Speaker 1: In order to make change, you have to close the
Speaker 1: gap between your perception of reality and what's really happening,
Speaker 1: because only then can you take action that affects real life.
Speaker 2: Today, we welcome Corey Allen to the show. Corey is
Speaker 2: an author, podcast host, and social media influencer from Austin, Texas.
Speaker 2: Corey writes daily thoughts on mindfulness and mental clarity for
Speaker 2: his large Instagram following and I mean really large, reaching
Speaker 2: over a million people a week. On his podcast, he
Speaker 2: discusses how to live better through teachings on mindfulness, mental clarity,
Speaker 2: and personal growth. Corey's new book, Brave New You, a
Speaker 2: roadmap to believing that More as Possible, is out now,
Speaker 2: and is the focus of our playful and informative conversation.
Speaker 2: Corey Alan, Welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 3: Sound just like me, dude.
Speaker 2: Your voice is amazing.
Speaker 3: Thanks, it's amazing. Someone tells me that every.
Speaker 2: Day now, does it get well if it's lower, like
Speaker 2: it's lower since we talked last years ago.
Speaker 3: Or no, I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean it might be because it's you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm forty two now, so I'm aging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, this is the first time I met you
Speaker 2: in person. Yeah, it's an honor pleasure. It's been really
Speaker 2: great seeing you grow over the years as well. Like,
Speaker 2: you know, I see you on like Instagram, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: like a triple take, Like what happened to that motherfucker? Look?
Speaker 3: Is so glad.
Speaker 2: Great to have you here. And I really enjoyed your
Speaker 2: most recent book, which is called Brave New You a
Speaker 2: road Map to Believing that More is Possible. There's so
Speaker 2: much in here. It's I mean it's like a kind
Speaker 2: of like the ultimate self help book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you covered like everything I tried to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're like, tell me about the journey to get
Speaker 2: to writing this book. How many years have you been
Speaker 2: working on it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Just give me the journey?
Speaker 1: Yeah man, I mean so basically that's kind of the
Speaker 1: wager is like they say you shouldn't try to make
Speaker 1: a book that covers everything, but you know, it's like,
Speaker 1: we'll never know if it's possible if you don't try.
Speaker 1: And really like what I started doing, and this is
Speaker 1: interesting because I I wanted to figure out, you know,
Speaker 1: being a school a fan of perception like you are,
Speaker 1: and studying your own consciousness, I started thinking like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think that I know what would be helpful to people? Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not true, Like whatever, my perception of what's going
Speaker 1: to be useful to people is just the narrative in
Speaker 1: my brain about like how I see reality or.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like a lot of people reject when
Speaker 2: they try to think what would be good for someone
Speaker 2: else everyone? Do you see that in the self help
Speaker 2: space as well? Oh yeah, talk about that's a callback
Speaker 2: to and off the record conversation.
Speaker 1: You know, no names will be but one of your
Speaker 1: favorite writers it talks about letting go is obsessed with money,
Speaker 1: one of your favorite podcasters has a difficult time having
Speaker 1: conversations with people close to them, and another one of
Speaker 1: your favorite people that talks about mindfulness loves alcohol. It's all,
Speaker 1: it's almost always the counterpointal weight.
Speaker 2: To the defense mechanims.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1: How why relationship coaches are single a lot of times?
Speaker 3: A great point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was trying. I was I thought, like,
Speaker 1: how can I get objective information and feedback on like
Speaker 1: what what people in the world, you know, want to
Speaker 1: experience and what they need, Because it's very difficult whenever
Speaker 1: you have experienced like a school of thought or a
Speaker 1: set of experiences that have brought some insider wisdom to
Speaker 1: you to think about what your life was like before
Speaker 1: you had those experiences. So after you've had them, you know,
Speaker 1: everything seems apparent, but to really rewind your perception. It's
Speaker 1: like for you, like in meditation or something, the first
Speaker 1: time that you became aware that you had thoughts like
Speaker 1: flowing through your mind and your observational met of mind
Speaker 1: sort of turned on. And then from that point on
Speaker 1: you've gone through life being aware of the arising mental
Speaker 1: formations in your mind and you can notice what thoughts.
Speaker 1: But think trying to get your perception back to what
Speaker 1: that was like before that, it's wild, right, right? So
Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, how can I access sort of
Speaker 1: that texture of mind and figure out what those people
Speaker 1: might need. So what I started doing as my social
Speaker 1: media falling, like kept growing and growing, getting to half
Speaker 1: a million and reaching a million people a week amazing,
Speaker 1: thank you, is I started paying really close attention to
Speaker 1: everything that I posted, the comments that people were leaving,
Speaker 1: the reactions that people were having, even like the kind
Speaker 1: of insight impressions and data impressions like what's grabbing p people,
Speaker 1: who's sharing things?
Speaker 3: How much?
Speaker 1: What's the and I took a lot of notes, like
Speaker 1: a ton to look at like what is like en mass,
Speaker 1: what is the cultural need here? Like what is the
Speaker 1: real reaction the reaction that people may not even be
Speaker 1: realizing they're giving me because they're just responding to this
Speaker 1: thing they're reading. But if you zoom out and look
Speaker 1: at it all, it's like what is in the culture,
Speaker 1: Like what do we need?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: And So I took all these notes over the course
Speaker 1: of probably like a year, and I also use that
Speaker 1: information to then start writing to those points in my
Speaker 1: social media, which is why it keeps growing is because
Speaker 1: I'm figuring. I figured out, like, if you listen in
Speaker 1: this interesting way, then you can actually speak to what
Speaker 1: is needed right now in the times?
Speaker 2: Don't marketers call that pain points?
Speaker 3: Yeah? It is.
Speaker 1: And those are generally yeah, and those are I think
Speaker 1: those are kind of they tend to seek like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, almost sort of like manufactured. They look like money, sex, status, sounds.
Speaker 2: Good, I mean, I mean, I'm not supposed to say
Speaker 2: that seeking in life.
Speaker 1: Hey, You're supposed to be seeking whatever the fuck you
Speaker 1: want to be seeking.
Speaker 3: Good, That's what I think.
Speaker 1: So so I looked at all these and nomen does
Speaker 1: sound good?
Speaker 3: Why why? What's wrong with that? Seriously?
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: It's not about it's not I mean, we don't want
Speaker 1: to go on too many tangents here, but like you know, money, sex,
Speaker 1: and status are they're great. There's a reason why people
Speaker 1: go after them. The key is not the thing. The
Speaker 1: key is how you relate to those things once you
Speaker 1: achieve them.
Speaker 3: That's huge.
Speaker 1: You know, how does it change how you see the world,
Speaker 1: how you operate, what you do with it? Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I took all this information and I looked at like
Speaker 1: what would be a linear path, Like how can I
Speaker 1: create this entry point and get to someone to basically
Speaker 1: feeling how I feel in the world. And that's what
Speaker 1: the book is. It's like doing this mental house cleaning
Speaker 1: for the beginning of getting people aware, turning on the
Speaker 1: awareness of their thoughts, and they're you know, self understanding
Speaker 1: because of course that's the beginning of everything. You have
Speaker 1: to become self aware to make any change, you know,
Speaker 1: and then it just all goes and goes through there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why turtles don't make too many changes in
Speaker 2: their lives. They're so on autopilot over there, you know.
Speaker 2: So I I love that you start with that and
Speaker 2: you talk about how mindsets are magic, and you know,
Speaker 2: because I'm like a big mindset a guy like I
Speaker 2: really believe in them. And we're in a new book
Speaker 2: right now that has is all about a particular mindset
Speaker 2: I think we really desperately need in our society. But
Speaker 2: can you tell me what you mean by the word
Speaker 2: mindset and also what you mean by magic?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 1: So sure, So a mindset is the how you're approaching
Speaker 1: the world, right, It's the frame of mind, the perspective
Speaker 1: and which yeah, sure, a lens, Yeah, and it's a lens.
Speaker 1: I think if we use lens, this is a metaphor.
Speaker 1: We should look at you and remember that what's in
Speaker 1: front of the lens is just as important as what's
Speaker 1: behind the lens. Both of those things working together create
Speaker 1: the picture that's in focus, you know. And so snip
Speaker 1: that quote.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 1: And so uh yeah, like so that's really where it is.
Speaker 1: So example, if you are and here's where the magic
Speaker 1: comes in. Let's just use myself. For example, if I'm
Speaker 1: walking into this to meet with you in the studio
Speaker 1: and do this recording, and I'm feeling anxious and like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like, how am I going to do?
Speaker 3: I hope I show up.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to come in here with this mindset
Speaker 1: of anxiety, of discomfort, And what it's going to do
Speaker 1: is it's going to then have a physiog physiological effect.
Speaker 1: It's going to you know, release you know, adrenaline. If
Speaker 1: I hadn't left in my body, it would release that.
Speaker 1: It's going to change my heart rate, it's going to
Speaker 1: change my my you know, my mental processing and all
Speaker 1: this stuff. And it's not going to go well. But
Speaker 1: if you walk in and you're like, hey, this is good,
Speaker 1: this is friendly. They asked me to be here. I
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be and you know who you are.
Speaker 1: You know who you are, and like, this is gonna
Speaker 1: be fucking fun. You know that's bekaa.
Speaker 3: How could not be time? That's right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And so you walk in and then you go like,
Speaker 1: all right, let's have some fun here. Then the not
Speaker 1: only does and this is where the magic happens, is
Speaker 1: that it changes not only how you feel and how
Speaker 1: you show up in your life, but then it changes
Speaker 1: how we experience this moment together totally. Because if I
Speaker 1: was in here and I was timid and like awkward
Speaker 1: and anxious. You would be like trying to reach for it.
Speaker 1: But the second I walked in, we started laughing and
Speaker 1: having a good time. Right, So that's just that didn't
Speaker 1: happen to me. But I'm using that as an example
Speaker 1: of how that unfolds. But a person can look at
Speaker 1: that and map it over to any point in their life.
Speaker 1: They're going on an interview. You walk in and you're like,
Speaker 1: I hope that they like me?
Speaker 3: Is the wrong mindset?
Speaker 1: You walk in you're interviewing them to make sure that
Speaker 1: they're worth your time because you're spending forty hours a
Speaker 1: week at some job. It's like, do I want to
Speaker 1: do they have what it takes for me to do this?
Speaker 1: You know, relationships, what you know, your creativity, whatever it
Speaker 1: is that you want to be doing. It's like changing
Speaker 1: those mindsets. Slowing down, being conscious and mindful of the
Speaker 1: story you're telling yourself and the narrative that you're creating
Speaker 1: in your mind at any given moment is how you
Speaker 1: totally make that magic come to life and shift everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in an authentic way. Yeah, I think sometimes
Speaker 2: you can just not be really feeling it and then
Speaker 2: like you adopt a mindset doesn't really feel right, and
Speaker 2: maybe there's you know, maybe there are times where it's okay,
Speaker 2: like you're to not put on a certain mindset, and
Speaker 2: maybe that'd be the the unauthentic thing to do.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm just r.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would be an example of that for you?
Speaker 2: You know? Sometimes if I am really nervous and I
Speaker 2: have to give a keynote instead of like forcing myself
Speaker 2: to have like just be positive mindset, I get out
Speaker 2: on stage and I go, I am fucking nervous right now.
Speaker 3: Do you vocalize it to the audience thousand percent?
Speaker 2: Well, that relaxes me, relax to the audience, and usually
Speaker 2: I'm fine after that. Sometimes I just have to say it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Sometimes I just have to not just say it, but
Speaker 2: work through it and embody and breathe it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Sometimes like the authentic experience is fine. There's nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with being nervous. There's nothing wrong, you know, there's you know,
Speaker 2: I'm just arguing against toxic positivity. I love this, and
Speaker 2: I know you're not about toxic positivity.
Speaker 1: No, No, this is great. It was It's a really
Speaker 1: good point. It's like I think that, you know, with
Speaker 1: any of the stuff you can keep going upstream, you know,
Speaker 1: And I think that's what you're talking about, is it's
Speaker 1: like your mindset wasn't to go like, what's the what's
Speaker 1: the issue? The issue would be you going on stage
Speaker 1: and being nervous. So instead of like, instead of looking
Speaker 1: at the issue and changing that, let's go upstream and
Speaker 1: let's say, let's change your mindset to one that we
Speaker 1: can work with this instead of being overwhelmed with this.
Speaker 1: And your method of doing that is just openness and
Speaker 1: connecting to the audience through through that, which is beautiful.
Speaker 2: Connection is like that's where it's at, right, Like, I
Speaker 2: find that's the answer to everything, you know, even like
Speaker 2: I mean everything I can't think of exception. Connection didn't
Speaker 2: relax me. You know, activating the calm and connect system
Speaker 2: of the brain is much much better than activating the
Speaker 2: flight and flight and flee and the other f yeah,
Speaker 2: fornicate the three yes, yes, yes, Okay. So you talk
Speaker 2: about I mean a lot of a lot of this book.
Speaker 2: You do talk about conscious consciousness, a state of consciousness.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's really a big part of it. And
Speaker 2: you talk about really getting as clear a mind as possible.
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that, I know what. Like
Speaker 2: we had Shane Parish on recently, you talked about clear thinking.
Speaker 3: What how do you like?
Speaker 2: What do you mean by it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Clarity is to me, it is being able to see
Speaker 1: and be aware of the thoughts that you're having in
Speaker 1: your mind.
Speaker 2: Self awareness.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So a lot of people that you know, I know,
Speaker 1: you're you have a decent amount of Eastern you know
Speaker 1: thought in your background as far as things that you're right,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we've talked about.
Speaker 3: That in the point too. I do. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so for me, you know, noticing I feel seen,
Speaker 2: I tried and transcend to integrate Eastern thank.
Speaker 1: You beautiful, beautiful. Yeah. But you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: that stuff is poorly translated if you read like commentaries
Speaker 1: as a polycnon or something, and the memes of those
Speaker 1: buzzwords that have made it into popular culture often are
Speaker 1: very far away from what the actual original meaning was,
Speaker 1: and they kind of taken on their own thing, and
Speaker 1: that causes confusion because everyone's sort of like abstracting this
Speaker 1: idea of whatever this meaning is. So a clear mind
Speaker 1: is generally one that I have found is really confusing
Speaker 1: for people because they go a clear mind that clear.
Speaker 1: In Western language, that means empty. Empty means nothing, nothing
Speaker 1: means mind, no mind, I should have an empty mind.
Speaker 1: Like that's I can't do that, like one of these.
Speaker 1: So then again, since the Western culture is based on
Speaker 1: like status and achieving, then they go, I can't do that.
Speaker 1: I'm failing. I feel bad. I'm a terrible person, I'm
Speaker 1: a loveable my parents hate me, et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 1: and it goes down. Yeah, yeah, and so, and of
Speaker 1: course it's.
Speaker 3: Not that bad.
Speaker 1: I'm just joking being hyperbolic for comedy sake, But you know.
Speaker 2: I live in that space of hyperbolic for comedy. That's like,
Speaker 2: that's my like momentary experience of being me.
Speaker 1: Well we're long lost friends there. So so clear mind
Speaker 1: is really it's it's having clarity to see your mind.
Speaker 2: I see.
Speaker 3: So whenever you.
Speaker 1: Recognize what thoughts are arising, noticing them, having some space
Speaker 1: around them, and being able to make int internal choices
Speaker 1: in the moment around what you're observing.
Speaker 2: How much does that require changing sort of stories that
Speaker 2: you have in your head about who you are and
Speaker 2: your place in the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's huge.
Speaker 1: I mean I think that I mean to me I
Speaker 1: think that letting go of that as much as possible
Speaker 1: is really valuable because.
Speaker 2: Letting go of all the stories.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, perhaps.
Speaker 2: Can I keep the one where I'm a hero?
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the stories about perhaps the present are good
Speaker 1: to let go of. I like to let go of those. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the stories that have hardened over the past can be useful.
Speaker 1: It's a very least for just kind of reflective purposes.
Speaker 1: But even those, I like to keep them soft.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: This is one of the things I've found through kind
Speaker 1: of I know it sounds weird, but studying people line,
Speaker 1: like studying the kind of the texture of culture online,
Speaker 1: what people are talking about, what they're responding to, the
Speaker 1: biggest problem, the biggest thing I've seen people vocalize is
Speaker 1: that they feel like they have this kind of concept,
Speaker 1: this feeling of like God, I could just I could
Speaker 1: improve my life, I could do this thing. It's right there,
Speaker 1: but there's this little barrier. They just can't break through
Speaker 1: this barrier. Everyone feels like that success is like right
Speaker 1: out of touch, you know. And I started thinking about
Speaker 1: like what is that, Like, what is that?
Speaker 3: What is that thing?
Speaker 1: And I think it's it kind of goes back to
Speaker 1: some of the mindset stuff, but really is it's the story,
Speaker 1: and it's that we get used to what we're experiencing
Speaker 1: in life because everything is normalized for so long that
Speaker 1: we begin to accept that for what in quotes what is,
Speaker 1: and we don't we're not really care of stopping and
Speaker 1: breaking that story and realizing, like, the possibilities of my
Speaker 1: existence are way greater the truly anything that I want
Speaker 1: them to be. But it's that I've gotten used to
Speaker 1: seeing this as the limit, seeing this is like what
Speaker 1: I'm capable of or or what's available to me in
Speaker 1: life even and the normalization of that it comes over
Speaker 1: your entire life, and that's why it's so hard to
Speaker 1: break out of you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, I mean, how did you break out of it?
Speaker 1: It's a constant process. And really again that's why at
Speaker 1: the beginning of this podcast I was talking about the
Speaker 1: book is like I want people to kind of be
Speaker 1: able to experience the same mindset shift that I did.
Speaker 1: And that's really ultimately that's the story that's told in
Speaker 1: the book. Even though I don't relate it to me,
Speaker 1: I relate it to the person reading because I want
Speaker 1: to be about.
Speaker 3: Them not about me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's you know, it's a lot of trial
Speaker 1: and error.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of.
Speaker 1: In my case, like having a you know, dysfunctional emotional
Speaker 1: background made me very self sufficient and hyper independent. Whenever
Speaker 1: I was very young. You know, I did start this
Speaker 1: sort of not to get too off track here, but
Speaker 1: I did start like playing with reality from a very
Speaker 1: young age.
Speaker 3: For some reason.
Speaker 1: I started, like, for example, whenever I first as a
Speaker 1: little kid, started sensing that Santa Claus was like something
Speaker 1: was weird. I told my mom, I was like, I
Speaker 1: want to go to talk to Santa at the mall.
Speaker 1: So I did a little a B testing, so I
Speaker 1: went up there, and then I said I'll go talk
Speaker 1: to him by myself. So I went to the mall Santa,
Speaker 1: and I told him I wanted one thing for Christmas.
Speaker 1: And then when I was done, I went out and
Speaker 1: my mom was there and she's like, what did you
Speaker 1: tell Sandy wanted? I told her a different thing, and
Speaker 1: I was like, we'll see it. Wait, see what shows
Speaker 1: a scientists. Yeah, and of course we can all guess
Speaker 1: which one showed up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing you told Sannah, Yeah exactly, that Sannah
Speaker 2: is real?
Speaker 3: Right, what happened, right, Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, so you know, for me, it was
Speaker 1: a lot of just I think recognizing that reality is
Speaker 1: really like what you make of it. You know that
Speaker 1: things aren't going to magically just turn around, but you
Speaker 1: have to start listening to what you were feeling, what
Speaker 1: what are you drawn towards as opposed to what you're
Speaker 1: trying to force in life. You know, it's like, so
Speaker 1: if you're like I want to you get very empathetic.
Speaker 1: I'm not used to people that are so empathetic.
Speaker 2: And why you're just hanging out with the bros all day?
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, maybe, I guess so you're Yeah, you're very,
Speaker 1: very very sweet guy.
Speaker 2: So I can't help it.
Speaker 1: Sweet Verry Kaufman over here.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's sweet better Kaufman over here.
Speaker 1: That's going to be the name of your soul concept.
Speaker 3: Love it. I love it.
Speaker 2: That's literally going to be my new name started starting
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: It also changes the barrier to b e r ry.
Speaker 1: You start going like, okay, well, what's like, what's some
Speaker 1: one thing I could change?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Is it trying to be more well kempt is like
Speaker 1: trying to be like, well, me let me dress better,
Speaker 1: let me be a little bit cosmetically. You know, let's
Speaker 1: get a facial routine going on here, let's do something.
Speaker 1: You do one thing like that, And what that does
Speaker 1: is it starts to build meaning and purpose because you've
Speaker 1: seen something, You've identified something that's going to make you
Speaker 1: feel better or that you can achieve. That's a small win.
Speaker 1: It's actually something I talk about in the books is
Speaker 1: making setting attainable goals. You set something small, you attain it.
Speaker 1: And this is how we create meaning in life is
Speaker 1: you find something meaningful to you that in that sense
Speaker 1: of like, let me try and do this. You achieve
Speaker 1: this small goal. You notice how, even in a tiny way,
Speaker 1: it's made your life better, and not only does that
Speaker 1: show you that moving forward is possible in life, but
Speaker 1: also old self confidence by going like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I accomplish that, and then you know, this is kind
Speaker 1: of where I get to at the end of the book.
Speaker 1: The more that you do that, the more that you
Speaker 1: are able to trust your intuition instinct and that's the
Speaker 1: root of everything. And then you go, hmm, that little
Speaker 1: voice inside, that intuitive feeling. I listened to that and
Speaker 1: it did improve. It was right I can trust it now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that creates a feedback loop over weeks, months, years,
Speaker 1: and decades.
Speaker 2: You're not advocating being delusional, putting on just put on
Speaker 2: a delusional mindset, you know, actually make real changes to
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And there's another thing I dislike more than delusion.
Speaker 2: Awesome, right on.
Speaker 1: Three poisons, man, anger, desire, and delusion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I think the desire one is an interesting one because
Speaker 2: I think the desire, you know, I wouldn't get out
Speaker 2: of bed in the morning, in the in the morning
Speaker 2: if I didn't have desires to make the world a
Speaker 2: better place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but surely you understand that that's the mistranslation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're talking about more like attachments.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's like so, but also, wholesome desires are good
Speaker 1: if you read the canon, like poly canon, like the
Speaker 1: buddh would say, you know, like wholesome goals and desires
Speaker 1: and wants, like that's that's great because you're cultivating more,
Speaker 1: you know, skillfulness in your life. But it's the desires
Speaker 1: which keep you ultimately more diluted, intermoved from presence, and
Speaker 1: that wholesomeness and skillfulness is or what's bad not because
Speaker 1: they're morally bad. It's like that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that like living in a in a western, you know,
Speaker 1: religious society, we apply this like weird Christian morality to
Speaker 1: everything in Eastern thought. But really it's like, no, it's
Speaker 1: like not if they say, you know, desire to drink
Speaker 1: a bottle of urban every night, which I have, you know,
Speaker 1: I have that desire, They're like they're like, that's not
Speaker 1: bad morally, it's just bad because it's not going to
Speaker 1: get you further to a place of feeling good and
Speaker 1: ultimately free of suffering.
Speaker 2: Sure, I know that's what Buddhist would say.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing. Here's the thing.
Speaker 2: And I have a great, well, a good friend of
Speaker 2: mine who's also his name is Corey.
Speaker 3: And I talked to him yesterday. Yeah you know Corey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's one of my best friends. And he's going
Speaker 2: to be in my show next week.
Speaker 3: Is he coming here. We're gonna do a virtual okay.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, because I I challenge him on some things
Speaker 2: and so we're gonna just hash it out next week.
Speaker 2: Don't get me started on the Buddhist stuff, because I
Speaker 2: feel like a lot of people talk as though like, well,
Speaker 2: if the Buddhas said.
Speaker 3: It, you can't challenge it.
Speaker 2: And I'm just I'm the kind of person that, like,
Speaker 2: you can't say that about anything, like if it's a cult,
Speaker 2: it's a religion, I don't give fuck.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like if you're a person, then you got
Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, you know, it's well the Buddha would say,
Speaker 1: he would say, challenge, challenge me, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And and and I am Buddhist.
Speaker 3: I follow the path of the Buddha.
Speaker 1: So this is my This is what's funny is like
Speaker 1: I've studied Buddhism for twenty years. I'm obsessed with I've
Speaker 1: read read the you know, like a bazillion translations of
Speaker 1: poly cannon I, Patika, all all the things, right, but
Speaker 1: I'm still not a Buddhist. I don't identify as one.
Speaker 1: But I find it all very fascinating and useful and
Speaker 1: I apply a lot of it to my my kind
Speaker 1: of tool kit in life. But the problem is is
Speaker 1: that in the forl Noble Truths Number one is what
Speaker 1: I can't get on board with, you know, where it's
Speaker 1: it's like it's basically like or I mean, in the
Speaker 1: Eightful Paths. So like the for Noble truths. Yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: like life is suffering, desire causes suffering. There's a way
Speaker 1: out of suffering, and number four is the eight full
Speaker 1: Path is the way. So the eight full Path great.
Speaker 1: I love seven of the folds of the path. But
Speaker 1: number one, where it's like basically except that reincarnation is real,
Speaker 1: is the one where I'm like, sorry, I can't do it.
Speaker 2: And you're allowed to say that and still be Buddhist. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, like, I don't think you should have to
Speaker 2: agree with every single thing that a spiritual leader says
Speaker 2: in order to respect that spiritual leader or to follow
Speaker 2: them for the most part. Yeah, well thanks for saying
Speaker 2: that for sure. Thanks for inmitting that. I get hung
Speaker 2: up on the desires one. But I want to move
Speaker 2: on because you have so much cool stuff in.
Speaker 1: Your book and I'm excited to listen to the conversation
Speaker 1: with you and the what.
Speaker 2: About free will we're going to talk about. We disagree
Speaker 2: on the free will issue. We disagree on a lot
Speaker 2: of things, which is so interesting considering I just love
Speaker 2: his way of being and the way he lives his life.
Speaker 2: But it's funny how I still like disagree with some stuff.
Speaker 3: So totally so and that's that's good.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's free will of the conversation that everyone
Speaker 1: wants to hear but no one wants to listen to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's very true. That's very true. Okay, so
Speaker 2: this one's really interesting. In your book, you're talking about
Speaker 2: how you can hurry up to slow down. No, that's
Speaker 2: not it. That's not it. I fucked it up. You
Speaker 2: can be quick. You talking about how you can be
Speaker 2: quick hurry up? No, you do say be quick to
Speaker 2: slow down your action. I wasn't slow enough.
Speaker 1: Now there's a real if I ever saw one, just
Speaker 1: you reading that, put that on Instagram, your golden man.
Speaker 2: This is no funny episode?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Good? Are they normally not funny? They are?
Speaker 1: Actually I was gonna say, how could they not be?
Speaker 3: They usually no?
Speaker 2: But this is fun.
Speaker 1: Use words like hoot. I mean, that's just that's a
Speaker 1: good start.
Speaker 2: And also, with a freaking twenty and fifty milligram chill
Speaker 2: pill sitting on me, how can you not be?
Speaker 3: You know what is? This is why?
Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons I'm happy to come
Speaker 1: to New York and do this with you, because you
Speaker 1: don't get this same energy.
Speaker 3: And as a computer.
Speaker 2: No, you really don't you know.
Speaker 1: You gotta we gotta are more for genetic field. It's
Speaker 1: gotta gotta get entangled.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: So let me try this again. So you talk about
Speaker 2: you're talking about you that you have to be quick
Speaker 2: to hold down your reactions. What do you mean by that, Corey,
Speaker 2: what do you mean it's tripping me up?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So quick to slow down my reactions?
Speaker 3: Matrix.
Speaker 1: It is a matrix. Yeah, yeah, and it's sort of
Speaker 1: it's working. Like the fact that you're stopping to think
Speaker 1: about it means that it's working. He's so empathetic, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: I need, like, I need to film that if you
Speaker 1: meet people that are not the same level of kindness
Speaker 1: and genuineness, I need to film you doing that and
Speaker 1: just keep it on my phones every one so I
Speaker 1: can pull it up and just have you been like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that feels good.
Speaker 2: I am a coach.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just gonna have some weird, like fetish coaching
Speaker 1: session with you where you just do that to me.
Speaker 2: You just validating, validating except me for an hour strength.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 3: I could use that too.
Speaker 1: We'll do a validating sixty.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so being quick to slow down your reactions
Speaker 1: is basically it's really helpful in any aspect of your life,
Speaker 1: you know. And what I'm talking about is that we
Speaker 1: unconsciously react to pretty much everything. Like as you're talking,
Speaker 1: I'm reacting to what you're saying. Sure, I'm reacting to
Speaker 1: I'm feeling. As I'm in the subway, I'm reacting to
Speaker 1: the other people around me, to the noise of things.
Speaker 1: I'm reacting to my own thoughts about stuff. If I
Speaker 1: read an email and there's something, you know, it's a problem,
Speaker 1: I would react. I'd feel irritated, I'd feel stressed, i
Speaker 1: would feel like I had to do something. So every
Speaker 1: you know, in the kind of the landscape of our
Speaker 1: experience and in our minds, every thought, ultimately that arises
Speaker 1: we will react to because of our you know, like
Speaker 1: basically the analystic part of our brain and our evolutionary psychology.
Speaker 1: It's like, respond to the situation. You need to respond
Speaker 1: to nature. You have to respond to your environment, because
Speaker 1: that could be the response could be nothing, it could
Speaker 1: be getting out of the way of a jaguar, it
Speaker 1: could be whatever. So, you know, if we look at
Speaker 1: the ecosystem of life that people are in now, people
Speaker 1: are scrolling on a phone's they're whatever. So everything they're seeing,
Speaker 1: they're reacting emotionally and intellectually in some way large or small.
Speaker 1: And so this notion of not reacting is breaking this
Speaker 1: chain of patterned reactions that we have in our lives,
Speaker 1: being able to put space in the present moment around
Speaker 1: those so that with the goal of becoming more intentional
Speaker 1: in your experience as opposed to being mindless and just reacting.
Speaker 1: So someone says something to you that irritates you, rather
Speaker 1: than just reacting mindlessly and saying something mean back or
Speaker 1: saying something defensive. And then maybe later you think about
Speaker 1: that moment, you post event process, and you feel bad
Speaker 1: about it, or you feel vindicated or.
Speaker 3: Egoic or whatever.
Speaker 1: In the moment, you recognize what's happening, and instead of reacting,
Speaker 1: you notice, and this gets better and better. We could
Speaker 1: go through the minutia of this if you want. But
Speaker 1: you notice the reaction arising, the feeling, the urge of
Speaker 1: the body and the mind trying to serve the impulse.
Speaker 1: You pause and create the space, and then in the
Speaker 1: present moment intentionally choose to act differently. What you're doing
Speaker 1: is disrupting the pattern of your behavior and allowing yourself
Speaker 1: to slowly intentionally become someone new, more of the person
Speaker 1: that you want to be in that present moment. So
Speaker 1: if someone says something to you that's harmful, instead of saying,
Speaker 1: you know, go fuck yourself, that obviously is bad for you.
Speaker 1: It's bad for them, it's not good for you. It
Speaker 1: keeps you stuck in embodying, feeling negative emotions, It keeps
Speaker 1: you in the same pathway of thinking, and ultimately you're
Speaker 1: narrowing down your reality and your viewpoint of the world.
Speaker 1: And just stay in this, this small little pattern of
Speaker 1: negativity if you can, in that moment recognize those feelings arise,
Speaker 1: choose to act differently, and instead of being like you know,
Speaker 1: saying telling someone go fuck yourself, being like let me,
Speaker 1: let me like receive what they said, see like, think
Speaker 1: about where they're saying it from, why I'm feeling this way,
Speaker 1: and then respond in a thoughtful, constructive or don't respond
Speaker 1: at all and just move on. What that does is
Speaker 1: it disrupts that pattern of behavior. And when you realize
Speaker 1: that your reactions to you know, other people, to situations
Speaker 1: in life, to your own anxiety, to your own fear,
Speaker 1: to your own sense of incapability. If you're looking at
Speaker 1: something like a project or something you want to do,
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm not going to try that because
Speaker 1: it's I can't do that. Any of these reactions, you know,
Speaker 1: you can pause and notice that arising, stop and respond
Speaker 1: to what you're feeling as supposed to react to it,
Speaker 1: and rewrite the program of your thinking and therefore rewrite
Speaker 1: what enfolds in the future.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 2: Nice, that sounds good. Sign me up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to rewrite my future. Write it you
Speaker 3: just you want to.
Speaker 1: You want to rewrite your present, and that writes your future.
Speaker 2: Right, you have this whole you have this whole section,
Speaker 2: new view, new you. Right, So what you really think
Speaker 2: that can I change? Can I actually change myself?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Can I actually like fundamentally?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Wow sure?
Speaker 1: I mean why why wouldn't.
Speaker 2: You be able to without the use of substances?
Speaker 1: Oh well, that is that's an addendum to that. No, yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: I have found that, you know, while substances can be helpful,
Speaker 1: they simply they're just doorways.
Speaker 3: They're not answers.
Speaker 1: The answers really come from doing the more difficult work
Speaker 1: of patiently observing your mind in the present. Moment and
Speaker 1: making small changes again and again and again and over time,
Speaker 1: that's what creates the permanent change. I agree with that
Speaker 1: to look at it. You know, one time in deep meditation,
Speaker 1: it hit me that that's why metaphorically a lot of
Speaker 1: Buddhist temples have many, many steps going up very high.
Speaker 1: It's because in order to see from the viewpoint of
Speaker 1: the sky, it takes one tiny step and then another
Speaker 1: tiny step and another tiny step in another.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Sharon Salzburg always like just
Speaker 2: any any moment, just return home. Yeah, it's like every second,
Speaker 2: like if you're freaking out, if you're having a whole
Speaker 2: panic attack, you're just like, I'll get through this second. Well, everyone,
Speaker 2: we've Sharon Salzburg, I, when you talk about not settling,
Speaker 2: are you talking about like satisficing, like the theory of
Speaker 2: satisficing from psychology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's and it's whenever you that's the new
Speaker 1: view knew you is like once you do some of
Speaker 1: that mental house cleaning and you start to wake up
Speaker 1: a little bit, And I guess I don't really like
Speaker 1: that word. Once you start to become more aware and
Speaker 1: you start thinking about these things, you start paying attention
Speaker 1: to what you're thinking, what you're feeling, what your intuition
Speaker 1: is telling in any given moment, you start intervening in
Speaker 1: those moments, taking a little bit of charge you, what
Speaker 1: will happen is that the landscape of your life will
Speaker 1: start to look different to you. It will start to
Speaker 1: become more apparent, It'll start to become more clear of
Speaker 1: like what is really what does my life really look like?
Speaker 1: And once you see that, you can see where you.
Speaker 3: Want it to change.
Speaker 1: And that's what I mean by don't settle is that
Speaker 1: when if you have that vision of like, you know what, like,
Speaker 1: don't deny your dreams. That's you know, let's say you
Speaker 1: want to be the most famous podcaster in the world,
Speaker 1: Scott Like, there's no reason for you to sit here
Speaker 1: and think that that's not possible. Really, no, why would
Speaker 1: you think that's not possible?
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, so maybe that's possible, but being in
Speaker 2: the NBA that ain't possible. I mean, are there certain
Speaker 2: goals that aren't possible?
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, but.
Speaker 1: You know there's being realistic about physical.
Speaker 2: La almost beat Kobe Bryant and pig and gym class
Speaker 2: in high school?
Speaker 3: Is that true? Really? You guys went to high school together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in middle school.
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But anyway, there's certain goals. I know you have the
Speaker 2: whole chapter on the wisdom of goals, but there are
Speaker 2: some like when do you know what goals are unrealistic
Speaker 2: and which ones are realistic?
Speaker 1: Well, I guess you'd have to think about, you know, terms,
Speaker 1: like you said, like physical limitations. Is one be realistic
Speaker 1: in terms of the laws of.
Speaker 3: Nature, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like, you're not going to be like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to jump fifty feet in the air. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's not possible because it's physically not possible.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: But if there's something that you know you want to do,
Speaker 1: you should at least don't settle for not trying at all,
Speaker 1: Like why would you just not try?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: And it's like in the in the book, I put
Speaker 1: kind of the thing of like if you like, the
Speaker 1: saying goes, if you want to, you know, climb to
Speaker 1: the top of the mountain and shoot for the stars,
Speaker 1: like try and go really high and you'll probably land
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle of the mountain. But if you
Speaker 1: don't aim that I to begin with, you know, you'll
Speaker 1: you won't get as high as you whatever otherwise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I compliely agree with that. I mean, anything
Speaker 2: that I set my sights on, I do put my
Speaker 2: heart and soul into it, because you do only live once.
Speaker 3: Be curious. I tht you're a Buddhist.
Speaker 2: I'm with you on not agreeing with that. All the
Speaker 2: rest are good, but number one and that one and
Speaker 2: the desire one, I don't know.
Speaker 1: So basically half of the police.
Speaker 2: Correct, correct, and I will get high with a Buddha.
Speaker 2: I would love it. Yeah. Actually, when I'm high, I
Speaker 2: do was more attachments. I feel I feel a reduced
Speaker 2: sense of attachment to anything. When I'm a bid.
Speaker 3: I feel like, why that's so funny to me?
Speaker 2: So you talk about letting go and finding peace, I
Speaker 2: think that is just such a huge, huge thing. Is
Speaker 2: that surrendering aspect? Like what does that process look like
Speaker 2: to have you? Like personally, have you gone through that process?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that letting go
Speaker 1: ultimately for me, is letting go of the stories about
Speaker 1: yourself about like who you are, who you can't be?
Speaker 1: You know, what's capable and like if you are constantly
Speaker 1: thinking about kind of negative things that you've experienced, you
Speaker 1: can allow those to influence who you are and like
Speaker 1: who you think you can be today, you know, and
Speaker 1: that is can trap us a lot, you know, and
Speaker 1: then hold us back. That's one element of letting go.
Speaker 1: Another element of letting go is letting go of the
Speaker 1: things that disrupt just your sense of peacefulness and joy
Speaker 1: in the present moment. You know, whenever you feel an
Speaker 1: angry reaction to something, whenever you feel stressed, whenever you
Speaker 1: feel tension, you know, those are feelings that we should
Speaker 1: experience for a reason. But the key is is not
Speaker 1: holding on to them for a long time, you know,
Speaker 1: because it doesn't really serve us. But the issue is
Speaker 1: that we generally feel those feelings so rarely in terms
Speaker 1: of a twenty four hour day cycle. We may feel
Speaker 1: that once every couple of days or once a day
Speaker 1: or something like that, that they hit us a little bit harder,
Speaker 1: and therefore they stay sort of in the ecosystem a
Speaker 1: little bit longer. But being able to recognize them as
Speaker 1: you know, arising responses to something we're experiencing or something
Speaker 1: we're thinking, recognize them as what they are, and then
Speaker 1: align the pass through. It's really viable because it just
Speaker 1: keeps us in, you know, a state of, as I said,
Speaker 1: kind of joyful awareness more more frequently, and therefore decision
Speaker 1: making is better and more clear.
Speaker 2: Twenty full awareness.
Speaker 3: I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: What's your own journey with meditation and mindfulness? Is this
Speaker 2: a new thing for you or have you been doing
Speaker 2: like past twenty years?
Speaker 1: I've been there, yeah, yeah, twenty five years.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Really?
Speaker 2: Is there a specific like branch you know that you practice.
Speaker 1: No total spiritual colllecticism, you know, so basically, whenever I
Speaker 1: was a teenager, like, no one in my life system
Speaker 1: at any no one read in my family. There were
Speaker 1: no books, there was no Eastern Thought or anything like that,
Speaker 1: and I really just randomly stumbled across it and became
Speaker 1: obsessed with it because it was I've told the story before,
Speaker 1: but essentially I heard someone say whenever I was like
Speaker 1: fourteen or something like that, I heard someone say that
Speaker 1: if they could, and this is out in public, if
Speaker 1: they could have dinner with two people that are alive,
Speaker 1: they would want it to be Nietzsche in Jesus, which
Speaker 1: that sounds pretty fun, but but I didn't know who
Speaker 1: that was. And so I was in a bookstore after
Speaker 1: that and I saw the name Nietzsche on the back
Speaker 1: of the book. I was like, Oh, there's that name. Interesting,
Speaker 1: let me go see what that's all about. And when
Speaker 1: I opened it up and I started reading, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is like how I think. This
Speaker 1: is like it's not necessarily what I think, but it's
Speaker 1: kind of the math of like abstract conceptual, you know,
Speaker 1: this sort of thinking. And I got really obsessed with it.
Speaker 1: And so I obsessed on reading Western philosophy. I would
Speaker 1: read for four or five hours a day easily, and
Speaker 1: then I moved over to because some of the Western
Speaker 1: philosophers mentioned Eastern philosophers, you know, and I started thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: let me go figure out what this Eastern philosophy is about.
Speaker 1: And I picked up and memory tells me, I don't
Speaker 1: know if this is accurate, but I seem to remember.
Speaker 1: The first book I picked up was Essays and Zen
Speaker 1: Buddhism by DT. Suzuki, and I remember reading that and
Speaker 1: just being like, wow, this is like this is what
Speaker 1: I think or how I think and what I think.
Speaker 1: That's cool, And I've just became obsessed with that world.
Speaker 1: And this is in the nineties, and so this is
Speaker 1: before YouTube, this is before Google This is before the
Speaker 1: top ten ways to meditate.
Speaker 2: Self healing is self discovery.
Speaker 3: Who what do you mean?
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean basically in order for us to understand the
Speaker 1: ways that we're going to, like, even though I don't
Speaker 1: really like the word, but the quote unquote heal, and
Speaker 1: that means letting go of your your your anger, your judgments,
Speaker 1: your frustrations, your your against yourself, against other people, like
Speaker 1: your you know, feelings of you know, just the general
Speaker 1: pain and suffering that you you might carry because of
Speaker 1: your past experience. In order to figure out what those
Speaker 1: things are, you have to start, like opening your mind
Speaker 1: a little bit. You have to start raising your awareness.
Speaker 1: You have to start looking in Like so, if you're
Speaker 1: in a relationship and you realize that you you have
Speaker 1: a hard time like talking about commitment, let's say, then
Speaker 1: normally you may get kg, you may get weird, you
Speaker 1: may have an aggressive response to try and you know,
Speaker 1: hold people to create a wall in the in the
Speaker 1: relationship or whatever. But if you notice that feeling, that tension,
Speaker 1: that wall arising whenever you start talking about commitment, then
Speaker 1: you go, hold on a second, there there's something there,
Speaker 1: and that's what the self discovery aspect is as you go,
Speaker 1: let me look inward and let me actually sit and
Speaker 1: explore that feeling that and it's like, okay, every time
Speaker 1: we talk about commitment, there is this tension, there's this
Speaker 1: and what is that tension? Let me just label it,
Speaker 1: like there's tension, now, what is it? What's maybe? What's
Speaker 1: what else am I feeling? Almost like smelling a glass
Speaker 1: of wine, It's like what else? What else do I
Speaker 1: smell in there? It's like, ah, there's fear, and there's
Speaker 1: all on a second, there's pain. There's like pain underneath
Speaker 1: that where's that coming from? And then you can go
Speaker 1: back and you look and like, ah, well my parents
Speaker 1: got divorced from what I was for and it was
Speaker 1: very destructive and so you did. Yeah, I'm just using
Speaker 1: my own examples.
Speaker 3: So you're like.
Speaker 1: So you're like, all right, So that's why one of
Speaker 1: the reasons I'm probably having this reaction is because I'm
Speaker 1: scared that's going to happen here. Yeah, And you know,
Speaker 1: and that's just one of many, many examples. But it's
Speaker 1: kind of how it can work. Is when you notice
Speaker 1: these these painful emotions or reactions happening in your life
Speaker 1: starting to or it doesn't have to be that. I
Speaker 1: can you also be limiting thoughts, you know, self negative,
Speaker 1: self talk, any of these things, intrusive thoughts, noticing them
Speaker 1: when they come and start moving around, putting some space
Speaker 1: around them, starting questioning and kind of really understanding what
Speaker 1: they are and where they're come from. And then through
Speaker 1: that you're able to actually work with it, because then
Speaker 1: you know what you're dealing with. It's like if you
Speaker 1: went into a doctor's office and you're like, I'm in pain,
Speaker 1: like where and you're like, I don't know. They're like, well,
Speaker 1: I can't really help you. But if you're like I
Speaker 1: cut my leg open, then they can help. It's the
Speaker 1: same type of thing.
Speaker 2: This, I mean, the major, the major kind of vibe
Speaker 2: or spirit of this book is really you know, you
Speaker 2: can be more, You're capable more you. That's obviously a
Speaker 2: message that people do want. You did listen to your
Speaker 2: people of what they want. What are your thoughts about
Speaker 2: the whole manifestation space? Are there things in the self
Speaker 2: help industry that you're in the industry, but are the
Speaker 2: things that that you roll your eyes at that are
Speaker 2: like maybe you feel like are two out there where
Speaker 2: are the limits here on what we can become.
Speaker 1: I don't really roll my eyes. Well let's say I
Speaker 1: roll my eyes at everything and nothing like that. I
Speaker 1: like that, But I wouldn't want to short change something
Speaker 1: that's working for someone else just because it's not useful
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 3: That's fair, I'll put it that way.
Speaker 1: In terms of you know, what I don't like are
Speaker 1: things that lead people down paths of self delusion. And
Speaker 1: that just means getting further away from objective reality and
Speaker 1: objective truth as opposed to closer to it, because in
Speaker 1: order to make change, you have to close the gap
Speaker 1: between your perception of reality and what's really happening, because
Speaker 1: only then can you take action that affects real life
Speaker 1: whenever you're actually seeing what's going on, and that's how
Speaker 1: you create actual change. Right, So you mentioned manifestation. Do
Speaker 1: I think there is a cosmic sense in one definition
Speaker 1: of like if you imagine the classic you know example,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to imagine a Ferrari in my driveway
Speaker 1: and that's going to appear, that's preposterous. But what isn't
Speaker 1: preposterous in terms of manifestation is setting a clear goal
Speaker 1: and an intention in your mind and going like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've identified what I want. Now let me start.
Speaker 3: Working towards that. That work.
Speaker 1: That's by definition, that's a form of manifestation. If you're
Speaker 1: like if I was like I want to write a book. Okay,
Speaker 1: I want to write a book. Let me start figuring
Speaker 1: out how to get there. I'm going to make this
Speaker 1: happen for myself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love talking to people like you. You know,
Speaker 2: on this podcast, we've all sorts of different kinds, right,
Speaker 2: we have like buttoned up scientists, right, PhDs. You know,
Speaker 2: everything's like all eyes are dotted. Everything single thing they're
Speaker 2: saying is like I'm citing this Paide journal, PAIP reviewed paper.
Speaker 2: But like, I love talking to people like you as
Speaker 2: well on my podcast because it's kind of hard to
Speaker 2: argue that you're not successful. You have clearly reached a
Speaker 2: certain level of personal success. It's something you wanted and
Speaker 2: so being able to kind of reverse engineer that is
Speaker 2: so fastating to me, and I know it's fasting to
Speaker 2: our audience as well. Like, you know, even when I
Speaker 2: knew you talked to you years ago, you weren't where
Speaker 2: you are right now. So like to watch I freaking
Speaker 2: love watching people grow. I thought that must be like
Speaker 2: my favorite thing. And it's like, as a self actualization coach,
Speaker 2: I'm kind of on brand saying that. Yeah, but with
Speaker 2: friends with people like you, I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 2: That was my first feeling when I when someone reintroduced us.
Speaker 2: So you clearly have cultivated the right mindsets, the right
Speaker 2: ways of being. It sounds like a lot of it
Speaker 2: is listening. A lot of it is is not talking
Speaker 2: so much, and I think that can be tough in
Speaker 2: the self help space. It seems like everyone's just trying
Speaker 2: to get the louder sort of my five things, no, no,
Speaker 2: my five things, no five?
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? Like, oh yea, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: It sounds like you really took a step back right
Speaker 2: in this process just to listen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I poke fun of the my five things in
Speaker 1: the book too.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, sure that that can be useful to have
Speaker 1: like five things, but that's not very deep, you know.
Speaker 1: And also another problem with self help culture, like kind
Speaker 1: of on the area that you're talking about is like,
Speaker 1: this is why I did it backwards, like I reversed
Speaker 1: in junius, because a lot of people say, like, here
Speaker 1: are the ten things that you need. Here are the
Speaker 1: five things that you need to feel happiness. Here are
Speaker 1: the five things look for in a partner. Here are
Speaker 1: five ways to do this. It's like, I mean, those things,
Speaker 1: what are they really doing for people who are reading that?
Speaker 1: And let's see the disservice that they're doing is if
Speaker 1: like a person sees that and they're like, well, I
Speaker 1: guess I'm not really doing those things. Like, so I
Speaker 1: must be doing something wrong, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 3: You feel like a loser if you're not doing this
Speaker 3: right right?
Speaker 2: You talk about developing a cultivating appetite for possible things.
Speaker 2: Can you elaborate a little bit on that? How can I?
Speaker 2: How can I? How can we all develop that appetite?
Speaker 1: I'd love to ye. Are you a Bertrand Russell fan?
Speaker 2: I'm not not really. Oh really, I'm not not a thing.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: They don't have to tell me what I should be.
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to have some shades shade.
Speaker 2: I'm not that well versed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In his book Conquest of Happiness, which is kind.
Speaker 3: Of the f I should read that. Oh you should
Speaker 3: have you ever? Have you ever? It's nice?
Speaker 1: It's like the first. It's from the nineteen thirties, twenties
Speaker 1: and thirties, and it's kind of the first like legit
Speaker 1: self help book, and it's really solid, and you know,
Speaker 1: he's obviously quite a strong thinker, so it's not there's
Speaker 1: no no nonsense in there. But yeah, one of the
Speaker 1: things he talks about is cultivating an appetite for possible things,
Speaker 1: and that stuck with me for a long time. You know,
Speaker 1: I read that book twenty years ago and I still
Speaker 1: have had that in my brain. I've wanted to use
Speaker 1: it somewhere, and that's why I named the last chapter
Speaker 1: of that And ultimately it's like he talks about and
Speaker 1: this is I go into this in the book as well,
Speaker 1: is cultivating what he calls.
Speaker 3: Like zest in the time.
Speaker 1: And that is that's why our conversation has been so
Speaker 1: fragmented in all the place. It's because we've been overflowing
Speaker 1: with zests.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: It's the energy. It's like life energy. It's like when
Speaker 1: if you're just overflowing with joy, excitement, curiosity, you know,
Speaker 1: and a feeling of flowing forward into the world. Like
Speaker 1: that's what it is. Right, So how do you cultivate
Speaker 1: that more of that.
Speaker 3: Feeling you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So it is looking for and it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what other people think, but like, what are the
Speaker 1: things in life just in watching Again, this is more
Speaker 1: kind of mindful territory here of just watching in life.
Speaker 1: What is something that you do that makes you feel alive?
Speaker 1: That could be cooking. When you cook, you feel like
Speaker 1: you get that little extra magical sense of energy. It
Speaker 1: just makes you happy. It perks you up, even if
Speaker 1: you're tired. Maybe it's you know, gardening, maybe it's teaching
Speaker 1: you know somewhere. Maybe for us clearly it's having these
Speaker 1: conversations because but it just rows both of us to
Speaker 1: this place of fun energy. Yeah me too, you know,
Speaker 1: me too. And so it's like looking for those things
Speaker 1: in your life. And then when you notice those things
Speaker 1: that give you that little raise of like more life,
Speaker 1: then like doing something about it, going like you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do that more and more. I'm going
Speaker 1: to make this a feature part of my life and
Speaker 1: make it something really important. The more that you do
Speaker 1: that then and this is actually leads to the path
Speaker 1: of happiness because as you start intentionally putting more energy
Speaker 1: into the things in life that make you feel that
Speaker 1: feeling of a liveness. You start cultivating meaning. And you're
Speaker 1: cultivating meaning because you're putting this energy into this, it's
Speaker 1: creating this kind of history, you know, for you to
Speaker 1: look back on. You get better at this thing, it
Speaker 1: becomes important because you've put time to it, and that
Speaker 1: starts to create a sense of purpose because now you're like,
Speaker 1: if cooking was sort of like, oh this is fun.
Speaker 1: When I do it, I feel good, you start putting
Speaker 1: energy into it, doing it more, getting better at it,
Speaker 1: really getting a deep sense of that feeling. Then six
Speaker 1: months later, now your self identification changes to where you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm a pretty good chef all of a sudden, and
Speaker 1: now you're good at something and there's something featured in
Speaker 1: your life that actually gives you that feeling of liveness.
Speaker 1: Now you have purpose and fulfillment. And once you have
Speaker 1: purpose and fulfillment and continue in that cycle, you then
Speaker 1: start to arrive at this place where you get what
Speaker 1: I like to call the after glow. Happiness is an
Speaker 1: afterglow of meaningfulness, purpose and fulfillment. It's not something you get,
Speaker 1: it's what happens after you have those things, And that's
Speaker 1: how you cultivate the appetite for possible things, is you
Speaker 1: find what gives you that feeling that makes you feel
Speaker 1: more alive, intentionally put more energy to it, and you'll
Speaker 1: see that the more that you do that, the more
Speaker 1: that you continue to feel confident, you know, in a
Speaker 1: life with meaning.
Speaker 2: It sounds like a lot of that takes self trust
Speaker 2: and that's a process. Did you Was that a process
Speaker 2: for you or because it's because you had to be
Speaker 2: so independent as at a young kid, you actually developed
Speaker 2: those skills really really early.
Speaker 1: I did develop those skills early. Yeah, but it still
Speaker 1: doesn't mean like just because I developed it really doesn't
Speaker 1: mean they don't didn't continue to take a lot of work,
Speaker 1: you know, and for everyone it's like you just it's
Speaker 1: a process, and it's like we've talked about it, we've
Speaker 1: covered but a little bit in this in this conversation already,
Speaker 1: but so much of it is like starting small, what's
Speaker 1: something that you can do? And like that example with
Speaker 1: your loser earlier, it's like dress a little bit better,
Speaker 1: Like okay, now you feel a little bit better. Cool,
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of self trust. You did a thing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you did a thing. Now, maybe you want to go
Speaker 1: get a degree or something, or you want to start
Speaker 1: your own business, like start working towards that you come
Speaker 1: up with the name you read about like, you know,
Speaker 1: but whatever the field that you want to be in,
Speaker 1: you're building a little bit more expertise, a little bit
Speaker 1: more trust that what you can service the feeling that
Speaker 1: you're you know, your intuition is is telling you to
Speaker 1: go in in that direction you can you can start
Speaker 1: to do that, and that's how you start to build
Speaker 1: that more and more, and it just gets bigger and
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger as you, over time continue to do
Speaker 1: that because it just keeps scaling the confidence that you're
Speaker 1: able to follow through with what arises and what's meaningful
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 2: Oh that's nicely the nicest place to stop, probably anything
Speaker 2: you want to kind of pitch, you know, besides your
Speaker 2: book obviously. Are you still doing your podcast?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Oh right on how many years? Says have you been
Speaker 2: doing that now?
Speaker 3: Ten? Dude? Yeah, we're like the O G right yeah wow.
Speaker 2: Well I'm so proud of you, as I've always said,
Speaker 2: and you know, thanks so much for coming here, inspiring me,
Speaker 2: inspiring everyone to think bigger you know, you've inspired me
Speaker 2: to think bigger too.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's really been a pleasure. It's an honor,
Speaker 1: and I'm grateful to be here with you. Man, So
Speaker 1: thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: M