1
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,600
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A beautiful four year old

2
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,599
Speaker 1: boy is dead and now we're wondering why. I mean,

3
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,079
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

4
00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious XM one eleven.

5
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 1: Have you heard the word swaddle? I thought I knew

6
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,160
Speaker 1: what that meant. Now I'm learning a lot more about

7
00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: that word swaddle. But I think we all know the

8
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 1: word exorcism. First of all, take a listen to our

9
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,920
Speaker 1: France at WFMY. This all started back on January fifth,

10
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,159
Speaker 1: when Joseph Wilson called nine one one reporting that Skylar

11
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,520
Speaker 1: was having a seizure. Hours before calling nine one one,

12
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,040
Speaker 1: Jody Wilson texted her husband saying something happened while swaddling

13
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:05,560
Speaker 1: Skylar swaddling swaddling And why is she texting her husband

14
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: something happened with Skyler hours before calling nine one one?

15
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,480
Speaker 1: Right there? I don't like it. True. Some people me

16
00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,120
Speaker 1: overreact and call nine one one whenever you see a

17
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,760
Speaker 1: car crash or you think a child is being mistreated.

18
00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,960
Speaker 1: But I always think better safe than sorry. Correct? Why

19
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 1: does she wait that long? As a matter of fact,

20
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,759
Speaker 1: who are these people? Who are Skylar's parents? Take listen

21
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,160
Speaker 1: now to our friends at crime online dot com. Welcome

22
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 1: to Affordable Wellness, the future of healthcare. Let us be

23
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 1: your guide on your journey back to true health. At

24
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 1: Affordable Wellness, we put you in control of your health.

25
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,040
Speaker 1: That is the opening line on the web page of

26
00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,600
Speaker 1: Affordable Wellness in mount Airy, North Carolina. The owners doctor

27
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,240
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson and his wife, Jody Wilson. Doctor Joe Wilson

28
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 1: was born and raised in nearby Statesville, North Carolina. His

29
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 1: online bio says he was an Eagle Scout, did missionary

30
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,560
Speaker 1: work in Argentina, has a master's degree and acupuncture and

31
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 1: a doctorate of chiropractic. He and his wife Jody have

32
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 1: three daughters, but online they don't mention they have adopted

33
00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,959
Speaker 1: two boys. Skyler and his brother were both in foster

34
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: care when doctor Joe and Jody Wilson adopted them nearly

35
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,440
Speaker 1: two years ago. Okay, hold on right there, before I

36
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 1: go on about who these parents are. They clearly have

37
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,200
Speaker 1: degrees out the ying Yang. But wait, wait, wait, wait,

38
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 1: Karen start joining me. Well known psychologists joining us out

39
00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,160
Speaker 1: of Manhattan. You can find her at Karen dot com.

40
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 1: And that's Karen with a see, Karen, you get our

41
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:56,080
Speaker 1: Christmas and Easter cards every year, and I can't imagine

42
00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 1: having one of those Christmas cards or Easter card. What

43
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,560
Speaker 1: would you think if all of a sudden John David

44
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,040
Speaker 1: wasn't in there, or Lucy just was somehow missing, there

45
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 1: was a space there which she normally stands. Obviously, I

46
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,239
Speaker 1: would begin to wonder, Nancy, about what happened to one

47
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,640
Speaker 1: of the kids. I doubt you'd wonder very long, because

48
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: you'd pick up the phone and call me. You have

49
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,640
Speaker 1: to think, if they had these two extra children that

50
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 1: they've adopted, what in the world going on if they

51
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: have left them out of the picture, literally out of

52
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,400
Speaker 1: the picture. Okay, guys, we're hearing about affordable wellness the

53
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 1: future of healthcare. I understand. Hey, guys, join me me.

54
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 1: I'm hearing in my ear. Caitlin Becker, senior reporter for

55
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 1: Dailymail dot Com. You can find her at Caitlin Becker. Caitlyn,

56
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 1: thanks for being with us and Caitlin Affordable Wellness The

57
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 1: future of healthcare? Is that their healthcare center it is.

58
00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 1: It was mainly a chiropractic center, but doctor Joe Wilson

59
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,720
Speaker 1: did ropractic. He did acupuncture and nutrition and all sorts

60
00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 1: of sort of different modalities. What do you mean different modality?

61
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,120
Speaker 1: Like Jackie told me if she's telling the truth, that

62
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,599
Speaker 1: she's not going to be here tomorrow morning with the

63
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 1: rest of us at five to twenty eight am, that

64
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 1: she has a doctor's appointment. She didn't say she had

65
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: a what did you say, multimodality? Yeah, a multimodality appointment.

66
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,919
Speaker 1: What is that you know, Nancy? I am in I

67
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,680
Speaker 1: live in Los Angelis. The multimodalities is something we deal

68
00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 1: and all the time. So I'm sure what is a moralistic,

69
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,719
Speaker 1: holistic approach to the body. So chiropractic, accupuncture, things like cupping,

70
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,120
Speaker 1: But even doctor Joel you mean the thing Gwyneth Paltrow

71
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,240
Speaker 1: does where she has big round marks on her back, Yes,

72
00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,280
Speaker 1: which I do do and I like. But even doctor

73
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson's former Okay, see Caitlin, I can never look

74
00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 1: at you the same again. A chiropractor who has turned

75
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:12,120
Speaker 1: his chiropractic practice into a multimodality basically healing center three

76
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 1: more holistic methods. Okay, I understand that. Now, what do

77
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,839
Speaker 1: we know about the wife? Take a listen to Crime

78
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,520
Speaker 1: online dot COM's Dave mac. Jody Wilson is the wife

79
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,719
Speaker 1: of doctor Joe Wilson, and her bio on the Affordable

80
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,599
Speaker 1: Wellness website says she and doctor Joe met while she

81
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,040
Speaker 1: was doing an internship at wake Forest University Baptist Medical

82
00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,640
Speaker 1: Center in Winston Salem, North Carolina. She and doctor Joe

83
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 1: both mentioned that they have three daughters, but neither mentions

84
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,159
Speaker 1: they adopted Skylar Wilson and his brother. She mentions having

85
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,919
Speaker 1: a cat, Lucky, and a flock of chickens, but no

86
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 1: mention of the two boys they adopted out of foster

87
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 1: care nearly two years ago. So the cat and the

88
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 1: chickens make it onto the website, but not the two

89
00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,479
Speaker 1: little boys, one of them being Sky. Let us bring

90
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,520
Speaker 1: it up to the moment that baby Skylar, just four

91
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:12,599
Speaker 1: years old, goes into seizures. Take a listen to our friend,

92
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 1: reported Madison Foresee at Fox eight News. It wasn't until

93
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,120
Speaker 1: eight nineteen that night Joseph Wilson called nine one for

94
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,200
Speaker 1: help saying Skylar was having a seizure. Four year old Patience.

95
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,560
Speaker 1: Jody Wilson could be heard in the background saying it's

96
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,480
Speaker 1: my fault. Skyler ended up here at Brennard Children's Hospital,

97
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 1: where he died four days later. The doctor who took

98
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 1: care of him told too much restriction while he was

99
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 1: swaddled led to his brain injuries. Okay, right there, I've

100
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,560
Speaker 1: got an all star panel to figure out what we

101
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: can what sense we can make of these facts. Does

102
00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,720
Speaker 1: anybody know about swaddling, because the first time I ever

103
00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,359
Speaker 1: heard that word was at Christmas time as little girl,

104
00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:01,840
Speaker 1: where the shepherds found Christ in a major I did

105
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,400
Speaker 1: not know what swaddled meant. Then I later learned it

106
00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,880
Speaker 1: meant to be well, at that point, I thought it

107
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 1: was wrapped in swaddling clothes like loose blankets. It's what

108
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 1: I envisioned. But then when I had the twins, fast

109
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 1: forward many years later, they taught me. Of course, the

110
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 1: twins were extremely premature how to swaddle them for the

111
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,120
Speaker 1: next two or three weeks until they became accustomed to

112
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,160
Speaker 1: being free to move their arms and legs however they wanted.

113
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,480
Speaker 1: So I thought still it was just a mode of

114
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,920
Speaker 1: wrapping your baby up in a blanket. Now I'm learning

115
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 1: it's a lot more than that. To doctor Tim Gallagher,

116
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,800
Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner, joining me out of the state of

117
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,920
Speaker 1: Florida at pathcaremad dot com. Lecturer University of Florida Medical

118
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 1: School Forensic Science, and this is really impressive. He's the

119
00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 1: founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference,

120
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:08,320
Speaker 1: which is gaining momentum. Going strong, Doctor Gallagher, thank you

121
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 1: for being with us. Why would a four year old

122
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:19,000
Speaker 1: boy or girl still be swaddled? Because I didn't, but

123
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 1: most people wrapped the baby in very well, not very

124
00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 1: very tight, but tight wrappings to swaddle a baby. Right. Well,

125
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 1: I've had cases where the infant was swaddled and that

126
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,880
Speaker 1: was the cause of death. It was a little too tight.

127
00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 1: Oh okay, wait stop, remember you're talking to non medical doctors. Okay,

128
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 1: what did you just say? You have had infant death

129
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,480
Speaker 1: because of swaddling. That's correct, Nancy. We've had It's not

130
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,679
Speaker 1: very often, but approximately once or twice a year. You know,

131
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: I would have an infant death due to swaddling. That's

132
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 1: when the blankets are wrapped around the infant so tightly

133
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,160
Speaker 1: that the lungs are not able to expand and that

134
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,480
Speaker 1: the kid is not able to breathe correctly and they

135
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 1: die of suffocation that way. You know, a four year

136
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,640
Speaker 1: old I don't know of any specific reason why they

137
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,680
Speaker 1: would need to be swaddled. You know, they will suffer

138
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,920
Speaker 1: the same effects. They would suffer the same effects of

139
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 1: not being able to breathe correctly, of not getting enough

140
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,520
Speaker 1: oxygen to their brain. And as we know, and as

141
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 1: we've discussed in the past, it only takes about three

142
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,440
Speaker 1: minutes before the brain start suffering irreversible brain damage which

143
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,679
Speaker 1: would lead to death, you know, after the lungs have

144
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 1: been constricted to way they are with this type of

145
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:54,640
Speaker 1: tight swaddling. Time Stories with Nancy Grace, Doctor Galagi. Let

146
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,280
Speaker 1: me ask you a question, John David now at we're

147
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 1: watching a thriller late last night, yes it was a

148
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,040
Speaker 1: school night, and he asked me, Mom, how long does

149
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 1: someone have to be suffocated before they die? Because there's

150
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,120
Speaker 1: a suffocation scene in the spy thriller. What's the answer

151
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,079
Speaker 1: to that. Well, when someone is beginning to get suffocated,

152
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 1: in about fifteen to thirty seconds, they will pass out.

153
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 1: They will pass out and they will become unconscious. And

154
00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,079
Speaker 1: if that continues, if the suffocation continues, it will be

155
00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 1: three minutes, you know, before their brain starts to suffer

156
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,960
Speaker 1: irreversible type of brain damage. You know that can lead

157
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 1: to their depths, So they would have to be suffocated

158
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,920
Speaker 1: for three minutes or more, you know, to affect death.

159
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,600
Speaker 1: You know, in that person, doctor Gallagher, you mentioned three

160
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 1: minutes for an adult, I'm thinking about a child being swaddled,

161
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 1: which is kind of like I would compare it to

162
00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: positional asphyxiation, where you're you can't move and you your

163
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,240
Speaker 1: lungs can't expand you can't breathe, like when a baby's

164
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,520
Speaker 1: tipped over and it can't breathe. How long is it

165
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,800
Speaker 1: also three minutes for a baby that is swaddled very

166
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,920
Speaker 1: tightly until the baby dies. Well, you know now that

167
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,439
Speaker 1: you have me thinking about it more, you know, children

168
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,160
Speaker 1: are more resistant to you know, this type of we

169
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,479
Speaker 1: call it oxygen starvation to the brain or cerebral anoxia.

170
00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 1: They are more resistant to that. You've probably heard of

171
00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,320
Speaker 1: children who slip through the ice and go under the

172
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 1: water and have been under there for half an hour

173
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 1: and are successfully revived. You rarely hear of any adult

174
00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 1: doing that. The child's brain is more resistant to this

175
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 1: type of oxygen deprivation. So you know, in a child,

176
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,680
Speaker 1: I would argue, well, on the stand that it would

177
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 1: be three minutes or greater, most likely greater than three minutes,

178
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,160
Speaker 1: you know, for the death take effect. You know, I'm

179
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,800
Speaker 1: just thinking back about what you told me. Caitlin Becker

180
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,040
Speaker 1: joining US senior reporter dailymail dot com. You said that

181
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:12,400
Speaker 1: the father here is runs his own wellness clinic. Doctor

182
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 1: Joe Wilson, who was a licensed chiropractor, has a master's

183
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,839
Speaker 1: degree in acupuncture doctor doctorate of chiropractic. And then his

184
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,439
Speaker 1: wife he met while she was doing an internship at

185
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 1: Wake Forest Medical Center, so they both are very well

186
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:38,280
Speaker 1: versed in you know, wellness medical procedures. Yet they're swaddling

187
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 1: a little four year old boy so tightly he goes

188
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,079
Speaker 1: into seizures. Nothing about this makes sense for any kind

189
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: of medical professional or any kind of parent would know

190
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: the difference between swaddling an infant and what they're doing

191
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,160
Speaker 1: to a four year old. And to be clear, like

192
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 1: you had mentioned earlier, swaddling is a basically a soothing

193
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 1: technique that you use for infants, and no kind of

194
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,079
Speaker 1: hard and fast rule about what age you stop swaddling anything.

195
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,880
Speaker 1: Why is that? I mean, it's for infants to resemble

196
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 1: being in the womb. It is for a two month old.

197
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,079
Speaker 1: The minute the baby the infant can roll over is

198
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 1: the time you stop swaddling. So under no circumstances would

199
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,400
Speaker 1: it ever be conceivable to do this with a sheet

200
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 1: to a four year old. I mean, let's call this

201
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 1: what it is. They were restricting the child's movements on purpose,

202
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,079
Speaker 1: as I think, either a parenting or a punishment technique,

203
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 1: which is that's what it sounds like to me. And

204
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,280
Speaker 1: I think they're sort of couching this in the word swaddling.

205
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, to make it more palatable to them

206
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 1: or more palatable to others, but there's just no reason

207
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,040
Speaker 1: a four year old child should ever be swaddled, particularly

208
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: with the sheet. And they could have been a wagon.

209
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,200
Speaker 1: They swaddow him, and they put him in a wagon

210
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,400
Speaker 1: which they used for a bed. You know, Karen, start

211
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,320
Speaker 1: with me. Psychologists out in Manhattan, Karen, I remember that

212
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 1: we had a nurse with us. I first brought the

213
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,360
Speaker 1: twins home because as you will remember, I couldn't really

214
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 1: walk that well, and she swallowed the babies for about

215
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,079
Speaker 1: two or three days, and I would be sitting right there,

216
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 1: and finally I told her, I said, I just don't

217
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 1: like to see them restricted in that way. I know

218
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 1: it's going to be a shock to them to have

219
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,760
Speaker 1: their arms and legs free, but that's what I want.

220
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,200
Speaker 1: And she actually argued with me. She thought they should

221
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: still be swaddled, but I couldn't stand to see them

222
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 1: constricted that way. There was something I just felt innately,

223
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with it, much less a four

224
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 1: year old boy. Listen in the now. A lot of

225
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 1: places now they do not allow swaddling because if you

226
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 1: don't do it correctly, the child could die. As we're

227
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,440
Speaker 1: discussing where they could have tip displacement. There are a

228
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 1: lot of things that could go wrong. The problem in

229
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 1: this instance is that they were being advised by somebody

230
00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 1: who actually recommended treatment that would neg be approved by

231
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association or any therapeutics association that talks

232
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 1: about how you deal with children. Well, guess what, Karen,

233
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:17,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't just swaddling. Okay, take a listen to Madison

234
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,040
Speaker 1: Force at Fox eight. Here's a timeline. On January five

235
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 1: thirty pm, Joseph Wilson got a text from his wife

236
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 1: saying something happened when swaddling Skylar. She mentioned a problem

237
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 1: with the child's arms, an hour and fifteen minutes later,

238
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,160
Speaker 1: at six forty five, she put Skylar down for the

239
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,960
Speaker 1: night in his wagon they used as a bed. Fifteen

240
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 1: to twenty minutes later, the Wilsons heard their four year

241
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,120
Speaker 1: old wiggling in the bed and went to try to

242
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 1: stand him up. Skylar fell over. They tried to give

243
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,680
Speaker 1: him water, which she rejected after a second sip. Okay,

244
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 1: So that's the timeline that we know of that night.

245
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,600
Speaker 1: You know, I'm learning so much more. I want you

246
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,360
Speaker 1: to take a listen now to WFM wise Grace Holland.

247
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 1: She also sent him a picture of him wrapped in

248
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 1: a sheet, facedown on the floor. Duct tape held Schuyler

249
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 1: to the floor. Former foster parents filed a report to

250
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 1: DSS concerning the child and his siblings well being. She

251
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,880
Speaker 1: says Jody Wilson told her about the swaddling, food restriction,

252
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,920
Speaker 1: and exorcisms of the kids. Swallowing the child, the child

253
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 1: is so big, you have to wrap it up in

254
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: a sheet, duck taping the child to the floor face down.

255
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 1: Now I'm hearing about food restriction, an exorcism. Guys joining

256
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 1: me right now. In addition to Kurt Nurmi, high profile

257
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,840
Speaker 1: lawyer out of California, author of Trapped with a miss

258
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:46,080
Speaker 1: Arius on Amazon, and Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder, director

259
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, and star of a

260
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 1: Hitney podcast, Zone seven. I want to go to a

261
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 1: special guest joining us, Reverend doctor Bob Larson, founder of

262
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,880
Speaker 1: Spiritual Freedom Churches International and the author of a book

263
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 1: of religious cults, a New Age Spirituality. He's on Facebook

264
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 1: at Bob Larson The Real Exorcist. Doctor Lawson, you have

265
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,520
Speaker 1: told me that the first time you observed what you

266
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 1: believe to be a person, a female possessed by a demon,

267
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: and the way you described it was very convincing to me,

268
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,359
Speaker 1: was several years ago. Could you recount your experience for

269
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,360
Speaker 1: us well? Of that particular account, this was the first

270
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 1: time that I actually ever encountered a case of demotic possession. Now,

271
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,440
Speaker 1: I had previously traveled to the Far East throughout Asia

272
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,520
Speaker 1: and Africa and witness possession ceremonies there, which are pretty difficult,

273
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 1: and I'd seen him in Haiti and other places. Okay,

274
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, doctor Lawson. It's hard for me to compare

275
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:05,680
Speaker 1: our religious foundations and our medical system to an exorcism

276
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:11,640
Speaker 1: in Haiti. Okay, tell me something that I can understand. Okay, Well,

277
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,440
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is these sort of things

278
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: are accepted more readily in non Western cultures, But in

279
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 1: non Western culture it's very difficult for people to wrap

280
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 1: their brains around this kind of spiritualogy. But when you

281
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:30,119
Speaker 1: have a teenage girl who is speaking in a very

282
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 1: distinct accent that she has never really she's never traveled

283
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: me England, she doesn't know anything about how to speak

284
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 1: in a high class British accent, and this alien voice

285
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,920
Speaker 1: coming out of her body and saying I own her,

286
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,440
Speaker 1: she belongs to me, and I make love to her.

287
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: You either accept that as a reality or you just

288
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,640
Speaker 1: assume it's some type of psychoast. I stop right there,

289
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,479
Speaker 1: Reverend doctor Bob Larson. Let me ask you a few

290
00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 1: quick questions. How old was this young woman woman happened

291
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,479
Speaker 1: to be fifteen years of age. Do you think she

292
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 1: had the intellectual capability or the sophistication to pull off

293
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 1: faking it? But you absolutely, I mean that would be

294
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 1: like my daughter and son, their toys just turned fifteen.

295
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 1: No way could they have an extended period of faking

296
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,439
Speaker 1: demonic possession. To me, they just couldn't do it. I

297
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 1: don't know that I could do it, but certainly they

298
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,800
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. Of course, I've meant many people who

299
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 1: have tried to take it, but she wasn't attempting to

300
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 1: take it. And this has become a very important part

301
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: of her life. This started out earlier with her involvement

302
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 1: with bugia boards and other types of demonic practices, but

303
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 1: then it escalated to this kind of demonic cohabitation situation,

304
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,639
Speaker 1: and she was very real and very serious about it.

305
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,959
Speaker 1: The voice that spoke was not her voice. We had

306
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 1: other witnesses who were there. So this jarred my world

307
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 1: when I saw that this was happening in America. What

308
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: was the most severe possession? You've ever seen? The most

309
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: severe possession? And there would be several that I would

310
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 1: point to are cases that have required continuing spiritual intervention

311
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: and a psychological intervention lasting for months. And in some

312
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,959
Speaker 1: of these cases, there are supernatural things that take place,

313
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 1: the individual knowing things that they were speaking of, things

314
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 1: that they could not have known, citing dates and times

315
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:45,440
Speaker 1: and places, sometimes hundreds of years ago, things which defy logic.

316
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 1: There's demply no way to understand it outside of a

317
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 1: supernatural explanation, And you know why people always wanted to

318
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,199
Speaker 1: why be seeing people? LEVI take sure I've seen that

319
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: kind of thing, but the possession usually exists, and I'm

320
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 1: more subtle level. We've lived in a rationalistic environment in

321
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 1: which scientism has taken control of thinking of most people.

322
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,959
Speaker 1: That's not entirely bad, because it's given us a lot

323
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 1: of great advances. But there still is a realm of spirituality,

324
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: of good and evil, of angels and demons that exists

325
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:27,120
Speaker 1: in a parallel state of being. And when people do

326
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: things which open them their lives up to it, they

327
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,399
Speaker 1: somehow open the door. These demons come in, And the

328
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 1: classic term is possession. It doesn't mean the person is

329
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 1: a zombie or a robot. Are you suggesting that the

330
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: person opens the door to be inhabited by a demon? Yes? Okay.

331
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 1: Can I tell you something that my grandmother said. If

332
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 1: the devil knocks on your door, do not open the door.

333
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: Next thing you know, he'll come in for dinner, then

334
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: he'll be sleeping over. Then you can't get rid of him.

335
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: And that applies to everything drugs, pornography, gambling, alcohol, Once

336
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: agains the hold of you. It stays. You can't get

337
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: rid of it, Okay, doctor Reverend, doctor Bob Larson, please

338
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: don't move, but yes, no, doctor Larson. I assume that

339
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 1: exorcisms do not end up with the victim. Dad at

340
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: the hospital. Well over a span of five decades of

341
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: having done about fifty thousand exorcisms, and I do this

342
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 1: on a regular basis, six seven eight times a day,

343
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 1: virtually and in person. I've never had a person die,

344
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: nobody even come close to, okay, and had never done

345
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: in exorcism on a child of that age. You simply,

346
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: in good conscience, would not do that because it requires

347
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: the cognitive response of the person to interact with you

348
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: and tell you what's going on. Kurent nermi joining me

349
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: as I mentioned high profile lawyer analysts. I'm sure you're

350
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: not proud of this, but I have to put it

351
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 1: in there. Represented Jody Arius, the murderer who killed Travis Alexander,

352
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and he did so over his own objection.

353
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: The judge required him to continue representing her. He's written

354
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: the book Trapped with miss Arius Kirk. Okay, when I

355
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: went into the law, I did not believe in a

356
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: devout methodist. I did not believe in exorcisms. I did

357
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: not believe in psychics until fast forward Kirk and I

358
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: encounter them prosecuting. But I would never ever, ever put

359
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: one on the stand because I thought if somebody on

360
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 1: the jury didn't believe in it, then I and my

361
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: case would lose credibility and I'd lose the case and

362
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: the bag I would walk. But Kirk, I feel it

363
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: safer to deal with things. Everybody on the jury understands

364
00:23:55,119 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: science DNA fingerprints, but I believer. When I started working

365
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: with Larry King and hosting his show one night, he

366
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: didn't feel like coming in and I hosted for I

367
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: mean it was about psychic detectives, which I thought, oh no,

368
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: but one of them really turned me around. There's no

369
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: way she could have known what the information that came

370
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: to her, and she cracked a murder and she was

371
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: wrongfully arrested by LAPD and she took them to court

372
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: and got a I think a million dollar judgment because

373
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: they also thought she has to be the killer. How

374
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 1: would she know where the body is? It was amazing.

375
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: Now I steal did his day. Would not put it

376
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: in front of a jury because I don't expect anybody

377
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: else to believe what I saw happen. What do you

378
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: take what do you make of what you're hearing? Kurt?

379
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: You can never take this to a jury that someone

380
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 1: had a demon that had to be exercised. That's right.

381
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: No matter what we think of this, no matter what

382
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: we think of exorcism, the faults in this treatment. The

383
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: law does not recognize exorcism alternative THERAPI as a defense

384
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: to a crime. And we're talking about the crime of

385
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: murder here. We have danced around this a little bit,

386
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: but this is really we can call the exorcism a

387
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: tongue alternative therapy. I'm calling it murder one, and I'm

388
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: calling it felony murder, with the underlying felony being child abuse. Hey,

389
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: current Narmy, take a listen to Grace holland Wfmy doctors

390
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: say the little boy's brain was injured by a lack

391
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: of oxygen caused by some type of restriction, according to

392
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: search warrants. Hours before calling nine to one one, Jody

393
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: Wilson texted her husband saying something happened while swaddling Skylar.

394
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 1: They found wrist and ankle restraints and took lots of

395
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: digital records from computers and phones, including home surveillance video

396
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: that shows abuse. The documents also say during a search

397
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: of the Wilson's home they found a computer and journal

398
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: documenting acts committed against the children. They also found ankle

399
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: and wrist braces and straps that told investigators that those

400
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: were used to restrain Skyler during the swaddling process. Okay,

401
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: let me understand this, Cheryl McCollum, founder Cold Case Research Institute.

402
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: In addition to swaddling the four year old boy who

403
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: was so big that had to swaddle him, I'm using

404
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: air quotes for that with a sheet, not a baby blanket,

405
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,719
Speaker 1: a sheet that they needed hand and wrist restraints for

406
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: this four year old child, the one they don't include

407
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: on the website, and that also includes duct tape, Nancy,

408
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: so his wrists and ankles are bound and restrained, as

409
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: well as duct tape over the sheets that he's wrapped

410
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: in on to the floor so he has secured completely.

411
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: He would not be able to be mobile at all.

412
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: And they also gated his room, they starved him, and

413
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: they had what they call sensive alone time. This tud

414
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: was abused. And you know that I always tell you

415
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: when I respond to a crime scene. I start outside.

416
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: The first thing I noticed about that house is you

417
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: would never know five children lived there. There's no swing sets,

418
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: no basketball gold, no toys, no kiddie pool, no just

419
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: little shoe left outside. There's nothing that would indicate five

420
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: children are there. And all the curtains and blinds are closed.

421
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: This was a house of horrors. And not only that, Sure,

422
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: what do you make of the fact that there is

423
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: videotape surveillance from with in the house showing prior abuse

424
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: on this four year old little boy? Well, you know,

425
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: she took all the cameras down. Then she heard that

426
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: you know, film SD cards whatever they're called. This was

427
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: somebody so twisted she not only was doing it, wanted

428
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: to watch it. Yeah, understand that, Karen Stark, We need

429
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: to shrink what about it, Karen, Not only were they abusing,

430
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: and we've had another case like this, remember Jackie, where

431
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: they were that the parents were actually filming the abuse

432
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: on the child and the other children would see it.

433
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: Were too afraid they were traumatized too. They would see

434
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: the abuse on the one child and were too afraid

435
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: to say anything about it. Karen start, well, I hate

436
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: to say this Nancy. But the truth of the matter

437
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: is they were enjoying watching the abuse, and they had

438
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: been advised, but it was okay to use these different methods.

439
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: Why are you saying they were advised. It was their

440
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: decision to do it, But they were paying attention to

441
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: somebody who was advocating that they used these techniques to

442
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: get the children to get out of a psychological attachment.

443
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: Becker joining me dailymail dot com. What is she talking about?

444
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: He's talking about this woman named Nancy Thomas. And Nancy

445
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: Thomas is a self described parenting expert who encourages or

446
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: advocates something called attachment therapy, which is I mean, the

447
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 1: psycho psychologists can definitely jump in on that. It's not great.

448
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: But the thing that Nancy Thomas talked about worse, things

449
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: like waddling, And according to her website, Nancy Thomas has

450
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: actually talks about something called RAD which is reactive attachment disorder,

451
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: which basically talks about how the child looks at people

452
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: like enemies and they're manipulatives and they can abuse people.

453
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: There's no medical background here, there's absolutely this woman is

454
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: not a doctor, she's not a psychiatrist, she's not a therapist.

455
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: She has no expertise, and she advocates really dangerous parenting practices. Okay,

456
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: hold on, Karen Stark, Is that who you're talking about?

457
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: Karen's exactly who I'm talking about. Nancy. Well, I guess

458
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: the child does look at everybody alike there an enemy

459
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: because his own parents are torturing him. But listen, I

460
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: want you to know this about her, that she has

461
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: a note in the things that she's advocating, she herself rights.

462
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: Some of the strategies outlined in this workshop may be

463
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 1: considered inhumane and unethical by many child protective agencies and

464
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: can result in an investigation. What moron would read that

465
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: and follow it? When that's written at the bottom, this

466
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: can land you. It defacts. Wait and Nancy, this woman,

467
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: this woman, Nancy Thomas wants nothing to do with this case.

468
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: She was contracted by a local reporter in the area

469
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: and she released a statement basically saying she has no

470
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: knowledge of the incident, can't give a comment, and will

471
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: assist law enforcement. So Nancy Thomas is trying to distance

472
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: herself from this couple. It's her website still up. Yeah, yeah,

473
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: it is, Yes, it is. I'm very surprised to hear

474
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: that crime stories with Nancy. Guys, we're learning more. Take

475
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Dave mack a crime online

476
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: dot com. On January sixth, one day after Skylar Wilson

477
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: was taken to Brenner Children's Hospital and nearly one month

478
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 1: after his former foster mother filed a complaint with Social

479
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: Services fearing for his life, the Surrey County Department and

480
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: Social Services contacted the Surrey County Sheriff's Office about Skylar Wilson.

481
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: A doctor explained to a detective with the Surrey County

482
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office that Skylar had a hypoxic brain injury. This

483
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: is caused with a restriction that prevents oxygen to the brain.

484
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: According to the arrest warrant, Jody Wilson was using a

485
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: swaddling technique learned from a self described professional therapeutic parent,

486
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 1: Nancy Thomas. The doctor who had previously spoken to Joseph

487
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: Wilson told the detective that Skylar's brain injury He's were

488
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: consistent with too much restriction used during this so called

489
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: swaddling technique, plus the exorcisms, plus the withholding a food.

490
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher joining me out of Florida the founder

491
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. What is

492
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: hypoxy or hypoxic brain injury? Hypoxic brain injury is when

493
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: there is a lack of oxygen that goes to the brain.

494
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: The brain is very the brain cells, the individual brain

495
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: cells are very oxygen hungry, and once they are deprived

496
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: of this oxygen, they simply die. If enough of these

497
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: brain cells die because of lack of oxygen, the patient

498
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: will go into a coma and then ultimately they will

499
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: die from that. Guys, we are also floored with the

500
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: possibility that this child could have been saved. Take a

501
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: listen to more from crime online dot Com. The former

502
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: foster parent of Skylar and his brother remained active in

503
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: their lives even after they left her care and were

504
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: adopted by the Wilsons. She would check in at least

505
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: every other month to see how they were doing. Jody

506
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: Wilson told her about the swaddling, pouching, food restriction, refusal

507
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: of Skyler's brother to walk by himself, the gating of

508
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: Skylar in a room for excessive alone time, and the

509
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: exorcisms of both children. Skylar's former foster mother talked to

510
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: the Surrey County Department of Social Services about what she

511
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: had been told, and she was directed to make a

512
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: formal report. She filed that complaint that very day, December seventh,

513
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. I've never heard the phrase pouching. What

514
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 1: is pouching? To you, Karen start or to you joining

515
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: us from delimail dot com with us is Caitlin Becker?

516
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: What is pouching? It seems like one of you know, honestly,

517
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: I did a little bit of research on this and

518
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: not a lot of stuff comes up, and it seems

519
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: like something you would do in attachment. The attachment therapy

520
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: another another form of restricting and it almost sounds like

521
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: a kangaroo pouch. Oh that is That's what I thought

522
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: of to start with, But I was hoping I was wrong.

523
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: So apparently they put the children or Skyler at least,

524
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: into some sort of a pouch and leave him. Okay,

525
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: everything I'm hearing sounds like extreme psychological torture. Karen Stark. Oh,

526
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: without a doubt, Nancy and these techniques. She has a

527
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: whole description the woman that they were listening to of

528
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: sitting on a child and staying on the child until

529
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: the child stopped screaming and This is something that she

530
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: is advocating that these children need to be taught that

531
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: the parents are in charge, and they he had to

532
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: say please and thank you and may I and an

533
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,919
Speaker 1: alarm on their room, alarm in their room at night,

534
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: so they cannot lead under any circumstances. Let me ask you,

535
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker. Let me make sure I understand the timeline.

536
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 1: So Skyler goes to the hospital and dies. He goes

537
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: on January the fifth or sixth. I believe he dies

538
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: on the ninth. Is it true? Did I hear this correctly?

539
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: That the foster mom who had Skyler and his brother

540
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: before the defendants adopted him, she filed a complaint with

541
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: the facts on December seventh, so two days after Skyler died,

542
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: and then two days after he was first I think

543
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: twice this woman reached out this former foster parent to

544
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: express concern about how Jody and Joe Wilson were parenting

545
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: Skyler and his brother. You know, kurtin Army. Sometimes I

546
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: just want to put dynamite under defacts and blow the

547
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: whole thing up. She first reported about exorcisms, which you

548
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: heard doctor Bob Larson explaining about restricting food and restraining

549
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: and swaddling on December seven. The boy went into convulsions

550
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: on jan six. He died a few days later in

551
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: the hospital and de facts did nothing hurt and army. Yeah,

552
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: And that's really where the problem was, because this whole

553
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: strategy had been preventable, no matter what we dressed it

554
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: up as alternative therapy. The food deprivation, the movement restriction,

555
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: all these supports and straps and braces that were readily

556
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: found when they went into the home could easily been

557
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: found if there was an intervention beforehand. During these three

558
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 1: or four weeks between the initial report and the death,

559
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: this could probably have been prevented. You, Well, it wasn't

560
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: just the foster parent, the mom, the foster mom who

561
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: suspected she did something about it. I can't say the

562
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 1: same for the neighbors. Take a listen to Madison forcy

563
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: Fox eight. One neighbor who didn't want to show her

564
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: face on camera, couldn't stop crying as she talked about

565
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: four year old Skylar and wondered if she missed signs

566
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: of abuse. But they were just so pale, so white,

567
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: so tiny, I always wondered, But I don't, you don't

568
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: know one thing that sticks with her not seeing Skylar

569
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: outside is often before she learned of his death. Breaks

570
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: my heart because somebody would take a chield that they

571
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: tried to raise, and all of a sudden they picked

572
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: up one child to hurt. You know, I first noticed

573
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: that when I was prosecuting, oh I was having to

574
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: retry and murder case and had gone up on a

575
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: peal long before, when I was still in law school

576
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: and I met the family of the victim and they

577
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: were all adult now, and one of the female adults

578
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: had been out of a huge family of like twelve children,

579
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: had been the one that was beaten and molested and

580
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: is treated none of the others. I didn't know what

581
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: that meant. Bent now thanks a lot to Karen start

582
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: explaining it to me. Very often one child will be

583
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: singled out. Cheryl McCollum joining me from a coal case

584
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl, what about that? Now the neighbors

585
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: are crying boo hoo, wha and why? But they did nothing,

586
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: They did nothing, and now the child's did Nancy's. Like

587
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: I said, before, you could tell from the outside of

588
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: the house something wasn't exactly right. There's no way you

589
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: would ever think five children live there. But I will

590
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: tell you something that really shocked me, because when you

591
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,439
Speaker 1: look at what the police confiscated from the home, there

592
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: are binders and notebooks and SD cards from cameras and

593
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: surveillance cameras and laptops. This woman camp a journal, a

594
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: living diary of what she was doing to these children.

595
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: And she couldn't hide it. She even told the foster

596
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: mother what she was doing. She wasn't trying to hide

597
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: this at all from anybody. Just imagine the terror that

598
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: that little boy lived through, endured until his death. What

599
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: a horrible death, being restrained, unable to move, unable to breathe,

600
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: face down on the floor, secured with duct tape, having

601
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: lived through the Lord only knows how many exorcisms. This

602
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: was a slow murder, a slow murder. To Caitlyn Becker,

603
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: Senior reporter, Dailymail dot Com, where does the case stand now, Well,

604
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: the couple was arrested and charged. They have had their

605
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: first appearance and they're expected back in court in March.

606
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: But Nancy, there may be a little bit of a

607
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: delay here. One of doctor Joe Wilson's performer Lees is

608
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: in touch with the Wilson family, and she said to

609
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: a local reporter that they're on their fourth attorney, possibly

610
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: their fifth attorney coming soon, so there could be a

611
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: delay based on representation. Yeah, guys, take a listen to

612
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: Grace Holland wfmy Joseph and Jody Wilson are facing murder

613
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: charges in the death of four year old Skylar Wilson.

614
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: This is a there's a stack of search warrants related

615
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: to this case. The Surrey County Sheriff's Office and the

616
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: SBI are looking for evidence at the home, workplaces, and

617
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: Department of Social Services records relating to possible reports of abuse.

618
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: This all started when Joseph Wilson called nine one reporting

619
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: that Skylar was having a seizure. A Surrey County detective

620
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: says a woman could be heard in the background saying

621
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: it's my fault. Ems says the child wasn't breathing when

622
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 1: they arrived and he was taken to the ICU at

623
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: Brenner Children's Hospital. He died days later. We wait as

624
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 1: justice of the false Nancy Grace satted of Goodbye Fad