WEBVTT - Toxic Digital Spills.  Roger McNamee talks to Armstrong & Getty

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we like any opportunity to give a good kick

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<v Speaker 1>in to one Mark Zucker. Well, that is true. I've

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<v Speaker 1>been looking forward to this interview since we booked at

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<v Speaker 1>Roger mcnabee is a tech ventury capitalist writer, a thinker,

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<v Speaker 1>also a musician, and he's written a book called Zucked

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<v Speaker 1>Waking Up to the Facebook Catastrophe. Roger, welcome, How are you, sir?

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<v Speaker 1>I am really well, it's so much fun to be

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<v Speaker 1>on the show with you. Guys. Oh, that's that's nice

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<v Speaker 1>of you to say. I see you went to a

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<v Speaker 1>Yale bribe or merit, you know. I actually it was

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<v Speaker 1>worse than that. It was random dumb luck and uh

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<v Speaker 1>no I was. I was. I was back in the

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<v Speaker 1>days before bribe or merit even mattered. Really, you just

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<v Speaker 1>got picked. I'm that old. Yeah, well you've done well,

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<v Speaker 1>so so good for you. Hey, listen the title, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a strong word, Waking up to the Facebook Catastrophe. Do

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<v Speaker 1>tell so you know guys. Here, here's what the issue is.

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<v Speaker 1>That we as consumers love using internet products, right. We

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<v Speaker 1>love the fun, we love the convenience, we love the

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<v Speaker 1>productivity that come from them. But our understanding of the

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<v Speaker 1>deal that we have with them, which is that we

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<v Speaker 1>give up our data. They give us this really cool

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<v Speaker 1>personalized surface is not what's actually going on. What's actually

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<v Speaker 1>going on is that these guys do that, but they

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<v Speaker 1>are now building businesses that are designed to essentially manipulate

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<v Speaker 1>us in ways we're not aware. And I'll give you

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<v Speaker 1>a couple examples, like Google. Right when you think about uh, Gmail,

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<v Speaker 1>which is something so many of us use, right, we

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<v Speaker 1>we originally signed up with a deal that said Google,

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<v Speaker 1>you may scan our emails, uh, because you're gonna put

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<v Speaker 1>targeted advertising in in order to pay for the service.

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<v Speaker 1>But then we discover we didn't like the ads, so

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<v Speaker 1>Google remove the ads, but they're still scanning our emails. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I want you to think about this for just a minute.

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<v Speaker 1>You know all of us send letters, we send packages

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<v Speaker 1>with fat as, we use the phone company. In those cases,

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<v Speaker 1>those company these are called common carriers. They transport. They're

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<v Speaker 1>not allowed to spy on what we're doing. And Google

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<v Speaker 1>would tell the federal government, hang on, We're a platform,

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<v Speaker 1>not a media company. You can't hold us to the rules. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>You guys are have all these rules because you're a

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<v Speaker 1>media company, you're responsible for the content you put out.

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<v Speaker 1>Google says you can't hold a response to that. You

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<v Speaker 1>have to treat us as a platform, which is like

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<v Speaker 1>a telephone company or like a postal service. And yet

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<v Speaker 1>they scanned the contents of the messages and we, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not aware that what they're doing is they're gathering

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<v Speaker 1>data on our behavior in order to essentially affect our future,

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<v Speaker 1>to give us choices that we're not aware that we're

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<v Speaker 1>being limited to. And it's very harmful. With Pokemon going,

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<v Speaker 1>do you guys remember Pokemon Going? So that got created

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<v Speaker 1>inside Google's labs, and we think we're going out there

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<v Speaker 1>and just playing this really fun game. Let me tell

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<v Speaker 1>you what's really going on. What's going on is they

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<v Speaker 1>got a billion people going around with their cameras taking

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<v Speaker 1>pictures of everything they were doing. So they would use

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<v Speaker 1>it for image recognition, they would do it to follow roots.

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<v Speaker 1>But then they did a behavioral manipulation experiment. They wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to see, if we put a Pokemon in private property,

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<v Speaker 1>can we get you to knock on stranger's door, climb

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<v Speaker 1>over a fence, yes we could. And if we put

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<v Speaker 1>a Pokemon in a Starbucks, can we get you to

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<v Speaker 1>go in and buy a cup? Of coffee. Yes, we could. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>how about if we put it in the third Starbucks

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<v Speaker 1>on the street further away and we gave you ten

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<v Speaker 1>cents off, would you behave that way? And you know

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<v Speaker 1>when we use Google Maps, same thing. You know, the

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<v Speaker 1>route says hey, take this weird looking route right, and

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<v Speaker 1>we think, well, that's going to be faster, and it

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<v Speaker 1>turns out it's not. Google's purpose with Google Maps is

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<v Speaker 1>not to get us to our destination faster, is to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure they gather all the data on the speed

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<v Speaker 1>of all the roots, and so they need some people

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<v Speaker 1>to take inferior roots some of the times. Well that's interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't take that route, by the way, and I

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<v Speaker 1>never have because I've always looked at and thought that's

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<v Speaker 1>their system is flawed to think that's the best way

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<v Speaker 1>to get there, better way to get it. They know

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<v Speaker 1>it's not the best way to get there. Interesting. So

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<v Speaker 1>my point is we think the deal we have us,

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<v Speaker 1>we're given them data so we get a better service.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is a small part of what's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>But now increasingly what's going on is they're running these

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<v Speaker 1>manipulation experiments. They're essentially recognizing there's a lot of data

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<v Speaker 1>in the world, and if they gather at all, they

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<v Speaker 1>can make the world more efficient. The problem is when

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<v Speaker 1>they make the world more efficient, they're taking choices away

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<v Speaker 1>from us, and we're not conscious of that. And so

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<v Speaker 1>a big part of what I'm trying to do is

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<v Speaker 1>just say to people, wait a minute. The way they're

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<v Speaker 1>doing this is they have said said they own all

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<v Speaker 1>this data. Right, they take pictures of your house, they

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<v Speaker 1>say they own it. They take pictures of you know

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<v Speaker 1>through Pokemon Go, they say they own that. They go

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<v Speaker 1>and buy your most intimate financial data, health data, location data,

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<v Speaker 1>They get your browser history, they scan your emails, they

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<v Speaker 1>scan your documents, and they say they own all that

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<v Speaker 1>and they can use it for their commercial purposes. And

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<v Speaker 1>the problem is while they do all that kind of stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>they set up an environment where we're all being controlled

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<v Speaker 1>like lab rats, and bad guys can take advantage of

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<v Speaker 1>all those same tools. And that's how you wind up

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<v Speaker 1>with terrorism in New Zealand. That's how you wind up

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<v Speaker 1>with election interference in Brexit in the United Kingdom, That's

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<v Speaker 1>how you wind up with ethnic cleansing in Mean Mar

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<v Speaker 1>And so we've got this situation where the cost of

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<v Speaker 1>these really fun Services is starting to get to be really, really,

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<v Speaker 1>really high. Roger McNamee is on the line. The book

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<v Speaker 1>is zucked waking up to the Facebook catastrophe. Listen, we

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<v Speaker 1>could talk to you all day about this, and we

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<v Speaker 1>ought to drag you back for a longer form podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>but I want to hit some highlights and the time

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<v Speaker 1>we have and the manipulation of our animal brains, the

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<v Speaker 1>tiny shots of endorphin, the hooking of stuff I find

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating is it is scary. So the way it works

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<v Speaker 1>is really simple. They got to get you. They're competing

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<v Speaker 1>against all these other media, they compete against your show.

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<v Speaker 1>So how do they do that. They use the same

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<v Speaker 1>things that markets have always used. They appeal to our

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<v Speaker 1>need for rewards. They give us notifications. But the difference

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<v Speaker 1>in radio, everybody gets same message. On Facebook and Google,

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<v Speaker 1>they can tailor it precisely to you, and once they

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<v Speaker 1>get you on right, they want to make a habit.

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<v Speaker 1>But for many of us, the habit turns into an addition.

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<v Speaker 1>Like I asked people, you want to know if you're addicted,

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<v Speaker 1>when do you check your phone first thing in the morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it before you pee or while you're peeing? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>Because for most of us that full range, right. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>by the time you've done peeing, you've been checking your

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<v Speaker 1>phone for a minute. So once they get you, then

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<v Speaker 1>they want to probably about two minutes. Well then you

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<v Speaker 1>get to read a lot more, right, But basically, once

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<v Speaker 1>they've got you, then they got to keep you. And

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<v Speaker 1>the way they do that is they find the stuff

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<v Speaker 1>that most animates us, and it turns out, unfortunately that's

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<v Speaker 1>going to be stuff that makes us afraid, or stuff

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<v Speaker 1>that makes us outraged, or its conspiracy theories and disinformation.

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<v Speaker 1>And the problem with this is that it just it's universal.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you see somebody's perfect vacation on Instagram, you

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<v Speaker 1>know you might be jealous, but if some he makes

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<v Speaker 1>you afraid, you're gonna share it. And you're gonna share

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<v Speaker 1>it because if you're afraid and others join you in

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<v Speaker 1>that fear, you relax. It's a herd mentality and they're

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<v Speaker 1>so good at it, like you. I mostly my weakness

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<v Speaker 1>is YouTube around this, which is owned by Google, and

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<v Speaker 1>they have figured out my life so well. When I

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<v Speaker 1>throw on YouTube, it's just a list of things I'm

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<v Speaker 1>interested in. I mean, they know all my favorite you know,

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<v Speaker 1>history authors, guitar stores, just all my favorite stuff, baby monkeys,

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<v Speaker 1>the top swine, that sort. They've got me figured out

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<v Speaker 1>completely as to what's going to get here around there,

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<v Speaker 1>here's the problem with it. Okay, we said, were hang on,

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<v Speaker 1>just get rid of the hate speech, get rid of

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<v Speaker 1>the disinformation. But they can't because the business model is

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<v Speaker 1>based on knowing who you really are, and when we're

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<v Speaker 1>going out in public, we have our best selves on.

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<v Speaker 1>But they need to get past that. They need to

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<v Speaker 1>see how we react to outrage, how do we react

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<v Speaker 1>to fear? How do we react you know, if they

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<v Speaker 1>show us something that's anti Semitic, how do we react

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<v Speaker 1>to that. If they show us something that's anti immigrant,

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<v Speaker 1>how do we react to that? And they need that

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<v Speaker 1>information to make the business model work, and in the process,

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<v Speaker 1>that causes polarization. Right, It causes to be angry at

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<v Speaker 1>people who frankly have a lot in common with us,

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<v Speaker 1>but we may disagree on one topic topic and that's

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<v Speaker 1>what's unhealthy about it. And that's what I'm trying to

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<v Speaker 1>get people to do. Uh, to step back and just

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<v Speaker 1>ask the question. The business model is based on having

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<v Speaker 1>our most personal data. Why is it legal for Google

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<v Speaker 1>and other people to scan our emails and documents. It

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't be. They should be treated like the postal service.

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<v Speaker 1>Why is it legal for them to trade our personal

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<v Speaker 1>health information in a doctor's office? They can't do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Why is it legal for them to get our most

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<v Speaker 1>personal financial information without our understanding, approval and support. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the same thing for location. And I think once we

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<v Speaker 1>have these conversations what I've discovered. If I'm on Fox,

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<v Speaker 1>everybody agrees, If I'm on MSNBC, everybody agrees. Well, now

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<v Speaker 1>that's interesting, right, this is about right and wrong, not

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<v Speaker 1>right and left, And so everybody goes, yeah, you're right.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to be controlled by some corporation. But

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<v Speaker 1>that's what's going on. They're manipulating us. And my point

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<v Speaker 1>it's not because they're bad people, it's because there are

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<v Speaker 1>no rules. Now, Roger, I don't know a lot about you,

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<v Speaker 1>but I have reason to believe that that you're able

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<v Speaker 1>to make your rent and have a little money left

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<v Speaker 1>over to spend. We'll just leave it there. Um, but

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<v Speaker 1>obviously you were really really motivated to write this book. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there a moment, was there a particular realization that

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<v Speaker 1>made you think I'm going to spend the next several

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<v Speaker 1>years of my life fighting this stuff. There was so

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<v Speaker 1>I was at one time a mentor to Mark Zuckerberg

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<v Speaker 1>and Cheryl Sandberg and UM. But that was early in

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<v Speaker 1>the life of Facebook, back two thousand six two nine,

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<v Speaker 1>and in I started to notice things violations of civil rights,

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<v Speaker 1>the Breggs, a referendum in the United Kingdom. There was

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<v Speaker 1>manipulation going on there, and I reached out to my

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<v Speaker 1>friends to warn them that I thought there was something

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<v Speaker 1>wrong with the business model and algorithms at Facebook, and

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<v Speaker 1>I spent three months trying to persu wait them to

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<v Speaker 1>do with Johnson. And Johnson did after somebody poison bottles

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<v Speaker 1>of talent on Chicago, which is to protect the people

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<v Speaker 1>who used their product, to drop everything and just leap

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<v Speaker 1>to their defense. I spent three months pushing them. They

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<v Speaker 1>said they weren't interested, and it was at that point

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<v Speaker 1>I was faced with a moral choice. I've been involved here,

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<v Speaker 1>I had profited from it, and I was retired, so

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<v Speaker 1>I could have just sat back and watched. But what

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<v Speaker 1>I chose to do, I said, you know what, I

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<v Speaker 1>owe it to myself and to everybody to see if

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<v Speaker 1>I can spread the word to make people aware that

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<v Speaker 1>that this thing I was involved in, which I loved

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<v Speaker 1>so much has for a variety of reasons that are

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<v Speaker 1>related to the culture of business and related to culture

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<v Speaker 1>of Silicon Valley, you know, going into a really, really

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<v Speaker 1>bad place. So it's God. That's one question I want

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<v Speaker 1>to I want to get to before we run out

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<v Speaker 1>of time, is did it start as something else and

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<v Speaker 1>become this as they realized how much money to can

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<v Speaker 1>mak or was this the intent all along? Don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I I believe that that at the beginning they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>see where it was going to go. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>Mark from the beginning, we wanted to connect the whole world,

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<v Speaker 1>But I don't think he completely internalized what that meant

0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.920
<v Speaker 1>and what that opportunity would create, because when he was

0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:16.000
<v Speaker 1>in college, before he did this, you couldn't have created Facebook. Basically,

0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.280
<v Speaker 1>they came along at the perfect time when suddenly all

0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.520
<v Speaker 1>the limits on technology went away and you could make

0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.600
<v Speaker 1>a global product. And it took them a long time

0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.319
<v Speaker 1>to figure this out. They did not figure it out

0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.599
<v Speaker 1>while I was involved there. It came actually three or

0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.040
<v Speaker 1>four years later than that. And you know, in Google's case,

0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:32.680
<v Speaker 1>they figured it out much earlier, but I was not

0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.520
<v Speaker 1>an insider there, so I didn't see it. And at

0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.000
<v Speaker 1>the end of the day, I think that in a

0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.280
<v Speaker 1>culture of business where essentially we've removed the government as

0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.400
<v Speaker 1>the center of rules and the enforcer of rules, you

0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.959
<v Speaker 1>basically have smart people who have license to grab whatever

0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.280
<v Speaker 1>they can grab, and the rest of us are powerless

0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.560
<v Speaker 1>to stop them until we go to the ballot box,

0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.679
<v Speaker 1>until we go to elected officials and say, hang on,

0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:01.000
<v Speaker 1>what are you doing to prevent these guys from trading

0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.200
<v Speaker 1>my most personal information and manipulating my wife. You know,

0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.880
<v Speaker 1>we tend to be of a libertarian bent around here,

0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.200
<v Speaker 1>but the idea of value, including myself, right, right, But

0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.319
<v Speaker 1>the idea of an individual having instantaneous global reach is

0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of a new thing for mankind. Well, I would

0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.960
<v Speaker 1>argue that this notion that I believe that when you

0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:22.160
<v Speaker 1>wake up in the morning, you have a choice. Am

0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:23.280
<v Speaker 1>I going to go to work? Am I going to

0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.640
<v Speaker 1>stay home? Am I gonna have breakfast? Not at breakfast?

0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Exercise not exercise. That's called free will. If you're a libertarian,

0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.720
<v Speaker 1>you believe each of us has the ability to control

0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:33.880
<v Speaker 1>our own lives. And what I'm talking about is that

0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.720
<v Speaker 1>these companies, in their pursuit of efficiency, want to take

0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.800
<v Speaker 1>our right to choose away from us because it's more

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.040
<v Speaker 1>profitable to do it that way. And I sit there

0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.920
<v Speaker 1>and go, hang on, pal, you're not elected, right, you're

0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:53.000
<v Speaker 1>not accountable. We have to change that lack of accountability.

0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.120
<v Speaker 1>They have enormous power. There's no denying that huge power.

0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.360
<v Speaker 1>And the thing is, if you're a libertarian, right, if

0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.679
<v Speaker 1>you believe each one of us should be responsible for

0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 1>our own situation, each one us get to make our

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.800
<v Speaker 1>own choices, then you have to stand up and say

0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.559
<v Speaker 1>stop this. Because the deal is they can still provide

0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.520
<v Speaker 1>these services just with targeted advertising. They don't need to

0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.960
<v Speaker 1>do the manipulation. They do not need to do the

0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of stuff that's coming. And I'm sitting there going, guys,

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 1>I understand you didn't do this because you're bad people.

0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.840
<v Speaker 1>You did this because nobody told you it wasn't okay.

0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 1>Well now I'm telling us, like, think of this the

0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 1>chemical industry, right, they used to be able to dump

0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.680
<v Speaker 1>mercury and fresh water, leave mind tailings on the side

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.920
<v Speaker 1>of the hill, pour used oil into the sewer, and

0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.160
<v Speaker 1>then we woke up and realized, wait a minute, those

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 1>externalities cast society a lot. People get sick, the environment's polluted.

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.760
<v Speaker 1>We should make the people who create that toxics bill

0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.360
<v Speaker 1>pay for the cost. I'm saying now, we have toxic

0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.240
<v Speaker 1>digital spills, and we need these guys to pay that

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.000
<v Speaker 1>cost and change the incentives, and we need to give

0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.600
<v Speaker 1>each one of us control of our lives back. Roger

0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.719
<v Speaker 1>mcne the book is zucked waking up to the Facebook catastrophe.

0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 1>We need to talk again, Rogers, my friends, you guys

0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.280
<v Speaker 1>are the best. I love the show and you're just

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.360
<v Speaker 1>an honor to be on with you. You're too kind.

0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:09.319
<v Speaker 1>All right, Thanks, it's good to talk, and we do it.

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.480
<v Speaker 1>Let's let's make it happen. Yes, so he sounded like

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.040
<v Speaker 1>he met that too. I know he's brilliant actor nor

0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.320
<v Speaker 1>sincere and I want to care. Frankly, I don't care. Which.

0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.040
<v Speaker 1>We gotta follow up on this when we come back. Yeah,

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.600
<v Speaker 1>the book is fascinating. I mean it is great, and

0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.320
<v Speaker 1>I got no reason to tout it other than I

0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 1>mean it. This could be the story of the future

0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.200
<v Speaker 1>of the world dealing with this parents. I insist you

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.680
<v Speaker 1>read it. You're listening to the Armstrong and Getty Show.

0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 1>Conscience of the nation,