonna pass bay so fast and she'll be going to 38 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: school and everything before I know it. So I'm just 39 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: trying to soak it all up. 40 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 2: I'm Melissa Jelson from School of Humans and iHeart podcasts. 41 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: This is what happened in Nashville Episode six, Beginnings and Endings. 42 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: When Sydney had story, it felt like there was finally 43 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: some good news after the abrupt closure of the Center 44 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: for Reproductive Health. Though even this happy out came with 45 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: a bittersweet edge. She was the only patient, as far 46 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: as I could tell, who managed to get her embryos 47 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 2: out before the clinic shut down, which meant she got 48 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: a head start on moving and using them. For everyone 49 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: else who had embryos in storage, they had to wait 50 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 2: from April to November, about seven months, and by then 51 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: Sydney was already three months pregnant. She told me she 52 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: felt terrible about that, almost a sense of survivor's guilt, 53 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: that she was able to move forward while others were 54 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: stuck in limbo. So she was careful about what she 55 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: shared publicly in the Facebook support group, wanting the focus 56 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: to remain on the patients with more pressing needs. 57 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: It may be extremely nervous like to share, just because 58 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: I know what that feels like. It's a gut punch, 59 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, to see the people experience pregnancy while their 60 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: embryos are still being inventoried. I would never want to 61 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: hurt their feelings. 62 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: But she did confide in one person, another former CRH patient, Mary. 63 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: Having Mary like completely changed everything for me, because like 64 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: I had somebody to talk to that not only like listened, 65 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: but I actually like understood, completely understood. I will say 66 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: that the people that you do meet while going through 67 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: IVF are some of the best people. So that's one 68 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: thing that I think before that because of this, because 69 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: of what doctor Basquez has done, I will have lifelong 70 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: friends like Mary. 71 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: As you may remember, Mary was the woman who had 72 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: an appointment this same morning as Sydney, but wasn't told 73 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: about the clinic's imminent closure. Like so many others, Mary 74 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: had embryos in storage, trapped behind closed doors and procedural 75 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: red tape. Her dilemma, which Mary spoke about on the news, 76 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: caught the attention of another local couple who offered to 77 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: donate their unused embryos to her. Running out of time 78 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: and patience, Mary used them and it worked. She got pregnant, 79 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 2: and because Mary's son was premature, she actually gave birth 80 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: a few weeks before Sydney. 81 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 3: He's a five and a half months and he just 82 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 3: learned how to roll over from his back to tummy, 83 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 3: so now he's just kind. 84 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 4: Of rolling all over the place. So that's really cute. 85 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: When I talked to Mary in the throes of new parenthood, 86 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: I was struck by just how different she seemed. During 87 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: most of our conversations over the past year and a half, 88 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: she'd been angry, frustrated, and sad. Now she had a 89 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: lightness about her. She was smiling. He has the best 90 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: belly laughs. 91 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: His armpits are really ticklish, and so he does this 92 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 3: like big belly laugh when you tickle him, and it 93 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: just is like it makes you laugh so hard you 94 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 3: cry because it's the cutest thing you've ever like, Oh, 95 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 3: I don't know. I spend every minute I can on 96 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: the floor with him, just like doing tummy time, talking, playing, 97 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 3: and everything about him is just the best. 98 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: Motherhood has reshaped Mary's life in ways she's still processing. 99 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: I don't even know how to explain it. It's everything 100 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 3: and more. It's probably more. I mean, it's exhausting, but 101 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: like in the best way. I just I love it. 102 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: I love every aspect of it, all the stages. 103 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 2: After the Center for Reproductive Health shut down, Mary became 104 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: a patient at a different fertility clinic, the Nashville Fertility Center, 105 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: which was where she had her embryo transfer. With everything 106 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 2: Mary and her husband had been through, establishing care somewhere 107 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 2: new required a leap of faith, a willingness to trust again. 108 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: But the new clinic made it easy almost immediately. She 109 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: told me, the difference in care felt unmistakable. 110 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 3: I mean, the Nashville facility dinner, it's just you know, 111 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: the nurses call you back same day. 112 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: The doctor's care so much. 113 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 3: When we went for my first appointment with them, the 114 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 3: doctor told me that he had spent two hours on 115 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 3: the weekend reviewing my file before my appointment, and he 116 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 3: wrote up notes from my experience before even talking to 117 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 3: me to feel like he was also coming in prepared 118 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 3: instead of just being hit with. 119 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 5: A thousand pages of medical records. 120 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 3: So he really took the time on his days off 121 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: even to prepare for our appointment. And to me, I 122 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 3: will never forget that. 123 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: Now with fertility care, she feels she can trust. Mary 124 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: wants to try for another baby soon. She finally has 125 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: access to the two embryos she and her husband had 126 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: in storage at CRCH, the ones created with donor eggs 127 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: and her husband's sperm. 128 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 3: I'm already so ready to do another transfer. I'm like, 129 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: you know, we're planning on doing one in February. So 130 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: we just got cleared. Actually, actually today I had appointments, 131 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 3: and we just got cleared and everything looks really good. 132 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: So we're gonna move forward in February with another one 133 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 3: with our actual embryos. 134 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: Since Mary successfully got pregnant and gave birth from her 135 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: first embryo transfer with the Nashville Fertility Center, she's hopeful 136 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: about her chances of doing it again, but she still 137 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: worries that her two embryos that were trapped at CRH 138 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: after it shut down might have been compromised while stored 139 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: there or during the transport process. 140 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 3: Will A pardon me always feel like if this doesn't work, 141 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 3: it's because of how they were taken care of. Absolutely, 142 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 3: but it's something I'll have to work through. That anger, 143 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: that sadness. I'm trying to learn how to process that still, 144 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 3: but it's getting there. 145 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: Beyond the immediate concerns about her embryos, her quick success 146 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: with the Nashville Fertility Center also raises a bigger, more 147 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: painful question. Mary can't help but wonder would things have 148 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: turned out differently if she hadn't started her IVF journey 149 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: at the Center for Reproductive Health. She did two IVF 150 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: cycles with doctor Vaskez, ending up with just one embryo 151 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: an embryo that didn't implant. After that, she says she 152 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: was encouraged to move on to donor eggs and told 153 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: that her own genetics were likely the issue. But what 154 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: if that wasn't true. She can't stop thinking about whether 155 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: she might have conceived sooner and with her own eggs 156 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: if she'd been at a different clinic from the beginning. 157 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 3: Even the specialty doctor I'm with now at the Nashville 158 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 3: Fertility Center, we had a really long meeting a month 159 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: ago and she was just like, I really think you 160 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 3: could be successful if we did a round of IBF, 161 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: like using the protocols here. She wished we had the 162 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 3: money to do around because she feels that we could 163 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 3: be more be successful with having a baby with both 164 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 3: our genes. 165 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 2: But another round of IVF is not in the cards 166 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: for the couple if the two embryos they already have 167 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 2: don't work, they've agreed that they'll be done with fertility treatments. 168 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: We've put so much of our money, like we we 169 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: can't move into a bigger house because I mean, we 170 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: just we've poured every year's worth of my husband's Christmas 171 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: bonuses into fertility for six years. If we keep going, 172 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: We're gonna take away from our son. It's going to 173 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 3: take away from him if I'm at appointments all the time, 174 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 3: or if I'm on you know, hormone treatments and not 175 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: in you know, they don't make you very fun, And 176 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 3: just the expense of it all takes away from us 177 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 3: being able to like move forward in our lives. So 178 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: it's not just about me and my husband anymore. 179 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: Mary's not the only one left with lingering what ifs. 180 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: Over the year and a half I spent reporting this case, 181 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: I heard it again and again from other patients. Would 182 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: our story have been different at another clinic? The truth 183 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: is there's no easy answer. Even with excellent doctors, well 184 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: trained staff, and impeccable care, not everyone succeeds with fertility treatment. 185 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: There's that nearly twenty five percent who try for years 186 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 2: but never end up with a child. Sometimes there's simply 187 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 2: no clear explanation. You can't necessarily tell if you're unsuccessful 188 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: because of bad luck, biology or if the care you've 189 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: got wasn't very good. Even for women who ultimately did 190 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: have a child at CRH, there are stubborn questions about 191 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: the quality of care they received. Here's Kristin Wall, who 192 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: we heard from an episode four she and her wife 193 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: had gone to CRH for reciprocal IVF. 194 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 6: I immediately just started questioning everything. I was concerned about 195 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 6: the care I received, and I honestly thought, like, would 196 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 6: my outcome had been different had I gone somewhere else. 197 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 2: Kristen's first transfer with doctor Vascus, when she was twenty 198 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:29,119 Speaker 2: nine years old, ended in a miscarriage. For her second transfer, 199 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: the clinic recommended she transfer to embryos at once, a 200 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 2: practice that has largely fallen out of favor for healthy, 201 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: younger patients like Kristin. 202 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 6: They were really pressuring us into transferring too embryos. 203 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 5: I never I didn't want to. 204 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 6: I was really vulnerable at that time and really upset, 205 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 6: and hindsight, I probably should have jumped into a transfer 206 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 6: so quickly afterwards, but I did, and I was like, yes, 207 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 6: do it, Like just do it, because they were pushing 208 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 6: me to and I was terrified. 209 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: As you may remember, both embryos implanted and Kristin became 210 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: pregnant with twins, but soon after she had a type 211 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 2: of miscarriage called vanishing twin syndrome when she lost one 212 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 2: of the embryos in utero. This was exactly the type 213 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: of thing she'd been wanting to avoid and why Kristin 214 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: had resisted the idea to transfer to in the first place. 215 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 2: These back to back losses impacted her deeply. Then, add 216 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: on to all of that the abrupt closure of the 217 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: clinic where she'd successfully conceived her child and the confusion 218 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: in the months that followed. 219 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 6: I'd been in therapy this whole last year, like for 220 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 6: that specific reason, because I do feel such conflicted feelings 221 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 6: about everything, because on one hand, I have a child 222 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 6: and that's what we wanted, and she's beautiful and healthy 223 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 6: and happy, and on the other hand, I feel a 224 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 6: little bit robbed of that experience because I feel like 225 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 6: I spent the first year of her life going through 226 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 6: this really traumatic event and having to deal with it. 227 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: Recently, Kristin went to another fertility clinic as she and 228 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: her wife are getting ready to try to expand their 229 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: family once more. There, she discovered she had a condition 230 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: called low protein s which can cause blood clots and 231 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: early miscarriages. Her new doctor told her that she would 232 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: proactively be put on a blood thinner after she does 233 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 2: her next embryo transfer to help prevent miscarriages, But as 234 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: far as Kristin can remember, this issue never came up 235 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: at CRH. She doesn't think they tested for it. It's 236 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: possible she has developed it since, but still the question remains. 237 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: She had two miscarriages at CRH. Could those have been 238 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: avoided the challenges she faced. Kristen is now a mother 239 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: because of CRH and doctor Vazquez, and she's grateful. 240 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 6: And so I've really been trying to come to the 241 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 6: understanding with myself that it's okay to have two feelings 242 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 6: at one. It's okay to be happy that that happened 243 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 6: and also really frustrated and sad that the other thing 244 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 6: happened as well. And I understand that my story is 245 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 6: my story, and it's what led me to my child, 246 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 6: and if I'm being perfectly honest, I would go through 247 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 6: it all again just to have her. 248 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 7: I cannot think of another situation in life where you 249 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 7: are in an absolute cycle of hope and despair and 250 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 7: hope and despair and hope and despair and hope and 251 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 7: despair every single month, time after time. It's so much 252 00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 7: to bay. 253 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: I returned to Nashville in September twenty twenty five, a 254 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 2: year and a half after the clinic closed to check 255 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: in on the people I've been following. I had planned 256 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: to get together with Sydney Mary and both their babies, 257 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: but Mary had to cancel at the last minute as 258 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: she and her baby had hand foot in mouth disease 259 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: mom problems. But I did get the chance to see 260 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: other CRH patients, like Sarah and Penny. They were two 261 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: of the women who had undergone IUIS at the clinic 262 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: with doctor Ferrer Dyer, a man they say they only 263 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: later learned did not have a medical license. We met 264 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: at Sarah's house, the same place which sat together the 265 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: year before, back in twenty twenty four. That was the 266 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: same trip when we unsuccessfully tried to talk to doctor 267 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: Vaskez at the hearing. Since then, both women had moved 268 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: to a new clinic and gone through a full round 269 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: of eyes, neither yet had a child. Whatever early optimism 270 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 2: they once had the belief that treatment might be straightforward 271 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: or quick, have been discarded. Here's Sarah. 272 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 7: The last year has been extremely difficult. We took some 273 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 7: time to focus on my health, lose weight and then 274 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 7: do IVF. We had a family member, my aunt generously 275 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 7: offered to pay for IVF for us, and so we 276 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 7: were able to do it, and first protocol wasn't right, 277 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 7: so we had to stop it halfway through start over 278 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 7: with new meds. Second protocol everything was perfect. I had 279 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 7: tons of follicles, and when they got in there to 280 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 7: do the eggertry, they couldn't get to over half the 281 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 7: eggs because of a fibroid that had grown. We got 282 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 7: nothing out of it, so we have no embryos. We 283 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 7: don't really know what our next steps are going to be. 284 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 7: Right now, we're weighing multiple options. Going into another eg 285 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 7: retrieval feels. 286 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: Very scary. 287 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 7: I don't don't I honestly don't think that I can 288 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 7: mentally or physically make it through another failed egg retrieval. 289 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 2: I asked Sarah how this experience, the clinics collapse and 290 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: everything that followed had affected her. 291 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 7: I think I was so focused at a certain point 292 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 7: on the betrayal and the mistrust and how could somebody 293 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 7: do this? And obviously that's never going to go away, 294 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 7: that's always going to be there, But at this point 295 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 7: it's figuring. 296 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 4: Out how to not let that take life away from. 297 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: Me, even when everything goes the way it's supposed to. 298 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: Sarah told me, fertility treatment changes you. 299 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 7: This journey is one that people go on and they 300 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 7: don't realize what's going to happen. You are never going 301 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 7: to be the same person you were before this. Your 302 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 7: husband's not going to be married to the same woman 303 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 7: that he's married to before you start in fertility. I 304 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 7: spent the first two years of us doing treatments, just 305 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 7: like I've got to get back to myself. I've got 306 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 7: to get back to myself. But that's not reality. I'm 307 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 7: a different person and that's okay, and I need to 308 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 7: find out who she is, and that's what I've spent 309 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 7: the last eight or nine months doing. 310 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: Sarah said she'd reached a point where she could think 311 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: about life beyond treatment and what it might look like 312 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: if IVF didn't work. 313 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 7: If we get to the end of this and we 314 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 7: don't end up with a baby, then we'll move on 315 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 7: and we'll have a happy life, and we'll adopt a 316 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 7: hundred cats and animals, and we'll have a big farm 317 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 7: and it'll be fabulous. It's not the end of the world. 318 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 7: It was at one point the absolute end of the 319 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 7: world for me not to be a mom, but I 320 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 7: also have come to realize that just because I don't 321 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 7: have a child of my own doesn't mean that I 322 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 7: don't get to be a mom. I still have two 323 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 7: wonderful little nephews. There's kids in the neighborhood that I 324 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 7: Every single kid in the neighborhood comes to our front board. 325 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 7: I'm a mom to whoever needs it. 326 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 2: When Penny arrived at Sarah's house, still in scrubs from 327 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: her job at a lab, she told me that she too, 328 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: was finally learning to live with everything that happened at 329 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 2: the Center for Reproductive Health. 330 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 8: I mean, I think at this point it's kind of 331 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 8: wild to say, but I think I've kind of moved 332 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 8: past it. They never came out and said sorry for anything. 333 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 8: But I think in my mind, I have to just 334 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 8: forgive them and move on. 335 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: And she had cautiously good news to share. After the 336 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: clinic closed, she had moved on to another fertility clinic 337 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: in Nashville, where she had an egg retrieval. Her first 338 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 2: embryo transfer ended in a chemical pregnancy, but her second 339 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: had stuck so far, but her count she was five 340 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: weeks pregnant. Still, she wasn't celebrating yet, she was too 341 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: worried about the potential of losing the pregnancy. 342 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 8: I think i'm because I've had two miscarriages. It's almost 343 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 8: like I'm not pregnant because you don't want to get 344 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 8: your hopes up and then shot down. So it's almost 345 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 8: easier in my mind to just count it out, so 346 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 8: then if anything good happened, you're on the positive side 347 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 8: of that. But until I'm holding a baby, I think 348 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 8: I'm going to be skeptic. I think that's the reality 349 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 8: of it. I still test every day. I make sure 350 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 8: the line's there, which is kind of wild because it 351 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 8: doesn't really get darker after a certain point, and you 352 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 8: kind of just start to lose your test line. But 353 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 8: I think I'm going to be like that until the 354 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 8: day that I actually give birth. I think that's the 355 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 8: reality of it. I'm trying to tell myself not to 356 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 8: distress it one way or the other, because I can't 357 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 8: control it one way or the other. 358 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 2: Sadly, Penny was right to guard her heart. Three weeks later, 359 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 2: I got a text from her. At Penny's eight week appointment, 360 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: she'd found out the baby had no heartbeat. She'd had 361 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: another miscarriage at the time. This episode comes out December 362 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, the state's case against doctor Vasquez and 363 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: the Center for Reproductive Health is still active. In the beginning, 364 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 2: the focus had been on protecting genetic material and securing 365 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: patient records. Since then, the case has slowed to a crawl. 366 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 2: There's still some hope that patients might eventually receive financial restitution, 367 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 2: but so far no one has seen a dime. I 368 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: keep thinking about what accountability could even look like for 369 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: people whose fertility journeys were disrupted at such a crucial point. 370 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: Many patients told me they felt like the lawsuit didn't 371 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: truly acknowledge the reality of what had been taken from them. 372 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 2: The framing as a consumer protection case felt almost absurd 373 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: to them. A legal category meant for knockoff products and 374 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: false advertising was being used to explain what had happened 375 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: to their bodies, their embryos, their mental health, their families. 376 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 9: That's the model. 377 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 10: It does not afford any recognition for the more profound 378 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 10: nature of the loss. 379 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: Here's legal scholar Dove Fox again. 380 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 10: It says that you are a consumer and a business 381 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 10: did not represent the truth of a product, whether it 382 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 10: be a TV or nachos or whatever else. It doesn't 383 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 10: recognize your stake in health care or reproductive hopes and dreams, 384 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 10: or family planning as anything that is special that accordingly 385 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 10: would merit either greater protections, more care, or more compensation. 386 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: And yet a consumer protection lawsuit is often the only 387 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 2: legal path available in cases like this, not because the 388 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 2: harm is small, but because the law has almost no 389 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: mechanism for recognizing what fertility patients actually lose when things 390 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: go wrong. Fox calls this kind of harm reproductive negligence. 391 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 10: The law just doesn't recognize the disruption of family planning 392 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 10: as a legal cause of action. Our laws don't recognize 393 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 10: those kinds of injuries as the sort that are either 394 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 10: real or substantial enough for the law to care about 395 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 10: for courts to intervene in to compensate people who are 396 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 10: victims of misconduct. 397 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: When the law frames these losses as simple consumer disputes, 398 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 2: it misses their true weight, and that, says Fox, speaks 399 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: to a larger unease in how the US defines and 400 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: values fertility treatment. 401 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 10: We are really really uncertain in this country with what 402 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 10: it is and how we value it and how we 403 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 10: treat it. Patients are left in the dark to plan 404 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 10: family at their own risk, to steal themselves against the 405 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 10: consequences of medicine and technology when it goes awry. 406 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 2: On my last morning in Nashville, I got up early 407 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 2: and walked from my hotel room to the site of 408 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: the former Center for Reproductive Health so I could see 409 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: it for myself. I brought my toddler with me, pushing 410 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 2: her into her stroller. The walk took about thirty minutes. 411 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: As I got closer, the landscape shifted from coffee shops 412 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 2: and student housing into a full blown medical district. Suddenly 413 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 2: it was all tall buildings, neatly marked entrances, and the 414 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: kind of parking lots that wrap around hospitals like a moat. 415 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: I used to work at a children's hospital in Boston, 416 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: and the whole scene felt familiar. Everything about it projected 417 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: competence and safety. It's the kind of environment where you'd 418 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 2: go for an MRI or cancer treatment. I could imagine 419 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: as a patient of CRH, how reassuring it would have 420 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: felt like you were in good hands. I found the 421 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: right building and walked in without issue, jumped in the elevator. 422 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 2: I got off on the fourth floor, and immediately to 423 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: my left I saw the door to the now closed 424 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: Center for Reproductive Health. Through the glass, I could see 425 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 2: a darkened lobby, now empty of furniture. In the window, 426 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: someone had taped a piece of paper explaining that the 427 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: clinic was the subject of a state lawsuit and instructing 428 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 2: patients elsewhere for more information. On the sign outside the clinic, 429 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: the name of the practice had been removed. It's just 430 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 2: blank now. After a year and a half of reporting 431 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: the story, I still don't have answers to everything, but 432 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 2: I do have a theory about what happened at the 433 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: Center for Reproductive Health. It's not overly dramatic or conspiratorial. 434 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: It's something far more ordinary and in some ways more unsettling. 435 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: It's undeniable that over the years, doctor Vasquez and his 436 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 2: team helped women become mothers. There are many children alive 437 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 2: today because of his work. But running a full service 438 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: fertility clinic is logistically complex and expensive. Doctor Vasquez had 439 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: a clinical practice, an operating room, and a lab. To 440 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: keep it all going required constant coordination, careful record keeping, 441 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: and layers of internal checks. CRH was essentially a one 442 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: doc shop. Doctor Vasquez wasn't part of an academic center 443 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: or a multi physician practice. He didn't have the built 444 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: in safeguards that come from working a lot alongside other 445 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: leaders and medical peers, the people who challenge your decisions, 446 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 2: flag problems, and keep standards tight. I don't think this 447 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: is a story of intentional wrongdoing. I think it was 448 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: a slow grinding collapse, a clinic that fell behind a 449 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: physician without adequate support and no one around to intervene 450 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 2: before the consequences shut everything down. That doesn't excuse what happened, 451 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: but it does help explain how a place meant to 452 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: create life could unravel the way this one did. In 453 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: the end, I'm left with the belief that what happened 454 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: in Nashville could happen somewhere else, and probably already has. 455 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: Even in the course of reporting this story, I've met 456 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: women who've had similar, though not exactly the same events 457 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: occur at their clinics. One told me her fertility clinic 458 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: merged with another and she lost access to her embryos 459 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: for about a year, with the clinic even telling her 460 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: at one point they didn't know where they were. A 461 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: year of her fertile windows spent just waiting hoping to 462 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: get them back. So if the same kinds of errors 463 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 2: and missteps are happening across the IVF industry, often going 464 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: unreported and undetected. Then there's a bigger issue here, one 465 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 2: that should worry anyone who's looking to go into fertility treatment. 466 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: How can we prevent these mistakes and protect the patients 467 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: who are risking everything? 468 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 5: The question is how much regulation of those clinics do 469 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 5: we want. 470 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: This is Naomi Khan, legal scholar and author of Test 471 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: Tube Families. While the fertility market needs legal regulation. 472 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 5: It's someone who clearly sees the need for more oversight. 473 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 5: I recognize there's also the chance, particularly in a post 474 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 5: jobs world, where we are concerned about overregulation of the 475 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 5: fertility space. On the other hand, there's also the concern 476 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 5: that you don't want fertility clinics to be using outdated 477 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 5: procedures or medical equipment or outdated practices, and so it's 478 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 5: difficult to strike that middle line. 479 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: Still, she believes there are many improvements that can be made. 480 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 5: I would be looking for mandatory reporting of errors, not 481 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 5: just to a regulatory agency, but also to the individual patients. 482 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 5: I'd also be cooking for more insurance coverage of infertility 483 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 5: related issues, and I would be looking for making some 484 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 5: of the voluntary guidelines mandatory. For example, with respective donated damping, 485 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 5: there's no requirement that fertility clinics follow up and check 486 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 5: on any of the information that is reported to them 487 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 5: by the individual donor. 488 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: Con also stresses the importance of patient education and transparency 489 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,959 Speaker 2: around assisted reproduction. 490 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 5: That are oversight just of the informed consent process that 491 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 5: fertility clinics would be helpful. We need to make sure 492 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 5: that people understand just what the risks are, both in 493 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 5: the procedure as well as in ultimately producing a bouncing 494 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 5: baby at the end, and so ensuring that deceptive practices 495 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 5: or mislady claims are not made and out these services 496 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 5: seems to be incredibly important. There are some professional guidelines 497 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 5: and some state requirements on this, but again there's no 498 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 5: federal We have no uniformity on this. 499 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: But there are risks to any regulation. For example, costs 500 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: for everyone, doctors and patients alike could increase. And then 501 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: there is, as con mentions, the concern that greater government 502 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 2: involvement could inadvertently imperil the IVF industry. Many IVF advocates 503 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: here in the US fear that bringing more scrutiny to 504 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: a practice that involves creating embryos could backfire, leading to 505 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: new restrictions that hurt both patients and providers, and their 506 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 2: worries aren't hypothetical. Just a few months before CRH shut down, 507 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: the Alabama Supreme Court made headlines by ruling that frozen 508 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: embryos should be considered children under state law. The case 509 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 2: stemmed from a wrongful death lawsuit brought by families whose 510 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: embryos were destroyed while in storage. The ripple effects were immediate. 511 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: IVF clinics across Alabama pause services, afraid they could now 512 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: face criminal or civil liability for routine parts of treatment 513 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: like discarding non viable embryos or even freezing them, and 514 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 2: Tennessee has been navigating that same tension. 515 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 9: This bill is something that I have been working on 516 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 9: with legal and stakeholders for the last several months. It 517 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 9: has been a difficult and challenging journey trying to find 518 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 9: information regarding what minimum standards are, what the regulations are, 519 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 9: what the federal statute requires as it relates to the 520 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 9: practice of ART, which is assisted reproductive technologies. 521 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: That's Ryan Williams, a Republican state lawmaker, addressing a subcommittee 522 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: of the Tennessee House nearly a year after rh shut down, 523 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: Williams introduced a bill he said would strengthen oversight of 524 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,239 Speaker 2: fertility clinics, especially in the wake of what happened at 525 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 2: the Center for Reproductive Health. 526 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 9: The members may also know that the Attorney General is 527 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 9: trying an open case now regarding a fertility clinic that 528 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 9: closed abruptly in Nashville, and the reason for that concerns 529 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 9: me a little bit. 530 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 2: The bill would have created new licensing requirements for IVF 531 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: doctors and clinics, but it also would have profoundly changed 532 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: how IVF is typically performed, suggesting bands on genetic testing 533 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 2: of embryos and capping how many embryos could be created 534 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 2: per patient. The bill ultimately died in committee, and months later, 535 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 2: Tennessee lawmakers passed a very different bill, one that explicitly 536 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 2: protected access to IVF, But even that victory was uneasy. 537 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 2: Some legislators immediately pushed back, arguing the state shouldn't endorse 538 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: a practice that involves creating and discarding embryos. Within days, 539 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: legislative leaders were already signaling that IVF would be back 540 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 2: on the agenda next session. It was a reminder that 541 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: the politics surrounding IVF aren't settled, not in Tennessee, not 542 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: in Alabama, maybe not in any state. While I was 543 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 2: in Nashville, Sydney posted a question to the Facebook group 544 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 2: she had started a year and a half before to 545 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 2: connect former CRH patients to each other. 546 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: It has been so quiet in this group, and I 547 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: do wonder, you know how everybody's doing, Like, you know, 548 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: what's the update, because I had seen where a few 549 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: had announced that they were pregnant, and then we haven't 550 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: heard anything. So just kind of like a check in, 551 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: So I think I'm going to do that, just to 552 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: see how everybody's doing. 553 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 2: The responses flooded in. Some former CRH patients had had 554 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 2: babies like her. Others were still trying at clinics, hopeful 555 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,919 Speaker 2: that this next round of IVF, this next transfer, would 556 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: be the one. And then there were women who had 557 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 2: stopped fertility treatments completely even without success. Women like Aaron Meyer, 558 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 2: the North Carolina flower farmer who spent her retirement funds 559 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 2: on embryos from doctor Vasquez's agency. 560 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 4: Were about a year and a half out from the 561 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 4: initial trauma. It has shaped my trust, or it has 562 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 4: shaken my trust, I would say, in healthcare and medical professionals. 563 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 4: I don't trust that the industry is not out for 564 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 4: the profit. They see desperation and they see dollar signs. 565 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 4: I'm so very cynical at this point, and personally I'm 566 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 4: done with IVF. I can't stomach any more of it. 567 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 4: It's difficult physically, of course, and it's difficult emotionally going 568 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 4: through it, but it's even more difficult. You don't trust 569 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 4: the healthcare providers, and you don't trust that the honesty 570 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 4: of the outcomes of what's going to actually what the 571 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 4: what the challenges are, what the outcomes might be. 572 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: Aaron and her husband are now considering adoption instead. 573 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 11: At the end of the day, what we hope to 574 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 11: have is a child to raise together and to have 575 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 11: a fulfilling life where there's a little human. 576 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 4: Being brought up that cares who we are. 577 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 11: And what happens to us, and to have that experience 578 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 11: of shaping a human together. 579 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 4: And so adoption is the direction we're headed. 580 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 2: Erin is not sure what to do with the embryos 581 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 2: they obtained from CRCH, the ones that her clinic of 582 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 2: choice considered too poor quality to be used. 583 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 4: Our embryos technically are in Tennessee still We've taken responsibility 584 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 4: for these two potential lives, but we don't trust the 585 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 4: information on what is contained in these two. 586 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,879 Speaker 11: Embryos and what their chances are and what their issues are. 587 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 4: It's left to us to figure out how what happens 588 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 4: to them. 589 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 11: I don't know what to do with them, and so 590 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 11: at this point, because our time is limited, we need 591 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 11: to focus on how we are going to start a 592 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 11: family now, and with time and healings, it will hopefully 593 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 11: become more clear what we want to do with those embryos. 594 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 2: Looking back, Aaron knows she can't change what happened at CRH, 595 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 2: but she hopes what she learned can spare someone else 596 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 2: the same pain. 597 00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 4: Anybody coming into IBA. 598 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 11: I want this to be a cautionary tale. If I 599 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 11: knew what I know now and was starting over at 600 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 11: a younger age, I would have gone to the best clinic. 601 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 11: If you're going to do this, if you're going to 602 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 11: go through IVF, go with a clinic that has a 603 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 11: reputation for success. 604 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 4: Do your research, ask hard questions. 605 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 11: Don't take things for granted that you're hold and you're like, 606 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 11: that doesn't quite make sense. 607 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: After everything that happened at CRH, Aaron is left feeling frustrated, 608 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 2: not just by what she went through, but by how 609 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 2: few legal avenues exist for patients like her. She believes 610 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 2: choosing doctor Vazkaz's services changed the entire course of her 611 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 2: reproductive life, and it feels like no one will have 612 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 2: to answer for that. 613 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 4: I don't foresee there being any punishment. 614 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 2: She had wanted to bring her own civil lawsuit against 615 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: Vazquez to hold him to account for what she believes 616 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 2: he took from her her opportunity to birth the baby herself. Ultimately, though, 617 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 2: she gave up on that idea too. It seemed her 618 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 2: chances of success were too low for the financial costs 619 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: she'd have to expend. I spoke with a number of 620 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: other patients who came to the same conclusion. They feel 621 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 2: profoundly impacted by the clinic's closure, but their resources are limited. 622 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 2: They're still navigating that tense balance of time and money, 623 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 2: hoping to get pregnant before their biological clock runs out 624 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 2: for good. 625 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 11: When you're talking about women and families that are spending 626 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 11: so much energy trying to start a family and navigate 627 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 11: all of the components that come with that, and navigate 628 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 11: the trauma all the stuff that happened. The reality is 629 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 11: nobody has that sort of bandwidth to go after him 630 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 11: in that way. I don't know what the endgame is. 631 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 4: I don't know how The chapter closes. 632 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 2: With no resolution in sight, Arin remains in the uncomfortable 633 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 2: uncertainty of not knowing how her journey to parenthood will resolve. 634 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 2: She made the same sacrifices familiar to any fertility patient, 635 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: and yet three years after she started at CRH, she 636 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 2: doesn't have her fairy tale ending. Erin has already gambled 637 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 2: so much. How many bargains can one person make? 638 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 11: It's wasted time, wasted resources, wasted dreams. I mean, it's real, 639 00:41:50,400 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 11: real consequences. 640 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: What Happened in Nashville is a production of School of 641 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 2: Humans and iHeart Podcasts, written, reported, and hosted by me 642 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 2: Melissa Chelson. Our producer is Etily's Perez. Our senior producer 643 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 2: is Amelia Brock, with additional production by Emily Seiner and 644 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 2: Carl Catel. Theme song by Jesse nice Swanger, Sound design, 645 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,800 Speaker 2: scoring and mixing by Jeremy Thal and Jesse nice Swanger. 646 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 2: Fact checking by Savannah hugh Lee and Austin Thompson. Our 647 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 2: production manager is Daisy Church. Executive producers are Jason English, 648 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 2: Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. If you're enjoying 649 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 2: the show, tell everyone you know and don't forget to 650 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,919 Speaker 2: leave a rating in your favorite podcast app