1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Early in the morning 2 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: on October the nineteenth, twenty nineteen, in a little town 3 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: in Idaho, a lady who was in her late forties 4 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: was found deceeised, and, for whatever reason still remains a 5 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: mystery to this day, the decision was made for an 6 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: autopsy not to be performed. That lady's name is Tammy 7 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: Dabell and her case is critical in a much broader 8 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: investigation that's going on. As a matter of fact, the 9 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: absence of an autopsy in that case could have severe 10 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: repercussions moving forward. Today we're going to be discussing autopsies, 11 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: what they are, who makes a determination as to when 12 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: they occur, And I'm going to tell you a little 13 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: bit about my background with autopsies. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 14 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybags. I've been involved in death investigation 15 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: for the majority of my adult life, either working in 16 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: the morgue, out in the field as an investigator or 17 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: now as an academic talking about medical legal death investigation 18 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: every single day that I walk into school. And my 19 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,919 Speaker 1: friend Jackie Howard, who's the executive producer of Crime Stories 20 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Jackie. We've talked about autopsies a lot, 21 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: haven't we. 22 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: We have, Joe, And the more that we talk about it, 23 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 2: the more that I want to know. As we laid 24 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: out our plans for what we wanted to discuss the day, 25 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: the questions just started pouring. So I figure the best 26 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: place to start is with a simple question, what is 27 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: an autopsy? 28 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: An autopsy is essentially, there's another way to put this, 29 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: it's essentially a post mortem examination. And that's in a 30 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: very very broad sense. But when you hear the term autopsy, 31 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: it conjures up images of an old, dilapidated morgue. You've 32 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: got more personnel running about, there's coolers where bodies are stored, 33 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 1: and generally a stainless steel table, and that's not too 34 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: far off the mark. But we have to understand that 35 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: when we conduct an autopsy, we are trying to determine 36 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: what exactly happened, what brought about the death of an 37 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: individual that was not necessarily otherwise explained. And so when 38 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: you begin to go down this road in the autopsy suite, 39 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: you know some people, interestingly enough, historically they've referred to 40 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: in the historic record as doctors that do autopsies. They'll 41 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: refer to them as surgical pathology, and surgical pathology now 42 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: means like you've got a doctor that goes up to 43 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: surgery that's a pathologist, and they look at frozen sections 44 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: of tumors that have been removed from people, and they'll 45 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: look at them instantaneously and try to give you a diagnosis. 46 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: But there is a part to surgical pathology that goes 47 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: along with autopsy examinations where pathologists will engage in literally 48 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: the dissection or pro section of human remains to try 49 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: to determine what exactly brought about to death. Because absent 50 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: those clinical diagnoses that you arrive at by virtue of 51 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: doing these examinations, you don't actually have a final or 52 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: a fatal diagnosis. The biggest questions that families have, that 53 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: can unies have is absolutely what happened, How did they die? 54 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: When did they die, What was the mechanism that brought 55 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: about their death? And hopefully through an autopsy you can 56 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: make that determination. 57 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: One of the things that you said just Sinjoe really 58 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: caught my attention, and it was having to do with 59 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: when an autopsy is done and when is it not done. 60 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: I find it really interesting in the Tammy dabl case, 61 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: as you mentioned that an autopsy was not initially done. 62 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: Who determines that and why would you not? I mean, 63 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: I know, in certain especially in the elderly, when it's 64 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: thought to be natural causes, they don't necessarily do an 65 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: autopsy to try to figure out why this person died. 66 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: So who makes that determination and why? 67 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: Well, ultimately it's going to be the lead medical legal 68 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: authority and a jurisdiction. And you got to back up 69 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: and understand that in the United States in particular, we 70 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: have two separate types of systems. Here. You have corner systems, 71 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: which are elected officials and they're not necessarily always physicians. 72 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, most of the time they're 73 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: not physicians. People will be surprised to hear that. And 74 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: then you have medical examiner systems, which are essentially run 75 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: by physicians who many times are in fact forensic pathologist. 76 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: So it really varies from state to state who's going 77 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: to make the determination. Most of the time, the state statute, 78 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: that is, the state law will dictate who has the 79 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: authority to make a decision about an autopsy. And contrary 80 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: to popular belief, I hear and famously with the Tammy 81 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: Davell case, it was stated that it was the family's 82 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: wishes not to have an autopsy performed in her case, 83 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: and kind of sitting there scratching your head and saying, 84 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: I got a healthy young woman here that's out and 85 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: running every day and seems vibrant and healthy. Why in 86 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: the world would you not want an autopsy? And there's 87 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: a many layers to that. Families don't want to think 88 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: about their family members undergoing this procedure. They don't want 89 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: to think about everything that's involved with it. They just 90 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: want to go to the funeral home with the remains. 91 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, if it's not done, and it's not done 92 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: in a timely fashion, one or two things is going 93 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: to happen. Either you'll never have answers to this questions, 94 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: or in Tammy Dabell's case, she had been embalmed transport 95 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: to another state and had been buried. Even after her 96 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: body is exhumed. In that case, any kind of findings 97 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: that there may have been originally are going to be 98 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: so compromised by the time it's really going to be 99 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: difficult to make heads or tails. So most of the 100 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: time it will be dependent upon what the medical legal 101 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: authority again back to medical examiner or corner views as 102 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: the best interest at that point in time to come 103 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: up with an answer, scientific valid answer to try to 104 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: determine what brought about this person's sudden death. And it 105 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: is not dependent upon what the family wants. Okay, now 106 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: that sounds cruel, but you know most of the time 107 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: families are in no position to make that decision. And 108 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: also they're a greater interest at work here. And we 109 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: can go down the list. You got a homicide that's happened. 110 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: Family's not going to have any weight given to their 111 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: protest about an autopsy not being performed in that case 112 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: because it's obvious. But you have to document it if 113 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: you're going to prosecute a case. And then you have 114 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: these kind of mysterious circumstances where you don't have any answers. 115 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: Joe, let me ask you something here in relating to 116 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: what you're talking about. Can an autopsy be done even 117 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: though the family doesn't want it to be? I mean, 118 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: like in this case, the family said that an autopsy 119 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: was not necessary here, could the corner or the medical 120 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: personnel have said, then we're doing an autopsy anyway? 121 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: They have authority under the state law to do that. 122 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: They can say, well, I respect what you're saying, I 123 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: understand why you might not want one done, but there's 124 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: bigger interest at work here. We have to make a 125 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: determination about manner and cause of death here and find 126 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: out what exactly happened, and there's reasons why you do that. 127 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: First off, it's a mystery that you have to have 128 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: an answer for the corner or the medical examiner is 129 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: going to be the one that actually, you know, you 130 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: hear the term death certificate. People don't think about that. 131 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: That means that death is being certified. Okay, Well, if 132 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: you don't have a reason that is put forth as 133 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: a result of a pathology finding where you're looking for 134 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: disease or some kind of mechanism of death, what are 135 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: you going to list as the cause of death gunshot 136 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: wound or myocardial infarction or lung cancer, leukemia, or whatever 137 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: it is the person has going on in dwelling within 138 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: their body or some kind of external event that occurred 139 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: to bring about their death. If you don't go in 140 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: and actually examine that and make a note of that 141 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: and make an absolute diagnosis, how are you going to 142 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: do that? How are you going to list the cause 143 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: of death. I mean you can't just like it doesn't 144 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: just come to you psychically out of the air. You 145 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: have to see it. It's a scientific procedure, it's a study. 146 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: And then how are you going to list the manner 147 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: of death? We've only got five to choose from natural, suicide, homicide, unexplained, undetermined. 148 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: You've got all of those that you have to choose 149 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: from as well. So if you have nothing to put 150 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: on the death certificate, you're going to have a death certificate. 151 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: It's going to remain probably incomplete for a protracted period 152 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: of time because you're asking for the official to put 153 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: down an official diagnosis and an official manner of death 154 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: that they don't have any insight into. And of course 155 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: the autopsy itself is the best way to do that. 156 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: Gloria Sadderfield having to do with the case of the 157 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: murd All's over in South Carolina, Gloria Sadderfield, the Murderall's housekeeper, 158 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: reportedly tripped over dogs going down the stairs outside the 159 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: home the brick stairway, yet her cause of death, if 160 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken, was listed as natural causes. 161 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is super bizarre, you know, particularly with the 162 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: case of Gloria Sadterfield. You've got a woman that had 163 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: obviously sustained some type of very specific head trauma that 164 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: brought her to the hospital. And one of the ways 165 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: I teach my students, there's that old poem that we 166 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: talk about, and I don't know, folks, I'm not going 167 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: to recite the whole thing. I'll spare spare the audience 168 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: that the old poem that goes, you know, for the 169 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,719 Speaker 1: want of a nail, the shoe was lost, for the 170 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: warm of the shoe, A horse was lost, for the 171 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: want of a horse, a rider was lost, a message 172 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: was lost, and so forth and so on. So you 173 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: have a genesis in the beginning as to how all 174 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: of these dominoes begin to fall. And in Saderfield's case, well, 175 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: what brought her to the hospital. Was it that she 176 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: had a cardiac event? Was it that she had a stroke, 177 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: Was it that she got struck by lightning? Well, none 178 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: of the above. She fell and sustained head trauma. But 179 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: yet they're listing this whole event as a natural event. 180 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: And here's here's what's crazy about that case is that 181 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: a private attending physician signed her death certificate. And this 182 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: case was never reported to the corner. Listen, if a 183 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: person rolls into the hospital as a result of a 184 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: traumatic event and they don't exit that hospital and they 185 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: die inside the walls, and I don't care how long 186 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: they've been in the hospital. If they come in as 187 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: a result of trauma and that trauma is directly related 188 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,719 Speaker 1: to their death, that is a reportable case. And it's 189 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: my understanding the case was never even reported to the corner, 190 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: and that's a problem because the corner is not aware, 191 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: they can't make a decision about whether or not an 192 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: autopsy should be performed. Or she had been in for 193 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: a while, so they're going to request the records and 194 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: examine the records, all of the imaging, everything that comes 195 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: along with that, and they'll sign the death certificate. But 196 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: a private physician can't list a traumatic cause of death, 197 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: and they can't qualify a traumatic cause of death. So 198 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: private physician can't say blunt force trauma and the manner 199 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: of death is homicide or accident. That will get rejected. 200 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: Most of the time, it's going to be rejected by 201 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: the state Health department or whoever handles all of the paperwork, 202 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: the public health agency that handles a paperwork for the state, 203 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: and that's why it always goes back to the corner. 204 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: But if the corner is not aware of it, the 205 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: death has not been reported, that's going to be a 206 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: problem going forward. 207 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: So then the question begs to be answered once a 208 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: decision is made to do an autopsy, is what kind 209 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 2: of an autopsy is there going to be? If it's 210 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: an autopsy is always the same, do you start with 211 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: a through z or are there truly different kinds of autopsies? 212 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: There are different degrees to autopsies. When you bring a 213 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: body into a morgue, for instance, you can do what's 214 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: called an external examination, which means that the body will 215 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: be completely photographed as is upon arrival. That means with 216 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: clothing on. Okay, some places actually do X rays just 217 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: so that they have them. You disrobe the body, the 218 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 1: pathologists and their assistant do a complete and total examination 219 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: of the body unclothed. Then, in addition to that, you're 220 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: going to draw samples for toxicology, and what these are 221 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: going to be is you'll draw what's referred to as 222 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: heart blood. Most of the time you're going to try 223 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: to end this is externally and it's drawn from the aorda. 224 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: So folks will find their collar bone on the left 225 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: hand side and go down the intercostal spaces, which is 226 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: kind of the muscle in between each rib group, and 227 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: go down about the third intercostal space in the ribs 228 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: on the front side, okay, adjacent to the sternum. There 229 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: will be a needle inserted there and it will go 230 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: into the a order, which is the big vessel that 231 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: comes off the curved vessel that comes off of the 232 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: top of the heart. And it takes practice to learn 233 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: how to do this, but over a period of time 234 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: we do it by touch. It's something that we can do. 235 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: And then you draw blood out of that area, and 236 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: then we take another needle and we draw externally. We 237 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: will draw urine, and finally we'll draw vitreous fluid which 238 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: comes from the eye, and all of those fluids are 239 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: submitted for toxicology and we'll run the entire panel. But 240 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: to the broader question here, that's the first kind of 241 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: stop along the continuum where we're doing an external examination 242 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: and it doesn't rise to the same level as a 243 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: full autopsy or even a partial autopsy, which I'm not 244 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: a fan of, but you just do the external examination. 245 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: You draw the fluids, and then those are submitted generally 246 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: to either a local hospital or state crime lab, and 247 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: you run a drug panel, and you already have a suspicion. 248 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: If you're going to do an external examination, you already 249 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: have a suspicion that you might know what cause death is, 250 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: but you just want to rule out everything else, any 251 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: kind of external trauma. Maybe the person died and they 252 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: weren't found for a while, and then you'll move forward. 253 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: Maybe you can even get the private physician. If it's 254 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: a natural death, which if you're not doing an autopsy, 255 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: it's probably a natural death. The private physician can sign 256 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: the death certificate and they'll list a specific cause of death. Again, 257 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: back to acute mild cardial infarction, which is essentially a 258 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: fancy way of saying heart attack, and that is a 259 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: natural classified as a natural death. Now you'll have events 260 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: that a pathologist will make a decision or the enemy 261 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: of the coroner will make a decision. We're only going 262 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: to a partial autopsy. And I have a problem with 263 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: this because it's like you've got one foot in the 264 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: water and one foot in the boat. If you're going 265 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: to do it commit to it, do it. And there 266 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: even cases like if you have suicides, for instance, subject 267 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: has sustained a gunshot woman of the head, they might 268 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: only in certain jurisdictions they might actually only open the head, 269 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: for instance, and retrieve a projectile, and then they don't 270 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: touch the rest of the body. And that's a problem. 271 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: It can be a problem everybody needs to understand. It's 272 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: foundationally in the medical legal world. Our supposition is this, 273 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: and everything that we do we work under this big 274 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: banner that says every death, not some deaths, not a 275 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: few deaths. We from jump Street. We go forward with 276 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: this idea that every death is in fact a homicide 277 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: until we can prove otherwise. Okay, Because if you start 278 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: out at that really intense high level of trying to 279 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: make a determination about homicide, as you kind of make 280 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: your way through these checklists that we have, you get 281 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: to the next level maybe accident or suicide. Then you 282 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: get to maybe natural and you've kind of checked the 283 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: boxes along the way. You have to be able to 284 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: effectively rule all these things out. So back to this 285 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: idea of a partial autopsy. If you're only going to 286 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: do a partial autopsy, why why not go ahead and 287 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: do the entire autopsy. In that way, it's complete. It's 288 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: only going to take you maybe another forty five minutes 289 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: to an hour to get everything done, and it can 290 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: lead to problems down the road. You'll have people saying, well, 291 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: they had this problem or they had that problem, why 292 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: didn't you look at this? And while you have the 293 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: body there in front of you, you go ahead and 294 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: you do the whole thing. I engage in these discussions 295 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: many times with my students at Jacksonville Stone teach and 296 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: they'll say, how you know, Professor Morgan, how'd you get 297 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: into this environment? How'd you start doing this? How'd you 298 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 1: start working in the morgue? Well, why did you choose 299 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: to be in the morgue? Let me tell you something 300 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: and hear me right. The best classroom that I've ever 301 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: been in, and I've paid a lot of money for 302 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: tuition over the years, the best classroom that I was 303 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: ever in that I was actually paid to be in 304 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: as opposed to having to pay tuition for was the 305 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: autopsy room. I learned more about death investigation than I 306 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: ever did out on a scene with a deceased person 307 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: or sitting around having coffee with an old investigator and 308 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: they're telling war stories. I've learned more in the autopsy suite, 309 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: actually getting my hands sturdy and being there to actually 310 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: see these things before me demonstrated, to see the mechanisms 311 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: that are involved, to see all of the underlying disease. 312 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: You can't have a better environment in which to learn. 313 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 2: In Okay, then lay this out for me, Joe, you 314 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: were talking for about a full autopsy. Explain that to me. 315 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: And how long does an autopsies take. 316 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: You Remember how I had mentioned we had talked about 317 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: an external examination. Well, every autopsy starts off with an 318 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: external examination. Now, in some cases where you have what 319 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: you suspect is natural disease, it might begin and end 320 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: with that and then the body will be released. However, 321 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: a full autopsy will in fact start with an external examination, 322 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: and you go from stem to stern relative to the 323 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: overall status of the body. All of this is made 324 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: noa throughout the examination. I mean measurements. We go into 325 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 1: great detail relative to measurements. Now a lot of this 326 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: is actually dictated by particularly if you've got traumatic cases, say, 327 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: for instance, like with Ellen Greenberg where she was stabbed. 328 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: Some people have said twenty times some people have said 329 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: more than twenty times. You've got so much trauma there 330 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: that each individual insult that she has externally has to 331 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: be measured in orient anatomically. Say, for instance, if someone 332 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: has been let's just say somebody has been shot to 333 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: the right of their sternal, which is the hard plate 334 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: of the breastbone on the anterior chest. They've been shot 335 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: to the right. Well, just for that gunshot wound alone, 336 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: you would have to get a measurement first off of 337 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: the overall circumference of the wound itself, and then you 338 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: have to measure Some people do from two points, some 339 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: people do from three, like from if it's on the 340 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: right side of the sternal, you would do a measurement 341 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: from the center of the wound to the apex of 342 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: the right shoulder, and then maybe from the center of 343 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: the womb to the apex of the left shoulder, and 344 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: then from the center of the womb to the top 345 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: of the head. That takes time. And then if you 346 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: have somebody that's stabbed multiple times, shot multiple times, each 347 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: one of those injuries dictates the speed at which you 348 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: can do this, because you want to do a thorough examination. 349 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: I've had people that have been stabbed well in excess 350 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: of one hundred times, and you can just imagine the 351 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: external examination loan. It is a herculean task, to say 352 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: the least, and then you might have three or four 353 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: other autopsies that you're going to have to do that day. 354 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: But once you get done with the external examination, then 355 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: the body is of course, you're on a stainless still 356 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: autopsy table and these are either fixed on the floor 357 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: or they're own rollers where the and they're kind of 358 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: set at a pitch because you're going to lose fluid 359 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: and the fluid will run down the stainless steel table 360 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: either into a pre established drain that you have on 361 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: a fixed table or into this big kind of catch 362 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: all sink. It's a working station that you have, and 363 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: all of that fluid is washed away and you'll have 364 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: multiple autopsy stations. You go to one of these really 365 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: big shops in large metropolitan areas and they might have 366 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: the ability to have five autopsies, say for instance, going 367 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: on at one time, and you might have multiple physicians, 368 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: multiple autopsy assistance photographers, everybody doing these examinations all at 369 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: one time, particularly if you're talking about like a mass 370 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: casual event or if it's a really really busy day. 371 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: And so after the external examination is done, essentially the 372 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: chest and the abdomen are opened and we use what's 373 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: referred to as a standard wine incision, and so it 374 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: forms a y where you make a diagonal cut from 375 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: the apex of the left shoulder the apex of the 376 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: right shoulder down to midsternal. Well, because it enables us 377 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: to effectively remove back or retract that external layer of tissue, 378 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: which includes skin, the subc fat, all of the muscle 379 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: tissue that's in dwelling, and it reveals everything. And also 380 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: the body is on what's called it's blocked in the back. 381 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: You have kind of these rubber blocks. You put them 382 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: beneath the shoulder blades and it hyper extends, hyper extends 383 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: the chest so that the shoulders kind of fall to 384 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: the side. The body really opens up and you can 385 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: appreciate once you get the body open, you can appreciate 386 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: all of the viscera and that's the internal structures very well. 387 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: They can all be visualized in place, and you want 388 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: to be able to see it. I mean, just imagine, 389 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: if you will, You've got someone that has been shot 390 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: and let's say they're shot in the left side. If 391 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: people will put their finger beneath their armpit on the 392 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: left side, and that bullet travels from the left and 393 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: it travels maybe slightly upward from below to above, and 394 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: it almost transsects the body, which means it cuts across 395 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: the entirety of the middle line of the body, and 396 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: it exits out beneath the right arm pit. You've got 397 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: all of these structures that are impacted, and let's think 398 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: what structures might be. Well, you've got the left lung, 399 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: which has only two lobes because the heart's on the 400 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: left side. It may go through the heart, then it's 401 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: going to go through the right lung, which has got 402 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: three lobes, and then it's going to exit through all 403 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: of that tissue. And you have to track that wound 404 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: see what structures are impacted by this, because what you're 405 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: looking for is when you make that final diagnosis of 406 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: what led to death, was it simply the lung that 407 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: was impacted, was it the heart, or was it in 408 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: total all of these structures being impacted, Say, for instance, 409 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: if it penetrated the heart, was that injury that was 410 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: sustained as a result of that gunshot wind sufficient to 411 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: cause more of an instantaneous death or did this individual linger. 412 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: What you're describing for me here is an autopsy is 413 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: a lengthy procedure. 414 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, particularly when you've got these highly complex 415 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: cases where you've got multiple trauma. Now you might if 416 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: you have a case, for instance, where an individual is 417 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: say these very sad, but we do more of these 418 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: than anything else. I would imagine as far as trauma goes, 419 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: and those are suicides, Well, you've got a single self 420 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: inflicted gunshot wind, or at least you think that it 421 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: might be. But remember our starting point is every death 422 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: is a homicide until we prove otherwise. You've got a 423 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: single bullet in that case, and you track that bullet 424 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: and once say it's a self inflicted gunshot wound to 425 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: the head. Well, maybe they're right handed. It went from 426 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: the right side of the head to the left side 427 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: of the head. Maybe it stayed in, maybe it exited. 428 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: You're going to track that wound, and beyond that, there's 429 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: not too much more to discover. You're going to try 430 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: to rule out any other kind of trauma that may 431 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: or may not be present. And this again goes to 432 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: another underlined principle within forensics, negative findings are just as 433 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: important as positive findings. So an absence of trauma is significant. Okay, 434 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: all right, So if I can say an autopsy that 435 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: there's no trauma to the neck, well that's something that 436 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: has to be made note of. You cannot just assume 437 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: that people will understand there was no trauma to the neck, 438 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: because if this thing were to go to court for 439 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: whatever reason, one of the questions that's going to be 440 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: asked of the person conducting the autopsy is, well, you 441 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: don't say anything about what you saw with the neck. 442 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: Does that mean that it didn't examine the neck or 443 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: does that mean that you didn't see anything? Why would 444 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: you fail? I mean the next pretty significant, right, and 445 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: you wind up looking like an idiot on the stand. 446 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: So you cover that you have to document that there 447 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: was no trauma to the neck, or that there was 448 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: trauma to the neck. All of it is part and 449 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: parcel of a bigger picture. So you're right when you 450 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 1: say that these things take time. It's not just the 451 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: individual trauma that you can see. You also have to 452 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: document those things that are not there. And that's quite 453 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: fascinating when you think about it. There's not too many 454 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: other things in life that you document the absence of something. 455 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: In that sense, I've always been fascinated by that one 456 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: little point that's very significant in forensic pathology in particular. 457 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 2: You are describing autopsy suites in larger areas where they 458 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: can have multiple tables and autopsies going at the same time. 459 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 2: Given the amount of time that it seems to take 460 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: for each autopsy, and given how many deaths unfortunately that 461 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: most cit see every day, the idea that we see 462 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: in some cop shows that hey, can you push this 463 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: to the top of the line. Does that work? 464 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to be I guess kind of cheeky here, 465 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to say that all depends on how many 466 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: politicians called the official. Most of the time, you'd want 467 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: to think, no, everybody waits their turn. But if there 468 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: are particular high profile cases that are going on that 469 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: particular day. Look back historically, I think, and you think 470 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: about cases like Ron Goldman for instance, and Nicole Rown Simpson, 471 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: well that was at the La County corner where those 472 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: examinations were done. You would like to think that that 473 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: particular forensic pathologist and their team that was involved in 474 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: that case would have been on those two cases in 475 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: those two cases alone, and that they would have been 476 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: given as much time as possible. However, I don't think 477 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: that people appreciate the volume of cases that come through 478 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: a shop like La County. That same day, they may 479 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: have had twenty other autopsies that had to be done. 480 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: And there is a finite number of forensic pathologists out there, 481 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, depend upon who you ask. 482 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: At any point in time, you'll hear numbers like five 483 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: point fifty or six hundred board certified forensic pathologists nationwide. Okay, 484 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: just let that sink in. There's and I'm not saying 485 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists are smarter than a neurosurgeon, but there are 486 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: more neurosurgeons out there practicing than there are forensic pathologists. 487 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: And if you want that level of skill to be 488 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: performed for an autopsy, you're going to have to really 489 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: look for these people and attract them to work in 490 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: a particular area, because, let's face it, you go to 491 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: the large urban areas, people will apply for those jobs 492 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: and they will have availability, they'll have a need for 493 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists. But you go to a more rural area, 494 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: they're not going to have access necessarily to a forendsic 495 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: pathologist because there's so very few. It just the numbers 496 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: just dictate that, and so it's really an odd position 497 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: to be in. And then even if you have a 498 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: full staff, you get to these areas, these big urban 499 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: areas where they have huge volumes of deaths and autopsies 500 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: that have to be performed. Those staffs are overworked many 501 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: many times, and it's hard to get people to come 502 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: into the field. It looks really sexy on TV and 503 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: people talk about it, and I have kids that come 504 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: to me all the time say they want to be 505 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist. But what's fascinating is I've talked to 506 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: people over the years and one of the interesting things 507 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: is is that when forends of pathologists go through their training, 508 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: it's one of those unique kind of educational journeys where 509 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: the more education you get, essentially the less you get paid. Okay, 510 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: so if you just stop at a fellowship or an 511 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: internship with being a clinical pathologist and an anatomical pathologist 512 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: you're work in the hospital, you're going to make a 513 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: lot more than the guy that goes on beyond that 514 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: training and doesn't one year fellowship in forensic pathology and 515 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: you're going to wind up working in a more work 516 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: in a city, in an urban area most of the time, 517 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: dealing with the most unpleasant cases you can imagine, and 518 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: then traveling around and going to court, and you're going 519 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: to get paid as a government employee. That's kind of 520 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: one of the little dynamics that you know, kind of 521 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: that you're kind of faced with in the medical legal community. 522 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: Joe, you mentioned surgeons just a second ago. Is an 523 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: autopsy considered surgery? 524 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: I think for years it has been regarded as a 525 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: type of surgery, and you will hear the term autopsy surgeon, 526 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: particularly going back years and years. I love history, and 527 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: what's really kind of fascinating about the trajectory that you 528 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: see with gross atomical dissection is that even up until 529 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: I guess probably the early eighteen hundreds, the first part 530 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, it was illegal in many places 531 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: to do dissections on human remains period. And you know, 532 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of stories about ray robbers that would 533 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: go and disinter bodies, and that would bring them back 534 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: to medical schools, and by the light of whaleaa lamp 535 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: or whatever, medical students in order to try to learn 536 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: anatomy would dissect these bodies that had been removed from 537 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: the ground just to try to understand anatomy. And so 538 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: it has not been something that has been done for 539 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: centuries and centuries and centuries because it was so prohibited 540 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: for so long. Now through the twentieth century and obviously 541 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: into the twenty first now you know autopsies are common, 542 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: they are a necessity. A very small percentage of the 543 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: cases that a medical examiner or corner deal with are homicides, 544 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: and that's what you always think about with people in 545 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: my field, and that's not the case. It's just not 546 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: the lines share cases we deal with are some kind 547 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: of a natural event. If you don't have an interest 548 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: in natural disease pathology, looking at bodies where you're trying 549 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: to make a determination about manner cause of day, it's 550 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: not going to be gunshot wounds. Most of the time, 551 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: you're going to be dealing with natural disease and trying 552 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: to make a determination. There's beer considerations here. Number One 553 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,479 Speaker 1: is the community in which these people live. Did this 554 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: person suddenly die because there's some kind of public health issue. 555 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: I was in Atlanta when we were at the height 556 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: of one of the biggest TV scares in the nation. 557 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: We were like the TV capital of the nation in 558 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: like the nineties or something, and we had all of 559 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: these people that were homeless in other people that were 560 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: dying of TV. That's a public health concern, and then 561 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: you think about broad ranging other diseases that are out there. 562 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: I started my career at the height of the AIDS epidemic, 563 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: and we were terrified to be in the morgue because 564 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: we didn't know what was going to happen if we 565 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: stuck ourselves with a dirty needle or cut ourselves with 566 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: a dirty scalpel, and that does happen. We've all been 567 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: nicked in the morgue. It's not as clean as people think. 568 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: It's not as necessarily precise as like a standard of surgery. 569 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: You know, when you go into these environments, because you're 570 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: doing multiple cases, you're doing them quickly. It's a different 571 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: world to kind of be a part of. But absolutely 572 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: grateful that I was part of that world because I 573 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: learned more. Now I have an opportunity to teach. When 574 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: people found out what I did for a living, I'd 575 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: get one of two reactions. Either people would lean in 576 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: and want to hear more. Because by our nature. As humans, 577 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: we have morbid curiosity about things. Or I've actually answered 578 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: the question of what I did for a living at 579 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: a party and had people immediately turn on their heel 580 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: and walk away. They don't want to hear anything else 581 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: about death. Rarely middle ground when that conversation starts. You. 582 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 2: Now, I never thought that I had a morbid curiosity 583 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 2: about me, but I have been proven wrong. The more 584 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: I talk about you, the more I want to know. 585 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 2: So let's play twenty questions, so to speak with Joe 586 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: Scott Morgan. What makes a person want to deal with 587 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 2: dead bodies? And how do you get into that profession? 588 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: How do you get to work in a morgue? 589 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: For me, it was a curious set of circumstances. Now 590 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: it's really actually difficult to get into a more to 591 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 1: even view an autopsy because of all of the health 592 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: considerations and all those sorts of things. But I happen 593 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 1: to be working at a hospital in security and working 594 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: also as an er tech while the morgue in our 595 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: parish down there was being renovated and they started bringing 596 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: bodies to our hospital to do the autopsies for the parish, 597 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: which is the same as a county and I became 598 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: friends with the people at the coroner's office, and I 599 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: would be the one that would shuffle bodies in and 600 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 1: out the door, and there were huge volume of them, 601 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: and I just became friends with these folks and started, 602 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: believe it or not, I started attending autopsies on my 603 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: free time, not getting paid, but I was just fascinated 604 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: by it because I'd always been a science guy. And 605 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: the next thing I knew, I was taking notes for them, 606 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: and eventually they allowed me to participate in autopsy. 607 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: Okay, wait, wait taking notes for them? What does that mean? 608 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: Well, I would work as a scribe for the forensic pathologist. 609 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: If you can imagine the stupid young kid who had 610 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 1: no background in it, but was willing to sit there 611 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: with bloated, decomposing remains. Horrible traumatic cases, the worst of 612 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: the worst cases you can possibly see. And I didn't 613 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: necessarily retract or retreat from it. And that's not always 614 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: a circumstance when people go to an autopsy for the 615 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: first time. I've had one of my best friends that 616 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: became a fantastic homicide investigator. I was in the middle 617 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: of opening a unshot wound victim's head in the middle 618 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: of it, and he my friend just kind of back up. 619 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: My friend was actually a burglary detective in the jurisdiction 620 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,959 Speaker 1: where I was working, and he and I played golf 621 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 1: together over the years and whatnot. He wanted to transition 622 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: to the homicide One of the requirements is you had 623 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: to go to autopsies. He'd never been and famously I'd 624 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: used that kind of high pitched saw. It's called striker 625 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: saw and agitating saw. Its like cast saw. And I 626 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: was opening the skull and the friends of pathologist looked 627 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: up at me over his mask and he said you 628 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: better check on him. And I looked over and my 629 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: friend was turning green and he stood up. And he's 630 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: a big guy, I mean just really big, bowld tough guy. 631 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 1: He's the kind of guy you'd worn on your side 632 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: if there was a fight. And he's always dressed to 633 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: the nines. And he begins to back up and retreat 634 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: away from the autopsy area down a little hallway, and 635 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: he collapsed and went up against a tiled wall in 636 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: this old hospital and slid down the wall. I look 637 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: back now and augh at it, because I was covered. 638 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: You can't imagine I was doing autops He had blood 639 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: on me, and we used to wear these big yellow 640 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: gloves that just made the blood pop even more. And 641 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: he's my friend. I was concerned. I thought he'd hurt 642 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: his head. And I was approaching him, walking toward him, saying, 643 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: are you okay? Are you okay? And he automatically he's 644 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: still nauseated and dizzy throws his hands up like I'm 645 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 1: a monster, and he says no, no, back away, back away, 646 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: because I'm coming at him and I've got blood all 647 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: over me. And it was just it's one of those 648 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: curious environments that only certain people have the ability to 649 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: be able to go into and maintain their focus. I 650 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: belong to Well, that's the key. It's hard to kind 651 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: of measure that until you've been in that environment. Some 652 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: people think they want to do it, but then they 653 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: get in there and they realize from jump Street that 654 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: they don't have the And it's not a judgment of them, 655 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: it's just some people react differently to seeing a human 656 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: being that is being opened on a table. Now I 657 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: think that that's natural, but you kind of I think 658 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: I've said that you kind of develop a callous to it. 659 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: And I don't mean you become callous. You just develop 660 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: almost like if you're a carpenter and you're swinging a hammer, 661 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: your hands are suited to that. After a period of time, 662 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: you build up a callus on your hand so you 663 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: can handle the hammer. And for us, we build up 664 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: a kind of a callous to those things that are 665 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: required of us to do, because who else you're going 666 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: to get to do it? You know, people say they 667 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: want to do it, but there's one thing about saying 668 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: you want to do it, and there's another part to 669 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 1: it doing it. You know, over the course of my career, 670 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: I wound up participating in over seven thousand autopsies, so 671 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: I stuck around a little while. 672 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: That is a lot of bodies. You've seen those bodies 673 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 2: in all stages of things that would fit inside a 674 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 2: horror movie. 675 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you have. And sometimes if I happen to 676 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: watch horror movie, which I generally don't, I'll look at 677 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: it immediately say that doesn't look real. I'll say, wow, 678 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: somebody really did their research. This looks very accurate. It's 679 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 1: weird how you kind of judge things like that when 680 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: you know you've been involved in a field, But yeah, 681 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: you really do. They run the gamut I talked about 682 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: it in my memoir Blood Beneath My Feet. I talked 683 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: about a horrible kind of event where we had a 684 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: barge that capsized in the Gulf of Mexico that were 685 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: trying to outrun a hurricane that was inbound and they 686 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: didn't make it, and I think we had sixteen sixteen 687 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: men that lost their lives, and they came in slowly. 688 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: They were able to be recovered because they some of 689 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: them weren't still on board when the thing capsized. They 690 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: went over, and of course the bodies were sitting in 691 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: the heat in the Gulf of Mexico, subject to everything 692 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: that's in the Gulf of Mexico, and so you get 693 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: partial remains, then you get intact remains that are severely 694 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: bloated and compromised. We had a very small facility and 695 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: did a high ball of cases, and we still had 696 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: our other cases we had to do. But we had 697 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: to bring in a refrigerated truck and store these bodies, 698 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: and we had to do all kinds of intense exams, 699 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean everything to removing the jaws on the bodies, 700 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: to do odento logical examinations to try to determine who 701 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: these people were, and I was around those bodies for 702 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: so long, and this is not the first time that 703 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: it happened to me or one of my one of 704 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: my colleagues. I was around those bodies for so many days, 705 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: and in that environment, I couldn't get rid of the smell. 706 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't. I literally wound up having to shave my 707 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: entire body because no matter how much I showered and 708 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,760 Speaker 1: bathed and all these sorts of things, even using vinegar 709 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: and all those things that they tell you, I couldn't 710 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: get rid of it. I think that part of that 711 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: goes to there's an actual physical thing that happens, but 712 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: I think there's a scarring. I think that happens emotionally 713 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: with that too, where you kind of bear that along. 714 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: And we had this kind of weird culture in the 715 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: medical legal community. We would walk up almost like you 716 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: see these apes in these National geographic documentaries where they 717 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: pick at knits and that sort of thing, and we 718 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,479 Speaker 1: had this. We would check one another before we would 719 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: go out. Maybe we'd gone out on a case where 720 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: we had a decomposing body and we would smell each other. 721 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: We'd say, I've got to go talk to a family. 722 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: How do I smell, and that's a weird Just think 723 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: about that dynamic within an office and you become friends 724 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: with these people you know and say, yeah, do I 725 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: smell bad? And it's not because you haven't bathed or 726 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: used the odorant, but if you've been in the presence 727 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: of a decomposed body, you don't want to expose the 728 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: public to that. And so that's that's kind of a 729 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: weird little nuance that we have in our community. 730 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 2: Joe, you were talking about your friends and getting to 731 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 2: be friends with these people and how they deal with it, 732 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 2: but how did your family deal with it? 733 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: Well, interesting little aside. My wife Kim, that you know 734 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: and have met. We've hung out and y'all are friends. 735 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: We actually met on a blind day, and of course, 736 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: being on a blind day, it's very uncomfortable anyway. And 737 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 1: when I look on a little side here, when I 738 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: saw her, She's the most beautiful creature I've ever seen 739 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: in my life. And I'm thinking, you better make the 740 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: most of this. 741 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 2: Boy. 742 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 1: You're you're never gonna have another shop with a woman 743 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:12,240 Speaker 1: that is this beautiful. 744 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 2: And we okay, enough with the brownie, Enough with the 745 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 2: brownie point is Jack? 746 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: Well, we went on. We went on a date, and 747 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: after we went to a ball game together, and afterwards 748 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: we go to a restaurant, actually a pizza place, and 749 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: we're sitting across from one another having a conversation, and 750 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: she's saying, now, tell me again, what is it that 751 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: you do for a living. And I'm sitting there and 752 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: I'm describing to her that I work for the medical Examiner, 753 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: which is like the corner and we go out and 754 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: examine the dead and make determinations about who they are 755 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: because they might be unidentified, and we also do autopsies. 756 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: That's that's the way we go about this. And she's 757 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: kind of sitting there with this open jawed expression on 758 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: her face, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I've really 759 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: blown this. And then all of a sudden, she looks 760 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: at me and she says, until I met you, I 761 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: never thought about death. And you know, you can take 762 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 1: anything you want to away from that story, but it's 763 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: not a good beginning to a blind date. But she 764 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: found it interesting because most people, most people out there, 765 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 1: they don't think about death. They think about their life. 766 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 1: And the same with my wife. She didn't think about death. 767 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: But when you're sitting there with someone that engages in 768 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,839 Speaker 1: this work every single day. It suddenly comes to full 769 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: form before you and you have to consider it one 770 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: way or another. This is the bottom line for it. 771 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: It's horrible, horrible business, and you have to make a 772 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: decision of your own free will if you want to 773 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: be there or not. And if you decide to be there, 774 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: then you do the job to the best of your ability, 775 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 1: and you understand that you have a unique space that 776 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 1: you occupy providing a service that a few other people 777 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: are equipped to deal with. It doesn't mean that we're 778 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 1: any better than anybody else. It just means that we 779 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: have a set of skills that enable us to tolerate 780 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: that environment within reason. But on the human side of it, 781 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: and this happened to me, it wears on you. The 782 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:30,320 Speaker 1: human mind is only equipped to deal with so much horror. 783 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: We're not created that way. We're not equipped that way. 784 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: You hit tolerances, and I know personally, I can't speak 785 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: for any of my colleagues, but I know personally I 786 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: paid a tremendous price with constant nightmares, you know, panic attacks, 787 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: and all those things that came along with the diagnosis 788 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: of PTTSD. At the end of my career. But even 789 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: though I went through all of that, I wouldn't trade 790 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: it for anything in the world world because now I'm 791 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,879 Speaker 1: at a point where I get to talk about it, 792 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: where I get to teach about it, and it is 793 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: quite possibly the best thing in the world for me. 794 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.