1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and this episode kicks off a 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: two part series that we are going to do looking 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: at rape and sexual assault focused in the United States. 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: And so first of all, we just want to offer 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: a trigger warning that yes, we will be talking about 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: these issues. We're not going to go into graphic detail 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: at any point, but for people who would be sensitive 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: to those topics, we just want to let you know 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: that that's where we're going to be going in this conversation. 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: And this is something that we've gotten a number of 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: requests from listeners for years now. Every now and then 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: we hear people asking us to talk about rape, to 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: talk about sexual assault, to talk about these horrible things 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: that are happening in places like Steubenville, Ohio, or more 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: recently with the scandal of the quote unquote Roastbusters in 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: New Zealand of teen boys who were making a sport 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: out of sexually assaulting young women. And what we want 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: to do with these two episodes is not so much 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: talk about the horrifying details of what happened in places 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: like Steubenville, Ohio, Maryville, Missouri, Athens, Ohio. But rather take 23 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: a step back, as we're gonna do in this particular episode, 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: and look more at the history of rape and sexual 25 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: assault and how it evolved legally, and also how it 26 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: evolved in terms of women's rights and also civil rights 27 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: for women of color as well. That's right, as Kristen 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: and I were talking about before um this podcast. You know, 29 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: rape culture is to gussed as a modern invention, something 30 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: that we are just now turning our attention to and 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: fighting back against. But the truth is, when you dig 32 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: into the history of first legislation and actual laws against 33 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: sexual assault and rape, and then going back into why 34 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: those laws were passed, you realize that there is quite 35 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: a deep, intricate history of rape and sexual assault kind 36 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: of ingrained in our culture. And I don't even mean 37 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: that in terms of American culture or modern culture. I 38 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: mean that when you go back and look at the 39 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: origins of rape law, it almost makes it more clear 40 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: what we're up against today, exactly because so often when 41 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: things like the sexual assault, the gang rape that happened 42 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: in Steubenville, Ohio, when those issues take place, a lot 43 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: of times the conversation that immediately came is up around 44 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: it involved three things, which are social media, the hookup culture, 45 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: and alcohol use. And we're not going to talk about 46 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: that today because, like you said, Caroline, this isn't an 47 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: issue of twenty one century factors. What's going on today 48 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: is a manifestation of centuries millennial worth of history, starting 49 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: all the way back in sevent eight b c. If 50 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: you look at Hammarabi's code in Babylonia, if a betrothed 51 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: virgin was raped, she was considered blameless and her attacker 52 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: was slain. But if a married woman was raped, both 53 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: she and her attacker were thrown in the river to drown. 54 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: And why is that? Why do we have this distinction 55 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: between a betrothed virgin, who might be seen as more honorable, 56 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: and a married woman. Well, this goes back to this 57 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: fundamental issue of women being perceived as property relative to men, 58 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: and a betrothed virgin has of high value to her father, 59 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: and so if a guy comes along and assaults her, 60 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: then that is a crime upon more upon her father 61 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: in a way than upon the girl. Whereas if a 62 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: woman has had sex before she is married, then her 63 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: value is probably lower and it was just assumed that 64 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: she would have been crying wolf and she was probably 65 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: just having an affair or something with this guy. Right, 66 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: And another issue um that people talk about today in 67 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: rape cases is the issue of basically consent protesting. You know, 68 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: did the woman is she making it up? So looking 69 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: back at the Mosaic law of Israel, unmarried women who 70 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: were raped within the city walls would end up being 71 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: stoned to death because if she hadn't consented, then surely 72 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: people around her would have heard her screaming yeah. Whereas 73 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: if she were raped outside of city walls. So even 74 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: if in this case she had been protesting, people wouldn't 75 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: have been able to hear her. But still the rapist 76 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: under this law would simply have to pay the father 77 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: a bride price and then he had to marry her, 78 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,119 Speaker 1: because again, women as property, marriage is an economic tool 79 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: at this point, right, absolutely, And so again we have 80 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: basically the burden of proof from a from the get 81 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: go being on the victim of rape. And looking back 82 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: at as Syria, they had a statute that allowed fathers 83 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: of rape victims to rape the wife of the rapist. 84 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: It's like a tip for a tat an eye for 85 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: an eye exactly. And those are just a few of 86 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: the horrifying rape laws that we have as our sort 87 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: of historical foundations for this issue. And we're going to 88 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: move forward and and also for listeners, were obviously not 89 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: going to be able to give a comprehensive, granular, step 90 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: by step look at all of the different rape and 91 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: sexual assault laws, um. But but we want to offer 92 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: as much of a relevant snapshot as we can. So 93 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: now we're going to focus more just on the West. 94 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: And first we're gonna look at England because I went 95 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: through an evolution in its rape law wherein prior to 96 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: ten sixty six, it was a crime punishable by dismemberment. 97 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: Right Basically you would get drawn and quartered um. In 98 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: the twelfth century under Henry the Second you do eventually 99 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: get a trial by jury, and you need corroboration um. 100 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: And and what that means in that old law is 101 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: that the woman should have made a hue and cry 102 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: after the incident. She needed to have run through the 103 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: streets screaming and crying, basically showing that she was injured, 104 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: showing that her clothes were torn to offer proof. And 105 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: that's that just echoes that mosaic law of Israel, and 106 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: then in the thirteenth century under Edward the Second we 107 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: see some important advances, both positive and negative for victims. Um. 108 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: First of all, we have the crown being involved in 109 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: all rape cases, not just in instances with virgins, and 110 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: that whole issue of the virginity construct, whether or not 111 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: a woman is believed to have had vagual intercourse before 112 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: that so often in still today, often is the line 113 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: between how much we are going to believe her if 114 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: she says that she has in fact been assaulted. Um. 115 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: But still, if you look at British law text Flata 116 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: from twelve ninety, it maintains that women simply cannot get 117 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: pregnant via rape. Just f y I. And doesn't that 118 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: sound familiar, Caroline? That does because it was Representative Todd Aiken, 119 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: who was a nominee for U. S. Senate and Missouri. 120 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: He claimed that abortion in cases of rape was unnecessary 121 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: because quote, if it's a legitimate rape, the female body 122 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: has ways to shut that whole thing down. And that's 123 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: actually not true, because if Senator Aiken knew his science 124 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: at all or new his statistics at all, about five 125 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: percent of sexual assaults actually result in pregnancy. So guess what, 126 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: We don't have some kind of magical shutdown system in 127 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: our body. But what is more mind boggling than that 128 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: is that that same old, unscientific anti rape doctrine is 129 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: still being recycled in our nightly news headlines. And it's 130 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: around this time also that statutory rape is recognized by 131 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: law for the first time, and the rule basically stated 132 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: that the King prohibits that none do ravish any maiden 133 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: within age. And two positives that emerged during this time 134 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: were um the fact that statutory rape was recognized by law, 135 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: so girl of a certain age were protected, and it 136 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: the distinction and punishments for rape of virgins and non 137 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: versions was also eliminated. But there was also the statute 138 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: of limitations that was established, which maintained that if a 139 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: woman failed to institute a private suit within forty days, 140 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: and the right to prosecute automatically passed to the crown, 141 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: which meant that rape was no longer a family misfortune 142 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: but an issue of public safety and state concern. However, 143 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: almost every time we see laws enacted like this that 144 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,359 Speaker 1: actually support victims rights, there's a little bit of punishment 145 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: that gets chipped away at For instance, simultaneously, the penalty 146 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: for rape was reduced to two years imprisonment. So if 147 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: we move to the US and talk about our specific 148 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: legal history, it is very, very tied up with issue 149 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: issues of race and class in addition to as we'll 150 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: get into women's rights. And one of our main sources 151 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: looking at this was a Stelle Freeman's Redefining Rape Sexual 152 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Violence in the Era of Suffrage and segregation. She talks 153 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: about how until the late nineteenth century, white tramps and 154 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: strangers dominated much of the discourse on sexual assault. And 155 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: if we look back at the eighteenth century, there was 156 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: this idea of the libertine or the rake, who was 157 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: this elite white man basically who presumes sexual privilege but 158 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: wasn't considered a criminal. And I think, I mean that 159 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: sounds pretty familiar. Also, we in fact did a video 160 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: talking about what constitutes something that's creepy, right yeah, creepy 161 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: versus flattering, And right there you have this issue of class. 162 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: I mean, if you have someone like for instance, today 163 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: we there was a lot of controversy over Robin Fix 164 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: Summer Hit blurred lines, because you're talking about these these 165 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: so called blurred lines between consent and not where where Actually, 166 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: guess what Robin think, The lines are not blurred at all. Uh, 167 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: consent is very black and white. But he is a handsome, 168 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: wealthy white guy who would be considered in those eighteenth 169 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: century terms perhaps more of a libertine or rape who 170 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, because he's charming and so he's given these 171 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: kinds of privileges over women's bodies. Whereas by you know, 172 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: on the flip side of that, if you happen to 173 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: be a man of lesser means, and still at this time, 174 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: a white man of lesser means, then you are a threat. 175 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: And also that ties into how rape at this time 176 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: was seen very much as a crime of dishonor, because 177 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: rape at the time too was something that really happened 178 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: specifically in society's eyes too white women of means, because 179 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: that idea of female chastity was so much more important 180 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: than any type of female actual having sovereignty over her 181 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: own body or her own self. Yeah, because you see 182 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: that there's this long held construct of rape as more 183 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: of a crime of dishonor you're dishonoring, Yes, a woman's 184 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: perhaps virginity. And I say that in quotes we've talked 185 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: about the trouble with the word virginity because it's very 186 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: specific in terms of just vaginal penetration, um. But and 187 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: also it's more extensive to uh dishonor of an entire 188 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: family at the time, rather than being seen as a 189 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: physical assault, which is what it is. And Freeman writes 190 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: that quote an ideal of female chastity that was more 191 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: significant as a measure of family or national honor and 192 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: as a form of female sexual sovereignty was really how 193 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: rape was perceived at that time, right. But it was 194 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century in the US that we have 195 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,599 Speaker 1: these suffragists and other reformers pushing for major changes because 196 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: during this time we're living in an environment where the 197 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: prosecution of rape was nearly impossible unless the woman was white, virginal, 198 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: unmarried to the rapist, in middle class. If you were 199 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: of a lower class, of a lower social standing, you 200 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: just were not going to have the same rights afforded 201 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: to you, right. And so what some of these nineteenth 202 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: century reformers were lobbying for were things like raising the 203 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: age of consent above the common law statute which was 204 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: carried over from England of ten years old, so ten 205 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: in other words, used to be the age of consent 206 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: in the United States, right, And this was occurring in 207 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: the context of the new meaning of childhood in industrial 208 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: America UM and the rise in women's politicizations. So you 209 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: have these suffragists who are pushing for more women's rights. 210 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: They are also put, in addition to many other things 211 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: on their list, push for this rise in the age 212 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: of consent. They wanted to protect children, but it was 213 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:09,239 Speaker 1: more than just protecting children's innocence and kind of insulating 214 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: their actual childhood. UM. They were also worried about venereal diseases. 215 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: Raising the age of consent would make it possible to 216 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: as freeman rights, to not only prosecute the men who 217 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: recruited young girls. You know that there are all there's 218 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: all these stories about young girls coming to the big 219 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: cities like Chicago and being recruited into basically uh, sex trafficking. 220 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: So not only would it you know, enable the prosecution 221 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: of those men, but it would protect young girls from 222 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: sexual ruined quote unquote and deter the spread of disease. 223 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: And so it was around this time that the legal 224 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: age for marriage we're not talking about consent, but for 225 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: marriage moved from twelve for girls and fourteen for boys 226 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: to sixteen and eighteen, respectively, So there was that protected 227 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: period that starts coming about during this time. Well. And 228 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: speaking of marriage, one way that that men would often 229 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: pressure younger women into having sex with them was by 230 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: promising that they would get married, because if you got 231 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: married then would be fine. So if you're already engaged 232 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, you can go ahead and do something. And 233 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: so these reformers also sought criminal penalties to discourage what 234 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: they called the quote unquote licentious man who would coerce, persuade, 235 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: pressure a young woman to have sex under the false 236 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: pretenses of marriage. But at the same time, while all 237 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: this is going on, yet again, as we see centuries 238 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: before in England, whenever you have movements on behalf of 239 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: victims rights, for protecting women, for actually giving women more 240 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: agency and more sovereignty over their bodies, you usually see 241 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: the flip side of that of some chipping away of 242 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: women's adibility. So this is also when the concept of 243 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: sexual delinquency, particularly targeted towards girls, was established, or as 244 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: I like to call it, yield slut shaming, because this 245 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: was really the the idea that there were bad girls. 246 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: They were you know, if a girl expressed any kind 247 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: of sexual interest, then she was most certainly a delinquent. 248 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: And so you had moral reformers who would create homes 249 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: for delinquent and wayward girls. We hear about homes for 250 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: wayward girls a lot of times, and this is what 251 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: they're talking about, right and in nine so right there, 252 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: at the turn of the twentieth century, the l a 253 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: Times reported on charges brought against a twenty year old 254 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: man by a fourteen year old victim. But and how 255 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: familiar does this sound to modern day media? They said 256 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: that this this girl was the victim of sexual assault 257 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: by this twenty year old man, but they made sure 258 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: to report that the victim ran with a fast crowd 259 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: who brought her two saloons and and all of this 260 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: a mo role, So they made sure to insert that like, well, 261 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: she might have been assaulted, but was she asking for it? Yeah? 262 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: Are we really going to trust her? And that's the 263 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: same kind of narrative I believe that was in the 264 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: New York Times when the Stupenville case came back up again, 265 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: Because at first it was brushed under the rug, and 266 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: then the New York Times wrote this piece about this 267 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: bizarre case but it describes the victim in terms of 268 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: what she tended to wear and what she tended to 269 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: do on the weekends. And people were thankfully and rightfully 270 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: outraged at that kind of posturing. Um. But Caroline, back 271 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: to that case that was reported on in the l 272 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: A Times, between that fourteen year old girl and the 273 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: twenty year old man. She was sent to one of 274 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: those homes for wayward girls. And ostensibly the point is 275 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: to per checked them from any kind of sexual predation, 276 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: but really the the bent of these kinds of homes 277 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: was to change the behavior of the girls who ended 278 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: up in them, to make them virtuous, pure, respectable women. 279 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: What you know, what kind of reform school the guy 280 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: had to go to? Probably none, because that, again is 281 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: something that we still see today where the question often 282 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: circles back to not how can we change our thinking societally, 283 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: not how can we raise up boys and men to 284 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: consider women differently? But what can we do to change 285 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: women in such a way so that they won't attract it? 286 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: Right exactly? I mean as self Freeman rights that often 287 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, the rapist would get maybe maybe two years 288 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: in prison, but the victim who was sent to these 289 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: homes you know, if she might be fourteen, like this 290 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: one girl we talked about, and if she had to 291 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: spend the rest of her childhood before she was an adult, 292 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: illegal adult in these homes. I mean, she could spend 293 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: seven years in this home. So she's incarcerated technically for 294 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: longer than the rapist is well. And imagine too, she 295 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: comes back to her hometown after leaving one of those 296 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: homes for wayward girls, and she's probably marked for the 297 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: rest of her life in a way, is being one 298 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: of those girls you know. Um, but we're talking at 299 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: that point about mostly about white girls. The situation for 300 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: African American women was much worse, and it's still worse, 301 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: uh statistically today. Um. But if we look in the 302 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, there were African American activists who were doing 303 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: a lot of work simply to change the legal standing 304 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 1: to accept the fact that black women could be victims 305 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: of rape. That wasn't even a concept at the time, right, 306 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: And this goes all the way back to slavery, when 307 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: oftentimes African American women were purchased for the sole purpose 308 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: of being basically sex slaves for white men. And so 309 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: it was very common at the time to perceive both 310 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: black women and men as being hyper sexual. So just 311 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: like you said, I mean, like, how can you be 312 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: raped if, I mean, that's just what you want exactly. Yeah, 313 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: And and that's for for black women, the racist assumption 314 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: is that they are always ready and willing. And for 315 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: black men, the racist assumption was that they would always 316 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: be sexual predators, specifically toward white women. I mean, and 317 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: if you look, for instance, just at the South and 318 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: the United States during post Civil War, Jim crow Era 319 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: and like up in through the civil rights movement in 320 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. And we should probably devote entire podcast tour, 321 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: but this is where the work of journalists i'd be 322 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: Wells is so important. She was one of the most 323 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: influential crusaders on behalf of those rights for black women 324 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: and changing that conversation, not necessarily among white society at 325 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: the time, but first starting and sparking that conversation among 326 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: black communities as well. Right. Inspired by Wells writing, members 327 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: of the Northern Black Women's Clubs insisted that quote, virtue 328 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: knows no color line and implored white men to treat 329 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: them respectfully because there's that whole issue of virtue. And 330 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: they were saying, well, if women are so precious, why 331 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: are black women any less precious? Why are you treating 332 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: us as subhuman? And so taking on that mantle, the 333 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: African American press itself publicized white men's sexual impunity. Yeah, 334 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: so you have papers like the Chicago Defender in nineteen 335 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: eleven headlining an article white gentleman commits rape, which would 336 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: have been revolutionary at the time because not only do 337 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: you have, you know, the very fact of a black 338 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: victim being given credibility, but you also have a white perpetrator, 339 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: right exactly. And the subhead to that article was that's 340 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: all right. It was on a colored girl, permitted by 341 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: the United States government and the Confederacy. So this was 342 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: definitely activist press trying. It's hardest to just bring attention 343 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: to the fact that African American women should not there's 344 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: no reason that they should have to suffer when middle 345 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: class white women can take their perpetrators to court. And 346 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: so when we move in into the nineteen twenties, there's 347 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: this attitude shift from the more patronizing and paternalistic wanting to, 348 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,479 Speaker 1: you know, send women away to these wayward homes and 349 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: you know, protect take them under lock and key from 350 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: these licentious men to shifting though to blame and culpability 351 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: of the victims, because yet again we see the cycle 352 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: where the whenever there's the tidal wave of women's rights 353 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: that swells, you always have the reverse happening if people 354 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: wanting to undercut that progress. Right, And so the American 355 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: Journal of Urology and Sexology in nineteen eighteen and nineteen 356 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ran articles plural warning lawyers to the great danger 357 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: that men are often in from false accusations by female 358 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: children and women. So watch out, guys. This is and 359 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: also this is this is in nineteen eighteen. I mean 360 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: going going back to what we were saying at the 361 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: top of the podcast in terms of hearing about rape 362 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: culture today as though it is some sort of new thing, 363 00:23:55,119 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: and people react very strongly to hearing that. But no, no, 364 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: this is going on. This is the same kind of 365 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: stuff that we're hearing today that was published in nineteen eighteen, 366 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen. But in nineteen twenty nine we do have 367 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: more of a formalizing of the definition of rape by 368 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting Program to include quote the 369 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: cardinal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. 370 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: But note though that that old definition only speaks to 371 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: a female victim, and that's going to remain in place 372 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: until two thousand twelve. But we will circle back to 373 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: that later. Well, we mentioned earlier that you know, sexual 374 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: assault and rape was you know, specifically seen as being 375 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: perpetrated by strangers, by tramps, transient white trash tramps who 376 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: are coming through town and attacking people. But as we 377 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: move forward into the nineteen seventies and eighties and the 378 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: rise of second wave feminism, we have the term date 379 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: rape coin to describe unwanted sex with an acquaintance. And 380 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: it was around this time too, that uh, sexual abuse 381 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: within the family was targeted. These these things that had 382 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: been basically hidden away behind closed doors for so many 383 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: years were finally being brought out into the light. Yeah, 384 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: and because of these efforts in the nineteen eighties, in 385 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, just remember that states began to outlaw 386 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: marital rape. Actually in nineteen seventies six, we should say 387 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: Nebraska became the first state to abolish the marital rape exception, 388 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: because that's right, there was an exception to these rape 389 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: laws saying, oh, actually, if you are married to somebody, 390 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: he can pretty much do what he wants with you whenever, 391 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: and he it might not be with impunity, but it 392 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: would be categorized as something entirely different and not it 393 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't carry as strict of punishments if you were somebody's 394 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: husband as opposed to someone unrelated and Caroline, I remember 395 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: watching a documentary from PBSS Maker series about Second Way feminism, 396 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: and they talked about how uh Miss magazine did a 397 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: huge spread on marital rape and talk to women who 398 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: would eventually like ended up leaving their husbands because of 399 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: these kinds of issues of sexual abuse within the home, 400 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: and how revolutionary it was because not so long ago 401 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: that idea that that could even happen was so new, 402 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: and it was so empowering for women to talk to 403 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: other women and say, oh my god, this is happening 404 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: to me too, this is happening to you, This isn't right. 405 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that it was happening in in 406 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: every home in America, but it was still happening enough 407 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: that it was galvanizing for a lot of women. And 408 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: it's really not until around this time also that states 409 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: start to revisit the whole idea of corroboration and the 410 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: use of utmost forced to prove resistance. Basically, states finally 411 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: lift these requirements that, um, you have to prove somehow 412 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: that you were incredibly injured during the assault. And we 413 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: also need to mention that in nineteen Susan Brown Miller 414 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: published Against Our Will, which was this groundbreaking book about 415 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: rape and and really it was hailed as one of, 416 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: if not the first book in the twentieth century to 417 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: really talk about these kinds of issues, and it ended 418 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: up becoming a bestseller and has become kind of a 419 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: seminal feminist text because it helped to fuel these kinds 420 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 1: of reforms that were happening. Although I mean, we we 421 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: have to say though, that those nineteenth century reforms we 422 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: were talking about, or turn the century reforms that we 423 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: mentioned to in terms of um changing laws to acknowledge 424 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: that black women can also be victims of rape. At 425 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: that time too, during Civil rights they were still fighting 426 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: for that. They weren't there. You know, there's still so 427 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: so much progress that needs to be made. It's like 428 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: white feminists were finally getting around to the issue of 429 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: marital rape, and finally, with civil rights, black women were 430 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: finally getting more recognition of them actually being able to, 431 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: you know, be recognized as as victims in these situations. Right. Well, 432 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: but you also have that entire I mean talk about 433 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: things that we could dedicate an entire podcast. You I mean, 434 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: you also have that cultural divide in terms of African 435 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: the African American community and rape and the whole issue 436 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: of not wanting to report a black woman, not wanting 437 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: to report being raped by a black man because of 438 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: the white man, the system being run by the white man, 439 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: and wanting to protect your own well protect your own 440 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: and also to finally move away from that racist idea 441 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: of the black man as being the sexual predator out 442 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: to get white women specifically. So some scholars have talked 443 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: about how that created a bit of a catch twenty 444 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: two where yes, they you know, within these African American communities, 445 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: they wanted to push for more progress in terms of 446 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: awareness of rape and sexual assault and being able to 447 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: talk about it, but not wanting to undercut any progress 448 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: that had been made moving forward away from, uh, that 449 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: idea of the demonized hyper sexual black man too. Um, 450 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: but as part of the consciousness raising that was a 451 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: hallmark of second way feminism during the nineteen seventies and eighties, 452 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: we have the rape crisis centers that we see so 453 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: often today that are a direct outgrowth of this women's 454 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 1: movement becau us. You know, feminists essentially got together and said, hey, 455 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: we need to help each other. We need to set 456 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: up some kind of uh resource center where people can go. Yeah, 457 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: and courts declared during this time that a woman's sexual 458 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: history was irrelevant in a rape trial. But I mean, 459 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm I'm shaking my head because in the court of 460 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: public opinion that is obviously still a huge problem. Absolutely. Um. 461 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: And then in the nine nineties there is increasing awareness 462 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: going on of the problem of date rape, and marital 463 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: rape by the es became a crime in all fifty states. 464 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: And again I realized with this episode where just leap 465 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: frogging through time, but even just in the snippets that 466 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: were offering, there isn't there There hasn't been a radical 467 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: change in terms of how we think about women's bodies 468 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: all that much. Yes, we have more agency, Yes there 469 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: is more organizing that was happening, you know, among women 470 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: to help other women, And yes, laws were slowly catching 471 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: up to it. But we're talking about the nineties Caroline. 472 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about how much time that is, 473 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: one would think that the changes in culture, in attitude, 474 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: in law would be much more radical, for for for 475 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: for how many years, eight hundred, nine hundred a thousand years, 476 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: to to not have more significant changes in the way 477 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: that women are viewed from from being okay, so you know, 478 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: from being mad that a woman is right because she's 479 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: your property, to being mad that a woman is raped 480 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: because she's a young girl and now she's defiled and 481 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: it's her fault, so we need to go pack her 482 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: off to a home for wayward girls, and she's dishonored 483 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: your family, right, And so we really in terms of 484 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: the ingrained ideas about women and about their bodies and 485 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,959 Speaker 1: their sexuality, we really have not come very far. And 486 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: even still rape is seen as having so many gray areas, 487 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: which is patently false because rape is rape. And yet 488 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: that is a surprisingly new concept to us because the 489 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: legal definition has been in flux for so long. And 490 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: so I mentioned that FBI Uniform Crime Reporting change in 491 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: the definition of rape in and so only in two 492 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: thousand and twelve did the FBI change its definition to 493 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: include a form of for sexual penetration of men, women, children, 494 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: and I believe also trans people as well as and 495 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: this is very important, non forcible rape. And so all 496 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: this entire discussion has been leading us up to talking 497 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: about the modern term of rape culture. What is it? 498 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: How did it get here all of a sudden, you know? 499 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: And the fact is, like I said at the top 500 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: of the podcast, this is something that has existed, and 501 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: you could question. A lot of people say, we don't, 502 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: we don't live in a rape culture anymore than we 503 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: live in a murder culture. But to those people, I 504 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: say that it is so ingrained and insidious that maybe, yeah, 505 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: maybe some people don't even realize it. Well, And that's 506 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: that's the part of the very definition of rape culture, 507 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: where it is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, 508 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: the objectification of women's bodies, the glamorization of sexual violence, 509 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: that creates a society that disregards women's rights and safety, 510 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: where it is an assumption that at some point, if 511 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: you are a woman, you are going to probably face 512 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: sexual assault if you you know, if you're not watching 513 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: what you're wearing, if you're not watching where you're going, 514 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: if you're not watching who you're hanging around, with it. 515 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: It will constantly be a threat in your life. And 516 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: it's so commonplace that it's cool to make jokes about it, 517 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: that the rape jokes can be hilarious us and funny 518 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: and and and not at all, you know, incredibly insensitive 519 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: and wrong towards the people, the many people that it 520 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: happens to. Because that's the thing. We've been focusing all 521 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: this conversation on females as victims, but it's not just 522 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: women that this happens to either, And just to tea 523 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: up for our next conversation, we're gonna look at where 524 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 1: we are today in terms of rape statistics and perpetrators 525 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: and victims and at risk populations. UM. A lot of 526 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: times the conversations that we have around rape today focus 527 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: on hookup culture, alcohol, and social media, and looking at 528 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: those three things as the variables that we need to change. 529 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: People need to stop hooking up, kids need to drink less, 530 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: girls specifically should drink less, and we need to get 531 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: rid of smartphones for kids. But eliminating all of that, 532 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: you take away all three of those factors and you're 533 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: perfect utopian. Guess what, you still have this legacy, You 534 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: still have this history, You still have these societal foundations 535 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: teaching women basically that it is our job day in 536 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: and day out, to avoid being raped. It is on us. 537 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: It's the onus is on us to not be raped, 538 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: and we end up limiting our behavior because of that, 539 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: and that is rape culture, limiting our behavior because of 540 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: this idea that we live with every day, that we 541 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: are afraid of getting raped. It's not something that most 542 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: men have to live with. And speaking of men, I 543 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: want to underscore that we are not trying to portray 544 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: men as rapists. We don't feel like men. We're not 545 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: trying to preach that men are are inherently terrible and 546 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: and it's all bad. It's it's a product. Though. We 547 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: have to pay attention to the product of this history 548 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: and of this almost self perpetua waiting cycle of sexism 549 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: and racism and classism and all of those things that 550 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: get tied up with it. But before we sep boxed anymore, 551 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: it's time now to wrap up part one of this 552 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: two part series that we are doing on rape and 553 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: sexual assault. And UH, we would love to hear from you. UM, 554 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 1: we want to know how this issue resonates with you. 555 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: So let's start a discussion. You can email us mom 556 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: Stuff at Discovery dot com, you can tweet us at 557 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast, and you can find us on Facebook 558 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: as well. Because this is an important topic, it's not 559 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: easy to talk about, it's probably not easy to listen to, 560 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: but it is crucial for us and for the generations 561 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: of people who will come after us, for us to 562 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: talk about this and not just women. Guys. We want 563 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: to hear from you two trans people. We want to 564 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: hear from you three. We want to hear from everybody. 565 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: So let us know your thoughts and we will share 566 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: a couple of letters with you when we come right 567 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: back from a quick break. And now back to our letters. 568 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: So we've got a couple of letters to share in 569 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: regard to our Women in Stem series. Because Carolina, I 570 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I never tire of hearing 571 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: about women and science. Uh So, Steven actually wanted to 572 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: write in about our engineering episode in which we talked 573 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: about how industrial engineering, which has the greatest proportion of 574 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: women among all the engineering fields. I wanted to talk 575 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: about why engineering sometimes gets made fun of an engineering school, 576 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: he writes, While it is very true that industrial engineering 577 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: gets called imaginary engineering, I don't think this is because 578 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: of how many women are or are not in the field. 579 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: In school, the majors we made fun of were always 580 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: the eyes and the civil engineers. This is because of 581 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: the lower amount of math and hard science required compared 582 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: to other engineering disciplines. Mechanical engineers take thermodynamics, electrical engineers 583 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,720 Speaker 1: take semiconductor physics, aeronautical engineers take fluid dynamics, and computer 584 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: engineers take processor design. Meanwhile, industrial engineers are laying out 585 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: factory workflows and civil engineers are deciding how much to 586 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: bank the highway on ramp. If these stereotypes related to 587 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: the genders of the disciplines, I doubt they would center 588 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: on the most and least female populated fields. Now, being 589 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: out of college, I realized that the most important engineering 590 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: skill is a methodical and scientific approach to solving real 591 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: world problems, and that is something all engineers have in common, 592 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: even if they didn't all have to take calculus for 593 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: so thanks Stephen for that engineering insight. I have a 594 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: letter here from Katie. She says, as a female nuclear engineer, 595 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: having just graduated from college in may have been working 596 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: at a nuclear power plant for about six months. I 597 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: haven't encountered any negative attitudes towards the very few women 598 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: engineers who worked there. No one doubts the intelligence and 599 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: capability of women to perform just as well as men, 600 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: but the working environment is not women friendly. Some of 601 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: it is just practical issues. Having been a male dominated field. 602 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: It's sometimes difficult to get your hands on things like 603 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: protective clothing to the right size for a woman, but 604 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: other things are more subtle. An entry level engineer can 605 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: expect to work sixty plus hours a week and be 606 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,720 Speaker 1: on called seven three sixty five, and at certain times 607 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: of the year be required to work shift work. As 608 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: you move up in the ranks, the time demand becomes 609 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: greater and greater for supervisors and managers. Right now, as 610 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: a single young woman, I can do it, although, to 611 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: be honest, the lack of a work life balance even 612 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: now as an issue, but I'm not sure I'll be 613 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: able to if when I get a family. While in 614 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: college studying nuclear engineering, I was passionate about getting more 615 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: women interested in math and science and engineering. Now that 616 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: I'm actually out in the workplace, I'm not sure i'd 617 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: be able to recommend it. It's a very difficult, demanding field. 618 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: And it doesn't lend itself to a good work life balance. 619 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: A final point, I got into engineering because I loved 620 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: math and science, problem solving and the theory behind it all. Engineering, 621 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: at least where I work, is a very hands on 622 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: type of field that I wasn't expecting. You actually go 623 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: out into the field and get your hands dirty dealing 624 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: with massive mechanical equipment. It's a shock to go from 625 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: the classroom theory into the field in the workplace. So 626 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing your story, Katie, and thanks to 627 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: everybody who's written to us. Mom Stuff at discovery dot 628 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: com is where you can send us your letters. 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