Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine, Hey Bessies. Today on the bright Side, we're
Speaker 1: joined by psychologist, author, and host of the award winning
Speaker 1: podcast Therapy for Black Girls, Doctor Joy Harden Bradford is
Speaker 1: here and just in time from Mental Health Day. She's
Speaker 1: going to answer all the questions we're too afraid to
Speaker 1: ask about therapy. It's Wednesday, October ninth. I'm Simone Boyce.
Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe and this is the bright Side from
Speaker 2: Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we come together to
Speaker 2: share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten your day.
Speaker 1: Today's Wellness Wednesday is presented by Coligard.
Speaker 3: Simone.
Speaker 2: Tomorrow ten ten is World Mental Health Day, which, according
Speaker 2: to the World Health Organization, is a day dedicated to
Speaker 2: raising awareness and mobilizing efforts in support of mental health.
Speaker 2: So today we are dedicating Wellness Wednesday to mental health
Speaker 2: and specifically we're focusing on therapy.
Speaker 1: Danielle, I feel like the word therapy means so many
Speaker 1: different things to so many different people. So today we
Speaker 1: wanted to set aside some time to ask all the
Speaker 1: questions you may have been afraid to ask and get
Speaker 1: answers from a therapist perspective. Questions like is my therapist
Speaker 1: judging me when I drop all my baggage at their door.
Speaker 1: What kind of therapy is right for me? And how
Speaker 1: do you know when it's time for you and your
Speaker 1: therapist to part ways? Mm?
Speaker 3: Is my therapist judging me?
Speaker 1: That's what I've always wondered.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I talk about therapy a lot,
Speaker 2: and not in the way that I'm trying to like
Speaker 2: drop a quote from a therapist, but it's been such
Speaker 2: a helpful tool for me. I remember when I was younger,
Speaker 2: I felt frustrated all the time, and in my communication
Speaker 2: I would get an email and I would see I
Speaker 2: didn't know how to reply, or if I was in
Speaker 2: conflict with a friend or a loved one, I didn't
Speaker 2: know how to approach it.
Speaker 3: And now it's not like those.
Speaker 2: Things are any easier necessarily, but I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: so much less frustrated because I have communication tools. How
Speaker 2: do you feel because I know you've dipped in and out?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one. I've tried several different types of therapy,
Speaker 1: and I think that's an important part of the conversation.
Speaker 1: We talk a lot about one on one talk therapy,
Speaker 1: but there are so many different forms that can be
Speaker 1: helpful and that can serve you. And earlier this year,
Speaker 1: I tried group therapy and I was such a skeptic
Speaker 1: at the beginning, but completely blown away by the results
Speaker 1: at the end. And one thing the therapist told us
Speaker 1: before we walked into this experience was that you're going
Speaker 1: to be shocked by how much of your healing comes
Speaker 1: from watching other people here.
Speaker 3: That's really cool.
Speaker 2: I've tried CBT, which was my first introduction to therapy,
Speaker 2: and it was helpful. I don't know if it was
Speaker 2: the best for me. What I've landed on is gestalt therapy,
Speaker 2: and gestalt is like the practice. It's a regular talk therapy,
Speaker 2: but it's the practice of being in relationship to something
Speaker 2: all the time. You could even be in relationship to
Speaker 2: a tree or a chair. But that that has helped.
Speaker 2: I think I'm like relationally focused, so it makes sense.
Speaker 2: But there's still so many versions I want to try,
Speaker 2: and there's no one size.
Speaker 3: Fits all approach. It's all super personal.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of family members who refuse to
Speaker 2: go to therapy.
Speaker 3: Oh no, And.
Speaker 2: If you're listening, I'm not saying you all need it,
Speaker 2: but you need it maybe but maybe no, But what
Speaker 2: I've learned is that it is really personal. I think
Speaker 2: one of the hesitations I've heard from family members is
Speaker 2: it feels like it's opening Pandora's box. It can be
Speaker 2: very painful. I have to be honest. The first two
Speaker 2: years of therapy, I was sitting on my couch crying
Speaker 2: a whole lot. I still cry in therapy, but not
Speaker 2: like I used to. It is a little bit about
Speaker 2: opening Pandora's box. Not everybody wants to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's super confronting.
Speaker 1: Well, hey, maybe this is a great episode to send
Speaker 1: to your family members who might be verra curious.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm actually really sad.
Speaker 2: I was way for this conversation and I can't wait
Speaker 2: to hear everything you chatted about with today's guest.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's perfect timing in honor of World Mental Health Day.
Speaker 1: I truly just fell in love with doctor joy Hard
Speaker 1: and Bradford and the work that she does. I can
Speaker 1: see why so many people love her because she just
Speaker 1: has this like calming energy about her that makes you
Speaker 1: want to trust her instantly. She's a licensed psychologist, the
Speaker 1: author of Sisterhood Heels, and the founder and host of
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls. I'm so excited for you and
Speaker 1: our Brightside bessies to hear this interview. Here's my conversation
Speaker 1: with doctor Joy, Hard and Bradford. Welcome to the bright Side,
Speaker 1: doctor Joy, Bradford, very happy to be here with you, Samo.
Speaker 1: So tomorrow is World Mental Health Day, and I think
Speaker 1: a lot of our bright Side besties who are listening
Speaker 1: have questions about therapy, where to start, and what the
Speaker 1: benefits are. So I'm thrilled that we get to talk
Speaker 1: to you today because you are such an essential voice
Speaker 1: in this space, as evidenced by the fact that in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one you want a web Be Award for
Speaker 1: your podcast Therapy for Black Girls. And in your acceptance speech,
Speaker 1: you said, I am because we are. Tell us what
Speaker 1: those five words mean to you, Yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Think it really means that community is the backbone of
Speaker 4: everything that we do, and I feel like that has
Speaker 4: kind of been a model for my life. I really
Speaker 4: want to be of service to people through mental health
Speaker 4: awareness and breaking the stigma related to mental health. And
Speaker 4: so those five words felt like a great acceptance speech
Speaker 4: for a speech that only requires five words.
Speaker 1: And I found this quote on your website too. It
Speaker 1: said a lot of times when we talk about mental
Speaker 1: illness or mental health. I think there's a lot missing
Speaker 1: from the conversation. What did you think was missing from
Speaker 1: the conversation when you became a therapist, and what did
Speaker 1: you think that you could contribute to it.
Speaker 4: I think that I've always felt that there was a
Speaker 4: lot missing as it relates to communities of color. So
Speaker 4: we know that a lot of the interventions, a lot
Speaker 4: of the theories that we use as therapists are all
Speaker 4: kind of created for and by straight white men in
Speaker 4: and so there's of course a lot that is missing
Speaker 4: from the conversation where you're talking about using those same
Speaker 4: techniques on people who are not straight white men. And
Speaker 4: so I think that there's a lot of conversation and
Speaker 4: information missing as it relates to what therapy looks like
Speaker 4: in communities of color, how symptoms may even look different
Speaker 4: in our communities. And so I really have aimed to
Speaker 4: have therapy for black girls, and the work that I've
Speaker 4: done as a part of my career be an effort
Speaker 4: to kind of create some of that work, right, to
Speaker 4: be able to kind of give voice and look at
Speaker 4: different ways that healing happens in communities of color.
Speaker 1: Okay, you have to forgive me joy because I'm on
Speaker 1: my period right now, so my emotions are all over
Speaker 1: the place. So I'm probably going to get emotional during
Speaker 1: this interview. But I got emotional as I was preparing
Speaker 1: for this interview with you because I was raised by
Speaker 1: a black mom who I don't think ever had the
Speaker 1: option of doing therapy when she was a little girl,
Speaker 1: and she went through some stuff, and her sisters went
Speaker 1: through some stuff, and her parents went or some stuff,
Speaker 1: but it was always swept under the rug. And as
Speaker 1: I was preparing for this conversation, I was really struck
Speaker 1: by this idea of the generational impact of therapy and
Speaker 1: this specific question, how would my life look different if
Speaker 1: my mom had gotten therapy as a young woman. Can
Speaker 1: you speak to the collective healing aspect of this?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that feels so important. I appreciate you sharing that
Speaker 4: with us today and even thinking about my own family, right, like,
Speaker 4: when I think about, like, oh, what kinds of conversations
Speaker 4: did we have about mental health? There weren't any directly,
Speaker 4: but I definitely remember, like my mother and my aunties
Speaker 4: talking about their nerves being bad.
Speaker 1: Right, So now I know that what they were.
Speaker 4: Describing was anxiety, but at the time they didn't have
Speaker 4: language for that, right, And it sounds like the same
Speaker 4: thing with your mom and your family, right, Like so
Speaker 4: many things that have happened in our lives and in
Speaker 4: our family's lives have been traumatic, but we didn't use
Speaker 4: the word trauma, right, Like, I think for a lot
Speaker 4: of us, it was just what life was. And so
Speaker 4: it is only now in looking back that we were able
Speaker 4: to say, like, oh, that was really a big deal,
Speaker 4: and more care should have been taken, more support should
Speaker 4: have been offered after that thing happened. And so I
Speaker 4: think the fact that we are having these kinds of
Speaker 4: conversations today, the fact that we are talking to our
Speaker 4: girlfriends and our children and our sisters now about these things,
Speaker 4: means that our mothers and grandmothers also are feeling some
Speaker 4: of that, right, Like they are also able to reimagine, like, oh,
Speaker 4: that thing that happened to me was traumatic, and like
Speaker 4: I can give myself grace and I can take care
Speaker 4: of myself when difficult things happen. And so I think
Speaker 4: that that is really where some of that generational healing happens,
Speaker 4: in that we are now having these conversations, we're going
Speaker 4: to therapy. We're doing the kinds of things that our
Speaker 4: mothers and grandmothers didn't even have language for.
Speaker 1: You know, the statistics back up everything you're saying about
Speaker 1: the disparities and the stigma surrounding mental health issues, particularly
Speaker 1: in communities of color. I mean, statistics show that most
Speaker 1: therapists are white women, twenty five percent of therapists identify
Speaker 1: as minorities. And you've been so outspoken about the importance
Speaker 1: of having a therapist who can provide culturally informed services
Speaker 1: for patients. Why is that piece of this so important.
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of research that talks about
Speaker 4: even like depression, how depression symptoms look different in communities
Speaker 4: of colors, especially Black women, right, So, I think in
Speaker 4: a lot of Black women, depression often presents as a
Speaker 4: more physical kind of symptoms and more stomach aches, more headaches,
Speaker 4: And when you think about it, it kind of makes
Speaker 4: sense because we have not had the luxury of being
Speaker 4: able to sit in a corner and cry like that
Speaker 4: is not typically our lived experience, and so of course
Speaker 4: symptoms may look very different. But if you don't have
Speaker 4: a provider who knows to look for a different range
Speaker 4: of symptoms, then things can be missed, and so it's
Speaker 4: really important that we are at the table in terms
Speaker 4: of being providers, so that we are kind of being
Speaker 4: attuned to the ways that our culture shapes how we
Speaker 4: talk about mental health. The relationships we have to faith
Speaker 4: and spirituality. I think have been demonized when people of
Speaker 4: color are not actually the providers because they don't have
Speaker 4: the understanding and the context to the role that faith
Speaker 4: and religion has in our lives. And so I think
Speaker 4: that we just add much more to the table and
Speaker 4: much more to the conversation that make sure that people
Speaker 4: are then getting the care that they actually deserve.
Speaker 1: You are named a game changer by Glamour. You are
Speaker 1: truly one of the pioneers who is actively reducing the
Speaker 1: stigma surrounding mental health and therapy. When you survey the landscape,
Speaker 1: where do you think we are with that stigma right now?
Speaker 1: I think we've come a very far away.
Speaker 4: Like, I think we've done a lot of incredible work,
Speaker 4: but I think that there are still more work to
Speaker 4: be done, right, Like, I don't know that we're ever
Speaker 4: really finished. Just by the fact that we are having
Speaker 4: this conversation, so many young people are sharing their experiences
Speaker 4: with therapy online. Every time somebody who's a public figure
Speaker 4: or somebody who has a large platform talk about like
Speaker 4: their own struggles with mental health or mental illness, it
Speaker 4: makes it more okay for other people to say, like, oh,
Speaker 4: I didn't know that this was a thing that you
Speaker 4: could talk with the therapist about, or oh, I don't
Speaker 4: feel so alone because other people feel this way as well.
Speaker 4: And so I think the more that we talk about it,
Speaker 4: the more that we share our experiences, we're continuing to
Speaker 4: really chip away at that stigma.
Speaker 1: Well, you brought up young people being really engaged in
Speaker 1: this conversation, and I think there's a really interesting dynamic there.
Speaker 1: It feels like, and I would need to look at
Speaker 1: the research on this, but it feels like we are
Speaker 1: the first generation that is prioritizing therapy in such a
Speaker 1: powerful way. Why do you think that is? Like, why
Speaker 1: do you think things are changing with us and with
Speaker 1: the youth? You know?
Speaker 4: So, I think some of it is related to school
Speaker 4: counselors in school. So I don't know about you, but
Speaker 4: when I was in school, like the school counselor really
Speaker 4: was only in charge of like scheduling, like they didn't
Speaker 4: actually talk to you about any kind of mental health concerns.
Speaker 4: School counselors now actually are there to tend to the
Speaker 4: socio emotional needs of students, like dealing with big feelings
Speaker 4: and how to meditate and all of these kinds of
Speaker 4: things that are really helpful in giving kids language to
Speaker 4: describe their interior experiences. I also think that, you know,
Speaker 4: because so many of us are aware of the kinds
Speaker 4: of things that there could be helpful for, we're also
Speaker 4: talking to our kids about it or getting kids support
Speaker 4: when they needed, you know. I definitely think a byproduct
Speaker 4: of the pandemic was that so many people were struggling,
Speaker 4: right and we know that kids especially were really hit
Speaker 4: hard by being pulled away from their social connections and
Speaker 4: you know, all the things that they were used to,
Speaker 4: and so a lot of kids needed some additional support.
Speaker 4: And so I think because people are recognizing that kids
Speaker 4: have feelings that they need to tend to as well,
Speaker 4: it is easier for young people to continue to talk
Speaker 4: more about this much more openly.
Speaker 1: It's time for a short break, but we'll be right
Speaker 1: back to wellness Wednesday with doctor joy Hard and Bradford.
Speaker 1: And we're back with doctor joy Hard and Bradford. For
Speaker 1: people who have never done therapy before, can you talk
Speaker 1: a bit about the value of a therapist, like, what
Speaker 1: does a therapist uniquely bring to your interior experience as
Speaker 1: opposed to just talking to a friend offloading to a spouse.
Speaker 1: What are the benefits here? I think it does.
Speaker 4: Largely feel like a very foreign experience. Even though so
Speaker 4: many of us are talking, you still don't really know
Speaker 4: what's happening behind the closed doors. Are in the private zoom, right,
Speaker 4: And I think the difference of talking to a therapist
Speaker 4: versus like a friend or somebody else in your life
Speaker 4: is that it is much more about you. So when
Speaker 4: you're talking to a friend, like you might vent and
Speaker 4: talk about what's going on with you, and there's also
Speaker 4: the expectation that your friend is going to talk about
Speaker 4: what's going on with them, yes, whereas with a therapist,
Speaker 4: they're there really to just hold space for you and
Speaker 4: your concerns, which I think is also a little weird
Speaker 4: because it's like, I'm sharing all this information about you,
Speaker 4: but I know nothing about what's happening with a therapist
Speaker 4: one hundred percent. That's how it's designed, that's how it's
Speaker 4: designed to be, right, and I think it is a
Speaker 4: great experience because so many of us don't actually slow
Speaker 4: down or have those spaces where like people are actually
Speaker 4: centering our needs, and so therapy, I think is really
Speaker 4: great to be able to just give you space to
Speaker 4: talk through whatever is going on with you.
Speaker 1: It's actually a place to be selfish, yes, which is
Speaker 1: kind of nice. And as you get older, it's rare
Speaker 1: to find those opportunities as you add more responsibilities into
Speaker 1: your life. Exactly. You know you brought up the awkwardness
Speaker 1: of like sharing all of your dirty laundry with a therapist, right,
Speaker 1: I have so been there. I think anybody who has
Speaker 1: done therapy has felt that feeling of like that first
Speaker 1: meeting with a therapist. It's so scary it takes a
Speaker 1: lot of bravery. I got invited to this group therapy
Speaker 1: retreat earlier this year, and at the beginning of it,
Speaker 1: they asked all of us to pick a spot in
Speaker 1: the room based on how scared we were to start
Speaker 1: this experience. None of us knew each other. A couple
Speaker 1: of people knew each other, but it was mostly strangers,
Speaker 1: and so it was only me and my friend Mariah,
Speaker 1: who are all the way on the terrified side of
Speaker 1: the scale, isolated from everyone else, and we were like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk to y'all. I'm not sharing
Speaker 1: my secrets. I don't know any of y'all. Y'all gonna
Speaker 1: go around town spread my business. But once I started
Speaker 1: to feel the trust and trust the process and open
Speaker 1: up my heart, the healing from that point on was magical.
Speaker 1: And I think the healing in therapy, if you surrender
Speaker 1: to it, is truly magical.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, first of all, I love that you talked
Speaker 4: about like a group therapy experience, because group therapy is
Speaker 4: actually my favorite way to practice therapy because I think
Speaker 4: what you just said right, like, there's probably something that
Speaker 4: happened in that weekend or week however long y'all been
Speaker 4: together that it might take six months to a year
Speaker 4: for you to get to with an individual therapy, And
Speaker 4: so group therapy really just kind of pours gasoline on
Speaker 4: healing in a lot of ways because there are just
Speaker 4: so many more people to kind of project off of,
Speaker 4: and all of this stuff is like in the room
Speaker 4: at the same time.
Speaker 1: So I love that you talked about it. On that note,
Speaker 1: they were like, watch, sixty percent of your healing is
Speaker 1: going to come from watching someone else's healing, and it
Speaker 1: was so true everything you said. I stand ten toes
Speaker 1: down on it because it was like six months of
Speaker 1: therapy packed into five days. I'm always afraid, though, that
Speaker 1: therapists are going to judge me and think my baggage
Speaker 1: is worse than everyone else's. So will you share what
Speaker 1: that first meeting is like? From a therapist perspective.
Speaker 4: The concern around your therapist judging you is a very
Speaker 4: common one. So I just want to first normalize this
Speaker 4: idea that it is very weird and awkward to be
Speaker 4: talking to a stranger about some very personal stuff. But
Speaker 4: I also want you to trust that your therapist has
Speaker 4: been trained to be able to hear all these things
Speaker 4: that you feel like and because it's your personal experience,
Speaker 4: you feel like nobody else in the world has ever
Speaker 4: felt this way or has had any of these experiences.
Speaker 4: But as a therapist, we've also had the experience of
Speaker 4: hearing multiple people share things that are probably very similar
Speaker 4: to what you're sharing, and so even if the content
Speaker 4: is not the same as like another client, we've heard
Speaker 4: a lot of things, and so you can trust that
Speaker 4: you are not shocking your therapists that we've done enough
Speaker 4: training to be able to hold whatever it is that
Speaker 4: you come into the room with. But I also want
Speaker 4: to give you permission that if you feel judged by
Speaker 4: your therapist, to tell them that, because I think that
Speaker 4: that is also a great way to just practice advocating
Speaker 4: for yourself. Therapy, I think is cool in so many
Speaker 4: different ways. But one of my favorite things about therapy
Speaker 4: is that it allows you to have some difficult conversations
Speaker 4: that you might not have in other places in your life.
Speaker 4: So being able to tell the therapist, who is in
Speaker 4: a bit of an authority role, hey, I'm kind of
Speaker 4: feeling judged by this thing that I shared with you,
Speaker 4: and then you be able to talk to your therapist
Speaker 4: about that and them share whether they are are judging
Speaker 4: you or not. Really is a great conversation that provides
Speaker 4: a model for you to have those same kinds of
Speaker 4: conversations and other places in your life.
Speaker 1: That piece that you mentioned about feeling like no one
Speaker 1: has ever experienced problems like mine, and no one's going
Speaker 1: through my struggles, nobody understands, and then only to find
Speaker 1: out that as a therapist you see some of the
Speaker 1: same recurring themes come up over and over again. Wow,
Speaker 1: what a powerful reminder and something to keep in mind
Speaker 1: as we're spiraling. You know, what are some of those
Speaker 1: recurring themes that keep coming up?
Speaker 4: So I think anxiety has been for years the number
Speaker 4: one the most diagnosed mental health condition, and especially kind
Speaker 4: of coming out of the pandemic. I think the pandemic
Speaker 4: also provided this opportunity for people to really reimagine and
Speaker 4: re examine their values. I think lots of people are
Speaker 4: trying to come to groups with I thought that this
Speaker 4: thing was really important in my life, but now it
Speaker 4: isn't so much, and so what does that mean for
Speaker 4: the rest of my life? So lots of transitions like
Speaker 4: purpose in life kinds of things, and lots of anxiety.
Speaker 1: For patients who are looking for a therapist who is
Speaker 1: a person of color, will you tell us more about
Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls database, Lo, this is huge?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So we have over six thousand therapists across
Speaker 4: the country and in Canada who really love doing great
Speaker 4: work with black women and girls. So they don't necessarily
Speaker 4: see black women and girls exclusively, but they really want
Speaker 4: to make sure that they are able to be found.
Speaker 4: And so I'm just so excited that, like so many
Speaker 4: people have become members of our directory and really want
Speaker 4: to be found by clients. And I think when you
Speaker 4: are looking for a therapist, it is a bit like dating, right,
Speaker 4: Like you are trying to see who's going to be
Speaker 4: the best fit for you. And I encourage people even
Speaker 4: though I know it's so hard, because, especially if you've
Speaker 4: been wanting to do therapy for a long time, you
Speaker 4: finally have the bravery to make that call, and then
Speaker 4: you maybe go to a couple of sessions and you're like, oh,
Speaker 4: I don't know that this person is actually a great
Speaker 4: fit for me. That it's totally okay because the first
Speaker 4: therapist is not necessarily going to be the best fit
Speaker 4: for you, And so I think it is okay to
Speaker 4: kind of continue to try different therapists until you find
Speaker 4: somebody who's actually going to.
Speaker 1: Be a great fit for you. How do you know
Speaker 1: when it's the right fit?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I often use this example, you know,
Speaker 4: you sometimes like we go to a dentist who doesn't
Speaker 4: have the greatest bedside manner, but they're like an excellent dentist,
Speaker 4: and so we go because it's like, oh, I only
Speaker 4: see them once or twice a year. Right with your therapist,
Speaker 4: It's likely not going to be that you're gonna want
Speaker 4: to find somebody who has a great bedside manner or
Speaker 4: somebody who you really feel like you click with, because
Speaker 4: you're likely going to be meeting with them on a
Speaker 4: weekly or maybe every other week. Basis, the number one
Speaker 4: key to success in the therapeutic relationship is the relationship
Speaker 4: that you have with your therapist. So no matter how
Speaker 4: we practice, no matter what our degree is in, if
Speaker 4: the relationship with the therapist is strong, you're more likely
Speaker 4: to see success in therapy. I do think it's also
Speaker 4: really important to make sure that the therapist has training
Speaker 4: in the thing that you are coming to them for. Right,
Speaker 4: So you might find a therapist's website and follow them
Speaker 4: on social and you're like, oh, I really love their personality,
Speaker 4: But if they're not trained in the thing that you
Speaker 4: are needing assistance with, it's probably not going to be
Speaker 4: helpful for you.
Speaker 1: So let's say that you've been going to therapy for
Speaker 1: a minute, you have a good relationship with your therapist,
Speaker 1: it can still sometimes be hard to bring up the
Speaker 1: issues that you want to talk about. What would you
Speaker 1: say to someone who has something that they know that
Speaker 1: they need to unpack with their practitioner, but it feels
Speaker 1: difficult or shameful to bring it up in their session.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So first, I think it is important to be
Speaker 4: okay that it is slow to warm up to some people, right,
Speaker 4: Like that is a part of what it means to
Speaker 4: develop healthy relationships with other people is that you kind
Speaker 4: of feel them out, like, okay, can I trust this person?
Speaker 4: And so that's totally okay that you don't then necessarily
Speaker 4: feel comfortable sharing everything in your first session. But if
Speaker 4: you are feeling anxious or you're a little worried and
Speaker 4: you know there's something you want to share that you
Speaker 4: just can't quite bring yourself to share, I would say
Speaker 4: to share that, to share that there is something I
Speaker 4: want to tell you and it's feeling very difficult for
Speaker 4: me to bring it up, And then you will likely
Speaker 4: have an incredible conversation with your therapist about what's making
Speaker 4: it difficult. In what other places in your life do
Speaker 4: you have difficulty disclosing you know, things like this, who
Speaker 4: has made you feel bad about this thing in the past, Like,
Speaker 4: there's incredible, excellent work that can be done without you
Speaker 4: ever even bringing up the thing, and then I think
Speaker 4: that those conversations then make it easier. They're almost a
Speaker 4: gateway to you feeling okay, this person gets me. I
Speaker 4: think I can trust them, and then it is much
Speaker 4: easier to share whatever the thing is.
Speaker 1: I love that advice exactly when it comes to the
Speaker 1: idea of like ending a relationship with the therapist. I
Speaker 1: thought you had some really interesting thoughts on this on
Speaker 1: your Therapy for Black Girls podcast. This you talked about
Speaker 1: this online phenomenon of people saying that they were fired
Speaker 1: by their therapist. Can you unpack that a little describe
Speaker 1: a center car on which a therapist would tell a
Speaker 1: client that they won't be continuing the therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I think for a lot of clients that feels
Speaker 4: very hard to hear sometimes because of what we talked
Speaker 4: about earlier, like this idea that I'm too much and
Speaker 4: so even this therapist now feels like I'm too much
Speaker 4: for them to work with.
Speaker 1: But there are some very good.
Speaker 4: Cases why a therapist might feel like I'm not doing
Speaker 4: the best service to you because maybe you are presenting
Speaker 4: with a concern that I don't actually have expertise with,
Speaker 4: right So maybe you came in talking about anxiety, and
Speaker 4: you know, I felt like I had a good grasp
Speaker 4: on that, but then as we continue to talk, maybe
Speaker 4: there's something else going on that I don't have the
Speaker 4: appropriate training, and it would be more damaging for me
Speaker 4: to kind of continue working with you as opposed to
Speaker 4: referring you to somebody who does have training in whatever
Speaker 4: the thing is. So I think when people are talking
Speaker 4: about being fired, usually what has happened is that the
Speaker 4: therapist feels like, Okay, I've maxed out on my skills
Speaker 4: here and I don't know that I'm actually going to
Speaker 4: be the best person to help you anymore.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important to remember that there are
Speaker 1: so many different types of therapy too. Like I had
Speaker 1: a really successful experience with EMDR therapy, which involves this track,
Speaker 1: this movement between your eyes and honestly it's kind of
Speaker 1: magical and mystical. I don't know how to explain it,
Speaker 1: but it helps you repackage and reprocess your trauma. There's
Speaker 1: you know, attachment based therapy, there's cognitive behavioral therapy. How
Speaker 1: do people figure out what is the best kind of
Speaker 1: therapy for them? Like, where do you start in terms
Speaker 1: of being your own best advocate.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think when people see all of that,
Speaker 4: it can be really overwhelming, especially if you're new to therapy. Now,
Speaker 4: I think for people who are kind of therapy savvy,
Speaker 4: maybe they work with therapists before they kind of know like, Okay,
Speaker 4: I already tried cognitive behavioral and now I want to
Speaker 4: try EMDR are something different. But I think as a
Speaker 4: new person kind of coming into therapy, which you really
Speaker 4: want to look at is do they have success helping
Speaker 4: people through whatever it is that you want them to
Speaker 4: help you through, because there are lots of different ways
Speaker 4: to get to healing, as we already talked about, right like, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, the way I practice therapy may look very
Speaker 4: different from the way that somebody practices emd R, but
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that you can't still get good results
Speaker 4: regardless of.
Speaker 1: How we practice. We have to take another quick break,
Speaker 1: but we'll be right back with doctor joy Hard and
Speaker 1: Bradford and we're back. As much as we have normalized
Speaker 1: this conversation around therapy and mental health, and you've been
Speaker 1: a huge part of that, there are still some barriers
Speaker 1: in the way. For a lot of people. Therapy can
Speaker 1: be expensive. I know that in the past, when I
Speaker 1: haven't been able to afford it, it's been easy to
Speaker 1: be like, well, I guess I can't do therapy right now,
Speaker 1: or I guess I can't even heal right now. What
Speaker 1: are some practices that we can try by ourselves that
Speaker 1: might be helpful in our healing process if therapy isn't
Speaker 1: on the table right now.
Speaker 4: So I want to first just offer people some resources
Speaker 4: because to your point, like you are correct that therapy
Speaker 4: can be very expensive, But there are lots of organizations
Speaker 4: that offer either vouchers for therapy or like half therapists
Speaker 4: who offers some of their sessions at a much discounted rate.
Speaker 4: So the Loveland Foundation is a great organization that provides vouchers,
Speaker 4: especially for women of color who are interested in therapy.
Speaker 4: The Open Path Collective is another organization that has therapists
Speaker 4: who offer their services at a sliding scale. I also
Speaker 4: encourage people to make sure that you're looking at your benefits.
Speaker 4: So if you are employed at a place that has
Speaker 4: like an EAP program, sometimes you can get like six
Speaker 4: to eight, maybe even twelve sessions completely covered without even
Speaker 4: having to use your insurance because your workplace participates in
Speaker 4: an EAP program, So definitely make sure you check out
Speaker 4: those options if you do actually want to go to therapy.
Speaker 4: But cost is an issue. But to your question around
Speaker 4: like what kinds of things can we do otherwise to
Speaker 4: take care of our mental health. So the number one
Speaker 4: one thing that I think that people overlook in terms
Speaker 4: of taking care of their mental health is sleep. So
Speaker 4: I think many of us are really not getting enough sleep,
Speaker 4: or if we are getting sleep, it's not restorative, and
Speaker 4: so paying attention to getting six to eight hours of
Speaker 4: quality sleep every night can do.
Speaker 1: Wonders for your mental health.
Speaker 4: So having a good sleep hygiene routine, trying to go
Speaker 4: to bed at the same time every night, waking up
Speaker 4: at the same time in the morning, even on the weekends,
Speaker 4: even though I know that's hard, but really getting your
Speaker 4: body into that routine I think can really really be good.
Speaker 4: Physical activity is also really good for our mental health.
Speaker 4: So there's all this research that talks about the endorphins
Speaker 4: and the serotonin that we really experience and like get
Speaker 4: a boost from when we are just even doing light
Speaker 4: physical activity. So just going for a walk or you know,
Speaker 4: kind of brisk walk in your neighborhood or my favorite,
Speaker 4: which is hula hooping in the middle of my kitchen, Like,
Speaker 4: any kind of physical activity is really good for your
Speaker 4: mental health. And then making sure that we are intentional
Speaker 4: about our social connection. So isolation and loneliness it's a
Speaker 4: really big hindrance to our mental health, and so making
Speaker 4: sure that we're staying connected to people, that we're letting
Speaker 4: people know how we're doing, is a great way to
Speaker 4: protect your mental health. Well to your point, sisterhood, friendship,
Speaker 4: community can be completely life changing, and you wrote a
Speaker 4: book all about that, Sisterhood Heals, a love letter to
Speaker 4: Black women and the transformative nature of sisterhood. What did
Speaker 4: you discover as you were writing that book. I discovered
Speaker 4: just how important black women have been to my life
Speaker 4: and how important we typically are into each other's lives, right,
Speaker 4: like in the book is really a celebration of who
Speaker 4: we are to one another, but also an invitation to
Speaker 4: how we can do that even better. I think, if
Speaker 4: anything else that we have learned through the pandemic is
Speaker 4: that the only way to get through difficult times is together.
Speaker 4: And so the book is really a guide to how
Speaker 4: we can do a better job of showing up for
Speaker 4: one another.
Speaker 1: Someone the other day was asking me about this quote
Speaker 1: that I said, joy is a suit power, And the
Speaker 1: only way that I could think to explain it was
Speaker 1: really in the context of black women and the black
Speaker 1: women who raised me, and you know, seeing my auntie
Speaker 1: who's still out a smile on her face even though
Speaker 1: she was dealing with cancer, or my mom hosting these
Speaker 1: magical gatherings and these like powerful times of connection even
Speaker 1: though she was supporting my dad through his really difficult
Speaker 1: health struggles. What does that phrase joy as a superpower
Speaker 1: mean to you?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing those examples, and I think
Speaker 4: joy is the thing that allows us to get through
Speaker 4: the more difficult times right now when the world feels
Speaker 4: so difficult, so many tragedies, so much stress, and we
Speaker 4: can feel guilty about even trying to connect with joy
Speaker 4: because it feels like that doesn't feel like a good
Speaker 4: thing to do when so many bad things are happening.
Speaker 4: But joy is really what allows you to continue to
Speaker 4: show up for those times. It's what is restorative, it's
Speaker 4: what refused us, and it's really important for us stay
Speaker 4: connected to joyful things even despite difficult things happening in
Speaker 4: the background. And so I think that that is another
Speaker 4: mental health practice that we can, you know, incorporate into
Speaker 4: our lives is to stay connected to joy and be
Speaker 4: intentional about creating joyful experiences, even if it is just
Speaker 4: going for a walk on the weekend or having a
Speaker 4: nice couple of hot chalk with like, whatever those little
Speaker 4: things are for you, making sure that you're adding that
Speaker 4: to your schedule.
Speaker 1: I want to end our conversation, doctor Joy by talking
Speaker 1: about the results of therapy, because it's often hard to
Speaker 1: predict how therapy is going to change us. I mean,
Speaker 1: sometimes people make big life changes, they blow up their
Speaker 1: lives after having these realizations and discoveries and therapy. And
Speaker 1: then another side effect or byproduct of therapy that we
Speaker 1: don't often talk about is that healing itself can be isolating.
Speaker 1: Sometimes those realizations and revelations that you have in therapy
Speaker 1: are going to cause you to take action and perhaps
Speaker 1: isolate yourself from people in your life for are toxic
Speaker 1: and who are not a part of your healing. Can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what we can expect
Speaker 1: from therapy, how it's going to change us. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I feel like you said a mouthful.
Speaker 4: There's a moone because you're right, Like, sometimes we learn
Speaker 4: things about ourselves about how our relationships to other people
Speaker 4: actually are not in the best interests of our mental health,
Speaker 4: and so we decide to maybe put some distance there.
Speaker 4: But it also opens up your capacity to connect with
Speaker 4: other people who may be a better fit for you.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: It also allows you to develop a different kind of
Speaker 4: support system that actually helps you to thrive as opposed
Speaker 4: to limits your possibility. So I think that it can
Speaker 4: mean that you are leaving some things behind, but it
Speaker 4: also means that you are opening the door for lots
Speaker 4: of incredible things.
Speaker 1: But it can be painful, Like I.
Speaker 4: Don't want to kind of override this idea that it
Speaker 4: can be really difficult to kind of tear down all
Speaker 4: these pieces that maybe are familiar, which is why many
Speaker 4: of us stay there because they're familiar, even if they
Speaker 4: are not the healthiest for us. And it can be
Speaker 4: differ to create space for something that is new, even
Speaker 4: if it is healthier. And so part of what therapy
Speaker 4: will be is allowing you to build the resources and
Speaker 4: build the support to support this life that is on
Speaker 4: the other side of therapy. And so typically when you're
Speaker 4: working with your therapist, they are not going to take
Speaker 4: something away from you without giving you something to replace it.
Speaker 4: And so that's what therapy really is. It's about you
Speaker 4: having a better idea of the patterns that you find
Speaker 4: yourself in, as it relates to behaviors, as it relates
Speaker 4: to relationships, and then realizing and choosing to do something different.
Speaker 1: How do we break those patterns? That's a million dollar question, right,
Speaker 1: it really is.
Speaker 4: And I think the first part is recognizing the patterns, right,
Speaker 4: like when you realize, like, oh, I keep dating the
Speaker 4: same person even though they look very different, they come
Speaker 4: from very different places. Like they're typically patterns that we
Speaker 4: fall into in our lives, and sometimes we can't see
Speaker 4: them because we're too close to it. And so I
Speaker 4: think the first step is recognizing when you've gotten yourself
Speaker 4: into a pattern and then also understanding like how that
Speaker 4: pattern develops. And so for a lot of us, I
Speaker 4: think it's some childhood stuff, right, Like it is something
Speaker 4: that we're trying to work through from our childhood, but
Speaker 4: we're working it out in real time with other people
Speaker 4: in our lives, and so therapy really helps you to
Speaker 4: recognize the pattern, understand why it's happening, and then put
Speaker 4: some other things in place so that you don't keep
Speaker 4: repeating that pattern.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you a personal question, where are you
Speaker 1: in your healing journey? Because whenever I see or meet
Speaker 1: a therapist, I'm like, oh, they're healed. They got to
Speaker 1: figure out they graduated, they graduated.
Speaker 4: Or absolutely not, absolutely not someone. So I think, you know,
Speaker 4: most therapists who are self aware also have their own therapists.
Speaker 4: So on Tuesdays at two o'clock, I am talking in
Speaker 4: the virtual zoom room with my own therapist because I
Speaker 4: think you realize, like every new phase of my life,
Speaker 4: I have realized I've needed an additional level of support.
Speaker 4: You know. I think in grad school, like I had
Speaker 4: like lots of imposter syndrome, and so I was talking
Speaker 4: to my therapist about that, and recently entrepreneurship and like
Speaker 4: writing the book, and like all of that has unlocked
Speaker 4: all of these other like insecurities and like worries that
Speaker 4: I didn't have language for before because they weren't things
Speaker 4: that I was doing. And I'm the mother of two
Speaker 4: small boys eight and ten year olds, and so being
Speaker 4: a mother and like all the challenges they have as
Speaker 4: they grow throughout their life also unlocks of these other
Speaker 4: things for me, and so I find that as I
Speaker 4: grow in life, as I you know, transition in into
Speaker 4: different roles, I need different levels of support. So I'm
Speaker 4: not at all one hundred percent healed, nor is any
Speaker 4: of us.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: Doctor Joy, thank you so much for sharing the bright
Speaker 1: side of therapy with us today. On the bright side,
Speaker 1: You're welcome. This has been a pleasure. Doctor Joy Harden
Speaker 1: Bradford is a licensed psychologist, speaker, and the host of
Speaker 1: the podcast Therapy for Black Girls, as well as the
Speaker 1: author of Sisterhood Heals, The Transformative Power of Healing in Community.
Speaker 3: That's it for today's show.
Speaker 2: Tomorrow, we're keeping the mental health conversation going with Anna
Speaker 2: Marie Tenler. She's the author of the New York Times
Speaker 2: bestseller men have called her crazy. Thank you to our
Speaker 2: partners at Coligard, the one of a kind way to
Speaker 2: screen for colon cancer in the privacy and comfort of
Speaker 2: your own home. Talk to your doctor or healthcare provider,
Speaker 2: or go to coliguard dot com slash podcast to see
Speaker 2: if you are eligible to order online. If you're forty
Speaker 2: five or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider.
Speaker 3: About screening for colon cancer. With Coli Guard.
Speaker 2: You can also request a col of Guard prescription today
Speaker 2: at coliguard dot com.
Speaker 1: Slash podcast, join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side
Speaker 1: and connect with us on social media at Hello Sunshine
Speaker 1: on Instagram and at The bright Side Pod on TikTok oh,
Speaker 1: and feel free to tag us at Simone Boyce and
Speaker 1: at Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.