WEBVTT - Trump Wants to Cut Down Forests & Redistricting Battles 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:07.120 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.840 The Trump administration wants to get rid of a rule 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.840 that protects tens of millions of acres of national forest 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.760 from road building and large scale logging, forests that protect 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:28.600 endangered species, biodiversity, and watersheds used for drinking water from 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:33.080 Alaska to Puerto Rico. But scrapping the so called Roadless 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.919 Rule will face a reality check from litigation, government downsizing, 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.400 and even a soft timber market. Joining me is an 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:45.159 expert in environmental law, Pat Parento, a professor at the 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.680 Vermont Law and Graduate School. Pat, just what is the 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:50.960 Roadless Rule? 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:56.200 So this was a rule adopted during President Clinton's last 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:02.040 year in office, literally, and it relates to areas on 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.520 the National Forest which are one hundred and ninety three 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.240 million acres and it comprises about fifty eight thousand acres, 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:13.840 so it's about thirty percent of all the lands in 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.000 the National Forests. And these are areas that, as the 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.800 name implies, don't have roads. And the reason, by the way, 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.240 they don't have roads and haven't for over one hundred 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.720 years of Forest Service management, which has always emphasized logging. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.560 That's been the raison detra of the National forests for 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:36.600 almost its entire existence. 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:36.880 Right. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.800 The reason they're roadless is they're too expensive to build 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:47.160 and maintain roads in these remote areas, high elevation areas, 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.920 very difficult to access areas. If they were accessible, they 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.840 would have been logged long ago, because the Forest Service 0:01:54.880 --> 0:02:00.840 has been converting native forests wild forests to plantations, plantations 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:06.520 emphasizing commercially valuable species, eliminating everything else. So that's why 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.800 they're roadless, and that's why they've become such valuable for 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:16.359 many reasons wildlife and fisheries, conservation, endangered species, but also 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:23.160 water supply. These are intact watersheds I mean relatively intact, right, 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.160 that haven't been disturbed, that haven't been roaded, and therefore 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:31.720 the water coming off of that landscape has been filtered 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.000 by all of the trees and vegetation. A healthy forest, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.320 in other words, produces clean water. This is water you 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.880 can drink. I mean it's not recommended, you know, because 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.720 of you know, bacteria, but in terms of pollution, this 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.840 is water that you don't have to filter and treat extensively. 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.959 So these areas are valuable for all kinds of reasons, 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.399 you know, outdoor recreation, sure, fishing and hunting and all that, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.720 but also water supply. So that's what at stake here. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.240 Before I did research for this story, I thought that 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:09.040 the Forest Service was meant to preserve our forests, not 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.040 to produce timber. 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.440 Yeah, well, I mean their manage under what's called multiple use. 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:19.200 Some people would you know, say multiple abuse. But still 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.760 the law says there are five different values of the forest, 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:26.680 including as I mentioned, fish and wildlife, recreation, water supply, 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:29.799 and lumber. Of course, timber is one of the primary 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.639 reasons for managing national forests, and you know, we've had 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.520 laws that required the Forest Service to come up with 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.640 an annual quota of cuts. Whether or not the market 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.480 needed the amount of timber, the Forest Service was obligated 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.160 to put it on the market sell it for below 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.680 market value in many cases, and a lot of the 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.000 timber that came off national forests, particularly in the West, 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:57.760 particularly the old growth forests of the Pacific Northwest and Alaska, 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.760 they were cut for export. They weren't processed in the 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.840 United States. We were operating like a third world country 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:10.560 in terms of our national forests exporting really high value trees, 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.640 large diameter old growth trees, to send them to Japan, 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.919 send them to Korea, and have to Japan and Korea 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:24.360 process these into furniture in the musical instruments, pianos, even chapsticks, right, 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.840 and then sell them back to us. It was crazy 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.960 that we were letting other countries benefit from our forest resources. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.080 So that all came to an end. And Clinton was 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:39.960 certainly instrumental during the whole spot at Owl God Squad 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.560 proceedings and all of that background. Clinton was the one 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.600 who said, you know, we've got to retain the remainder 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.720 of our intact forest resources for all these reasons. And 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.960 so you know, we've turned the corner on how the 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.680 national forests are being managed for multiple uses, not just 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:02.560 timber production. But now, of course Trump wants to prioritize 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.480 what he's calling you a lumber emergency. Of course, I 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.920 don't know how many You've lost track of the number 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.560 of emergencies he's declared, but we've apparently got a timber 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:13.679 emergency as well. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:19.000 So the Agriculture Secretary Brook Rollins, who slammed the roadless 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.640 rule as absurd, said there's a timber emergency and they 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.960 have to get more logs on trucks to comply with 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.719 Trump's March order calling for expanded forest cutting to avoid 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:35.839 importing wood products and reduce wildfire threats. Is there a 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:36.960 timber emergency. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:43.520 No, there is certainly a demand for more timber from 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.360 the forest products industry, from the lumber companies because they 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.640 don't want to have to import lumber from Canada. We 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.040 do import a lot from Canada. I mean, Manada has 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.360 more forests than we do. And of course, now with 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.839 tariffs imposed by Trump on Canadian imports, the cost of 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.440 lumber from Canada is going to becoming more expensive, as 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:07.360 is everything else from coffee to eggs. Right, So that 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:11.240 is true. But the reason that there is a shortage 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.000 of timber production in the United States is for three reasons. 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.839 Number one, it is the labor shortage. Number two, it's 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.359 the mills that used to process timber have closed. And 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:28.680 number three is the supply chain for lumber products has 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.960 become more complicated, you know, the transportation of logs and trees, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.360 you know, between the United States and Canada has become 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:41.200 more complicated. So the reasons why the domestic production of 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.360 lumber has declined has nothing to do with an emergency. 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.960 We have plenty of timber and lumber. The question is 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.560 at what cost? And if you want to increase us 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.120 production of timber, the way to do that is to 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.200 create a market for it and then create the labor. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.760 And also, by the way, have an agency, namely the 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.919 Forest Service, with skilled silver culturists, the people that manage 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.920 the forest. And of course Trump is cutting those positions. 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:16.160 They've cut over two thousand Forest Service positions. When you 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.000 do that, you can't do the planning, the management, the 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.960 timber sales. So those are some of the reasons why 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:27.120 if there's a shortage of domestic lumber on the market. 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.880 The reasons are not because we're not logging old growth 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.920 and roadless areas. The reasons lie elsewhere. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:40.400 And what would be the impact of rescinding this roadless rule. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.400 By the way, we should say something about what the 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.160 roadless rule is and what it allows, because it addresses 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.840 specifically this business about we need to cut these trees 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.679 to manage wildfire. Right, So what the roadless rule allows 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.280 is thinning of forests fuel reduction, which means you know, 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:04.240 the small trees in the forest and prescribe burns. That's 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:08.120 number one. Number two roadless areas have been roadless for 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.440 over one hundred years, as I mentioned, and there hasn't 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.320 been any intensive logging because they're so expensive to build 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:20.320 and maintain. And the rule also reduces all of the litigation. 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:24.640 I've been involved in defending the roadless Rule full disclosure 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.680 back in two thousand and two in the Ninth Circuit 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:32.040 Court of Appeals, and since then there've been over a 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:35.920 dozen lawsuits. There's been all kinds of conflict in litigation 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.760 over these areas, and so one of the reasons for 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.280 the roadless rule is to say, well, let's put an 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.920 end to these endless lawsuits and conflict over these areas. 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.560 They're very popular with the public, that's why there's so 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.680 much controversy in litigation, and this roadless rule was designed 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.160 to put an end to that and get the Forest 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:59.480 Service to focus on those areas of the National Forest 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.400 where there is a history of commercial logging and you know, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.880 focus your efforts on increasing production if that's what we 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.679 nationally think we need to do in those areas that 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.280 are already roaded. And by the way, there are two 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:21.040 one hundred and sixty five thousand miles of forest roads 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.839 in the National Forest. Think about that. The entire interstate 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:29.400 highway system is forty seven thousand miles, So you can 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:32.720 do the math. You're talking about, you know, a huge 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:37.959 multiple of roads already in the National Forest, and guess 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:44.080 what the backlog of costs to either decommission as they say, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.400 these roads in other words, restore them to a natural environment, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.360 or just simply maintain them. The price tag for that 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:57.680 is over eight billion dollars in FY twenty twenty three. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.520 So you know, the Forest Service doesn't eat and begin 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.080 to have enough money to manage the roads they already 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.160 have to either maintain them or decommission them. Right, So 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:11.400 now you're talking about opening up all these new areas 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.760 to road building with all the expense of that and 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.600 the maintenance of that of those roads once they're built, 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.480 and then you're going to access these areas that haven't 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:24.280 been logged, haven't been commercially valuable enough to invest the 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.000 money to log them. That's what this order is talking about. 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:32.200 And the Forest Service is dealing with budget cuts and 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.920 staffing shortages, so it may have problems just keeping up 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:38.760 with the things it already has to do. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.560 Right, they don't have a budget. The budget they have 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.520 for managing wildfires is the largest segment of their budget. 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.240 It's over a billion dollars. Wildfires is definitely a problem. 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.520 There's lots of reasons for that. We could have a 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.280 whole program on it. Why there are so many wildfires, 0:10:55.360 --> 0:11:00.160 including of course climate change and global warming driven wildfires, 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.120 but lots of reasons why. Building in the areas close 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:07.120 to the forest interface is a reason for wildfires. But 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.240 here's the thing about roads. When you build more roads, 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.160 you're going to get more wildfires. The data is crystal 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:17.360 clear on that. Why. Guess why, Because people are driving 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.520 into these areas, these remote areas, and what are they doing. 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.520 They're building campfires, aren't they And what do they do 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.800 with campfires? Do they always always put them out? 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:26.199 No? 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:33.319 Ninety percent of wildfire ignition is human caused, ninety percent. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.840 That's the data. So you put roads into these areas, 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.600 you're going to get more wildfires. That's clear from our 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.960 history of dealing with wildfires, and the Forest Service would 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:44.480 tell you that. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.960 Yeah. Forest Service research published during the first Jump administration 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:55.520 show that more wildfires ignite near roads. Wildfire mitigation efforts 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.360 have been more common in roadless areas than in the 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.400 rest of the national forests. And roadless areas have no 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:06.199 effect on wildfire burn rates. Coming up next on the 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.680 Bloomberg Lawn Show, I'll continue this conversation with Professor Pat 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.480 Parento of the Vermont Law and Graduate School. We'll talk 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.400 about some of the litigation that can be expected if 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.880 the roadless Rule is rescinded. I'm June Grosso. When you're 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:25.440 listening to Bloomberg. The Trump administration wants to get rid 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.439 of a rule that protects tens of millions of acres 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.600 of national forest from road building and large scale logging, 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.080 but its zealed to log will face a reality check 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:41.480 from government downsizing, possible litigation, and even a soft timber market. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:46.559 The US Forest Service, which manages roadless areas, is grappling 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.400 with budget cuts and staffing shortages. At the same time, 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.480 environmental groups are gearing up for legal battles arguing the 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:59.640 so called roadless Rule safeguards endangered species, clean water, and 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.800 buy diversity. President Bill Clinton implemented the rule in the 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.920 final weeks of his term, envisioning it as a way 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:11.240 to protect endangered species and three hundred and fifty watersheds 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.040 within national forests used for drinking water. From Alaska to 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.560 Puerto Rico. Among the places the rule has preserved are 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:23.479 parts of the world's largest coastal temperate rainforest in Alaska's 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:28.400 Tongus National Forest, vast mountain ranges in central Idaho, the 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:33.760 peaks and plateaus above Utah's Contested Barriers National Monument, and 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:39.640 the Appalachian Forest in Virginia. But Agricultural Secretary Brook Rawlins 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:44.200 has slammed the roadless rule as absurd and declared a 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.560 timber emergency to get more logs on trucks and comply 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:53.080 with Trump's March order calling for expanded forest cutting to 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:57.880 avoid importing wood products and reduced wildfire threats. I've been 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.600 talking to Professor Pat Parento of the Law and Graduate School. 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.720 If they do rescind the rule, I mean, do you 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.920 think that nothing much would happen at the beginning because 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.360 the Forest Service doesn't have the money or the staff 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.319 to start building roads. 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.720 Well, first of all, I mean an attempt to repeal 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.280 this roadless rule that, as I said, there's been over 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.400 a dozen lawsuits. There'll be another one, several in fact, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:24.800 So the first thing you're going to have is another 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.080 round of litigation over repealing the rule, and that'll involve 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.320 the National Environmental Policy Act, the Endangered Species Act, the 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.840 Administrative Procedure Act, the whole panoply of federal law will 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.080 come into play, and it'll be litigated in many district 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.360 courts around the country. Because everybody's got a favorite for us, 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.800 they're going to defend to the death, not to the death, 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.000 but they're going to defend vigorously. Right, So we're going 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:50.920 to have a whole bunch of litigation over whether the 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.640 repeal of the roadless rule is legitimate. And I predict 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.280 they're going to be injunctions levied against the Forest Service 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.240 when they try to sell timber from these areas. And 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.800 then of course is the question of market so you know, 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.920 if the companies have to build these roads, I don't 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:07.920 think there's going to be very many of these areas 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.120 that will be logged. One of the biggest ones that's 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.000 been contentious is the Tongas National Forest in Alaska, and 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.960 that's been back and forth between it's either exempt from 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.640 the roadless rule or it's in the roadless rule. Currently 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.920 it is in the roadless rule. So there's certainly part 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.840 of the forests where the value of the timber in question. 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:31.120 These old growth large trees is sufficient enough that the 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.000 timber industry is going to want to fight over that 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.480 and try to get access to those areas. But in 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.400 terms of the fifty eight thousand acres around the country, 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:42.400 including forests in the east right here in our own Vermont, 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:46.240 the Green Mountain National Forests, or across the river in 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.240 nor Hampshire the White Mountain National Forests. You know, these 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.960 are areas that have roadless areas, and the timber in 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:57.480 those areas just isn't going to be economically feasible. It's 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.200 a log But some of these big western forest, yeah, 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.680 there's probably going to be significant fights to get access 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:05.560 to those areas. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.160 So you litigated this, as you mentioned. If they do 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.320 rescind the roadless rule, what would some of the challenges 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.080 be League. 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.560 One, Well, you know, the National Forest Management Act requires 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.080 that every forest have a plan, and because the roadless 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.640 Rule has been in effect, you know, it's gone through 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.840 as I say, different iterations, shall we say, as different 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:33.600 administrations come and go. You know, the Clinton administration, then 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.720 the Bush one administration, and then you had Bush two, 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.920 and so you know it's gone back and forth in 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.600 terms of the extent of the roadless rule and what 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.960 forests we're in and out. But right now all of 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.440 these areas are are protected as roadless and so the 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.120 National Forest Management Act will be one of the principal 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.560 laws because you have to comply with forest plans. And 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.120 if the forest plan says there's no logging in these 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.200 roadless areas, then there can't be any logging until you 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.080 change the forest plan. That would be step number one. Well, 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.520 to do that, you have to go through NEPA. You 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.679 have to do another environmental assessment at least, if not 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.000 an environmental impact statement. We've talked a lot about what's 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.280 happening with NEFA. And even though you know the Trump 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.800 administration is trying to limit the scope of NIPA and 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.080 the Supreme Court as well, it still exists. It's still 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.840 a law. It has to be complied with, and you 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:30.720 can't just snap your fingers and say we're going to 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.000 change a forest plan and we're going to write a 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.159 two page environmental impact statement to do it. That's going 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.440 to get challenged and overturned in court. Most of these 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.960 areas contain really important critical habitat of a number of 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:50.520 endangered species. Think Canada Links, think wolverine, Think grizzly bears. 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.119 Think marbl mural ass think spotted owls. I could go 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.679 on and on. These old girls, for uts are the 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:03.480 last stronghold of many of our most high profile in 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.280 endangered species, right, not just insects and butterflies, but you know, 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.160 animals that people really care about and will fight for. 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.920 So you know that's what you're looking at when you 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.679 go after these areas, You're going to involve a whole 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.680 splate of environmental laws, including, by the way, the Clean 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.480 Water Act. Because when you road these areas, rode them, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.400 build roads in them, they erode, right, and sediment comes off, 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.639 and sediment carries all kinds of other pollutants. If you 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.879 think about, you know, the way we fight fires, We 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.840 flood the landscape with not only pesticides, but herbicides and 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:44.160 other fire retardant chemicals that are toxic. And there's all 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.359 kinds of data about the fact that forests now have 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:52.679 all kinds of these chemicals saturated into the sediment of 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.520 these rivers coming out of the streams that are coming 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.480 off these national forests and again down into the water 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:03.680 supply systems for communities. So all kinds of laws come 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.840 into play when you go after these roadless areas. 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:12.200 The Agricultural Secretary made this announcement in June, and nothing's 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.240 been done yet where edging into late August. Is it 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.560 something that might just be put aside, although you also 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.159 have the fact that the so called Big Beautiful Bill 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.320 mandates that the Forest Service increased US timber sales by 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.560 two hundred and fifty million board feet each year through 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:37.280 twenty thirty four. That's an eight percent annual increase over 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:41.840 twenty twenty three and a roughly seventy five percent cumulative 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.840 spike in logging over the next nine years. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.280 Yeah. Well, you know, you can put those kinds of 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.399 goals out there, the same thing with how many people 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.520 were going to deport every year, And the truth is, 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.280 the reality is you're not going to meet those quotas, 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.000 the market isn't going to be there to meet those quotas, 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.359 or the amount of litigation I'm describing is going to 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.240 stretch out for years into whatever the next administration is 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.760 going to be. And as I've said, you know, this 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.679 roadless rule has been a bone of contention of political 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.920 football for over twenty years, well over almost twenty five years. 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.800 And so if it's not going to end. It's not 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.720 going to stop with the Trump administration. They're not going 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.360 to be able to road all these areas and get 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.359 all the timber out of these areas. It's just not 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.280 going to happen until there's another administration in power, maybe 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.600 a different Congress in power. Who knows. But the point is, 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.800 we don't know what the future of these areas are. 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:46.000 Just because the Agriculture Secretary is making these sweeping pronouncements 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:47.600 doesn't mean it's going to happen. 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.000 Looking at this broader and as far as what steps 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.159 the Trump administration has taken so far with regard to 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:59.080 the environment, are they focusing on one area in particular 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:00.720 or broader than that. 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.720 We thought the focus was going to be climate and energy, 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.879 and of course it certainly has been. But frankly, from 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.560 what I see, it's across the board. There is no 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.000 law that's safe from this administration, no environmental law, and 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:15.600 you could broaden it beyond that the civil rights laws. 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:19.720 But certainly, from my expertise, I've never seen anything like this. 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.159 I've been doing this for fifty five years. I've seen conservative, 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.240 you know, Republican administrations come and go, including the Reagan administration, 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.520 and James Watt. I've never seen anything like this. They're 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:36.160 leaving no stone unturned to deregulate and cripple the ability 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:40.439 of federal agencies across the board to manage either public 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:44.040 lands as we're talking about today, or public health with EPA, 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.199 or energy supply with the Department of Energy. Nothing that 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:54.879 this administration is doing is designed to strengthen programs that 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:59.280 we have had now for many decades, to manage natural resources, 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.600 manage our energy supply and energy demand, to you know, 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:08.560 create affordable sources of either timber as we're talking about today, 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.720 or energy if we wanted to talk about that. The 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:18.520 market and the technology is pointing towards cleaner, greener systems 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.240 of producing whatever goods and services we need. This administration 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.760 is rolling the clock back across the board. 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:30.200 That's what I see, and that usually means even more litigation. 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.240 Thanks so much for joining me today, Pat, that's professor 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:36.200 Pat Parento of the Vermont Law and Graduate School. 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:42.520 This is what democracy look side. This is what democracy 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:43.280 looks side. 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:47.960 There were redistricting rallies in Chicago, Illinois, and Austin, Texas 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:53.040 over the weekend. Protests against Texas Republicans Plan to redraw 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:57.600 the state's congressional maps to create five new Republican seats, 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:01.760 and in support of Texas Democrat who disrupted a special 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:06.240 session in the legislature and fled to Chicago to oppose 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:11.000 the unusual mid decade registricting called for by President Trump. 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:13.760 It's important for us to show up because we kind 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:14.840 of started this battle. 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.119 I guess trying to wake America up. Everybody needs to 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.760 know what's happening. Everyone needs to see what we're fighting for. 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:26.560 Texas Democrats ran out the clock in the special legislative session, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.440 but two hours later Governor Greg Abbott called a second 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:34.800 session to redraw the maps, which would target key districts 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:37.080 represented by Latino Democrats. 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:42.440 We hold a lot more bullets in our belt that 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:44.399 we will be ready to use if we need to. 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:49.200 So after two weeks, the Democratic lawmakers returned to Texas 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:52.200 and say the next fight will be in the courts, 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:56.560 where they will challenge the new maps as being racially gerrymandered. 0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:01.600 Onny Blair is with the Texas ACLU. Governor Abbott and 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:06.240 Attorney General Ken Paxton are following the President's agenda to 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:10.159 dilute the electoral power of black and Brown Texans. The 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:14.600 redistricting standoff has led to a national fight for control 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.800 of Congress ahead of the twenty twenty six midterms, and today, 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:23.800 as Texas Republicans restarted the plan to give themselves five 0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:28.800 more seats, California Democrats took their first official steps to 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:32.800 create five new House seats for their party by adopting 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:36.399 a measure asking voters to approve new boundaries for twenty 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:40.679 twenty six, twenty twenty eight, and twenty thirty, an aggressive 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:44.160 move maneuvered by California Governor Gavin Newsom. 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:45.760 It's not complicated. 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:48.320 We're doing this in reaction to a president of United 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:51.000 States that called a sitting governor of the state of 0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:54.480 Texas and said, find me five seats. My guest is 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:58.959 elections law expert Richard Brefalt, a professor at Columbia Law School. 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:03.560 Rich does seem like there are any other impediments to 0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:06.800 Texas Republicans passing the new maps. 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:09.800 I mean, I think that after it gets enacted, they'll 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:12.119