Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
Speaker 1: welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
Speaker 1: mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I'm your host, Rams' job, he.
Speaker 2: Is Rams' jah, I am q war. Do you I
Speaker 2: turned into Civic cyclent.
Speaker 1: Died you are and we're going to need you to
Speaker 1: stick around today. We've been noticing, uh, increasingly noticing that
Speaker 1: we are living in a divided society. We've been noticing
Speaker 1: that for the past four years since we've known the show.
Speaker 2: Drake and Kendrick really do have the country and that
Speaker 2: really stood out to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that too, that too. But in addition to that,
Speaker 1: what we're seeing happening on college campuses really illustrates that,
Speaker 1: you know, even something as far away as a war
Speaker 1: in Gaza can have significant locasions here stateside, and there
Speaker 1: are people that feel one way about it and people
Speaker 1: that feel another way about it. On this show, where
Speaker 1: of the persuasion that you know, Palestine needs to be free,
Speaker 1: and we end up having conversations with people who feel like,
Speaker 1: how would I say Israel has a right to defend itself?
Speaker 1: That's probably what they would stand.
Speaker 2: On, right yeah, those those are not inherently conflicting ideals.
Speaker 1: Though, right right, But that's of it is what makes
Speaker 1: the problem. But they would base their they would base
Speaker 1: their argument around that, and we end up having to
Speaker 1: talk to people who have differing opinions. And sometimes we
Speaker 1: are successful and we'd like to share our best practices
Speaker 1: with you when we have those successful ones. And then
Speaker 1: sometimes we learn, and we're going to hopefully be able
Speaker 1: to share with you what we learn when you know,
Speaker 1: those conversations devolve, but you know, hopefully this helps you
Speaker 1: in your activism and in your pursuit of a more
Speaker 1: equitable world for all. But before we get there, it's
Speaker 1: time for some ebony excellence.
Speaker 2: Shall we?
Speaker 1: I think we shall.
Speaker 2: This week's Ebony Excellence is brought to you by Actively Black.
Speaker 2: Visit actively black dot com. There is greatness in our DNA.
Speaker 2: The story comes from twelve news dot com in Tempe, Arizona.
Speaker 2: While most eighteen year olds are trying to choose what
Speaker 2: college to attend, one is wrapping up her college career.
Speaker 2: Dorothy Gene Tilman stands out this graduation season not just
Speaker 2: because of her age, but also her list of accomplishments.
Speaker 2: Tilman a student at Arizona State University. Has earned her
Speaker 2: associate degree at eleven years old, earned her bachelor's degree
Speaker 2: at thirteen, and was just fifteen when she completed the
Speaker 2: master's program. Now eighteen, Tillman has earned her doctorate in
Speaker 2: behavioral health. She says, and I quote, I never really
Speaker 2: thought that this would be like what it turned into,
Speaker 2: she said, once I started, you know, getting into higher education,
Speaker 2: kind of just every time I complete something, I thought like,
Speaker 2: what's next, and now I'm here, wow. End quote. Aside
Speaker 2: from her numerous degrees, Tillman also started a leadership institute
Speaker 2: where she teaches children in Chicago and West Africa about science, technology, engineering, arts,
Speaker 2: and math. She hopes to use all that she has
Speaker 2: learned to change lives. More than twenty thousand Arizona State
Speaker 2: University students graduated Monday night, signaling the end of their
Speaker 2: undergraduate years in college. Seven thousand, including Tillman, received their
Speaker 2: postgraduate degrees Monday morning, the largest graduation in Arizona State
Speaker 2: University history. And that young lady, it was hard for
Speaker 2: me to even finish reading that story from the first
Speaker 2: accomplishment associated we ad eleven years old, froze me. I
Speaker 2: had to push myself to keep reading her that all
Speaker 2: that she's doing, and to have the immediate space in
Speaker 2: her mind to say, I want to give back, I
Speaker 2: want to teach help and mentor others. Salute to her,
Speaker 2: and we will be following her story moving forward.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's very special, all right. So how to
Speaker 1: talk to someone with a different opinion, different political opinion.
Speaker 1: So we're in this space, as you can imagine, we
Speaker 1: have a radio show with I mean, these shouldn't be
Speaker 1: radical opinions and views, they shouldn't be at all. We
Speaker 1: only pursue equitable treatment for everyone. And sometimes equity means
Speaker 1: these people get a little bit more consideration than these people.
Speaker 1: That's the nature of equity. And we have to appeal
Speaker 1: to people who sometimes feel like equity means that they
Speaker 1: lose something. Equality even means that they lose something or
Speaker 1: otherwise they think that equality solves all of the problems
Speaker 1: when there has indeed been a four hundred year head
Speaker 1: start on their behalf.
Speaker 2: And sadly, even in the case of the latter, even
Speaker 2: those feel like equality is taking too much away from them.
Speaker 2: So that's an interesting starting place where an inequitable reality
Speaker 2: for most has created a reality for a few who
Speaker 2: feel like even less than equity, it's too much for
Speaker 2: them to concede on your behalf because it makes something
Speaker 2: less than it was for.
Speaker 1: Them, exactly exactly. So on our path, we've had to
Speaker 1: have some challenging conversations with people who disagree with us,
Speaker 1: and the reason why we felt confident enough putting this
Speaker 1: segment together. And spoiler alert, we're working on a book
Speaker 1: about Allyship. I'd imagine that'd be out in several months.
Speaker 1: It's going to take us a while to get that
Speaker 1: on the shelves for you. But we're really passionate about
Speaker 1: this work, and we really think that we're capable of more,
Speaker 1: and with your support and your help, we think that
Speaker 1: we can actually make an impact in this world. And
Speaker 1: so that's what we're doing. But in any event, having
Speaker 1: the experience the growth that the show has experienced now
Speaker 1: being on Coast to Coast seventy plus radio stage seventy five,
Speaker 1: I think it's stations around the country, We've had many
Speaker 1: conversations with people who feel very differently about what should
Speaker 1: take place politically speaking, and yet and still we have
Speaker 1: earned these people's trust and support, and so today's conversation
Speaker 1: is not an exhaustive list, but we do hope that
Speaker 1: you can learn a little bit from what we've learned
Speaker 1: and the conversations that you do have with people who
Speaker 1: disagree with you, maybe they're in your family, maybe in
Speaker 1: the workplace, that they will penetrate a little bit deeper.
Speaker 1: Before we start, I want to share a tweet that
Speaker 1: kind of inspired this now. Charlotte reposted this on his
Speaker 1: social media charlottne and God or see the God for
Speaker 1: those on Instagram, reposted this. But the tweet was authored
Speaker 1: by a person named Stephen Barlett I believe. I believe
Speaker 1: he's the author, But it says being able to hold
Speaker 1: a strong opinion without having a visceral hatred towards everyone
Speaker 1: else that doesn't hold that opinion seems to be becoming
Speaker 1: increasingly difficult for people on social media. Right. In other words,
Speaker 1: if I have an opinion and you have a different opinion,
Speaker 1: more often is it the case that I'm going to
Speaker 1: attack than engage. Right, And before we get into any
Speaker 1: of the meat and potatoes here, let me just say
Speaker 1: full disclosure. I famously, for those that follow us on
Speaker 1: social media, I famously post in ghost I don't interact
Speaker 1: with anybody in the comments. I don't want to hear it.
Speaker 1: I know, and I all the love somehow, I feel
Speaker 1: like in my heart all the love makes its way
Speaker 1: to me, and all the negative nasty comments they don't.
Speaker 1: But the truth is is like I don't want to
Speaker 1: get burnt out on the type of good work that
Speaker 1: I think that we're doing here. And if I listen
Speaker 1: to everyone in the comments, it's very easy for me
Speaker 1: to get burned out. And I think of myself as
Speaker 1: a resilient person. But anyone can succumb to hear seeing
Speaker 1: negative comments about yourself every day. Oh it's his beard, fake,
Speaker 1: he glued his hair on. Even like superficial attacks like
Speaker 1: that they take their toll after a long time. Right,
Speaker 1: But let me tell you, let me make this social
Speaker 1: media story come to life a little bit. There's a
Speaker 1: friend of mine and a friend of this show. His
Speaker 1: name is Amy Horwitz, and he's been on the show
Speaker 1: many times, and he and I have had and Q
Speaker 1: have had some knockdown, drag out agreements. I always say
Speaker 1: that two things are true about Amy. One is that
Speaker 1: he and I agree on almost nothing. Almost nothing I
Speaker 1: would say nothing politically speaking. Number Two, I believe Amy
Speaker 1: is a good man. He loves his mom. I don't
Speaker 1: feel like he has any sort of personal anger toward me.
Speaker 1: I believe that he thinks what he's doing is right,
Speaker 1: and I believe in his human capacity for that to
Speaker 1: evolve as he learns and grows through life. Mine. Everyone
Speaker 1: deserves to be able to learn and grow, and so
Speaker 1: he's not a lost cause.
Speaker 2: But I think he has some very obvious blind spots
Speaker 2: that kind of make it hard to be a great person.
Speaker 2: And not because he does not have the capacity, which
Speaker 2: I think is important that that grace is extended. But
Speaker 2: anybody who at the same time has the capacity to
Speaker 2: view one entire group of people, well that's less than
Speaker 2: for me that that creates a It creates some hesitation
Speaker 2: with regard to how I, how I view you, when
Speaker 2: there's people who, without ever having interacted with them, you'd
Speaker 2: consider less worthy of all that we all look for
Speaker 2: and desire in life for ourselves and those that we
Speaker 2: care about.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, sure, and that's that's that's not unkind. I
Speaker 1: think that's fair. I'm just saying that these are two
Speaker 1: things that I say about Ammy. And in full disclosure,
Speaker 1: Amy is planning on coming out here to hang out
Speaker 1: with me, and I think that's beautiful, you know. I
Speaker 1: I think that Amy can learn from me, and maybe
Speaker 1: I'll even learn something from him. Who knows right, And
Speaker 1: Amy is the exact type of person that infuriates me.
Speaker 1: But I actually know this one, right, I like know him.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know him knowing, but I know
Speaker 1: his mom. I know you know, it's family and blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. Right. Anyway, now that you know a little
Speaker 1: bit out Amy, if you haven't heard any of his
Speaker 1: episodes where we were yelling at each other on the mic,
Speaker 1: Amy has a post on his social media he went
Speaker 1: to one of the protests and at New York Community
Speaker 1: College something like that, and he says, and he's a
Speaker 1: gorilla journalist, right, So he gets his camera crew and
Speaker 1: goes out there and tries to you know, he's kind
Speaker 1: of like a man on the streets type of journalist. Anyway,
Speaker 1: he goes out there with the American flag and he says,
Speaker 1: you know, hi, I'm Amy Horowitz, and today we're going
Speaker 1: to see what these protesters think when I show up
Speaker 1: with the American flag. Right, And a little bit of background,
Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with these college campus protests. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of pro Palestine protests taking place around
Speaker 1: the country, people creating encampments, barricading themselves into rooms and
Speaker 1: so forth, whatever my kind of party. I love when
Speaker 1: people like direct action. I kind of love that, right.
Speaker 1: And these people who are protesting feel like these universities
Speaker 1: need to stop, to divest from Israel, stop sending money,
Speaker 1: spending money on Israeli businesses, and they're hoping the ripple
Speaker 1: effect will be that the Israeli government will receive pressure
Speaker 1: from the Israeli businesses and the Israeli government will adopt
Speaker 1: a softer position with respect to their bombing campaigns in Gaza.
Speaker 1: These people who are protesting also feel like the United
Speaker 1: States is very very very much culpable, because the United
Speaker 1: States is actually funding the war and sending over the
Speaker 1: bombs that are being used to, you know, blow human
Speaker 1: bodies apart into pieces, the bodies of children and so forth,
Speaker 1: and this is kind of what makes those people's stomach turns.
Speaker 1: So the United States being culpable means that these group
Speaker 1: of protesters are particularly sensitive to the American flag being
Speaker 1: introduced in their decidedly anti Israeli, anti US government stance.
Speaker 2: And that's kind of part of what I mean.
Speaker 1: Right, So Ami does this, I'm sure like that to.
Speaker 2: Get that type of reaction intentionally to then ahai you
Speaker 2: and say, see this is how they feel about America.
Speaker 2: It is a very very intellectually and emotionally dishonest thing
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 2: So that again that gives me some paus Man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm glad you said that because on ami
Speaker 1: social media where he posted this, he was saying, you know,
Speaker 1: I went out there and these people they beat me
Speaker 1: up and blah blah blah. And I says, okay, Amy,
Speaker 1: Well and I explained basically what I just explained, Well,
Speaker 1: these people are they feel Israel and the United States
Speaker 1: are responsible for this, So showing up with an American
Speaker 1: flag is like kind of like antagonizing and agitating them.
Speaker 1: And so if you're going there looking for that and
Speaker 1: then you get it, it doesn't it doesn't feel like
Speaker 1: you know, and a lot of his videos I'm very
Speaker 1: critical of because it feels like that's kind of the angle.
Speaker 1: He's just like, let me figure out a way to
Speaker 1: show the people that view my footage what they want
Speaker 1: to see, not what's really there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you like a counter demonstration of
Speaker 1: counter protest, normally that it takes place across the street,
Speaker 1: you know, somewhere. You know, you don't get in the
Speaker 1: picket line with.
Speaker 2: Bringing the counter protest to the protest to then point
Speaker 2: at the protesters as bad people for responding to you. Again,
Speaker 2: sure and emotionally an intellectually dishonest and manipulative thing to do.
Speaker 1: So here's what happens. So I says I said that
Speaker 1: on his social media, and man if his people didn't
Speaker 1: rip me apart. They're like, this is America. You have
Speaker 1: a right to do. The protesters can wave the Palestinian flags,
Speaker 1: but army can't wave the American flag. Oh look at
Speaker 1: this guy, he's a goofy corn blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Some of them actually saw the page and they're like,
Speaker 1: you know, put some respect on my name because I'm him,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But they still have something
Speaker 1: to say, right, because they think I'm just a comment. Right,
Speaker 1: they don't know that I'm I get to hang out
Speaker 1: with q Ward every week, right, So they don't know
Speaker 1: that you actually, they don't know that you're an activist.
Speaker 2: That's the that's the best way to say that you're
Speaker 2: just a commenter and an ignorant commentar with it that
Speaker 2: that has nothing invested in what he's talking about, or
Speaker 2: that is as lacking in the way of being able
Speaker 2: to support his position as they are.
Speaker 1: Now here's the other part of it. Whenever I talk
Speaker 1: to Amy and and he's he hit me back with
Speaker 1: the response and I and I did check that response
Speaker 1: out because it says it's from Amy and he's he's
Speaker 1: my friend on social or civic Sipher follows Ami Horowitz.
Speaker 1: We respect him as a journalist, you know, for what
Speaker 1: that's worth, and we do it's it's it's important to
Speaker 1: have insight into how people on his side of the
Speaker 1: coin think. And what I've learned is weird. Does this
Speaker 1: sounds is? You know? Q always said this to me,
Speaker 1: and I knew he was telling me the truth, and
Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying this to me, but it didn't
Speaker 1: really become real until just this past week when I
Speaker 1: had this exchange with Amy. We agree on way more
Speaker 1: stuff than we disagree on, right, and Q was speaking
Speaker 1: I always in a more general sense about you know, Democrats, Republicans, conservative.
Speaker 2: Liberals, but human beings.
Speaker 1: Human beings.
Speaker 2: There you go.
Speaker 1: But Amy and I we disagree on everything, every single thing.
Speaker 1: But that's not really the whole story. And here's what happened.
Speaker 1: Ammy and I ended up getting on the phone together,
Speaker 1: and uh, because he said, hey, you know in the comments,
Speaker 1: he's like, hey, these people did beat me up, Ramses.
Speaker 1: I have bruises all over my body. I can send
Speaker 1: you the photographs if you want, And I says, yes, Ammy,
Speaker 1: if you send me those photographs, I'll review them and
Speaker 1: then I can put together a story with journalistic integrity
Speaker 1: and discuss it, maybe on the Black Information Network, maybe
Speaker 1: on Civic side for the show you're listening to right now.
Speaker 1: And I haven't received those yet. I'm not saying Amy
Speaker 1: is you know, he may not have seen the comment,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. But after I sent the comment, and you know,
Speaker 1: people reacted to that comment trying to rip me apart.
Speaker 1: Ammy and I got on the phone and I'll tell
Speaker 1: the story of why we got on the phone in
Speaker 1: the second half of the show. But we got on
Speaker 1: the phone and at first I shot him a text
Speaker 1: because he didn't answer the first call, and I was like,
Speaker 1: or I facetimed him, and he didn't answer, and I
Speaker 1: shot him a text. I was like, hey man, just
Speaker 1: checking up on you, hoping all is well with you
Speaker 1: and your family. And that was that. And he called
Speaker 1: me back thirty minutes something like that, and he's like,
Speaker 1: hey man, you know, I'm in the airport. Now he talks.
Speaker 1: He's like, hey man, I'm in the airport wherever he
Speaker 1: was at. And he's like, you know, I just didn't
Speaker 1: I didn't hear my phone ringing. I was like, yeah, man,
Speaker 1: you know. And then we got to talking about that
Speaker 1: that video post, and I was able to tell him that,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't love that. I do love him.
Speaker 1: I think he's his methods are more antagonistic than I
Speaker 1: would appreciate. And to be fair, you may not have
Speaker 1: the capacity the patience to be as diplomatic as as me. I.
Speaker 1: The Q always tells me I have like a special
Speaker 1: gift or something. I don't know that I do. I
Speaker 1: just I'm very committed to if I.
Speaker 2: Do know that you do, and our listeners can can
Speaker 2: understand where I'm coming from. You just finish explaining that
Speaker 2: you and Amy disagree on everything, not some things, not
Speaker 2: most things, all of it, everything, and then you follow
Speaker 2: that up with he's a great man and I love him,
Speaker 2: and that's my friend good Man. Yeah, that's a special quality, brother,
Speaker 2: that's not There's no one on this earth that I
Speaker 2: would disagree with on everything, and then follow that up
Speaker 2: by telling you how much I love and appreciate them
Speaker 2: as my friend and how great a person they are.
Speaker 2: Because disagreeing on everything means that there's some fundamental principle.
Speaker 1: Sure, and that's imposed on that's and that's very important
Speaker 1: to note too, because if if somebody's politics, what they what,
Speaker 1: they how they're they're oriented politically, how they vote, the
Speaker 1: ideas political ideas they espouse, if those things are centered
Speaker 1: firmly in the dismantling of your community, your identity as
Speaker 1: a person, your freedoms, et cetera, then it's okay. I'd
Speaker 1: imagine to escalate things a bit.
Speaker 2: But what I found our prior president, Yeah, the only
Speaker 2: time I ever had a problem with people based on
Speaker 2: how they voted was him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: My whole life, I had friends, and my mother more specifically,
Speaker 2: had friends who voted Republican Conservative, you know, people who
Speaker 2: are very very close to me and my children. I
Speaker 2: always voted Republican and conservatives. So that guy was where
Speaker 2: the line was drawn and where things started to get
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with people that I know and care about, because
Speaker 2: disagreeing on that is more than just politics.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, so watch this. Once you know that there
Speaker 1: is this former president who is kind of move the line,
Speaker 1: kind of of decency, kind of definitely one and fifty
Speaker 1: percent moved the line of what would be considered decent
Speaker 1: clear in terms of how to regard your countrymen and women,
Speaker 1: your country folk. Once you know that, at least once
Speaker 1: I know that, I start to recognize that people are
Speaker 1: kind of following that lead artificially. A great analogy and
Speaker 1: this is something that I put on social media before us.
Speaker 1: Once upon a time, Adolf Hitler won an election in Germany,
Speaker 1: and the people that voted for him started to believe
Speaker 1: what he was saying. Now, this is an extreme example,
Speaker 1: but this shows how human beings work. Okay, And then
Speaker 1: when Hitler wasn't the whatever over there anymore what's the
Speaker 1: word the fewer anymore? The people still had to be people,
Speaker 1: and they had to come to terms with the fact
Speaker 1: that they were wrong, and they had to seek forgiveness, right,
Speaker 1: but they needed a soft place to land, because there's
Speaker 1: still people and we don't want to be like you, right.
Speaker 1: What was that song Hendry put out?
Speaker 2: They not like us right, right?
Speaker 1: So we don't want to be the worst version of
Speaker 1: what we've seen. And I think that focusing more of
Speaker 1: the conversation on what we connect over. You know, again,
Speaker 1: Amy asked me about my sons. He asked me about
Speaker 1: the show, this show that exists in political opposition to
Speaker 1: one of the programming that he creates. How's the show doing.
Speaker 2: I wish some of our countrymen, like the example that
Speaker 2: you use, had moved on from those from that ideology,
Speaker 2: and instead of moving on, they seem to have doubled down.
Speaker 2: So it's the hopefulness and the example that you use
Speaker 2: of returning back to humanity and having a soft place
Speaker 2: to land that has to be desired and sought out,
Speaker 2: and that's not what these people are on.
Speaker 1: No. No, But this is a long road that we're walking,
Speaker 1: and I think that just you know, before we conclude
Speaker 1: this first half, just kind of having a little bit
Speaker 1: of space in your heart to remember I'm talking to
Speaker 1: someone who is wrong and doesn't yet know it. That
Speaker 1: goes a long way toward keeping the place a soft
Speaker 1: place for them. Land in terms of forgiveness,