WEBVTT - INTERVIEW: Jonathan Karl Talks New Book 'Retribution', Trump Administration, Free Speech, Biden + More 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:00.720 Don't know. 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:04.920 Every day a waygo click up the Breakfast Club. 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:06.600 Finish, y'all done? 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:07.240 Morning. 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:11.119 Everybody is DJ Envy Jess Hilarious, Chelamage the guy. We 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.640 are to breakfast Club, law l the Roses here as well, 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.560 and we got a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.320 he has a new book, Retribution from Donald Trump and 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.000 the Campaign that changed America. 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:22.520 John Call, Ladies and gentlemen. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:23.800 Hey, thanks for having me. 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:24.400 How would you fail? 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:25.400 How are you? 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:27.440 I'm doing it all right, I'm doing it right, crazy times. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.200 This is your fourth book on Trump? 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:31.160 Yeah, you like jobbing yourself crazy? 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:31.400 Huh? 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:35.480 Oh my god. I I wrote one almost six years ago, 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:36.879 and I thought that would be the only one. But 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:42.000 this is fifteen hundred pages on this stuff. But you know, 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.840 I mean I felt like I was watching history unfold 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:47.640 and I saw people trying to rewrite the history as 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.680 it was happening. And that's why I've you know, I've 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:52.240 poured my heart and soul into these books. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.520 Well feels different about this, this this face, this era 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:56.000 of Trump. 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:00.800 If anything, if it does feel different, I mean it does. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.000 I mean, I think what's what we're seeing now is 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.760 as suggested by the subtitle of this book, It's changing 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:12.240 in America. His first term was chaotic. I mean, the 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.759 attention of the world was on the White House. There 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.000 was all this controversy swirling. But you know, he left 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.200 and it was done. I mean there was nothing, no 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.759 real lasting impact. I mean, now look what he's doing. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.520 And symbolically you could look at like tearing down the 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.679 East Wing, you know, changing paving over the Rose Garden. 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.319 He's changing the physical layout of the White House. But 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:35.679 what our country is changing, I mean the use of 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.480 executive power. You have a president that's shown you can 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:43.600 just basically ignore Congress, get into the precipice of ignoring 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.720 the courts. We're in a totally different phase, I think. 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.800 I think the first term was more of to see 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:51.640 how far or what he could get away with. 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:53.960 And then when he came back, he just started. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.680 I mean he started at first day desk signing all 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.240 types of part is, signing things into play immediately. 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.080 So I think the first time was let me see 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:01.840 what I can get away with. 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.240 Yeah, and you know, he he had all these people 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.840 around him in the in the first firm, who had credentials. 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:10.640 You know, he felt like he almost like trophies on 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.720 a wall his cabinet. You had the four star marine generals, 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.200 you had the CEO of Excellent Mobile, you had the 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.520 retired judge and senator he put in charge of the 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.240 of the Justice Department, and every one of those people. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.480 You know, you could say, well, you know, Trump has 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.800 no experience in the government, but they do. And he 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:31.520 felt betrayed by all of them. They all tried to 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.520 keep him, to a degree in line. And now that 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:36.200 they're all gone, they're all gone. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.040 You know, you begin the book with an admission, you 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.800 say you believe that Donald trump come back was highly unlikely. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.400 Like what was the moment or series of moments in 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.520 your reporting when you're when you're thinking shifted. 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.240 You know, the It wasn't really until pretty close to 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.280 the election, when I saw how the Kamala Harris campaign 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:00.040 was approaching it, and I saw their almost desperation to 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.240 have another debate with Donald Trump. I saw her go 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.200 on Fox News after resisting all kinds of interviews, something 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.559 you had said she should have done a long time ago. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:13.880 And I report in the book how she actually her 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.640 campaign actually approached Fox and asked them if they would 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.000 host a debate. This is in the end, you know, 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.320 in October and Trump and Fox said sure, but Trump 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.280 had no interest in doing it again. And that's where 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.639 I saw. She wouldn't have been doing that if they 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.640 didn't see that she was likely to lose. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.600 When you realized that not only was the comeback possible, 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:36.800 but that the campaign was built around this idea of 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.680 retrobution in a structural way, when did you realize that? 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.800 Really early on? I mean I I was there in 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.720 mar A Lago when he announced his campaign shortly after 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.840 the midterms in twenty twenty two. It puttered along, It 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.360 was nothing. It was you know, Ron DeSantis was leading 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:55.800 in the polls, if you remember, double digits by the 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:57.760 end of twenty twenty two. And then he gave this 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:02.680 speech at Sea Pack where he used that line. You know, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:05.920 he said, I told you I am your voice in 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.920 twenty sixteen. Now I tell you I am your retribution. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.160 And that gave his his campaign this energy. And then 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.159 you had the the the indictments coming in. You had 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.640 he started his campaign. The first rally of his campaign 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.000 was it Waco, Texas. I mean, I wrote a book 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.679 like thirty years ago this December, I wrote a book 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.000 called The Right to bear arms, the rise of America's 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.320 new militias, about the right wing militia groups, Timothy McVeigh 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.840 and all of that, and you know, the Waco, Texas 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.560 was the rallying cry for those people. It was as 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.200 the symbol of like the government out of control and 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.800 coming after you. And now Trump is going to Waco. 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.440 So I saw and then sitting through that trial in 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.359 New York, the hush money trial, and I could just 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.839 see the seething resentment that he had that he had 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.720 to go to that court room every day, four days 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.360 a week. You've been down, there's one hundred centers. He 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:05.920 is a dingy dark you know, dirty. I mean I 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.400 described when I because I went down and sat through 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.960 several days down there, and you go through the front 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.680 door of the courthouse. The first thing I notice is 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.720 this big rat traps inside, you know, I mean, And 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.719 and he's got to be there, and he can't leave 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.440 even like during the lunch breaks. He's got to be 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.120 there in some dark, cold room. And he just you 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.080 could see he was plotting, I am going to get 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.160 even with all of these people if I get back 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:29.679 into power. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.280 Do you feel like there will ever actually be like 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.479 retribution that he thinks because there's always something new that 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.600 he feels like he has to like get back. I mean, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:40.599 he's getting people back, but like, is there a place 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:42.120 where it stops, Like where he gets to the point 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.400 where he's like, yo, I didn't got yaut and did enough? 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:46.600 No? No, no, I mean you think, first of all, 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.240 you would think that the guy he got back to 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.520 the White House and he won, you would think that 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.680 maybe at that point you'd be like, Okay, you know, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.839 I've proved everybody wrong. I'm here, I'm in power again. No, 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.479 he's going to keep going. And here's the thing. It's 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.840 not just political opponents. It's not just the Democrats, it's 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.719 not just the prosecutors. It's not just the people that 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.200 literally went after him. I think that the thing that 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:15.560 motivates him the most is getting back at Republicans who 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.520 he believes didn't sufficiently support him. Really yeah, I mean yeah. 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.400 The other day Steve Bannon said something. Steve Bannon said 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.880 that that Bill Barr belongs in prison. Bill Barr. I mean, 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.800 this is like, you know, and his bars sin was 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.039 that he didn't back Trump on the efforts to overthrow 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.640 the twenty twenty election. And you know, I mean, so 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.159 his first motivation, that the beginning of the retribution campaign 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.559 actually begins in the days after he leaves the White House, 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.320 he goes to mar A Lago. He's really seen as 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.159 a pria even by most of the Republican leadership. He's 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.120 banned on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all of that. 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.919 Corporations are saying they're not going to give money to 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.400 Republicans that backed him in overturning the election. And he's 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:05.960 in a very dark place. I mean, I described this, 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.640 you know, pretty graphically in my previous book about his 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.960 exile down there. But what is the first project he has? 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.840 His polster gives him a membo that shows him that 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.320 Liz Cheney can be beat in Wyoming, Liz Cheney who 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.240 voted to impeach him, and that is the beginning. He 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.080 is now focused on, first time, going to go after 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.840 those damn those ten Republicans that voted to impeach me 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.239 in the House. They're gone, and he defeats Liz Cheney. 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:37.400 So he you know, I mean, he expects Democrats to 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.720 be his opponents. He knows prosecutors do what prosecutors do. 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:42.520 It's those Republicans So. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.840 Is that to put fear in the team that's around 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.000 him now, to let y'all know, y'all better always go 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:48.840 along with me, because if y'all get out of line, 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:50.440 then it'll be retribution against y'all too. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.240 That's a huge factor, and it's pretty damn effective. I mean, 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:55.760 this is the other thing to talk about. What's different 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.720 from the first time. The first time you had Paul 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.720 Ryan and Mitch McConnell as the leaders in the Congress, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.560 neither one of them had any loyalty whatsoever personal loyalty 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.480 to Trump, and in fact had opposed him strongly in 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.520 the case actually in both cases in twenty sixteen in 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.720 the Republican primary. And now you have I mean, Fune 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:24.200 has a degree of independence. But like I mean, like Johnson, 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:28.160 the Speaker of the House, he's almost behaves like he's 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.760 a member of the of the Trump's staff. I mean 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.840 that the House is there to do the will of 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:34.439 the White House. 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.360 I mean, you didn't have that before when you were 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:39.680 writing this book and you spoke to a lot of people. 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.280 Would do in this book was did anybody not want 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.000 to do it or was scared to talk with you? 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:44.760 Speak with you? 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.080 Because they said he might come back for me. 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.760 You definitely, It's always always and yet you know, and 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.960 what I really tried to do with this book was 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.080 to get people who would talk to me on the record. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.959 And I succeeded in some of the big you know, 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.160 some of the key players I mentioned Steve Bannon, I 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.920 mean hours of conversations with this guy. Bobby Kennedy was 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.599 somebody I was talking to throughout the campaign. On the 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.120 other side, Hunter Biden like really opened up to me. 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.200 And what I did with with with some of these 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.240 people is I said, Okay, talk to me, tell me 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.160 the story. I am not this is for a book. 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.720 It's not going to affect anything. Just talk to me, 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.559 and it's for history. And that kind of draws them out. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.080 But there are and then there were some people that 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:31.560 just didn't want to don't want to be seen with 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.480 me or with a reporter because then they might be like, aha, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:37.440 he saw this. Like you know, there was a Todd 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.400 blanche you know now obviously at the Justice Department, but 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.960 was the lead on his defense cases during the transition. 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.199 Somebody took a picture of him meeting with a CNN 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.360 reporter and like put it all out of one of 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.319 the is if this was like proof he's not sufficiently 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:54.360 on the team. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.320 I saw Hunter Biden told you that he was really 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.839 upset when Obama led Biden off the state in that 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.360 viral video. So when you are talking to people about 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.880 these moments, that will bring these moments back up again, 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:08.400 Like he's upset it when viral in the first place, 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:09.960 He's upset Obama did it. But then he sits down 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:11.360 and talks to you, which brings it back. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.559 Up again, right, exactly what is. 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:15.600 The conversation I guess after the book comes out and 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.640 people pick that up because that was the main folks 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:18.640 of the news conversation. 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:20.000 Now you're seeing it again exactly. 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:21.720 So does Hunter Biden then call you back and be 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.000 like we need to do another interview where like how 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.280 do you handle the not the backlash, but the conversation 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:27.800 that comes back up because of your book from these 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:28.720 people that you sit down with. 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.640 By the way, that was such an interesting conversation with 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.640 Hunter Biden. So I talked to him over the phone 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:36.960 a lot during the course of the campaign, including when 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:39.080 you know there was that big effort to get his 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:40.840 father to drop out, and he was like one of 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.880 the few people actually talking to President Biden every day. 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.240 I mean even like his top aides were, you know, 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.720 many of them were isolated. I mean the chief of staff, 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.800 Jeff Science. When Biden had the final meeting where he 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.800 decides he's not going on again, the chief of Staff's 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.240 not even there. He's not even part of the meeting. 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.199 He gets called later, by the way, I decided I'm 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.800 not going to run. But Hunter was so passionate in 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.560 his anger towards Obama. He said he was there at 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.760 that fundraiser, went for that viral moment, and he wanted 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.640 to jump up on the stage and say, you don't 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.280 touch the President of the United States. And then he 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.840 also is angry about the George Clooney op ed, which 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:22.560 he blames Obama for. He's also saying, I guess we 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.440 just have it. We Biden's have a different idea of 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:26.600 what it means to be a friend. 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:28.959 So you're mad at George Clooney for telling the truth, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:30.720 shouldn't you be kind of mad at your father for 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.560 running again for a second term. He probably wasn't gonna 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:34.920 be in the best condition to. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:36.320 And then throws Obama in the mix. 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:37.439 Obama's not Obama. 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.480 Yeah, yeah, Obama, who's not didn't write the thing. 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:41.439 So Obamas, you just got him wandering around the stage. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:47.600 I mean, I mean it is first of all, a 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.439 few of those people really close and tight around Obama 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:55.040 are I mean Biden are still absolutely convinced that he 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.400 could have won and that this was a tragedy that 0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:59.640 the Democrats forced him out. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.800 I mean, we should never talk through those people that 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.200 I'm not even joking. We should leave those people in 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:05.920 the past like they should be out the pastors. 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:11.560 Just like, here's the thing, I this sometimes the biggest 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:17.000 news and is what didn't happen. The most consequential decision 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:20.760 of Joe Biden's life professional life was the decision to 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.640 run again. I mean it the race is virtually everything 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:30.480 that he did as president. And they never had a 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.080 meeting on it. They never sat down and said, what 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.440 are the pros and cons running again? Not running again? 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.560 What does it look like? I mean, Hunter himself said, 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.880 the machinery just went. We never really discussed should we 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.320 And then that's that is the biggest decision. 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.160 That's one of the biggest you know, that's one of 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.040 the most glaring things from the Vice President's BOK one 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:48.800 hundred and seven days that. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.040 I feel like people didn't discuss enough. 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.800 When she said that the Bidy shouldn't have been able 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:53.800 to make that decision alone. 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:55.360 I think I'm para for them a little bit. 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:57.840 It was reckless for him to make that decision on 0:12:57.840 --> 0:12:59.480 his own, And I'm like, why would that ever be 0:12:59.520 --> 0:12:59.920 a decision? 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:01.079 Let him make one? 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.120 Yeah, and all the you know, it's not just the 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.360 it's not just the party. It's not just the White 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.880 House leadership, the vice president. It's the whole democratic apparatus. 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.120 I mean, nobody going in and saying, wait a minute, 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:14.120 let's think about this. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.400 Yeah, And I you know, that's to me, that's a 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:18.760 whole other book. But at some point somebody's gonna have 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.400 to sit down and talk about how that decision and 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.320 the decision to hire Merrit Garland is why we ended 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:25.760 up where we currently. 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:26.040 Are right now. 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:27.679 Yeah. 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.480 And in the book, you describe how a new team 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:32.720 was formed around Trump with the goal of a of 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:33.720 a new world order. 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:34.440 Can you walk us. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.400 Through like one or two behind the scenes organizational, our 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.960 strategic decisions that reveal how his team, how this team 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:42.880 operated differently than previous politically. 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.280 Well, I spent a great deal of time describing what 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.400 was actually happening at mar A Lago. And if you remember, 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:54.160 there was some political commentary at the time saying, man, Trump, 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.800 this time arounds got it more together. There's less drama 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.120 surrounding the transition. They're putting out their nominees and a 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:05.439 quicker pace. It I mean no, uh, it was. It 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:10.560 was total chaos. Yes, you had, you had you, I 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:16.480 mean you had. The campaign transition office was actually a 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.880 couple miles away in West Palm Beach where the campaign 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.640 it was the old campaign office became the transition office. 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.840 Mar A Lague was actually a pretty small place. There's 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:30.440 only one office, which is Trump's office. And but so 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.280 you had you had all these transition people working two 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.720 miles away, but none of it mattered. They were preparing 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.400 lists and interviewing potential candidates and and doing their vetting. 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.360 And then it was like Trump deciding on his own 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.400 and surprising the people that were running his transition. So 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:53.040 you know, Pete Hegseth I described the mar A Laga. 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.400 There's a place called the living room. It's really the lobby, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.440 and people would go and wait for their their meetings, 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.640 either with Lutnik and the transition team or upstairs to 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.320 go and have their big meeting with Trump. And there's 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.560 a scene where there's a candidate for attorney general sitting 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.320 on the couch next to a candidate for for Energy secretary. 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.120 You know, Matt Gates is running around. He's not even 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.840 considered an attorney general candidate. He's just considered, you know, 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.080 a guy that's helping out. And Pete Hegseth shows up 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.400 and they all think he's there to interview Trump because 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.080 he's the Fox weekend guy. And so Trump didn't even 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.360 like talk to his like people about this. It was like, 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.520 Pete's the man, We'll just do him. So, you know, 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:44.280 it's it's really the way it was all centered around 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:48.000 Trump and and and and his whim and what he wanted. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:53.920 It was, you know, you didn't have anybody and actually, 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:55.840 let me let me back up a second. The one 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.000 thing that is very different is that, first of all, 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:01.800 he knew his way around, so he didn't think he 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.760 needed to rely on anybody for advice. But you also 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.840 had some of the people that had been with him 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.080 all along had been preparing for what they would do 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.120 if he got back into office. Stephen Miller started a 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.640 group called America First Legal, and they'd worked for three 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:22.680 plus years thinking about executive orders that they would do 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.240 if Trump got back in preparing drafts. 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:25.800 One of these things. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.800 This even this predates Project twenty twenty five, but yeah, 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.880 absolutely project twenty twenty five. So they were ready with 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.280 an agenda, and it's ultimately Trump's agenda, but they were 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.840 ready with here's the roadmap. Here is how you're really 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:39.320 going to do it. 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.720 What surprises you most about how I guess American presidential 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.920 campaigns and governance, Yeah, are changing. 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.640 It's the absolute power that we're seeing vested in the executive. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.200 I mean, we have a system of checks and balances 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.320 in this country. You know, it's I mean, that's the idea. 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.440 I mean, that's a great question. Do we still have that? 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.159 It is very much putter. I mean, the House of 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.200 Representatives has just been out of session for fifty four 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.359 days and did it matter? 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:10.080 Nope? 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.720 I mean, was there anything different? To quote Bannon again, 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:16.800 he called and I don't know if he was being 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.040 complimentary or not, he called the Congress the equivalent of 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.359 the Russian Duma, which is just like, I mean, not 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.159 even a rubber stamp. You don't even need to be stamped. 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:32.399 So Trump this flurry of executive orders tariffs, I mean, 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.400 the Supreme Court case will be the most interesting thing 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.520 to watch in this term of the Supreme Court. I 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.920 mean the fact that the idea that a president can 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:44.960 come out and impose tariffs on virtually every country in 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:50.640 the world. The Constitution makes it clear that Congress controls 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.719 the power to tax and imposed duties. And I mean, 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.200 I think about my life covering politics. The debates over 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:03.560 trade are big debates. You know, NAFTA, the US Mexico 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.360 Free Trade Agreement TPP, all these things that are negotiated 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.240 and then Congress needs to ratify them and if they don't, 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.560 they don't go into effect. And Trump just holds a 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.320 press conference in the Rose Garden and suddenly you have 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:19.080 these mass tariffs. So we'll see if that gets knocked down. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.600 I mean, the Supreme Court seemed pretty damn skeptical of it, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:27.000 but you know, he has I mean pushed. It's not 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.520 enough to say push the bounds of the power of 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.080 the executive, but beyond anything we've ever seen, why do. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:34.840 We even still believe in the Supreme Court, Like the 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.000 Supreme Court had not been a legitimate institution for a 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:38.480 long time. 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:40.280 Well let's see what they do on this. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.240 We say that about every single time, but they have 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.080 proven where their loyalty lies. 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.520 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean there's no question 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:55.560 that that conservative majority has served Trump very well, especially 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.200 in terms of knocking down or freezing the rulings of 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:00.560 all those low courts. 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.440 And I think it's ridiculous when people say things about 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.399 Trump and they'd be like, you know, he's committing crimes. 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.440 Actually he's not because of the Supreme Court presidential immunity. 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.320 I mean, this was the amazing thing about this election 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:18.600 is that for Trump himself, he faced like two possible outcomes. 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:21.679 He loses and he might go to prison. I mean, 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:23.840 there's a really decent chance he's gonna go to prison, 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:25.919 or he's gonna spend the rest of his life fighting 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.359 to stay out of prison. Or he wins. He doesn't 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.320 just become president again, he becomes the most powerful president 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.119