Speaker 1: Growing up in the Maryland suburbs outside of d C,
Speaker 1: Broadway was just far enough away to seem like another world,
Speaker 1: a magical one. So it's no surprise that some of
Speaker 1: my fondest memories are of the train trips i'd take
Speaker 1: with my parents to go and see Broadway shows. First
Speaker 1: was the musical Barnum starring Jim Dale. Joined the third
Speaker 1: just like hi Wan when I was a killed. After that,
Speaker 1: I think it was Annie. I don't mean anything by you.
Speaker 1: Both were great shows, but the trip we took in
Speaker 1: February was next level. We were going to see a
Speaker 1: show that was nothing short of an event. I loved
Speaker 1: Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Cats even before I saw it,
Speaker 1: and not in an ironic way. I played that original
Speaker 1: Broadway cast album until the vinyl almost melted. The song
Speaker 1: memory instantly unforgettable junior Face. My friend Mario and I
Speaker 1: would listen to it over and over on the stereo
Speaker 1: in his family room, and when Betty Buckley would hit
Speaker 1: that big note, I would grab the nearest sofa pello
Speaker 1: and bite it. Look, I was only thirteen years old.
Speaker 1: I honestly didn't know how else to channel the urges
Speaker 1: it tapped into. When I finally saw the show as
Speaker 1: a much more sophisticated four year old, my expectations were
Speaker 1: actually exceeded. That's set, the costumes, and that dancing. My
Speaker 1: parents and I sat in the very last row of
Speaker 1: the balcony, so the cats who came into the audience
Speaker 1: didn't come anywhere near us. But so what, It was
Speaker 1: still impossibly exciting. Afterwards, I went back home to Bethesda,
Speaker 1: Maryland with an official cat's sweatshirt, the one with the
Speaker 1: two yellow cat eyes on the back. I wore that
Speaker 1: sweatshirt to Pile Junior High almost every day for the
Speaker 1: rest of the winter. I ended up writing a letter
Speaker 1: to every member of the cast twice. I only received
Speaker 1: a couple of responses, but I was absolutely thrilled that
Speaker 1: one of them was from Mr Mustaphel's himself, Tim Scott,
Speaker 1: this dancer. When he did twenty four consecutive weets, he
Speaker 1: took my breath away. I didn't know that those wild
Speaker 1: spins were called forwetas, or even how spell the word.
Speaker 1: All I knew was that I was watching someone defy
Speaker 1: the laws of physics. Tim Scott's letter to me was short,
Speaker 1: but gracious. I was just so happy that he answered.
Speaker 1: But back then I had no idea of the offstage
Speaker 1: drama that was quietly building for Tim Scott and for
Speaker 1: many in the cast of Cats, for the Broadway community
Speaker 1: at large, and especially for the gay men who were
Speaker 1: in essential part of that community. AIDS was discovered first
Speaker 1: and young homosexual meant there is no cure and it
Speaker 1: is often fatal. By the fall of two when Cats
Speaker 1: opened on Broadway, AIDS had become a health crisis. By
Speaker 1: the end of the decade, it would claim the lives
Speaker 1: of over one hundred thousand Americans and would devastate the
Speaker 1: arts world. In the original cast of Cats alone, AIDS
Speaker 1: would cut down four dancers at the very top of
Speaker 1: their careers and in peak physical form. The tragedy of
Speaker 1: the whole thing, isn't it. That's a microcosm of the
Speaker 1: big picture. You've got to show that's about youth and vitality,
Speaker 1: and these are people who were taken down in the
Speaker 1: prime of their lives. This is the story of one
Speaker 1: of those dancers. It's a story of talent, beautiful, beautiful dancer.
Speaker 1: You can't imagine all of the tricks that he did.
Speaker 1: It was just absolutely incredible. It's a story of dreams
Speaker 1: I'll never begin, he said, you know what, I just
Speaker 1: want to be the best dance so I could possibly
Speaker 1: be and be on Broadway. Most of all, it's a
Speaker 1: love story. One night he turned and looked at me,
Speaker 1: and I looked back at him, and there was this long,
Speaker 1: meaningful moment. So I like to say that I fell
Speaker 1: in love with him when he was dressed as a
Speaker 1: cat from CBS Sunday Morning and I heart I'm Morocca
Speaker 1: and this is mobituaries, this moment. Timothy Scott, February eight,
Speaker 1: death of a dancer. My parents splurged and they brought
Speaker 1: me the five dollar souvenir programs and inside there's an
Speaker 1: autograph best Ken page. Oh my goodness, oh wonderful look
Speaker 1: at that. And I had to thank you for stopping
Speaker 1: on Seventh Avenue when it was really cold in February
Speaker 1: signing my souvenir program. Uh, we'll see, we didn't know it,
Speaker 1: but this day was gonna happen. I'm talking to well,
Speaker 1: really gushing over actor Ken Paige, who played the role
Speaker 1: of Old Deuteronomy in the original Broadway cast of Cats.
Speaker 1: When I saw Ken Paige and Cats, I was already
Speaker 1: a fan of his from the musical review ain't misbehaving.
Speaker 1: I'm going right now and write you might know Ken
Speaker 1: Paige best as the voice of the evil Oogie Boogie
Speaker 1: in Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's good book
Speaker 1: and attention now, bogie Man. But I'm talking to Ken
Speaker 1: today because of his connection to CATS co star Timothy Scott.
Speaker 1: You see, Cats wasn't the first time Ken and Tim
Speaker 1: worked together. They both began their professional stage careers as
Speaker 1: teenagers at the legendary St. Louis Municipal Opera Theater commonly
Speaker 1: known as the Muni, the oldest and largest outdoor musical
Speaker 1: theater in North America. He was in the dance ensemble
Speaker 1: and I was in the singing ensemble. He danced. I
Speaker 1: don't say I moved well, and I will never be
Speaker 1: At this day. There's a beautiful fountain between a rehearsal
Speaker 1: space and the backstage, and he was sitting up at
Speaker 1: the top and the water was sort of running through
Speaker 1: his feet and everything. And he said to me, he said,
Speaker 1: you know what, I just want to be the best
Speaker 1: dance so I could possibly be and be on Broadway.
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, me too. I want to be
Speaker 1: I want to be on Broadway too. You know, I
Speaker 1: was eighteen, so he must have been probably seventeen. As
Speaker 1: it turns out, their dreams of Broadway were not far fetched.
Speaker 1: Timothy Scott Schnell was born on September in Morton Grove, Illinois,
Speaker 1: a suburb of Chicago. Tim had something of a late start.
Speaker 1: A lot of dancers start training as early as four
Speaker 1: years old. Tim Scott didn't start taking dance lessons until
Speaker 1: he was a teenager, but it was clear from the
Speaker 1: get go he was un natural. He went straight from
Speaker 1: high school into show business. After the Muni, Tim Scot
Speaker 1: moved to New York City. Success came quickly. Broadway impressario
Speaker 1: Michael Bennett cast Tim in the first international company of
Speaker 1: a chorus line. Soon after, Tim was touring nationally in
Speaker 1: Bob Fosse's smash musical review Dance Him. We Got Spent
Speaker 1: Sleeps joke Scott Whils another incredible bonny gigs, but I
Speaker 1: am not allowed to mention on television. Tim was what's
Speaker 1: called an ensemble dancer. Back then, they were called gypsies,
Speaker 1: which actress Bonnie Franklin defined at the nine Tony Awards
Speaker 1: maybe I'd better explain to the audience at home and
Speaker 1: that the term gypsy lovingly applies to all danswers in
Speaker 1: the Broadway theater. They were called that because they traveled
Speaker 1: from company to company, from chorus line to chorus line,
Speaker 1: constantly auditioning for their next gig. This was and is
Speaker 1: the life of a dance sir. In Tim toured with
Speaker 1: the popular comedy Mine duo Shields and Yarnell. Yes, and
Speaker 1: this was the time when mimes could be superstars. To
Speaker 1: be a Pepper Pepper all you gotta do. The next year,
Speaker 1: Tim danced on a ceiling in a big Dr Pepper commercial. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then in came the casting call for Cats. I think
Speaker 1: we all had a sense that it was a really
Speaker 1: big deal. We didn't really know what the show is about,
Speaker 1: you know. I asked my agent, so, what can you
Speaker 1: tell me what it's about? And she goes, Cats, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, but what's the store And she goes,
Speaker 1: it's about cats. That, my friends, is the one and
Speaker 1: only Betty Buckley, the woman who caused me to bite
Speaker 1: that sofa pillow all those years ago when she hit
Speaker 1: that note, Oh I love that. When I first met
Speaker 1: you and you told me that story. I was so
Speaker 1: touched by that. That's amazing to me, so great. She
Speaker 1: was called in for the pivotal role of Grizabella the
Speaker 1: Bedraggle to pass her prime glamour cat. And so I
Speaker 1: went into audition and they told my agent that they
Speaker 1: weren't going to consider me because I radiated health and
Speaker 1: well being and they wanted someone who radiated death and dying.
Speaker 1: Lucky for us, she got the role, joining a cast
Speaker 1: that included Ken Paige and Tim Scott. So the first
Speaker 1: day of Cats, I walked up to him and I said, well,
Speaker 1: I guess you're officially one of the great best dances
Speaker 1: on Broadway, and particularly in that role. That was a very,
Speaker 1: very coveted role. Tim was cast as Mr Mustapheles, the
Speaker 1: conjuring cat. Here he is singing, we can die like
Speaker 1: a flying tuck me. In a show that was focused
Speaker 1: on spectacular musical numbers and not a whole lot on plot,
Speaker 1: Tim's role was one of the most challenging. It required
Speaker 1: a dancer with extraordinary technique, but Tim had something more
Speaker 1: than that. He had presence. He had these amazing eyes.
Speaker 1: His eyes were like blue beans. He also had this
Speaker 1: sort of mysterious nous about him and he was always there.
Speaker 1: The first time I saw him dance, I found it
Speaker 1: un Kenny that I had this rush of joy through
Speaker 1: my body that was completely spontaneous and it was not
Speaker 1: an intellectual experience of like, oh that guy dances really well.
Speaker 1: It was like this kind of breathless, exquisite joy watching
Speaker 1: him and I was like, who's that kid, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, why is he able to do that? Okay?
Speaker 1: Sidebar Cats is more than anything a dance show for
Speaker 1: the actors who had limited background and dance, like Betty
Speaker 1: Buckley and Ken Paige. Rehearsing for Cats was like Marine
Speaker 1: Corps basic training. The Winter Garden Theater was there Paris Island.
Speaker 1: There were five of us that were like normal people,
Speaker 1: you know, and the rest of them were like amazing.
Speaker 1: Betty and I both had to do the full on
Speaker 1: dance class, you know, and you had to do it.
Speaker 1: I had to do cart wheels across the floor in
Speaker 1: front of this incredible company of dancers and Cats and
Speaker 1: Campaige and I just clung to each other and I
Speaker 1: was like I'm going to die and he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm right with you. And it was like so humiliating
Speaker 1: old Deuteronomy and Chris Sabella are not cartwheeling cats we
Speaker 1: should be clear about. No, that's we should be clear. Well,
Speaker 1: you have no idea now. When the show finally opened
Speaker 1: in October two, it didn't get great reviews, But so
Speaker 1: what reviews are about? The here and now cats? As
Speaker 1: the commercial tagline pointed out, was now and forever. Catch
Speaker 1: now and forever At the Window Garden Theater, it was
Speaker 1: the show to see and be seen at Andy Warhol,
Speaker 1: Diana Ross, Frank Zappa, Carrie Grant, Mary Tyler Moore. Those
Speaker 1: are just a few of the big names who showed up.
Speaker 1: Then it swept the Tony's Betty Buckley one for Best
Speaker 1: Featured Actress in a Musical. I want to thank my
Speaker 1: mom and my dad and my brother no him and
Speaker 1: my other brothers and that brother. She thanked Norman, even
Speaker 1: though he wasn't in the show, his life was about
Speaker 1: to be changed by it. Oh. I was very much
Speaker 1: a country boy. I probably still am at heart, you know,
Speaker 1: my most essential self. It was an exciting time for me,
Speaker 1: but I was also a little lost amongst all the hubbub.
Speaker 1: On the other side of the break, Grizabella's younger brother
Speaker 1: and Mr Mustaphile's meat. What was it like having your
Speaker 1: little brother backstage with you at Cats? Well? At first,
Speaker 1: I mean I was really happy that he was there.
Speaker 1: And my brother and I, you know, have been at
Speaker 1: points in our lives very close. That's Betty Buckley talking
Speaker 1: about her little brother, Norman Buckley back in the early
Speaker 1: eighties when she was starring in Cats. Norman was new
Speaker 1: to New York. Sister and brother may have been close,
Speaker 1: but Betty didn't know that Norman was gay. We grew
Speaker 1: up in Texas with a military father, and you know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't something that was certainly discussed or we even considered.
Speaker 1: So he was staying at my apartment when he first
Speaker 1: came to New York and was coming out as a
Speaker 1: gay person, and I didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 1: So he left some of his journals out for me
Speaker 1: to see, and I read some entries and was shocked,
Speaker 1: was like, what is this? And so there was some
Speaker 1: big confrontations between he and I, and I can freely
Speaker 1: admit that I don't think I handled those very well.
Speaker 1: Norman describes himself as a country boy back then. What
Speaker 1: was he like? Was he innocent? Was he very boyish,
Speaker 1: totally innocent. Oh my god, that's why I was scared,
Speaker 1: wet behind the ears, delicate artistic boy. Yeah, I knew
Speaker 1: he was twenty seven, but still to me, he was
Speaker 1: always my little baby brother who was a vulnerable, sweet kid. Today,
Speaker 1: Norman Buckley is an accomplished TV director, having worked on
Speaker 1: over forty shows, including The o C, Gossip Girl, and
Speaker 1: Pretty Little Liars? Does It Not Really? But the Sluttier
Speaker 1: than Better? Back then, Norman was working as an editing
Speaker 1: room assistant on the movie Easy Money, just across the
Speaker 1: street from the Winter Garden Theater. I would generally, uh,
Speaker 1: just visit with her earn her dressing room until she
Speaker 1: had to go back on stage. Norman's favorite place in
Speaker 1: the theater was the cat walk high above the stage.
Speaker 1: That's where he'd watched the end of the show when
Speaker 1: Grizabella ascends on a giant tire to the heavy side
Speaker 1: layer the equivalent of cat Heaven, at least I think
Speaker 1: that's what it is. That's actually the first time I
Speaker 1: had an encounter with Tim Scott, because that was where
Speaker 1: he would make his big entrance for his big number
Speaker 1: as Mr Mustapoles. He was lowered on a rope from
Speaker 1: that same cat walk. For a long period of time,
Speaker 1: he didn't even register that I was up there with him.
Speaker 1: And then one night he turned and looked at me,
Speaker 1: and I looked back at him, and there was this long,
Speaker 1: meaningful moment. Tim may have been dressed as a cat
Speaker 1: with lots of cat makeup, but Norman was spellbound. He
Speaker 1: had very intense eyes. He was kind of otherworldly looking.
Speaker 1: I was much taller than him. Norman was six one,
Speaker 1: Tim seven. We looked a little bit like Mutt and Jeff.
Speaker 1: Some days later, after the show, Norman and his sister
Speaker 1: Betty shared a big Checker taxi cab with Tim. During
Speaker 1: the ride, Norman and Tim experienced another wordless moment of connection.
Speaker 1: This was a much more profound encounter. At that moment,
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, this person is going to be significant
Speaker 1: in your life. You really thought that there very much,
Speaker 1: so I can remember it as though it happened yesterday.
Speaker 1: I looked at him, I took him in, he was
Speaker 1: taking me in, and I thought, this is it. The
Speaker 1: very next night, Norman mustered his courage and stood in
Speaker 1: the doorway of Tim's dressing room at intermission, and I said,
Speaker 1: do you want to have dinner, and he said, yes,
Speaker 1: it was like great, and that was it? Is that
Speaker 1: the kind of thing you could have imagined your self
Speaker 1: doing even six months before. I can't even imagine myself
Speaker 1: doing that now. So it's I think I met him
Speaker 1: the next night on the corner. I still didn't want
Speaker 1: to tell my sister that I was seeing somebody in
Speaker 1: her show. Norman says. The chemistry was instant. Was he funny,
Speaker 1: very funny. He had a great sense of humor. I
Speaker 1: laughed a lot his jokes. It's got to be at
Speaker 1: least one laugher in the relationship. But Betty was concerned.
Speaker 1: In New York City, the whole gay scene in the nighties,
Speaker 1: you know, was wild, and I was terrified for him.
Speaker 1: I was just basically scared, and we didn't know what
Speaker 1: AIDS was quite yet. In fact, when AIDS was first reported,
Speaker 1: it wasn't even called AIDS. A mystery disease known as
Speaker 1: the gay plague has become an epidemic unprecedented in the
Speaker 1: history of American medicine. The lifestyle of some male homosexuals
Speaker 1: has triggered an epidemic of a rare form of cancer.
Speaker 1: A mysterious, newly discovered disease, which affects mostly homosexual men.
Speaker 1: When did the disease become real to you? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: it's that trajectory that you see so wonderfully portrayed in
Speaker 1: Long Time Companion. It really was the thing where people
Speaker 1: started whispering, and things started popping up from the newspaper,
Speaker 1: and people started making calls saying, did you hear about
Speaker 1: this thing that's going around? That's ken page again. He's
Speaker 1: referring to the nine movie Longtime Companion, directed by Norman Renee,
Speaker 1: who ultimately died from AIDS himself. The film opens on
Speaker 1: the morning of July three. The characters wake up to
Speaker 1: the ominous New York Times article by Lawrence k Altman,
Speaker 1: the first in a mainstream publication to make reference to
Speaker 1: the disease that would be called AIDS. They immediately begin
Speaker 1: phoning each other, Hello, have you seen the paper? Oh?
Speaker 1: I was just shipped to help. Have you got it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: the page, you can't miss it. Did you see the paper?
Speaker 1: I missed that? Oh well, just listen. Rare cants are
Speaker 1: seen in forty one Homosexuals. By the time Cats was
Speaker 1: in rehearsal, concern was burgeoning into a sense of alarm.
Speaker 1: Then you started to hear did you know so? And
Speaker 1: so I heard they're not well, they have they have
Speaker 1: that gay cancer. Right. There was fear everywhere. Ken remembers
Speaker 1: when early in the epidemic he was working in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles and went to pick up a friend at the airport.
Speaker 1: Ken was stunned by the friend's appearance. He was a
Speaker 1: good twenty five pounds lighter and blessing. He was saying, well,
Speaker 1: I got this rash. I want to get in the
Speaker 1: sun so I can get rid of this rash. And
Speaker 1: I feel bad about it to this very day, thinking
Speaker 1: to myself, I don't know do I want him staying
Speaker 1: in my house. He came to me for solace and comfort,
Speaker 1: but I was afraid of what that all meant. And
Speaker 1: I can honestly say that I don't think I handled
Speaker 1: it as well as I could have. But it was
Speaker 1: typical for what everybody was experiencing. Even after the generic
Speaker 1: sounding acronym AIDS Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome was coined in September
Speaker 1: of two, it felt like the full force of blame
Speaker 1: for the disease was being placed squarely on gay men.
Speaker 1: Of course, being gay was already stigmatized. The American Psychiatric
Speaker 1: Association had only removed homosexuality from its list of mental
Speaker 1: disorders in ninety three, and in two only one state, Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: had a law on the books making it illegal to
Speaker 1: fire people simply for being gay. Coming out of the closet,
Speaker 1: never easy to begin with, was even scarier when it
Speaker 1: seemed to carry a death sentence for me. Just realizing
Speaker 1: I was gay at the time. I was twelve years
Speaker 1: old when AIDS was first being widely reported, wasn't just fraught,
Speaker 1: it was frightening. I vividly remember a day in eighth
Speaker 1: grade when a teacher finally talked to us about AIDS.
Speaker 1: The girl who sat in front of me turned around,
Speaker 1: looked straight at me, and said, that's what you're going
Speaker 1: to get. Many years later she reached out to me
Speaker 1: on social media to apologize. Of course I forgave her.
Speaker 1: It was junior high. We were all incredibly mean to
Speaker 1: each other. Once Norman and Tim were officially a couple,
Speaker 1: Betty gave her blessing, so I was really relieved in
Speaker 1: so many ways that Tim was his first great love.
Speaker 1: When she did find out about the relationship with Tim,
Speaker 1: she was very approving, I told her, and she hesitated
Speaker 1: for a moment, thought about it, and she said, well,
Speaker 1: you picked the right one. She said, I can see this.
Speaker 1: I loved Tim, and of course I love my brother,
Speaker 1: so ultimately I was like, well, it's not money of
Speaker 1: my business, and I have to say I love them both.
Speaker 1: So there we go. But while Betty may have been relieved,
Speaker 1: Tim Scott him self was increasingly worried. Dates was always
Speaker 1: a specter that kind of hung over our relationship. Tim
Speaker 1: had actually been involved with someone who was one of
Speaker 1: the really early AIDS cases that young man was dying.
Speaker 1: During previews of Cats, Tim would go from the theater
Speaker 1: sometimes to his hospital room and sit with him. Now
Speaker 1: bear in mind, in AIDS test was still three years
Speaker 1: away and any life saving treatment was fourteen years away.
Speaker 1: We had a hair dresser named Paul Lopez who worked
Speaker 1: on eight Misbehavior, and he got sick and he wasn't
Speaker 1: feeling well, like on Wednesday, Mattnee. He wasn't doing well.
Speaker 1: Thursday he came in. They said, you really aren't well.
Speaker 1: You should go home. Friday he went into the hospital Saturday,
Speaker 1: Sunday he was unconscious by Monday, and he died on Tuesday,
Speaker 1: and that was from Wednesday. Not even a week later,
Speaker 1: he was gone. The federal government wasn't slow to act.
Speaker 1: It didn't act at all. On October fifteenth, two, just
Speaker 1: a week after CATS opened, President Reagan's Press Secretary Larry Speaks,
Speaker 1: was asked about AIDS by a reporter named Lester King, Solving.
Speaker 1: Here's how that exchange went. Have any reactions with the
Speaker 1: announce from the Center for Disease Control Atlanta that a
Speaker 1: d S is now an epidemic in six six hundred cases.
Speaker 1: It's known as gay play. Yes, I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: pretty serious thing that one and every three people again
Speaker 1: this have died. And I wondered if the president where
Speaker 1: I don't have it? Are you do you? You don't
Speaker 1: have it? Well, I'm relieved to hear that you don't
Speaker 1: answer my question. How do you know? That's right? Speaks
Speaker 1: and much of the White House Press Corps, we're treating
Speaker 1: AIDS and its victims as a joke. President Reagan himself
Speaker 1: didn't utter the word AIDS, and then only in response
Speaker 1: to a reporter's question, until the fall of over four
Speaker 1: years into the devastation. When Tim's contract with CATS ended
Speaker 1: that same year, the couple decided to move west and
Speaker 1: begin a new chapter in Los Angeles. Not long after
Speaker 1: their move, they drove up to Malibu. We went out
Speaker 1: to Zuma Beach one day and he said to me,
Speaker 1: very tentatively, I really can't imagine my life without you,
Speaker 1: and I want to stay with you for the rest
Speaker 1: of my life. And I responded, I want to stay
Speaker 1: with you for the rest of my life. It was
Speaker 1: this really solemn moment. I like to think of it
Speaker 1: as a vows. I considered myself married to Tim. There
Speaker 1: was no legal way to do that at the time,
Speaker 1: and it was a commitment. And I'm so happy that
Speaker 1: had happened before he became ill, because there was no
Speaker 1: question but that I would see him through it. And
Speaker 1: I think he felt that on the other side of
Speaker 1: the break. Tim Scott's last show, the Ultimate tribute to
Speaker 1: the dancer What I did doing what we Love. That's
Speaker 1: her anthem, what I did for love. I'm visiting tonight
Speaker 1: at the home of Tim Scott. I'll knock on the
Speaker 1: door now, Hello, Hello, would you like to come in?
Speaker 1: I would like to come in. I'm watching home video
Speaker 1: of Norman Buckley and Tim Scott. It's sometime in late
Speaker 1: or early and they're joking around giving a tour of
Speaker 1: their so me two bedroom apartment in West Hollywood. Here
Speaker 1: is Kennedy. Here we meet their cat, who just happens
Speaker 1: to be named more. Look at the cat's eyes. Really
Speaker 1: looked like the eyes on the back of my cat sweatshirt.
Speaker 1: Tim and Norman seem happy. Why shouldn't they be. They're young,
Speaker 1: thirty years old. They make each other laugh, and career wise,
Speaker 1: things are going well for both of them. At the time,
Speaker 1: Norman was working as an assistant editor on a horror
Speaker 1: movie called Trick or Treat starring Gene Simmons of Kiss
Speaker 1: He's a rook and Roll and during this period, Tim
Speaker 1: scored two film gigs. He was cast in the four
Speaker 1: D spectacular Captain Eo, shown exclusively at Disney Parks. This was,
Speaker 1: at the time the most expensive film per minute ever made.
Speaker 1: Tim is part of the enormous On so Bold, dancing
Speaker 1: behind Michael Jackson. Tim was also cast in the movie
Speaker 1: version of the musical A chorus Line. It's a bit part.
Speaker 1: He plays boy with headband. Seriously, that's his screen credit.
Speaker 1: But so what? It was a job on a movie
Speaker 1: up We even get to hear him sing briefly, God,
Speaker 1: I really blew it, I really blew it. What I
Speaker 1: love about it is that it's very brief, but it
Speaker 1: very much captures Tim's spirit. It's a short, lovely cameo.
Speaker 1: And then, ten years after he toured internationally in the
Speaker 1: stage production of A chorus Line, Tim was cast in
Speaker 1: a European tour of the show. Okay, since it's come
Speaker 1: up a couple of times, let's talk for a moment
Speaker 1: about a chorus line. This musical is the ultimate tribute
Speaker 1: to dancers just like Tim, not stars, not household names,
Speaker 1: dancers struggling and auditioning for roles in the chorus, not
Speaker 1: doing it with the expectation of becoming rich and famous,
Speaker 1: but doing it for the love of dancing. Tim was
Speaker 1: cast in the role of Mike, a dancer who's up
Speaker 1: for any challenge. Perfect for Tim. I mean to have
Speaker 1: Tim's technique, his splits and jumps and turns and all
Speaker 1: of that quite spectacular. This is Broadway legend. Bi orch Lee,
Speaker 1: you are in the original King and I Yes, How
Speaker 1: old were you? I was five, by the way, I
Speaker 1: was fired at eight because I outgrew my costume. By
Speaker 1: York went on to play Connie in the original Broadway
Speaker 1: cast of A chorus Line. A good ten, cak what ten?
Speaker 1: That's the story of my life. A chorus Line was
Speaker 1: conceived by the legendary dancer turned director Michael Bennett, who
Speaker 1: would himself die from aids by orc. The keeper of
Speaker 1: the chorus Line Flame has been directing revivals and road
Speaker 1: companies of the show for decades. It is a tribute
Speaker 1: to the dancer. The audience comes in, and what Michael
Speaker 1: wanted to convey was that they were peeking in on
Speaker 1: an audition, because no one has ever seen an audition
Speaker 1: outside of the people who are involved. One song that
Speaker 1: Tim Scott sang many times as part of the ensemble
Speaker 1: of A chorus Line is what I Did for Love.
Speaker 1: It's a song about the short and sometimes painful careers
Speaker 1: of dancers. It pops up towards the end of the
Speaker 1: show after one of the dancers has had a serious
Speaker 1: accident and has to drop out of the industry altogether.
Speaker 1: The director asks the remaining dancers what they would say
Speaker 1: if they learned that they could never dance again. The
Speaker 1: character of Morales starts the song off kiss Today You
Speaker 1: could love The suitetness and the sorrow. Wish me luck
Speaker 1: the same to you. But I can't regret what I
Speaker 1: did for love. What I did for love the message
Speaker 1: of the song. Whatever life throws at these artists, they'll
Speaker 1: face the future with the same bravery and undefeated optimism
Speaker 1: with which they pursued their careers, however short they may be.
Speaker 1: It's about survival, but also doing what we love. That's
Speaker 1: her anthem, what I did for love. To do it
Speaker 1: because you love it. Whether you're dancing, singing, acting, or
Speaker 1: whatever you do, we do it because we love it.
Speaker 1: I think there's something really special about Tim Scott's last
Speaker 1: show being the show that pays tribute to the dancer. Yeah.
Speaker 1: A few weeks into their European tour, by Orc noticed
Speaker 1: that Tim Scott was losing stamina. At the time, I
Speaker 1: did not know that he was ill. I think we
Speaker 1: were in Surich and he wasn't feeling well. He had
Speaker 1: no energy at all. Tim was having holistic medications mailed
Speaker 1: to him on the road. He'd tried crystals, meditation and
Speaker 1: other alternative remedies. They weren't working. He eventually left the tour,
Speaker 1: left the tour and he called me and he said,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to do this anymore. He said,
Speaker 1: I'm too old. I don't want to be the dancer anymore.
Speaker 1: I want to come home. Tim was still only thirty one.
Speaker 1: He went to the doctor and they did an indoscap.
Speaker 1: He had a very light case of pneumacist this pneumonia,
Speaker 1: which was one of the ways that they diagnosed aids
Speaker 1: at the time. And I said, okay, well, we'll take
Speaker 1: it a step at a time. But we essentially knew
Speaker 1: that it was a death sentence. The question was just
Speaker 1: how long we hoped for some type of miraculous cure.
Speaker 1: We hoped something would happen, As with so many terminal conditions,
Speaker 1: though Tim's illness didn't move in a straight line. By December,
Speaker 1: he was experiencing an upswing. On Christmas Eve that year,
Speaker 1: he and Norman, underneath their Christmas tree in their West
Speaker 1: Hollywood apartment, take turns opening Presence. What is it? It's
Speaker 1: a book from from Norma, the Great Towns of California,
Speaker 1: Oh great, Oh, the best American short Stories more Slacks.
Speaker 1: I don't want to sentimentalize it, and I don't want
Speaker 1: to romanticize it, but it was a wonderful period of time.
Speaker 1: It sounds counterintuitive to say that, but it was a
Speaker 1: wonderful period of time because we were so deeply connected
Speaker 1: at that point. The next morning they celebrate at a
Speaker 1: friend's home. Tim teaches the friends three daughters a dance. Okay, there,
Speaker 1: but I have to say, the girls don't seem all
Speaker 1: that focused, and I kind of want to jump into
Speaker 1: the video tape and tell them you're getting a free
Speaker 1: dance lesson from the original broad White. Mr Mustapholes. Pull
Speaker 1: it together. Okay, I'm back now. Not long after that Christmas,
Speaker 1: Tim and Norman took a road trip. We drove across
Speaker 1: the Southwest and we went to the Grand Canyon and
Speaker 1: he went out on this rock. It was very precarious.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, please, don't go out so far.
Speaker 1: I don't go out so far. And he went out
Speaker 1: on the end of this rock and did this pirouet.
Speaker 1: But after returning to Los Angeles and especially virulent case
Speaker 1: of pneumonia sent Tim to the hospital. It was at
Speaker 1: that point I said, we have to tell your parents,
Speaker 1: we have to let them know. And his mother immediately
Speaker 1: flew out. She was this wonderful Italian woman who was
Speaker 1: a wonderful cook. And took care of us. Tim's parents,
Speaker 1: Richard and Rosemary, stayed at a motel nearby. Tim's father,
Speaker 1: Richard Schnell, was still working as a technical writer for Motorola.
Speaker 1: Rosemary Schnell was a homemaker. Tim was their only child.
Speaker 1: When he gave his parents the news about his diagnosis.
Speaker 1: Do you think that his mother suspected in any way
Speaker 1: they knew something was up? They couldn't have been better
Speaker 1: though in their response. They were lovely people, and I
Speaker 1: feel enormous gratitude to them. They accepted me, they loved me.
Speaker 1: They remained close to me for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1: So many people during that period of time did not
Speaker 1: have the support of their parents. For many people in
Speaker 1: the theater, it was their chosen family, not their biological one,
Speaker 1: that rallied around them. The community had to help themselves.
Speaker 1: Women like bi orch Lee, who had grown up performing
Speaker 1: with so many gay men who were like brothers to her,
Speaker 1: played a special role. He became angels when we started
Speaker 1: hearing about all of these people. We started taking care
Speaker 1: of them, just being with them to go to get
Speaker 1: their medicine or to feed them, helping them. They because
Speaker 1: people were afraid these were our friends, and so we
Speaker 1: didn't have any fear. My best friends all died of AIDS.
Speaker 1: Most of my closest male friends that I met doing
Speaker 1: Guys and Dolls and Pearly and the Whiz and so forth,
Speaker 1: they all died. They all died. This is can Paige again.
Speaker 1: It was devastating, and many many other friends who to
Speaker 1: bury degree. Some went home just disappeared. Others had no
Speaker 1: home to go to because their families rejected them. Some
Speaker 1: of us as friend group at that time, which is
Speaker 1: something else I'll always treasure those of us who gathered
Speaker 1: and rallied and supported each other, and if someone fell ill,
Speaker 1: you just gathered around them and did whatever you needed
Speaker 1: to do, including burial. Burial became a terrible challenge for
Speaker 1: the bereaved. Early on in Manhattan, only one funeral home,
Speaker 1: Reddens on Fourteenth Street, was willing to accept the remains
Speaker 1: of the victims of AIDS. Now, it's hard to know
Speaker 1: how many people died during the early years of the epidemic. Families, churches,
Speaker 1: hospitals often lied about the cause of death. That's how
Speaker 1: deep the stigma was. And as David France, author of
Speaker 1: How to Survive a Plague, has reported some gay men,
Speaker 1: when they detected a lesion or another symptom of infection,
Speaker 1: would kill themselves. Many of the dead ended up in
Speaker 1: unmarked Potter's fields like Heart Island off the Bronx, the
Speaker 1: final resting place for the ostracized and abandoned. When Tim
Speaker 1: Scott wasn't in the hospital for an infection, he was
Speaker 1: at home. Betty Buckley was just down the street. I
Speaker 1: don't remember that. I that I was as supportive as
Speaker 1: I aspired to be. There wasn't a lot I could do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember finding this puppy, this beautiful little ducks and
Speaker 1: puppy that I thought would be great to give to Tim.
Speaker 1: I gave him this puppy and he didn't want a puppy,
Speaker 1: so I was I thought I was doing something to
Speaker 1: make him feel, you know, really comforted and engaged. But
Speaker 1: it was a wrong choice. I don't know. He had
Speaker 1: lost a lot of weight, but I didn't see that.
Speaker 1: I didn't see that at the time. While I was
Speaker 1: there with him, he was just the person I loved,
Speaker 1: and I never really took in the fact that he
Speaker 1: was vanishing right before my eyes. Finally, on Halloween, while
Speaker 1: Norman was driving him home from his latest hospital visit
Speaker 1: for pneumonia. Tim made an announcement and he said, that's it.
Speaker 1: I don't want to go back to the hospital again.
Speaker 1: Tim would spend his remaining days at home. I've always
Speaker 1: felt that there was a beautiful symmetry to the relationship
Speaker 1: that Tim and I had. We were together for five years,
Speaker 1: and during the first two and a half years, I
Speaker 1: would say that he was the one who was taking
Speaker 1: care of me. He was the one that was helping
Speaker 1: me come into my own and during the second too
Speaker 1: and a half years of our relationship, I became the caretaker.
Speaker 1: During those weeks, Norman rarely left Tim side. If you're
Speaker 1: going to go through some major life trial, you would
Speaker 1: want to go through with my brother, Norman. It was
Speaker 1: incredibly admirable and inspiring watching him be there for this
Speaker 1: person that he loved so much. In the middle of
Speaker 1: one night, Norman woke up to find Tim sitting bolt
Speaker 1: upright in bed, wide awake, staring out into the distance,
Speaker 1: and I said, what's going on. He said nothing. He said,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to measure where we are relative to
Speaker 1: that space out there. And I said, well, what space
Speaker 1: you're talking about? And he said, Oh, it's not anything
Speaker 1: I could explain to you. It's just a lot more
Speaker 1: than we know. And I said, well, I'm sure that
Speaker 1: that's so. And he said, so are you ready for
Speaker 1: your big test? And I said, well, I really know
Speaker 1: what you mean by that, but I guess I'm as
Speaker 1: ready as I ever will be. And he said, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll go back to sleep, and he patted me on
Speaker 1: the arm and I went back to sleep. And then
Speaker 1: when I woke up, he was in a coma and
Speaker 1: he never woke up again. That was the last time
Speaker 1: I ever spoke to him. As difficult as that period
Speaker 1: of time was, it was also extraordinary. I felt deeply
Speaker 1: loved by him, and I deeply loved him. And it's funny,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't think about these things for a
Speaker 1: long time, and then you talk about them and suddenly
Speaker 1: the emotion comes back over you again. What do you
Speaker 1: think he meant by are you ready for your big test?
Speaker 1: Are you ready to be on your own? Are you
Speaker 1: ready to except that you have to let go of me?
Speaker 1: Who knows? You know? I mean he was also on
Speaker 1: pain killers. You know, there's there's all kinds of possibilities
Speaker 1: that maybe he was just hallucinating, but at least he
Speaker 1: was hallucinating in a particularly profound poetic way. Tim's parents
Speaker 1: and friends gathered and took visuals as he remained comatose
Speaker 1: for about ten days. It was Norman who was with
Speaker 1: Tim during his final moments. He took his last breath,
Speaker 1: I could see like his eyes, his eyes were very blue,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, there was just this
Speaker 1: point of life, that swimp. It was almost like I
Speaker 1: saw the life force leave him. And he died at
Speaker 1: six thirty in the morning on February Is it for
Speaker 1: gay men your age particularly difficult that a lot of
Speaker 1: your contemporaries are no longer with us? Died many years ago? Kin,
Speaker 1: Paige and I were sitting together sometime years after Timid died,
Speaker 1: and I said, Uh, where's all the game in my age?
Speaker 1: And Kin said to me, Norman, they all died. Were
Speaker 1: a small number of survivors, the people our age, they're gone.
Speaker 1: It really hit me like a ton of bricks when
Speaker 1: he said that four from the original Broadway cast of
Speaker 1: Cats died from aids. Tim was thirty two, Stephen Guelfer
Speaker 1: was thirty nine. Read Jones, who was wonderful in the
Speaker 1: role of Skimble, Shanks was thirty five and Renee Clemente
Speaker 1: was thirty eight. As a successful TV director of popular
Speaker 1: shows featuring picture perfect teens and people in their twenties,
Speaker 1: Norman Buckley regularly works with young people who have little
Speaker 1: knowledge of the outbreak of the AIDS crisis. It's hard
Speaker 1: to explain to the younger generations just what a hollacious
Speaker 1: period of time that was in terms of the loss.
Speaker 1: I'm very aware that when I talk about my experiences,
Speaker 1: that people can only understand certain things when they've experienced
Speaker 1: those things themselves, and I have compassion for that, so
Speaker 1: I try to just be patient. Ken Paige has a
Speaker 1: tougher message for younger generations. What I want to say
Speaker 1: to them is, don't be stupid. It's not gone. There's
Speaker 1: just ways of handling it. Don't be cavalier. Don't take
Speaker 1: it for granted that you're well and you're gonna be well,
Speaker 1: and there's a pill and as this is that you
Speaker 1: can do anything you want. Don't be stupid. People paid
Speaker 1: for what you know. People paid for the cocktails and
Speaker 1: the pills and the things that you have that make
Speaker 1: you able to not worry about how you have sex.
Speaker 1: Someone paid literally their lives for that. Don't forget that.
Speaker 1: Never forget. When Cats returned to Broadway in ken Paige
Speaker 1: was in the audience on opening night, but for him
Speaker 1: it wasn't as much a revival as it was a remembrance.
Speaker 1: M I went to the opening night. Rosie O'Donnell was
Speaker 1: sitting there to night left, and I said, oh god,
Speaker 1: she goes. What's it like for you, she asked me.
Speaker 1: I said, I just see ghosts. I said, there's so
Speaker 1: many people up there with the makeup and all. It
Speaker 1: was pretty much the same. I said, I see Renee Clamente,
Speaker 1: I see Read Jones, I see Tim Scott, I see
Speaker 1: Stephen Guelfer right there in front of me on the stage.
Speaker 1: I was happy they were doing it, and I supported
Speaker 1: the revival and on no no, But it was also
Speaker 1: very difficult to sit and watch because you couldn't not
Speaker 1: go through the memory. Tim Scott was cremated. For his
Speaker 1: final resting place, Tim's parents and Norman decided on that
Speaker 1: very spot in Arizona where Tim had once pirouetted, and
Speaker 1: so we went out to the Grand Canyon, the five
Speaker 1: or six of us, and we went out on the
Speaker 1: end of that rock, which in retrospect is totally crazy,
Speaker 1: is uh. I look at pictures of it now and
Speaker 1: I think, oh my god, we can have all fallen
Speaker 1: off and joined him with this episode. I wanted to
Speaker 1: pay tribute to all those artists whose names didn't make
Speaker 1: headlines when they died, and so I wrote to Tom Viola,
Speaker 1: the head of Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. It's one
Speaker 1: of the oldest and largest groups raising money to support
Speaker 1: artists living with HIV AIDS. I wanted to know what
Speaker 1: he might have to say about Tim Scott. I didn't
Speaker 1: know Tim Scott well, he wrote, but with Cats being
Speaker 1: such a smash hit when it opened, and Tim being
Speaker 1: so blazing hot as the original Mr Mustopheles, he was
Speaker 1: one of the eighties most beautiful and popular Broadway dancers.
Speaker 1: Plus he was a very sweet guy. Tim's passing from
Speaker 1: AIDS was truly one of the deaths that galvanized to
Speaker 1: the community into the very early efforts to do something
Speaker 1: that culminated in the founding of Equity Fights AIDS and
Speaker 1: Broadway Cares. Will let Ken Page the wise old deuteronomy
Speaker 1: of Cats have the final word. Those of us who
Speaker 1: have survived aids this that the other even whatever, just age.
Speaker 1: If we don't tell the story, who does? Because you
Speaker 1: can only tell it if you were there. And if
Speaker 1: we are not responsible in telling it and passing it
Speaker 1: on when people ask like you have, then it dies
Speaker 1: literally and it's too valuable a story, whether it's in
Speaker 1: one person named Tim Scott or in any of the
Speaker 1: number of people we named from cats, or the greater
Speaker 1: number that we're in the theater New York at the time,
Speaker 1: or the even greater number that was the world population
Speaker 1: that we lost. We who have survived have to tell
Speaker 1: the story. I hope you've enjoyed seas and three of Mobituaries.
Speaker 1: If you were with us the first two seasons, thanks
Speaker 1: for sticking around. If you haven't heard our previous seasons,
Speaker 1: I hope you'll do a little delving. Either way, feel
Speaker 1: free to spread the word about mobids me. I ask
Speaker 1: you to please rate and review this podcast. You can
Speaker 1: also follow Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram, and you can
Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at morocco and check out Mobituaries.
Speaker 1: Great Lives Worth Reliving the New York Times best selling book,
Speaker 1: now available in paperback and audiobook. It includes plenty of
Speaker 1: stories not in the podcast. This episode of Mobituaries was
Speaker 1: produced by Francisco Robina. Our team of producers also includes
Speaker 1: Aaron Shrink, Wilco, Martinezcaceto, and me Morocca. It was edited
Speaker 1: by Moral Wolves and engineered by Josh Hahn, with fact
Speaker 1: checking by Naomi bar Our production company is Neon Houm Media.
Speaker 1: Our archival produce sir is Jamie Benson. Our theme music
Speaker 1: is written by Daniel Hart. Indispensable support from Craig Swaggler,
Speaker 1: Dustin Gervais, Alan Pang, Reggie Basio and everyone at CBS
Speaker 1: News Radio. Special thanks to David France, Tom Biola, Bill
Speaker 1: Keith Richard, j Alexander, Megan Marcus, Molly Raleigh, Steven Spanbauer,
Speaker 1: and Alberto Robina. The Invincible. Aaron Shrank is our senior producer.
Speaker 1: Executive producers for Mobituaries include Steve Raizys and Morocca. The
Speaker 1: series is created by Yours Truly and as always, thanks
Speaker 1: to Rant Morrison and John carp for helping breathe life
Speaker 1: into Mobituaries