1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: William was a boy. The way they used to make 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: them what he would call the platonic ideal of a 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: boy building things and breaking them, fixing them back up again. 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: But there were two Williams. One was the man with 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: no name, the William all of us knew. There was 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: another we didn't know, a man who wanted to be named, 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: to be known, the William who lived in his own 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: secret room. The narrow confines of an interior life with 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: space for only one, and a much darker space than 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: I'd ever imagined it would be. 13 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: That's Daniel Wallace, author and professor of English at the 14 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, reading from his recent 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: memoir This Isn't Going to End well, the true story 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: of a man I thought I knew. Sometimes, in our 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: most impressionable years, a person comes along who changes the 18 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 2: course of our lives. We develop a kind of crush 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: on that person and model ourselves after them. Daniels is 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 2: a story of just such a relationship, one of emulation 21 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: and unknowability, and finally, the uncovering of a very secret life. 22 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 23 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 24 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 25 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: I grew up in Birmingham, in Suburbsingham, Homewood at first, 26 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: and then Mountain Brook. Birmingham is this constellation of neighborhoods 27 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: and doesn't really feel like one place, but just this 28 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: collection of places. And my father, when I was in 29 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: sixth grade, after many false starts, started making money, became 30 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: very successful at the work he was doing. He was 31 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: a great salesman. So we moved from Homewood, which is 32 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: a sweet little neighborhood, to a metrorieskier place called Mountain Brook, 33 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: and it had everything. It was a vaunted place to 34 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: live and my mother and father and I lived there 35 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: with my little sister Barry and my two older sisters, 36 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: Holly and Rangely. And it was through this mix and 37 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: mingling of people in ages that was definitely not sequestered. 38 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: We were all part of this hive. I started growing up. 39 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: What was your mother like? 40 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: She was a lot of fun. She was for the 41 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: first few years of my life until I was probably 42 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: in sixth or seventh grade, not employed, worked at home, 43 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: and she and my father had a kind of tepid relationship. 44 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: She was not an admirer I don't think of my father, 45 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: and they were not always at odds, but they were 46 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: always sort of dueling with each other, and there was 47 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: this shimmering hostility and competition that sometimes would boil over. 48 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: But she was really affectionate and did anything, almost anything 49 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: that we asked of her, very very supportive, and was 50 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: there in the beginning in my early life a lot 51 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: more often then my dad was. He had to travel 52 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: so much for his business that he was gone in 53 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: a way that made his return to the house feel 54 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: as if he were a border. We established this routine 55 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: while he was gone, and if he was gone, you know, 56 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen days out of the month, we would have 57 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: our own little routines which he would interrupt when he 58 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: would get back. And so he felt that, I think, 59 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: and we felt his presence too, as being something of 60 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: an imposition on the freedoms that my mother allowed us 61 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: to have, as much as we wanted to believe that 62 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: it was this kind of ideal Kennedy esque sort of family, 63 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: which is, you know how we would imagine ourselves being, 64 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: you know, smarter, better looking. Whatever it is that we 65 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: wanted to believe about ourselves wasn't true. When my dad 66 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,119 Speaker 1: found his success, he became the person that he wanted 67 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: to become because he was so so ambitious and so 68 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: hard working. He sort of filled his own shoes and 69 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: saw me, I think, as the next chapter. He never 70 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: had the success that he needed in order to see 71 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: me in his sights as a potential follow up to 72 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: who he was. So one we moved from Homewood, I 73 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: left public school and went to the private school a 74 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: couple of miles away. He and my mother actually were 75 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: no happier with his success. She wasn't really supportive, I 76 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: believe it or not. She had said to him that 77 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: she didn't want him to make more than twenty thousand 78 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: dollars a year because if he did, he would become insufferable. 79 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: So I was in this position of being in this 80 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: private school beginning in sixth grade, wearing ties every day, 81 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: and not really in touch with any sense of myself. 82 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: I tend to think of these years leading up to 83 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: the seventh grade as this continual, almost fetal evolution that 84 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: I am still growing, that I haven't assumed a real 85 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: self yet, and that's when I met William. So I 86 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: came home from school and was standing at the back 87 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: door in the kitchen looking out, and the perspective was 88 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: at the roof of the house where we lived, in 89 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: addition to the house where we lived, which is my parents' bedroom, 90 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: and it was a flat surface with the rest of 91 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: the house was not And on the edge of that roof, 92 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: looking down twenty five feet or so to the pool below, 93 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: was William. He was cut off, jeans, nothing else, spotlighted 94 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: in the sun, his long golden hair draping over his shoulders. 95 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: I remember it as being this moment of a heightened reality, 96 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: kind of a movie moment in a way that just 97 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: wasn't the kind of experience that I usually had in 98 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: my life. He was about to jump, and that in 99 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: and of itself, this idea of this potential act that 100 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: was about to take place, was so antithetical to my 101 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: own experience as a boy in the world, which was 102 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: illustrated by me at the back door in the air 103 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: conditioning with my tie on, looking at an almost naked 104 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: man about to jump off the roof. And he did that. 105 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: He dove off the roof into the pool and lived. 106 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: It wasn't clear to me whether that was going to 107 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: be how this all turned out, but he did it. 108 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: He got out of the pool, climbed the house again, 109 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: which was no easy feet, walked across the hot tar 110 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: to my parent bedroom and jumped off again. 111 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: And your parents, they had removed a diving board from 112 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: the pool, right right. This was a pool that was 113 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: not meant to be dived into in any way, much 114 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 2: less from twenty five feet above in the roof exactly. 115 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: And that was another aspect of my life which was choreographed. 116 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: My mother lived in a very cautious kind of fear 117 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: that something terrible was going to happen to her trol 118 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: and so she choreographed, tried to choreograph our life so 119 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: that chances for harm were diminished. And one of the 120 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: ways that she did that was by removing the diving board, 121 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: which again was just maybe two feet above the water. 122 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: But before we could even get in the pool, she 123 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: had that removed. So this was the life that I 124 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: understood is being safe and sane. And then here comes 125 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: William jumping off the roof ten and a half times 126 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: higher than I was allowed to go. 127 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: Well, this is the first time Daniel is really seeing 128 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: William up close, spotlet by the sun. He's not a 129 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: total stranger. Daniel knows him sort of. He knows of 130 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: him as a ghostly presence who's dating his older sister Holly. 131 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: Daniel has seen them leave together, come back together, but 132 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: that's been about it until now. On this day, in 133 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: this movie moment, he is captivated, spellbound in a way 134 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: that will continue for many years to come. 135 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: After that, I saw him more and more. He was 136 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: would be in the kitchen when I got home from 137 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: school with Holly and a couple of their friends, or 138 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: I would see him drive up on his motorcycle. He 139 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: had a look that is hard to pull off, and 140 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: it was at once kind of poetic and tough. I 141 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: compare him to this a commingling or confluence of all 142 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: these different ideas of maleness which abounded back then and 143 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: I guess still do in a lot of ways. But 144 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: there was this Shacob varas James Dean Himmingway kind of 145 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: feeling to him that was attractive in part because he 146 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: wasn't asking you to pay attention to him. He wasn't 147 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: the kind of person who was trying to get attention, 148 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: as hard as that maybe to believe by how I'm 149 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: describing him. He was very quiet and was not the 150 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: first person to walk in a room, maybe the last. 151 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: Because when he did say something, it was smart, it 152 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: was important, it was usually always right, and he didn't 153 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: need to be loud, and that, to me, not being 154 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: allowed person myself, was phenomenally attractive. That you could have 155 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: this presence without turning up the volume. So he would 156 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: come over and eventually, the way that kind of a 157 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 1: sidekick does, I'd hang around with them until they told 158 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: me that that was enough, and later as they were 159 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: getting more and more serious. It was really important for 160 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: Holly to have William accepted by my father, who, as 161 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: any father would in what is this now eighteen seventy three, 162 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: when his daughter brings home a long hair hippy on 163 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: her motorcycle, it's not your first choice for a mate. 164 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: So she would have him do tasks around the house 165 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: that none of us could do. He would build things 166 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: for us, he would fix things for us. 167 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: If something needs fixing in Daniel's family, they either hire 168 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: somebody to do it or it doesn't get done at all. 169 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: So the fact that William is handy and resourceful adds 170 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: to his particular brand of magic and allure. Daniel has 171 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: carved out his own special place in the basement of 172 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: his family's home that he thinks of as his secret room. 173 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: It's not a secret in the sense that people don't 174 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: know it exists. They do, but it is secret in 175 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: the sense that it becomes a place for Daniel to 176 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 2: call his own, his space, to keep secrets and to 177 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: live his adolescent life. At one point, he decides he 178 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: wants a water bit in his secret room. I mean, 179 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: who wouldn't. His mom actually says okay and gets him one. 180 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: But of course, what a better tricky and perhaps cooler 181 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: in theory than practice. The bed slashes all around and 182 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: is uncomfortable. But one day William comes to pay Daniel 183 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: a visit in a secret room, and William notices the 184 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: waterbed has no frame, a crucial detail missing. So he 185 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: steps in and saves the day. 186 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: And that is perfect illustration of who he was, contrasting 187 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: with who I was. I am the kind of person 188 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: who says I'm going to get a waterbed. They're cool, 189 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: and I'll get a big plastic bag and fill it 190 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: full of water without reading the other side. Of the directions, 191 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: which is you need a frame otherwise you're going to 192 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: feel like you're in the middle of the Atlantic and 193 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: a typhoon. So William knows these things. He knows what's 194 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: necessary to make things work. I think probably that is 195 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: if there was one way to sum him up that 196 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: with him, he knew how things work and he knew 197 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: how to make them work. So he measured, got the wood, 198 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: brought it back. He brought all the hammers, the tools 199 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: that saws, everything that he needed. I watched as he 200 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: assembled it and handed him nails, whatever he needed. But 201 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: again I was passive in the background while he was 202 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: building this beautiful frame for my waterbed. William and Holly 203 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: Day had taken me to see my first rock and 204 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: roll concert I was thirteen. Up until that point in 205 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: my life was the Apex. The Apergy did not get 206 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: much better than that. To be with these two incredibly 207 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: cool people that made me feel completely bulletproof. There was 208 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: nobody in the world who was cooler, and therefore I 209 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: was cool too, when the fact is I was really 210 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: just running their fumes. But the concert itself was wild. 211 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: It was else Cooper who decapitated baby heads on stage 212 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: and hung himself on stage and walked around on stage 213 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: with this bowl constrictor on his shoulders around his neck. 214 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: It makes sense in that respect that later I would 215 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: want a Boa Constrictor of my own. I wonder how 216 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: many Boa Constrictors Alice Cooper actually sold, But you know, 217 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean he kids that bowl constrictor's because of Alice Cooper. 218 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: But I was one of them. And I asked my 219 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: mother if I could have a Boa constrictor, and she said, 220 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: of course not. Snakes were one pass that she would 221 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: not go down. But I had my secret room, so 222 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: I had a place to keep my secret snake. And 223 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: Holly and William and I went shopping. They were in 224 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: on it. I got a bowl Constrictor. I brought it 225 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: home in this little aerated box, and William built this 226 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: beautiful terrarium for I'm shocked Off, as I named him, 227 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: because I was reading Slaughterhouse live by for Bonnigut and 228 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: schlucked Off didn't work out in the and for whatever reason, 229 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: my snake would not eat the mice that I gave him, 230 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: So eventually, of course I got tired of the snake 231 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: and gave him to William. I wouldn't be surprised if 232 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: that was his goal all along, because he knew me, 233 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: he knew the wallaces, our family, and we didn't have 234 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: a ton of staying power. So after he built the 235 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: frame for the waterbed, and after he built the terrarium 236 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: for the bowl constrictor, I was a co worker with 237 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: a friend of mine in high school who had a 238 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: family business selling pot. His cousins had done it, and 239 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: every generation of cousins had sort of passed it on 240 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: to the next, and it was his turn. He would 241 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: bring the pot over to my room, my secret room, 242 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: where it was safe for us to clean it, get 243 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: the stems and seeds out, bag it up into ounces 244 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: or lids, as we called them then. I don't know 245 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: if anybody calls them that now, but he would leave 246 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: the stems and seeds in a hefty bag under my 247 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: bed because there was always something left behind. There was 248 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: always something left on those stems that you could in dire, 249 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: dry times, you could sort of salvage enough to throw 250 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: a joint. And William would sometimes be in those dire 251 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: situations himself, and so he came down to my secret 252 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: room occasionally and he would say, what what's in the bag, 253 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: And I knew even then that he would not be 254 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: there chatting with me were it not for this hefty 255 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: bag I had underneath my bed of stems and seeds. 256 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: It didn't bother me. I think I knew enough to 257 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: realize that I was not going to be as buddy 258 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: the way that people his age for his buddy. So 259 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: whatever I could do to get him into my life, 260 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: it was fine. I was you know, I would definitely 261 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: bribe somebody if it meant getting him to spend more 262 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: time with me. So while I had a nice bag 263 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: of stems and seats, he would visit. He made me 264 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: a pipe. It's beautiful, beautiful, precious pipe out of a 265 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: jina tile where he had Again, this is just a 266 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: way that a lovely minor illustration of his ability to 267 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: create eight things out of the world, which is, he 268 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: drilled a hole in the side of a jina tile, 269 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: carved out a bowl in the top, and got a 270 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: little top of a coat can, the pop top of 271 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: a metal can for the carburetor on top, so in 272 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: you know, tacit trade. One day he gave me this 273 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: pipe and I still have it, and that's fifty years. 274 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 2: I guess where do you keep it? 275 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: I have it up in my office and the top 276 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: drawer to the left, I've got it up there with 277 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: my glass eyes, which I also collect. I guess that's 278 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: another story. But I've got, you know, little valuables in 279 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: this drawer, and that's right there when I'm working. We 280 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: went to see Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns they were called, 281 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: and one was just fulve dollars for a few dollars 282 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: more and the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. And 283 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: we were in the theater by ourselves, nobody else was there. 284 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: Of course, he was wearing his sunglasses he always wore sunglasses, 285 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: even inside, and his leather jacket which had all these 286 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: lovely pockets and them suitable for bringing beer into the theater. 287 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: First beer I had was watching Clint Easwood in the 288 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: Green Springs for Theater in Birmingham, Alabama, when I was 289 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: fourteen or so. With William I love the movies, and 290 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: the character of Clint Eastwood in those movies, those early 291 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: movies that he made were eerily like who I later 292 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: saw William as this really strong but detached force of 293 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: not necessarily good but not definitely not evil, somebody who 294 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: was so quiet sometimes as Clint Eastwood was in these 295 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: movies that his character was called the Man with No Name. 296 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: Tell me a bit about Holly, you know, there's so 297 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: much about Holly and William. But Holly as she was 298 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: as your much older sister. Was she cool on her own? 299 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: Were they like cool squared together or did his magic 300 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: fairy dust sort of wrap off on her or did 301 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: they each have that? 302 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 1: Oh no, they each had it, one without the other. 303 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine. Actually, he was perfect for her 304 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: in many ways, but she was more perfect for him. 305 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: She was the person who could enter a room and 306 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: every head return. She was beautiful, She was sharp and 307 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: funny and fearless, and she would say anything, and she 308 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: would answer any question you asked her. The more intimate, 309 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: the better. There's nothing that was off limits. And William, 310 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: he would fade back behind her. His nature was not 311 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: to be a front person anyway. So she did that. 312 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: She was able to go into a room and by 313 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: the time he got into the room behind her, she 314 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: would have already made friends and something he didn't have 315 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: to do. The vital never known any more body more 316 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: vital or open to take a chance in life. So yeah, 317 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: she definitely brought her own bag of tricks. 318 00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. When Holly is twenty one, a 319 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: terrifying thing happens to her physically. Daniel is only fourteen 320 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: at the time. After a series of tests, Holly receives 321 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: diagnosis that will change the course of her whole life 322 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: and William's two. 323 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: It wasn't clear what was going on at first, because 324 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: she actually woke up one morning and couldn't move. She 325 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: was like ossified. She had been at school, but she 326 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: was at home at the time and was in my 327 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: room and could not be moved from the room. And 328 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: we finally discovered what it was, a rumator arthritis, which 329 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: at the time there was nothing you could do for it. 330 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: You could ameliorate it with these gold shots and other treatments. 331 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: It was just totally pernicious and a disease which beats 332 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: you up, or it used to do that every joint 333 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: in her body. So William around the same time, a 334 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: little bit before this actually, but in the same era, 335 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: had become a kayaker. He was always an outdoorsman. He 336 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: loved camping, he loved being in nature, mountain climbing, fishing. 337 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: He was an eagle scout, of course, and so he 338 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: knew everything about knots. He knew plant jugit eat, and 339 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: he loved this solo adventure that kayaking, wise and canoeing, 340 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: and the two of them would go kayaking together. She 341 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: was out on the river as much as he was, 342 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: but this disease of course, made that impossible. She couldn't 343 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: do that anymore. Her life in every way was changed. 344 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: She had to make other plans. William, also being who 345 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: he was, he had an idea about what his life 346 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: was going to look like, which was one of being 347 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 1: outside of doing boy things with his girl. And there 348 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: was this moment where we were all sure that he 349 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: was going to leave because she was not what he 350 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: had in mind for his life. And they were still young. 351 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 1: If she was twenty one he was twenty two. He 352 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: could have easily gone off to school and just let 353 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: things sort of cool off. But he doubled down and 354 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: started taking care of her, started allowing her to have 355 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: the kind of life that appeared to be lost. 356 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: After the magical high school years of being Holly and 357 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: William's sidekick, Daniel goes off to study at Emory, where 358 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: he spends his first two years of college. When he's there, 359 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: William and Holly moved to Chapel Hill in North Carolina. 360 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 2: Daniel ends up moving to Chapel Hill as well and 361 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: finishes his final two years of college at UNC. 362 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: They moved to Chapel Hill so that Holly could go 363 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: to graduate school in political science, and for the first 364 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: two years I lived in a cinder block house where 365 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: graduate students lived. But then, through the large ass of 366 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: my father, who was really devastated by what had happened 367 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: to Holly and this ongoing deterioration of her body and 368 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: the way that her life was being made smaller and smaller, 369 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: paid for a house to be built by William So. 370 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: William designed and built a house on twenty acres of 371 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: land out in the country, down the trees, removed all 372 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: the copperheads. My hand didn't kill any of them. He 373 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: designed it so that it would be the perfect place 374 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: to what they call now aging in place. It's the 375 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: perfect place for somebody whose body was basically going to 376 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: betray them to live. Everything is on one story, totally 377 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: accessible well if there was a pool, hot tub. Once 378 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: you got in, it was this joyous, art filled, weird 379 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: different world. They lived in their art. They both made things. 380 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: Holly was be a wonderful arts herself. By this time, though, 381 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 1: William had actually discovered what his path in life was 382 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: going to be, which was as an artist on the river. 383 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 1: He's always drawn. He was always a cartoonist, a playful cartoonist, 384 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: all through high school and into his truncated college years, 385 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: but he had never been able to harness that into 386 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: any way to make a living. And what he discovered 387 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: is that he could kiak these rivers and understand them 388 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: in this holistic way and draw them so that you 389 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: could know what to do when you got to a 390 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: bend in the river. You knew how to good around 391 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: a rock, you knew where the dangerous rapids were, where 392 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: the takeouts were. And along with the maps, there were 393 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: this little narrative of characters that he would draw, so 394 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: they were instructive and funny at the same time. He 395 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: was drawing these maps and traveling and taking Holly with 396 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: him to every river in North Carolina and Tennessee and 397 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: drawing every single one of them. 398 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: And he becomes over a pretty short period of time, 399 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: once he discovers exactly what it is that he is 400 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: meant to do and how to harness it. He's found 401 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: the perfect subject for his unique skills and passions, and 402 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 2: sort of a subculture seems to kind of spring up 403 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: around his art in some way. 404 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: Yes, isn't that rare too. It's such an accident sometimes 405 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: that you fall into the thing that you are supposed 406 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: to do or the thing that you're supposed to be. 407 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: And William was able to bring his love of outdoors 408 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: of the river, of kayaking with his love of art 409 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: of cartooning, and they met in a way that took 410 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: William into a completely different zone. He did become a 411 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: cult hero in the adrenaline sports world. He became this 412 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: mysterious artist in the Whitewater culture, which back then was 413 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: predominantly macho and male. He's hewed that in his books. 414 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: His first book was a compilation of his maps. Then 415 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: he did a book of cartoons that were about reflecting 416 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: on what the culture of the Whitewater world really was. 417 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: And the next ten years he published ten books and 418 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: became iconic and still is remarkably, even though it's been 419 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: so long since he had published a book on anything 420 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: happy to do with with Whitewater. Yeah, he had really 421 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: found a way to make the life that if he 422 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: had the ability to, he would have created that is, 423 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: he'd created the life that he only could imagine, that 424 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: that habit. He seemed to have it. 425 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: All really in this life, in this home on twenty 426 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: acres that he built himself, where he and Holly were 427 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: doing their art. There's also this menagerie of animals that 428 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 2: they have with them, right. 429 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: Right Without animals, who wouldn't feel alive, there are always 430 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: animals around. They of course had dogs, cats, They had snakes, 431 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: obviously not the Bowlken stricture anymore, but William had a 432 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: couple of copperheads. They had pigs, two pot bellied pigs, 433 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: Sherman and Harold. They were rabbits. There were turtles. There 434 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: really was a kind of an Edenic menagerie of animals 435 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: they had, And occasionally they would take a blanket out 436 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: into the banks of this little river that ran through 437 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: the back of their yard and have a picnic with 438 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: all their animals. Holly said that was the highlight. 439 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 2: William had another highlight, extreme adrenaline sports, river running, mountain climbing, 440 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: mountain biking, all bringing him to the edge of death. 441 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: At one point, he tells Daniel he considers this edging 442 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: up to death as a healthy way to truly feel alive. 443 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: One day in two thousand and one, he calls Daniel 444 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: and tells him to go over to the house to 445 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 2: be with Holly. He won't be there and makes up 446 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: an excuse about why he doesn't want Holly to be alone. 447 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: This is the day William dies by suicide. 448 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: What's really unique about suicide or knowing somebody who actually 449 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: does take their own life. It changes everything that happened 450 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: before it. Do you have a different perspective on it? 451 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: When somebody chooses to end their life that way, you say, oh, 452 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: that's why he was so quiet, or oh that's why 453 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: I didn't see him for a week. You know, things 454 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: that wouldn't necessarily have seen significant suddenly become significant. So 455 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: after William took his own life, you immediately start revising 456 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: your life in light of that, trying to make sense 457 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: of it. At the same time, it is a shock. 458 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: There's nobody that I've spoken to, and I did a 459 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: lot of research talking to folks in his life. No 460 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: one saw him as a person who would do this, 461 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: So for a long time it was a mystery, and 462 00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: it was even a mystery to my sister Holly Widow 463 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: now who knew him better than anybody else. She lived 464 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: for another ten years after he died, and when she died, 465 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: and her death of course was related to room to 466 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: arthritis and a lot of other autoimmune diseases that she had. 467 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: We were cleaning out her house, my wife and i'm 468 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: and I found in the back of a closet in 469 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: her home two big boxes of journals that turned out 470 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: to be William's journals. I showed them to everybody. I said, 471 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: look look what I found. And we decided together that 472 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: it wasn't our business. Whatever was in these journals, whatever 473 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,959 Speaker 1: William wrote, there were kids, and we should leave it 474 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: be and put them in the stea dumpster where so 475 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: much stuff was going. So I agreed, and I took 476 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: the journals outside and on the way to the dimpsty dumpster, 477 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: took a detour to the trunk of my car and 478 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: put them in the trunk without telling anybody, and took 479 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: them home and put them at a bookcase. Eventually I 480 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: told Laura, my wife, that they were there, but didn't 481 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: look at them. I felt like, these are things that 482 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: should not be disposed of. He was a writer, he 483 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: was an artist. These are books by a published author. 484 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 1: But I was also a writer myself, and it was 485 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: important for me to understand this person, this man who 486 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: had been so integral to the choices that I'd made 487 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 1: in the world. He was so integral in that my 488 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: father sent me to go work for him in Japan 489 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: for two years. I was twenty one to twenty three. 490 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: I didn't want to turn down an opportunity to live 491 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: incredible country, and I went without any strings attached. I 492 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: said I would go there live and work, but it 493 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: didn't mean that I was going to go into his 494 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: business with him. And he said that's fine, just try 495 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: it out. And after two years he said, well, now 496 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: there are strings, and I need to know whether you 497 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: were going to come into the business or not. My 498 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: eventual decision was no, of course, I'm not going to 499 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: do it. The only reason I could have made that 500 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: decision was because of William. If I had an idea 501 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: of what the life of an artist should be, the 502 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: only way that I would know what that looked like 503 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: was because of William. I did not want to be 504 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: William because I never could be William. I knew that 505 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: from the get go. You know, I did not have 506 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: his No, how I did not have his strength. I 507 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: didn't have most of the virtues that I saw in him. 508 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: But he was a type of person who lived on 509 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: the fringes, outside of the mainstream, who made his own life. 510 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: He was a self made man, and he did it 511 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: through his art, and that's what I wanted to do. 512 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: I wanted to make myself through arc. But if you 513 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: don't have that person, if you don't have that example 514 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: in your life, it's difficult. It's not impossible, but it's 515 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: just much more difficult to come up with it on 516 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: your own. 517 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 518 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: William's journals sit on Daniel's bookshelves for two years before 519 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 2: he decid to read them. 520 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: I thought about them all the time. They were in 521 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,959 Speaker 1: this old antigue bookcase with glass doors, and I could 522 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: see them every time I walked to my office. They 523 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 1: were there, and I was well aware that they were there. 524 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: It was crossing the rubicon. I didn't know if we 525 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: weren't right in the beginning and our family decision that 526 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: we'd made to get rid of them, because I think 527 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: there's a real arguments be made that they're not my business, 528 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: that they're not anybody's business, that they were his private journals. 529 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: How can you do that? How can you broadcast or 530 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: read at the time, just read the private thoughts of 531 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: somebody else who didn't share them with you on his own. 532 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: And what happened was it was a parallel experience that 533 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: really led me to do it. Is after Holly died, 534 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 1: and as I experienced so inanimately with her her last 535 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: ten years, which were terrible, I started having a shift 536 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: in my feelings toward William. I hated him for leaving Holly, 537 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: for leaving Holly, Yeah, for doing this to Holly. And 538 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: of course I mean I missed him terribly, But it 539 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: wasn't my life that was dependent upon him the way 540 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: that hers was. He was her other half. He allowed 541 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: her to live in the world. You have a really 542 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: big life in the world. And when he died, that died, 543 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: and then she lost everything. 544 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 2: When you actually did, like take that leap and open 545 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: that first journal, was it coming from that rage or 546 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 2: was it coming from the kind of profound need to 547 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 2: solve this mystery, this conundrum, this not just of William, 548 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 2: but of yourself as well. 549 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: When I was finally able to get them out of 550 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: the bookcase and start reading them, I was tired of 551 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 1: hating him, and I wanted to understand what had happened. 552 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: And I didn't know what was in the journals, but 553 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: there were a lot of them, and he was brilliant, 554 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: and he was a great writer, and I knew that 555 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: there was something there. And sure enough, as soon as 556 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: I opened the very first one, it was there, from 557 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: the very first page, that he had been thinking considering 558 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,399 Speaker 1: taking his own life since he was twenty five years old. 559 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: It could have happened before this, and I missed some 560 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: of the earlier journals, but from the very first page, 561 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: this is what he's talking about, a suicidal ideation, and 562 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: this sense of his place in the world as being 563 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: so tentative and fragile, as if he were a stranger 564 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: in a strange land, so much so that he created 565 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,959 Speaker 1: self consciously created the person that we've been talking about, 566 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: this capable, brilliant man. Who is that person that you 567 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: would want with you if your plane goes down in 568 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: the Amazon and all you have is a piece of 569 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: gum and a half piece of string and he can 570 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: somehow get you out of that. He's the guy that 571 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: you want with you. He had created this very real persona. 572 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't false. You can't pretend to build 573 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: a house. You can't pretend to be an artist. You 574 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: either are one or you're not. He was one. These 575 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: are the things that he really did in the world. 576 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: But it was a very very willful creation of this 577 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: secondary personality or person that allowed the other part of 578 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 1: him to be completely perfectly shrouded. 579 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there's this moment where he writes the 580 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 2: only place in all of the journals and all in 581 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: caps in nineteen ninety five, this entry, I must not 582 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 2: let them see who I really am exactly. 583 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: And then after that he says they couldn't handle the 584 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,320 Speaker 1: real meed, which was astounding to read, because the truth 585 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: was he was the only person that couldn't handle the 586 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: real him. We could have handled him, for sure. But 587 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: again it's this old story that we struggle with, which 588 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: is that if I show you who I really am, 589 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: you will not love me. You will not like me anymore. 590 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: You like me because I've created this idea which you're 591 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: attracted to. But if you actually sell the real need, 592 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, you wouldn't give me the time of day. 593 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: And so he was that person, but in a very 594 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: sophisticated and on another plane, an exaggerated kind of invention 595 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: of self that I don't know anyone else who had 596 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: done what he did, perfected the second self as well 597 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: as he did, and by doing good, what's remarkable about 598 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: William is that the second self he created was so good. 599 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: It was great, you know, he was great, but it 600 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: ended up being the reason why I couldn't live anymore. 601 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 2: Do you think that that second self, that there were 602 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 2: a periods of time in his life where that second 603 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: self did feel like the real William to William or 604 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: was it always something that he worked to, you know, 605 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 2: sort of like the deepest cover of who he felt 606 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 2: he really was, as outlined in his journals. 607 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: I don't think that he was ever able to escape that, 608 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: because that was him, that was as real a part 609 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: of him as the self that we all knew. I 610 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: never have liked this idea that when you talk about 611 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: somebody like William as having the interior unseen persons the 612 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: real William. I don't see that as being the case. 613 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: I think that they were both real. But because of that, 614 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: there was no way that he was going to be 615 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: able to on his own separate the two. So we 616 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,919 Speaker 1: can't live like that. It's just unsustainable. Something is going 617 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: to give. And when you wake up every morning and 618 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 1: have to make a decision, as I feel like he did, 619 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: whether today was going to be the day he was 620 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 1: going to take his own life or live, and then 621 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: decide to live as he did for decades. It was 622 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: a decision that he had to make every day. That 623 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: cannot sustain itself. 624 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 2: Daniel describes the journals as the longest suicide note in 625 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 2: the history of the world. But there's more. There's an 626 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 2: envelope that is unlike anything Daniel has ever held in 627 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 2: his hands. On the front of the envelope, in Holly's handwriting, 628 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 2: is the phrase William's intense self hatred. It's clear that 629 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,760 Speaker 2: Holly opened and read the contents of this envelope shortly 630 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,839 Speaker 2: after William's death. 631 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: Yes, she read the envelope just a few weeks after 632 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: he died, and clearly had also read all the journals. 633 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: But the envelope was different. It was separate from the journals. 634 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: It was all by itself, and the envelope itself was 635 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: taped shut, and in the tape were three of hairs 636 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: from her head that she had taped there. And I 637 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: thought about it a lot. I don't know why she 638 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: did that, why she taped her hair on there. It's 639 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: one of those things that private eyes do or to 640 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: discover whether anybody got into something. You know, the hair 641 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: is broken, the seal is broken. So I would not 642 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: break that seal. I could not open that envelope even 643 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: after I'd read the rest of the journals. But I 644 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: knew that I was going to read it one day, 645 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: and I couldn't at the same time break that seal 646 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: that had Hi's sister's hair in it. So I did 647 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: this kind of a cheat maneuver where I took a 648 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: razor blade and sliced the top the side of the 649 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: envelope open, so that you couldn't tell that it had 650 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,879 Speaker 1: been opened. And if Holly, Say, came back to life 651 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 1: and looked at the envelope, she wouldn't necessarily know by 652 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 1: looking that I had gotten into it. Said, this is 653 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 1: one of those weird choices that a person makes that 654 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 1: essentially doesn't make any sense, but it seems to make sense. 655 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: And still I still feel like if I had to 656 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: do it again, I would definitely do the same thing. 657 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: I would not break that seal, and I haven't broken 658 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: that seal, but sliced open the top of the envelope 659 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: and got the three pages line paper from a notebook 660 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 1: in which William had written everything that he was most 661 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: ashamed of in his life. It was a list of 662 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,919 Speaker 1: things that he had done, but also things that had 663 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: been done to him. And it was a key. It 664 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: was a key to who had made him, maybe not entirely, 665 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:54,359 Speaker 1: but defined for me the moment that his life became intenable. 666 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: When William was a boy, he had bright red hair 667 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: his mother cut into a bowl cut. He was very, 668 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 1: very skinny. He had white skin, really white, with freckles. 669 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: He wore coke bottle glasses. He had terrible eye sight, 670 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: and he was the kid that was really the punching bag, right, 671 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: and his parents never came to his aide, apparently, you know, 672 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: they never put a stop to it. They never helped him. 673 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: And he could have been like that, you know, a 674 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: helpless character who was brutalized. But he didn't stay that way. 675 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 1: He got into the Scouts, got into the boy Scouts, 676 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: and he found this is a place where he really 677 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: excelled doing things on his own solo time, not you know, 678 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: life saving techniques, how to get it around in the woods, 679 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: how to build things. This was a world where he 680 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: was gaining power, He was coming into another self, a 681 00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: bigger and better William than he was before. And then 682 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:07,320 Speaker 1: he is abused, sexually abused by his hero a counselor 683 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: that they were on a camping trip with. And that's 684 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: all William says about it. He doesn't go into detail 685 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: about the before for the after. He just goes on 686 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: to another humiliating moment in his life. 687 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,320 Speaker 2: And all of the other humiliations are basically your garden 688 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 2: variety humiliations that everybody walks around with who's been on 689 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 2: the planet for any length of time. The sense of 690 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 2: private shame being that which you can't speak about because 691 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 2: you're afraid of being shunned. But that really is, in 692 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,720 Speaker 2: fact no big deal as opposed to this piece of information, 693 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 2: which is a whole different holoax. 694 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: It's the only thing that is done to him in 695 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:59,919 Speaker 1: this list of shame, which is not really a very 696 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: scary list, it is a very human list. But this 697 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,840 Speaker 1: one thing that was done to him is included with 698 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: him stealing his grandfather's medals from World War two, you know, 699 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 1: and having read the journals and having been writing about 700 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: it for years. I realized that his path to this 701 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: other William was destroyed, then that he was not going 702 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,400 Speaker 1: to become a full fledged William. There was no path 703 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: that way. 704 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 2: So did that go a long way for you to understand, 705 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 2: you know, to the degree forensically that you can, you 706 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 2: know after the fact, to understand more of what made 707 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:44,760 Speaker 2: William William. 708 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: Yes, if everyone who had lost someone by suicide had 709 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: the opportunity to do what I had been able to 710 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: do reading his journals, families would feel differently about everything. 711 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: Most people who do this, who die in this way, 712 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 1: die mysteriously. Even people who leave notes, they leave more 713 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 1: questions than answers behind. I had a thousand pages of 714 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: journals to read and to understand William, and all of 715 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: this anger that I had for him toward him, and 716 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: for a time, this overwhelming hatred, all that diminished. And 717 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: when you can really understand somebody, you can't not forget them. 718 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: Understanding his life changed my life. 719 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 2: And I would imagine since Holly had also clearly had 720 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,799 Speaker 2: read the List of Shame and never spoke about it 721 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 2: from the time that she would have read that until 722 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 2: the time that she died, that she must have also 723 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 2: had some greater sense of what made William William. 724 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 1: Yes, she did. I don't think that for her it 725 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,359 Speaker 1: was enough. Sometimes understanding it's not enough, and I think 726 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,759 Speaker 1: that forgiveness is possible, but her sense of being not 727 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,479 Speaker 1: just abandoned but culpable, she felt in some ways for 728 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: the choice that he made, that she became too much 729 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: for him. Perhaps that's really really hard to let go of. 730 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:39,360 Speaker 2: You talk about the nature of influence and the profound 731 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 2: influence that this man, your brother in law, William, had 732 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,240 Speaker 2: in shaping your life, so much of your life now 733 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 2: more than ten years since Holly's death and more than 734 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 2: twenty years since William's Where does that sit with you? 735 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: This book is kind of a mystery story, right. It's 736 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened with William, what led 737 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,240 Speaker 1: him to do what he did, And through the course 738 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: of that, of my reading the journals and writing and 739 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: talking to people, I try to come to an answer 740 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:21,239 Speaker 1: of a kind. But the other mystery is how all 741 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: of us become who we are, and this me that 742 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:31,360 Speaker 1: I've become is its own mystery story. But through writing 743 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,839 Speaker 1: this book, Through writing this book, which initially was all 744 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: about William, it really wasn't about much about me at all. 745 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:42,919 Speaker 1: In the early drafts, I was able to understand not 746 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,799 Speaker 1: just myself, but also what the nature of influence is, 747 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 1: or what I think it is, and how in the 748 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,279 Speaker 1: same way that I didn't want to become William, I 749 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,960 Speaker 1: wanted to become like William. I wanted to become my 750 00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:00,920 Speaker 1: version of William. I was able to take the bravery 751 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 1: that he had in his own life, but not take 752 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,840 Speaker 1: it to a river. You know, I could do it 753 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 1: on the page. I had the ability to not be 754 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:16,280 Speaker 1: overwhelmed and frightened by the idea of leaving behind something 755 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: like my father's business, which would have been the logical 756 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 1: choice for me to make, and it would have been, 757 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 1: you know, financially the better choice. But we're all little 758 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: Frankenstein monsters, you know, we're all made of different parts 759 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:36,080 Speaker 1: of different people. I am and for that, you know, 760 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: I have so many people to think because it's not 761 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 1: just one person to so many people to think. But 762 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,240 Speaker 1: William and to the degree that he is an influence 763 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 1: in my life, I didn't really fully understand until I 764 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 1: wrote about it. 765 00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 2: Here's Daniel reading one more passage from his probing revolutory memoir. 766 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,880 Speaker 1: Without William I wouldn't be who I am, but I 767 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: am not him, which is a blessing. Without William, I 768 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 1: would be something wholly different, possibly unrecognizable, a distant relative 769 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:20,360 Speaker 1: of myself, writing invoices instead of novels. And though I 770 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 1: can't imagine what my life would be like if I 771 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,759 Speaker 1: weren't a writer, being one is in a way, not 772 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 1: like living at all on a dark and stormy night. 773 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,880 Speaker 1: A writer arrives at a way station between experience and 774 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: understanding and really never leaves it. But writing is better 775 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,799 Speaker 1: than living in one way. At least, there are an 776 00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 1: infinite number of opportunities to correct your worst mistakes. 777 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,400 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is 778 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,600 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 779 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,839 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 780 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 781 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 782 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,319 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 783 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:28,279 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 784 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,759 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 785 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:53,560 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 786 00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 787 00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.